I've read the commentaries, thought about the possible reasons for it's inclusion in the tradition, and still cannot find a satisfactory explanation as to why...
Jim West
jwest@...
Jun 1, 2004 9:31 pm
9757
... Perhaps you'd first like to tell us which of the reasons given by commentators you find are "unsatisfactory". Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)...
Jeffrey B. Gibson
jgibson000@...
Jun 1, 2004 9:33 pm
9758
... You missed the point- i'm not interested in what the commentaries say precisely because NONE of their answers are satisfactory. That's why I asked you...
Jim West
jwest@...
Jun 1, 2004 9:51 pm
9759
... No I haven't missed the point. I simply didn't want to re invent the wheel, especially if the answers to be given by "us" are those given by commentators....
Jeffrey B. Gibson
jgibson000@...
Jun 1, 2004 9:59 pm
9760
... OK- I'll try it this way. Pretend that no commentary has ever been written and it is your task to comment, for the first time, on the meaning of Jesus' ...
Jim West
jwest@...
Jun 1, 2004 10:05 pm
9761
... This might be a fair request if you hadn't already stated that you found every answer that you are aware of unsatisfactory. So I don't think it...
Jeffrey B. Gibson
jgibson000@...
Jun 1, 2004 10:12 pm
9762
Jim, I can think of two reasons the baptism of Jesus would be included in the tradition. First, that it happened. The very fact that it is inexplicable and...
Chuck Jones
chuckjonez@...
Jun 1, 2004 10:33 pm
9763
Jim, Here is my two cents, more or less off the top of my head: The answer is to be found in the polemic debates of the second century. The usurping of the...
Stuart Waugh
stuartwaugh@...
Jun 1, 2004 10:49 pm
9764
My point of view : ** Baptism was a rite of first christians ** It was common to another religious group from which it was inspired (the group of John's...
Emmanuel Fritsch
emmanuel.fritsch@...
Jun 2, 2004 11:50 am
9765
I have not developed this to any real degree, but I think it's not impossible that some early Christians read the accounts of Jesus' baptism with Paul's...
John C. Poirier
poirier@...
Jun 2, 2004 12:57 pm
9766
Very briefly: I think Mark is concerned about apostasty during a period of persecution and portrays Jesus (in contrast to Peter) as a model for Christian...
Ken Olson
kaolson@...
Jun 2, 2004 1:02 pm
9767
Very briefly: I think Mark is concerned about apostasty during a period of persecution and portrays Jesus (in contrast to Peter) as a model for Christian...
Ken Olson
kaolson@...
Jun 2, 2004 4:27 pm
9768
Emmanuel, I did not say that I thought the baptism concept was late. To the contrary I believe it is amongst the earliest, perhaps even pre-Christian,...
Stuart Waugh
stuartwaugh@...
Jun 2, 2004 5:42 pm
9769
A little input from a "silent partner" ... what if Jesus was not baptised at all but this information was added/invented to give authenticity to a new faith?...
SRose63911@...
Jun 2, 2004 5:59 pm
9770
... I think, first, that the notion that the writers of the Gospel thought of themselves as the purveyors of a new religion is mistaken. They saw themselves...
Jim West
jwest@...
Jun 2, 2004 6:39 pm
9771
Sue wrote: A little input from a "silent partner" ... what if Jesus was not baptised at all but this information was added/invented to give authenticity to a...
Anthony Buglass
tonybuglass@...
Jun 2, 2004 8:12 pm
9772
... Sorry, I know it is very popular, but I don't buy the argument from embarrassment at all, and never have found it convincing. It presupposes that there was...
Maluflen@...
Jun 2, 2004 8:41 pm
9773
... Another positive element would be the presence of constituted theology in Paul, particularly theological or liturgical hymns. Are there anyone ? I would ...
Emmanuel Fritsch
emmanuel.fritsch@...
Jun 3, 2004 5:14 pm
9774
... Sorry : when I say "the baptism", I was thinking "baptism narratives". ... If it is just a concept, it is a strange one. If Christians would have inveted...
Emmanuel Fritsch
emmanuel.fritsch@...
Jun 3, 2004 5:16 pm
9775
... The argument of embarrassement is convincing because evangelists looks embarrassed. About the compulsion : -- if Jesus would have been baptised by John,...
Emmanuel Fritsch
emmanuel.fritsch@...
Jun 3, 2004 5:25 pm
9776
In a message dated 6/1/2004 6:44:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Are you claiming, then, that Luke is the earliest Gospel? Chuck Schwartz St. Joan of Arc ...
Fathchuck@...
Jun 3, 2004 6:13 pm
9777
Emmanuel, Again you seem to mistake what I say slightly then draw false conclusions from this. Lets get this straight. My argument is: 1) Baptism predates...
Stuart Waugh
stuartwaugh@...
Jun 3, 2004 7:25 pm
9778
... This is probably the sticking point. If you can persuade on this one, it's all down hill from there. Stephen Carlson -- Stephen C. Carlson, ...
Stephen C. Carlson
scarlson@...
Jun 3, 2004 7:39 pm
9779
Stephen, LOL Yup, that is the issue. But I think people have trouble dealing with theological arguments because they insist the Synoptics were done in a single...
Stuart Waugh
stuartwaugh@...
Jun 3, 2004 7:57 pm
9780
Stephen, Actually Luke's account being most primitive is only part of the argument. The issue of Matthew's account being intruded upon by 2nd century Orthodox...
Stuart Waugh
stuartwaugh@...
Jun 3, 2004 8:42 pm
9781
There is some language data to add to the discussion. ... but it is long) . . . ... 42:1< Luke 3:21-22 is a Lucan rewrite. (this could be of a non-canonical...
Randall Buth
ButhFam@...
Jun 4, 2004 9:21 am
9782
I have followed this discussion with some interest. Here is my problem: I am suspicious of theological development problems. Why could not various approaches...
Matson, Mark (Academic)
MAMatson@...
Jun 4, 2004 12:30 pm
9783
With apologies for not having time to get involved too much in this discussion. I am working under some deadlines, so I can't get too engage. However, I did...
R. Steven Notley
notley@...
Jun 4, 2004 1:27 pm
9784
In a message dated 6/3/2004 4:38:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, stuartwaugh@... writes: << Actually Luke's account being most primitive is only part of the...
Maluflen@...
Jun 4, 2004 1:37 pm
9785
Dear Jim West, On June 1 you wrote: <<<I've read the commentaries, thought about the possible reasons for it's inclusion in the tradition, and still cannot...
