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#6301 From: gabriel ricard <deep_in_liquid_indigo@...>
Date: Mon May 4, 2009 12:30 am
Subject: Re: Why the Plath Legacy Lives
deep_in_liqu...
Online Now Online Now
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Absolutely fascinating. It's strange to think that it's been almost fifty years.

Thanks for sharing this. It was surprisingly insightful on most fronts. I was particularly intrigued by Joyce Carol Oates comments. I also like that they brought in a fairly wide range of perspectives, male, female, literature, academia, etc.

Nice.

gabriel

see you space cowboy

--- On Wed, 3/25/09, S. Dall <sdall49@...> wrote:

From: S. Dall <sdall49@...>
Subject: [sylviaplath] Why the Plath Legacy Lives
To: sylviaplath@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 12:07 AM

The New York Times pieces are not as reflective as one might have wished, but an interesting tribute nonetheless. -- Stephanie D.


http://roomfordebat e.blogs.nytimes. com/2009/ 03/24/why- the-plath- legacy-lives/


Why the Plath Legacy Lives

Sylvia Plath(Photo: Rollie McKenna) Sylvia Plath in 1959.
It has been 46 years since Sylvia Plath gassed herself to death in her kitchen, and it was worldwide news when her daughter Frieda Hughes announced that Plath’s 47-year-old son, Nicholas Hughes, a fisheries biologist in Alaska, killed himself last week.
Why, of all the stories of creative, brilliant people who have suffered from fatal depressions, does Plath s tragic legacy resonate so widely? Here, Joyce Carol Oates, Peter D. Kramer, Erica Jong, Andrew Solomon and Elaine Showalter offer their thoughts.

Her Reputation Rises, as Others Fade

Joyce Carol Oates
Joyce Carol Oates, the Roger S. Berlind Distinguished Professor of Humanities at Princeton University, is the author, most recently, of “Dear Husband,” a story collection.
The suicide of Sylvia Plath was and is obviously of enormous cultural significance because Plath was a brilliant poet — at the time of her death she was already considered a very important poet and since her death, her reputation has risen continuously while others who were her gifted contemporaries — Anne Sexton, John Berryman, even the much-acclaimed Robert Lowell — appear to have faded.
Also, Plath wrote specifically about suicide — her own suicide, much-meditated and plotted — and her much-publicized ill treatment at the hands of her husband Ted Hughes made her into a feminist martyr of a kind. (Though Plath herself was contemptuous of feminism and of most other women.) It is probably not the case that “creative” people commit suicide to a degree beyond that of the general population but this is the popular stereotype.
It is known that a suicide in a family may precipitate subsequent suicides in the family; one can surmise that for the children or relatives of suicides, especially those who are prominent and whose suicides have been much dramatized, self-destruction provides an “exit” that seems ready-made, as it would not be for others. (I cannot comment on Plath’s and Hughes’s son, because I don’t know his personal history.)
Ernest Hemingway, who committed suicide at the age of 62, has the father in his short story “Indian Camp” offer an explanation of an Indian’s suicide — “Maybe he just couldn’t take it any longer.” A young person associated with both Plath and Hughes would have had to contend with the literary-journalist’s equivalent of Tabloid Hell; maybe he couldn’t take it any longer. (The kindest response would be a sympathetic silence on the part of the media.)

Serve the Sufferers

Peter D. Kramer
Peter D. Kramer is the author of “Against Depression.”
Suicide is humbling for us, the observers. In the case of Sylvia Plath, we have all the narrative information anyone could wish: her prose fiction, her poetry, her correspondence, her journals, and then the Husband’s, too.
With all this testimony — brave, generous, self-aware, subtle, forceful — we do not know. Does Ted drive her to it, and his next wife as well? Or is it progressive deterioration of the brain? (Now that we’re better at examining them, we can say that the brains of suicides look very bad.) Both, is the sophisticated conclusion, environment and genes, social circumstance and biology, cognition and animal drive — which is to conclude vaguely indeed.
“Of course there are two,” Plath writes in her poem “Death and Co.,” meaning the wife and the husband — but now one might think of the mother and the child. Two turns out to be a low estimate.
What we know most about is the horror of suicide, for the ag ent, for the survivors. Advocates who speak on these matters say that death from suicide is about as frequent as death from the common cancers — only a bit rarer than death from breast cancer, for example — but that while there are breast cancer centers, for treatment, for prevention, for research, at many hospitals, there are suicide centers at almost none. Tonight, that mundane observation seems to me as thoughtful a response as any to these losses. As doctors, given copious testimony, we should be able to comment with more wisdom; as a culture, we should to be able to serve sufferers better.

An Exemplar of Inexorable Fate

Erica Jong
Erica Jong is the author, most recently, of ”Love Comes First,” her seventh collection of poems.
Star-crossed lovers always fascinate, and Sylvia Plath and Ted Hughes were surely star-crossed. Their attraction was fierce and they both chronicled it with brilliance. Sylvia Plath wrote powerfully of her attraction to suicide, then killed herself. Ted Hughes was also no slouch when it came to the pull of mortality (witness his book, “Crow”).
We are often drawn to characters who seem to be exemplars of the inexorability of fate, of destiny. And they were such. In their lives, in their work, they seemed to exp ress the darkest workings of the unconscious.
People born to do that are not often steady parents. And we know that suicidal parents often produce suicidal children. I knew Ted a little, did not know Sylvia, but was very sad to hear of their son’s death.
The legend of tragic, fated lovers seldom includes happy children.

The Lure of a Birthright

Andrew Solomon
Andrew Solomon is the author, most recently, of “The Noonday Demon: An Atlas of Depression” and of the forthcoming “A Dozen Kinds of Love: Raising Challenging Children.”
Suicide runs in families. It’s not entirely clear to what extent this is a genetic predisposition, and to what extent having a parent who has killed himself or herself simply makes the option feel more readily available, though both are certainly true.
Suicide is the end point of many depressions, but there are plenty of people who, though acutely depressed, do not become suicidal. Committing suicide requires a mix of depression and impulsivity; so much of depression is passive and meek and deactivating. The pain may be intolerable, but the prospect of doing anything as deliberate as suicide is overwhelming.
The model of the literary suicide, of the writer whose thrall to craft is either the consequence or=2 0the cause of most dire depression, is a frequent one; David Foster Wallace is the latest link in this sorry chain. Sylvia Plath wrote about depression so explicitly and so beautifully in “The Bell Jar,” where she described how:
I couldn’t get myself to react. I felt very still and very empty, the way the eye of a tornado must feel, moving dully along in the middle of the surrounding hullabaloo.
For anyone who has been depressed, that description rings astonishingly true. She had talent and looks and was married to a great poet, but these externals cannot assuage that eye-of-the-storm despair. For a long time, all of Plath’s work (as Virginia Woolf’s) was read through the lens of her suicide. She is in fact a remarkable poet, whose writing would warrant our attention even if she had lived her days out happily taking her children to soccer practice in suburbia.
Now her son has killed himself, after a long battle with depression. It’s sad to think that in this time of psychopharmacologic al and cognitive-behaviora l wonders, he was not able to get above his illness. I do not know what treatment he received or sought, but I do know that he had a birthright to the dull eye, and to that sadly final way of dealing with it. Parents who suffer from depression cannot help passing along that illness.
Those who commit suicide implant the idea that this is a viable option, but it seems likely that Nicholas Hughes was beset by demons he can rightly call his own. And every life that is lost to suicide is tragic, be it associated with poetry or not.

A Rare Genius

Elaine Showalter
Elaine Showalter is professor emerita of English at Princeton University and the author of “A Jury of Her Peers: American Women Writers from Anne Bradstreet to Annie Proulx.”
Sylvia Plath, who killed herself at the age of 30, was one of the great American poets of the 20th century. No other poet in English except Keats, and no American poet, produced so much enduring work in such a brief lifetime.
Plath’s ambition to become what she called “the Poetess of America” and her fierce preparation to fulfill that ambition added to the unique intensity of her life and legend. Plath’s poetry and fiction, appearing during the decades when women were demanding liberation from secondary lives, spoke to its readers with searing immediacy. Our sorrow at the waste and loss of a brilliant writer, and our anger at the restrictions and prohibitions Plath faced as a woman artist, fueled her legend.
In short, Plath was not just “talented and creative” but a rare genius. Her story will continue to compel attention for a very long while.


#6300 From: sdall49 <sdall49@...>
Date: Mon May 4, 2009 12:19 am
Subject: Re: Why the Plath Legacy Lives
sdall49@...
Send Email Send Email
 
I was wondering what had happened to this...

Can someone provide an update about list status and management?

Stephanie
--
Dall & Associates
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(916)392-0283 (office)
(916)392-0462 (fax)
(916)716-4847
On Mar 24, 2009, at 9:07:37 PM, "S. Dall" <sdall49@...> wrote:

From:"S. Dall" <sdall49@...>
Subject:[sylviaplath] Why the Plath Legacy Lives
Date:March 24, 2009 9:07:37 PM PDT
To:sylviaplath@yahoogroups.com


The New YorkTimespieces are not as reflective as one might have wished, but an interesting tribute nonetheless. -- Stephanie D.


http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/why-the-plath-legacy-lives/


Why the Plath Legacy Lives

Sylvia Plath(Photo: Rollie McKenna)Sylvia Plath in 1959.
It has been 46 years sinceSylvia Plathgassed herself to death in her kitchen, and it was worldwide news when her daughter Frieda Hughes announced that Plaths 47-year-old son, Nicholas Hughes, a fisheries biologist in Alaska,killed himself last week.
Why, of all the stories of creative, brilliant people who have suffered from fatal depressions, does Plath s tragic legacy resonate so widely? Here, Joyce Carol Oates, Peter D. Kramer, Erica Jong, Andrew Solomon and Elaine Showalter offer their thoughts.

Her Reputation Rises, as Others Fade

Joyce Carol Oates
Joyce Carol Oates, the Roger S. Berlind Distinguished Professor of Humanities at Princeton University, is theauthor,most recently, of Dear Husband, a story collection.
The suicide of Sylvia Plath was and is obviously of enormous cultural significance because Plath was a brilliant poet at the time of her death she was already considered a very important poet and since her death, her reputation has risen continuously while others who were her gifted contemporaries Anne Sexton, John Berryman, even the much-acclaimed Robert Lowell appear to have faded.
Also, Plath wrote specifically about suicide her own suicide, much-meditated and plotted and her much-publicized ill treatment at the hands of her husband Ted Hughes made her into a feminist martyr of a kind. (Though Plath herself was contemptuous of feminism and of most other women.) It is probably not the case that creative people commit suicide to a degree beyond that of the general population but this is the popular stereotype.
It is known that a suicide in a family may precipitate subsequent suicides in the family; one can surmise that for the children or relatives of suicides, especially those who are prominent and whose suicides have been much dramatized, self-destruction provides an exit that seems ready-made, as it would not be for others. (I cannot comment on Plaths and Hughess son, because I dont know his personal history.)
Ernest Hemingway, who committed suicide at the age of 62, has the father in his short story Indian Camp offer an explanation of an Indians suicide Maybe he just couldnt take it any longer. A young person associated with both Plath and Hughes would have had to contend with the literary-journalists equivalent of Tabloid Hell; maybe he couldnt take it any longer. (The kindest response would be a sympathetic silence on the part of the media.)

Serve the Sufferers

Peter D. Kramer
Peter D. Krameris theauthorof Against Depression.
Suicide is humbling for us, the observers. In the case of Sylvia Plath, we have all the narrative information anyone could wish: her prose fiction, her poetry, her correspondence, her journals, and then the Husbands, too.
With all this testimony brave, generous, self-aware, subtle, forceful we do not know. Does Ted drive her to it, and his next wife as well? Or is it progressive deterioration of the brain? (Now that were better at examining them, we can say that the brains of suicides look very bad.) Both, is the sophisticated conclusion, environment and genes, social circumstance and biology, cognition and animal drive which is to conclude vaguely indeed.
Of course there are two, Plath writes in her poem Death and Co., meaning the wife and the husband but now one might think of the mother and the child. Two turns out to be a low estimate.
What we know most about is the horror of suicide, for the ag ent, for the survivors. Advocates who speak on these matters say that death from suicide is about as frequent as death from the common cancers only a bit rarer than death from breast cancer, for example but that while there are breast cancer centers, for treatment, for prevention, for research, at many hospitals, there are suicide centers at almost none. Tonight, that mundane observation seems to me as thoughtful a response as any to these losses. As doctors, given copious testimony, we should be able to comment with more wisdom; as a culture, we should to be able to serve sufferers better.

An Exemplar of Inexorable Fate

Erica Jong
Erica Jongis theauthor,most recently, of Love Comes First, her seventh collection of poems.
Star-crossed lovers always fascinate, and Sylvia Plath and Ted Hughes were surely star-crossed. Their attraction was fierce and they both chronicled it with brilliance. Sylvia Plath wrote powerfully of her attraction to suicide, then killed herself. Ted Hughes was also no slouch when it came to the pull of mortality (witness his book, Crow).
We are often drawn to characters who seem to be exemplars of the inexorability of fate, of destiny. And they were such. In their lives, in their work, they seemed to exp ress the darkest workings of the unconscious.
People born to do that are not often steady parents. And we know that suicidal parents often produce suicidal children. I knew Ted a little, did not know Sylvia, but was very sad to hear of their sons death.
The legend of tragic, fated lovers seldom includes happy children.

The Lure of a Birthright

Andrew Solomon
Andrew Solomonis the author, most recently, of The Noonday Demon: An Atlas of Depression and of the forthcoming A Dozen Kinds of Love: Raising Challenging Children.
Suicide runs in families. Its not entirely clear to what extent this is a genetic predisposition, and to what extent having a parent who has killed himself or herself simply makes the option feel more readily available, though both are certainly true.
Suicide is the end point of many depressions, but there are plenty of people who, though acutely depressed, do not become suicidal. Committing suicide requires a mix of depression and impulsivity; so much of depression is passive and meek and deactivating. The pain may be intolerable, but the prospect of doing anything as deliberate as suicide is overwhelming.
The model of the literary suicide, of the writer whose thrall to craft is either the consequence or=2 0the cause of most dire depression, is a frequent one; David Foster Wallace is the latest link in this sorry chain. Sylvia Plath wrote about depression so explicitly and so beautifully in The Bell Jar, where she described how:
I couldnt get myself to react. I felt very still and very empty, the way the eye of a tornado must feel, moving dully along in the middle of the surrounding hullabaloo.
For anyone who has been depressed, that description rings astonishingly true. She had talent and looks and was married to a great poet, but these externals cannot assuage that eye-of-the-storm despair. For a long time, all of Plaths work (as Virginia Woolfs) was read through the lens of her suicide. She is in fact a remarkable poet, whose writing would warrant our attention even if she had lived her days out happily taking her children to soccer practice in suburbia.
Now her son has killed himself, after a long battle with depression. Its sad to think that in this time of psychopharmacological and cognitive-behavioral wonders, he was not able to get above his illness. I do not know what treatment he received or sought, but I do know that he had a birthright to the dull eye, and to that sadly final way of dealing with it. Parents who suffer from depression cannot help passing along that illness.
Those who commit suicide implant the idea that this is a viable option, but it seems likely that Nicholas Hughes was beset by demons he can rightly call his own. And every life that is lost to suicide is tragic, be it associated with poetry or not.

A Rare Genius

Elaine Showalter
Elaine Showalteris professor emerita of English at Princeton University and theauthorof A Jury of Her Peers: American Women Writers from Anne Bradstreet to Annie Proulx.
Sylvia Plath, who killed herself at the age of 30, was one of the great American poets of the 20th century. No other poet in English except Keats, and no American poet, produced so much enduring work in such a brief lifetime.
Plaths ambition to become what she called the Poetess of America and her fierce preparation to fulfill that ambition added to the unique intensity of her life and legend. Plaths poetry and fiction, appearing during the decades when women were demanding liberation from secondary lives, spoke to its readers with searing immediacy. Our sorrow at the waste and loss of a brilliant writer, and our anger at the restrictions and prohibitions Plath faced as a woman artist, fueled her legend.
In short, Plath was not just talented and creative but a rare genius. Her story will continue to compel attention for a very long while.



#6299 From: "jill.pond" <jill.pond@...>
Date: Thu May 28, 2009 3:27 am
Subject: SYLVIA PLATH AND KURT COBAIN
jill.pond
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Send Email Send Email
 
Kurt Cobain has this profile:
 
perspective - objective: he sees himself as a loser.
method - agonistic: there is an eternal, irreconciable conflict between himself and himself.
ontology - substratal: matter is evil, but just matter
principle - simple: nothing can change, never mind, nirvana, there's no hope.  
 
Syliva Plath has this profile:
 
perspective - subjective: she sees everything from the standpoint of falling through the blackness of  her personal existence surrounded by pitiless Nature tinged with sadism indissociable from her own self-hatred.
method - dialectical: she strives to overcome her fate, but becomes one with the very darkness surrounding her in her powerless attempt to become independent of it.
ontology - existential: there is nothing beyond her own experiences, and they torment her in their refusal to look at her.
principle - simple: nothing can change.

#6298 From: "S. Dall" <sdall49@...>
Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:07 am
Subject: Why the Plath Legacy Lives
sdall49@...
Send Email Send Email
 
The New York Times pieces are not as reflective as one might have wished, but an interesting tribute nonetheless. -- Stephanie D.


http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/why-the-plath-legacy-lives/


Why the Plath Legacy Lives

Sylvia Plath(Photo: Rollie McKenna) Sylvia Plath in 1959.
It has been 46 years since Sylvia Plath gassed herself to death in her kitchen, and it was worldwide news when her daughter Frieda Hughes announced that Plath’s 47-year-old son, Nicholas Hughes, a fisheries biologist in Alaska, killed himself last week.
Why, of all the stories of creative, brilliant people who have suffered from fatal depressions, does Plath s tragic legacy resonate so widely? Here, Joyce Carol Oates, Peter D. Kramer, Erica Jong, Andrew Solomon and Elaine Showalter offer their thoughts.

Her Reputation Rises, as Others Fade

Joyce Carol Oates
Joyce Carol Oates, the Roger S. Berlind Distinguished Professor of Humanities at Princeton University, is the author, most recently, of “Dear Husband,” a story collection.
The suicide of Sylvia Plath was and is obviously of enormous cultural significance because Plath was a brilliant poet — at the time of her death she was already considered a very important poet and since her death, her reputation has risen continuously while others who were her gifted contemporaries — Anne Sexton, John Berryman, even the much-acclaimed Robert Lowell — appear to have faded.
Also, Plath wrote specifically about suicide — her own suicide, much-meditated and plotted — and her much-publicized ill treatment at the hands of her husband Ted Hughes made her into a feminist martyr of a kind. (Though Plath herself was contemptuous of feminism and of most other women.) It is probably not the case that “creative” people commit suicide to a degree beyond that of the general population but this is the popular stereotype.
It is known that a suicide in a family may precipitate subsequent suicides in the family; one can surmise that for the children or relatives of suicides, especially those who are prominent and whose suicides have been much dramatized, self-destruction provides an “exit” that seems ready-made, as it would not be for others. (I cannot comment on Plath’s and Hughes’s son, because I don’t know his personal history.)
Ernest Hemingway, who committed suicide at the age of 62, has the father in his short story “Indian Camp” offer an explanation of an Indian’s suicide — “Maybe he just couldn’t take it any longer.” A young person associated with both Plath and Hughes would have had to contend with the literary-journalist’s equivalent of Tabloid Hell; maybe he couldn’t take it any longer. (The kindest response would be a sympathetic silence on the part of the media.)

Serve the Sufferers

Peter D. Kramer
Peter D. Kramer is the author of “Against Depression.”
Suicide is humbling for us, the observers. In the case of Sylvia Plath, we have all the narrative information anyone could wish: her prose fiction, her poetry, her correspondence, her journals, and then the Husband’s, too.
With all this testimony — brave, generous, self-aware, subtle, forceful — we do not know. Does Ted drive her to it, and his next wife as well? Or is it progressive deterioration of the brain? (Now that we’re better at examining them, we can say that the brains of suicides look very bad.) Both, is the sophisticated conclusion, environment and genes, social circumstance and biology, cognition and animal drive — which is to conclude vaguely indeed.
“Of course there are two,” Plath writes in her poem “Death and Co.,” meaning the wife and the husband — but now one might think of the mother and the child. Two turns out to be a low estimate.
What we know most about is the horror of suicide, for the ag ent, for the survivors. Advocates who speak on these matters say that death from suicide is about as frequent as death from the common cancers — only a bit rarer than death from breast cancer, for example — but that while there are breast cancer centers, for treatment, for prevention, for research, at many hospitals, there are suicide centers at almost none. Tonight, that mundane observation seems to me as thoughtful a response as any to these losses. As doctors, given copious testimony, we should be able to comment with more wisdom; as a culture, we should to be able to serve sufferers better.

An Exemplar of Inexorable Fate

Erica Jong
Erica Jong is the author, most recently, of ”Love Comes First,” her seventh collection of poems.
Star-crossed lovers always fascinate, and Sylvia Plath and Ted Hughes were surely star-crossed. Their attraction was fierce and they both chronicled it with brilliance. Sylvia Plath wrote powerfully of her attraction to suicide, then killed herself. Ted Hughes was also no slouch when it came to the pull of mortality (witness his book, “Crow”).
We are often drawn to characters who seem to be exemplars of the inexorability of fate, of destiny. And they were such. In their lives, in their work, they seemed to exp ress the darkest workings of the unconscious.
People born to do that are not often steady parents. And we know that suicidal parents often produce suicidal children. I knew Ted a little, did not know Sylvia, but was very sad to hear of their son’s death.
The legend of tragic, fated lovers seldom includes happy children.

The Lure of a Birthright

Andrew Solomon
Andrew Solomon is the author, most recently, of “The Noonday Demon: An Atlas of Depression” and of the forthcoming “A Dozen Kinds of Love: Raising Challenging Children.”
Suicide runs in families. It’s not entirely clear to what extent this is a genetic predisposition, and to what extent having a parent who has killed himself or herself simply makes the option feel more readily available, though both are certainly true.
Suicide is the end point of many depressions, but there are plenty of people who, though acutely depressed, do not become suicidal. Committing suicide requires a mix of depression and impulsivity; so much of depression is passive and meek and deactivating. The pain may be intolerable, but the prospect of doing anything as deliberate as suicide is overwhelming.
The model of the literary suicide, of the writer whose thrall to craft is either the consequence or=2 0the cause of most dire depression, is a frequent one; David Foster Wallace is the latest link in this sorry chain. Sylvia Plath wrote about depression so explicitly and so beautifully in “The Bell Jar,” where she described how:
I couldn’t get myself to react. I felt very still and very empty, the way the eye of a tornado must feel, moving dully along in the middle of the surrounding hullabaloo.
For anyone who has been depressed, that description rings astonishingly true. She had talent and looks and was married to a great poet, but these externals cannot assuage that eye-of-the-storm despair. For a long time, all of Plath’s work (as Virginia Woolf’s) was read through the lens of her suicide. She is in fact a remarkable poet, whose writing would warrant our attention even if she had lived her days out happily taking her children to soccer practice in suburbia.
Now her son has killed himself, after a long battle with depression. It’s sad to think that in this time of psychopharmacological and cognitive-behavioral wonders, he was not able to get above his illness. I do not know what treatment he received or sought, but I do know that he had a birthright to the dull eye, and to that sadly final way of dealing with it. Parents who suffer from depression cannot help passing along that illness.
Those who commit suicide implant the idea that this is a viable option, but it seems likely that Nicholas Hughes was beset by demons he can rightly call his own. And every life that is lost to suicide is tragic, be it associated with poetry or not.

A Rare Genius

Elaine Showalter
Elaine Showalter is professor emerita of English at Princeton University and the author of “A Jury of Her Peers: American Women Writers from Anne Bradstreet to Annie Proulx.”
Sylvia Plath, who killed herself at the age of 30, was one of the great American poets of the 20th century. No other poet in English except Keats, and no American poet, produced so much enduring work in such a brief lifetime.
Plath’s ambition to become what she called “the Poetess of America” and her fierce preparation to fulfill that ambition added to the unique intensity of her life and legend. Plath’s poetry and fiction, appearing during the decades when women were demanding liberation from secondary lives, spoke to its readers with searing immediacy. Our sorrow at the waste and loss of a brilliant writer, and our anger at the restrictions and prohibitions Plath faced as a woman artist, fueled her legend.
In short, Plath was not just “talented and creative” but a rare genius. Her story will continue to compel attention for a very long while.

#6297 From: gabriel ricard <deep_in_liquid_indigo@...>
Date: Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:43 pm
Subject: Re: Defending virginity
deep_in_liqu...
Online Now Online Now
Send Email Send Email
 
That's an interesting thought.

I like that.

gabriel

see you space cowboy

--- On Sat, 2/14/09, Jill Pond <jill.pond@...> wrote:
From: Jill Pond <jill.pond@...>
Subject: [sylviaplath] Defending virginity
To: sylviaplath@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 14, 2009, 8:47 AM

We have to put ourselves in her time. The hysteria today over child protection to maintain what's left of an illusory sense of "moral order" in postmodernity should not blind us to what Plath might literally mean: before she was 13 she was comfortable with sexual intimacy, but that she made a decision on her own at 13 to do otherwise. What's most important here is Plath's notion that every effort we make to impose order on the world cannot take away the darkness, indifference tinged with sadism, in Nature.

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, erdedy_2000 <erdedy_2000@ yahoo.com> wrote:
From: erdedy_2000 <erdedy_2000@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [sylviaplath] Chapter 19...one small question
To: sylviaplath@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 11:04 PM


Hello folks...new to the list.

Just finished reading The Bell Jar for the first time, and I'm puzzled
by one small detail in the episode with Irwin in chapter 19.

Esther says:

"Ever since I'd learned about the corruption of Buddy Willard my
virginity weighed like a millstone around my neck. It had been of
such enormous importance to me to me for so long that my habit was to
defend it at all costs. I had been defending it for five years and I
was sick of it."

My question is, why "five years?" It sounds like there's a definite
dividing line and yet I can't place the moment/event that made Esther
*begin* to defend herself? It's a small point, but I've been thinking
about the story's time-line and I still haven't placed this. Maybe
I've missed something obvious on my first go through? Any answers or
opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks

d




#6296 From: Jill Pond <jill.pond@...>
Date: Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:47 pm
Subject: Defending virginity
jill.pond
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
We have to put ourselves in her time. The hysteria today over child protection to maintain what's left of an illusory sense of "moral order" in postmodernity should not blind us to what Plath might literally mean: before she was 13 she was comfortable with sexual intimacy, but that she made a decision on her own at 13 to do otherwise. What's most important here is Plath's notion that every effort we make to impose order on the world cannot take away the darkness, indifference tinged with sadism, in Nature.

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, erdedy_2000 <erdedy_2000@...> wrote:
From: erdedy_2000 <erdedy_2000@...>
Subject: [sylviaplath] Chapter 19...one small question
To: sylviaplath@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 11:04 PM


Hello folks...new to the list.

Just finished reading The Bell Jar for the first time, and I'm puzzled
by one small detail in the episode with Irwin in chapter 19.

Esther says:

"Ever since I'd learned about the corruption of Buddy Willard my
virginity weighed like a millstone around my neck. It had been of
such enormous importance to me to me for so long that my habit was to
defend it at all costs. I had been defending it for five years and I
was sick of it."

My question is, why "five years?" It sounds like there's a definite
dividing line and yet I can't place the moment/event that made Esther
*begin* to defend herself? It's a small point, but I've been thinking
about the story's time-line and I still haven't placed this. Maybe
I've missed something obvious on my first go through? Any answers or
opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks

d



#6295 From: gabriel ricard <deep_in_liquid_indigo@...>
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:09 am
Subject: Re: Chapter 19...one small question
deep_in_liqu...
Online Now Online Now
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I always assumed it was because one usually enters a certain degree of more pronounced sexual awareness when they become a teenager, which is around thirteen, so I always kind of assumed it referred to ages thirteen to eighteen.

But I could be absolutely wrong about that.

gabriel

see you space cowboy

--- On Tue, 2/10/09, erdedy_2000 <erdedy_2000@...> wrote:
From: erdedy_2000 <erdedy_2000@...>
Subject: [sylviaplath] Chapter 19...one small question
To: sylviaplath@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, February 10, 2009, 12:04 AM


Hello folks...new to the list.

Just finished reading The Bell Jar for the first time, and I'm puzzled
by one small detail in the episode with Irwin in chapter 19.

Esther says:

"Ever since I'd learned about the corruption of Buddy Willard my
virginity weighed like a millstone around my neck. It had been of
such enormous importance to me to me for so long that my habit was to
defend it at all costs. I had been defending it for five years and I
was sick of it."

My question is, why "five years?" It sounds like there's a definite
dividing line and yet I can't place the moment/event that made Esther
*begin* to defend herself? It's a small point, but I've been thinking
about the story's time-line and I still haven't placed this. Maybe
I've missed something obvious on my first go through? Any answers or
opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks

d



#6294 From: "erdedy_2000" <erdedy_2000@...>
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:04 am
Subject: Chapter 19...one small question
erdedy_2000
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hello folks...new to the list.

Just finished reading The Bell Jar for the first time, and I'm puzzled
by one small detail in the episode with Irwin in chapter 19.

Esther says:

"Ever since I'd learned about the corruption of Buddy Willard my
virginity weighed like a millstone around my neck.  It had been of
such enormous importance to me to me for so long that my habit was to
defend it at all costs.  I had been defending it for five years and I
was sick of it."

My question is, why "five years?" It sounds like there's a definite
dividing line and yet I can't place the moment/event that made Esther
*begin* to defend herself?  It's a small point, but I've been thinking
about the story's time-line and I still haven't placed this.  Maybe
I've missed something obvious on my first go through?  Any answers or
opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks

d

#6293 From: gabriel ricard <deep_in_liquid_indigo@...>
Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:50 pm
Subject: Re: recovery el al
deep_in_liqu...
Online Now Online Now
Send Email Send Email
 
Exactly. It definitely struck me a tongue-in-cheek comment.

gabriel

see you space cowboy

--- On Tue, 1/27/09, desblair <desblair@...> wrote:
From: desblair <desblair@...>
Subject: [sylviaplath] recovery el al
To: sylviaplath@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 12:43 PM

Happy new year to everyone, belated, but none the less heart felt.
First of all, define conformity. As we travel the road of life
conformity is what supplies the maximum gain and maximum pleasure with
minimum effort and minimum cost. This system theretofore cannot abide
aberrations and there is none more so than poets. Poets thrive on
travelling in the wrong direction to the common throng and Ms Plath
was no exception. I doubt if she mean't this comment literally and it
could have been a tongue-in-cheek poke at normality.
I write this as I suckle a large whiskey so any errors in syntex
please blame Bushmills. Des

p.s. Why did Sylvia have one six jars of honey in her cellar?



#6292 From: "desblair" <desblair@...>
Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:43 pm
Subject: recovery el al
desblair
Offline Offline
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Happy new year to everyone, belated, but none the less heart felt.
First of all, define conformity. As we travel the road of life
conformity is what supplies the maximum gain and maximum pleasure with
minimum effort and minimum cost. This system theretofore cannot abide
aberrations and there is none more so than poets. Poets thrive on
travelling in the wrong direction to the common throng and Ms Plath
was no exception. I doubt if she mean't this comment literally and it
could have been a tongue-in-cheek poke at normality.
   I write this as I suckle a large whiskey so any errors in syntex
please blame Bushmills.  Des

p.s.  Why did Sylvia have one six jars of honey in her cellar?

#6291 From: gabriel ricard <deep_in_liquid_indigo@...>
Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:34 am
Subject: Re: RECOVERY IS CONFORMITY
deep_in_liqu...
Online Now Online Now
Send Email Send Email
 
It's a trade-off, I suppose. If you want to belong in "normal" society, you often have to sacrifice a few things. It was worse during Plath's time, but you do still see evidence of that in people's attitudes and behaviors.

gabriel

see you space cowboy

--- On Thu, 1/22/09, sdall49@... <sdall49@...> wrote:
From: sdall49@... <sdall49@...>
Subject: Re: [sylviaplath] RECOVERY IS CONFORMITY
To: sylviaplath@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 6:56 PM

RECOVERY IS CONFORMITY a straightforward equation for its time (and even ours):

Nonconformity was/is treated as a "sickness" and broadly considered (though significantly less so now than then) to be a sin, if not an actual crime, against society.

The only "Recovery" from that "sickness" was/is "Conformity, " a very bitter pill for one (especially a poet) who does not fit the norm and has no desire to do so.

(Happy New Year to all! Will the list members now come out of hibernation? Please?)

Stephanie/Sacrament o

In a message dated 22/01/09 15:26:27, jill.pond@yahoo. com writes:



RECOVERY IS CONFORMITY
 
Plath wrote this comment in her journal. So what does it mean? It suggests a resignation to the blackness of individual novelty, and its paradoxical heroism.
 
Epictetus told us to conform to God's will. Suicide, he said,  is God sounding the signal of retreat!
 
But for Plath, there's no God, and no "higher" signal. The rejection of conformity, however, spins in its own glory, till it wakes up to its own pitiless, inexorable logic, grand, but hardly comforting. Or maybe it is comforting? It's real, isn't it? It can't be epiphenomena: how can that coldness be just talk?



************ **
From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol. com?ncid= emlcntaolcom0000 0023)



#6290 From: sdall49@...
Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:56 pm
Subject: Re: RECOVERY IS CONFORMITY
sdall49@...
Send Email Send Email
 
RECOVERY IS CONFORMITY – a straightforward equation for its time (and even ours):

Nonconformity was/is treated as a "sickness" and broadly considered (though significantly less so now than then) to be a sin, if not an actual crime, against society.

The only "Recovery" from that "sickness" was/is "Conformity," a very bitter pill for one (especially a poet) who does not fit the norm and has no desire to do so.

(Happy New Year to all! Will the list members now come out of hibernation? Please?)

Stephanie/Sacramento

In a message dated 22/01/09 15:26:27, jill.pond@... writes:



RECOVERY IS CONFORMITY
 
Plath wrote this comment in her journal. So what does it mean? It suggests a resignation to the blackness of individual novelty, and its paradoxical heroism.
 
Epictetus told us to conform to God's will. Suicide, he said,  is God sounding the signal of retreat!
 
But for Plath, there's no God, and no "higher" signal. The rejection of conformity, however, spins in its own glory, till it wakes up to its own pitiless, inexorable logic, grand, but hardly comforting. Or maybe it is comforting? It's real, isn't it? It can't be epiphenomena: how can that coldness be just talk?



**************
From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023)

#6289 From: "jill.pond" <jill.pond@...>
Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:36 pm
Subject: RECOVERY IS CONFORMITY
jill.pond
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RECOVERY IS CONFORMITY

 

Plath wrote this comment in her journal. So what does it mean? It suggests a resignation to the blackness of individual novelty, and its paradoxical heroism.

 

Epictetus told us to conform to God's will. Suicide, he said,  is God sounding the signal of retreat!

 

But for Plath, there's no God, and no "higher" signal. The rejection of conformity, however, spins in its own glory, till it wakes up to its own pitiless, inexorable logic, grand, but hardly comforting. Or maybe it is comforting? It's real, isn't it? It can't be epiphenomena: how can that coldness be just talk?


#6288 From: "jill.pond" <jill.pond@...>
Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:02 am
Subject: PLATH AND EMERSON
jill.pond
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

Hi Sara,

 

I don't believe that Plath felt that she had achieved an identification with something greater than herself. She defined her condition that she found herself with in its complete nature, but this did not mean that she was happy with it, or found some answer by means of defining it.

 

She tells us that she failed in life. Modernity has won us personal freedom, but we have failed to become anything, at least in the metaphysical sense of a substance. At the same time, this sense of substance is associated with pre-modern cultures, which are characterized by a hierarchy of spirituality in society.

 

So Plath tried to find a new metaphysical self, but merely found herself defining her own formless freedom in modernity, and could only find through suicide its highest dignity.

 

- Jill


#6287 From: des blair <desblair@...>
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:31 pm
Subject: The Resurrection
desblair
Offline Offline
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Hello Jill Pond,
   And thanks for giving a group jag.  I am off line for a week and when I get
back on, there is a Blessing of E.mails from the group. (I don't know the
collective noun for e.mails).  Jill, you have galvanised us back to the keyboard
again, and the poetry of Ms. Plath.
I took to Emerson like a duck to ballet dancing and, as I read poetry for purely
pleasure and not in pursuit of Academic excellence, I found Emerson too, too
black. Ah! But Ms Plath is a poetess I find mesmerising and as regards her
work..
I cannot love her poetry more, I don't know how,
Nor do I possess the eloquence to sing her praise.
I can but lament her premature demise and wish,
With all my heart, that I had seen and said
That my bee gauntlets were like white lilies.

Keep stirring the pot Jill,  Regards Des blair





      
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#6286 From: "etereamente" <etereamente@...>
Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:33 pm
Subject: Re: PLATH AND EMERSON
etereamente
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Of course at the and she wanted to be so objective as her beloved white
Goddess ... no matter what people would say.
She was a genius, and wanted to go straight anyway.

She just wanted to look at the world like from a faraway planet, a distant
goddess...

("The moon is my mother. She is not sweet like Mary" in "The Moon
and the Yew tree")


Her true mother was the Goddess of Tragedy, The Goddess of the
Ancient Poetry ( mythology ) and she thought that she would have get
fame after her lifetime as Homer ...I guess.

ps.This group is amazing..i love Plath:)

Sara
www.sylviaplathitalia.com


--- In sylviaplath@yahoogroups.com, "jill.pond" <jill.pond@...> wrote:
>
>
> My friend, Chris, offered this answer to the question of the apparent
> contradiction between Plath's drive to be published and her notion
> of Nature as Evil.
>
>
>
> "For Plath, the cosmos constantly assumes the form of an entropic,
> yet aggressively active tendency toward annihilation. This is evident in
> the following lines of her poetry
>
>
>
> "What a trash, to annihilate each decade..."; "I am the arrow, the
> dew/that flied into the... cauldron of morning."
>
>
>
> This active annihilation is true also on the personal level where at the
> personal level we have suicide. So Plath is not merely representing
> herself as a failure at the domestic level (namely as a mother and a
> wife), but she is also personifying the destructive forces in the
> Hephaestus-forge of being.
>
>
>
> The "Ariel" poems represent the dark speaker's apotheosis as
> "everything and nothing." In the personal mythology of her poetry,
Plath
> usurps the position formerly occupied by Augustine's God as
everywhere
> and nowhere.
>
>
>
> I believe that in the end (and only in the end) she needed to produce
> the poems more than she needed to see them published - they were
ends in
> themselves, so to speak - through which she could approach the
condition
> of being as nothingness, creativity as self-destruction - poetry as
> silence."
>
>
>
> - Jill
>

#6285 From: "jill.pond" <jill.pond@...>
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:22 pm
Subject: PLATH AND EMERSON
jill.pond
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Send Email Send Email
 

My friend, Chris, offered this answer to the question of the apparent contradiction between Plath's drive to be published and her notion of Nature as Evil.

 

"For Plath, the cosmos constantly assumes the form of an entropic, yet aggressively active tendency toward annihilation. This is evident in the following lines of her poetry

 

"What a trash, to annihilate each decade..."; "I am the arrow, the dew/that flied into the... cauldron of morning."

 

This active annihilation is true also on the personal level where at the personal level we have suicide. So Plath is not merely representing herself as a failure at the domestic level (namely as a mother and a wife), but she is also personifying the destructive forces in the Hephaestus-forge of being. 

 

The "Ariel" poems represent the dark speaker's apotheosis as "everything and nothing." In the personal mythology of her poetry, Plath usurps the position formerly occupied by Augustine's God as everywhere and nowhere.

 

I believe that in the end (and only in the end) she needed to produce the poems more than she needed to see them published - they were ends in themselves, so to speak - through which she could approach the condition of being as nothingness, creativity as self-destruction - poetry as silence."

 

- Jill


#6284 From: "jill.pond" <jill.pond@...>
Date: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:55 am
Subject: PLATH AND EMERSON
jill.pond
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Hi Sara,

I'm familiar with Tim Kendall. Is there another individual who writes
about the connection between Plath and Emerson?

May I discuss with you something I find in her journals?

I noticed that before she met Ted she enjoyed a certain youthful energy.
This energy softened the impact of disagreeable experiences. For
instance, she wrote about boys with light humored aversion at the very
worst. Then she met Ted and at first she saw Ted and herself as sort of
together against the world. But then she faced disappointments, and
started getting really dark.

Now one thing I find constant, however, during this time is a strong
competitive desire to get published. It comes up again and again. So
even without Ted, we see this deep-seated desire for recognition driving
her to insane hurt.

What I'm asking is - if she came to see Evil in Nature, what sustained
her desire for recognition? - a desire that ultimately made her see
herself as a "failure"? How can one be a "failure" in a cosmos that is
Evil?

Jill

#6283 From: "etereamente" <etereamente@...>
Date: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:57 pm
Subject: Re: PLATH AND EMERSON
etereamente
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Hello everyone,

I'm Sara from italy.Since I've just finished my thesis about Plath I could
say that Emerson wanted to integrate the *not me* (=nature) into the
*me*. He was idealistic and had a positive relationship with nature.
While Plath perceived that nature was sometimes hostile to this
integration. She perceived that EVIL IS in the NATURE itself. After
having tryied to integrate even hostile landscapes ( ex: "Hardcastle
crags") .
She became predatory towards nature. The final stage of Sylvia's
process of integration of nature ispired by emerson ideas, is the
*mindscape* poetry. She was able at the end of his career to integrate
hostile nature and even trascendence. ( "ariel" )


There is a chapter about it in: Tim kendall - a critical study (2001)

My italian website (&thesis) is here : www.sylviaplaitalia.com

Sara.

ps. Sorry for the mistakes...:)

#6282 From: "jill.pond" <jill.pond@...>
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:06 pm
Subject: PLATH AND EMERSON
jill.pond
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Emerson insisted on integrating the soul into the `not me' (both nature and art, other people and my own body).One way Emerson did this was by becoming a transparent eye-ball, where he became nothing, and could see all, and the currents of the Universal Being circulated through him. And Nature healed him through the eye. So Emerson thought that he could as a poet integrate all the parts of the horizon of perception, and behold something as beautiful in Nature as his own soul.

 

But Plath thought that the health of the eye was put in jeopardy by the horizons of perception. The eye was something made ugly by its very function: "white as a blind man's eye", "mobs of eyeballs", "my small bald eye", "deeps of an eye", "put her heart out like an only eye", "the bald slots of his eyes", "dumb as eyes", "my eyes that have been sharpening themselves", "one wall eye", "bald eyes", etc.

 

Plath was impressed by the harsh, unforgiving landscapes she visited, and turned them into mindscapes in her poetry to push her unique idea of the eye. And by grasping the persona behind this experience of the eye, Plath felt that she could speak with the authority of a poet.


#6281 From: gabriel ricard <deep_in_liquid_indigo@...>
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:30 am
Subject: Re: PLATH AND EMERSON
deep_in_liqu...
Online Now Online Now
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Not to my knowledge.
 
gabriel

"jill.pond" <jill.pond@...> wrote:

Has anyone heard the idea that Syliva Plath took Emerson's idea that
Nature is good and we're in Nature, and inverted the idea to say that
Nature is evil and we're outside Nature like a doomed soul?




see you space cowboy


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#6280 From: Dayna Cramer <daynacramer@...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:20 pm
Subject: Looking for Everett G
daynacramer
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Everett, are you out there?

Dayna


      
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#6279 From: sdall49@...
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:13 pm
Subject: Re: PLATH AND EMERSON
sdall49@...
Send Email Send Email
 

In a message dated 18/12/07 8:57:58, jill.pond@... writes:

Has anyone heard the idea that Syliva Plath took Emerson's idea that
Nature is good and we're in Nature, and inverted the idea to say that
Nature is evil and we're outside Nature like a doomed soul?

Interesting consideration.

Though I had never considered Plath's poetry in that context, Emerson [wa][i]s capable of eliciting
> and opposite philosophical reactions, not to mention plain unadulterated nausea (definitely not Sartre's variety), in most clear thinkers; and as a New Englander Plath would undoubtedly have had him force-fed to her in such quantities that nothing short of poetic exorcism probably could have cleansed her of him.

(Excellent! An excuse to briefly abandon work and holiday obligations in favor of a bit of Plath [Emerson is on his own]!)

Stephanie



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#6278 From: "jill.pond" <jill.pond@...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:21 am
Subject: PLATH AND EMERSON
jill.pond
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Has anyone heard the idea that Syliva Plath took Emerson's idea that
Nature is good and we're in Nature, and inverted the idea to say that
Nature is evil and we're outside Nature like a doomed soul?

#6277 From: "robert hanudel" <hanudel@...>
Date: Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:14 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Assia Weevil
janehanudel
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Hi, Jaimie,
        Thanks so much for your review of Lover of Unreason.    I'm definitely encouraged to check it out!
                          Jane Hanudel (N. C.) 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 7/13/2007 1:19:39 PM
Subject: [sylviaplath] Re: Assia Weevil

Hi everyone, I am new. My name is Jaimie and I am a librarian in NJ.
Wondering if there are any other Jersey people here?

I am actually reading Lover of Unreason and I have to say it really
shows Assia in a true to life light as perhaps Sylvia may have
wanted it written. HOWEVER it also shows Sylvia in a very negative
light and shows how ignorant of a person Assia was to everyone
except herself. I do recommend it for any Sylvia bio lovers. It is a
good selection for the only one out there on the topic. I am only
about half way through it and I will post once I complete the book.

--- In sylviaplath@yahoogroups.com, "robert hanudel" <hanudel@...>
wrote:
>
> Has anyone read the book Lover of Unreason, the bio of Assia
Weevil? Would welcome any comments about it.
>


#6276 From: "allthatvelma" <allthatvelma@...>
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:46 pm
Subject: Re: Assia Weevil
allthatvelma
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi everyone, I am new. My name is Jaimie and I am a librarian in NJ.
Wondering if there are any other Jersey people here?

  I am actually reading Lover of Unreason and I have to say it really
shows Assia in a true to life light as perhaps Sylvia may have
wanted it written. HOWEVER it also shows Sylvia in a very negative
light and shows how ignorant of a person Assia was to everyone
except herself. I do recommend it for any Sylvia bio lovers. It is a
good selection for the only one out there on the topic. I am only
about half way through it and I will post once I complete the book.













--- In sylviaplath@yahoogroups.com, "robert hanudel" <hanudel@...>
wrote:
>
> Has anyone read the book Lover of Unreason, the bio of Assia
Weevil?   Would welcome any comments about it.
>

#6275 From: "robert hanudel" <hanudel@...>
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:15 pm
Subject: Assia Weevil
janehanudel
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Has anyone read the book Lover of Unreason, the bio of Assia Weevil?   Would welcome any comments about it.

#6274 From: gabriel ricard <deep_in_liquid_indigo@...>
Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 2:59 am
Subject: Re: Re: Sylvia Plath inspired....
deep_in_liqu...
Online Now Online Now
Send Email Send Email
 
Well, of course though, in some cases, being honest doesn't mean crap.
 
Some people can be as honest as humanly possible, and they still might suck.
 
Heh.
 
But yeah, glad somebody responded to that.
 
I was curious for thoughts on it.
 
Thanks.
 
gabriel

robert hanudel <hanudel@...> wrote:
Gabriel,    I think you've hit on some very good points here.    And very well expressed, too.    I totally agree about the difficulty  involved in being honest.    And, too, writers who work hard at getting  down on paper  what's inside of  them and are not afraid of the demands of that task when it comes to working with language--are necessarily a group set apart.    Honest writing that is also  writing well done---is, I think,   not something that is achieved without a lot of effort  and without a lot of courage.   -  Jane Hanudel      
 
 
 
 
 Original Message -----
Sent: 4/5/2007 11:21:40 AM
Subject: Re: [sylviaplath] Re: Sylvia Plath inspired....

Well, I think I'm naturally attracted to any writer who can face the desolation and desperation of madness and a hateful, ugly world with a cool perspective. I'm not saying her work lacked passion. I just think that she faced her demons, real and imagined and wrote about it in explicit detail. She wrote without fear. Doesn't mean she wasn't afraid, but she went after her subjects, the gods and monsters that chipped away at her sanity, and she didn't stop until she was dead.
 
It's sad that facing them cost Sylvia Plath her life, but I suppose the upside, if any, is the work she left behind for us.
 
But it's a tough business, being that honest. It killed Hunter S. Thompson, it's pretty much crippled Kurt Vonnegut. It doesn't take down everybody, but I do think there's a very good reason why depression, drug abuse, and even madness run through writers so quickly and easily.
 
I don't think it's romantic, but it's always interested me.
 
gabriel

Bostian <maddrb@yahoo.com> wrote:
Gabriel, can you write a bit more about what appeals
to you about the imagery in S.P.'s work?

I've been a fan especially since I heard Sylvia Plath
read her own poetry recorded on a cassette I found in
my local public library (amazing how they have things
you won't find anywhere in bookstores), & I was
captivated by that reading voice. In fact, I was
surprised when I later came across a series of photos
in a biography of Sylvia in her youth--how could a
sunny blonde from New England appeal to a guy who
generally sticks to reading Kafka, the Dead Russians,
& dark-haired New York authors? But it is the tone &
diction of her writing--it comes fully alive in
recordings of her reading--that strikes me. (I always
fall for well-spoken women.)

I wish I could find the first paragraph of the first
page of The Bell Jar--I remember reading that aloud to
myself, being surprised by something I hadn't expected
(somehow I had an idea in the back of my mind that
Sylvia Plath was this whining poet that only girls in
English Lit. class read), and it was her voice which
pulled me into the rest of her work. The title story
Johnny Panic & the Bible of Dreams opens with the same
strong voice.

-Aaron

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#6273 From: "robert hanudel" <hanudel@...>
Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 4:09 am
Subject: Re: Re: Sylvia Plath inspired....
janehanudel
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Gabriel,    I think you've hit on some very good points here.    And very well expressed, too.    I totally agree about the difficulty  involved in being honest.    And, too, writers who work hard at getting  down on paper  what's inside of  them and are not afraid of the demands of that task when it comes to working with language--are necessarily a group set apart.    Honest writing that is also  writing well done---is, I think,   not something that is achieved without a lot of effort  and without a lot of courage.   -  Jane Hanudel      
 
 
 
 
 Original Message -----
Sent: 4/5/2007 11:21:40 AM
Subject: Re: [sylviaplath] Re: Sylvia Plath inspired....

Well, I think I'm naturally attracted to any writer who can face the desolation and desperation of madness and a hateful, ugly world with a cool perspective. I'm not saying her work lacked passion. I just think that she faced her demons, real and imagined and wrote about it in explicit detail. She wrote without fear. Doesn't mean she wasn't afraid, but she went after her subjects, the gods and monsters that chipped away at her sanity, and she didn't stop until she was dead.
 
It's sad that facing them cost Sylvia Plath her life, but I suppose the upside, if any, is the work she left behind for us.
 
But it's a tough business, being that honest. It killed Hunter S. Thompson, it's pretty much crippled Kurt Vonnegut. It doesn't take down everybody, but I do think there's a very good reason why depression, drug abuse, and even madness run through writers so quickly and easily.
 
I don't think it's romantic, but it's always interested me.
 
gabriel

Bostian <maddrb@yahoo.com> wrote:
Gabriel, can you write a bit more about what appeals
to you about the imagery in S.P.'s work?

I've been a fan especially since I heard Sylvia Plath
read her own poetry recorded on a cassette I found in
my local public library (amazing how they have things
you won't find anywhere in bookstores), & I was
captivated by that reading voice. In fact, I was
surprised when I later came across a series of photos
in a biography of Sylvia in her youth--how could a
sunny blonde from New England appeal to a guy who
generally sticks to reading Kafka, the Dead Russians,
& dark-haired New York authors? But it is the tone &
diction of her writing--it comes fully alive in
recordings of her reading--that strikes me. (I always
fall for well-spoken women.)

I wish I could find the first paragraph of the first
page of The Bell Jar--I remember reading that aloud to
myself, being surprised by something I hadn't expected
(somehow I had an idea in the back of my mind that
Sylvia Plath was this whining poet that only girls in
English Lit. class read), and it was her voice which
pulled me into the rest of her work. The title story
Johnny Panic & the Bible of Dreams opens with the same
strong voice.

-Aaron

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#6272 From: gabriel ricard <deep_in_liquid_indigo@...>
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 3:09 am
Subject: Re: Re: Sylvia Plath inspired....
deep_in_liqu...
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Well, I think I'm naturally attracted to any writer who can face the desolation and desperation of madness and a hateful, ugly world with a cool perspective. I'm not saying her work lacked passion. I just think that she faced her demons, real and imagined and wrote about it in explicit detail. She wrote without fear. Doesn't mean she wasn't afraid, but she went after her subjects, the gods and monsters that chipped away at her sanity, and she didn't stop until she was dead.
 
It's sad that facing them cost Sylvia Plath her life, but I suppose the upside, if any, is the work she left behind for us.
 
But it's a tough business, being that honest. It killed Hunter S. Thompson, it's pretty much crippled Kurt Vonnegut. It doesn't take down everybody, but I do think there's a very good reason why depression, drug abuse, and even madness run through writers so quickly and easily.
 
I don't think it's romantic, but it's always interested me.
 
gabriel

Bostian <maddrb@...> wrote:
Gabriel, can you write a bit more about what appeals
to you about the imagery in S.P.'s work?

I've been a fan especially since I heard Sylvia Plath
read her own poetry recorded on a cassette I found in
my local public library (amazing how they have things
you won't find anywhere in bookstores), & I was
captivated by that reading voice. In fact, I was
surprised when I later came across a series of photos
in a biography of Sylvia in her youth--how could a
sunny blonde from New England appeal to a guy who
generally sticks to reading Kafka, the Dead Russians,
& dark-haired New York authors? But it is the tone &
diction of her writing--it comes fully alive in
recordings of her reading--that strikes me. (I always
fall for well-spoken women.)

I wish I could find the first paragraph of the first
page of The Bell Jar--I remember reading that aloud to
myself, being surprised by something I hadn't expected
(somehow I had an idea in the back of my mind that
Sylvia Plath was this whining poet that only girls in
English Lit. class read), and it was her voice which
pulled me into the rest of her work. The title story
Johnny Panic & the Bible of Dreams opens with the same
strong voice.

-Aaron

__________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/



see you space cowboy


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