When the young man was boasting in the theater and saying: I am wise for I have
conversed with many wise men!

Epictetus responded: I also have conversed with many rich man, but I am not
rich!

:-)

Dover Thrift Edition p. 55 CLXX

It seems Epictetus had a sharp sense of humor!
Long Live and Flourish,
Richard

FACEBOOK shared the following link:

Here’s Eckhart Tolle talking about Epictetus and his philosophy of freedom. I
like Eckhart Tolle, he seems a happy fellow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHpgWLGUv9o&feature=share

Preview Clip from "The Wisdom of Epictetus" Issue at Eckhart Tolle TV Eckhart
shares another text from his favorite "perennial philosophy" as we explore the
...
Long Live and Flourish,
Richard

«..I'm not being treated by others as I believe I should
be treated. Others' attitudes toward me should be different from what they are.
I'm basically unhappy at this time because of this. »


Steve:
I felt that way much of the time for decades - namely underappreciated.

Please pardon my digression from Stoicism towards REBT -

These things helped me, namely adopting -

1 "Happiness", or just letting go of being "grumpy"
[Chronic dissatisfaction is often a turn off]

2. Unconditional Self-Acceptance [USA or I'm OK]

3. Unconditional Other-Acceptance [UOA or You're OK]

One "guru" advised me that we're like mirrors, if you're not accepting of others
it implies that -
A You're not accepting yourself and
B That others will not likely accept you either.

However, when you radiate JOY, people are usually drawn to you. [Charisma]

At this point, I'm trying to convert vanilla  joy into Eudemonia by pursuing
Stoic values and virtues.

I wish you great success on your journey of discovery.


Long Live and Flourish,
Richard

On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 4:26 PM, Richard <pmsrxw@...> wrote:
> It matters for what reason we are doing things well. Why does it, as you say,
behoove us to do any task in a considerate manner, especially if we're being
compensated?»
>
> Ethics


We need to develop a constant awareness of where our interest really lies.

I've modified Keith's text (Stoic_Serenity, pg 30) to include the
concept of role.

We need to distinguish between our roles on the one hand, and the
_way_ we perform our roles on the other.

Each of our roles is performed to satisfy some interest we have.
Interests would include earning an income, gaining an education,
staying healthy, raising children, etc., etc.

Notice that interests concern indifferent things (with the singular
and unique exception of our interest to perfect our characters and
thereby to fully flourish and live happily).

But the _way_ we perform our role -- noting that the way we act in the
performance of our role is entirely distinct from the role itself --
concerns our capacity to act virtuously, to act in ways characteristic
of the person who has perfected their character. _This_, say the
Stoics, is what is good or bad, and this is what is or supreme
importance.


> Long Live and Flourish,
> Richard


Best wishes,
Dave

It should be studying Sellars and 'sleeping all through the night'.

 

I'll suggest another Stoic mental trick I use in such situations.

Epictetus says "if you want to make progress, be content to be thought a fool by others." I can generalize this to "if you want to make progress, be content to be demeaned by others," "if you want to make progress, be content to have other people get angry at you and insult you," "be content to be ignored," etc. etc.

The experience of discovering that others think poorly of me is one of the "worst" I can imagine, by which I mean that status-lowering experiences bring up all sorts of uncomfortable feelings for me. One of the goals of Stoicism is to raise my tolerance, so that experiences that used to make me unhappy no longer do so.

One of the psychological tricks for this is negative visualization. So what I do is try to imagine, as vividly as I can, the "bad" thing happening -- the worst-case scenario in which I find out that someone I respect and trust actually despises me, or that my wife and children lose respect for me, or whatever.

When such things do happen to me, they are not up to me, so it's irrational to wish them to be other than they are. In addition to just imagining these things happening and letting whatever bad feelings I would automatically experience wash over me, I then try to imagine myself accepting the experience as I would if I were making progress as a Stoic.

Doing this, over time, is a way of reducing both my initial reaction to dispreferred things happening, and the lag between my initial shock and dismay when something dispreferred happens and the attitude adjustment required to view the event as a Stoic.

--Glenn

V   L   A   D   T   H   E   G   N   O   S   I   S   M   A   N

           "The mind is not a vessel to be filled
                     but a fire to be kindled."
                             --Plutarch

G   L   E   N   N   T   H   O   M   A   S   D   A   V   I   S

On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Steve Stoker <otnac6@...> wrote:

 

Steve--

 

No, just agreeing with an idea certainly can't fix a problem.

 

And, ha, yes, I caught the little zing regarding ideals, and not thinking that we can't fix it

completely! Kidding...

 

Anyway, incremental for me here. I occasionally feel A LITTLE under-appreciated. But I get on

top of it, so to speak, very, very quickly! I use the discipline of assent/proper use of impressions.

See Keith's book for this...

 

Basically, I split myself in two, internally..."Okay, just had a thought that X is taking me for granted.

Who does he/she think heshe IS? Wait a minute...exactly what happened?" And then I do what I call

"state facts and name things correctly". THEN I either go over it in my head or write it down, question

answer style...what exactly was said, what exactly happened??? It may be that a checker at the grocery

store didn't acknowledge me quickly enough! It can be that juvenal at times...or it could be something

on a grander scale...but I do have some input, choice and responsibility not to drag other people into

my mind and blame THEM for how I feel.

 

I question the impression I have when it's uncomfortable, demonizing someone or something...

DID anything really BAD happen to me? Or was it my interpretation of events that caused the

discomfort? Usually, nothing bad happened, I've not been deprived of anything...usually, it's

just a matter of "people are disturbed NOT by what happens but by their interpretation of what happens".

 

I don't believe I'll every get to the point of NOT needing to do this. But then I don't have to. If I

spend a little time daily (almost, never ideal) with this internal questioning I have a smooTHER flow

of life.

 

It takes work to slow down habits of mind. And desire. But it can be done, incrementally and

not ideally (ha!), and maybe not completely.

 

Best,

Steve

From: Steve Marquis <stevemarquis@...>
To: stoics@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: [stoics] Status, respect, and going down the tubes

 

I think that is a fair assessment Steve.  And I think this in many variations is quite a common experience.

 

But more importantly I agree intellectually with the Stoic perspective that says this is based on a false value judgment (probably several).  I have agreed with that perspective for years.  And I still, though less often and not as severe, have those ā€˜feelingsā€™ (affect that follows from accepting certain beliefs).  To be free of this is going to take more than mere intellectual agreement.

 

We shouldnā€™t conclude just agreeing with an idea can fix such a problem.  And, we shouldnā€™t conclude that it is not possible to make progress (or even fix it completely, the ideal) because it is difficult.

 

What others think of one can have more serious consequences than mere hurt pride I might point out. So that perceived consequence (no one 'causes' our emotions, we choose them) is but the tip of the iceberg.

 

Live well,

Steve

From: Steve Stoker <otnac6@...>
To: "stoics@yahoogroups.com" <stoics@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, January 14, 2013 7:22:26 AM
Subject: Re: [stoics] Status, respect, and going down the tubes

Steve and Tom,

 

I've been thinking about what I dealt with 25 years ago, or so, what I'd posted regarding that

experience.

 

I've reread both of your emails.

 

I don't mean this as a judgment, as a final analysis, as psychologizing, or as something

that should be believed or acted upon but here goes:

 

From what you've both written and from what I wrote/experienced, it seems that the

common thread for all three of us was and is... 

 

...I'm not being treated by others as I believe I should

be treated. Others' attitudes toward me should be different from what they are. I'm basically

unhappy at this time because of this. If others would treat me differently, as I want them to,

I'd then be happy, or at least relatively content...

 

Is what I've said reasonably correct? Does it fit the current stuff that's going on?

 

Best,

Steve

From: Steve Marquis <stevemarquis@...>
To: stoics@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [stoics] Status, respect, and going down the tubes

 

Tom; Steve-

 

I am in situation like this right now.  Iā€™ve been an engineer for 30 years but am currently employed by an owner / boss whose background is construction management.  He is very blue collar and has no appreciation or understanding IMO for what I do.  The treatment I get reminds me of working as a teenager on construction.  This has escalated to the point where it might be prudent to dust off my resume.  A tough decision given my duty to feed my family in these poor economic times.

 

We are, even as mature adults, still inclined to dependency on the opinion of others.  This is the middle ground I believe in Maslowā€™s hierarchy (w/o looking it up).  Deficiency needs reflect oneā€™s complete enslavement to externals; social needs reflect a partial enslavement; and growth / self actualization needs reflect a recognition that oneā€™s true well being is not dependent on what is not in oneā€™s control.

 

We may not recognize our social dependency if our relationships are going well.  But there may come a time when no one, not oneā€™s peers, friends, family, or spouse will be supportive or think well of one.  Being alone like this is quite sobering.  Age / life experience helps.  Something like Stoicism that aims at personal autonomy can help more.  Just like facing the fact that one can die at any moment so too can the apparent support of others vaporize at any moment.  Recognizing these facts is a start but obviously doesnā€™t eliminate the bad feelings we have, even to depression, instantly.

 

This brings me to my second part:  changing our beliefs.  Obviously just agreeing with what is in a book or what someone has posted here doesnā€™t do it.  My own model for the difficulty of changing our mental habits is based on (2) premises:  mental habits are physically part of the brain in the form of neural pathways well traveled; most of these are in the ā€˜subā€™ or ā€˜unā€™ conscious and so are difficult to access at all let alone being able to recognize the situation prior to the false assent and bad feeling.

 

If anything can be done at all we have to do it for ourselves.  We can be coached.  This is what a good therapist will do.  But ultimately any change that is possible we have to instigate.  There is no other way.

 

As an example not long ago I was accused of driving too fast on our rural road.  I usually drove 40 mph in a zone posted at 25 mph.  Recognition of this alone required some self monitoring.  Anyway I decided quite independent of the neighborā€™s opinion to change my habit to drive 25 mph specifically through the congested area where someoneā€™s pet may dart out.  This was many months ago.  I am still working on it.  What I mean is if I am not consciously aware of my commitment to this change as I drive through this specific area I will be at 35-40 mph at least 1/3 to Ā½ the time.  The unconscious habit has been partially, but not completely, overwritten.  This too is very sobering and demonstrates that change is possible, but it requires much work.

 

Not all changes are this difficult.  I quit smoking as a teenager cold turkey from about a pack a day and never looked back.  Yet this is one of the most difficult of addictions for most people to break.

 

So 1) I believe we can change anything that has been formed in our unconscious by prior conscious choices and 2) those things we wish to change most, our self admitted worst habits, are likely to require quite an investment to do so.  Coaching may help and one thing to get over is fear or embarrassment of seeking therapy.  Seeking help is a positive step to self improvement and should not be seen as an admission to the world that one is defective in some way.  And, taking support from Stoic perfectionism, _everyone_ who is not a Sage is defective.  Welcome to the club.  We all have lots of company.  Letā€™s get on with making improvement.

 

So Steve I disagree with your rejection of the ā€˜idealā€™.  The benefit of an ideal is it can be defined easier and therefore gives a clear target to aim at.  This is one great advantage of normative self therapy like Stoicism as opposed to a descriptive only system like modern psychology, even CBT or REBT.  The problem is not in the idea of an ideal, but in oneā€™s attitude towards it.  We are blaming a quite innocent general concept for our own reactions and that, once again, is dependency on something not in our control.  I have absolutely no problem with Stoic perfectionism I assure you.  Along with that I am quite at ease with myself making incremental progress like you have suggested.  The two are quite compatible.  I doubt very much I will achieve Sagehood but Iā€™m not worried about it.  It still clarifies what I should be striving for.  An analogy I have used here many times is the backpacking trip up over a very steep ridge in the hot afternoon sun.  If I donā€™t have the goal clearly in mind I might waste effort going the wrong way or get discouraged altogether.  Meanwhile what keeps me going in the short term is aiming at the next switchback.  I promise myself no stopping until I get at least that far.  When I get there I attempt the next.  And so on until I really need water and a rest.  So setting intermediate goals keeps one motivated to make progress.  I am most likely to die before I reach the top.  So what.  How many switchbacks have I accomplished?  Certainly many more than I would have because _I started with the end clearly in mind_.

 

This is not any problem with perfectionism or idealism.  It is about our own habits of setting goals and also accepting who we and others are.  In fact Stoicism tells us to do just this.  From the perspective of the Whole everything is just as it should be.

 

Live well,

the other Steve

From: Thomas Zane <thomaszane63@...>
To: "stoics@yahoogroups.com" <stoics@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, January 12, 2013 6:07:42 PM
Subject: Re: [stoics] Status, respect, and going down the tubes

Hi Steve: Thank you for your insights and helpful comments. They meant a lot. I like your perspective of LESS and incremental progress. Believe me, I would take happily some incremental progress right now. It's a good way to look at it.... Tom

From: Steve Stoker <otnac6@...>
To: "stoics@yahoogroups.com" <stoics@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2013 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: [stoics] Status, respect, and going down the tubes

 

Hi Tom,

 

 'But when a glitch happens, I seem to lose my stoic perspective and behavior goes awful. "

 

Tom, this is an example of my not being concerned about ideals. I do the same thing you do,

go into a minor or major tail spin for awhile, wonder where all the wisdom went!...

 

But now rather than think I SHOULD NOT have reacted AT ALL, I ask if I have reacted

with less intensity than before and I ask If the time duration is less than it was "before".

 

I'm very happy to "settle" for incremental progress, incrementally less upsettedness,

incrementally less time spent in....whatever words we use to describe the uncomfortable

state. If I never get to an idealistic, "never react" state, at least I can incrementally react LESS

to these things over which I have little or no control.

 

Incremental, not either/or, at least for me. My opinion only! If things were only 0 or 100%, we wouldn't

have all those numbers in between....

 

Best,

Steve

From: Tom Zane <thomaszane63@...>
To: "stoics@yahoogroups.com" <stoics@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2013 5:55 AM
Subject: [stoics] Status, respect, and going down the tubes

 

I follow this forum faithfully and learn much from all of you. I understand what I read and believe it to be all true (the stoic principles, etc.). I believe that the values espoused here are the true ones we all should strive to follow. 

However, knowing all of this does not always permeate down to controlling my behavior. This weekend and coming week will be tough for me. My colleagues are invited to participate in some high level professional activities. I was not invited. I'm falling into a loop of perceiving me of not having the respect of colleagues, of my work not being valued, and feeling envious and jealous of their position in our field. I go dark, if you know what I mean. I hate this feeling. I know thinking this way is entirely in opposition to the stoic philosophy. I know it, but yet my thoughts are often out of control. 

I plan on reading a lot of our readings over the coming days in an attempt to stay afloat, but darn, I get made at myself for losing my composure and bearings. Seems like when I'm not confronted with such professional situations, I feel like I'm on course with my stoic learning. But when a glitch happens, I seem to lose my stoic perspective and behavior goes awful. 

Tom 

I found this quote on the internet

«Physical Pleasures can give a person Pleasure and Happiness to some degree, but
this cannot compete with the Elevated Pleasure that one can derive when one
toils in Wisdom.»

This seems to fit Philosophy in general and Stoicism in particular.
Long Live and Flourish,
Richard

Very true Ian. I always notice that most heroes in films are very stoic as well, whereas the 'losers' and bad guys are quite often the opposite.

I just received this Facebook newsfeed post:

«Be a light unto yourself. Look not for refuge in anyone besides yourself.» ~
Buddha

Seems fairly Stoic, N'est-ce pas?
Long Live and Flourish,
Richard

ā€œThe primary cause of unhappiness is never the situation but your thoughts
about it.ā€
ā€• Eckhart Tolle, A New Earth: Awakening to Your Life's Purpose

Eckhart Tolle Quotes (Author of A New Earth)

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/4493.Eckhart_Tolle

-----------------

As many of us will readily see,  this is almost a direct quote from Epictetus. 
And that Epictetus quote is the same one found in the writings of the late
Albert Ellis.  And it is that quote that first inspired me to check out "who was
Epictetus?"

To put this another way, many of the noble ideas put forth by New Agers and
Modern Buddhists can be traced back to the Classical Stoics.  I find this very
intriguing.

And so to an extent, Stoicism still lives to inspire many people today.

Long Live and Flourish,
Richard

Not even exactly cheap words, by the way. But it's good to know that Epictetus'
words are cashable in some way, stacked on a long shelf of indisputable
references, ready to be mixed up in a big bowl and boiled as many times as
deep-frozen (though the new age soup is better served tepid).

Cheers,
Guillaume.»

I'm not sure of this point.  If a Modern Christian theologian quotes Buddha, so
what? And what if an ancient Chrisitan Theologian quotes Stoicism?

Quite curious.  Is Tolle today somehow more rich and powerful than was Marcus
Aurelius was in his day?  So  If we question Tolle, why not question Marcus
Aurelius? And if we accept MA then why not ET?

At any rate the fellow renamed himself after Meister Echkart. I'm guessing that
he sees himself as more of a mystic than as a philosopher.

And from what I read, Epictetus ran a "successful" school.  Cato was a leading
bigshot in Rome. Zeno of Citium studied under different masters and amalgamated
their teachings.


Long Live and Flourish,
Richard