Dear Sheila;

You wouldn't happen to know the dates of the eight lectures recently
published as "The Fourth Dimension"? All I can find out is that they
are from 1905-1908, and I can't afford to buy any more 'repeats' that
I already have, just published under different titles.

Thanks for the note and any help you can give... busy times right
now, Rick

 

******* The complete lectures in the volume are those Steiner gave on Mar. 24, 1905, Mar. 31, 1905, May 17, 1905, May 24, 1905, May 31, 1905, June 7, 1905, Nov. 7, 1905, and Oct. 22, 1908----all in Berlin.

 

Then there are extracts dealing with higher dimensions taken from various other lectures given from 1906 to 1922.

-Starman

http://www.DrStarman.net

September 5, 2003

Note to self:

Tomorrow I will be looking toward the night sky.  Toward Pleiades in
fact.  I am not sure what the sky will have to offer but I would like
to put to paper some thoughts I have been having.  Most of what I
will say has to do with recent synchronicity.  It all ties to
thoughts I have been having since 9-11.

There was a crop circle at Tichborne, Hampshire that appeared on June
20, 1995 that shows a particular alignment of the planets that is to
occur tomorrow, September 6, 2003.  I started to think about this, as
at the time it was two weeks away.  I had recently felt compelled to
start watching the night sky so this idea resonated quite strongly.

I got the idea a few days later that I should be focusing on
Pleiades.  This is interesting because I don't really know how to
find M45.  I have the idea that I may end up looking where I am
supposed to if the weather cooperates.

It could also mean that I will miss it but someone with more
astronomical knowledge will see it and tell the world.  This brings
me to, I guess, the point.  I am already a believer and I don't know
if it is hope or what but it would be nice to have something to show
to others to help them along.  So on that note I will list some of
the things I have been thinking about that might tie in to this event.

One other note, the `asteroid' glyph shows a small moon like object
near Venus.  Venus doesn't have any moons so perhaps it is more
logical to focus on Venus.  My intuition led me to the Pleiades.  I
had the idea that the `moon' is more like grape shot in other crop
circles.  Very important but not very well understood yet.

Here are some pieces I hope to understand better after tomorrow:

The Number 5.
Pleiades and Blue.
Jupiter is Missing.

Things that could happen.  Not predictions but thoughts.

A G5 Solar storm?  Perhaps communications and power will be knocked
out in places all over the world.  The interesting thing about this
is with the recent blackouts in the United States and England people
will attempt to shrug this off.  You will have to choose to believe
this event has significance.

Perhaps it won't be obvious that anything has happened, and people
who are interested will have to fill in the blanks at a later time
when it is understood.  This will serve to confirm those who are
already paying attention, but will not be the wound for others to
probe.  Free will and choice have never been easy responsibilities.

I don't really have anymore predictions, but I would like to talk
about some thought threads that I have come across as I try to
imagine what might happen.

Steiner talked about ossification, that we are currently the most
condensed we will be.  I can't help but think this ties directly, in
terms of our reality, to a frequency shift.  Vibrations are changing,
and so our concept of time will change.  Not so much our concept but
the reality of time.  My wife said something that I can't escape.  We
were talking about who or what might be making the crop circles.  At
first she assumed that it had to be aliens.  I asked her if it was
possible that it might be ourselves in the future sending a message
back in time.

She surprised me with the thought that it might be a message from the
past.  After the shock of it passed it made a lot of sense.  If we
are still around in the future, why would we send a message back?  To
ourselves it would make no difference, the past happened and we would
be in the now of the future.  What if in the past people in the world
realized to late its mistakes,  and sent a warning cry out.  Just
maybe we are at a similar juncture that has occurred in the past and
the prevailing frequency of the world is resonating with the warning
or reminder from the past.  I understand this thought completely. I
am unable to articulate it completely, so I will leave it as it is.

I have only recently become aware of crop circles and just finished
Freddy Silva's book , "Secrets in the Fields."  What struck me about
some of the footnoted thinkers was that I have been exposed to most
of them recently, in the past year in fact.  Similar to Gary
Lachman's, "The Secret History of Consciousness" it seems I am
ensnared in a very distinct web of thinkers.  I hope I am able to
play my small part.

On a final note, thoughts are things.  Maybe that is all this was
really about.  I will be watching the night sky tomorrow.  Seeing
what there is to see.

Sincerely,

Mike

Dear Folks:
Thanks everso to Starman for your prompt reply. I'm interested in
confronting this book. The notion that Steiner ever encouraged the
idea of a 'fourth dimension' is totally false, and only adds to a
list of misconceptions that the "Astronomical-mathematical Section"
has laid at Steiner's feet over the years. This is actually
(consciously or unconsciously doesn't matter) a method that is well
know to the Desert Cult, and employed by them either in suit and tie,
or turban and robe; oddly enough in a lecture cycle where he also
said, referring to higher perception "One turns back to the second
dimension and the third disappears;" (I'll post the full quote),
Steiner described this 'occult imprisonment' clearly, as follows:


    "I hope you will not take this as a lack of respect for science -
I fully recognise science - but compared with the truth, such things
as these, though they cannot be too highly praised and appreciated in
their brilliancy at the present time, are yet but dilettante as
compared with the reality. On the other hand they show how man's
thought itself drives him, with abstract concepts of light-radiations
and electrons, to enter a region in which the reality is to be found.
It is simply a question of coming to the relity, and of bringing into
all the ideas arising in all directions, and of which no use can be
made, that impulse which drives even modern research into Spiritual
domains. In certain occult circles foolish practices are carried on.
People are taught all sorts of occult doctrines which do not lead to
the ultimate point in which this life originated. They are given
pictures, but are not led to the origin of the pictures, to that of
which they are the image. Thus they are surrounded in their souls
with a world of pictures, instead of having the feeling that they
must learn through these pictures to know the Universe.
    "For this reason, after publishing my book `Theosophy', I followed
it up with `Occult Science'. In the latter, what had been presented
in pictures in `Theosophy' is carried into the reality of the Stellar
world, in the evolution through Saturn, Sun and Moon. These two books
complete each other.
    "If in any sphere a man is given nothing but pictures, he will be
surrounded by them.
    "People who carry on wrong occult practices, do this with those
pupils of whom they have not gained complete possession, and by this
means the latter are, as it were, occultly imprisoned. In these
occult prisons man is surrounded by pictures which are not
comprehensible to him and from which he cannot escape. By this means
many evil occult practices have been and still are being carried on.
There are also Spiritual beings who lead man, or part of man, into
these occult prisons. This is a quite similar phenomenon. These
Spiritual beings are set free in nature if we have no Spiritual
understanding of it, and regard it in such a way that the atomistic
processes are taken as being naturalistic, which means denying the
spirit in nature. The so-called Ahrimanic beings, striving in
opposition to man, then become active in nature and deceive man with
all sorts of pictures; thus he may be led into occult captivity by
these Ahrimanic Spiritual beings.
    "A great number of what are to-day known as scientific conceptions
of nature, - not the scientific facts (these are good), are nothing
but the pictures of an universal captivity, the danger of which is
hanging over the head of humanity. Such a danger exists in the fact
that man is everywhere surrounded by atomic and molecular pictures.
An occult custody surrounds us with these pictures and we cannot
perceive the free Spiritual and stellar pictures, because the world
of the atoms forms, as it were, the psychic walls which enclose us in
a prison in which we are Spiritually confined." (30 Aug. 1923, in:
The Evolution of the World and of Humanity, 1989, pp.237-238)

Dear Folks;
              Here is are a couple of quotes where Steiner clearly
states his aversion to the concept of a 'fourth dimension'. I'll post
more as I can:


    "...Anyone entering the spiritual world by the methods described
above, having attained the power of touch, will know how to
distinguish whether he merely imagined his experiences while
exercising active thought, or whether he actually perceived by means
of it. Even in ordinary life we can distinguish the difference
between awkwardly burning our fingers in a flame, and picturing the
event afterwards. There is a lively difference; the one experience
really hurts while the other does not. In a higher domain the same
difference exists between what we may imagine concerning the higher
worlds, and what is really experienced therein.
    "Now the first thing a man experiences in this way is true
knowledge.... Our past experiences, which can usually only be called
into our consciousness in picture form, then present themselves as a
tableau in which what is long since past, lives in the present. Just
as persons who have had a shock through being in danger of death by
drowning sometimes see - as admitted even by materialistically minded
men - a psychic picture of their life on earth; such a picture
appears to the soul of one who has rendered his thinking active. It
begins from the time in his earth-life when he first began to think
and continues to the present time. Time becomes space. That which was
the past, becomes the present. A picture is before him; the
characteristic of which is - I shall speak of this again in
tomorrow's lecture, - that because it resembles a picture, he still
has a sort of sensation of space; but this is only a feeling, for the
space thus experienced lacks the third dimension. He no longer
experiences a third dimension, only space in two dimensions; so that
he perceives pictorially. That is the reason I call this cognition
imaginative cognition for it works as does painting, in two
dimensions only; it is a pictorial cognition, working in two
dimensions.
    "You may wonder, if I stand there and experience two dimensions,
what happens if I go on and once more experience in three dimensions?
    "There is no difference between them. The experience of the third
dimension falls away altogether. I shall later on have occasion to
speak of the fact that in our age, because we are no longer conscious
of these things, people try to find the fourth dimension, thinking
thereby to enter the realm of the spiritual. The truth is that when
we advance from the physical into the spiritual, instead of
discovering a fourth dimension, the third falls away.... -so it will
represent an advance in the inner comprehension of the world when it
becomes known that on entering the spiritual world we do not go from
the first, second, and third dimension into the fourth, but turn back
to the second and, indeed, as we shall see, even return to the first.
That is a truth. According to the external conception of the world
prevalent in our time, which reckons numerically in a quite external
way, as there is a first, second and third dimension, there must
necessarily be a fourth; but this is not the case here. One turns
back to the second dimension and the third disappears; the student
then gains a true imaginative cognition which at first appears in his
own self as a life-tableau, so that he surveys, at the present moment
as it were, in mighty pictures, all that he went through inwardly
during his earth-life." (19 Aug. 1923,in: The Evolution of the World
and of Humanity, 1989, pp.16-18)

    "To the Imaginative and Inspirational consciousness things come to
light here which can perfectly well be understood by the normal
healthy human reason, but which, in our present civilisation, are
regarded with a very great deal of prejudice. Indeed it requires a
certain freedom from prejudice to grasp the fact that everything in
the physical world is three dimensional, and is fundamentally
experienced in three dimensions, and that whatever is to be impressed
in the etheric body must pass from the plastic into the pictorial
form, from the three dimensional into the two dimensional. For as
soon as we enter the imaginative world we have nothing more to do
with three dimensions, and still less with four dimensions as is
believed to-day by certain scientists who have deviated from the main
track; we are there concerned with two dimensions only. The reason
why it is so difficult to conceive of what is thus experienced lies
in the fact that in our earthly experiences we are accustomed to deal
only with three dimensions. We picture everything in three
dimensions, and therefore when we are required to find a transition
into two dimensions, we say: Well; but the two dimensions are
included in the three; the two dimensions of a surface may be such
that the third dimension is also there.
    "This cannot be the case when we enter the Imaginative world; for
no matter what a surface may be, there can be no third dimension
there, it is no longer taken into account the moment we enter the
etheric, Imaginative world. Hence mathematicians must transform all
the equations of ether, so that they do not refer to the three-
dimensional but to the two-dimensional world. This is merely
interpolated for mathematicians.
    "Now if we wish to enter the world accessible to Inspiration, that
world in which we live as egos between going to sleep and waking, we
find it to be a one dimensional world; we are concerned with a world
on one dimension only. The transition into that world of a single
dimension, which presupposes that the student shall have acquired the
quality of Inspiration, of perceiving the Spiritual world in which we
live between going to sleep and waking, the understanding of that
world was in all ages possessed by the so-called science of
Initiation." (26 Aug. 1923, in: The Evolution of the World and of
Humanity, 1989, pp.188-189)

                                **********************************
    The Sun, according to the Doctor, is under the influence of the constellation VIRGO from Sept. 8th to Oct. 12th  in our era. A symbolic image of the VIRGIN done by an artist from Steiner's sketches & indications is inserted below.

 

 

Dear Folks;
            Steiner, like any realistic scientist, always wanted us
to 'collect and correlate items of concrete knowledge'. Here is
another fact that relates to the direct methods referred to under
this heading:

     "I hope you will not take what has been said to-day as
propagandism of any sort, but look upon it as expressing existing
facts. A man certainly must and ought to live with his times and when
anything is described, he should not look upon it as all that is to
be said on the subject; he should learn to strike the balance. It is
quite natural that the world to-day should be confronted with
impulses leading entirely to materialism. That cannot be prevented,
it is connected with the deep needs of the age. But a counterbalance
must be established. One very prominent means of driving man into
materialism is the cinematograph. It has not been observed from this
standpoint; but there is no better school for materialism than the
cinema. For what one sees there is not reality as men see it. Only an
age which has so little idea of reality as this age of ours, which
worships reality as an idol in a material sense, could believe that
the cinema represents reality. Any other age would consider whether
men really walk along the street as seen at the cinema; people would
ask themselves whether what they saw at such a performance really
corresponded to reality. Ask yourself frankly and honourably, what is
really most like what you see in the street: a picture painted by an
artist, an immobile picture, or the dreadful sparkling pictures of
the cinematograph. If you put the question to yourselves quite
honourably, you will admit that what the artist reproduces in a state
of rest is much more like what you see. Hence, while people are
sitting at the cinema, what they see there does not make its way into
the ordinary faculty of perception, it enters a deeper, more material
stratum than we usually employ for our perception. A man becomes
etherically goggle-eyed at the cinema; he develops eyes like those of
a seal, only much larger, I mean larger etherically. This works in a
materialising way, not only upon what he has in his consciousness,
but upon his deepest sub-consciousness. Do not think I am abusing the
cinematograph; I should like to say once more that it is quite
natural it should exist, and it will attain far greater perfection as
time goes on. That will be the road leading to materialism. But a
counterbalance must be established, and that can only be created in
the following way. With the search for reality which is being
developed in the cinema, with this descent below sense-perception,
man must at the same time develop an ascent above it, an ascent into
Spiritual reality. Then the cinema will do him no harm, and he can
see it as often as he likes. But unless the counterbalance is there,
people will be led by such things as these, not to have their proper
relation to the earth, but to become more and more closely related to
it, until at last they are entirely shut off from the Spiritual
world." (27 Feb. 1917, in: Cosmic and Human Metamorphoses, 1989, pp.
44-45)

Now, add to this the 'unreality presented as reality' that digital
special effects are able to instill, as Steiner says, not in peoples
consciousness, but in their subconscious.

Take care, and give care.... Rick.

Dear Rick and Friends,

Thank you for bringing this to our attention, since it seems to me,
hopefully erroneously, few are aware of these facts. Steiner spoke quite a
bit regarding the deleterious effects of movies upon our inner being and
the influences thereby brought to bear upon not only ourselves, but
mankind, Spiritual Beings and the entire universe. I've found *Cosmic &
Human Metamorphosis* to be one of those "special" works speaking so very
much to me, but perhaps we all have certain works striking very deeply into
our very souls. It was also through this work that I understood something
regarding organ transplants, as well as many other concepts.

Cheers,

Sheila

> Dear Folks;
>            Steiner, like any realistic scientist, always wanted us
> to 'collect and correlate items of concrete knowledge'. Here is
> another fact that relates to the direct methods referred to under
> this heading:
>
>     "I hope you will not take what has been said to-day as
> propagandism of any sort, but look upon it as expressing existing
> facts. A man certainly must and ought to live with his times and when
> anything is described, he should not look upon it as all that is to
> be said on the subject; he should learn to strike the balance. It is
> quite natural that the world to-day should be confronted with
> impulses leading entirely to materialism. That cannot be prevented,
> it is connected with the deep needs of the age. But a counterbalance
> must be established. One very prominent means of driving man into
> materialism is the cinematograph. It has not been observed from this
> standpoint; but there is no better school for materialism than the
> cinema. For what one sees there is not reality as men see it. Only an
> age which has so little idea of reality as this age of ours, which
> worships reality as an idol in a material sense, could believe that
> the cinema represents reality. Any other age would consider whether
> men really walk along the street as seen at the cinema; people would
> ask themselves whether what they saw at such a performance really
> corresponded to reality. Ask yourself frankly and honourably, what is
> really most like what you see in the street: a picture painted by an
> artist, an immobile picture, or the dreadful sparkling pictures of
> the cinematograph. If you put the question to yourselves quite
> honourably, you will admit that what the artist reproduces in a state
> of rest is much more like what you see. Hence, while people are
> sitting at the cinema, what they see there does not make its way into
> the ordinary faculty of perception, it enters a deeper, more material
> stratum than we usually employ for our perception. A man becomes
> etherically goggle-eyed at the cinema; he develops eyes like those of
> a seal, only much larger, I mean larger etherically. This works in a
> materialising way, not only upon what he has in his consciousness,
> but upon his deepest sub-consciousness. Do not think I am abusing the
> cinematograph; I should like to say once more that it is quite
> natural it should exist, and it will attain far greater perfection as
> time goes on. That will be the road leading to materialism. But a
> counterbalance must be established, and that can only be created in
> the following way. With the search for reality which is being
> developed in the cinema, with this descent below sense-perception,
> man must at the same time develop an ascent above it, an ascent into
> Spiritual reality. Then the cinema will do him no harm, and he can
> see it as often as he likes. But unless the counterbalance is there,
> people will be led by such things as these, not to have their proper
> relation to the earth, but to become more and more closely related to
> it, until at last they are entirely shut off from the Spiritual
> world." (27 Feb. 1917, in: Cosmic and Human Metamorphoses, 1989, pp.
> 44-45)
>
> Now, add to this the 'unreality presented as reality' that digital
> special effects are able to instill, as Steiner says, not in peoples
> consciousness, but in their subconscious.
>
> Take care, and give care.... Rick.

Hi all,
I have just joined your group, sounds interesting,  my kids went to
steiner school many years ago.
A question I wouold like to ask that has been bothering me over
time.What is steiner's postion on reincarnation and what are his
reasons and or proofs

Dear Folks;
              I'd like to collect pertinent comments by Steiner on
dream consciousness and its relation to clairvoyance. The following
is from a lecture cycle available at elib.com:


    "The conditions I have been describing are dream conditions, and
they show us quite clearly that in dream consciousness man falls
asunder; his ego consciousness, his unity of consciousness, does not
remain intact, and his dream is in reality always a reflection, a
symbolical reflection of what is going on inside his bodily nature.
    "For the disciple of occultism it is by no means merely a question
of passing from ordinary waking consciousness to dream consciousness —
— there would be nothing unusual in that, No, he must make the
transition to a totally different condition of consciousness. By
practising the exercises outlined in earlier lectures of this course —
— through suppression, that is, of the intellect, the will and the
memory —— he has to get free of himself and attain to a completely
new consciousness.
    "Although, as I have said, this new consciousness is not a dream
consciousness, yet if one has no knowledge of clairvoyant
consciousness, dream consciousness can help one to come to a fairly
good understanding of it. For we can approach it in the following
manner. Suppose we ask ourselves: What is it within him that man
perceives in dream? then we must answer: Whatever is painful or out
of order. A moment's reflection will show us that ordinary normal
conditions are not perceived by dream consciousness, If a man is
perfectly healthy in his upper and middle man, if everything is in
order there, then he sleeps a normal healthy sleep; one cannot in
ordinary circumstances —— observe, I say advisedly, in ordinary
circumstances —— expect that his peaceful sleep will be forcibly
interrupted with dreams. Now the path that has to be taken by
clairvoyant consciousness is one that leads through stages and
conditions that are similar to those of dream consciousness. Only,
these stages are attained instead by occult training, and it is
actually the case that in clairvoyance man does not merely come to a
knowledge of the ordinary external painful conditions of his inside,
but succeeds in perceiving also its normal conditions, which usually
disappear from our consciousness in peaceful sleep. The pupil in
clairvoyance comes to a knowledge of these conditions. In other
words, he learns to know his brain, his head man, by learning to
perceive it inwardly. Similarly, he comes to know his middle man. In
the same way as in certain dreams man perceives when asleep his head
and middle man, so has the pupil in clairvoyance to attain in the
course of his training to a knowledge of his middle and upper man".
(9 June 1912, in: Man in the Light of Occultism, Theosophy and
Philosophy, 1989, pp. 125-126)


    "THE attainment of occult knowledge —— it is necessary we should
remind ourselves of the fact now and again —— is no child's play; and
if anyone approaches it with the idea that it will offer him theories
to which he can either remain indifferent or, if they are not so
remote as all that, still theories that require no more than the
intellect to grasp them, he will find he is very much mistaken.
    "We have been considering the human form —— to all appearances
something quite external. And yet I have told you that it is this
human form, as we have described it in its three members, which the
student in occultism must take for his starting-point. He must —— in
most cases —— begin with the feelings and impressions that come to
him from a study of the human form, because in so doing he takes his
start from something that is as independent as possible of the inner
life.
    "There is as a matter of fact another possibility, and it is
sometimes even desirable, not only for the theosophist, but also for
the occultist, —— namely, to start from the inner life of soul. We
are, however, then brought face to face with an almost insurmountable
obstacle. As you know, we have in our inner man not only what was
already present there when Earth evolution began, but throughout our
incarnations upon Earth spiritual beings and forces have contributed
all the time to its upbuilding and development. Ever since primeval
times, Luciferic and Ahrimanic forces have had their part in all the
work that has been done upon our inner man. If you take this into
consideration —— and you must do so, for it is true —— then you will
see that were we to take our start from the inner man, there would be
some uncertainty as to whether we should get free of the Luciferic
and Ahrimanic forces, or whether we should not rather remain
entangled in their influences and these then find their way into our
occult vision. Luciferic and Ahrimanic forces can easily penetrate
into the soul without man's being aware of it. Many things that go to
make up the content of our life of soul, —— we may think them to be
exceedingly good, and yet they may not be so at all, so mixed up are
they with the influences exerted upon us by Lucifer and Ahriman." (10
June, 1912, in: Man in the Light of Occultism, Theosophy and
Philosophy, 1989, pp. 142-143)

Take care and give care, Rick

>Dear Sheila, & Folks;
                            Thanks for the reply; I'd be very
interested in references to Steiner's other comments re: film. I know
that he warned about recordings as having deleterious, attractive
influences on departed souls (i.e., attracting them back to earthly
affairs), due to the penetrating power of voice, but I haven't
referenced that either. As a musician, I had an old prejudice
about 'dead guys' clogging up the industry, and disallowing the young
artists from making a reasonable living, or often even being heard;
but Steiner added quite another dimension to the problem!
          I'd also appreciate your pointing to which Steiner comments
made you think of the issue of transplants as a 'health' method...
way back when, I wondered (and still do) how many otherwise healthy
children starve to death for the money spend keeping deathly
sick 'rich' folks going. Bad, bad Karma there. Also, have you
noticed? SARS and West Nile Virus are practically hysterical in the
press. I figure that's why the hundreds of sick US forces personnel
in Iraq have 'deadly pneumonia' instead of SARS - symptoms are the
same, death rate is the same (low), but if you said SARS, the press
would have to talk about it for months, whereas 'deadly pneumonia,
well... I've seen it reported once on CBS, then you don't have to
talk about it. And up here in Canada we've had 2 deaths from WNV...
but one of them was a 92 year old with pneumonia -But he died from
WEST NILE. Even a farce like that has to be talked up.

Take care and give care, Rick

Dear Dr. Starman;
                     From the dates you kindly posted, I take it that
the book doesn't contain the 1923 quote I last posted, but I was
wondering if the 1922 extract was from the "Astronomy" course and if
so, did it include the stated disinclination to use the concept
fourth dimension, with the preference stated as to think in terms of
a negative third dimension, because... well, if the book doesn't
include this view, I'll post the text (it's at elib forum). Also,
Steiner said some really crucial things about the qualities of the
three dimensions, that in fact there is no 'abstract, equal' three
dimensions except in mathematical fantasy, etc. I'm sure you know the
point, and there's no doubt this has more real importance than
saddling Steiner with a concept that he clearly disagreed with... at
least, I'm waiting for as clear evidence of his support as I have for
his disagreement!

Take care and give care, Rick

Dear Rick and All,

About Steiner's statements regarding the harm movies [and I'd guess TV
might also fall into the same category?] can cause, I don't recall where I
came across that point, but it seems to me he was speaking of the effects
upon man and the Spiritual Worlds and Beings of the emotions elicited from
us by this medium. In other words, our emotions, thoughts and feelings have
a direct effect upon the spiritual worlds, and certainly movies bring these
out as well as these not having a basis in fact since they are not due to
real life experiences we have.  I'd agree about recordings, Rick, which I
seem to feel Steiner referred to as "canned" music, speech, etc. as opposed
to a real performance seen and heard "in person."  Since I've played piano
most of my life, it was also interesting to me to read Steiner seemed to
place the piano "lower on the scale" of musical instruments, but it seems
to do with the absence of human breath [pneumotosophy, if I haven't errred
in spelling] being involved as one would find in the wind instruments.
Steiner seemed to me to compare music at times with the "Music of the
Spheres," and he certainly loved good music.

About the health issue I seemed to gain from "Human and Cosmic
Metamorphosis," it was during the time I was working in medicine in
relation to transplants and his words "liver is not always liver" opened up
a vast world for me! I could "see," so to say, the world seemingly adapting
to the concept of Body Parts Sold Here as we do to Auto Parts Sold Here -
clear and simple without regard to the enormously vast spiritual
implications involved. It's been my experience that most transplants are
not often used for old sick rich people, but for children. It all gives me
the feeling of Frankensteins being created, and for me it's an example of a
seeming "good" actually being "harmful" instead.

You mention SARS and West Nile Fever, both of which appear to be among the
so-called "arising diseases," so to say, as is HIV/AIDS. Off and on there
have been many diseases seemingly standing out more than perhaps others may
be, and I wonder if perhaps the potential as well as the newness of such
mostly "unheard of before" conditions may play a part in publicizing these
things. The potential deadliness of these things is definitely to be taken
seriously, it seems, as well as their seeming to be par for the course in
some way for these current times. Twice I myself have survived pneumonia as
well as other diseases and I feel many more exoteric as well as esoteric
diseases will be playing far more important roles in our lives and in the
world itself, but my feelings on these matters may perhaps be slanted due
to my work.

Next time, maybe we could hear more about your music? It's certainly a
great part of my life.

Cheers!
Sheila

> >Dear Sheila, & Folks;
>                            Thanks for the reply; I'd be very
> interested in references to Steiner's other comments re: film. I know
> that he warned about recordings as having deleterious, attractive
> influences on departed souls (i.e., attracting them back to earthly
> affairs), due to the penetrating power of voice, but I haven't
> referenced that either. As a musician, I had an old prejudice
> about 'dead guys' clogging up the industry, and disallowing the young
> artists from making a reasonable living, or often even being heard;
> but Steiner added quite another dimension to the problem!
>          I'd also appreciate your pointing to which Steiner comments
> made you think of the issue of transplants as a 'health' method...
> way back when, I wondered (and still do) how many otherwise healthy
> children starve to death for the money spend keeping deathly
> sick 'rich' folks going. Bad, bad Karma there. Also, have you
> noticed? SARS and West Nile Virus are practically hysterical in the
> press. I figure that's why the hundreds of sick US forces personnel
> in Iraq have 'deadly pneumonia' instead of SARS - symptoms are the
> same, death rate is the same (low), but if you said SARS, the press
> would have to talk about it for months, whereas 'deadly pneumonia,
> well... I've seen it reported once on CBS, then you don't have to
> talk about it. And up here in Canada we've had 2 deaths from WNV...
> but one of them was a 92 year old with pneumonia -But he died from
> WEST NILE. Even a farce like that has to be talked up.
>
> Take care and give care, Rick

Hi, Gabrielle-

Yes, Steiner believed in reincarnation. You can read more about it at
OpenWaldorf:

  http://www.openwaldorf.com/anthroposophy.html

Also, you can search Steiner's writings from www.elib.com on reincarnation at
Google:

  http://www.google.com/search?q=reincarnation+site:elib.com&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-
8

Good luck!

John
john@...

--- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "gabrielleann01" <gabriell@w...> wrote:
> Hi all,
> I have just joined your group, sounds interesting,  my kids went to
> steiner school many years ago.
> A question I wouold like to ask that has been bothering me over
> time.What is steiner's postion on reincarnation and what are his
> reasons and or proofs

-Hi Zoe.
I've been studying Anthroposophy for about 6 years.
WQelcome.
I use the medicine also.
I live not far fromforest row and know Michael hall.
Which area are you.
e-mail me: porlnite@.... and I will elaborate further

Derek

Dear Folks;
             The following is available at elib.com under the lecture
cycle 'Spiritual Beings in the Heavenly Bodies and the Kingdoms of
Nature', and occurs in Chapter 2. It is a worthwhile caution Dr.
Steiner gave while discussing and describing a consciousness that
could awaken while the body was in a sleeping state. I think the
recommendation could apply to many people in many states of mind...

  In every esoteric development it is specially important that
everything should be so adjusted that two things that man has in
ordinary life should not be lost — which he might however very easily
lose in esoteric development if not rightly guided. If rightly guided
he will not lose them. First, he should not lose the recollection of
any of the events of his present incarnation, as ordinarily retained
in his memory. The connection with memory must not be destroyed. This
connection with memory means very much more in the sphere of
occultism than it does in the sphere of ordinary life. In ordinary
life we only understand by memory, the power of looking back and not
losing consciousness of the important events of one's life. In
occultism a right memory means that a man only values with his
perceptions and feelings what he has already accomplished in the
past, so that he applies no other value to himself or to his deeds
than the past deeds themselves entitle. Let us understand this quite
correctly, for this is extremely important. If a man in the course of
his occult development were suddenly driven to say to himself "I am
the reincarnation of this or the other spirit," — without there being
any justification for it through any action of his — then his memory
in an occult sense would be interrupted. An important principle in
occult development is that of attributing no other merit to oneself,
than what comes from one's actions in the physical world in the
present incarnation. That is extremely important. Any other merit
must only come on the basis of a higher development, which can only
be attained if one first of all stands firmly on the ground that one
esteems oneself for nothing but what one has accomplished in this
incarnation. This is quite natural if we look at the matter
objectively; for what we have accomplished in the present incarnation
is also the result of earlier incarnations; it is that which Karma
has, so far, made out of us. What Karma is still making of us we must
first bring about; we must not add that to our value. In short, if we
would set a right value on ourselves, we can only do so, at the
beginning of esoteric development, if we ascribe merit only to what
is inscribed in our memory as our past. That is the one element which
we must preserve, if our ego is not to sleep while our astral body is
awake.

The second thing which we as men of the present day must not lose is
the degree of conscience we possess in the external world. Here again
is something which it is extremely important to observe. You must
have often experienced that someone you know has gone through an
occult development, and if it is not guided and conducted in the
right way, you find that, in relation to conscience, your friend
takes things much more lightly than he did before his occult
training. His education, his social connection guided him before, so
that he did this thing or that, or dared not do it. After beginning
an occult development, many people begin to tell lies who never did
so before, and as regards questions of conscience, they take things
more lightly. We ought not to lose an iota of the conscience we
possess. As regards memory, we must only value ourselves according to
what we have already become; not according to any reliance on the
future, or on what we are still going to do. As regards conscience,
we must retain the same degree as we acquired in the ordinary
physical world. If we retain these two elements in our consciousness:
a healthy memory which does not deceive us into believing ourselves
to be other than our actions prove us to be, and a conscience which
does not allow us morally to take things more lightly than before, —
indeed if possible we should take them more seriously — if we retain
these two qualities, our ego will never be asleep when our astral
body is awake.

Hello Zoe!

Welcome to this site and to the beginning of a connection with Waldorf
Education. I would recommend that you look up lots of Waldorf oriented websites
and
homeschool groups with a Waldorf orientation. It is unfortunate that money
does stand in the way for many people, but it can just be an obstacle that
propels one in the real intended direction. There are lots of people who cannot
send
their child to a Waldorf school but who find creative ways to bring the
elements and awareness into their lives and to find others to work and create
with.
Try to contact the Waldorf schools nearest to you and ask for a connection to
people on the waiting list who may be relying on each other for support.

As far as the popular cultural influence on your children, keep in mind that
it will always be there. Just try to bring creative experiences into your
family's life and expose the children to experiences which show them that there
are many children and young people who are courageously walking their own path.
It doesn't have to be a negative thing, or an "either/or" situation. Just let
them know that they are free to pursue their true selves and that they can
find friends and companions who share the quest and that they have your full
support always.

Also, don't let the focus be only on them. They need to have your example.
Stay true to yourself and honor all creative impulses within you. Let them see
the struggle and the process, and don't worry about "success" in any common
sense of the word.

Life is always a balancing act. There is the "ideal" and the "practical" and
the creative life is finding out how to combine them in positive ways.

There is much help in the human and spiritual world for your quest. You are
not alone by any means.

Best wishes,
Christine

Dear Sheila, and Folks;

Yes, I do remember Steiner saying that, although I also vaguely
remember that his view of its evolution was surprising. Sheila, maybe
you could look into it in your collection; I have reviewed a few of
his cycles, but passed them on to interested (hopefully) musicaal
compatriots at the time.

Also, and not because I am a drummer and scientist, I remember he
commented that rhythm is the science of the future!

I spent a couple of years learning piano, and a year on the trumpet,
in the late 50's early sixties, before I settled into drumming. I
worked professional full-time in rock'n'roll bar bands 68-72, before
I returned to field ecology, and for 20 years used music part-tiume
to help support hopelessly underfunded field research. I still get to
play about once a week with a rockabilly, blues, country band, but
the largest town within a 100 mile drive is 5000 people, and that's
the Wikwemikong unceded First Nation, so making money and playing
often isn't really an option.

It would be nice to see some of Steiner's really pertinent quotes
again, maybe someone could put some up?

Take care, and give care, Rick

Dear Rick and All,

ACK! Rick, that's like asking me to find a needle in a haystack! :) It
seems to me Steiner mentions this about music and other arts perhaps in his
"The Mission of Art" or "Art in the Light of Mystery Wisdom" but even here,
I may have gotten the titles of these lectures wrong. I've been able to
download [FREE, too! :)] many wonderful articles, lectures and books from
the online electronic library at http://www.elib.com/Steiner and you might
want to take a look. I don't remember about rhythm being the science of the
future, which is no surprise, given the enormous wealth of his works! With
a red face, I often try to excuse myself for ignorance on all too many
issues! :)  But think about rhythm [she says to herself and others...] - we
have rhythm in the beating of our hearts, our pulse and on and on, so it
certainly is a very critical part of us and the Universe! I wasn't
surprised the other day to come across a newspaper article of "tone" being
heard from a black hole, and I wondered if that might possibly be what
Steiner and others call The Music of the Spheres? Regardless, it's
wonderful you play drums, and have your background in piano and trumpet:
rhythm, touch and breath plus much else.

Now where in Canada are you? You have my curiousity after mentioning
Wikwemikong unceaded First  Nation! Is it Indian? For awhile, I lived on a
Mohawk Reservation along the St. Lawrence - the St. Regis - and it was
absolutely fascinating to me!!!! I loved Canada very much, but find British
Columbia warmer and now California boiling! :)

Cheers!

Sheila
>
> Dear Sheila, and Folks;
>
> Yes, I do remember Steiner saying that, although I also vaguely
> remember that his view of its evolution was surprising. Sheila, maybe
> you could look into it in your collection; I have reviewed a few of
> his cycles, but passed them on to interested (hopefully) musicaal
> compatriots at the time.
>
> Also, and not because I am a drummer and scientist, I remember he
> commented that rhythm is the science of the future!
>
> I spent a couple of years learning piano, and a year on the trumpet,
> in the late 50's early sixties, before I settled into drumming. I
> worked professional full-time in rock'n'roll bar bands 68-72, before
> I returned to field ecology, and for 20 years used music part-tiume
> to help support hopelessly underfunded field research. I still get to
> play about once a week with a rockabilly, blues, country band, but
> the largest town within a 100 mile drive is 5000 people, and that's
> the Wikwemikong unceded First Nation, so making money and playing
> often isn't really an option.
>
> It would be nice to see some of Steiner's really pertinent quotes
> again, maybe someone could put some up?
>
> Take care, and give care, Rick

Hello Sheila, Rick and Everyone,

Sorry for jumping into the middle of this conversation - not one I have been
following - but I am particularly sensitive to the issue of music lately and I
also saw that article, Sheila. It said that they have calculated the black
hole to be emitting a perfect B flat at 57 octaves below middle C. Really sends
shivers down my spine. Brings to mind the movie "Contact" and all of the
search for intelligent life research being done. We are listening for sounds
from
space, but maybe they didn't consider that the sounds they are looking for
might be inaudible to the human ear. Maybe they should recruit some dogs on the
project! (Just being facetious) :  )

But the fact that it IS a recognizable harmonic note on a human scale is
really exciting. Knowing about the "music of the spheres" and
"extra-terrestrial"
lifeforms is one thing. Seeing the possiblility of "proving" their existence
somewhere down the road is exciting. Alas, as with Christianity, I believe the
quote is, " For those who will not believe, no proof is possible; for those
who will believe, no proof is necessary." I forget where the quote comes from.

Yet in our "scientific" era, perhaps we will see connection with spiritual
science evolve and more and more people learning that reality is in between
these extremes. Neither a mind closed like a steel trap or mindless faith is
going
to help us as the world evolves, only a truly scientific approach which looks
for proof based on the faith that what we seek to find is actually there in
the first place. All great scientific and human discoveries have had this
basis. How can one discover something unless one believes that it is there in
the
first place?

On a slightly related subject - my current pet peeve is this music industry
campaign against music file sharing. Really pisses me off. Separate e-mail,
long ranting possible if anyone is interested.

Best wishes,
Christine :  )

HI Franky

Yes I have heard of Camphill and read a book about it.  It sounds fab, I met
some friends who were house mothers and it seems a wonderful life.  I would
love to go and visit one, but I dont know of any local to me.
Zoe
----- Original Message -----
From: <steiner@yahoogroups.com>
To: <steiner@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 2:30 PM
Subject: [steiner] Digest Number 590


>
> Post to steiner@egroups.com
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> steiner-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
> Search the archives of the group at:
> http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html
>
> Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
> http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are 4 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Re: Re: I'm New and saying HI
>            From: "eurythmy" <eurythmy@...>
>       2. Music is the art of the future
>            From: "rickbobbs" <island.bobbs@...>
>       3. RE: Music is the art of the future
>            From: "LilOleMissy" <lilolemissy@...>
>       4. Re: Music is the art of the future
>            From: golden3000997@...
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
>    Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:27:43 +0100
>    From: "eurythmy" <eurythmy@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: I'm New and saying HI
>
> Hello Zoe
> Do you know about camphill in England, and special schools like St
Schristopher in Bristol.
> Franky
>
>
> [This message contained attachments]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
>    Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 01:29:23 -0000
>    From: "rickbobbs" <island.bobbs@...>
> Subject: Music is the art of the future
>
> Dear Sheila, and Folks;
>
> Yes, I do remember Steiner saying that, although I also vaguely
> remember that his view of its evolution was surprising. Sheila, maybe
> you could look into it in your collection; I have reviewed a few of
> his cycles, but passed them on to interested (hopefully) musicaal
> compatriots at the time.
>
> Also, and not because I am a drummer and scientist, I remember he
> commented that rhythm is the science of the future!
>
> I spent a couple of years learning piano, and a year on the trumpet,
> in the late 50's early sixties, before I settled into drumming. I
> worked professional full-time in rock'n'roll bar bands 68-72, before
> I returned to field ecology, and for 20 years used music part-tiume
> to help support hopelessly underfunded field research. I still get to
> play about once a week with a rockabilly, blues, country band, but
> the largest town within a 100 mile drive is 5000 people, and that's
> the Wikwemikong unceded First Nation, so making money and playing
> often isn't really an option.
>
> It would be nice to see some of Steiner's really pertinent quotes
> again, maybe someone could put some up?
>
> Take care, and give care, Rick
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
>    Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:20:13 -0700
>    From: "LilOleMissy" <lilolemissy@...>
> Subject: RE: Music is the art of the future
>
> Dear Rick and All,
>
> ACK! Rick, that's like asking me to find a needle in a haystack! :) It
> seems to me Steiner mentions this about music and other arts perhaps in
his
> "The Mission of Art" or "Art in the Light of Mystery Wisdom" but even
here,
> I may have gotten the titles of these lectures wrong. I've been able to
> download [FREE, too! :)] many wonderful articles, lectures and books from
> the online electronic library at http://www.elib.com/Steiner and you might
> want to take a look. I don't remember about rhythm being the science of
the
> future, which is no surprise, given the enormous wealth of his works! With
> a red face, I often try to excuse myself for ignorance on all too many
> issues! :)  But think about rhythm [she says to herself and others...] -
we
> have rhythm in the beating of our hearts, our pulse and on and on, so it
> certainly is a very critical part of us and the Universe! I wasn't
> surprised the other day to come across a newspaper article of "tone" being
> heard from a black hole, and I wondered if that might possibly be what
> Steiner and others call The Music of the Spheres? Regardless, it's
> wonderful you play drums, and have your background in piano and trumpet:
> rhythm, touch and breath plus much else.
>
> Now where in Canada are you? You have my curiousity after mentioning
> Wikwemikong unceaded First  Nation! Is it Indian? For awhile, I lived on a
> Mohawk Reservation along the St. Lawrence - the St. Regis - and it was
> absolutely fascinating to me!!!! I loved Canada very much, but find
British
> Columbia warmer and now California boiling! :)
>
> Cheers!
>
> Sheila
> >
> > Dear Sheila, and Folks;
> >
> > Yes, I do remember Steiner saying that, although I also vaguely
> > remember that his view of its evolution was surprising. Sheila, maybe
> > you could look into it in your collection; I have reviewed a few of
> > his cycles, but passed them on to interested (hopefully) musicaal
> > compatriots at the time.
> >
> > Also, and not because I am a drummer and scientist, I remember he
> > commented that rhythm is the science of the future!
> >
> > I spent a couple of years learning piano, and a year on the trumpet,
> > in the late 50's early sixties, before I settled into drumming. I
> > worked professional full-time in rock'n'roll bar bands 68-72, before
> > I returned to field ecology, and for 20 years used music part-tiume
> > to help support hopelessly underfunded field research. I still get to
> > play about once a week with a rockabilly, blues, country band, but
> > the largest town within a 100 mile drive is 5000 people, and that's
> > the Wikwemikong unceded First Nation, so making money and playing
> > often isn't really an option.
> >
> > It would be nice to see some of Steiner's really pertinent quotes
> > again, maybe someone could put some up?
> >
> > Take care, and give care, Rick
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
>    Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:57:28 EDT
>    From: golden3000997@...
> Subject: Re: Music is the art of the future
>
> Hello Sheila, Rick and Everyone,
>
> Sorry for jumping into the middle of this conversation - not one I have
been
> following - but I am particularly sensitive to the issue of music lately
and I
> also saw that article, Sheila. It said that they have calculated the black
> hole to be emitting a perfect B flat at 57 octaves below middle C. Really
sends
> shivers down my spine. Brings to mind the movie "Contact" and all of the
> search for intelligent life research being done. We are listening for
sounds from
> space, but maybe they didn't consider that the sounds they are looking for
> might be inaudible to the human ear. Maybe they should recruit some dogs
on the
> project! (Just being facetious) :  )
>
> But the fact that it IS a recognizable harmonic note on a human scale is
> really exciting. Knowing about the "music of the spheres" and
"extra-terrestrial"
> lifeforms is one thing. Seeing the possiblility of "proving" their
existence
> somewhere down the road is exciting. Alas, as with Christianity, I believe
the
> quote is, " For those who will not believe, no proof is possible; for
those
> who will believe, no proof is necessary." I forget where the quote comes
from.
>
> Yet in our "scientific" era, perhaps we will see connection with spiritual
> science evolve and more and more people learning that reality is in
between
> these extremes. Neither a mind closed like a steel trap or mindless faith
is going
> to help us as the world evolves, only a truly scientific approach which
looks
> for proof based on the faith that what we seek to find is actually there
in
> the first place. All great scientific and human discoveries have had this
> basis. How can one discover something unless one believes that it is there
in the
> first place?
>
> On a slightly related subject - my current pet peeve is this music
industry
> campaign against music file sharing. Really pisses me off. Separate
e-mail,
> long ranting possible if anyone is interested.
>
> Best wishes,
> Christine :  )
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hey, Christine and ALL!

Welcome on board, Christine. Your thoughts are really "pearls" to
contemplate, plus it's great to see you enthused, too! I read this last
night and wanted time to "digest" your thoughts - you're so right about
science! Steiner knew this full well, and therefore he stressed the
scientific in all things - after all, he even coined the words SPIRITUAL
SCIENCE! :))  HAH! I was so joyful to see your words "...only a truly
scientific approach which looks for proof..."  You've stated the key that
Steiner always stressed! HOORAY!!!!!!!!! You've made my day as well as
bringing enormous insight - thanks!!!!!!!!

Joyfully,

Sheila

> Hello Sheila, Rick and Everyone,
>
> Sorry for jumping into the middle of this conversation - not one I have
been
> following - but I am particularly sensitive to the issue of music lately
and I
> also saw that article, Sheila. It said that they have calculated the
black
> hole to be emitting a perfect B flat at 57 octaves below middle C. Really
sends
> shivers down my spine. Brings to mind the movie "Contact" and all of the
> search for intelligent life research being done. We are listening for
sounds from
> space, but maybe they didn't consider that the sounds they are looking
for
> might be inaudible to the human ear. Maybe they should recruit some dogs
on the
> project! (Just being facetious) :  )
>
> But the fact that it IS a recognizable harmonic note on a human scale is
> really exciting. Knowing about the "music of the spheres" and
"extra-terrestrial"
> lifeforms is one thing. Seeing the possiblility of "proving" their
existence
> somewhere down the road is exciting. Alas, as with Christianity, I
believe the
> quote is, " For those who will not believe, no proof is possible; for
those
> who will believe, no proof is necessary." I forget where the quote comes
from.
>
> Yet in our "scientific" era, perhaps we will see connection with
spiritual
> science evolve and more and more people learning that reality is in
between
> these extremes. Neither a mind closed like a steel trap or mindless faith
is going
> to help us as the world evolves, only a truly scientific approach which
looks
> for proof based on the faith that what we seek to find is actually there
in
> the first place. All great scientific and human discoveries have had this
> basis. How can one discover something unless one believes that it is
there in the
> first place?
>
> On a slightly related subject - my current pet peeve is this music
industry
> campaign against music file sharing. Really pisses me off. Separate
e-mail,
> long ranting possible if anyone is interested.
>
> Best wishes,
> Christine :  )

Here in America a lot of parents feel equally disgusted by the
declining moral values of the public school system, and are sending
their children to private schools.  My knowledge of Woldorf education
is limited but it sounds as if the Steiner approach might have its
advantages depending upon the qualifications of the teachers.  The
government will pay the tuition, through the "school voucher program,"
if the Woldorf school is board certified by the state.  The
certification process isn't too difficult, from what I've heard.
Private institutions like Woldorf are frequently cropping-up in urban
areas where the public school system has seriously degenerated.
Instead of the Ten Commandments, they have "I Have Two Mommies" and
twelve years olds putting condoms on cucumbers.

Mathew Morrell
http://www.kcpost.net/