Glenn and everyone else,

Does that also apply to US launchers ?? I mean I'm not an expert on US law but I
did intend to release some kits of launchers still in use today or to be used in
the future.

The story itself is a killer, looks like the old type of bureaucracy. Anyway
congratulations on you'victory' Glenn and lok forward to the kits.

Julius de Roo


> However, current and future missions =
> are protected and getting a license for them is difficult.
>
> My list for planned kit releases now includes: Surveyor 3, Lunar Orbiter =
> (which, it turns out, isn't even a JPL vehicle), Ranger 9, Pioneer 10, =
> Mariner 9 & 10, Viking, Voyager and Magellan.
>
> I win. Not with a bang, but a wimper.


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Karl D. Dodenhoff, RN wrote:

> Does anyone know how to use one of these commercial (kiddie) vacuformers
> for modeling applications?  Like, what kind of plastic you should use
> and how long to heat it?

I've used a Mattel vacu-form machine or years with decent success.

Type of plastic:
If you can find a hobby shop that specializes in flying RC aircraft, they
probably have SIG (brand) sheet plastic. It is used for vac forming.  It
usually comes clear but I have found it in white, also.  You can also use
0.010 or 0.015 inch styrene sheet.  Just cut it to size to fit in the
machine. Some brands seem to work better than others.  Also, I vaguely
recall seeing somebody advertsing sheets of soft plastic pre-cut ot fit
these old machines.  Not sure where.

How long:
Heat it until it turns soft.  You can test it by poking with a stick to see
how it respopnds.  Usually the center softens first, but you must be patient
and wait until the whole thing is ready.

Results.
My worst problems come when I try to do a piece that is too large.  The
plastic has to stretch too far and the bottom regions don't form well. No
sle solution except maybe to use thinner plastic or more suction somehow.

Good luck.

Mike M



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I just found out that the Mercury program show on CNN tonight is part of
a 4 part series on space.  Check the web site:

http://cnn.com/CNNPromos/perspectives/


Karl


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Karl:
	 My first thought would be to rig up a tube within a tube ( telescoping
tubes) system for the antenna.  I have used this technique to be able to
slip on and off parts for transportation.  While it works best with tubular
systems, I have disguised the tubes with creative gizmology on occasion!

Mike
At 11:23 PM 7/11/98 -0700, Karl D. Dodenhoff, RN wrote:
>Guys -
>    As you all know, one of the spindliest parts of a CSM is the S-Band
>High Gain Antenna (henceforth referred to as the HGA).   I have one or
>two schemes in mind to do this, but I thought I'd ask you guys' advice.
>Any brain storms out there?




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Guys -
     As you all know, one of the spindliest parts of a CSM is the S-Band
High Gain Antenna (henceforth referred to as the HGA).  Now, thinking
ahead to the day when I may have to either ship this thing to Orlando or
carry it on the plane with me, I realized that this is one piece of the
puzzle that might be better off NOT glued to the model itself.  Now,
maybe you're thinking "Just fold it back and wrap some foam around it
and tape it in place".  But, I am building most of it from scratch,
including the mount, so I will not have that option.
    Now, what I'm thinking is to build something that can be popped into
place, mount and all, and removed.  No gluing involved.  I have one or
two schemes in mind to do this, but I thought I'd ask you guys' advice.
Any brain storms out there?
    By the way:  the mount is being made out of a solid chunk of
Milliput.

Thanks in advance.  I hope you guys don't get sick of me 'cuz I'm gonna
be asking a TON of questions as this thing goes along.

PS  Glenn: I got some more work done on the hatch today, but it's still
got a long way to go.


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Especially for Mike M. -
     8 pm EDT Sunday on CNN:  "Moon Fever", the story of the Mercury
program.  Be there or be square!

Karl


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Well, I FINALLY found the set I was looking for.  It was one of the ones
featured in that article in FSM, made by Precision.  Only, it wasn't $65
like it said in the article - it was $89, on sale, no less!  But, I
already popped a few holes in some sheet styrene and the sucker works
great!  It's really heavy duty - the base on it weighs probably 2 lbs.

Oh, well - just thought y'all would wanna know!  Now, I can get going on
this CSM again....

Have a good one

Karl


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Does anyone know how to use one of these commercial (kiddie) vacuformers
for modeling applications?  Like, what kind of plastic you should use
and how long to heat it?


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Man, just get me to that LM!!!!  And, let's let the judge in the group
(we all know who he is!) see the real CSM so's he can appreciate the one
I'm building!!!           :)


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Hey Sven -
How much did Chris pay you for that plug?!!

                         :)

Karl


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Hey gang,

I've added my Quick Look at EVA Models new Lunar Roving Vehicle kit.
It's a beaut!

	 http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/models/quick_looks.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
//Sven Knudson                   |
//sven@...              | The only good thing about entropy is
//http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven | that it needs no maintenance...
//                               |
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Hi All,

This is my fourth attempt at posting!

I will definitely be at the 99 Nats, Orlando is only about 4 hours from my
home.  My biggest problem is finding time to build something for the
competition.  I have been having good success with my research out at KSC,
found a sympathetic ear in the Public Affairs office, etc.  Seems like the
more I uncover, the more questions emerge from the dust!

Karl knows that I want to build a Saturn V/ LUT combo, I have plans ordered
from KSC already (hopefully once they arrive, some of them will appear
online) so I just need lots of plastic.

I already have tons of info on the Saturn V, except for the F-1 foil-batt
insulation.  I hope to solve that mystery on the next trip to KSC.  Which
leaves trying to replicate stringer detail in 1/144 scale.  I have been
trying to use an Airfix kit but the joints of the rocket halves have those
annoying ridges.

I have fabricated a new S-II thrust structure, but now I think I need to
turn a master on a lathe and vaccum-form one from that.  Now I have to
convince the wife that a lathe is an essential part of anyones garage junk!

John






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Sven:
	 I am OK with getting together a list of who is signed up for the space
modelers digest.

Mike I.

At 12:55 PM 7/10/98 -0500, Sven Knudson wrote:
>
>Howdy!
>
>Mike asked if there's any way we could see who's on the mail list.  I
>checked on the list server site and it appears that the email
>addresses are protected to keep web crawlers from extracting them for
>spamming.  Nice idea, but it makes it difficult for us to tell who's
>on the list.  Since I'm the list administrator, I have access to the
>list, so maybe I can glean a list of names from the list and post just
>the names on my web page somewhere if y'all think that would be a good
>thing.
>
>Let me know what y'all think about it.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>//Sven Knudson                   |
>//sven@...              | The only good thing about entropy is
>//http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven | that it needs no maintenance...
>//                               |
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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>--
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Glenn:
	 Bravo!!  I believe that you did win and with a decent bang to boot.
Actually, after reading the list of spacecraft you are intending I can make
the case that we all won!  Great story!

Mike


>My list for planned kit releases now includes: Surveyor 3, Lunar Orbiter
(which, it turns out, isn't even a JPL vehicle), Ranger 9, Pioneer 10,
Mariner 9 & 10, Viking, Voyager and Magellan.
>
>I win. Not with a bang, but a wimper.
>
>Glenn Johnson
>RealSpace Models
>
>
>
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Karl:
	 Yup, T'was I who replied to the list first.  Guess all of us Mike's kinda
look alike!  ;-)

I found that it is usually a good thing to include the section of an e-mail
message one is referring to in one of these lists.  After the conversation
gets going, it is hard sometimes to figure out exactly what was the
original statement that is being commented on.  Sorta puts everything in
context.
Mike I.

Oh yea, I'm in on the soiree in Orlando next year!

At 11:05 PM 7/9/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Correction on the last one.  It was Mike I. who replied to Mike M's
>message... You guys were planning that, just to embarrass me, huh?!
>
>
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How about just posting members names on your site, not their email address.
Again, I am aware of different listserver software that can give you a member
list witha simple command.  We seem to have a simpler version.

Mike M

Sven Knudson wrote:

> Howdy!
>
> Mike asked if there's any way we could see who's on the mail list.  I
> checked on the list server site and it appears that the email
> addresses are protected to keep web crawlers from extracting them for
> spamming.  Nice idea, but it makes it difficult for us to tell who's
> on the list.  Since I'm the list administrator, I have access to the
> list, so maybe I can glean a list of names from the list and post just
> the names on my web page somewhere if y'all think that would be a good
> thing.
>
> Let me know what y'all think about it.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> //Sven Knudson                   |
> //sven@...              | The only good thing about entropy is
> //http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven | that it needs no maintenance...
> //                               |
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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Hey guys,

Mike Mackowski thought that this story would be a good post for this new mail
list.

In November of 1996 I contacted the Mars Global Surveyor team at JPL explaining
that I have a company that makes resin spacecraft - RealSpace Models - and that
I would like to get drawings of the MGS in order to to a kit. In the past,
projects at JPL have been very forthcoming with information to anyone who showed
an interest. I usually would end up with blueprints of whatever vehicles I was
interested in. This time I got a phone call from a Patent Lawyer at Caltech
explaining to me the the Global Surveyor was available for LICENSING, but that
the Pathfinder and Sojourner and the Cruise Stage of Pathfinder were unavailable
because they had been EXCLUSIVELY LICENSED to MATTEL - this means there will
never be a model of the Pathfinder/Sojourner, sorry guys.

Anyway, I protested saying that these were government funded projects and that
they had no right to license them. They explained that a 1981 technology
transfer bill in congress allowed eduucational institutions to patent and
trademark - and license - anything they "invent" with public funding. Since
Caltech owns JPL (not NASA) they felt this included not only current missions
but ALL the unmanned spacecraft this country had launched (through JPL). While I
thought this was an extension of the law that the congress hadn't intended, I
also didn't have the money to fight it in court. I eventually applied for a
license to do a model of the Viking Orbiter and Lander. The licenseing agreement
included prepayments and a 3% royality on all sales.

In the meantime my wife and I had a preemie baby and he spent the best part of
1997 in the hospital and I never filed the agreement with JPL/CALTECH. (I did
manage to get a license from Lockheed Martin - who got the cue from JPL - to do
the Lunar Prospector - and they were very accomidating).

This week I decided to get the ball rolling again at JPL and called them about
getting a licenese.

It all came down to this:

Once I contacted them I was informed that their tune had changed a bit, no
longer would I be required to pay a royality (I think they may have gotten in
trouble for that practice), instead it was a one time up-front fee of $200.00
per spacecraft licensed. I sent them a list of vehicles I was interested in, and
they removed those that were unavailable (such as Cassini for which all licenses
have been suspended while they are being sued by the estate of Cassini for the
right to license the name) leaving eight from my list. I told them I was
interested in a license for each, but wouldn't be able to afford all of them at
once, so I wanted to start with just two and would they please send me a
contract for Viking and Surveyor 3.

I then got a phone call and FAX informing me that they had "not [in the past]
actively protected [their] Intellectual Property Rights" of the listed
spacecraft and therefore, no license would be required. Basically they found out
that they couldn't make a licensed property effective retroactively. They would
have had to assert a copyright at the time of the mission in order to protect
the trademark. Anything pre-1995 is open game. Present and future missions will
all be protected. Galileo, which is still a current mission has been protected
and licensed to the weasels at Mattel. So they have basically delayed me for
about 20 months only to finally tell me that I was right back in 1996 when I
said they couldn't license the old vehicles. However, current and future
missions are protected and getting a license for them is difficult.

My list for planned kit releases now includes: Surveyor 3, Lunar Orbiter (which,
it turns out, isn't even a JPL vehicle), Ranger 9, Pioneer 10, Mariner 9 & 10,
Viking, Voyager and Magellan.

I win. Not with a bang, but a wimper.

Glenn Johnson
RealSpace Models



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Correction on the last one.  It was Mike I. who replied to Mike M's
message... You guys were planning that, just to embarrass me, huh?!


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it looks like somebody did a reply to on Mike's first message and it
came through with Mike's name attached to it.  looks like we need some
info here, guys!

also, whoever it was that did that same message: you might want to
disable the function that automatically quotes the message you're
replying to

I already got my registration form for next years' Nats (Thanks, Sven -
it came in the mail after my last email to you today!) and you can bet
yer ass I'll be there!  Looks like Sven wants to bypass the official
NASA tour and just have all of us pile into our cars and go down there.

maybe we should take a cencus and see who's gonna be there?

I've already started work on my main project for next year, which most
of you already know about.  I'll for sure be firing off a lot more
questions as this project moves along.  Did anyone see the thing in the
latest IPMS Journal about Story Musgrave signing HST models?  Are those
(AMT/ERTL?) kits still around anywhere?  Time to break out the bare
metal foil.  I already bought a ton of it for my CSM (Sorry, Mike - I'm
doing the SM in foil but I think you'll like the result).

Does anyone have a good local store around that sells punch and die
sets?  I'm still having a time of this!

I guess that's good for a start........

Peace,

Karl


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Howdy!

Mike asked if there's any way we could see who's on the mail list.  I
checked on the list server site and it appears that the email
addresses are protected to keep web crawlers from extracting them for
spamming.  Nice idea, but it makes it difficult for us to tell who's
on the list.  Since I'm the list administrator, I have access to the
list, so maybe I can glean a list of names from the list and post just
the names on my web page somewhere if y'all think that would be a good
thing.

Let me know what y'all think about it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
//Sven Knudson                   |
//sven@...              | The only good thing about entropy is
//http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven | that it needs no maintenance...
//                               |
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Howdy everyone!

I got two copies of everything you posted Karl, but only one from everyone else.

I too plan to be at Orlando next summer, but plans are still somewhat up in
the air, as it will be a family vacation for me.

I'll do some research tonight on the Mercury heatshield and see if I can
come up with some book photo reference. The sub-orbital heatshields were
Beryllium heat sinks (At least through Shepard's vehicle). I agree with
Sven that the resin one on Freedom 7 II looked like masonite in color but
much richer with a sense of depth to it, as if the color was coming from
under the surface.

Dave Weeks






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Oops!  For anyone to subscribe, they have to send email to:

	 space-modelers-subscribe@...

Sorry about the error... it's been a long week!

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//http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven | that it needs no maintenance...
//                               |
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More testing here.



Sven Knudson wrote:

> This is a test of replying to Mike's question... my email server also
> sends a CC of the email to the mailing list (in theory)... so
> theoretically, Mike should get two copies of this reply and everyone
> else should only see it once.
>

I got two copies, both with Sven as the "From" person and the list in the
"CC" slot. I am using my "Reply All" function and hope that it goes to the
list.  In other lists I am on, the "Reply" function sends it to the list.  It
seems that this one works different - you have to use "Reply All" (?). When I
got list items from Karl, only his name was in the "From" slot and there was
no "CC" entry.

> Anyway, to answer your question about how to join the list:  Anyone
> can join by sending email to
>
>         space-modelers@...
>

Don't they have to put "subscribe" in the message body?

> Or they can go to the web site at:
>
>         http://www.findmail.com/list/space-modelers
>
> and enter the information on the form there.  I'm also going to put a
> sign-up form on my web page.  I hope to do that this weekend some time
> (but I'm really busy at work, so that may not happen).
>
> The web site is also supposed to archive all these messages, but there
> wasn't anything other than the initial welcome message when I checked
> this morning.  Maybe it takes some time for the messages to appear...
>
> I can see the list of subscribers, but I think that's only because I'm
> the list administrator.  If I have time, I'll try to find out if the
> subscription list is available publicly... if not, I can post a list
> of subscribers on my web page if no one objects.
>

On some listservers, you can send a message to the server with a command in
the message body and get various responses.  Our server may use a simpler
list engine.

> Now, on to the Mercury heat shield color.  The heat shield of the
> Freedom 7 II capsule at Ames looked like dark masonite (I know it's
> really a resin of some sort, but it had the same color as masonite).
> The color looks almost black on my photos, though.  I also don't know
> if the color has changed over the years... after all, it's been 35
> years since the thing was built!
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> //Sven Knudson                   |
> //sven@...              | The only good thing about entropy is
> //http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven | that it needs no maintenance...
> //                               |
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------





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To all:
	 Greetings and Salutations!  Mike M., I received your post, it looks like
you had a fine inauguration for the list.  Like yourself, I am not sure how
to correctly post something for the group.  Another digest that I subscribe
to ( airline modelers - I insert NASA a/c in there on occasion!) works by
simply hitting the reply button.  I tried this and I only copied Mike.
We'll work this out!

Mike, thanks for the update on the National.  What a difference in only a
year!  Remember Albuquerque, though.  There was a decent showing of space
models at that show and it was a western presentation.

Mike I.

>2.  The initial e-mails were ambiguous on what the address is for
>actually posting messages.  I used
>space-modelers@...
>
>3. Thanks to Sven for thinking up this idea and actually implementing it
>so quickly.
>
>Now some real content:
>
>A.  I had a great time at the IPMS National Convention last week.  I
>don't have time to write a full report now, but I have these quick
>observations:
> - Overall attendance and model count was down.  About 1400 total
>entries and less than 500 people registered.  I hear that is typical for
>West Coast conventions. Last year in Columbus we had over 2000 models
>and 1000 people.
> - Subsequently Real Space was down a bit, maybe even disproportionately
>so. Sci Fi and Fantasy had good numbers. We were able to split SF kits
>again, as we did last year. I will post the actual numbers later.
>- I did my little seminar and we all had a fine time talking about our
>latest projects - me, David Weeks, Sven Knudson, Julius de Rho, Chris
>Chulamanis, etc.
> - Next year in Orlando should be good.  It will be the 30th anniversary
>of Apollo 11 and we should make an effort to have more space related
>activities at the show.  We will also plan to work on some special space
>tours.
>
>B. A query:
>What are the correct colors of the Mercury heat shield?  Sub-orbital
>missions had a metallic heat sink type of shield and seem to be metallic
>gray. Orbital missions had the epoxy-ablator and some folks say a dark
>tan is a good color.  I'd like some specific photo references.  (This
>should start a nice thread on this list.)
>
>C. Sven - how do we invite others to join this list?  How can we see who
>is on it?
>
>Mike Mackowski
>Editor, Space In Miniature
>
>
>
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>Read this list on the Web at http://www.makelist.com/list/space-modelers/
>To unsubscribe, email to space-modelers-unsubscribe@...
>To subscribe, email to space-modelers-subscribe@...
>--
>Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://www.makelist.com !
>



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Mike -

I received your email test through the Space Modeler server without a problem.
However to reply to you I had to create a new message. If I had just replied it
would have gone to your personal email address.

I'm sorry to hear that the number of entries in Real Space was down this year. I
am hoping for great entries at the Orlando Nats next year. I know I'll be there.

Glenn Johnson


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This is a test of replying to Mike's question... my email server also
sends a CC of the email to the mailing list (in theory)... so
theoretically, Mike should get two copies of this reply and everyone
else should only see it once.

Anyway, to answer your question about how to join the list:  Anyone
can join by sending email to

	 space-modelers@...

Or they can go to the web site at:

	 http://www.findmail.com/list/space-modelers

and enter the information on the form there.  I'm also going to put a
sign-up form on my web page.  I hope to do that this weekend some time
(but I'm really busy at work, so that may not happen).

The web site is also supposed to archive all these messages, but there
wasn't anything other than the initial welcome message when I checked
this morning.  Maybe it takes some time for the messages to appear...

I can see the list of subscribers, but I think that's only because I'm
the list administrator.  If I have time, I'll try to find out if the
subscription list is available publicly... if not, I can post a list
of subscribers on my web page if no one objects.


Now, on to the Mercury heat shield color.  The heat shield of the
Freedom 7 II capsule at Ames looked like dark masonite (I know it's
really a resin of some sort, but it had the same color as masonite).
The color looks almost black on my photos, though.  I also don't know
if the color has changed over the years... after all, it's been 35
years since the thing was built!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
//Sven Knudson                   |
//sven@...              | The only good thing about entropy is
//http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven | that it needs no maintenance...
//                               |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Howdy gang,

I think the multiple messages may be caused by replying to a post,
then sending the same post to the list server.  I noticed this by
almost replying to Karl's post about the multiple messages.  My email
server was going to send the reply to Karl with a cc: to the mail
list.  If I then turned around and sent the message to the mail list,
then there would now be two copies of the message posted.  And so
on...

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
//Sven Knudson                   |
//sven@...              | The only good thing about entropy is
//http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven | that it needs no maintenance...
//                               |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Hi All,

This is a test to see if this thing really works.

1.  Will a message be echoed back to the sender? (Probably not -some one
please reply so I know this got out!)

2.  The initial e-mails were ambiguous on what the address is for
actually posting messages.  I used
space-modelers@...

3. Thanks to Sven for thinking up this idea and actually implementing it
so quickly.

Now some real content:

A.  I had a great time at the IPMS National Convention last week.  I
don't have time to write a full report now, but I have these quick
observations:
  - Overall attendance and model count was down.  About 1400 total
entries and less than 500 people registered.  I hear that is typical for
West Coast conventions. Last year in Columbus we had over 2000 models
and 1000 people.
  - Subsequently Real Space was down a bit, maybe even disproportionally
so. Sci Fi and Fantasy had good numbers. We were able to split SF kits
again, as we did last year. I will post the actual numbers later.
- I did my little seminar and we all had a fine time talking about our
latest projects - me, David Weeks, Sven Knudson, Julius de Rho, Chris
Chulamanis, etc.
  - Next year in Orlando should be good.  It will be the 30th anniversary
of Apollo 11 and we should make an effort to have more space related
activities at the show.  We will also plan to work on some special space
tours.

B. A query:
What are the correct colors of the Mercury heat shield?  Sub-orbital
missions had a metallic heat sink type of shield and seem to be metallic
gray. Orbital missions had the epoxy-ablator and some folks say a dark
tan is a good color.  I'd like some specific photo references.  (This
should start a nice thread on this list.)

C. Sven - how do we invite others to join this list?  How can we see who
is on it?

Mike Mackowski
Editor, Space In Miniature



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I just logged on and found out that I received 3 copies of each message
I sent out yesterday...  did anybody else get the same thing?


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A discussion group of people who build or are interested in building models of
space, rocketry, and research aircraft (X-planes) related items.