The Realms of Avalon I refer to is a splinter group
> from Empire of Adria.  So, SCA-like but a little more focused on
> historical accuracy and education despite the fanciful name.

Actually, there are many of us in the SCA who do focus on historical
accuracy and education, despite what you seem to think.  A large
number of SCA members are professional historians, lecturers,
factual authors, hold PhD's and Masters degrees in history, and are
professors at major universities.  Many of those transfer their
modern love of history into their SCA life and use it to further
research and educate others. (Otherwise, why would you come to us
for help in your research?)

So stating that the SCA isn't educationally based or that it's
members aren't interested in historical accuracy is unrealistic and
untrue.  Don't get me wrong, there are a large number of members who
prefer to party and 'dress up'.  But please don't lump the entire
SCA into that group. The SCA has come a long way in the nearly 40
years of it's exsistance and is continuting to make headway.

Those who portray Slavic personae, in general, are among some of the
more scholarly of the SCA.  In part, because the sources can be rare
and difficult to find many who want to just party are turned off by
the amount of research needed to portray a Slavic persona.

Cu Drag,
Domina Despina ot Brasov

Greetings

Thursday, May 01, 2003, 7:12:17 PM, you wrote:

DK> Alex, I tried, but could not find any references for the Film Ermak. 
DK>  Is that the full name of the film?  Does anyone know if it is available in
the US?
DK>   The only thing I could find was a CD with
DK> music from Imperial Russia (and that was on amazon.com).

The film (can't say if it's strictly a film or a series, 4 parts about
1.5 hours each) was shot in about 1991-92. On TV it's advertised (and
shown about annually) as a film. In Russia they sometimes declare that
in
1992, when the director was short of money, the US investors offered
help but on condition Schwarzenegger plays Ermak. The director refused
to, so the film was shot on Russian money and with Russian actors.
The film must be somewhere in the I-net, though I am not
sure if there is an English version. It must be, as there are not so
many films of 1990s that are still popular.

--
Bye,
Alex                            mailto:Posadnik@...

Greetings!

Friday, May 02, 2003, 1:56:05 PM, you wrote:


AK> Having finally found a Russian looking SCA helm, I went about adding
accutraments.
AK> I added a fur ring around the base of the helmet's cone, which I had thought
I had seen
Conanism, no history. AFAIR the visual image belongs to first
illustrations to Conan saga. It must have been once copied from the
islamic world helms, with turbans over them.
AK> on one of the many
AK> Russian armor sites I'd visited. But double checking them and my books,
AK> I can't seem to find any example of such fure on a  helmet.
They never existed. Turban-helms protected the steel hat from
over-heating in the southern sun. A helm with a fur rim is no
functional, it does not stop sunlight, it does not absorb the energy
of the blow (if the helm is a Misyurka of 14-15 centuries), it is cut
off by slightest cutting blows and even scratches. It imitates an
eastern european fur hat, but has no convenience of a hat.

Though, in a children's history book @Crusaders" that
"used some re-creations by Mikhail Gorelik" there was something Saracen,
a helm with a narrow rim looking like fur. Though it went not
horizontally but sharply up in the middle of the forehead, as a rim of
a Spanish helm forgot-its-name.


--
Bye,
Alex                            mailto:Posadnik@...

Greetings

Saturday, May 03, 2003, 5:25:33 AM, you wrote:

jfn> Interesting. Is this a vinagrette? Salads dressed with salt, oil, and
jfn> vinegar were a common period dish in other places.
No, a viniegret is a potato salad of potatoes, carrots, beetroot, salted
cucumbers, chopped sauerkraut, green (canned) peanuts, dressed with
vegetable oil (sunflower mainly). It became popular as a cheap
substitute to "more expensive" dishes within the 20 century, no
earlier. AFAIR, the French name from the very beginning had nothing in
common with the dish.

>> MS>    Spring Onion Salad
>> No salads except radishes in oil and pickled mushrooms are period.

jfn> Hm. There are references to vinegar and pickled cucumbers, lemons and
jfn> plums in the Domostroi. Do these mean something else than pickled sallat?
Yes, but the point is that Russian kitchen (in the snack part) was extremely
mono-component in period. Salads of several components were introduced
in 19 century, by its end. A good example is Olivier salad, created in
1890s or 1900s in a Moscow restaurant. Before that, all the pickled
snacks were only pickled vegetables & mushrooms, also mono-component.
Even different mushrooms were salted separately. And all that was
served also mono-componently, salted mushrooms (each times naming
which mushrooms exactly), salted cucumbers, soaked apples, etc. They
could dress it with vegetable oil, but that didn't make a salad in the
modern sense.

BTW, in Domostroi,
pickled lemons meant not a new taste but a lengthened shelf life. That
meant salt more than vinegar.
Strictly pickling, not salting, vegetables, is not characteristic of
Russia until late 1990s. Even now, with all those pickled cucumbers
from Central Europe, there is a strict difference in taste between
canned vegetables from Europe and Russian ones, especially barrelled,
not canned ones. Russians simply add more salt to the liquid.


--
Bye,
Alex                            mailto:Posadnik@...

Despina, Despina, Despina... I am not about to waste my time and descend
into a fruitless argument about how historically accurate the SCA is or is
not.  Suffice it to say that, as a whole, it is not accurate enough for ME.
My opinion only and not meant to cast aspersions on those who are into it
for the historical aspect rather than the strangely dressed kegger.  I've
been involved in the SCA since I was 8 years old in at least 5 different
kingdoms.  I know what the SCA is all about.  There are serious scholars and
there are bimbos in chainmail bikinis.  There are amazing artisans who
handmake historically correct armor and study period fighting techniques and
there are mindless jocks in plastic who just want to hit people with big
sticks.  The SCA truly has it all.  It is my opinion that the Realms of
Avalon focuses on historical accuracy to a greater degree than the SCA on
the whole.  Knowing nothing of the RoA, you may still choose to disagree
with me if you like.  That is, of course, your priviledge.  However, please
refrain in future from trying to drag me into ridiculous arguments along the
lines of "My group is better than your group," because I simply will not
play.  Your tone with me throughout this duscussion has been rude and snipy
and yet I have ignored it on the assumption that you were perhaps unaware of
how you were coming across.  However, let me assure you that I have not been
alone in my perception and have received comments from more than one person
regarding it. Would that you had spent as much time and effort citing your
supporting sources from the all the books you "have at home" rather than on
the below.  I would appreciate it if you would still share those sources
with the rest of us that we might further our studies rather than wasting
time on petty sniping.
Regards,
Reina

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Despina:
But the evidence is there... you just haven't dug far enough to find
it yet.

*snip*

Also, pure geography would make them more inclined toward Eastern
European fashions rather than those fashions of the West."

Hi,  I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
I've found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if
you could expand upon your "you haven't dug far enough" comment.

1)Where? I know Google, when I'm *really* motivated, there's my uni's
library, and have just learned about the monistary frescos (thank
you!)... so where else to search? Any suggsted keywords to look for
that may not be obvious?
2)Also Where: What other cultures would be related? I'm reading a
history of Poland-- it's amazing how many times people became
freinds, then enemies, then freind, etc-- and am trying to develop an
understanding of which cultures they had 'positive' contact with,
when, but it's hard to tell what cultures to look into, first.  Any
hints would be greatly appreciated...

2)When? How far forward or back could a person extrapolate for
the "Mid-SCA" period?  I know that, by the 16th century, fashions had
radically changed, but how far into the 15th century is "safe" for
late-ish 14th?

Many thanks, and my appologies if this sounds more like a whinge
on "research is hard", as it's meant to be a "please clue me into
directions to look"!

Cheers, Stefania

I must admit, I am also curious as to what article is being
produced, scadian or mundane/professional?

Antoinette
B.S. in Art History

> > BTW, for what is this article being produced? and what are
> the sources in your bibliography?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

This could be interesting:
The Hilandar Research Library - Resource center for medieval
Slavic studies is on the
http://www.cohums.ohio-state.edu/cmrs/rcmss/default.html

As it is wrote at home page of the site, The Hilandar Research
Library has the largest collection of medieval Slavic manuscripts on
microform in the world.

At the CONTACT part is described the way to get copies of
manuscripts.

Regards,
Lockey

The Realms of Avalon web site can be found at

http://www.realmsofavalon.org/

It is a new group but is growing.

Istvan

--- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
>
> > Whoops!  Knew there was something else!  It's just for a local e-
> > group newsletter for a subdivision of Realms of Avalon, a newer
> > historical re-creation group.
>
> Realms of Avalon?  The role playing group?
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4548/Arcane/Arcintro.htm

I'm also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying
actual vampire lore from all over the world.

  I HAD to reply to this one.  In 1998 I had invitations to the Vampire's
ball Anne throws every year (I worked with her niece).  I went as Buffy
(movie version), a good friend of mine went as Von Helsing.  His brother
went at Whitey Snipes (he's 6 foot and an albino) and his best friend went
as a monk (he is black and wanted to go as snipes, but he's barely 5 feet
tall and 5 feet across, so we figured a monk was better suited).

   After an hour, we were asked to leave. It was priceless the looks we got.
But I do have to admit, when her Highness spoke from her throne, yes a
throne, she began speaking of her sexual fantasy's which included male
castration, we were heading for the door anyway.

   So we played a live pick-up Vampire game in the cemeteries of New Orleans.

   And to this day, I DO believe in Vampires!!!  yes, had a horrible
experience!

   Soffya Appollonia Tudja
   http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
   Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
three fleur-de-lys Or




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
From: sca-cooks-admin@...
[mailto:sca-cooks-admin@...]On Behalf Of Phlip
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 11:30 AM
To: sca-east@...; SCA-Cooks; theforge@...
Subject: [Sca-cooks] A new book for Mongols in SCA




Please feel free to pass this email along to interested people and email
Lists.

Paul Buell's new book, "Historical Dictionary of the Mongol World Empire "
is out, and I think it's a great resource for SCAdians interested in the
Mongol empire. In addition to being set up as a dictionary, with thoughtful
entries on any number of topics, it contains six essays which give an
excellent overview of the Mongol influence in period, as well as appendices
on Mongolian scripts, Mongolian vocabulary, and a collection of recipes from
the Yinshan Zhengyao (1330), as well as a great bibliography for those of us
who want to learn more.

Paul, while not SCA himself, tried very hard to get the publishers to offer
a pre-publication discount to SCAdians, but in their infinite wisdom, they
KNEW that only libraries and universities would buy it, and after some
discussion, we have decided to ask you a favor when you order the book. At
the bottom of the order form online, there's a section which reads,
"Additional Instructions". Please add in words to the effect of, "By the
way, I'm not a library, I'm in the SCA, and I'm buying this book because of
my interest in historical recreation". We're hoping that if enough people do
this, it will occur to these people that, yes, there IS a market for
historical information beyond academia, and they'll keep their promise to
Paul to offer his books to us at a discount next time.

The least expensive way to order is from the publisher. Go to:

http://www.scarecrowpress.com/Catalog/SingleBook.shtml?command=Search&db=^DB
/CATALOG.db&eqSKUdata=0810845717

(Or go to www.scarecrowpress.com and put "buell" in the search engine, if
your browser won't take that URL)

and read the review. If you want to order it, click on "add to cart" and
follow the instructions, just like you might with any other online purchase.

If you buy it from them, they give you 15% off the List price- s/h is $4.00
for the first copy, $1 for each additional copy.

I think you'll like it, folks- I've read it, and I'm very impressed. It's
not so scholarly that it's incoherent, it simply gives you the information,
simply and straightforwardly.



Phlip

  If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is probably not a
cat.

Never a horse that cain't be rode,
And never a rider who cain't be throwed....


_______________________________________________
Sca-cooks mailing list
Sca-cooks@...
http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/sca-cooks

Greetings Jana!

Sunday, May 04, 2003, 8:19:46 PM, you wrote:

some corrections.

AK> No, a viniegret is a potato salad of potatoes, carrots, beetroot, salted
AK> cucumbers, chopped sauerkraut, green (canned) peanuts, dressed with
AK> vegetable oil (sunflower mainly).

Onions, of course. But no beans as Predslava suggested. Beans are
simply off menu for period Russian kitchen. Of all that food only
peanuts were used.



--
Bye,
Alex                            mailto:Posadnik@...

> AK> No, a viniegret is a potato salad of potatoes, carrots, beetroot, salted
> AK> cucumbers, chopped sauerkraut, green (canned) peanuts, dressed with
> AK> vegetable oil (sunflower mainly).
>
> Onions, of course. But no beans as Predslava suggested. Beans are
> simply off menu for period Russian kitchen. Of all that food only
> peanuts were used.
>

Alexey, are you saying that peanuts were used in period Russian cooking?
Do you mean some other food than the 'peanut' we Americans are used to,
which is native to South America?

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa   jenne@...
"I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
-- L.B. Johnson

> Not at all. It's a mixed salad with potatoes and/or beans and beets, cabbage,
> carrots, and other stuff. The dressing we use is oil and vinegar, but I've
> read recipes that call for mayonnaise. Not period without adjustments.

Thanks for the info, Predslava.

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa   jenne@...
"I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
-- L.B. Johnson

Reina,

Let me see if I have the progression straight.  On Thursday, you
email this list with a request for help on an `article' involving
the clothing from the time of Vlad Tepes in Wallachia.  You send the
article along with the request.  I looked it over and sent a reply
with some suggestions including the need for clarifications, the
need for more research, and suggestions to look for the Rumanian
monasteries online, as well as finding more books on the subject and
more portraits.  Your article included no citations of works or
websites and no bibliography. Your reply to my review was
basically, `I think my article is fine and houppelands and kaftans
are garments so similar as to be indistinguishable from each other
in cut and hang – give me your sources.". (and lampreys and bass are
both fish…. go look in a lake and the differences become evident
very quickly) So I wrote again, reiterating some of my points,
giving you the names of two of the monasteries, as well as their
dates of consecration, and apologizing that my sources were at home,
and I was at work… this exchange taking place at not quite noon my
time on a Thursday, it's only reasonable that I would be at work.
It's also reasonable that the resources and such for my *hobby*
would be at my home rather than my office.  Again, you ask for my
sources, even though I just gave you a few good leads that most
people with a basic web-search engine would have been able to
explore and comment upon. You also make no comments on several of
the longer points I made to your article.

Other gracious members of this list made recommendations for
research, including: the Writings of Elizabeth of Hungary, that you
shouldn't discount Vlad's years among the Ottomans as a probable
influence on his clothing, coins from the region, various art
periodicals such as the Smithsonian, and various art museums such as
the Louvre, the Hermitage, the Prado, The Met, the Getty, and the
National Museum of Art in Washington, DC.

After all of this exchange, you state that you will happily share
your sources once you get home – message sent on Friday at 2:45pm.
I say that I look forward to seeing your bibliography and I will
send some sources on Monday.

Hello, it's Monday and still no sources from you. Though on Sunday
at 3:30 you could take the time to write a rude letter, including no
sources of your own and again demanding my sources. Why is it
difficult to believe that my bibliographical information for my
hobby would be located at my home rather than in my office, which is
what your sarcastic remark implied?  And what are your sources?

I certainly did not mean to cast dispersions on your new group when
asking if they were the role playing game, it was the first 'Realms
of Avalon' that my search engine turned up in the very short time
that I had remaining in the office to do things other than work.
Most groups have good intentions and I too, will not debate which is
better.  I will state that your line of, "more focused on historical
accuracy and education" than the SCA was easy to see as a slam on
the SCA and the scholarship of its members.

The comments I've received offlist about you aren't very flattering
my dear. Your repeated requests for my sources without giving any of
yours lead many to believe that you haven't any sources and are
merely seeking mine to use as a `filler' bibliography on your
article.  In light of your reputation and your lack of citations and
bibliography to date; tell you what, I'll give you a peek at my
sources if you'll show me yours.  After all, it's Monday…..

Ionescu-Lămotescu, Maria. Vechea Artă Romậnescă, Cultura Naţională,
Bucureşti, 1924.

Information about Putna Monestary can be found online here:
http://www.geocities.com/minidava/ManastireaPutna.htm
http://www.bucovinaturism.ro/manastire_31.html

Information about Arbore Monestary can be found online here:
http://www.romania.maronet.net/engleza/monasteries/arbore.htm

So what are your sources again?

Be sure you look at Putna – they have a wonderful embroidery of the
second wife of Stephan cel Mere dated to 1477. She is wearing a long
overkaftan, the sleeves of which form a halfmoon at the inner elbow
for ease of movement. She is also wearing a large crown on her head;
one can see that her hair is parted in the center. There is a
netting that begins to cover her hair under the crown; it covers her
throat then descends into the collar of her gown.  On the collar are
two ornately beaded swastikas, I believe there are pearls along the
top edge of the collar.  She is also wearing a large collar in the
Byzantine style.  The cloth of her over-kaftan is a large pattern,
similar to those of the Ottomans and it was probably made of silk.
Her earrings are triangles, with a stone in the center of the
triangle and other stones hanging from the triangle.  Her temple
rings are long and beautifully beaded; they seem to originate both
within the higher portions of her crown as well as from the base of
the crown. – Oh, isn't this outfit the sort of thing I told you
already in earlier emails?

Guess that blows your houpeland and `they were wearing Western
European clothing' theory to bits.

How's the re-write of the article coming along?

Not that I have sources or knowledge in this area…….

What are your sources again?

Cu Drag,
Domina Despina ot Brasov

>
> jfn> Hm. There are references to vinegar and pickled cucumbers, lemons and
> jfn> plums in the Domostroi. Do these mean something else than pickled sallat?
> Yes, but the point is that Russian kitchen (in the snack part) was extremely
> mono-component in period. Salads of several components were introduced
> in 19 century, by its end. A good example is Olivier salad, created in
> 1890s or 1900s in a Moscow restaurant. Before that, all the pickled
> snacks were only pickled vegetables & mushrooms, also mono-component.
> Even different mushrooms were salted separately. And all that was
> served also mono-componently, salted mushrooms (each times naming
> which mushrooms exactly),

So which mushrooms are named in the Domostroi and other period texts?
Inquiring minds want to know!

>salted cucumbers, soaked apples, etc. They
> could dress it with vegetable oil, but that didn't make a salad in the
> modern sense.

I wasn't worried about Modern sense of salad, but period salats.

> BTW, in Domostroi,
> pickled lemons meant not a new taste but a lengthened shelf life. That
> meant salt more than vinegar.

I'm confused here. Can you give more information on the period method for
pickling lemons in Russia? All I have is the reference to pickled lemons
and vinegar from the Domostroi translation, and that's not much help in
reconstructing the recipe. Lemons with salt show up as a sallat in period
German cooking, I think, but I don't want to generalize from that if there
is period documentation for making them another way.

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa   jenne@...
"I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
-- L.B. Johnson

In a message dated 5/5/2003 5:54:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jenne@... writes:


> > Onions, of course. But no beans as Predslava suggested. Beans are
> > simply off menu for period Russian kitchen. Of all that food only
> > peanuts were used.
> >
>
> Alexey, are you saying that peanuts were used in period Russian cooking?
> Do you mean some other food than the 'peanut' we Americans are used to,
> which is native to South America?
>

I am not sure why Alex says "peanuts" when he is supposed to say green peas.
Some vinigret recipes call for those, though in my family we don't put them
in vinigret.

Liudmila


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was intrigued to find this review of Microcosm by Norman Davies and
Roger Moorhouse-- it's apparently a book about the development of the city
of Wroclaw/Breslau.
http://www.richmondreview.co.uk/books/microcosm.html
Has anybody read this book?

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa   jenne@...
"I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
-- L.B. Johnson

> > Alexey, are you saying that peanuts were used in period Russian cooking?
> > Do you mean some other food than the 'peanut' we Americans are used to,
> > which is native to South America?
>
> I am not sure why Alex says "peanuts" when he is supposed to say green peas.
> Some vinigret recipes call for those, though in my family we don't put them
> in vinigret.

Ah! That makes sense!

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa   jenne@...
"I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
-- L.B. Johnson

Hi, I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
I've found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if
you could expand upon your "you haven't dug far enough" comment.

Despina:
Thanks for pointing out the hole I dug, Stephania!  *grin*
I'll start by saying I know nothing from Polish and research can be
very difficult.

Stephania:
1)Where? I know Google, when I'm *really* motivated, there's my
uni's
library, and have just learned about the monistary frescos (thank
you!)... so where else to search? Any suggsted keywords to look for
that may not be obvious?

Despina:
Google and other search engines are a good start.

Many monasteries have museums within them or they preserve artifacts
left in their keeping.  Contacting the monasteries directly, once
you have a basic idea of what they might have in their care, is
another way to go.

Find out if your university has a Slavic or Near Eastern division –
if so, go and explore it for a day or five. *grin*  If not, figure
out where the books you would be interested in fall in the Dewey
Decimal System (or whatever shelving system your library uses) and
camp out in that section for a day or six.  Pick up the books and
look through them, even if they are in languages you aren't familiar
with….

Get a dictionary to/for that language and English and memorize terms
that will help you when looking through those books.  If it hasn't
any pictures but when looking at the index you see the word
for "costume" and "medieval" and "warfare" and whatever else you're
interested in, it might be worth your while to try translating those
chapters.  Search for books with those words in the titles.

Interlibrary Loan is your friend.  Some libraries charge a nominal
fee for this service, but it's generally worth it (most university
libraries don't charge for it, as it's built into the student's
fees).  Search the bibliography of the books you have – translate
the ones you can't read.  See if certain author's names turn up
consistently within your area of study and do a search on that
author. See if your local university has lending agreements with
other organizations and groups and search those library listings as
well.

As for keywords that might not be obvious, I'd say again, consult a
two language dictionary and go for it.  You'd be amazed at what
you'll find on websites done in a country's native language – many
of which don't have online translators attached to them so searching
for that word in English won't pop up the information, even though
it's out there and easily accessible.

Search the museums that might not be obvious to you.  As mentioned
in the earlier thread, the Louvre, the Hermitage, the Met, the
National Gallery in Washington DC.  Find out what museums in your
area have online collections.  Look through art books that cover the
centuries you want and then ask museum personel if they know
where "Cool Guy on a Horse" painted by Great Artist, a Saxon in the
year 1398 is currently located.  The more specific you can be with
your questions to museums, the better the answers you will recieve
from them.

Stephania:
2)Also Where: What other cultures would be related? I'm reading a
history of Poland-- it's amazing how many times people became
freinds, then enemies, then freind, etc-- and am trying to develop
an
understanding of which cultures they had 'positive' contact with,
when, but it's hard to tell what cultures to look into, first. Any
hints would be greatly appreciated...

Despina:
Make sure that the history you're reading isn't biased too heavily
toward any given side.  Reading multiple histories of a region is
best, when possible.  This gives you multiple points of view and
allows you to sort through the dreck and find the kernels of truth
in each to put together what you believe (and can support) to be a
cohesive restructuring of the actual history.  This can be
especially difficult with the countries that were formerly behind
the "Iron Curtain", due to restrictions on publications and
censorship.

That being said, how many times was the country over run by Group X?
For how many years were they occupied by Group X?  Any ideas as to
how many of Group X stayed in the area after the invasion? The lower
those numbers, the less impact on the locals that group was likely
to have had.

Is the country (or better yet, the city) which you're investigating
on a trade route?  Was the trade route major or minor? Did it serve
for several countries or just for the immediate area?

Is the country (or city) the site of a major religious `thing'?  Be
that a cathedral, a vision, a shrine, a piece of the cross, a
monastery, a major church, the only church for 100 miles, or some
other such?  If so, it might have been a pilgrimage place and the
citizens would have seen people coming from far away, wearing and
carrying (and eating) goodness only knows what – investigate those
pilgrims and the places from which they came.

Who did your rulers marry? From whence came the brides and grooms?
Grooms can have more of an impact on the society than brides –
depending, of course, on the layer of society into which they marry
and their ability to `keep' their wife. Philip II of Spain certainly
didn't have the sway over Mary of England that he would have liked.
Either way (bride or groom) the incoming half of the marriage would
most certainly have brought their own servants, clothing, sense of
style and taste; how much impact that taste had on the society into
which that person was thrust is a matter for investigation.

Stephania:
2)When? How far forward or back could a person extrapolate for
the "Mid-SCA" period? I know that, by the 16th century, fashions had
radically changed, but how far into the 15th century is "safe" for
late-ish 14th?

Despina:
I'm most comfortable within 50 years of the date one wants to
represent. That's 50 years before or behind; other people have other
fields of comfort for this.  Again, looking at the cultures
surrounding your area of interest, and the cultures with which yours
had major contact is going to give you a lot of information on which
to make solid educated guesses. Usually when focusing to either side
of a date, one can find a few pieces and clues to either side,
making hypothesis easier.

By narrowing the focus to a single date, one has put on blinders and
will often miss small but very helpful clues.  No person ever
arrived fully formed, aged 26 in the year 1539, complete with
clothing, food, armor, education, and background in his home.  Just
as now, that person who was 26 in 1539 became who he was through the
years that he had lived up to 1539.  So while it might not be
fashionable to have a Majolica compote in oranges and yellows any
longer, it might be what he's got on which to serve fruits to his
guests so he'll use it.

By focusing within 50 years to either side, you give yourself leeway
and the ability to look at more sources, which lead to more sources,
which lead…. And before you realize it, you'll be able to paint a
fairly accurate picture of a pretty tight time.... (of course, this
could be years, not months)

Also keep in mind if your geographic area (city or village) is close
to a major hub or out in the boonies.  Those in the boonies are
going to be wearing last decade's fashions rather than just last
year's.  Many people forget the length of time it could take for a
fashion change to reach some areas in that time period.

Long winded, but I hope it helps.

Smiles,
Despina

> Hi, I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
> I've found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if
> you could expand upon your "you haven't dug far enough" comment.

I've got a list of some books here:
http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html

Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this with
more material I have on hand? THanks!

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa   jenne@...
"I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
-- L.B. Johnson

By the way, I welcome comments and additions to the site below if anyone
feels like looking at it and jumping in.

> I've got a list of some books here:
> http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html
>
> Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this with
> more material I have on hand? THanks!
>
> -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa   jenne@...
> "I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
> tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
> -- L.B. Johnson
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa   jenne@...
"I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
-- L.B. Johnson

I'm not a Khazar expert, but I found a neat article (in Russian, sorry!) on
Khazar costuming on the Nasledie Predkov (Moscow recreation group) web page:

http://www.dom-np.narod.ru/rekon/rhazar.htm

There are quite a few pictures, mostly patterns.  The author lists 2 sources he
used.  They are:

Dode, Z. V.  Srednevekovy kostium narodov Severnogo Kavkaza.  Ocherki istorii.
(Medieval costume of the peoples of the Northern Caucasus.) - M: Izdatel'skaya
firma "Vostochnaya literatura" RAN, 2001.

Artamonov, M. I.  Istorii khazar.  2-e izd.  (History of the Khazars.  2nd
edition.) - SPb.: Izdatel'stvo "Lan'", 2001.

-- Kseniia





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lady Kseniia Smol'nyanina
Shire of Dragon's Mist
kseniia@...
          ********
MKA: Christine Jacobs
www.geocities.com/chrstnj
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi,  I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
I've found a very limited amount of information,>>

You might try finding this book via ILL:

Ubior dworski w Polsce w dobie pierwszych Jagiellonow. Krystyna
Turska. (Wroclaw: Polskiej Akademii Nauk, 1987)  ISBN: 8304026236 :;
LCCN: 88-142687.

It focuses on the Jagellonian period and has lots of pictures.  The book is in
Polish, though.

I've been trying to track one down for purchase for quite some time with no
luck.

In service, I remain

Cainder

There is a wonderful book about Saint Elizabeth of Hungary with many
descriptions of clothing.  Of course this is 13th century but would
have some influence.  Published in 1932 in German by Elisabeth von
Schmidt=Pauli.  Translated by Olga Marx

Saint Elizabeth, Sister of Saint Francis, Henry Holr and Company.

No, I will not surrender my copy.

Kinjal of Moravia

Thank you everyone for your comments, you have all given me things to think
about. :-)

My garden is currently running amuck with a very large rosemary bush, and a
much smaller lavender plant, and I just recently planted seeds for
chamomile, basil, coriander, and marjoram, so those will be the plants I
will be focusing on for a while.

Again, thanks for everyone's help.

~Katerina



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Charted Peasant Designs from Saxon Transylvania by Heinz Edgar Kiewe

Folk And Festival Costume of the World by R. Turner Wilcox

Dracula Prince of Many Faces by Radu R. Florescu and Raymond T.
McNally

Transylvania History and Reality by Milton G. Lehrer

The Handbook of German Dress by Fr. Hottenroth

Numerous other books on European costume.  My personal library
includes:
1. Japanese Costume and the Makers of Its Elegant Tradition
by Helen Benton Minnich



2. Fashion, from ancient Egypt to the present day
by Mila Contini



3. Oriental costume
by Jacqueline Ayer



4. Historic Costume: A REsumE of Style and Fashion from Remote Times
to the Nineteen-Sixties
by Katherine Morris Lester



5. History of Fashions
by Rosana. Pistolese



6. Book of Costume
by Millia Davenport Vol 1 & 2



7. The Mode in Costume
by R. Turner Wilcox



8. Short History of Costume and Armour 1066-1485 vol.1
by Francis M. Kelly, Randolph Schwabe



9. Dressing the Part: A History of Costume for the Theatre.
by Fairfax Walkup



10. A history of shoe fashions: a study of shoe design in relation to
costume for shoe designers, pattern cutters, manufacturers, fashion
students and dress designers, etc
by Eunice Wilson



  11. Costume Throughout the Ages.
by Mary, Evans



12. Historic Costume: A Chronicle of Fashion in Western Europe 1490-
1790
by Francis M. Kelly, Randolph Schwabe



13. Costumes and Styles.
by Henny Harald. Hansen



14. A history of make-up
by Maggie Angeloglou



15. Figleafing Through History
by C. Harris



16. Folk and Festival Costumes of the World
by R. Turner Wilcox



17. The Concise History of Costume and Fashion, James Laver





18. Costume Through the Ages, James Laver





19. Costume, James Laver





20. Costume of the Western World - Fashions of the Renaissance in
England, France, Spain and Holland, James Laver





21. A Short History of the Scottish Dress, R.M.D. Grange





22. The Mode in Hats and Headdress, R. Turner Wilcox




23. Body and Clothes: An Illustrated History of Costume, R.Broby-
Johansen





24. Underwear: A History, Elizabeth Ewing

Online Sources:

http://www.eliznik.org.uk/
The Eliznik Romania pages

http://keptar.demasz.hu/keptar/tours/11_16_c1.html#top
Painting and Sculpture in Medieval Hungary

http://keptar.demasz.hu/keptar/english/~misc/faragvan/15_sz/1451-
500/zarandok.html
A carving of St Anthony dated 1450-60

http://keptar.demasz.hu/keptar/tours/buda_e.html
Fragments of Statues from Buda Castle (age of Sigismund)

http://www.budapeststyle.com/travel.html
Transylvanian Treasures

http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/w/weyden/rogier/16portra/index.html
German Portraits 15th cen

http://gallery.euroweb.hu/index1.html
Web Gallery of Art

Lastly, I have persused the files section of the SIG list
extensively.

Regards,
Reina

--- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
> Reina,
>
> Let me see if I have the progression straight.  On Thursday, you
> email this list with a request for help on an `article' involving
> the clothing from the time of Vlad Tepes in Wallachia.  You send
the
> article along with the request.  I looked it over and sent a reply
> with some suggestions including the need for clarifications, the
> need for more research, and suggestions to look for the Rumanian
> monasteries online, as well as finding more books on the subject
and
> more portraits.

For which I politely thanked you.

  Your article included no citations of works or
> websites and no bibliography.

Which I mentioned myself and said I would share my info when it was
completed.  Gee, I was also at work and, hey, my books and online
sources were at home.  Funny how that happens, eh?


Your reply to my review was
> basically, `I think my article is fine and houppelands and kaftans
> are garments so similar as to be indistinguishable from each other
> in cut and hang – give me your sources.".

Exactly where did I say that?  It was actually someone else who
maintained that it was probable that they were wearing houppelands
akin to those being worn in Central Europe.  However, I do agree with
her reasoning.  Nor did I say houppelands and kaftans were
indistinguishable from one another.  What I said was that both were
flowing drapey garments and that if a houppeland had been made of an
Ottoman Turk fabric it would be reasonable for others to believe they
were seeing an "Eastern" garment.


(and lampreys and bass are
> both fish…. go look in a lake and the differences become evident
> very quickly) So I wrote again, reiterating some of my points,
> giving you the names of two of the monasteries, as well as their
> dates of consecration, and apologizing that my sources were at
home,
> and I was at work… this exchange taking place at not quite noon my
> time on a Thursday, it's only reasonable that I would be at work.
> It's also reasonable that the resources and such for my *hobby*
> would be at my home rather than my office.  Again, you ask for my
> sources, even though I just gave you a few good leads that most
> people with a basic web-search engine would have been able to
> explore and comment upon. You also make no comments on several of
> the longer points I made to your article.

Gee, was I supposed to comment on every "point" you made?  So sorry,
silly me.  Nor did I ever pretend to doubt that you had sources at
home, how ridiculous.  What I found irritiating was that you kept
repeating that your sources were at home, therefore making your
response nothing more than your personal opinion with no sources to
back it up.  Which is exactly what you accuse me of.  How strange.

>
> Other gracious members of this list made recommendations for
> research, including: the Writings of Elizabeth of Hungary, that you
> shouldn't discount Vlad's years among the Ottomans as a probable
> influence on his clothing, coins from the region, various art
> periodicals such as the Smithsonian, and various art museums such
as
> the Louvre, the Hermitage, the Prado, The Met, the Getty, and the
> National Museum of Art in Washington, DC.

Yes and I have taken advantage of many of them, some well before they
were suggested by others.  I've searched every major museum with an
online collection well before I ever thought about writing this
article.  There just isn't much out there in the way of Eastern
European art showing secular subjects before 1470.  Period.

>
> After all of this exchange, you state that you will happily share
> your sources once you get home – message sent on Friday at 2:45pm.
> I say that I look forward to seeing your bibliography and I will
> send some sources on Monday.
>
> Hello, it's Monday and still no sources from you. Though on Sunday
> at 3:30 you could take the time to write a rude letter, including
no
> sources of your own and again demanding my sources. Why is it
> difficult to believe that my bibliographical information for my
> hobby would be located at my home rather than in my office, which
is
> what your sarcastic remark implied?

Once again you are being ridiculous.  For the record, I did complete
my list Saturday morning, alas my computer crashed before I could
post it.  And I simply didn't have time or patience to reconstruct it
again until today.  So go ahead and add calling me a liar to your
list of sins, I really don't care.

   And what are your sources?

They've been sent seperately.

>
> I certainly did not mean to cast dispersions on your new group when
> asking if they were the role playing game, it was the first 'Realms
> of Avalon' that my search engine turned up in the very short time
> that I had remaining in the office to do things other than work.
> Most groups have good intentions and I too, will not debate which
is
> better.  I will state that your line of, "more focused on
historical
> accuracy and education" than the SCA was easy to see as a slam on
> the SCA and the scholarship of its members.

The only way you could have taken this as an insult to the SCA is if
you too feel there's a problem with the SCA's level of historical
accuracy.  There are SEVERAL historical re-creation groups out there
that are more historically accurate than the SCA (and if anyone
desperately wants a list of them I'll be happy to dig that info up as
well, just please mail me privately as it's OT to this list)and I
don't think there's anyone out there who isn't aware of that.  All
you have to do to participate in the SCA is show up in anything you
call an attempt at pre 17th century costuming.  You do not need to
have any knowledge of histry nor desire to acquire any. That's hardly
a distinguishing feature of a hardcore historical accuracy group.
And the SCA seems quite happy with this state of affairs and hey,
there's no reason why they shouldn't be.  However, I was not aware
that this was an SCA only list.  I was under the impression that it
was the Slavic Interest Group list.  I hope the list owner will tell
me if I was wrong.

>
> The comments I've received offlist about you aren't very flattering
> my dear. Your repeated requests for my sources without giving any
of
> yours lead many to believe that you haven't any sources and are
> merely seeking mine to use as a `filler' bibliography on your
> article.
In light of your reputation and your lack of citations and
> bibliography to date; tell you what, I'll give you a peek at my
> sources if you'll show me yours.

Hmmm... ya know, I'm really trying but I just can't seem to work up
any interest in what you or anyone else who thinks badly of me says
or feels.  I'm not even going to ask about my supposed "reputation".
Your dig was low enough to speak for itself and illuistrate what kind
of person you are.  However, I asked for your sources ONCE because
you did not initially offer to share them.  You seemed to be under
the impression that I hould just take your word as gospel.  Perhaps
you expected to be cited as a soure?  Then, in my response to YOUR
nasty letter I merely pointed out that it was disappointing that you
had used your time to write a nasty letter rather than send your
sources.  That hardly qualifies as repeated badgering about your
sources.



After all, it's Monday…..
>
> Ionescu-Lămotescu, Maria. Vechea Artă Romậnescă, Cultura
Naţională,
> Bucureşti, 1924.

I will try to find this book but I suspect there is no English
translation readily available.
>
> Information about Putna Monestary can be found online here:
> http://www.geocities.com/minidava/ManastireaPutna.htm
> http://www.bucovinaturism.ro/manastire_31.html
>
  Hmmm...let's see, 2 online sources in a language I don't read.  Feel
free to feel superior now.  However, since I am not obviously as
learned and bilingual as yourself they are of no use to me.
Particularly as they appear to be text only sites, or at least to
have no pics of people possibly wearing 1450's clothing.  Yeah, real
helpful.  Not.

> Information about Arbore Monestary can be found online here:
> http://www.romania.maronet.net/engleza/monasteries/arbore.htm

While this site was interesting alas, it too did not have any pics.
Putna has a listing there but no pics, certainly not the one you
describe below.


>
> So what are your sources again?
>
> Be sure you look at Putna – they have a wonderful embroidery of the
> second wife of Stephan cel Mere dated to 1477. She is wearing a
long
> overkaftan, the sleeves of which form a halfmoon at the inner elbow
> for ease of movement. She is also wearing a large crown on her
head;
> one can see that her hair is parted in the center. There is a
> netting that begins to cover her hair under the crown; it covers
her
> throat then descends into the collar of her gown.  On the collar
are
> two ornately beaded swastikas, I believe there are pearls along the
> top edge of the collar.  She is also wearing a large collar in the
> Byzantine style.  The cloth of her over-kaftan is a large pattern,
> similar to those of the Ottomans and it was probably made of silk.
> Her earrings are triangles, with a stone in the center of the
> triangle and other stones hanging from the triangle.  Her temple
> rings are long and beautifully beaded; they seem to originate both
> within the higher portions of her crown as well as from the base of
> the crown. – Oh, isn't this outfit the sort of thing I told you
> already in earlier emails?
>
> Guess that blows your houpeland and `they were wearing Western
> European clothing' theory to bits.

That depends a lot on the pic.  Were these perhaps coronation robes?
Also, it's from the late 1470's, not the 50' and 60's.  You can argue
that there isn't much difference and you may be right and you may
not.  Extensive google searces on Stephan cel Mere and Putna fail to
turn up this pic.

>
> How's the re-write of the article coming along?
>
> Not that I have sources or knowledge in this area…….
>
> What are your sources again?
>
> Cu Drag,
> Domina Despina ot Brasov

Sources, such as they are at this point (gosh I do seem to recall I
mentioned at some point that I'm studying this, not that I'm a master
of it) are posted and darned more extensive than yours, the few of
which you deigned to share being completely worthless.
Kindly do not write to me again.  You are a mean spirited egocentric
harridan and even if you did have anything of any worth to share I
doubt I could accept it from you at this point.  If you feel you
simply MUST get one more dig in at me than please send it privately
rather than subjecting the list to more of your poison and spite.
Regards,
Reina

Greetings Jadwiga!

Friday, May 02, 2003, 5:22:55 PM, you wrote:


jfn> The pages are from a particular manuscript dating from the Mongol :
jfn> [Quoting from the exhibtion]:"   Pages from the Great Mongol Shahnama
jfn> (Book of Kings). Iran (probably Tabriz), 1330s
jfn> Ink, colors, and gold on paper"
I'd just recall the sheer fact that as in Khalifate times Persians &
the Tajick bore 99% work of science & culture, and the greatest
majority of scholars (and poets as well) were called Arabic but were
Tajick or Persian by birth & language. Thus, isn't it a too bold
statement that Persia simply devoured the invaders rather than was
influenced by them? Persia had too strong cultural links with China,
especially eastern (Western Turkestan/Sinjan), to explain all the
changes by Mongolian influence. I'd say the musicians played the same
tune despite all changes of the band-master.

jfn> The people who put together this exhibit say:
jfn> " Of particular note are two royal Ilkhanid manuscripts.the Jamic
jfn> al-tavarikh (the first-ever "History of the World," two volumes of which
jfn> have survived) and the Great Mongol Shahnama (Book of Kings). The choice
jfn> of specific episodes of the Shahnama for illustration and the recasting of
jfn> Iranian heroes in the guise and costume of Mongol rulers indicate that
jfn> these works served the political purpose of legitimizing the ruling elite.
jfn> Large sections of both manuscripts are being reunited specifically for
jfn> this exhibition."
And isn't it saying by itself that not "Secret story of the Mongols"
was illuminated, but the extremely native "Shakh-Nameh"? The artists
even by the choice of their art theme told the invaders for another
time that it was them who had to change, absorbing ages of highest
culture. AFAIR Timurid empire was the first to drop the Mongol dynasty
and to start the dynasty of their own.



--
Bye,
Alex                            mailto:Posadnik@...

Greetings

Monday, May 05, 2003, 4:53:38 PM, you wrote:



jfn> Alexey, are you saying that peanuts were used in period Russian cooking?
jfn> Do you mean some other food than the 'peanut' we Americans are used to,
jfn> which is native to South America?
Damn. Peas of course. Last four weeks drove me completely crazy.
Sorry, peas - not peanuts.




--
Bye,
Alex                            mailto:Posadnik@...