Slavic Interest Group Mailing List (SIG-L) Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Last update:  July 18, 2000

Main SIG page
http://slavic.freeservers.com

Main SIG-L page (message archives, etc.)
http://www.egroups.com/group/sig

Old SIG Message Archives
http://sig-arc.hypermart.net/

SIG organizer
Paul Wickenden of Thanet (goldschp@...)

SIG-L moderators
Default  (sig-owner@onelist.com)
Yana  (jdmiller2@...)
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***********************************************
List Basics

** What is sig@egroups.com?
The SIG List (hereafter called "SIG-L") provides a discussion forum on the
history and culture of the Medieval Slavic, Eastern European, and Central
European world.  We are aimed specifically towards members of the Society for
Creative Anachronism (SCA) with Slavic, Eastern European and Central European
personas, but we provide information and resources to anyone.

** Are SIG-L and the Slavic Interest Group the same organization?
No.  SIG-L is an offshoot of the larger and older Slavic Interest Group
(hereafter called SIG").  SIG-L was established as an additional way for members
of SIG to talk to each other more quickly than via the quarterly newsletter. 
Not all the members of SIG are on SIG-L and vice versa.  This means that if you
are a member of SIG-L, it does not automatically make you a member of SIG.  To
become a member of SIG, write to the SIG organizer at goldschp@... or go
to http://slavic.freeservers.com and follow the links there.  Membership is
free.  We just ask that you be willing to share what you know with the rest of
us.

** What cultures does SIG-L cover?
SIG-L (and SIG) covers all the former members of the Soviet Union (just for
convenience, no political agenda is implied).  We encompass the medieval
cultures of Russia, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, Transylvania, Latvia, Lithuania,
Karelia, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Dalmatia,
Albania, Poland, Estonia, Belarus, Moldova, Armenia, Georgia, Turkmenistan,
Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, Kirgizistan, Kazakhstan, Turkestan, Khazaria, and any
related ethnic groups.  We aren't _just_ a Slavic organization, it is just
simpler to call ourselves "SIG" instead of trying to incorporate the initials of
all the countries and groups we cover.

** You mentioned a newsletter...
SIG publishes "Slovo", our quarterly newsletter.  "Slovo" means "word" in many
Slavic languages, so we thought it would be a good name for the newsletter.  It
comes out in the middle of the months of January, April, July and October.  The
submission deadlines are the first of those same months.  Slovo is available
free on the web off the main SIG page.  Back issues are also archived there.  If
you need a paper copy, write to the editor at goldschp@....  Paper copies
are also free, but donations are cheerfully accepted to cover copying and
mailing costs.

** Does SIG-L have archives?
Yes, in two places.  The older archives can be viewed at
http://sig-arc.hypermart.net/  The more recent archives are at
http://www.egroups.com/group/sig

** What can I talk about here on SIG-L?
Anything relating to pre-1650 CE (approximately) Slavic or Eastern or Central
European history and culture or anything Slavic, Eastern European or Central
European as it pertains to the SCA is welcome here.  Sometimes we talk about
modern subjects, which is okay as long as we generally stay on topic.  Feel free
to start a new topic, ask questions or debate a subject.  We have beginners on
the List as well as advanced and professional researchers, but everyone is
friendly and we all welcome questions and subjects at any level.

** What is not permitted on the list?
a)  Personal Flamewars.  Debating a subject is fine, heated argument is not.
b)  Ethnic and Regional insults.  This is absolutely not acceptable here.
c)  SPAM.  This includes chain letters, appeals from charities, virus warnings,
etc.
d)  UCE (Unsolicited Commercial Email).  Commercial posts are allowed if they
are pre-approved by one of the moderators.

**  What are the basic commands for this list?
SIG-L is based off ONEList, a web-based provider.  Through ONEList
(http://www.onelist.com) you can subscribe, unsubscribe and otherwise manage
your account.  Simply enter your email address and the password you were given
when you subscribed and follow the directions there.  If you are not yet a
member, follow the directions given there to sign up for an account.

**  What if I don't have web-access or don't want to use the ONEList website?
Not a problem, you can still manage your subscription easily (and you don't even
need a password).  Send a blank email (no message or subject) to the appropriate
address below:

sig-subscribe@egroups.com - subscribe to SIG
sig-unsubscribe@egroups.com - unsubscribe from SIG
sig-digest@egroups.com - switch your subscription to digest mode
sig-normal@egroups.com - switch your subscription to normal mode

Be sure to reply to any message that ONEList sends you about your account (and
save your password if you were given one!).  If you don't reply, ONEList may
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This is a safety precaution done to prevent subscribers from being the victims
of pranksters.

**I'm on the digest.  How do I reply to separate messages?
To reply to a message found on the digest, 'cut' the contents of the message
that you wish to quote, 'paste' it in a message to sig@egroups.com, and add your
comments.  Make sure you do NOT reply directly to the From: field on the digest!
If this becomes a habit, then you will be put on a moderated status and
misdirected replies will be silently deleted.

**********************************************
List Courtesy

**I think that someone is being rude and insulting!  What can I do?
First, try reading the post again.  Sometimes it is hard to tell what a person
is really saying because of the difficulties of communicating using email.  It
also helps if you read all the posts on a subject before you respond.  Sometimes
the concern has already been addressed.

If you still have a problem with what is being said, you have two options:
a) Talk to a moderator about your concerns.  It is their job is to handle stuff
like this.
b) Reply to the sender of the message without flaming.

**What is "flaming"?
Flaming is a post, usually containing an argument or reply, that serves only to
exacerbate the situation.  If you have written something in the heat of anger,
irritation or excitement please re-read the post and take out the elements of
possible insult while getting the logic of your point across.  Flaming is a big
"no-no" on this List and offenders will be put on probation and moderated
(messages will be reviewed by a moderator before being sent to the List). 
Overstepping the bounds of civility, on mistake or on purpose, will not be
tolerated.

**I think we are drifting off topic/I think this list is too advanced for me.
If you are concerned that the topic has drifted, feel free to restate the
original topic and try to get everyone back on track. Just do it in a polite
manner.  As for concerns about the List being too advanced, please ask questions
about what you don't understand.  You will find people are very willing to
explain and clarify.  While it is true that sometimes the discussions can get a
bit esoteric, please remember that this List is aimed towards all levels of
research interest.

**Anything else I should know?
a) Please clip your posts!  This means only quoting what is relevant to your own
post and not including the entire letter unless absolutely necessary (which is
extremely rare).  It gets very annoying very quickly to have to page down
through an entire letter (or more!) that someone has stuck on the end of their
reply.

b) Keep subject lines relevant.  If a message thread has evolved to something
that has nothing to do with the original subject, please feel free to change the
subject line to something more appropriate.

***********************************************
Research

** Can you recommend some books for different eras and peoples?
There is an extensive bibliography (with notes) on the web at the main SIG page 
You can also write to the list and ask for recommendations or reviews of
specific books, but it is a lot faster if you look at the SIG bibliography
first.

** Where can I find help developing my persona?
You are in luck!  There are several web pages that members of SIG-L have
created.  We call them Knowledge Pages.  They are aimed towards a specific
country and include information on dress, food, naming practices, persona
development, history, language and other themes.  Simply find the Knowledge Page
you wish and read, read, read!

**What are "the Knowledge Pages?"
They are a series of country-based web pages that are organized using similar
subject categories to aid research. Here you can find information on a wide
variety of subjects such as food, dress, persona development, history and much
more.  Here are the Knowledge Pages we have so far:

BALTIC STATES (includes Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1336/baltic/

CROATIA
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1336/croatia/

GEORGIA/CAUCAUSES
http://www.angelfire.com/or/caucasus

HUNGARY
http://tulgey.browser.net/~hungary/

POLAND
http://tulgey.browser.net/~jenne/poland/index.html

ROMANIA
http://members.xoom.com/Cosmotopia/romania/indexr.html

RUSSIA
http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~jdmiller2/knowledge/main.html
(For now, this includes Ukraine, as well as ethnic groups residing in the modern
day Russian Federation)

SLOVAKIA/CZECH REPUBLIC
http://www.crosswinds.net/czech-rep/~anezka/knowledge.html

Knowledge Pages in the works:
--Transylvania

** Where can I find someone near me?
Feel free to ask on SIG-L!  This is also where becoming a member of SIG comes in
handy.  SIG maintains a member list that lists name, location, interests and
contact information.  You can simply scan the list and contact whoever you
choose.  It is linked off the main SIG page under "members".

**  Are there recipes for my culture? Where would I find them?
**  Where can I get ideas for clothing from my culture?
**  What about music and art?

To all the above: First, check out the appropriate Knowledge Page for the
culture in question.  You might also want to check out the Florilegium, a major
collection of messages arranged by subject headings.  The Florilegium is at
http://lg_photo.home.texas.net/florilegium/index.html
If you can't find answers there, try writing to the List.

We hope this FAQ has been helpful.  If you have any further questions or
suggestions, please let us know.

Happy Researching!

In a message dated 11/30/00 4:19:48 PM EST, jtolbert@... writes:

> I hope that no one considers this spam . . .
>
>  I just came across a computer based Russian language course
>  for $ 7.95 - I ordered a copy in hopes that it will help bring back
>  what I semi learned back in 1966.
>
>  The url is :
>
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>  http://www.arcamax.com/freebies/ei001129lrn
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  Again, I apologize to anyone who considers this spam.

I don't...please let me know the quality levels when you recieve it, I have
been considering something similar.

TwoSnakes

>> I hope that no one considers this spam . . .
>>
>>  I just came across a computer based Russian language course
>>  for $ 7.95 - I ordered a copy in hopes that it will help bring back
<snip>

It isn't spam or UCE as long as it is relevant to this newsgroup.  As the
FAQ says, commercial messages are fine, as long as they aren't too frequent
(and they aren't too long).  If there is ever a doubt, please write to me
and I'll let you know if the message is appropriate.

--Yana, guard dog

Out of curiosity I am wondering which eating utensils/gear would have been
used by the Kievan Rus, or in use in mid-thirteenth cent. Russia.  Could
someone with more familiarity on the subject please offer some suggestions?

--Sofya Chyudka

On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 ssaucer@... wrote:

> Would this help me to read church records written 1880-90? The ones I
> want are from Poland, but they are supposed to be written in Russian.

You might ask for help through the Polish Genealogical Society of
America.  They have a website at http://www.pgsa.org/

--Walraven

Spoons and knives. Wood, bone, the usual materials. No forks.

Predslava.

"Anne M. McKinney" wrote:

> Out of curiosity I am wondering which eating utensils/gear would have been
> used by the Kievan Rus, or in use in mid-thirteenth cent. Russia.  Could
> someone with more familiarity on the subject please offer some suggestions?

I thought the concept of 'silverware' came from Persia. It could possibly have
appeared in Kievan Rus via Khazaria/the Silk Road. That's what I think anyway.
But probably only the nobles could have afforded it.

Laura

Ok, and what kind of cups/mugs/bowls did they drink out of? (REally pushing
it now -_-)  Once when I was in a museum I saw examples of big ladle-like
bowls that important people drank out of, but I don't know which time
periods those date to or if that style was restricted to only the
higher-ups.  If not, how can I find one today?  ^_^

--Sofya Chyudka
Thanks for all the help!

Laura,
Your line of reasoning is not very good, but it is true that (rich) nobles
had spoons, bowls and other gear made out of silver. They were definately in
use by  the 13th century.
Anne,  I loaned  my books out, which is why I didn't reply earlier and can't
give details now -- if you give me a month I'll come back with all sorts of
pictures and dates and things.  Well, month and a half, I won't do it on New
Years' Eve :).
Not sure what you mean by the big ladle-like thing, but I think you are
talking about a kovsh, which is basically a bowl with a handle.  Those
existed in the 13th century too.

-Dmitriy

>I thought the concept of 'silverware' came from Persia. It could possibly
>have
>appeared in Kievan Rus via Khazaria/the Silk Road. That's what I think
>anyway.
>But probably only the nobles could have afforded it.
>
>Laura
>
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> Anne,  I loaned  my books out, which is why I didn't reply earlier and
can't
> give details now -- if you give me a month I'll come back with all sorts
of
> pictures and dates and things.  Well, month and a half, I won't do it on
New
> Years' Eve :).
> Not sure what you mean by the big ladle-like thing, but I think you are
> talking about a kovsh, which is basically a bowl with a handle.  Those
> existed in the 13th century too.
>
> -Dmitriy

That is more than fair.  I think kovsh sounds right, by your
description--they looked to me like heavily decorated, boat-shaped bowls
with handles.  Thank you,
--Sofya

> Spoons and knives. Wood, bone, the usual materials. No forks.
> Predslava.

I've seen several very late period examples of silver, round-bowled spoons
carried in ornate leather or embroidered cases...
--
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise       jenne@...
disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
"I do my job. I refuse to be responsible for other people's managerial
hallucinations." -- Lady Jemina Starker

>>I've seen several very late period examples of silver, round-bowled
spoons
>>carried in ornate leather or embroidered cases...

Where have you seen these spoon cases?  How late is "very late period?"
And what did the designs on them look like?  What's more, where can I
find pictures of them?

Vasilisa Myshkina
________________________________________________________________
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> >>I've seen several very late period examples of silver, round-bowled
> spoons
> >>carried in ornate leather or embroidered cases...
> Where have you seen these spoon cases?  How late is "very late period?"
> And what did the designs on them look like?  What's more, where can I
> find pictures of them?
> Vasilisa Myshkina

Oh dear, I'm having one of my vague moments. I _think_ one of them may be
in the Russian embroidery books-- Kat'ryna? Any clues?

--
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise       jenne@...
disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
"I do my job. I refuse to be responsible for other people's managerial
hallucinations." -- Lady Jemina Starker

At 01:55 PM 12/3/00 -0500, you wrote:
>> Spoons and knives. Wood, bone, the usual materials. No forks.
>> Predslava.
>
>I've seen several very late period examples of silver, round-bowled
spoons
>carried in ornate leather or embroidered cases...

But surely they had eating tools before late period -- soup and
suchlike is damned awful difficult to eat without a spoon!

Alanna
***********
Saying of the day:
Politics is a rotten egg; if broken, it stinks. -  Russian Proverb

<snip>

> That is more than fair.  I think kovsh sounds right, by your
> description--they looked to me like heavily decorated, boat-shaped
bowls
> with handles.  Thank you,

I saw several examples of this type of utinsel while I was in
Poland.  One was made out of a what looked like a large snail shell
and the handle looked like a turtle's head. Dated xvii-xviii
centuries.

Landolf

--- In sig@egroups.com, Jenne Heise <jenne@m...> wrote:
> > Spoons and knives. Wood, bone, the usual materials. No forks.
> > Predslava.
>
> I've seen several very late period examples of silver, round-bowled
spoons
> carried in ornate leather or embroidered cases...

The Szlachta, or nobility, in Poland carried these in their boots
during the Hussar era (xvi-xviii centuries).  Some of the cases
contained knives and forks, too.
I purchased a silver spoon in Germany and have made a case for it.
The spoon has a rose motif on the handle that is supposedly from the
time of the reign of Charlemagne.

Landolf

<snip>
> Where have you seen these spoon cases?  How late is "very late
period?"
> And what did the designs on them look like?  What's more, where can
I
> find pictures of them?

I have a picture of one in the catalog from the exhibit "The Land of
the Winged Horsemen".  I can scan it and send it to you, if you  like.

Landolf

I'd go with Predslava on this - the majority would be using wood or bone.

LATER materials might have included tin and brass, too. For the Bohemophiles
out there... this from the permanent exhibition in the City of Prague
Museum:

[quote]
233.
Brass spoon, 16th century.
Wooden spoon.
Brass spoon with mascharon, 16th century.

Cutlery was still not commonly used even in the Renaissance, with the
exception of forks used to transfer meat from the serving dish to the plate,
and various types of knives for carving and slicing.
[unquote]


Cheers!

Alastair

---------------------------
Alastair Millar, BSc(Hons)
Consultancy and translation for the heritage industry
e-mail: alastair@...,    http://www.skriptorium.cz
P.O.Box 685, CZ 111 21 Prague 1, Czech Republic

Jenne Heise sez:
>
> > Where have you seen these spoon cases?  How late is "very late period?"
> > And what did the designs on them look like?  What's more, where can I
> > find pictures of them?
> > Vasilisa Myshkina
>
> Oh dear, I'm having one of my vague moments. I _think_ one of them may be
> in the Russian embroidery books-- Kat'ryna? Any clues?

Erm, uhh. I'm remembering spoons but not spoon cases...I'll have to look.

Kat'ryna
--
Kate Jones                         |     I turned my world upside-down
kate@...           |  and that's how everything landed...

Landolf

Yes, a picture would be useful.  Thank you.

Vasilisa
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>> That is more than fair.  I think kovsh sounds right, by your
>> description--they looked to me like heavily decorated, boat-shaped
>bowls
>> with handles.  Thank you,

Yes, it is a kovsh.  Drinking-vessels with a single handle that is
(usually) offset vertically and runs parallel to the ovate or boat-shaped bowl.

--Yana

http://www.russianarts.com/fab2kovsh.html
A silver-gilt and shaded cloisonné enamel kovsh decorated with acorns on
dark blue background in the Pan-Slavic style.  By Fabergé,
Moscow,1896-1908, length - 3.25"
Modern, but drool, drool.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6422/apc5.html
Bratina and Kovsh  Novgorod, 1428-1435; Moscow, 16th c. Silver
If you look at the kovsh, there is a little figure at the bottom.  Probably
meant as a suprise for the boyar who drinks all his mead!  :-)

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6422/apc4.html
Novgorod, 1428-1435; Moscow, first quarter of the 16th c. Silver Hammering,
engraving, casting, gilding 17x12x5 cm; 35.5x24x5 cm

I found a nice site today, full of pics of 19th and 20th century women's
folk clothing.  The dress, while not SCA period, does give a person a good
idea of what late-period festival outfits _could_ have looked like.  The
site is an MLS (master of library sciences) project, and is very nicely
arranged.  What I really like about it is that the author has included the
regional variations of headdresses (although captions would be helpful). So
those of you who are lost when we start talking about kokoshniks, here's a
guide for you!  Gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous!!!

http://www.buckeyenet.net/users/mayberry/Index.htm
(a bit slow loading)

--Yana

It'll have to be this weekend when I get to my home computer.

Yana, if I send the pics to you, too , can you put them in the
picture archive?

Landolf

--- In sig@egroups.com, Britta Parsons <vasalisa@j...> wrote:
> Landolf
>
> Yes, a picture would be useful.  Thank you.
>
> Vasilisa
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

>Yana, if I send the pics to you, too , can you put them in the
>picture archive?
>
>Landolf

Sure!  I always welcome pictures for the archive.  And pictures for the
photo gallery of SIG people too (hint, hint).

--Yana, who is awaiting the end of the semester anxiously, not only because
she will finally be graduating, but because she can update the Russian
Knowledge Page and work on other SIG related matters.  :-)

I am allowing this message through even though it isn't really
related to our discussions on the SIG-List.  If you answer the
questions, be sure to reply PRIVATELY to the author so that
the List doesn't get clogged up.

--Yana, list moderator

-------------------------------

Dear Sig Listers

The Verb 'to be.'
I am  working on a linguistic project comparing the verbs 'to be'  and  'to
exist' in as many world languages as possible other than English.  I would
be most
grateful to any person who could kindly answer a few simple questions as set
out below in any language you choose.

Name of Language:...example:
[Swedish..........................................

Please translate the following into your language:
Existence.................
Life..........................
Being [noun]............

I was.........................
he was......................
they were..................

I am..........................
you are.....................
He is.........................

they are.....................
I will be......................
he will be...................
they will be................

there  was..................
there will be...............
it existed

Finally ten short sentences. [please put the 'existence' word in brackets]
example; "The girl [is] a student."

The girl is a
student.....................................................................
....................
The boy is being
kind........................................................................
................
The building has existed for ten
years...............................................................
The girl is running
quickly.....................................................................
.............
The boy is
handsome....................................................................
....................
The man is a
doctor......................................................................
.....................
I believe in the existence of
atoms...................................................................
Life exists on
earth.......................................................................
......................
I like being a
student.....................................................................
.....................
I enjoy
life........................................................................
..................................
I feel love for him/her with my whole  Being
......................................................

Thank you very much indeed for your kind co-operation and sparing a few
minutes of your valuable time.

Jud Carnegie.
Manga Hälsningar och tack sa mycket!

Is there anyone on the list in the Norwalk, CT area?  I'll be in
Wilton, CT 16-22 Dec on business and would like to meet anyone living
nearby.  I have a dinner appointment Sunday afternoon with relatives
in NY state, other than that my evenings are open.
Thanks,
Landolf

Please excuse the Off Topic nature of this post (although it is related to
our discussion).

I am currently writing a paper on fasting practices in the Orthodox Church
for my Anthropology of Food course and I would like to include some
modern-day ethnographic information.  If there are any Orthodox Christians
who would be willing to fill out a short survey, please go to my Fasting
Survey at <http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~jdmiller2/survey.html> and complete the
form.  Your response will be kept anonymous and I will not share any
contact information with any outside parties.

Thank you for helping me out!
Jennifer D. Miller aka Yana

A while ago I stated that vodka wasn't used in Russia as a drink until post
16th cnetury, and that it was invented outside of Russia (Danes or Swedes).
A recent conversation has me doubting this highly, and I do not have
reliable sources in either direction.  Anyone have any clue?  I am looking
for specifics.
Encyclopedia Britannica says it was invented in Russia in 14th century, but
I've found errors in it before (scary isn't it?)

-Dmitriy Shelomianin
"The Russian exception"

(I was born there and I can't stand the stuff...)
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> A while ago I stated that vodka wasn't used in Russia as a drink until
post
> 16th cnetury, and that it was invented outside of Russia (Danes or
Swedes).
> A recent conversation has me doubting this highly, and I do not have
> reliable sources in either direction.  Anyone have any clue?  I am looking
> for specifics.
> Encyclopedia Britannica says it was invented in Russia in 14th century,
but
> I've found errors in it before (scary isn't it?)
>
> -Dmitriy Shelomianin
> "The Russian exception"
>
> (I was born there and I can't stand the stuff...)
>

Dmitriy--Don't feel  bad, I was born in the U.S. South and can't stand
bourbon!! :-) Seriously, I'm interested in the origins of vodka as well. I
don't know anything about this drink, except that... I can't stand it,
either! Yuck! But I'd like to know its history.

Isabelle de Foix
patricia.hefner@...
Shire of Brantestone
Kingdom of Meridies

This might have been mentioned before but..

http://www.he.net/~archaeol/0011/abstracts/russia.html

Kinda interesting. You have to buy the magazine for the whole thing though.

Also, while you are there:
http://www.he.net/~archaeol/online/news/viking.html

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