>According to the Church Dog=
> ma the promise was fulfilled. However, the Church may recognize the relatio=
> nship of modern Jews as descendants of the tribes of Israel and pious peopl=
> e who try to keep traditions of their ancestors, but never as the same Old =
> Church of Israel described in the books known as the Old Testament. In othe=
> r words, if Rome had ever stated what you seem to be trying to get at, it w=
> ould mean that the promise had never been fulfilled and thus Catholics woul=
> d be better off simply converting to whichever branch of Judaism they choos=
> e.

Ask your local Roman Catholic theologian, or look it up in the Catholic
encyclopedia (the printed one: the online one is circa 1910!), but
apparently, Catholic theology now holds that the New Testament does not
wipe out the Old and that Judaism is now a perfectly good religion _for
Jews only_. Conversion to Judaism would be bad, since the Old Testament is
talking about primarily Jews by birth. The New Covenant is for non-Jews,
apparently; the Old Covenant, with the Jews, still holds. *Shrug* I'm not
a theologian. But I did look it up, once upon a time, and I was a Roman
Catholic.

-- Jadwiga

Jadwiga wrote...

>By the time I became a Catholic in 1984, Jews were
>no longer considered heretics but still God's Chosen
>People,

Revelation 7:3-8: the "servants of God" who are "sealed upon their
foreheads" are 12000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel... (and are
distinct from the "great multitude... from every nation, from all tribes and
peoples and tongues")

>since 'God does not go back on his promises.'

Paul's Letter to the Romans - chapters 10 & 11 are particularly relevant in
this context. The latter starts "I ask, then has God rejected his people? By
no means!" (11:1) and also contains "... but as regards election they are
beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God
are irrevocable." (11:28-29). Some complex thinking in Romans that I shan't
even attempt to repeat here [pause as everyone sighs with relief...]

>I suspect the idea was first broached by John 23 but
>rammed through into doctrine by John Paul II.

I think that's right - hence JP2's managing to go to Israel recently without
too much fuss... I *think* (and I am certainly no expert) that this was an
effort to shift some Medieval thinking out of the way and get back to the
New Testament. The sort of thing, in fact, that has led some Catholic
extremists to regard the current Pope as a heretic!!!

Cheers!

Alastair

>From: "Elizabeth B. Naime" <elspeth@...>
>Are we sure those are welded? Elspeth the ill-named
>Elizabeth Naime <elspeth@...>

Kirpichnikov mentions welded specifically several    times in the article I
got the info from (A.N. Kirpichnikov, "Drevnerusskoe Oruzhie" vol. 3,
Arheologia SSSR, Nauka, Leningrad 1971).

He does not make any reference to punched or cast rings.  By the way, are
you sure the German ones were cast?  Casting would make for a very weak
ring.. are you sure they were not _punched_?

-Dmitriy Shelomianin

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Can anyone tell me if I would be breaking "rules"  by wearing a red
fabric belt? I understand that a red belt is the symbol of a squire, at
least in the West Kingdom, but I don't know the particulars or if
non-leather belts are restricted.

At 08:56 AM 10/4/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Can anyone tell me if I would be breaking "rules"  by wearing a red
>fabric belt? I understand that a red belt is the symbol of a squire,
at
>least in the West Kingdom, but I don't know the particulars or if
>non-leather belts are restricted.

Some people may attempt to tell you that red belts are restricted to
squires, but the only SCA-wide belt restriction is the white belt of
a knight.

Your kingdom may have other sumptuary laws that apply, however.  What
kingdom are you in?

In Atlantia, which has no sumptuary laws, you might get asked who you
are squired to, but nobody here has the right to tell you that you
can't wear it.

Alanna
***********
Saying of the day:
How to tell if a politician is lying: his lips are moving.

What kinds of buttons (design, material) are period for a late 12th-early
13th centry Rus?  If you don't know, I'll take close neighbors and time
periods..

Anywhere I can buy replicas? :)

Dmitriy
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> >Can anyone tell me if I would be breaking "rules"  by wearing a red
> >fabric belt? I understand that a red belt is the symbol of a squire,
>at
> >least in the West Kingdom, but I don't know the particulars or if
> >non-leather belts are restricted.

It's a tradition, not a law.  You'll still probably get some flak for it.
I, for one, wouldn't be offended -- and I am a squire.
Try it, se the kind of reaction you get.  Maybe ask a few knights and
squires around your area.

Just be glad you live in the West -- in some kingdoms, you would get in
trouble for wearing green and yellow belts, too ;).

-Dmitriy
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>
> Can anyone tell me if I would be breaking "rules"  by wearing a red
> fabric belt? I understand that a red belt is the symbol of a squire, at
> least in the West Kingdom, but I don't know the particulars or if
> non-leather belts are restricted.
>


Here in the West we don't have sumptuary laws; so, while the wearing
of red belts by squires is accepted, there are no laws prohibiting
others from wearing a red belt.


Eoin

Crosston/Mists/West

Anyone know what kinds of styles the Russians were using for pouches?

Vasilisa
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> squires, but the only SCA-wide belt restriction is the white belt of
> a knight.

The East also has no sumptuary Laws, but wearing a red belt if you are not
a squire is a bit like wearing a Crips jacket in a Bloods neighborhood.

-- Jadwiga, who only wears her lovely red and yellow sash OUTside the
East.

In a message dated 10/4/2000 10:50:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
dvryaboy@... writes:

<< What kinds of buttons (design, material) are period for a late 12th-early
  13th centry Rus?  If you don't know, I'll take close neighbors and time
  periods..>>

I belive that metal shank buttons would be period.  They'd have to be round
or egg-shaped, not flat.  Filigree was done at the time, as well as enameling
and engraving.  No buttonholes, of course -- loop closures.

<< Anywhere I can buy replicas? :)  >>

I use metal or metal-looking plastic buttons that somewhat resemble the
style, but are not close enough for me taste...except for those metal balls I
recently found at a gem show.  Good luck finding replicas, I'd like to know
where you do, if you do!

Liudmila

Red belts are not protected. They are traditionally worn by squires, but
anyone can wear a red belt, any squire can wear any other (non-white) belt
he wants, and any color belt can be made of anything. Anyone who tells you
diffferent is being officious.

--Alisandre

ssaucer@... wrote:

> Can anyone tell me if I would be breaking "rules"  by wearing a red
> fabric belt? I understand that a red belt is the symbol of a squire, at
> least in the West Kingdom, but I don't know the particulars or if
> non-leather belts are restricted.

In a message dated 10/4/2000 8:56:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ssaucer@... writes:

<< Can anyone tell me if I would be breaking "rules"  by wearing a red
  fabric belt? I understand that a red belt is the symbol of a squire, at
  least in the West Kingdom, but I don't know the particulars or if
  non-leather belts are restricted. >>

Unless there are specific rules in your kingdom, go right ahead amd wear your
red belt.  Only white belts (and I am not sure if only leather ones) are
restricted to knights.  In Caid, I sometimes wear a red and gold belt without
any concern, and would have no problem telling people off if they tried to
stop me. As far as I know, red belts for squires and green for apprentices
are a tradition, not a law around here.  A good thing, too, because most my
outfits are unbelted and I'd not like to have to wear a green apprentice belt
with everything.

Liudmila

In a message dated 10/4/2000 12:59:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
vasalisa@... writes:

<< Anyone know what kinds of styles the Russians were using for pouches?

  Vasilisa >>

This is a quote from my recent notes for a Collegium class, based on
Rabinovich in Drevniaia Odezhda Narodov Vostochnoi Evropy (Ancient Dress of
Eastern Europeans):

"Since neither men nor women had pockets (men's clothing acquired detachable
pokets, "kisheni," and sewn-on pockets, "zepi," by the end of the period),
belts served to hold various objects, just like in the West. A belt box of
precious metal, "kaptorga," or a leather pouch, "kalita" or "moshna," could
serve as a purse. Kalita was not unlike purses worn on a belt or over the
shoulder in Western Europe, except that it was highly ornamented. "

This refers to the late period, the XIIIth through the XVIIth centuries.  I
found no reference to fabric pouches.  However, I still use hand-held fabric
pouches with Russian-style embroidery, since I don't wear belts as a rule.

Liudmila

Bystryj - fast swift
Art.
-----Original Message-----
From: AKC7 [mailto:AKC7@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 2:08 PM
To: sig@egroups.com
Subject: [sig] 2 Medieval Russian Questions


     Hello everyone,

P.S.-  I almost forgot does anyone know the Russian word for swift, or
quick?  or something that has to do with speed.  I'm trying to work on
my Persona name.

   Thanks again,
Andrew

Greetings one and all,

I just wanted to pop out of lurk mode long enough to briefly
introduce myself and say hello before I go back into hiding *s*

I am brand new to the SCA and have chosen a 13th century Russian
persona and was thrilled to find sites off of this group regarding
persona development, choosing names, appropriate costuming for the
times etc.....everything else so far is WAY over my head but I am
fascinated in the discussions here and listen avidly in the
background.....

Anyway, just wanted to say hi and am grateful for the list's
existence....*waves and heads back to lurk mode*

Yours In Service,

Ekaterina Devonova
aka Catherine Lee

> Anyone know what kinds of styles the Russians were using for pouches?
>
> Vasilisa

     Vasilisa,
         I do recall a picture of a 13 Century "leather purse recovered
from medieval novgorod."  Its in the "Armies of Medieval Russia
750-1250" book by David Nicolle.  I had thought about scanning the pic
for you, but I can't since its not a flat bed scanner, and well it would
eat the book.
     Its hard to get a really good idea of how to explain how it looks.
Its a simple folded pouch however for a cover and design there is
another piece of leather which is stitched (sp?) {attached} to the
front.
This design acts as a top cover and as for the design itself the best
way
to describe it is a fancy spear head with a huge base.
     If you really want to see the picture I can make a copy of the page
sometime soon and then scan it.

hope that helps,
     Andrew

>I use metal or metal-looking plastic buttons that somewhat resemble the
>style, but are not close enough for me taste...except for those metal balls
>I
>recently found at a gem show.  Good luck finding replicas, I'd like to know
>where you do, if you do!
>
>Liudmila


Well, I haven't found anyone doing Russian buttons (big surprise there!),
but here some others that are passable (one of them loks remarkably close to
a picture of a button-casting form form 13th cnetury I have..)

http://www.medievalwares.com/medieval_buttons.htm
http://www.historicenterprises.com/sl/buttons.html

Also,
http://www.londonaccessories.com/
http://www.regia.org/bodgit-bendit.htm
Have everything your heart desires in terms of fittings -- except for
buckles

http://finkas.home.netcom.com/Forgerie/Forgerie1.html is a site to watch --
I might be able to convince Henri to do some true Russian repros.
(Barter proposal -- research for buckles! :)

-Dmitriy Shelomianin
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A picture is worth a thousand words...
http://alakazoo.bowles-hall.com/~eressea/scratch/leather_items.jpg

-Dmitriy

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I am also doing 13th century -- e-mail me if you run into something really
cool or have questions!

-Dmitriy

>From: "Brechin " <brechin@...>
>I am brand new to the SCA and have chosen a 13th century Russian
>persona and was thrilled to find sites off of this group regarding
>persona development, choosing names, appropriate costuming for the
>times etc.....
>Ekaterina Devonova
>aka Catherine Lee

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located where, newbie?

Soraya,
Angels, downtown Caid

> I am also doing 13th century -- e-mail me if you run into something
really
> cool or have questions!
>
> -Dmitriy


Me 3,
         13th century is the way to go.  ;-)

Thanks for the mail dimensions Dmitriy,    that helped out a lot.

Kingdom of Atlantia, Barony of Sacred Stone, Hawkwood canton

Sarayya@... wrote:

> located where, newbie?
>
> Soraya,
> Angels, downtown Caid
>

--- Robert J Welenc <rjwelenc@...> wrote:
> At 08:56 AM 10/4/00 -0700, you wrote:
> >Can anyone tell me if I would be breaking "rules"  by wearing a
> red
> >fabric belt? I understand that a red belt is the symbol of a
> squire,
> at
> >least in the West Kingdom, but I don't know the particulars or if
> >non-leather belts are restricted.
>
> Some people may attempt to tell you that red belts are restricted
> to
> squires, but the only SCA-wide belt restriction is the white belt
> of
> a knight.
>
> Your kingdom may have other sumptuary laws that apply, however.
> What
> kingdom are you in?
{snip}

I've written an article on Sumptuary Laws in the SCA, which can be
found at http://sca-garb.freeservers.com/articles/sumptuary.htm  To
the best of my knowledge, only Atenveldt has restricted colored
belts, and they do not specify material.

For that matter, the Ordinary and Armorial does not specify material
in the registration of the knight's belt, either.

Tasha

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East of the Mississppi, the kingdoms also allow squires to wear
silver chains and silver spurs as well, unless the knight feels they
have to earn them, which is less common but also prevalent. Not
wearing red belts is a courteous nod here, just as yellow and green
belts are also not worn, except by apprentices, squires and proteges.
What people do here is mix colored placards on the belts to make it
obviously not one of these three groups.
	 A visiting knight from Caid once snarled at me, "Squires don't wear
chains and spurs". Not wanting to insult him, I said "Well, then
welcome to my backyard, east of the Mississippi we do. Have fun." He
was sneering but his squires weren't....I spotted him buying them
chains in the market the next day.
'dak

To:            sig@egroups.com
From:          Amanda Lewanski <editor@...>
Date:          Wed, 04 Oct 2000 15:51:10 -0500
Reply-to:      sig@egroups.com
Subject:       Re: [sig] Red Belts

Red belts are not protected. They are traditionally worn by squires, but
anyone can wear a red belt, any squire can wear any other (non-white) belt
he wants, and any color belt can be made of anything. Anyone who tells you
diffferent is being officious.

--Alisandre

ssaucer@... wrote:

> Can anyone tell me if I would be breaking "rules"  by wearing a red
> fabric belt? I understand that a red belt is the symbol of a squire, at
> least in the West Kingdom, but I don't know the particulars or if
> non-leather belts are restricted.

--- Jenne Heise <jenne@...> wrote:
> > squires, but the only SCA-wide belt restriction is the white belt
> of
> > a knight.
>
> The East also has no sumptuary Laws, but wearing a red belt if you
> are not
> a squire is a bit like wearing a Crips jacket in a Bloods
> neighborhood.
>
> -- Jadwiga, who only wears her lovely red and yellow sash OUTside
> the
> East.

You're kidding... people give you a hard time for that?  I wear a red
sash with gold print on it all the time with my Mongol garb... no
one's ever said boo about it.

Tasha

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Liudmila cites...

>A belt box of precious metal, "kaptorga," or a leather
>pouch, "kalita" or "moshna," could serve as a purse.

Oh good, someone else HAS heard of them...
By the time it gets as far as Bohemia, the kaptorga is not necessarily a
belt fitting - it can be pendant.

Can someone please tell me the origin of the word "kaptorga"? Language, root
etc.? It's the very devil to translate unless one uses 'pyxis'...

Alastair

---------------------------
Alastair Millar, BSc(Hons)
Consultancy and translation for the heritage industry
e-mail: alastair@...,    http://www.skriptorium.cz
P.O.Box 685, CZ 111 21 Prague 1, Czech Republic

--- ssaucer@...
> wrote:

>Can anyone tell me if I would be breaking rules by wearing a red
>fabric belt? I understand that a red belt is the symbol of a squire, at
>least in the West Kingdom, but I don't know the particulars or if
>non-leather belts are restricted.

A lot of folks have commented on this already, but here's one more squire &
herald to tell you that red belts are not restricted in most kingdoms (I don't
think there are ANY that restrict, but haven't checked recently).

Material is not an issue.  I have leather belts (which I don't wear), a red sash
(in storage), and red cords (which I usually wear).

Expect to get asked to whom you are squired.  Most squires that I know or have
seen lately wear their knight's badge on the belt near the tip.  If you wear a
badge or device like that on a red belt, you'll probably get tired of the
questions.

Janos

==
The Honorable Lord
SOVÁNY BARCSI JÁNOS
c/o LTC J. C. Smith
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-283

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--- "Brechin " <brechin@...>
> wrote:

>Anyway, just wanted to say hi and am grateful for the list's <BR>
>existence....*waves and heads back to lurk mode*<BR>

No good.  We know you're here now.

Janos

==
The Honorable Lord
SOVÁNY BARCSI JÁNOS
c/o LTC J. C. Smith
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-283

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--- MHoll@...
> wrote:

>But I'm envious of the woods behind the school. Of
>course, we had the legend of the tunnel under the street connecting the
>school to the little city park...

You city kids, I swear.

Across the street from me was miles of woods.  Behind me was the river
(Potomac).  And all this talk of shoes makes my feet hurt.  We NEVER wore shoes
except for school, church, and other formal occasions...oh, and in the barn. 
They paved the road to our house just before we moved there, and when they did,
they quit delivering mail by boat.  We didn't get "city water" for years
afterwards.  But we didn't live in the country...there were 47 of us in our
town.

Janos

==
The Honorable Lord
SOVÁNY BARCSI JÁNOS
c/o LTC J. C. Smith
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-283

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