Slavic Interest Group Mailing List (SIG-L) Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Last update:  January 1, 2000

Main SIG page
http://www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschp/slavic.html

Main SIG-L pages:
http://www.onelist.com/community/sig
http://www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschp/sig_list.html

SIG Archives
http://www.onelist.com/archive/sig
http://sig-arc.hypermart.net/ (older)

SIG organizer
Paul Wickenden of Thanet  (goldschp@...)

SIG-L moderators
Default  (sig-owner@onelist.com)
Yana  (jdmiller2@...)
Liudmila  (LiudmilaV@...)

To post a message:  sig@onelist.com
To subscribe:  sig-subscribe@onelist.com
To unsubscribe:  sig-unsubscribe@onelist.com


***********************************************
List Basics

** What is sig@onelist.com?
The SIG List (hereafter called "SIG-L") provides a discussion forum on the
history and culture of the Medieval Slavic, Eastern European, and Central
European world.  We are aimed specifically towards members of the Society for
Creative Anachronism (SCA) with Slavic, Eastern European and Central European
personas, but we provide information and resources to anyone.

** Are SIG-L and the Slavic Interest Group the same organization?
No.  SIG-L is an offshoot of the larger and older Slavic Interest Group
(hereafter called SIG").  SIG-L was established as an additional way for members
of SIG to talk to each other more quickly than via the quarterly newsletter. 
Not all the members of SIG are on SIG-L and vice versa.  This means that if you
are a member of SIG-L, it does not automatically make you a member of SIG.  To
become a member of SIG, write to the SIG organizer at goldschp@... or go
to http://www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschp/slavic.html and follow the links there. 
Membership is free.  We just ask that you be willing to share what you know with
the rest of us.

** What cultures does SIG-L cover?
SIG-L (and SIG) covers all the former members of the Soviet Union (just for
convenience, no political agenda is implied).  We encompass the medieval
cultures of Russia, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, Transylvania, Latvia, Lithuania,
Karelia, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Dalmatia,
Albania, Poland, Estonia, Belarus, Moldova, Armenia, Georgia, Turkmenistan,
Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, Kirgizistan, Kazakhstan, Turkestan, Khazaria, and any
related ethnic groups.  We aren't _just_ a Slavic organization, it is just
simpler to call ourselves "SIG" instead of trying to incorporate the initials of
all the countries and groups we cover.

** You mentioned a newsletter...
SIG publishes "Slovo", our quarterly newsletter.  "Slovo" means "word" in many
Slavic languages, so we thought it would be a good name for the newsletter.  It
comes out in the middle of the months of January, April, July and October.  The
submission deadlines are the first of those same months.  Slovo is available
free on the web off the main SIG page.  Back issues are also archived there.  If
you need a paper copy, write to the editor at goldschp@....  Paper
copies are also free, but donations are cheerfully accepted to cover copying and
mailing costs.

** Does SIG-L have archives?
Yes, in two places.  The older archives can be viewed at
http://sig-arc.hypermart.net/  The more recent archives are at
http://www.onelist.com/archive/sig

** What can I talk about here on SIG-L?
Anything relating to pre-1650 CE (approximately) Slavic or Eastern or Central
European history and culture or anything Slavic, Eastern European or Central
European as it pertains to the SCA is welcome here.  Sometimes we talk about
modern subjects, which is okay as long as we generally stay on topic.  Feel free
to start a new topic, ask questions or debate a subject.  We have beginners on
the List as well as advanced and professional researchers, but everyone is
friendly and we all welcome questions and subjects at any level.

** What is not permitted on the list?
a)  Personal Flamewars.  Debating a subject is fine, heated argument is not.
b)  Ethnic and Regional insults.  This is absolutely not acceptable here.
c)  SPAM.  This includes chain letters, appeals from charities, virus warnings,
etc.
d)  UCE (Unsolicited Commercial Email).  Commercial posts are allowed if they
are pre-approved by one of the moderators.

**  What are the basic commands for this list?
SIG-L is based off ONEList, a web-based provider.  Through ONEList
(http://www.onelist.com) you can subscribe, unsubscribe and otherwise manage
your account.  Simply enter your email address and the password you were given
when you subscribed and follow the directions there.  If you are not yet a
member, follow the directions given there to sign up for an account.

**  What if I don't have web-access or don't want to use the ONEList website?
Not a problem, you can still manage your subscription easily (and you don't even
need a password).  Send a blank email (no message or subject) to the appropriate
address below:

sig-subscribe@onelist.com - subscribe to SIG
sig-unsubscribe@onelist.com - unsubscribe from SIG
sig-digest@onelist.com - switch your subscription to digest mode
sig-normal@onelist.com - switch your subscription to normal mode

Be sure to reply to any message that ONEList sends you about your account (and
save your password if you were given one!).  If you don't reply, ONEList may
think you didn't want to really subscribe/unsubscribe/change your settings. 
This is a safety precaution done to prevent subscribers from being the victims
of pranksters.

**I'm on the digest.  How do I reply to separate messages?
To reply to a message found on the digest, 'cut' the contents of the message
that you wish to quote, 'paste' it in a message to sig@onelist.com, and add your
comments.  Make sure you do NOT reply directly to the From: field on the digest!
If this becomes a habit, then you will be put on a moderated status and
misdirected replies will be silently deleted.

**********************************************
List Courtesy

**I think that someone is being rude and insulting!  What can I do?
First, try reading the post again.  Sometimes it is hard to tell what a person
is really saying because of the difficulties of communicating using email.  It
also helps if you read all the posts on a subject before you respond.  Sometimes
the concern has already been addressed.

If you still have a problem with what is being said, you have two options:
a) Talk to a moderator about your concerns.  It is their job is to handle stuff
like this.
b) Reply to the sender of the message without flaming.

**What is "flaming"?
Flaming is a post, usually containing an argument or reply, that serves only to
exacerbate the situation.  If you have written something in the heat of anger,
irritation or excitement please re-read the post and take out the elements of
possible insult while getting the logic of your point across.  Flaming is a big
"no-no" on this List and offenders will be put on probation and moderated
(messages will be reviewed by a moderator before being sent to the List). 
Overstepping the bounds of civility, on mistake or on purpose, will not be
tolerated.

**I think we are drifting off topic/I think this list is too advanced for me.
If you are concerned that the topic has drifted, feel free to restate the
original topic and try to get everyone back on track. Just do it in a polite
manner.  As for concerns about the List being too advanced, please ask questions
about what you don't understand.  You will find people are very willing to
explain and clarify.  While it is true that sometimes the discussions can get a
bit esoteric, please remember that this List is aimed towards all levels of
research interest.

**Anything else I should know?
a) Please clip your posts!  This means only quoting what is relevant to your own
post and not including the entire letter unless absolutely necessary (which is
extremely rare).  It gets very annoying very quickly to have to page down
through an entire letter (or more!) that someone has stuck on the end of their
reply.

b) Keep subject lines relevant.  If a message thread has evolved to something
that has nothing to do with the original subject, please feel free to change the
subject line to something more appropriate.

***********************************************
Research

** Can you recommend some books for different eras and peoples?
There is an extensive bibliography (with notes) on the web at the main SIG page 
You can also write to the list and ask for recommendations or reviews of
specific books, but it is a lot faster if you look at the SIG bibliography
first.

** Where can I find help developing my persona?
You are in luck!  There are several web pages that members of SIG-L have
created.  We call them Knowledge Pages.  They are aimed towards a specific
country and include information on dress, food, naming practices, persona
development, history, language and other themes.  Simply find the Knowledge Page
you wish and read, read, read!

**What are "the Knowledge Pages?"
They are a series of country-based web pages that are organized using similar
subject categories to aid research. Here you can find information on a wide
variety of subjects such as food, dress, persona development, history and much
more.  Here are the Knowledge Pages we have so far:

BALTIC STATES (includes Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1336/baltic/

CROATIA
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1336/croatia/

GEORGIA/CAUCAUSES
http://www.angelfire.com/or/caucasus

HUNGARY
http://tulgey.browser.net/~hungary/

POLAND
http://tulgey.browser.net/~jenne/poland/index.html

ROMANIA
http://members.xoom.com/Cosmotopia/romania/indexr.html

RUSSIA
http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~jdmiller2/knowledge/main.html
(For now, this includes Ukraine, as well as ethnic groups residing in the modern
day Russian Federation)

SLOVAKIA/CZECH REPUBLIC
http://www.crosswinds.net/czech-rep/~anezka/knowledge.html

Knowledge Pages in the works:
--Transylvania

** Where can I find someone near me?
Feel free to ask on SIG-L!  This is also where becoming a member of SIG comes in
handy.  SIG maintains a member list that lists name, location, interests and
contact information.  You can simply scan the list and contact whoever you
choose.  It is linked off the main SIG page under "members".

**  Are there recipes for my culture? Where would I find them?
**  Where can I get ideas for clothing from my culture?
**  What about music and art?

To all the above: First, check out the appropriate Knowledge Page for the
culture in question.  You might also want to check out the Florilegium, a major
collection of messages arranged by subject headings.  The Florilegium is at
http://lg_photo.home.texas.net/florilegium/index.html
If you can't find answers there, try writing to the List.

We hope this FAQ has been helpful.  If you have any further questions or
suggestions, please let us know.

Happy Researching!

Jade wrote:
>....I would need another discription of what it
>looked like to forward to him.

Here it is at last - the original description which I posted up to the list
in March -

***************
An acquaintance in a UK university was recently given an unusal item by a
member of the public, who had found it while clearing out their
grandfather's attic. It is an adult human femur - here is his description:

[quote]
The first striking thing about it are 5 bands of carefully and
very skilfully plaited copper wire which encircle the shaft at
roughly equal intervals across its length. A great deal of effort
has been taken to apply these bands which have an almost
woven quality to them. Three of the bands are thicker (wider)
than the others. On closer examination the bone itself can be
seen to highly polished both along the shaft and at both ends -
apparently caused by repeated rubbing, but more likely
repeated handling.
[unquote]

Obviously, the origin of the object is unknown, although there is the
faintest of hints that it is West African. It may be ancient (it may not
be), but must have been collected/curated pre-1940.

********************

Thanks again!

Alastair

Wups! One thousand apologies - that last msg went to the wrong list!
Please ignore and throw away!

Alastair
Being more careless than usual today...

Isabelle wrote:

I used a text that was printed in 1962 (I think; it's gathered its fair
share of dust). Then I came across a better book ("Anne's Bohemia"), which
is much better, after we'd put the blasted thing on the page! Political
history is my weakest branch of history; I'm much more of a social
historian. I'm afraid I made quite a mess of the early Slav settlements in
the area in particular. That needs to be cleaned up. I'd do a better job on
textile arts. :-)


A couple of questions for you:  "Anne's Bohemia"...  could you post the
reference for that?  I'd love to try finding it.  Thanks!

And... You said that you'd do a better job on textile arts... do you mean
textiles as related to Bohemia?  If so, would you be willing to share some
of what you know?  Whatever forum is easiest for you, of course (here...
another article... just answering some questions...)  I'd really appreciate
it, as I know *nothing* of the clothing or fabrics of the area (yet!  I
haven't had time to do any research).

thanks!

Alena

> >  A couple questions mashed into one message
> >  1. Can anybody tell me if there are surviving..well, um anything,
> >about religion pre-Catholic and Christianity in Russia? Anywhere is
> good,
> >the area around Moscow and/or Kiev is better.>>
>     Well from my limited research and understanding the only thing I
> thought might be noteworthy which you did not mention was the fact many
> Russians view Alexander Nevski as a savior because of his defeat of
> the Teutonic Knights, whom Pope Gregory IX had commissioned to
> christianize the Baltic.
>

Considering that the Teutonic Knights' strategy for 'Christianizing'
places consisted of wiping out the pagan populace and replacing it with
German settlers, that doesn't seem to apply. Also, in that invasion, the
Teutonic Knights were invading a nominally Christian area...

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise       jenne@...
disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
	 "Oh it's all too much, too grim, too lovely, too -- how should
	 I put this? It's general chaos." -- Edward Gorey

At 12:35 PM 5/1/00 +0200, you wrote:
>Wups! One thousand apologies - that last msg went to the wrong list!

>Please ignore and throw away!
>
>Alastair
>Being more careless than usual today...
>
<Alanna's ears perk up>

What list discusses ritual objects made of human body parts?  Sounds
like something I may be interested in lurking on...

Alanna
***********
Saying of the day:
Vision is not seeing things as they are, but as they will be.

> Thank you very much for the links.  I've been trying to develop an early
period
> (11th or 12th cent.) persona.  I'm looking at doing a Russian-Viking sort of
> thing from Novgorod and this info will help immensely.  Can anyone recommend
any
> books or links on early Novgorod?

May I recommend _Wooden Artefacts from Medieval Novgorod_?

		   Kolchin, Boris Aleksandrovich.
                   Wooden artefacts from medieval Novgorod
                   Oxford, England :  B.A.R., 1989. ISBN:  0860546357

BTW, someone remind me to take some kind of picture of my first attempt to
imitate the painted wooden spoons from this book, and put it on the web.
I have to do some more research; one of the judges in the A&S contest I
entered it in claimed in her judges' notes that it should be lacquer
rather than paint, but the book does not say, and unfortunately, the judge
did not give me a reference to follow up on the use of lacquer in early
Russia.

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise       jenne@...
disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
	 "Oh it's all too much, too grim, too lovely, too -- how should
	 I put this? It's general chaos." -- Edward Gorey

A couple of questions for you:  "Anne's Bohemia"...  could you post the
reference for that?  I'd love to try finding it.  Thanks!

And... You said that you'd do a better job on textile arts... do you mean
textiles as related to Bohemia?  If so, would you be willing to share some
of what you know?  Whatever forum is easiest for you, of course (here...
another article... just answering some questions...)  I'd really appreciate
it, as I know *nothing* of the clothing or fabrics of the area (yet!  I
haven't had time to do any research).

thanks!

Alena


I got "Anne's Bohemia" from either Amazon.com or Barnes & Noble's site. It's
not hard to get. I actually can't find my copy of it right now, but it's
around here somewhere. I'll look for it and relay more info if you want it.
As for textile arts, I really don't know that much. I need to do some
research myself. I spin wool using a drop spindle. Spinning wheels didn't
come in until about 1500 or so--I've heard conflicting dates. Some people
will tell you 1400 or thereabouts. I just know more about this stuff than I
do about some of the early tribes who settled in this area!! :-)

Isabelle
patricia.hefner@...

>
> I got "Anne's Bohemia" from either Amazon.com or Barnes & Noble's site. It's
> not hard to get.

Anne's Bohemia: Czech Literature and Society, 1310-1420
                    Alfred Thomas
Format: Paperback, 194pp.
                                 ISBN: 0816630542
                                 Publisher: University of
                                 Minnesota Press
                                 Pub. Date: April  1998

Barnes & Noble is the only one that has the publisher's blurb, but
borders.com has it at a $4 discount (15.96 rather than 19.96).


Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise       jenne@...
disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
	 "Oh it's all too much, too grim, too lovely, too -- how should
	 I put this? It's general chaos." -- Edward Gorey

>As for textile arts, I really don't know that much. I need to do
some
>research myself. I spin wool using a drop spindle. Spinning wheels
didn't
>come in until about 1500 or so--I've heard conflicting dates. Some
people
>will tell you 1400 or thereabouts. I just know more about this stuff
than I
>do about some of the early tribes who settled in this area!! :-)
>
Isn't there an SCA textile arts list?  If so, could someone forward
this message to them?

I'm trying to find out if there is some reason for spinning wheels
being developed so late in period.  Unless my information about how
they work is all wrong, it seems to me that spinning wheels could
have been invented several hundred years before they were; they don't
use any process or invention that wasn't known to the Romans, do
they?

Alanna
***********
Saying of the day:
Vision is not seeing things as they are, but as they will be.

Greetings from Ksenia,

I'm new to the list and am just testing the address. :)

Ksenia Pavlovna

> I'm trying to find out if there is some reason for spinning wheels
> being developed so late in period.  Unless my information about how
> they work is all wrong, it seems to me that spinning wheels could
> have been invented several hundred years before they were; they don't
> use any process or invention that wasn't known to the Romans, do
> they?
>
> Alanna
> ***********

I admit to not knowing that much about spinning wheels, but I think they
were satisfied with spindles until some enterprising soul decided to turn a
spindle on its side and make the first spinning wheel and that just happened
to be ca. 1400. Spectacles didn't come in until the fourteenth century, in
Italy, even though they'd always had glass. It's the same idea with spinning
wheels. The first wheels were rather unweildly and difficult to use for
about 150 years. They made some adjustments and finally came up with the
wheels we use today. There is a spinning list out there somewhere but I
think I got disconnected to it. Maybe the server is screwed up.

Isabelle
patricia.hefner@...

> > I'm trying to find out if there is some reason for spinning wheels
> > being developed so late in period.  Unless my information about how
> > they work is all wrong, it seems to me that spinning wheels could
> > have been invented several hundred years before they were; they don't
> > use any process or invention that wasn't known to the Romans, do
> > they?

Romans had the technology for paper clips too, but just never thought of
using them.

--Walraven

> Cossack fashions and reference materials:
>  Actually, the Cossack coat is primarily an
> imitation of Polish fashions,
Result: a mixture of Polish, Tarter and and Turkish
> fashions. Sort of dribs and drabs of whatever they
thought was particularly cool looking and flamboyant.

Kind of like the German Landesknecht's?

Ideally he would like to wear this as hardsuit armour,
by having pockets in the lining to insert the
plastic/metal plates.....

Anyone with any suggestions?
Turrel

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

Kind of like the German Landesknecht's?

Turrel,
	 Not to sound like an authenticity goober, but Landsknecht is very
similar to other Western European fashions in that it has
slashed proto-doublets and hose (pluterhosen). The screwed up thing
is that Polish coats are long and flairing with inset sleeves and and
other "modern " tailoring techniques so Ukrainian has this, plus
poofy pants called charovoy (Tartar), slit sleeves reminesent of 15th
C itaian fashions and hats that are simply unique. I see no reason at
all why pockets for plates (especially plastic) cant be sewn into the
inner lining to create a "hardsuit". It would be very, very cool. I
do recommend the book I cited earlier simply because it is quite
illustrative, if post-period. I personally wear a Persian caftan over
my hardsuit but thats because I like doing things not done
before....besides, I like Persian. Please keep me informed about how
the Cossack coat comes out. Very, very cool idea! 'dak

>From: Jenne Heise <jenne@...>
>BTW, someone remind me to take some kind of picture of my first
>attempt to imitate the painted wooden spoons from this book, and
>put it on the web. I have to do some more research; one of the judges in
>the A&S contest I entered it in claimed in her judges' notes that it should
>be lacquer rather than paint, but the book does not say, and unfortunately,
>the judge did not give me a reference to follow up on the use of lacquer in
>early Russia.

Sure. You were going to put some pictures of that spoon on your website,
remember? :-)

I looked through the chapter in "Byt and Kul'tura" that deals with spoons;
no mention of lacquer.
There is mention of painted spoons, however -- two were found in Novgorod
and are dated 14th century. One has complicated ornaments on the dish, and
the handle is not painted; another has ornaments on the handle and a
griffon-type animal (not quite sure what it is.. looks like a griffin) in
the dish. The one with the griffin is missing about a quarter of the dish --
it split where the handle flares out into the spoon itself (sorry, i don't
know how to describe it better).
Most spoons listed in the book are decorated with carvings (if at all).
None of the other books I have available at themoment say anything on the
matter.

I am afraid the judge was thinking of the traditional tourist spoons sold
all over Russia and in New York right next to the matreshka dolls.. Ask for
documentation, though, she might know something I don't (heck, I don't know
anything, I just have good books handy :). In either case, your use of paint
is completely justified.

Udachi,
Dmitriy Shelomianin


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

There is a chreactive Anachronist book on period spinning & it discuses
such things. I could dig up the number or authors or such if you want.
I'v e spun & bit, I love the idea of spining all the time, but I learned I
was doing it  "wrong" in a way that made it harder so I've stopped till I
can spend some time doing it with someone else.
Enna

--- In sig@egroups.com, timbo@m... wrote:
>
> Kind of like the German Landesknecht's?
>
> Turrel,
>  Not to sound like an authenticity goober, but Landsknecht is
very
> similar to other Western European fashions in that it has
> slashed proto-doublets and hose (pluterhosen).

Sorry, actually what i meant is the tendency to wear anything that
looks flamboyant, not necissarly 'traditional'...

Thanks!
Turrel

Greetings!

While at this past weekend's coronation in Ealdormere, Lady Kseniia Aleksdrovna
and I were discussing the possibiliy of a Slavic Social at Murder Melee in June
for all those Slavs who will be at this event in Ealdormere! What does everyone
think? WOuld they like to? I can try and organise something if there is enough
interest. PLease reply to me personally at PicsesPoet17@... . Thanks!

Kseniia Nikolaevna

---------------------------------------------------
Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com

In a message dated 5/1/2000 1:39:24 AM Central Daylight Time,
dvryaboy@... writes:

> Umm, you should know that authenticity of that book is *highly*
>  questionable.  I wouldn't use it as reliable evidence/documentation.
>
>  Dmitriy Shelomianin


Hear, hear!
The "Book of Veles" resurfaces regularly here, and I usually post the
warning. In my opinion, "highly questionable" is a very polite and mild way
of putting it. If it had real scholarly value, it would have made a lot of
noise in the history, folklore, Slavic studies, religious studies, and other
such circles.

I wish there was more on Slavic (especially Russian) paganism, but there
isn't. For documentable persona-play, we just have to be Christian. No way
about it.

It's not that bad, really. The Orthodox-Slavic mindset is a really
interesting subject, as are the rules and rituals, the literature associated
with it, etc. A lot of it is quite different from today's Orthodoxy,
fascinatingly so.

I know ancient paganism is fascinating, too, but why get yourself a headache
when there is so much documentable, and relatively easy information to
obtain, about Christianity? It's OK to have a Christian persona. YOU don't
have to be, just your persona.

OK, OK, off my soapbox, and thank you for lending an ear.

Predslava.

Sorry this is late, I'm entering the last few weeks of Hell, I mean, school
and I'm a leeeetly bit busy.

The peplos idea made my brain hurt, especially picturing a sarafan over it
(whoever had that idea, please don't feel bad, it was really creative and
creativity is a good thing).  And I do not think that in Russia, anyway, a
peplos was ever used in the SCA period (perhaps really early pre-period,
but I'm not sure).  In my mind, especially for a female early persona or a
late persona wanting to be cooler and slightly more lower-staus/class (is
there a polite way to say that?), a long shirt (rubakha) would be primo.
My advice is to make one rubakha and try it out at a hot event.

Splurge on linen (which you can find very affordably on the web anyway), it
is only one garment and most of us will pay more for off-the-rack clothes
at a nice department store.  Besides, this shirt will be a basic piece of
Russian/Rus' garb for you and will get a lot of use.  Patterns can be found
from the clothing page of the Russian Knowledge Page.
<http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~jdmiller2/knowledge/main.html>

If you use a medium-weight linen (which is what you will normally find
anyway), you shouldn't need to worry about modesty, if you worry about
those things.  Linen is more period and will keep you cooler than cotton.
If the linen is thin, you can do what I have done and make a sleeveless
linen rubakha to go under it (or keep the sleeves on, I just removed mine
so I could wear the shirt under other clothing items) or a linen drawstring
slip/skirt.  Two layers of light linen is just fine in the heat, in fact,
it can insulate you slightly and keep you cooler.  Besides, I remember
seeing a reference somewhere (I'm sure someone will look it up for me)
about a properly modest Russian woman wearing two shirts.

Use a white or natural/grey linen if you can.  Decorate with red accents
(embroidery, stitched on ribbon, etc) around the neck, cuffs and hems.  We
don't have any good documentation for how they were decorated, but we can
fudge here (simple embroidery looks really effective).  We are just trying
for something closer to Russian than a Anglo-Norman T-tunic.  Add a belt of
some type (fabric, metal, or leather, without the long dangling tail) and
you are pretty much set!  Rubakhas can be made ankle-length and with wrist
length sleeves that can be rolled up when necessary  The shorter length is
still period and will be cooler to boot (rubakhas look good with bare
feet).  If you are a married or  mature woman, wear a head covering
(lightweight linen!).  If you are a young girl or unmarried young woman,
wear your hair down or wear the headcovering anyway to keep the sun off
your head and neck and your entire body much cooler.

How can you go wrong?  You end up with an outfit that is cool (temperature
and fashion), is much, much closer to period than a broadcloth poly-cotton
T-tunic, and you are really, really identifiable as a Rus'.

--Yana, who needs to go to bed after she picks up the living room

Predslava wrote:
>Hear, hear!
>The "Book of Veles" resurfaces regularly here, and I usually post the
>warning. In my opinion, "highly questionable" is a very polite and mild way
>of putting it. If it had real scholarly value, it would have made a lot of
>noise in the history, folklore, Slavic studies, religious studies, and
other
>such circles.


It is clear that this books is not documentable as a history, (although I
know at least *one* educated Russian who thinks it's true, be he's *another*
story)  it can be useful in other ways, I thik.

I understand that it was compiled somwhere around the 12th century (correct
me, please) as a pice of nationalists psudo-history.  What is may reflect,
is the mind-set of some of the thinkers of that time,  or at least some of
the wishful thinking at that time.
     So, from this bok we might not gather any early period history, but we
might gather some mid- and pate-period thoughts about history.


For persona play, I agree with Predslava on more than one count:
documentation, and the tendency for pre-Christian elements to remain amoung
the agricultural workers, rather than amongst the urbanites, who, at least
in later periods, worked in close accord with the Church.

I also agree that Old Church (and New Church) Orthodoxy is fascinating.
Worth examining for persona play.

Certainly, it can be fun to also play a devout person, who happens to have a
little folklore.  :-)

One of the difficulties some people run into when looking at Slavic paganism
is that, like Western Occultism, few of the practices today in Russia can be
identified as authentically indigenous.  Influences from the Far East are
strong in both magickal stystems/groups/regions, and documenting when these
influences appeared in the vilages and urban areas is even harder to trace
in East Europe than in West, and in the West it is still beeing hotly
debated amongst scholars and enthusiasts in this area.

I appreciate Predslava's soap-box on this topic.  I hope to learn, one of
these days, how Old Church practice was carried out in the daily lives of
the average say, boyarina. :-)


IS,
Ksenia Alexandrova

Salut!
I had recently found a copy of a period woodcut which displayed some
Hungarian combatants (no, I don't remember where off the top of my head).
I use this picture a lot, as it places the use of 36 inch maces (judging
from the proportions of the mace to the people holding them) in period,
which happens to be my war weapon.  They also have these really neat
shields, but that is neither here nor there.  The men are wearing padded
tops with button on sleeves and an attached skirt.  The only visible armor
are hardened elbows.  So, my lady is making this with a denim inner lining
to hold armour plates.  I'll let you know how it turns out.  It should
give more flexibility.

In service.
Cu drag,
Bogdan


_______________________________________________________________________________
Jeffrey Heilveil M.S. 	      Ld. Bogdan de la Brasov, C.W.
Department of Entomology A Bear's paw and base vert on field argent
University of Illinois
heilveil@...
office: (217) 244-5115
home: (217) 355-5702
ICQ: 34699710

Once one dismisses the rest of all possible worlds, one finds that this is
the best of all possible worlds.
				  -Voltaire, _Candide_
_______________________________________________________________________________

>From: "Castalia" <castalia@...>
>I understand that it was compiled somwhere around the 12th century (correct
>me, please) as a pice of nationalists psudo-history


See, that's the problem, most certified historians think it was written by
Sergey Lesnoy in the 20th.

Dmitriy
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Alanna of the perked ears asked:
>What list discusses ritual objects made of
>human body parts?  Sounds like something
>I may be interested in lurking on...

Well, this would be strictly appropriate to any of the following, for
starters:

HREI
The Human Remains Ethical Issues list - very quiet, but occasionally
interesting (it's where that bone got posted). On Onelist/eGroups, so join
by sending a blank e-mail to hrei-subscribe@egroups.com

ARCH-L
the grandaddy of all archaeology lists, running out of Texas A&M. About 2000
members in 50 countries. Biased towards the US, but absolutely ANYTHING
archaeology related is fair game here - from Vikings to Egyptian to Slavic
to Mayan. To subscribe, send an email with a blank subject line, containing
the message SUBSCRIBE ARCH-L firstname lastname to
listserv@...

Britarch
the archaeology list centred around the UK. Amazingly busy - up to 3
*digests*
(25 msgs each) per day!!! To join send an e-mail to mailbase@...
with
the message: join britarch firstname lastname. (You will then be asked to
confirm).

I'm sure there are lots of others... every archaeological specialisation
seems to have its own list these days.

HIH

Alastair

----------------------------------
Alastair Millar
Consultancy and translation for the heritage industry
e-mail: alastair@...,    http://www.skriptorium.cz
P.O.Box 685, CZ 111 21 Prague 1, Czech Republic
Tel: +420.(0)603.274533, Fax: +420.(0)411.832090

> Well, this would be strictly appropriate to any of the following, for
> starters:
>
> HREI
> The Human Remains Ethical Issues list - very quiet, but occasionally
> interesting (it's where that bone got posted). On Onelist/eGroups, so join
> by sending a blank e-mail to hrei-subscribe@egroups.com

So when there are conflicting opinions on the list, is it a bone of contention?

--Smirenka, ducking now

--- Jessica Wilbur <jessica@...> wrote:
>
> > Well, this would be strictly appropriate to any of the following,
> for
> > starters:
> >
> > HREI
> > The Human Remains Ethical Issues list - very quiet, but
> occasionally
> > interesting (it's where that bone got posted). On
> Onelist/eGroups, so join
> > by sending a blank e-mail to hrei-subscribe@egroups.com
>
> So when there are conflicting opinions on the list, is it a bone of
> contention?
>
> --Smirenka, ducking now

Are you sure you're not a herald?

Tasha

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

> > So when there are conflicting opinions on the list, is it a bone of
> > contention?
> >
> > --Smirenka, ducking now
>
> Are you sure you're not a herald?
>
> Tasha

Pretty sure... just trying to be humerus.

--Smirenka, ducking again

"Jessica Wilbur" <jessica@...>

>So when there are conflicting opinions on the list, is it a bone of
>contention?
>
>--Smirenka, ducking now

This is weird.  I got this email AFTER Tasha's reply to it, and after
Smirenka's response to the reply.  I thought I was in Sarajevo, but I'm in
the Twilight Zone!

B. Janos
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Jeff Heilveil <heilveil@...> sent:

>I had recently found a copy of a period woodcut which displayed some
>Hungarian combatants (no, I don't remember where off the top of my head).

Bogdan,

Do you remember if it was early or late period (i.e. pre-kingdom or
kingdom-era)?  I'd be interested in seeing that woodcut if it were
pre-kingdom era.

B. Janos
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com