All,
�
I need to do a paper for my Women in Religion class and wanted to concentrate on
the religion of Lithuania. I know that prior to 1385 it still held onto the
pagan beliefs, at times in the guise of Christianity. What I need to know and be
able to document that�Goddess(s) were the revered ones and not male gods.
�
The paper has to show where women fit into their religion at that time. As an
alternative if there is documentation I can do anything about women in the
period church.
�
thanks in advance,
raven
�

�
After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't know about Lithuania, but check out references to the "Cult of Mary"
(ie: Mother of God).   I've come across it in several places, where the Divine
Mother was MORE important in Church practice than dogma would lead you to think.

--Sfandra



******************
Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
Haus Von Drakenklaue, Kingdom of the East
******************
Never 'pearl' your butt.


--- On Wed, 9/2/09, lori h-b/ raven <lhb17201@...> wrote:

> From: lori h-b/ raven <lhb17201@...>
> Subject: [sig] women religion
> To: "Slav group" <sig@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 12:35 PM
>
> All,
> �
> I need to do a paper for my Women in Religion class and
> wanted to concentrate on the religion of Lithuania. I know
> that prior to 1385 it still held onto the pagan beliefs, at
> times in the guise of Christianity. What I need to know and
> be able to document that�Goddess(s) were the revered ones
> and not male gods.
> �
> The paper has to show where women fit into their religion
> at that time. As an alternative if there is documentation I
> can do anything about women in the period church.
> �
> thanks in advance,
> raven
> �
>
> �
> After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same
> box.
>
>
> � � �
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> � � mailto:sig-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

Yes, thank you, it's actually part of this class. I figured while researching my
heritage I may as well use the information for class.
�
raven


After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box.

--- On Wed, 9/2/09, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:


From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>
Subject: Re: [sig] women religion
To: sig@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 1:45 PM


�



I don't know about Lithuania, but check out references to the "Cult of Mary"
(ie: Mother of God). I've come across it in several places, where the Divine
Mother was MORE important in Church practice than dogma would lead you to think.

--Sfandra

************ ******
Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
Haus Von Drakenklaue, Kingdom of the East
************ ******
Never 'pearl' your butt.

--- On Wed, 9/2/09, lori h-b/ raven <lhb17201@yahoo. com> wrote:

> From: lori h-b/ raven <lhb17201@yahoo. com>
> Subject: [sig] women religion
> To: "Slav group" <sig@yahoogroups. com>
> Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 12:35 PM
>
> All,
> �
> I need to do a paper for my Women in Religion class and
> wanted to concentrate on the religion of Lithuania. I know
> that prior to 1385 it still held onto the pagan beliefs, at
> times in the guise of Christianity. What I need to know and
> be able to document that�Goddess( s) were the revered ones
> and not male gods.
> �
> The paper has to show where women fit into their religion
> at that time. As an alternative if there is documentation I
> can do anything about women in the period church.
> �
> thanks in advance,
> raven
> �
>
> �
> After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same
> box.
>
>
> � � �
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> � � mailto:sig-fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com
>
>
>



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Compare the povoiniks from Anna's book to this picture of Polish embroidered
caps from Magdalena Bartikiewicz's Polski Ubior (photo from Rick Orli's Polish
Lithuanian Commonwealth Page).


http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/Costume/Ubior/P53.jpg

Quite a few similarities. I've also seen a very similar cap from the Kashuby
region in northern Poland.

Magdalena

Unfortunately, we have very few concrete records about pre-conversion
pagan Lithuanian religion, and not enough to tell whether Gods or
Goddesses were mostly revered. We know about sacred trees and about snakes
fed with milk (you might make something out of that). Lots has been said
about folksongs with pagan elements recorded in the 19th & 20th century.
There's reverence for the Earth as Mother, but there's also Perkunas, who
appears to be one of the usual thunder gods...

You can try:
- Lithuania ascending: a pagan empire within east-central Europe, 1295-1345

Marja Gimbutas' work seems to be very (pardon the anti-pun) seminal in
this area; you can also look into the modern Lithuanian neoPaganism called
Romuva.

But basically, I'd try doing a search in your library's resources.
Patricia Monaghan' _Book of Goddesses and Heroines_ has some entries on
Baltic goddesses but I would definitely take her work with a large grain
of salt.

This one:
  	  Goddesses in world mythology / Martha Ann, Dorothy Myers Imel.
Has a section of entries on 'goddesses' of  Eastern Europe, where you
might be able to find more information -- you will want to check the
citations and follow up through the bibliography

There's also some stuff in Coulter & Turner's _Encyclopedia of Ancient
Deities_ and if you have god/goddess names, you can also try the Guide to
the Gods, by Leach.

-- Jadwiga

>
> All,
>  
> I need to do a paper for my Women in Religion class and wanted to
> concentrate on the religion of Lithuania. I know that prior to 1385 it
> still held onto the pagan beliefs, at times in the guise of Christianity.
> What I need to know and be able to document that Goddess(s) were the
> revered ones and not male gods.
>  
> The paper has to show where women fit into their religion at that time. As
> an alternative if there is documentation I can do anything about women in
> the period church.
>  
> thanks in advance,
> raven
>  
>
>  
> After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


--
-- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa
jenne@...

Jan Dlugosz in the 15th century wrote about pagan practices, although he was
discussing historic events, not things witnessed first hand.

There is a brief quote from Dlugosz about men, women and children participating
in a pagan ritual on page 287 of
Dowden, Ken _European paganism: the realities of cult from antiquity to the
Middle Ages_ (London, New York; Routledge, 2000)

Another book that Jadwiga didn't mention, is the very readable _Roles of the
Northern Goddess_  by Hilda Ellis Davidson (London; Routledge, 1998)

A book that will frustrate you with it's sweeping statements and lack of
references for its' assertions, is Jonas Trinkunas _Of Gods and Holidays: The
Baltic Heritage_ (Vilnius : Tverme, 1999). It is an interesting read, but I
wouldn't recommend it as a reference.

Hope that helps a little,
~Asfridhr

--- In sig@yahoogroups.com, jenne@... wrote:
<<snip>>
> > The paper has to show where women fit into their religion at that time. As
> > an alternative if there is documentation I can do anything about women in
> > the period church.
><<snip>>

I know it's the Wikipedia of the mythological set, but pantheon.org has
a lot of stuff regarding world cultures.  Some of the articles have
bibliographies or the ability to contact the editor, which may give you
a good place to start.  a quick check showed 38 articles for the Latvian
region (I know it's north of Lithuania, but it's the closest I can get
without doing some serious digging). They also have articles by name, so
if you know the names of your goddess(es) you can run a check by that.

Other than that, I have a deities book that *might* have some names and
info, but I won't guarantee it. If you have names to give, I can check.

Patches

--- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
>
> Jan Dlugosz in the 15th century wrote about pagan practices, although he was
discussing historic events, not things witnessed first hand.
>
If anyone can tell me where I could get a copy of Jan Dlugosz's book, I'd love
to add it to my collection.

Magdalena

Easier said than done, I'm afraid....



I found this link from the publisher: http://www.impub.co.uk/dlug1.html

Title of its version: "The Annals of Jan Dlugosz: An abridged edition in English
of the great medieval chronicle"

Sample text: http://www.impub.co.uk/dlug3.html



Unfortunately, Amazon lists it as "unavailable," and I can't even find it in the
Library of Congress. The publisher (which seems to be much more interested in
selling books about spectroscopy) seems to be selling it for 60 pounds sterling
(which is USD$97.50).



Darn it all, I want this book too!



Regards,

Patricia of Trakai



-----Original Message-----
From: panimagdalena56 <nunother56@...>
To: sig@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Sep 3, 2009 9:40 am
Subject: [sig] Re: women religion







-----Original Message-----
From: panimagdalena56 <nunother56@...>
To: sig@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Sep 3, 2009 9:40 am
Subject: [sig] Re: women religion




--- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
>
> Jan Dlugosz in the 15th century wrote about pagan practices, although he was
discussing historic events, not things witnessed first hand.
>
If anyone can tell me where I could get a copy of Jan Dlugosz's book, I'd love
to add it to my collection.

Magdalena



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes you have to be super careful because in the absence of facts there is often
a rush of stories and speculations.  For example, some sources talk about a
female earth goddess but another source, a more academic source, said Whoa!
there is no documentation supporting that at all, just a few old folk tales and
morality stories about how we should respect the earth and its bounty which is
analagous to a mother to us which some people seemed to have filled out with
details from the ghia myth - there may have been no earth goddess at all, he
said, or maybe there was.
I don't know, have no opinion, and don't remember details, just did some reading
several years ago.

maybe check out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Romuva/ - I have never been a
member and have no idea what the group discusses.

Also, the slavic and baltic pantheon seem to be different, but just as the
greeks struggled to relate their gods to the egyptian gods, there has been much
effort to draw similiarities amoung various pantheons.
-Rick

--- In sig@yahoogroups.com, jenne@... wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, we have very few concrete records about pre-conversion
> pagan Lithuanian religion, and not enough to tell whether Gods or
> Goddesses were mostly revered. We know about sacred trees and about snakes
> fed with milk (you might make something out of that). Lots has been said
> about folksongs with pagan elements recorded in the 19th & 20th century.
> There's reverence for the Earth as Mother, but there's also Perkunas, who
> appears to be one of the usual thunder gods...
>
> You can try:
> - Lithuania ascending: a pagan empire within east-central Europe, 1295-1345
>
> Marja Gimbutas' work seems to be very (pardon the anti-pun) seminal in
> this area; you can also look into the modern Lithuanian neoPaganism called
> Romuva.
>
> But basically, I'd try doing a search in your library's resources.
> Patricia Monaghan' _Book of Goddesses and Heroines_ has some entries on
> Baltic goddesses but I would definitely take her work with a large grain
> of salt.
>
> This one:
>   	 Goddesses in world mythology / Martha Ann, Dorothy Myers Imel.
> Has a section of entries on 'goddesses' of  Eastern Europe, where you
> might be able to find more information -- you will want to check the
> citations and follow up through the bibliography
>
> There's also some stuff in Coulter & Turner's _Encyclopedia of Ancient
> Deities_ and if you have god/goddess names, you can also try the Guide to
> the Gods, by Leach.
>
> -- Jadwiga
>
> >
> > All,
> >  
> > I need to do a paper for my Women in Religion class and wanted to
> > concentrate on the religion of Lithuania. I know that prior to 1385 it
> > still held onto the pagan beliefs, at times in the guise of Christianity.
> > What I need to know and be able to document that Goddess(s) were the
> > revered ones and not male gods.
> >  
> > The paper has to show where women fit into their religion at that time. As
> > an alternative if there is documentation I can do anything about women in
> > the period church.
> >  
> > thanks in advance,
> > raven
> >  
> >
> >  
> > After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> -- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa
> jenne@...
>

Annals of Jan Dlugoz claims to be available from the publisher:
http://www.impublications.com/shop/the-annals-of-jan-dlugosz.html

> --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
>>
>> Jan Dlugosz in the 15th century wrote about pagan practices, although he
>> was discussing historic events, not things witnessed first hand.
>>
> If anyone can tell me where I could get a copy of Jan Dlugosz's book, I'd
> love to add it to my collection.
>
> Magdalena
>
>


--
-- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa
jenne@...

FYI, this is the worldcat.org record for it,
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/37577645&referer=brief_results

so if you have access to ILL, you might be able to at least borrow it.

>
> I found this link from the publisher: http://www.impub.co.uk/dlug1.html
>
> Title of its version: "The Annals of Jan Dlugosz: An abridged edition in
> English of the great medieval chronicle"
>
> Sample text: http://www.impub.co.uk/dlug3.html
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, Amazon lists it as "unavailable," and I can't even find it
> in the Library of Congress. The publisher (which seems to be much more
> interested in selling books about spectroscopy) seems to be selling it for
> 60 pounds sterling (which is USD$97.50).
>
>
>
> Darn it all, I want this book too!
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Patricia of Trakai
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: panimagdalena56 <nunother56@...>
> To: sig@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, Sep 3, 2009 9:40 am
> Subject: [sig] Re: women religion
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: panimagdalena56 <nunother56@...>
> To: sig@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, Sep 3, 2009 9:40 am
> Subject: [sig] Re: women religion
>
>
>
>
> --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
>>
>> Jan Dlugosz in the 15th century wrote about pagan practices, although he
>> was
> discussing historic events, not things witnessed first hand.
>>
> If anyone can tell me where I could get a copy of Jan Dlugosz's book, I'd
> love
> to add it to my collection.
>
> Magdalena
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


--
-- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa
jenne@...

Has anyone ever ordered anything from Ozon.ru?
Are they trustworthy?

Thanks,
Tatiana

I have, although many many years ago.

It's a big company, kinda like Amazon. There still can be problems of course
but it's definitely not a fly-by-night operation.

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 11:33 PM, tatiana_moskovskaia <doggzie@...>wrote:

>
>
> Has anyone ever ordered anything from Ozon.ru?
> Are they trustworthy?
>
> Thanks,
> Tatiana
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I order from them all the time. Shipping is a killer, but there are lots of
good things to be had. I have a few in my basket now and debating whether to
actually go through with the order. Never had any problems with them.
Liudmila







-----Original Message-----
From: Leon <zima3000@...>
To: sig@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Sep 5, 2009 7:57 am
Subject: Re: [sig] Website question.

























I have, although many many years ago.



It's a big company, kinda like Amazon. There still can be problems of course

but it's definitely not a fly-by-night operation.



On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 11:33 PM, tatiana_moskovskaia <doggzie@...>wrote:



>

>

> Has anyone ever ordered anything from Ozon.ru?

> Are they trustworthy?

>

> Thanks,

> Tatiana

>

>

>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rogned (Maya Frost) asked me to post the following query to the
SIG-L.  If you can help her, please cc her directly
(nisiocan@...) as she does not read the List:

I am looking for documentation on period tents for
10th century Varangian Rus.  I've a few modern illustrations of
approx. 14th/15th c. tent but no proper documentation.  The other
difficulty for me is that I haven't many resources available to me at
the moment other than the internet. Would you be able to post this
query for me, or point me in the right direction?  Cheers.

-Rogned (Maya Frost)


Thanks,
Paul

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: TMR 09.09.15 Wolverton, The Chronicle (repost without accents)
From:    "The Medieval Review" <tmrl@...>
Date:    Thu, September 17, 2009 1:09 am
To:      tmr-l@...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wolverton, Lisa, trans.  Cosmas of Prague. <i>The Chronicle of the
Czechs</i>. Translated with an introduction and notes by Lisa
Wolverton. Medieval Texts in Translation Series. Washington, D.C.:
Catholic University of America Press, 2009. Pp. xvii, 274. $34.95.
ISBN: 0813215706.

    Reviewed by David C. Mengel
         Xavier University
         mengel@...


Like Bede for the English, Cosmas of Prague (c. 1045-1125) offered
Czechs the story of their own origins.  He tells of Bohemus (or ?ech,
in the vernacular), who first brought the Czechs into their own land,
called Bohemia (Cechy) after him. Later came the legendary prophetess
Libu?e, foundress of Prague, whose misogynist subjects convinced her
to select a husband as duke. Her choice fell on the peasant Premysl,
founder of the Premyslid dynasty that ruled the duchy (later kingdom)
of Bohemia into the fourteenth century. Yet Cosmas, an elderly cleric
by the time he began to write (c. 1120), offered these ancient tales
along with a measure of skepticism: "since these things are said to
have occurred in ancient times, we leave it to the reader to judge
whether they are fact or fiction" (63). Cosmas preferred to rely on
his own experience and on the testimony of eyewitnesses, so he devoted
two of his chronicle's three books to the time in which he lived. He
recognized the personal risk--"it seems to us much safer to narrate a
dream, to which no one bears witness, than to write the deeds of
present-day men"--and yet did not shy away from offering judgments on
the personalities and political leaders of his own day (183). As the
dean of Prague cathedral and an octogenarian widower, Cosmas enjoyed
the free-speaking boldness that old age and high rank could provide.
The result is a rich and important twelfth-century text that deserves
to be known better by students of medieval Europe.

Outside today's Central Europe, historians of medieval Bohemia are not
so numerous. Partly for that reason, I (who also study medieval
Bohemia) have agreed to write this review for TMR in spite of my long
friendship with its translator, Lisa Wolverton. This review's readers
should know that I was not involved in any stage of the translation's
preparation but that I did offer the publisher a brief evaluation of
the text once it was in press; a quotation from that evaluation
appears on the book's back cover. With full knowledge of this, TMR's
editors still asked for my review. My agreement reflects my high
opinion of the precise and accessible translation of a very important
text, a translation accompanied by an impressive scholarly apparatus
that includes an introduction, bibliography, index, maps, genealogical
charts and extensive notes. I hope and expect that many scholars and
other students of the Middle Ages will read it.

As Wolverton explains in her introduction, the <i>Chronicle of the
Czechs</i> is what historians have called a "national history." It
tells, and by telling creates, the story of a medieval people. Whereas
the contemporary Normans, for example, benefited from several
chroniclers, Cosmas stands alone for the Czechs. His chronicle
provides the only narrative source, and often the only extant source
of any kind, for most of the events and people he describes. Cosmas
thus remains the fountainhead of the history of early and high
medieval Bohemia.

The locations and characters that populate Cosmas's chronicle--in
distinction to those described by his contemporaries Eadmer and
Orderic Vitalis--will be unfamiliar to most readers of this
translation, the first one into English. Instead of Canterbury,
Hereford and London, here we encounter Stara Boleslav, M?lník and
especially Prague. Instead of a succession of Williams and Roberts,
here we meet multiple B?etislavs and Borivojs. Some of their names
will test the Anglophone tongue--try Detrisek, for example (219). Even
good old saintly Wenceslas (a tenth-century duke, not a king) appears
here not in his Latinate guise, but as the Czech Václav (as Wolverton
explains in a footnote).

Great profit awaits those willing to overcome this unfamiliarity,
however, and Wolverton has provided all the necessary tools.
Genealogies, lists of dukes and bishops, and well-drawn maps will
allow even undergraduate readers to follow along without getting
hopelessly lost. Even better, rich footnotes--yes, footnotes instead
of endnotes--identify countless allusions and explain many things that
Cosmas assumed his (mostly) clerical readers would know. What is a
mitre? A suffragan? Prime and the other liturgical hours? Wolverton's
notes offer succinct, clear answers that make this text particularly
accessible to undergraduates.

Once readers get past the unfamiliar names, they will find much that
is less exceptional than characteristic of twelfth-century Europe,
especially Central Europe. For example, Cosmas tells of Crusaders on
their way to Jerusalem who passed through Bohemia in 1096, attacking
and forcibly baptizing Jews, and of the Prague bishop who both failed
to prevent these violent christenings and later quietly overlooked the
same Jews' return to the practice of Judaism. (Cosmas clearly
disapproved of both the forced conversions and the bishops' later
"negligence" in allowing Bohemian Jews to relapse.) Students of the
Gregorian reform movement will note that the twelfth-century prelate
Cosmas makes no secret of his wife or his son, but that he also
praises the virginity of bishops such as St. Adalbert (d. 997). Those
familiar with the events at Canossa in 1077 will be struck by the
several accounts here of the election of bishops of Prague--in short,
Bohemia's dukes nearly always managed to appoint their own choices, so
long as the other Bohemian nobles didn't object. Rich gifts then
invariably secured the approval of the Mainz archbishop and especially
the emperor, who personally invested each new bishop with ring and
staff, all with hardly a nod towards Rome. Those interested in
questions of ethnic identity or even the development of medieval
"nationalism" should consider Cosmas's warm approval of a newly
elected duke's 1055 expulsion of all Germans from Bohemia--an
expulsion that included the duke's own mother!

Cosmas's chronicle also tells tales of saints, of miracles, and even
of thefts of relics. It takes a keen interest in Bohemia's
ecclesiastical politics, and especially of the periodic division of
the realm into two bishoprics. But fundamentally, as Wolverton notes,
Cosmas offers a political tale. The majority of the text relates
rollicking stories of war and political intrigue, of brotherly strife
and ruthless rivalries between noble families. Readers will find
sufficient orientation in this translation's introduction, which
provides a clear, brief guide to Cosmas and his world. For the larger
picture and its detailed analysis, Wolverton's own monograph is
essential: <i>Hastening Toward Prague: Power and Society in the
Medieval Czech Lands</i> (Philadelphia, 2001).

Even on their own, Cosmas's many evocative anecdotes provide the
reader an excellent sense of the exercise of political power in high
medieval Bohemia. Brothers and other rivals are tonsured by force,
blinded and castrated, or simply assassinated. Cosmas himself seems to
have witnessed the aftermath of one failed plot, by which the nobleman
Mutina evidently sought to overthrow Duke Svatopluk (r. 1107-9) in
favor of Borivoj II (r. 1100-7; 1117-20)--the latter both preceded and
eventually succeeded his cousin Svatopluk. Raging mad, Duke Svatopluk
ordered the death of Mutina and all his kin. Here and elsewhere,
Cosmas does not shrink from offering his own opinion.

What should I say about the death of Mutina's sons, whose
death seemed crueler than any death? They were little
boys of good disposition, with faces worth looking at,
lovable in appearance, of the like that no skilled
craftsman would be able to express in white ivory, nor a
painter on a wall. We saw them pitifully dragged into the
market, frequently crying out: "Mother! Mother!" when the
bloody butcher killed them both under his arm with a
small knife, like piglets. Everyone scattered, striking
their breasts, in order not to see the butcher performing
such a cruel misdeed" (212).

A Prague official, suspected by a subsequent duke of favoring a rival,
was later subjected to a more creative punishment. Before being sent
away to exile in Poland, he was dragged around the market square by
his beard with "a huge, mangy dog, drunk on yesterday's broth...tied
to his shoulders,...barking and shitting on [him]." Public
humiliation, indeed.

Cosmas's important chronicle survives in more than a dozen
manuscripts, and Bertold Bretholz long ago published an excellent
critical edition: <i>Die Chronik der Böhmen des Cosmas von Prag</i>,
Monumenta Germaniae Historica, Scriptores, n.s. II (Berlin, 1923). Yet
the quality and precision of Wolverton's translation--and especially
the inclusion of its extensive footnotes--will now make her text the
best starting point even for most Anglophone scholars. Cosmas,
educated at Liège, infuses his text with biblical, Christian and
classical quotations and allusions. Bretholz's edition painstakingly
identified many of these, and Wolverton (and the series editors)
wisely included them in the translation's footnotes. When Cosmas is
echoing the Psalms or the <i>Aeneid</i>, Lucan's <i>Civil War</i> or
Regino of Prüm's <i>Chronicle</i>, the notes keep the reader informed
without breaking the flow of the text itself.

Heavily laden with authoritative citations and self-conscious in its
rhetoric, at times even slipping into rhymed prose or verse, the Latin
of Cosmas's chronicle offer a challenge to any translator. Here again
both the scholar and the student are well served. Wolverton's
translation is meticulous and consistent. The introduction dedicates
several pages to her carefully considered translation of particular
words, such as <i>regnum</i>, <i>urbs</i>, <i>civitas</i>,
<i>metropolis</i>, and <i>miles</i>--and of her decision not to
translate other words, such as <i>comes</i>, "as the term does not
carry the same hierarchical or vassalic connotations in the Czech
Lands that it does elsewhere in Europe" (23). The result is precise
and reliable, even (occasionally) at the partial expense of fluidity.
The Latin original retains its primacy. The reader not only grasps the
meaning, but also quite often becomes acquainted with the idiomatic
expression. Swords are not just worn, they "hang on the thigh," for
example (e.g., 116, 127). When the translation simply cannot convey
the Latin wordplay of the original, Wolverton indicates this in a
footnote (e.g., the "hostile lances" in the phrase, "Non nos
<i>hostilia</i> portamus <i>hastilia</i>, p. 224).

Wolverton's careful and precise method of translation keeps her text
remarkably close to the meaning and even the syntax of the Latin,
word-for-word and phrase-for-phrase. This tendency towards a literal
rather than a more flowing but less accurate translation will benefit
the same readers who will appreciate the liberal notes: scholars and
advanced undergraduates working, perhaps, on research essays. Every
translator must make her own decisions, and of course there are places
where I might have chosen a different word or phrase than Wolverton
has. Only very rarely does her translation risk misunderstanding. Some
North American readers, for example, might be tempted to think of
yellow maize instead of wheat or barley grain when they read "ears of
tender corn" (<i>spicas tenere segetis</i>), though British readers
will have no such trouble (226, cf. 188). One particularly difficult
passage involving the study of logic in France leads Wolverton to
suggest that Cosmas may be alluding specifically to Abelard, who was
active in Paris around that time (250 n. 293). I read the Latin
passage a bit differently and find unconvincing the (admittedly
tantalizing) suggestion that Cosmas had Abelard in particular in mind.

But this is, quite literally, to quibble with one speculative footnote
of the translation's nearly one thousand notes. Wolverton has indeed
produced a remarkable piece of scholarship, and not just a handy
translation of an important high-medieval chronicle. The introduction,
footnotes and other elements of the scholarly apparatus greatly
enhance the book's value for historians and other scholars of the
Middle Ages, readers who might not otherwise take the time to read the
Latin edition. To them I highly recommend it. Nor will I hesitate to
recommend or assign it to my own students, for whom it offers
unprecedented access to the world of central Europe in the twelfth
century.


--
-- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa
jenne@...

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: TMR 09.09.15 Wolverton, The Chronicle (repost without accents)
From:    "The Medieval Review" <tmrl@...>
Date:    Thu, September 17, 2009 1:09 am
To:      tmr-l@...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wolverton, Lisa, trans.  Cosmas of Prague. <i>The Chronicle of the
Czechs</i>. Translated with an introduction and notes by Lisa
Wolverton. Medieval Texts in Translation Series. Washington, D.C.:
Catholic University of America Press, 2009. Pp. xvii, 274. $34.95.
ISBN: 0813215706.

    Reviewed by David C. Mengel
         Xavier University
         mengel@...


Like Bede for the English, Cosmas of Prague (c. 1045-1125) offered
Czechs the story of their own origins.  He tells of Bohemus (or ?ech,
in the vernacular), who first brought the Czechs into their own land,
called Bohemia (Cechy) after him. Later came the legendary prophetess
Libu?e, foundress of Prague, whose misogynist subjects convinced her
to select a husband as duke. Her choice fell on the peasant Premysl,
founder of the Premyslid dynasty that ruled the duchy (later kingdom)
of Bohemia into the fourteenth century. Yet Cosmas, an elderly cleric
by the time he began to write (c. 1120), offered these ancient tales
along with a measure of skepticism: "since these things are said to
have occurred in ancient times, we leave it to the reader to judge
whether they are fact or fiction" (63). Cosmas preferred to rely on
his own experience and on the testimony of eyewitnesses, so he devoted
two of his chronicle's three books to the time in which he lived. He
recognized the personal risk--"it seems to us much safer to narrate a
dream, to which no one bears witness, than to write the deeds of
present-day men"--and yet did not shy away from offering judgments on
the personalities and political leaders of his own day (183). As the
dean of Prague cathedral and an octogenarian widower, Cosmas enjoyed
the free-speaking boldness that old age and high rank could provide.
The result is a rich and important twelfth-century text that deserves
to be known better by students of medieval Europe.

Outside today's Central Europe, historians of medieval Bohemia are not
so numerous. Partly for that reason, I (who also study medieval
Bohemia) have agreed to write this review for TMR in spite of my long
friendship with its translator, Lisa Wolverton. This review's readers
should know that I was not involved in any stage of the translation's
preparation but that I did offer the publisher a brief evaluation of
the text once it was in press; a quotation from that evaluation
appears on the book's back cover. With full knowledge of this, TMR's
editors still asked for my review. My agreement reflects my high
opinion of the precise and accessible translation of a very important
text, a translation accompanied by an impressive scholarly apparatus
that includes an introduction, bibliography, index, maps, genealogical
charts and extensive notes. I hope and expect that many scholars and
other students of the Middle Ages will read it.

As Wolverton explains in her introduction, the <i>Chronicle of the
Czechs</i> is what historians have called a "national history." It
tells, and by telling creates, the story of a medieval people. Whereas
the contemporary Normans, for example, benefited from several
chroniclers, Cosmas stands alone for the Czechs. His chronicle
provides the only narrative source, and often the only extant source
of any kind, for most of the events and people he describes. Cosmas
thus remains the fountainhead of the history of early and high
medieval Bohemia.

The locations and characters that populate Cosmas's chronicle--in
distinction to those described by his contemporaries Eadmer and
Orderic Vitalis--will be unfamiliar to most readers of this
translation, the first one into English. Instead of Canterbury,
Hereford and London, here we encounter Stara Boleslav, M?lník and
especially Prague. Instead of a succession of Williams and Roberts,
here we meet multiple B?etislavs and Borivojs. Some of their names
will test the Anglophone tongue--try Detrisek, for example (219). Even
good old saintly Wenceslas (a tenth-century duke, not a king) appears
here not in his Latinate guise, but as the Czech Václav (as Wolverton
explains in a footnote).

Great profit awaits those willing to overcome this unfamiliarity,
however, and Wolverton has provided all the necessary tools.
Genealogies, lists of dukes and bishops, and well-drawn maps will
allow even undergraduate readers to follow along without getting
hopelessly lost. Even better, rich footnotes--yes, footnotes instead
of endnotes--identify countless allusions and explain many things that
Cosmas assumed his (mostly) clerical readers would know. What is a
mitre? A suffragan? Prime and the other liturgical hours? Wolverton's
notes offer succinct, clear answers that make this text particularly
accessible to undergraduates.

Once readers get past the unfamiliar names, they will find much that
is less exceptional than characteristic of twelfth-century Europe,
especially Central Europe. For example, Cosmas tells of Crusaders on
their way to Jerusalem who passed through Bohemia in 1096, attacking
and forcibly baptizing Jews, and of the Prague bishop who both failed
to prevent these violent christenings and later quietly overlooked the
same Jews' return to the practice of Judaism. (Cosmas clearly
disapproved of both the forced conversions and the bishops' later
"negligence" in allowing Bohemian Jews to relapse.) Students of the
Gregorian reform movement will note that the twelfth-century prelate
Cosmas makes no secret of his wife or his son, but that he also
praises the virginity of bishops such as St. Adalbert (d. 997). Those
familiar with the events at Canossa in 1077 will be struck by the
several accounts here of the election of bishops of Prague--in short,
Bohemia's dukes nearly always managed to appoint their own choices, so
long as the other Bohemian nobles didn't object. Rich gifts then
invariably secured the approval of the Mainz archbishop and especially
the emperor, who personally invested each new bishop with ring and
staff, all with hardly a nod towards Rome. Those interested in
questions of ethnic identity or even the development of medieval
"nationalism" should consider Cosmas's warm approval of a newly
elected duke's 1055 expulsion of all Germans from Bohemia--an
expulsion that included the duke's own mother!

Cosmas's chronicle also tells tales of saints, of miracles, and even
of thefts of relics. It takes a keen interest in Bohemia's
ecclesiastical politics, and especially of the periodic division of
the realm into two bishoprics. But fundamentally, as Wolverton notes,
Cosmas offers a political tale. The majority of the text relates
rollicking stories of war and political intrigue, of brotherly strife
and ruthless rivalries between noble families. Readers will find
sufficient orientation in this translation's introduction, which
provides a clear, brief guide to Cosmas and his world. For the larger
picture and its detailed analysis, Wolverton's own monograph is
essential: <i>Hastening Toward Prague: Power and Society in the
Medieval Czech Lands</i> (Philadelphia, 2001).

Even on their own, Cosmas's many evocative anecdotes provide the
reader an excellent sense of the exercise of political power in high
medieval Bohemia. Brothers and other rivals are tonsured by force,
blinded and castrated, or simply assassinated. Cosmas himself seems to
have witnessed the aftermath of one failed plot, by which the nobleman
Mutina evidently sought to overthrow Duke Svatopluk (r. 1107-9) in
favor of Borivoj II (r. 1100-7; 1117-20)--the latter both preceded and
eventually succeeded his cousin Svatopluk. Raging mad, Duke Svatopluk
ordered the death of Mutina and all his kin. Here and elsewhere,
Cosmas does not shrink from offering his own opinion.

What should I say about the death of Mutina's sons, whose
death seemed crueler than any death? They were little
boys of good disposition, with faces worth looking at,
lovable in appearance, of the like that no skilled
craftsman would be able to express in white ivory, nor a
painter on a wall. We saw them pitifully dragged into the
market, frequently crying out: "Mother! Mother!" when the
bloody butcher killed them both under his arm with a
small knife, like piglets. Everyone scattered, striking
their breasts, in order not to see the butcher performing
such a cruel misdeed" (212).

A Prague official, suspected by a subsequent duke of favoring a rival,
was later subjected to a more creative punishment. Before being sent
away to exile in Poland, he was dragged around the market square by
his beard with "a huge, mangy dog, drunk on yesterday's broth...tied
to his shoulders,...barking and shitting on [him]." Public
humiliation, indeed.

Cosmas's important chronicle survives in more than a dozen
manuscripts, and Bertold Bretholz long ago published an excellent
critical edition: <i>Die Chronik der Böhmen des Cosmas von Prag</i>,
Monumenta Germaniae Historica, Scriptores, n.s. II (Berlin, 1923). Yet
the quality and precision of Wolverton's translation--and especially
the inclusion of its extensive footnotes--will now make her text the
best starting point even for most Anglophone scholars. Cosmas,
educated at Liège, infuses his text with biblical, Christian and
classical quotations and allusions. Bretholz's edition painstakingly
identified many of these, and Wolverton (and the series editors)
wisely included them in the translation's footnotes. When Cosmas is
echoing the Psalms or the <i>Aeneid</i>, Lucan's <i>Civil War</i> or
Regino of Prüm's <i>Chronicle</i>, the notes keep the reader informed
without breaking the flow of the text itself.

Heavily laden with authoritative citations and self-conscious in its
rhetoric, at times even slipping into rhymed prose or verse, the Latin
of Cosmas's chronicle offer a challenge to any translator. Here again
both the scholar and the student are well served. Wolverton's
translation is meticulous and consistent. The introduction dedicates
several pages to her carefully considered translation of particular
words, such as <i>regnum</i>, <i>urbs</i>, <i>civitas</i>,
<i>metropolis</i>, and <i>miles</i>--and of her decision not to
translate other words, such as <i>comes</i>, "as the term does not
carry the same hierarchical or vassalic connotations in the Czech
Lands that it does elsewhere in Europe" (23). The result is precise
and reliable, even (occasionally) at the partial expense of fluidity.
The Latin original retains its primacy. The reader not only grasps the
meaning, but also quite often becomes acquainted with the idiomatic
expression. Swords are not just worn, they "hang on the thigh," for
example (e.g., 116, 127). When the translation simply cannot convey
the Latin wordplay of the original, Wolverton indicates this in a
footnote (e.g., the "hostile lances" in the phrase, "Non nos
<i>hostilia</i> portamus <i>hastilia</i>, p. 224).

Wolverton's careful and precise method of translation keeps her text
remarkably close to the meaning and even the syntax of the Latin,
word-for-word and phrase-for-phrase. This tendency towards a literal
rather than a more flowing but less accurate translation will benefit
the same readers who will appreciate the liberal notes: scholars and
advanced undergraduates working, perhaps, on research essays. Every
translator must make her own decisions, and of course there are places
where I might have chosen a different word or phrase than Wolverton
has. Only very rarely does her translation risk misunderstanding. Some
North American readers, for example, might be tempted to think of
yellow maize instead of wheat or barley grain when they read "ears of
tender corn" (<i>spicas tenere segetis</i>), though British readers
will have no such trouble (226, cf. 188). One particularly difficult
passage involving the study of logic in France leads Wolverton to
suggest that Cosmas may be alluding specifically to Abelard, who was
active in Paris around that time (250 n. 293). I read the Latin
passage a bit differently and find unconvincing the (admittedly
tantalizing) suggestion that Cosmas had Abelard in particular in mind.

But this is, quite literally, to quibble with one speculative footnote
of the translation's nearly one thousand notes. Wolverton has indeed
produced a remarkable piece of scholarship, and not just a handy
translation of an important high-medieval chronicle. The introduction,
footnotes and other elements of the scholarly apparatus greatly
enhance the book's value for historians and other scholars of the
Middle Ages, readers who might not otherwise take the time to read the
Latin edition. To them I highly recommend it. Nor will I hesitate to
recommend or assign it to my own students, for whom it offers
unprecedented access to the world of central Europe in the twelfth
century.


--
-- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa
jenne@...

Thanks for the heads-up on this book, Jadwiga.  I'll certainly be adding it to
my (omg-ever-increasing) library....

--Sfandra



******************
Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
Haus Von Drakenklaue, Kingdom of the East
******************
Never 'pearl' your butt.


--- On Thu, 9/17/09, jenne@... <jenne@...> wrote:

> From: jenne@... <jenne@...>
> Subject: [sig] [Fwd: TMR 09.09.15 Wolverton,      The Chronicle (repost
without accents)]
> To: "Slavic Interest Group " <sig@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thursday, September 17, 2009, 2:41 PM
>
>
> ---------------------------- Original Message

I just returned from Davit Gareji on the Azeri border.  What a beautiful place! 
If you want to check out the pics, go to:

http://travldawrld.blogspot.com/

Russ

 I wanted to pass this on to people in the DC area who may want to attend.
 
raven


After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box.

--- On Sat, 9/19/09, DCLJS <dcljs@...> wrote:


From: DCLJS <dcljs@...>
Subject: Oct 2 - presentation of "Vilnius: City of Strangers"
To: "'DCLJS'" <dcljs@...>
Date: Saturday, September 19, 2009, 1:15 PM








On the occasion of
Lithuania ’s Millennium and Vilnius - European Capital of Culture 2009
The Embassy of the Republic of Lithuania
In cooperation with the
Lithuanian American Community, Inc., Cultural Affairs Council

Cordially invite you to

The Book Presentation

Vilnius : City of Strangers
By Laimonas Briedis
     
Friday, October 2, 5:30 pm

Embassy of Lithuania
2622 16th Street, NW, Washington DC

Admission: free

Vin d’honneur to follow

RSVP by September 28, 2009                       
Business attire
e-mail: leonas.garbacauskas@...

Program

Welcome remarks by H.E. Audrius Bruzga, Ambassador of Lithuania

Introducing the author – Dale Lukas

Remarks by author Laimonas Briedis

Readings from the book by Alina Naujokaitis

96 pages, 76 illustrations, Central European University Press
Vilnius: City of strangers is a book with a different view of Vilnius,
it is looking at the city from the outside-in.  It relates, through the
experiences and impressions of foreign travelers, the cultural and
social history of the old city.
The book is 296 pages, 76 illustrations, Published by
Central European University Press

“This is an admirable book on an essentric and whimsical city”
Tomas Venclova – Yale University  




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oct 3-4 Konotop, Ukrainian Homestead, Leighton PA -  our big event of the year
Battle of Konotop, also known as the Battle of Sosnivka, was a battle fought
between the hetman of Ukraine, Ivan Vyhovsky, and his allies against the armies
of the Muscovites led by prince Aleksey Trubetskoy, on June 29, 1659 near the
town of Konotop.
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/konotop_1659.htm
I need whoever has not contacted me about accomidations to do so, for themselves
or on behalf of their group... also please let me know count and days attending
- names of participants would be nice.
free tent space and indoor barrack-room/crash space. (bring sleeping bags or
sheets/blankets) and on-site hotel is $65 per night.  we are getting lunch
Saturday, and Saturday evening we will do a group potluck and cook something
(potluck dish or chip in $5 please)

We are getting there to set up friday afternoon, the public will be there mostly
on Saturday, and Sunday is mostly for us

--- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Orli" <orlirva@...> wrote:
>
> This weekend the event is held at the 4-winds renfaire east of Dallas Texas.
Come on down!  A few of us from the east coast will drive or fly over for the
event... I'm personally playing the role of a Muscovite and will be fighting the
Poles and Cossacks.
>
> Reminder: We are organizing a second Konotop battle reenactment and Cossack
Heritage fair at (and with the staff of) the Ukrainian homestead, Leighton PA. 
Oct 3-4.  We hope for the active involvement of several members of this list!
> -Rick
>

I just posted some more pics from my 'Davit Gareji' trip on my site.  Please
check them out (and leave comments) at:

http://travldawrld.blogspot.com/

Russ

Greetings from Sofya to all my friends at SIG.

The deed is done!

For all of you who were so enthusiastic about my elevation, here are the
pictures and video:
*http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Medieval/laurel.html*<http://www.strangelove\
.net/~kieser/Medieval/Laurel/KCAT_8472.jpg>

For those of you who were surprised that I wasn't already a Laurel and were
wondering, perhaps, what was wrong with Calontir that it took this long,
please remember that it takes more than just expertise in one's field to be
a Peer.  Other qualities must also be demonstrated.  That takes more than a
website and a bunch of emails which were, unfortunately, almost the only way
I could be "active" in the SCA up until fairly recently.  I still don't feel
quite ready to be a _Calontir_ Peer, but I'll muddle through.  ;-)

Thank you for all your good wishes!

At your service,

Sofya

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
-------------------------------------
Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
"Si no necare, sana."  "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
"Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
---------------------------------------


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK, A)  CONGRATS!!!!  WOOOOO!!!!!!

And B) The play -by- play is freakin' HILARIOUS!  AND CONGRATS!

and C) CONGRATS!!!!!

Cheering for you,
(and LOVING the garb)
--Sfandra Dmitrieva



******************
Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
Haus Von Drakenklaue, Kingdom of the East
******************
Never 'pearl' your butt.
******************


--- On Sun, 9/27/09, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

> From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
> Subject: [sig] The New Russian Laurel
> To: sig@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 7:31 PM
> Greetings from Sofya to all my
> friends at SIG.
>
> The deed is done!
>
> For all of you who were so enthusiastic about my elevation,
> here are the
> pictures and video:
>
*http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Medieval/laurel.html*<http://www.strangelove\
.net/~kieser/Medieval/Laurel/KCAT_8472.jpg>
>
> For those of you who were surprised that I wasn't already a
> Laurel and were
> wondering, perhaps, what was wrong with Calontir that it
> took this long,
> please remember that it takes more than just expertise in
> one's field to be
> a Peer.� Other qualities must also be
> demonstrated.� That takes more than a
> website and a bunch of emails which were, unfortunately,
> almost the only way
> I could be "active" in the SCA up until fairly
> recently.� I still don't feel
> quite ready to be a _Calontir_ Peer, but I'll muddle
> through.� ;-)
>
> Thank you for all your good wishes!
>
> At your service,
>
> Sofya

I knew they had nigh unto everything online, just didn't realize how many
examples of towel end and shirt fronts etc were there.

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchresult.cfm?parent_id=28829\
4&word=Hand%20weaving%20--%20Russia&s=3¬word=&d=&c=&f=2&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sS\
cope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&snum=0&imgs=20

Congratulations! Beautiful ceremony, and nice to see all those Russians in
action.
Liudmila







-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
To: sig@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Sep 27, 2009 4:31 pm
Subject: [sig] The New Russian Laurel

























Greetings from Sofya to all my friends at SIG.



The deed is done!



For all of you who were so enthusiastic about my elevation, here are the

pictures and video:

*http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Medieval/laurel.html*<http://www.strangelove\
.net/~kieser/Medieval/Laurel/KCAT_8472.jpg>



For those of you who were surprised that I wasn't already a Laurel and were

wondering, perhaps, what was wrong with Calontir that it took this long,

please remember that it takes more than just expertise in one's field to be

a Peer.  Other qualities must also be demonstrated.  That takes more than a

website and a bunch of emails which were, unfortunately, almost the only way

I could be "active" in the SCA up until fairly recently.  I still don't feel

quite ready to be a _Calontir_ Peer, but I'll muddle through.  ;-)



Thank you for all your good wishes!



At your service,



Sofya



----------------------------------------------------------

Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova

Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir

http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser

"Si no necare, sana."  "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"

"Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."

----------------------------------------------------------



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm about to start working on the Fall Slovo and I don't have any
accounts of what went on at Pennsic this year.  I realize that it was
some time ago, but could someone send me (off-list would be great)
their account of what happened at the SIG gathering at the War?

Thanks,
Paul

On Sunday 27 September 2009 7:31:56 pm Lisa Kies wrote:
> Greetings from Sofya to all my friends at SIG.
>
> The deed is done!
>
> For all of you who were so enthusiastic about my elevation, here are the
> pictures and video:
> *http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Medieval/laurel.html*<http://www.strang
>elove.net/~kieser/Medieval/Laurel/KCAT_8472.jpg>

I've been an admirer of your Medieval Russia web pages for a long time.
Congratulations!

--
Cathy Raymond <cathy@...>

"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."
   --Walter Bagehot




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings Sofya and Congratulations from Trimaris' newest Pelican... ;-p

Sasha


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]