sig : Messages : 10907-10936 of 16055

Never mind about the ebay link.

It's online.
http://www.indiana.edu/~librcsd/etext/tilke/contents.html
Ilaria

#10909

From: "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...>
Date: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:36 pm
Subject: tilke

lyndafjellman

http://cgi.ebay.com/Scarce-1957-COSTUME-PATTERNS-AND-DESIGNS-Tilke-ILLUS
-HB_W0QQitemZ4633564730QQcategoryZ378QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewIt
em

For those of you that aren't familiar with Tilke, here is an ebay link
that has some nice pics of the pictures.

I like it for no other reason than it is a really nice book showing all
sorts of ways of putting together rectangles and triangles to make a
fitted (or not so fitted) garment.
Ilaria

#10910

From: "Lynda Fjellman" <lfjellman@...>
Date: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:20 pm
Subject: RE: Coat patterns a good jumping off point?

lyndafjellman

You know, I think it all has to do with where and when the patterning of
the clothing went from strictly rectangular construction to the more
"modern" style with rounded armscyes and curved sleevecaps.  This tended
to happen in the 1300's in western Europe, but did not happen till much
later (if at all) in others.
I went to a Turkish exhibit a couple years ago and the coats/caftans
were definitely rectangular in construction (see Max Tilke for diagrams)
I have general questions about whether "western construction" had taken
over in many eastern lands.  Poland was very western oriented, so maybe,
I don't know about other areas.
Has anyone done a survey on the time frames of when folks switched?

One of the things I'm going to be looking into when we go to Poland next
year.

If you wanted to be "very traditional" I doubt you would go wrong with
rectangular construction for the coat pattern rather than a modern
pattern.  After all, even in western Europe, each garment was cut
specifically for the client and each tailor had their own patterns.
Ilaria

Reply | Messages in this Topic (4)

#10911

From: "Lente" <lente@...>
Date: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:10 am
Subject: Re: tilke

threeravenbirds

well I actually have this and mine is a new copy never even opened that I
could tell, and i got it for under $100. The website does not have all the
plates and stuff from the book that I can tell you. Is it even worth the
money, yes. I use it mostly to help me figure out what a piece of clothing
might have been made like, great jumping off point for us Eastern Europe,
steppes, etc. in some cases.

Kathws

Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:38 PM
Subject: [sig] tilke


> Never mind about the ebay link.
>
> It's online.
> http://www.indiana.edu/~librcsd/etext/tilke/contents.html
> Ilaria

#10912

From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
Date: Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:19 pm
Subject: fur-lined items

mordakus

Actually, I've converted 4 fur coats into period
shubas and taught a class in the same at Pennsic
twice...I could send you a copy of my class manual and
answer any questions that you have? If so, I bet
theres very little that Soraya, Anastasiia or Sofya
can't answer....feel free to ask! BTW, I love my shuba
an I am currently starting to also convert a "mink"
coat into a shuba for my lady. It started out life as
a group of muskrats but that was very popular in the
40's and 50's when most of these coats first started
hanging in Gandma/Aunt Ethel/ etc. closet.

--- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:

> For late period, I would recommend looking at
> Eugenia Tolmachoff's article on court costume:
>
>
http://www.cs.arizona.edu/patterns/weaving/articles/nb51_cos.pdf
>
> For mid period, try the 15th Century Novgorod
> Merchant's Wife article:
>
>
http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/PartizanWoman.html
>
> I converted a mundane wool coat into something
> Russian-looking, so if you have specific questions,
> please feel free. 
>
> One problem is that "all" Russian coats hide
> the fur inside - so most of your mink
> won't show.  Almost a waste, really.
>
> Sofya la Rus
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> >I have procured a full length mink
> >coat and would like to make a mid-late period
> Russian winter coat. I have
> >no idea where to begin my research or how to make
> or where to purchase the
> >pattern. If any idea, suggestions or help would be
> appreciated. I also
> >have a white rabbit coat that I would like to make
> something with that I
> >don't know what to do with. Any help would be very
> appreciated.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

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#10913

From: "Rick Orli" <orlirva@...>
Date: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:47 pm
Subject: Re: fur-lined items

orlirva

Yes, you don't see the fur, much, but it is so not-period and so
modern to have a bit of fur decoration on the edge. False to the
spirit, to the core.  not that I would have put it past any tailor in
any fashion era to do a trick of any sort for looks, but generally in
the pre-central-heating and travel-by-horseback-or-foot 16th-17th C.
they were rather interested in staying warm.

Do you have an opinion on this? : I also started a fur coat
conversion a couple of years ago.  I decided, since the fur
(muskrat?) was fairly thick, to leave the armpit area with just a
cloth lining.  If I had a thin/light fur such as ermine I probabally
would not have done that, but with what I had it just seemed I would
have bulk where it would not belong. Maybe I cold have trimmed the
fur. I wish I knew if that was a legit strategy.  My guess from the
actual fur lined garments (mostly turkish kaftans) I have seen was
that they were fully lined, but I could not inspect them that
closely, and anyway they were ususally super-high-end stuff with
ermine or whatnot.

-Rick
> > One problem is that "all" Russian coats hide
> > the fur inside - so most of your mink
> > won't show.  Almost a waste, really.
> >
> > Sofya la Rus
> >
> > ------- Original Message -------
> > >I have procured a full length mink
> > >coat and would like to make a mid-late period
> > Russian winter coat. I have
> > >no idea where to begin my research or how to make
> > or where to purchase the
> > >pattern. If any idea, suggestions or help would be
> > appreciated. I also
> > >have a white rabbit coat that I would like to make
> > something with that I
> > >don't know what to do with. Any help would be very
> > appreciated.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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#10914

From: "Rick Orli" <orlirva@...>
Date: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:54 pm
Subject: 17th C. costume articles

orlirva

2 other old projects finally posted:
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/polish_costume_polski_ubior.htm
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/PLC_uniforms.htm

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#10915

From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
Date: Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:58 pm
Subject: Re: Re: fur-lined items, construction basics

mordakus

I love fur, I have many garments with fur on them,but
I'm a "Russian", which compliments being Irish with a
disturbing ease.....these are the basics for furlined
garments.

Rule #1:
Water based animals have more oil in their fur and
hide to deal with water and repelling it. That's
important when you consider the fact that most of the
fur items on eBay are straight out of a closet where
they have been residing since the 1940s and 1950s,
drying out in the heat in the winter and being
desicated for moisture all summer in central air or
the heat of July and August. Land based fur like fox,
rabbit, ermine, etc. needs to be reinforced with
heat-bond and cheap cotton fabric to glue the hair
follicles in place and add structure to dry leather.
Moisturizing it just accelerates the shredding effect
faster.

Rule #2:
     Ridges where your have whip stitched the pieces
together that will show through on the covering
fabric. Use your fingers to push the fur away from the
edges when you are sewing so its leather on leather.
Use a comb afterwards to combine the fur follicles of
the two pieces for a smooth surface.
     Your can pull this welt flatter and heavy brocade
or coat weight wool won't show it as much, but silks,
lighter brocades, velvet, linen, lighter wools, etc.
will show it and look horrible. You can sew strips of
fabric over them before putting the cloth shell over
them or your can do a layer of thick fabric as a shell
over all the outside and pin or sew it in place with a
long basting stitch, which is exactly what furriers
still do, use a basting stitch that is. I use craft
felt because its thick, lightweight, partially
synthethic so it keeps its shape and is cheap.

Rule #3:
     Armpits. Lower the armpit or have unlined sleeves
like the Turks and Poles were commonly doing. Does
Bathory's delia sleeves look lined? Or put a gusset
diamond in the armpit to lower it and widen the chest.


Rule #4:
     Short napped furs like muskrat and mink are less
bulky than raccoon, more available and cheaper. I put
low bids in on fur coats on eBay till I eventually won
two. My Turkish shuba is lined with  size 10 and size
12 coon coats but it has wide sleeves and is floor
length. It also weighs ten pounds but is actually
light to wear. Beaver would also be heavy. BTW, I am a
5'10" 180# male.

Rule #5:
     Use a utility razor blade to cut the fur on the
leather side, with the grain of the fur and NEVER FLAT
on a table. Pin one end unde a foot, knee or leg and
hold the other end up instead. You can get packs of
100 utility one edge razors for $4 at a hardwear
store.

Those are the basics. I never ever use land based furs
for anything other that trim on low wear edges, hats
or collars.
'dok


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#10916

From: "Lente" <lente@...>
Date: Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:58 am
Subject: fur hat help needed was: fur-lined items, construction basics

threeravenbirds

Hmmm, I not working on a fur coat but I have a felted hat for my mongol lord
that I need to finish, I keep getting stumped on how wide a strip of fur for
it should be. Right now I have one fox fur (bought at Estrella) and I think
I can get enough sections out of it to make a long strip if I just can
figure out how wide to make it.

Most of my hat making instruction comes from the renaissance tailor's site
plus an article on making a leather hat with fur brim from a older Threads
magazine. I don't think it had how wide to make the fur strip for the brim
though, can anyone give me an idea how wide it should be.

It would be really nice to finish this hat after 3 or 4 years of on and off
working on it. My lord would be overjoyed to finally have his hat.

Kathws

Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [sig] Re: fur-lined items, construction basics


<<Clipped the rules>>

> Those are the basics. I never ever use land based furs
> for anything other that trim on low wear edges, hats
> or collars.
> 'dok

#10917

From: "Denis Kuianov" <denis_kuianov@...>
Date: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:33 pm
Subject: Where are the Russian pages?

denis_kuianov

Maybe I missed it, don't read every message, but were are the russian knowlege
pages on the freeservers site?

Denis Kuianov, Rolov syn.

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#10918

From: "Jennifer Nelson Kemp" <lady.ianuk@...>
Date: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:59 pm
Subject: Re: Re: fur-lined items

jln8817

The Topkapi Turkish Coats that were on display with the "Style and Status"
exhibit showed some linings (though most were worn away) that were either 1)
fully lined or 2) just the edges inside.  So you would have seen a bit of
fun peaking at the collar and the front closures of the coat.  The most fur
I tend to wear is my little fur cap as kinda seen in Sofyia's drawings.  It
was a hand me down from my grandmother and looks very rus in our warm
Arizona winters.

I was also given the mink car cape and have been toying with the idea of
converting it to a liner but it is so nicely made...and its rather warm here
too.

Posadnitsa Ianuk

#10919

From: "Jennifer Nelson Kemp" <lady.ianuk@...>
Date: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:09 pm
Subject: Re: fur hat help needed was: fur-lined items, construction basics

jln8817

I usually use about a 3" fur band on large hats and a 2" fur band on small
hats.  It all depends on if the fur is supposed to cover your ears or not.
But it really does depend on the style of hat.  Most of ours are 6 panel
"beanies" with fur trim.

Posadnitsa Ianuk

#10920

From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
Date: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:49 pm
Subject: Re: fur hat help needed was: fur-lined items, construction basics

mordakus

Is that one of the infamous $90 hats I've heard about
from the Estrella War? If so, I've made deliveries on
6 for people who were there and consider $35 a real
steal in comparison. Never been but now I loe that
war.
'dok

--- Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...> wrote:

> I usually use about a 3" fur band on large hats and
> a 2" fur band on small
> hats.  It all depends on if the fur is supposed to
> cover your ears or not.
> But it really does depend on the style of hat.  Most
> of ours are 6 panel
> "beanies" with fur trim.
>
> Posadnitsa Ianuk
>
>
>
>
>

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#10921

From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
Date: Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:32 pm
Subject: Re: fur hat help needed was: fur-lined items, construction basics

mordakus

Speaking of which, I'm about to make some more next
week....

--- Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:

> Is that one of the infamous $90 hats I've heard
> about
> from the Estrella War? If so, I've made deliveries
> on
> 6 for people who were there and consider $35 a real
> steal in comparison. Never been but now I loe that
> war.
> 'dok
>
> --- Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...>
> wrote:
>
> > I usually use about a 3" fur band on large hats
> and
> > a 2" fur band on small
> > hats.  It all depends on if the fur is supposed to
> > cover your ears or not.
> > But it really does depend on the style of hat.
> Most
> > of ours are 6 panel
> > "beanies" with fur trim.
> >
> > Posadnitsa Ianuk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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#10922

From: Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...>
Date: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: fur-lined items

sengokudaimyo

'doc wrote:

> Actually, I've converted 4 fur coats into period
> shubas and taught a class in the same at Pennsic
> twice...I could send you a copy of my class manual and
> answer any questions that you have? If so, I bet
> theres very little that Soraya, Anastasiia or Sofya
> can't answer....feel free to ask! BTW, I love my shuba
> an I am currently starting to also convert a "mink"
> coat into a shuba for my lady. It started out life as
> a group of muskrats but that was very popular in the
> 40's and 50's when most of these coats first started
> hanging in Gandma/Aunt Ethel/ etc. closet.

Hey, guy! How the heck ya doin'?

Got a Q for you on shuba-fication. Lined shuba are a well
and good for colder weather and wintery events -- but what
about Pennsic? It's hell trying to do cold-weather-people
garb for a hot-weather-people place.

Of course, on Pennsic *evenings* all bets are off and a
lined shuba would be spiff...

Effingham
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo

#10923

From: "Justin \(ska Iustin Branov\)" <jm_griffing@...>
Date: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:05 pm
Subject: Re: Where are the Russian pages?

jm_griffing

Kristos voskrese!

Freeservers deleted them.  I am awaiting their
transferral to my possession so I can stick them up on
another site and take over upkeep of them.  Once they
are up again, I'll post the site here.

Iustin

--- Denis Kuianov <denis_kuianov@...> wrote:

> Maybe I missed it, don't read every message, but
> were are the russian knowlege pages on the
> freeservers site?
>
> Denis Kuianov, Rolov syn.
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
>
> Search for businesses by name, location, or phone
> number.  -Lycos Yellow Pages
>
>
http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC\
=lycos10
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Yahoo: jm_griffing
AIM: JMGriffingIM

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#10924

From: "Patricia Hefner" <verte76@...>
Date: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:02 pm
Subject: Re: Where are the Russian pages?

isabelle76_2001

They got deleted. I have to remove the link from the Czech/Moravian/Slovak
knowledge page, which I maintain. I have about a thousand mundane distractions.
<sigh>

   Isabelle de Foix
   Maybe I missed it, don't read every message, but were are the russian knowlege
pages on the freeservers site?

   Denis Kuianov, Rolov syn.

   --
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#10925

From: "Jennifer Nelson Kemp" <lady.ianuk@...>
Date: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:28 pm
Subject: Re: fur hat help needed was: fur-lined items, construction basics

jln8817

Uhm...I'm not a merchant...I know the ones you speak of and honestly, I was
not impressed...especially since most were sheepskin trimmed versus actual
fur.

For my husband's laurelling hat we searched all over pennsic and found a
beautiful red fox that looked like he'd been in an artice climate (lots of
white throughout).  It has/had enough fur for 3-4 hats and usually the
wool/silk we use for the tops is scrap from things we've already made.  My
only suggestion on making the hats, collars etc is that you put it on a
fabric backing because 1) it helps with sewing it onto the hat and 2) you
can remove and wash the hat proper if needed.

If this link works you can kinda see the hat I am speaking of..though I
think he used almost 4" for the trim...just to make it fluffy.
http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos1520/2/79/83/42/60/9/960428379203_0_ALB.jpg

Posadnitsa Ianuk

On 4/27/06, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:
>
> Is that one of the infamous $90 hats I've heard about
> from the Estrella War? If so, I've made deliveries on
> 6 for people who were there and consider $35 a real
> steal in comparison. Never been but now I loe that
> war.
> 'dok
>
>
> --- Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...> wrote:
>
> > I usually use about a 3" fur band on large hats and
> > a 2" fur band on small
> > hats.  It all depends on if the fur is supposed to
> > cover your ears or not.
> > But it really does depend on the style of hat.  Most
> > of ours are 6 panel
> > "beanies" with fur trim.
> >
> > Posadnitsa Ianuk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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#10926

From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>
Date: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:00 pm
Subject: Re: fur-lined items

Seonaid13

> Got a Q for you on shuba-fication. Lined shuba are a
> well  and good for colder weather and wintery
>events -- but what about Pennsic? It's hell trying to
>do cold-weather-people
> garb for a hot-weather-people place.

Not remotely 'Dok (but aiming for his level of
garb-spiffiness) :D  but tossing in 2 rubles...

I have found that even three layers of linen has been
fine for hot HOT weather.  GNEW in the East last year
was Obscenely Hot, and I hung out in the sun on the
archery field for hours in 3 layers of linen,
longsleeved and all. Plus headgear (povoinik and straw
hat).   From my reading, Shubas do not necessarily
have to be fur lined.  The trick is Natural Fibers.
Lightweight linen breaths really really nicely.  A
simple shirt under a linen, linen-lined Shuba,
assuming the linen is lightweight, should be fine.
[Disclaimer: I personally am pretty good w/ extremes
of temperature, in general]

--Sfandra



******************
Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova
Kingdom of the East
******************
Never 'pearl' your butt.

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#10927

From: "Rick Orli" <orlirva@...>
Date: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:59 pm
Subject: Re: fur-lined items

orlirva

I beg to differ, none of the S&S coats were fur "just the edges
inside"!!!
And let me add a few more !!!!!!!!!!! for good measure. They just did
not do that.
and none of the linings were  'worn away".
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/OttomanPatterns.htm
has my drawings and notes.
-Rick
  --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer Nelson Kemp" <lady.ianuk@...>
wrote:
>
> The Topkapi Turkish Coats that were on display with the "Style and
Status"
> exhibit showed some linings (though most were worn away) that were
either 1)
> fully lined or 2) just the edges inside.  So you would have seen a
bit of
> fun peaking at the collar and the front closures of the coat.

#10928

From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
Date: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:03 pm
Subject: Re: fur-lined items

mordakus

Hi There! It has been a while! I usually do Turkish
with a fur edged coat, complete with inner lining down
the front! I'm helping a local guy do one right now!
     So, lets catch up offlist.....I've got w wild tale
for you, my friend!
'dok

--- Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:

> 'doc wrote:
>
> > Actually, I've converted 4 fur coats into period
> > shubas and taught a class in the same at Pennsic
> > twice...I could send you a copy of my class manual
> and
> > answer any questions that you have? If so, I bet
> > theres very little that Soraya, Anastasiia or
> Sofya
> > can't answer....feel free to ask! BTW, I love my
> shuba
> > an I am currently starting to also convert a
> "mink"
> > coat into a shuba for my lady. It started out life
> as
> > a group of muskrats but that was very popular in
> the
> > 40's and 50's when most of these coats first
> started
> > hanging in Gandma/Aunt Ethel/ etc. closet.
>
>
> Hey, guy! How the heck ya doin'?
>
> Got a Q for you on shuba-fication. Lined shuba are a
> well
> and good for colder weather and wintery events --
> but what
> about Pennsic? It's hell trying to do
> cold-weather-people
> garb for a hot-weather-people place.
>
> Of course, on Pennsic *evenings* all bets are off
> and a
> lined shuba would be spiff...
>
> Effingham
> --
>
> Anthony J. Bryant
> Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
>
> Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
> http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html
>
> All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
> http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
>
>
>


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#10929

From: "Lente" <lente@...>
Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:30 am
Subject: Re: fur hat help needed was: fur-lined items, construction basics

threeravenbirds

no, I have a friend who has one of the Estrella war mongol hats from the
craft felt, but she's badly allegic to wool so can't wear a real wool hat.
Can't handle wool in any fashion even has to check lotions for lanolin.

I made this hat myself from wool I felted in a A&S collegium class (making a
felted wool mongol hat), its just taken me this long to finish it, that's
including, resewing a seam when I found out I was suppose to handsew not
machine sew it, covred all the seams with red wool yarn to hide the machine
sewing (seams are to the outside), made a lucet cord out of the red yarn to
make a chinese knot for the top point, inserted a red cotton lining by hand
after making the wool portion and realizing that it was driving my lord
nuts, and now I am stumped on putting on the cuff. I have the fur I have
read several articles on how to sew seams but I just can't figure out how
wide the cuff should be.

Okay after reading all the above I realize this hat made me way too crazy,
now to just finish the stupid thing.

Now by a large hat do you mean large head size or a tall hat?

kathws

Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [sig] fur hat help needed was: fur-lined items, construction
basics

> Is that one of the infamous $90 hats I've heard about
> from the Estrella War? If so, I've made deliveries on
> 6 for people who were there and consider $35 a real
> steal in comparison. Never been but now I loe that
> war.
> 'dok
>
> --- Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...> wrote:
>
>> I usually use about a 3" fur band on large hats and
>> a 2" fur band on small
>> hats.  It all depends on if the fur is supposed to
>> cover your ears or not.
>> But it really does depend on the style of hat.  Most
>> of ours are 6 panel
>> "beanies" with fur trim.
>>
>> Posadnitsa Ianuk

#10930

From: "Marilyn" <MamaLynx@...>
Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:40 am
Subject: Re: Illumination

panimarijah

Regarding Illumination:
I have placed some Eastern European Illumination  links you may find of
interest on this page:
http://www.zadruga-kotok.org/IlluminationResources.html

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#10931

From: "Jennifer Nelson Kemp" <lady.ianuk@...>
Date: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:40 pm
Subject: Re: fur-lined items

jln8817

Living in AZ I tend to use linen and tropical weight wool which I have taken
to pennsic and just adored.  Though I probably wouldn't do the fur since it
doesn't "breath" like wool and well, we usually go to pennsic by airplane
and that is a lot of bulk.  If you want to try it I would say use a light
weight, but sturdy, fabric for the exterior.

Posadnitsa Ianuk

#10932

From: "raelee" <raelee@...>
Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:17 am
Subject: illuminations/miniatures online

rachelsampsel

This is another source that I have found very helpful.  The Treasures of
Mount Athos.  You can't get really close to the pictures, but they are very
nice and span a wide range of time, style and media.

http://www.culture.gr/2/21/218/e21800.html


Patches

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#10933

From: "Jennifer Nelson Kemp" <lady.ianuk@...>
Date: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:37 pm
Subject: Re: Re: fur-lined items

jln8817

Wow, thanks for the dress down, I'm glad chivalry is not dead.

The coat I was specifiacally talking about you have photographs of (oh,
naughty you for photographing a moving exhibit).  The underside did not show
any fur more than a few inches past the openings and my statement of "worn
away" was meant to say that is what it looked like, even your pictures show
the "patches" of fur.  Admittedly, I'm sure the preservation of the coat
probably did nothing to help the fur but it did not in my opinion look to be
fully lined in fur.  Though most things with museum exhibits are open to
interpretation since they can't please everyone.  I will have look at the
discussion of the coat in the IPEK book to see.

Posadnitsa Ianuk

#10934

From: "Rick Orli" <orlirva@...>
Date: Mon May 1, 2006 5:07 am
Subject: Re: fur-lined items

orlirva

Sorry, but this is a persistent and serious misconception and it
needs to be driven into oblivion without weenie-wording.  I really
don't mind if people want to decorate their SCA garb with fur edging
but please let's not pretend that is how period garments were
constructed. Without exception there are no 'patches' of fur and the
garment in question and all the garments with fur visible anywhere
are fully fur lined.  Saying " did not show any fur more than a few
inches past the openings" may be literally true because of how the
garment was displayed but readers may misread your statement to mean
that you saw that the fur ended a few inches past the edge, which
you certainly did not.

I have asked the curator several specific questions, but the answer
to this one seems too obvious to call her about.  Maybe if I have
some other questions I'll also ask her if she ever saw deco-fur
edging on an ottoman garment.

While I allowed in an earlier post that maybe under some exceptional
circumstances a tailor might do a fake, and even recognize that all
fur colpacks are not fully fur lined which is sort of a fake, the
idea that robes that the Sultan might wear to a battlefield would
use this sort of flash trick is laughable.

Please remember that pre-20th C. people who went out-of-doors were
really no-kidding outside, with no hotels to bail to or even heated
restrooms to go to.  If it got cold it got cold. I absolutely reject
any suggestion that these were all some sort of pajama suit and
smoking jacket combo, that could be impractical and false-to-
putative-function.  I feel confident in suggesting that the sultan
always wanted to be perceived as a military leader, not a faker, so
beneath the pearls and gold you would always find a fully functional
garment.

-Rick

--- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer Nelson Kemp" <lady.ianuk@...>
wrote:
The underside did not show
> any fur more than a few inches past the openings and my statement
of "worn
> away" was meant to say that is what it looked like, even your
pictures show
> the "patches" of fur.  Admittedly, I'm sure the preservation of
the coat
> probably did nothing to help the fur but it did not in my opinion
look to be
> fully lined in fur.  Though most things with museum exhibits are
open to
> interpretation since they can't please everyone.  I will have look
at the
> discussion of the coat in the IPEK book to see.
>
> Posadnitsa Ianuk
>

#10935

From: "Alastair Millar (IOL)" <alastair@...>
Date: Mon May 1, 2006 12:07 pm
Subject: Charles IV in Prague... or not!

alastairmillar

The "Charles IV - Emperor by the Grace of God" exhibition previously at
the Met has moved to Prague, but don't bother trying to get to see it...

http://praguepost.com/P03/2006/Art/0427/news1.php

Nuff said. As an aside, Prague Castle shut down it's promotions
department (formerly responsible for managing such events) just after
Vaclav Klaus became president, giving some competent staff just a week's
notice to clear their desk. (I know, because I was at that time
providing them with translations.) This is the result, I guess...

Alastair

Alastair Millar BSc(Hons) - http://www.skriptorium.info
= Translation & consultancy for the heritage industry =

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#10936

From: sig@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon May 1, 2006 1:53 pm
Subject: File - FAQ.txt

sig@yahoogroups.com