Hi,

What are your feelings and thoughts about reciting Amida's name in a foreign
language?

To my mind, Amida Buddha means more than Amida Butsu.  When I recite the
Japanese nembutsu it requires more effort to be mindful of Amida than when I
say Namu Amida Buddha.  For some reason I don't have a problem with Namu,  I
can accept it as an abbreviation for "Adoration to" or other english wordings
but Butsu just doesn't conjure up anything like the power of Buddha (for me).


Does it matter if I change the Butsu to Buddha?



-A

Personally, I chant "Namah Amida Buddha" which is a
Sanskrit-Japanese-English hybrid mantra.

jim davis

--- Anon <now@...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> What are your feelings and thoughts about reciting
> Amida's name in a foreign
> language?
>
> To my mind, Amida Buddha means more than Amida
> Butsu.  When I recite the
> Japanese nembutsu it requires more effort to be
> mindful of Amida than when I
> say Namu Amida Buddha.  For some reason I don't have
> a problem with Namu,  I
> can accept it as an abbreviation for "Adoration to"
> or other english wordings
> but Butsu just doesn't conjure up anything like the
> power of Buddha (for me).
>
>
> Does it matter if I change the Butsu to Buddha?
>
>
>
> -A
>
>
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=====
Jim Davis author of
"Waking Up After a Night on the Town with the Mead of Inspiration & Eros
Insurgent"  (ISBN: 0595182135)

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Hi all,
in the Honganji, we all recite `Na-man-da-bu(tsu)`,
which is an abbreviation of the Name, try it, it can
be recited very fast.
Gassho,
Clifton

--- Shak El <from_alamut@...> wrote:
> Personally, I chant "Namah Amida Buddha" which is a
> Sanskrit-Japanese-English hybrid mantra.
>
> jim davis
>
> --- Anon <now@...> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > What are your feelings and thoughts about reciting
> > Amida's name in a foreign
> > language?
> >
> > To my mind, Amida Buddha means more than Amida
> > Butsu.  When I recite the
> > Japanese nembutsu it requires more effort to be
> > mindful of Amida than when I
> > say Namu Amida Buddha.  For some reason I don't
> have
> > a problem with Namu,  I
> > can accept it as an abbreviation for "Adoration
> to"
> > or other english wordings
> > but Butsu just doesn't conjure up anything like
> the
> > power of Buddha (for me).
> >
> >
> > Does it matter if I change the Butsu to Buddha?
> >
> >
> >
> > -A
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > shinlist-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Jim Davis author of
> "Waking Up After a Night on the Town with the Mead
> of Inspiration & Eros Insurgent"  (ISBN: 0595182135)
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
>


=====
Gassho,
Clifton Ong (Shaku Do Tatsu)

Email: sanath_sg@...

Homepage: http://honganmission.cjb.net/

__________________________________________________
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>Hi,
>
>What are your feelings and thoughts about reciting Amida's name in a foreign
>language?
>
>To my mind, Amida Buddha means more than Amida Butsu.  When I recite the
>Japanese nembutsu it requires more effort to be mindful of Amida than when I
>say Namu Amida Buddha.  For some reason I don't have a problem with Namu,  I
>can accept it as an abbreviation for "Adoration to" or other english wordings
>but Butsu just doesn't conjure up anything like the power of Buddha (for me).
>
>
>Does it matter if I change the Butsu to Buddha?

Dear A,
It doesn't make a particle of difference. There are innumerable
nembutsus. The one you are comfortable with is the "right" one.
gassho,
Rick
(Shaku Egen)

thanks to all for the response to the question about
wording of the nembutsu, how about initiation
ceremonies?  I recently reread "River of Fire..." and
"Shinran's Gospel of Pure Grace" and got the impression
conversion might be considered a particularly significant
event which might also be symbolically noted in a
ceremony in Jodo Shinshu.  Any truth to that?  Is such a
ceremony necessary?  Is there a reason to be an official
member of a Shinshu organization?

thanks again to all,

-A

I just read "Naturalness: A Classic of Shin Buddhism" by
Kenryo Kanamatsu (which I enjoyed very much and highly
recommend btw) in which he implies the story of Amida in
the 3 Pure Land Sutras is a myth or written in the "language
of dream" or words to that effect.  Are the sutras then a
mere symbol of a reality we are unable to describe directly?
What does that make Amida to you personally?  I like the
idea (my own speculation) the pure land symbolizes  our
already enlightened Buddha nature which we are
temporarily unable to recognize because of erroneous
beliefs to the contrary.  It is these wrong beliefs which
make up our "sinful" ego-centric delusions.  In this view,
relying on Amida is equal to relying on our own original but
as yet unrealized Buddha nature.  Is this anything at all like
orthodox Jodo Shinshu interpretation?

all the best,

-A

>thanks to all for the response to the question about
>wording of the nembutsu, how about initiation
>ceremonies?  I recently reread "River of Fire..." and
>"Shinran's Gospel of Pure Grace" and got the impression
>conversion might be considered a particularly significant
>event which might also be symbolically noted in a
>ceremony in Jodo Shinshu.  Any truth to that?  Is such a
>ceremony necessary?  Is there a reason to be an official
>member of a Shinshu organization?
>
>thanks again to all,
>
>-A

Dear A,
Jodo Shinshu isn't about "conversion" per se. The central phenomenon
or experience in one's life in the nembutsu is shinjin, the awakening
to the mind of endowed trust in Amida Buddha, which the nembutsu
represents. Jodo Shinshu is all about shinjin - forget everything
else. Ceremonies are fine, they are a way of symbolically saying to
ourselves (and in the presence of witnesses) how valuable the path of
nembutsu is to us, but the services themselves are meaningless. I
think of Shin ceremony as a bonding experience, not a religious
experience in the highest sense. Bonding, sangha, is good, but the
important thing is the inner change in our being called shinjin.
Prof. Shigaraki wrote about shinjin - here is what he wrote:
http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/2.html
gassho,
Rick
(Shaku Egen)
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MIT, Building E40-392a
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Fax: (617) 253-8013
email: stclair@...
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On Monday 06 May 2002 02:21, you wrote:
> Bonding, sangha, is good, but the
> important thing is the inner change in our being called shinjin.
> Prof. Shigaraki wrote about shinjin - here is what he wrote:
> http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/2.html
>

thanks for the link, I enjoyed reading it and many other articles (mostly
from the living dharma site).  I particularly liked the ones by Dr. Nobuo
Haneda.  Can you tell me how he's considered by the orthodox Shinshu people?
Many things he says are very appealing to me and I would be encouraged if
this were typical of Jodo Shinshu.

and now, a nice story about my wife hearing the call of Amida just last
night...

My wife had been laughing about Shin Buddhism because it reminded her of
Christianity (which she was raised in but is now bitter about).  So I
reminded her of the feeling I think we all have about our most complete
happiness being dependent or at least connected to the happiness of others. I
told her Amida was the symbol of this desire of good for others and this
desire was innately present in all good people of all times (and all people
potentially).  Every good person wants us to be happy so we can all share a
more complete happiness.  In this way our greatest happiness is not selfish
at all because it completes the happiness of others and it is something we in
turn would wish to share, even give away (if we could).  Well, be darned if
she doesn't just get it totally and becomes really excited (tears of joy
welling up in her eyes, etc.).  "there", I says, "you've heard the call of
Amida" and we both start laughing with tears in our eyes.  "we should
remember this everyday", she says and then adds, "but I guess that's what the
nembutsu's for, huh"

and yet another nice story from this very evening...

I was having a nap and as I slowly drifted back to consciousness I was very
happy and reciting the nembutsu in my mind kind of automatically I guess.  I
thought I was awake but I couldn't have been because I was noticing the nice
bright ceiling (which is just ordinary off-white really) turn into a field of
golden light (like the blue sky except gold).  It was very pleasant but
doesn't mean anything (far as I know) although the Pure Land *is* supposed to
be gold colored isn't it?    :-)   whatever...


I've been enjoying my reading (about Shin Buddhism) and reciting the nembutsu
so much I'm considering phoning up the local "Buddhist Church" (Jodo Shinshu
orientation I think) to check it out but I'm shy about not understanding
Japanese and being out of place culturally.  I know completely zero about
Jodo Shinshu in North America (or Japan for that matter).  Can anyone give me
some advice about making the "cold call"?  Is the North American "Buddhist
Church" really open to non-Japanese people?  email me directly (off list) if
you like..

all the best to you,

-A.

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Hi Anon,
if i am not wrong, Dr Haneda is one of the
contemporary Shin scholars and a leading one at that,
but i cannot remember which Honganji (Nishi or
Higashi) he is affiliated to, no difference anyway.
Which BCA church are you located near to, most of them
are now quite open to Non-Japanese joining them at
their services, and now the BCA has an official
website at http://ww.buddhistchurchesofamerica.org. Go
check it out!
I`m now studying at a Honganji-affiliated University
(Ryukoku University) in which there lies alot of Shin
material! Wonderful, i just finished reading Rev
Kenneth Tanaka`s book - OCEAN, Shin Buddhism in North
America. It is a very insightful book and explains
Shin Buddhism in a very simple and concise manner,
definetly a book i would recommend.
Instead of calling the Church, why don`t you go down
to one of their regular Sunday services to have a
look, who knows what type of `Go-En` you will have. Do
give it a try! Good luck!
Gassho,
Clifton

PS, i`ve met a few BCA and Hawaii kyodan members here
at Honzan, and they are very nice, so it should be
quite a good experience, though i think you might have
to get used to the `Japanessness` of the
temple/church.


--- Anon <now@...> wrote:
> On Monday 06 May 2002 02:21, you wrote:
> > Bonding, sangha, is good, but the
> > important thing is the inner change in our being
> called shinjin.
> > Prof. Shigaraki wrote about shinjin - here is what
> he wrote:
> > http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/2.html
> >
>
> thanks for the link, I enjoyed reading it and many
> other articles (mostly
> from the living dharma site).  I particularly liked
> the ones by Dr. Nobuo
> Haneda.  Can you tell me how he's considered by the
> orthodox Shinshu people?
> Many things he says are very appealing to me and I
> would be encouraged if
> this were typical of Jodo Shinshu.
>
> and now, a nice story about my wife hearing the call
> of Amida just last
> night...
>
> My wife had been laughing about Shin Buddhism
> because it reminded her of
> Christianity (which she was raised in but is now
> bitter about).  So I
> reminded her of the feeling I think we all have
> about our most complete
> happiness being dependent or at least connected to
> the happiness of others. I
> told her Amida was the symbol of this desire of good
> for others and this
> desire was innately present in all good people of
> all times (and all people
> potentially).  Every good person wants us to be
> happy so we can all share a
> more complete happiness.  In this way our greatest
> happiness is not selfish
> at all because it completes the happiness of others
> and it is something we in
> turn would wish to share, even give away (if we
> could).  Well, be darned if
> she doesn't just get it totally and becomes really
> excited (tears of joy
> welling up in her eyes, etc.).  "there", I says,
> "you've heard the call of
> Amida" and we both start laughing with tears in our
> eyes.  "we should
> remember this everyday", she says and then adds,
> "but I guess that's what the
> nembutsu's for, huh"
>
> and yet another nice story from this very evening...
>
> I was having a nap and as I slowly drifted back to
> consciousness I was very
> happy and reciting the nembutsu in my mind kind of
> automatically I guess.  I
> thought I was awake but I couldn't have been because
> I was noticing the nice
> bright ceiling (which is just ordinary off-white
> really) turn into a field of
> golden light (like the blue sky except gold).  It
> was very pleasant but
> doesn't mean anything (far as I know) although the
> Pure Land *is* supposed to
> be gold colored isn't it?    :-)   whatever...
>
>
> I've been enjoying my reading (about Shin Buddhism)
> and reciting the nembutsu
> so much I'm considering phoning up the local
> "Buddhist Church" (Jodo Shinshu
> orientation I think) to check it out but I'm shy
> about not understanding
> Japanese and being out of place culturally.  I know
> completely zero about
> Jodo Shinshu in North America (or Japan for that
> matter).  Can anyone give me
> some advice about making the "cold call"?  Is the
> North American "Buddhist
> Church" really open to non-Japanese people?  email
> me directly (off list) if
> you like..
>
> all the best to you,
>
> -A.
>
>


=====
Gassho,
Clifton Ong (Shaku Do Tatsu)

Email: sanath_sg@...

Homepage: http://honganmission.cjb.net/

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
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Hi all,
please take note of the spelling error, the URL should
be http://www.buddhistchurchesofamerica.org instead.
Gassho,
Clifton

--- Clifton Ong <sanath_sg@...> wrote:
> Hi Anon,
> if i am not wrong, Dr Haneda is one of the
> contemporary Shin scholars and a leading one at
> that,
> but i cannot remember which Honganji (Nishi or
> Higashi) he is affiliated to, no difference anyway.
> Which BCA church are you located near to, most of
> them
> are now quite open to Non-Japanese joining them at
> their services, and now the BCA has an official
> website at http://ww.buddhistchurchesofamerica.org.
> Go
> check it out!
> I`m now studying at a Honganji-affiliated University
> (Ryukoku University) in which there lies alot of
> Shin
> material! Wonderful, i just finished reading Rev
> Kenneth Tanaka`s book - OCEAN, Shin Buddhism in
> North
> America. It is a very insightful book and explains
> Shin Buddhism in a very simple and concise manner,
> definetly a book i would recommend.
> Instead of calling the Church, why don`t you go down
> to one of their regular Sunday services to have a
> look, who knows what type of `Go-En` you will have.
> Do
> give it a try! Good luck!
> Gassho,
> Clifton
>
> PS, i`ve met a few BCA and Hawaii kyodan members
> here
> at Honzan, and they are very nice, so it should be
> quite a good experience, though i think you might
> have
> to get used to the `Japanessness` of the
> temple/church.
>
>
> --- Anon <now@...> wrote:
> > On Monday 06 May 2002 02:21, you wrote:
> > > Bonding, sangha, is good, but the
> > > important thing is the inner change in our being
> > called shinjin.
> > > Prof. Shigaraki wrote about shinjin - here is
> what
> > he wrote:
> > > http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/2.html
> > >
> >
> > thanks for the link, I enjoyed reading it and many
> > other articles (mostly
> > from the living dharma site).  I particularly
> liked
> > the ones by Dr. Nobuo
> > Haneda.  Can you tell me how he's considered by
> the
> > orthodox Shinshu people?
> > Many things he says are very appealing to me and I
> > would be encouraged if
> > this were typical of Jodo Shinshu.
> >
> > and now, a nice story about my wife hearing the
> call
> > of Amida just last
> > night...
> >
> > My wife had been laughing about Shin Buddhism
> > because it reminded her of
> > Christianity (which she was raised in but is now
> > bitter about).  So I
> > reminded her of the feeling I think we all have
> > about our most complete
> > happiness being dependent or at least connected to
> > the happiness of others. I
> > told her Amida was the symbol of this desire of
> good
> > for others and this
> > desire was innately present in all good people of
> > all times (and all people
> > potentially).  Every good person wants us to be
> > happy so we can all share a
> > more complete happiness.  In this way our greatest
> > happiness is not selfish
> > at all because it completes the happiness of
> others
> > and it is something we in
> > turn would wish to share, even give away (if we
> > could).  Well, be darned if
> > she doesn't just get it totally and becomes really
> > excited (tears of joy
> > welling up in her eyes, etc.).  "there", I says,
> > "you've heard the call of
> > Amida" and we both start laughing with tears in
> our
> > eyes.  "we should
> > remember this everyday", she says and then adds,
> > "but I guess that's what the
> > nembutsu's for, huh"
> >
> > and yet another nice story from this very
> evening...
> >
> > I was having a nap and as I slowly drifted back to
> > consciousness I was very
> > happy and reciting the nembutsu in my mind kind of
> > automatically I guess.  I
> > thought I was awake but I couldn't have been
> because
> > I was noticing the nice
> > bright ceiling (which is just ordinary off-white
> > really) turn into a field of
> > golden light (like the blue sky except gold).  It
> > was very pleasant but
> > doesn't mean anything (far as I know) although the
> > Pure Land *is* supposed to
> > be gold colored isn't it?    :-)   whatever...
> >
> >
> > I've been enjoying my reading (about Shin
> Buddhism)
> > and reciting the nembutsu
> > so much I'm considering phoning up the local
> > "Buddhist Church" (Jodo Shinshu
> > orientation I think) to check it out but I'm shy
> > about not understanding
> > Japanese and being out of place culturally.  I
> know
> > completely zero about
> > Jodo Shinshu in North America (or Japan for that
> > matter).  Can anyone give me
> > some advice about making the "cold call"?  Is the
> > North American "Buddhist
> > Church" really open to non-Japanese people?  email
> > me directly (off list) if
> > you like..
> >
> > all the best to you,
> >
> > -A.
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Gassho,
> Clifton Ong (Shaku Do Tatsu)
>
> Email: sanath_sg@...
>
> Homepage: http://honganmission.cjb.net/
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>


=====
Gassho,
Clifton Ong (Shaku Do Tatsu)

Email: sanath_sg@...

Homepage: http://honganmission.cjb.net/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Hi -A,
yes i really liked the `River of Fire, River of
Water`, i was reading a little of the `Gospel` but had
to return to the university libary as it was overdue,
can`t borrow it until later.
In a sense, Conversion here means when we really know
ourselves as poor lowly beings (bonpu), we have a
turn-of-heart (Denshin) and Entrust ourselves to the
Power of Amida Buddha`s Primal Vow.
Well, in terms of ceremony, i am not sure but maybe
the Kikyoshiki or Refuge Ceremony could be considered
a conversion ceremony? That is when you officially
state that you wish to become a member of the Nenbutsu
community.
There are reasons why one should be an official member
of a Shinshu congregation, but one of the few reasons
i personally think is that the temples/churches will
be able to nurture you in the Nenbutsu as it is a
place to `Monpo` - hear the Dharma, which is very
central in Shin Buddhism.
Gassho,
Clifton

--- now@... wrote:
> thanks to all for the response to the question about
>
> wording of the nembutsu, how about initiation
> ceremonies?  I recently reread "River of Fire..."
> and
> "Shinran's Gospel of Pure Grace" and got the
> impression
> conversion might be considered a particularly
> significant
> event which might also be symbolically noted in a
> ceremony in Jodo Shinshu.  Any truth to that?  Is
> such a
> ceremony necessary?  Is there a reason to be an
> official
> member of a Shinshu organization?
>
> thanks again to all,
>
> -A
>


=====
Gassho,
Clifton Ong (Shaku Do Tatsu)

Email: sanath_sg@...

Homepage: http://honganmission.cjb.net/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Hi -A,
reading Rev Kenneth Tanaka`s book - OCEAN, he also
states that the story of the Pure Land is interpreted
as a myth by some scholars, but i`d like to disagree.
One reason is that when Shakamuni Buddha taught about
the Pure Land, he was in a state of Samadhi or Clear
Meditation. Beside, Zendo Daishi (Shan-Dao), the 5
Patriach of Shin Buddhism and an important Chinese
Pure Land Master, also wrote many of his important
works after he had a vision of the Pure Land, in that
sense, the Pure Land was visualized in states of clear
mentality, so it should not be taken as a myth. But
the way it is described could be the Buddha`s way of
describing it in a form that humans could readily
understand (ie the Golden trees, lakes, etc etc).
I cannot really agree with the last point about the
already-enlightened nature. That stance you put is
taught much in other schools of Buddhism, esp Zen and
Tendai, but in Shin, we are still Bonpu, Unenlightened
Lowly Beings. There is no way we can rely on our own
defiled nature, and that is exactly why we Entrust
ourselves to the Vow Power of Amida Buddha.
Gassho,
Clifton

--- now@... wrote:
> I just read "Naturalness: A Classic of Shin
> Buddhism" by
> Kenryo Kanamatsu (which I enjoyed very much and
> highly
> recommend btw) in which he implies the story of
> Amida in
> the 3 Pure Land Sutras is a myth or written in the
> "language
> of dream" or words to that effect.  Are the sutras
> then a
> mere symbol of a reality we are unable to describe
> directly?
> What does that make Amida to you personally?  I like
> the
> idea (my own speculation) the pure land symbolizes
> our
> already enlightened Buddha nature which we are
> temporarily unable to recognize because of erroneous
>
> beliefs to the contrary.  It is these wrong beliefs
> which
> make up our "sinful" ego-centric delusions.  In this
> view,
> relying on Amida is equal to relying on our own
> original but
> as yet unrealized Buddha nature.  Is this anything
> at all like
> orthodox Jodo Shinshu interpretation?
>
> all the best,
>
> -A
>


=====
Gassho,
Clifton Ong (Shaku Do Tatsu)

Email: sanath_sg@...

Homepage: http://honganmission.cjb.net/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Hi Clifton (and all),

>I cannot really agree with the last point about the
>already-enlightened nature. That stance you put is
>taught much in other schools of Buddhism, esp Zen and
>Tendai, but in Shin, we are still Bonpu, Unenlightened
>Lowly Beings. There is no way we can rely on our own
>defiled nature, and that is exactly why we Entrust
>ourselves to the Vow Power of Amida Buddha.
>

"we" as we are imagined or conceived to be are certainly
Bonpu and relying on that self is the disaster we see on the
news every day.  The mystery which surrounds us in which
we live, move and have our being is more like the
enlightened nature I had in mind.  There is no way to think
this one or grasp it but we are never outside it either.  I just
read D.T.Suzuki equate this mystery beyond the limit of the
intellect with the Original Vow to which we must ultimately
entrust ourselves unconditionally.  I agree completely
because what else can we do?

I'm at work now so really must go.  I'm very happy to hear
from you Clifton.  Thanks for your help...

all the best to you!

-A

>Hi all,
>please take note of the spelling error, the URL should
>be http://www.buddhistchurchesofamerica.org instead.
>Gassho,
>Clifton

The BCA website is ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC. Not a word
about the Nembutsu, or Amida Buddha, or Shinran. Just
a pale description of the organization of the BCA and
a few links. Nothing even remotely suggesting outreach.
This is a DISGRACE.
gassho,
Shaku Egen

>Hi -A,
>reading Rev Kenneth Tanaka`s book - OCEAN, he also
>states that the story of the Pure Land is interpreted
>as a myth by some scholars, but i`d like to disagree.....
>I cannot really agree with the last point about the
>already-enlightened nature. That stance you put is
>taught much in other schools of Buddhism, esp Zen and
>Tendai, but in Shin, we are still Bonpu, Unenlightened
>Lowly Beings. There is no way we can rely on our own
>defiled nature, and that is exactly why we Entrust
>ourselves to the Vow Power of Amida Buddha.
>Gassho,
>Clifton

Excellent point, Clifton. I find the belief that we all
have Buddhas inside us just waiting to wake up to be
a massive delusion. I think the name for that belief
is "original enlightenment" or "hongaku". I'm weak
on my terms here so bear with me. You are right about
us being bombu, unenlightened, and thus necessary for
our total entrusting in Amida's vow power. This is the
crux of Jodo Shinshu.
in gassho,
Shaku Egen
(Rick S.)

Dear Richard,
>You are right about
>us being bombu, unenlightened, and thus necessary for
>our total entrusting in Amida's vow power. This is the
>crux of Jodo Shinshu.

would you please share what you feel Amida's vow power is? Is Amida a symbol
(for you) or something like an objectively existing divine savior figure like
Jesus Christ? You mentioned original buddha nature being a massive delusion
and I feel this might be too harsh a judgement about many of the greatest
figures
in Mahayana Buddhism. The question for Shin (I think) is how to equate vow power
with our original buddha nature and not just to deny that nature. You might
consider what Dr.Nabuo Haneda is getting at here when he describes the
experience
and  insight of a Shin Reverend Akegarasu...

<<<< Akegarasu's deepest shout was not "O, Buddha!" It was "O, myself!" It was
a shout gushing out of his life itself. He says that this shout was the voice
of Amida. He realized that Amida was actually his own "Basic Desire." It was
by discovering Amida within himself, by feeling its power within himself, that
he could experience liberation. This, he says, is the true meaning of what
Shinran
teaches as "liberation through the power of the Basic Desire."

If we ask Rev. Akegarasu, "What is Amida for you?," I believe that he would
answer that Amida took two forms in his life: first, Amida took the form of
his teacher Kiyozawa - an external voice that challenged Akegarasu; second,
he took the form of the "Basic Desire" - Akegarasu's own inner voice that gushed
out of himself. >>>>

I'd be interested in your comments. Does the above represent "massive delusion"
to you? You can read the whole article on the Living Dharma site linked on your
site -- it's called Hongan (or something like that).

best regards,

-A.

Hi,

I have trouble believing Sakyamuni said the things attributed to him in the
Pure Land Sutras and think it far more likely the Sutras were authored by
unknown Mahayanists three hundred years after he died. None the less, I have
even more trouble with my own efforts to achieve enlightenment!

While it is doubtless true that all that is needed is to "discard the deluded
mind of calculation"  this seems completely impossible for "ME" to do as the
very effort would be premised on and inspired by the exact thing to be
discarded.  Somehow something besides me and my effort must accomplish what I
cannot and I have no doubt the Primal Vow has accomplished this for
generations of Shin Buddhists.

I want the same thing but wonder how their faith is possible for me when, as
Dr. Haneda puts it, "...Amida is a fictional character like Hamlet or Faust.
[...] Since Amida is a fictional character, he is (1) *not* a god (or divine
being) and (2) *not* a historical person."

How, I wonder, can a "fictional character" DO anything whatsoever?
It seems necessary for poor fools like myself to be able to believe Amida
symbolizes something real AND capable of functioning AS IF it were a divine
being like Amida.  I read today Shinran considers the details of Amida and
the Pure Land as being "expedient"  while the "true" form is identical with
the absolute, described variously in Buddhism as emptiness, complete Nirvana,
Buddha-nature, the unconditioned, the immeasurable, the inconceivable, etc.

Terrific!  I can't get started with absurdly large lotus petals but "the
unconditioned" and "the inconceivable" sound very promising (to me).

Assuming the inconceivable absolute is interested and capable of bringing
about my salvation I would have liked to take the assumed offer on faith but
still doubted I had the REAL faith.  Lucky for me and as I understand it,
Shinran defines the real faith as being without definition (Gi naki o gi to
su) and I breathed a sigh of relief.  If the required faith is not defined
then my compulsively doubting analytical mind has nothing to vivisect and the
working of my salvation can proceed unhindered (by that doubting mind).

I therefore resign myself to the hopefully merciful ministrations of the
unknown absolute -- happy to no longer be my own problem.  If the absolute
(Amida) "saves" me that is very good, if not, there's nothing much I can do
anyway.  It might be worth a trip to hell just to not have to try to save
myself anymore!  :-)


-A.

Well, it`s still quite a new site so it probably would
be updated in the near future, anyway, the Honganji`s
Official webpage has got the teachings put inside it.
Let`s not be too harsh on them, OK?
Gassho,
Clifton

--- "Richard St. Clair" <stclair@...> wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >please take note of the spelling error, the URL
> should
> >be http://www.buddhistchurchesofamerica.org
> instead.
> >Gassho,
> >Clifton
>
> The BCA website is ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC. Not a word
> about the Nembutsu, or Amida Buddha, or Shinran.
> Just
> a pale description of the organization of the BCA
> and
> a few links. Nothing even remotely suggesting
> outreach.
> This is a DISGRACE.
> gassho,
> Shaku Egen
>


=====
Gassho,
Clifton Ong (Shaku Do Tatsu)

Email: sanath_sg@...

Homepage: http://honganmission.cjb.net/

__________________________________________________
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Hi Richard,
yes the term is Hongaku, `Original Enlightenment`, i
think there was a tract by either Kakunyo shonin,
Zonkaku shonin or Rennyo shonin on this issue. If i
remember clearly, the Tannisho (unfortunately i cant
remember exactly which chapter, but i know it was one
of the later chapters, prob 16/17) also brings up this
issue.
Gassho,
Clifton

--- "Richard St. Clair" <stclair@...> wrote:
> >Hi -A,
> >reading Rev Kenneth Tanaka`s book - OCEAN, he also
> >states that the story of the Pure Land is
> interpreted
> >as a myth by some scholars, but i`d like to
> disagree.....
> >I cannot really agree with the last point about the
> >already-enlightened nature. That stance you put is
> >taught much in other schools of Buddhism, esp Zen
> and
> >Tendai, but in Shin, we are still Bonpu,
> Unenlightened
> >Lowly Beings. There is no way we can rely on our
> own
> >defiled nature, and that is exactly why we Entrust
> >ourselves to the Vow Power of Amida Buddha.
> >Gassho,
> >Clifton
>
> Excellent point, Clifton. I find the belief that we
> all
> have Buddhas inside us just waiting to wake up to be
> a massive delusion. I think the name for that belief
> is "original enlightenment" or "hongaku". I'm weak
> on my terms here so bear with me. You are right
> about
> us being bombu, unenlightened, and thus necessary
> for
> our total entrusting in Amida's vow power. This is
> the
> crux of Jodo Shinshu.
> in gassho,
> Shaku Egen
> (Rick S.)
>


=====
Gassho,
Clifton Ong (Shaku Do Tatsu)

Email: sanath_sg@...

Homepage: http://honganmission.cjb.net/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
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>I just read "Naturalness: A Classic of Shin Buddhism" by
>Kenryo Kanamatsu (which I enjoyed very much and highly
>recommend btw) in which he implies the story of Amida in
>the 3 Pure Land Sutras is a myth or written in the "language
>of dream" or words to that effect.  Are the sutras then a
>mere symbol of a reality we are unable to describe directly?
>What does that make Amida to you personally?  I like the
>idea (my own speculation) the pure land symbolizes  our
>already enlightened Buddha nature which we are
>temporarily unable to recognize because of erroneous
>beliefs to the contrary.  It is these wrong beliefs which
>make up our "sinful" ego-centric delusions.  In this view,
>relying on Amida is equal to relying on our own original but
>as yet unrealized Buddha nature.  Is this anything at all like
>orthodox Jodo Shinshu interpretation?
>
>all the best,
>
>-A

I think you are right in saying that the sutras represent
a transcendent reality. I'm not sure about your pure land
as original enlightened buddha nature. I would prefer to
think of the pure land as shinjin, the mind of endowed
trust in Amida Buddha. As to whether it is "orthodox" Shin
interpretation, why fret over that - isn't it more important
what is meaningful to you now? Shinran said, "I follow the
words of my teacher, 'Just say the Nembutsu and be saved
by Amida'". That seems like the bottom line to me.
in gassho,
Richard
(Shaku Egen)

Hi everyone,

Following Clifton's suggestion, I noticed in K.Tanaka's
"Ocean" the idea that Amida is a personification of
Dharmakaya defined as interdependence.

I have no problem with this Amida at all.  When we bow to
this Amida are we not bowing to the whole universe and
are we not ourselves that universe which is bowing to
itself?

Somewhere T.S.Eliot says humility is an endless art (or
virtue or words to that effect) and this rings true to me.  If the
universe coalesced into a form with which to assess itself
what would that assessment be? Bowing!

Gassho!  Gassho!  Gassho!

very happy indeed,

-A

I just checked the T.S.Eliot quote.  It's so good in context I'm going to share
it with you...

==============================

Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession,
Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.

==============================

Gassho!

-A

>Hi everyone,
>
>Following Clifton's suggestion, I noticed in K.Tanaka's
>"Ocean" the idea that Amida is a personification of
>Dharmakaya defined as interdependence.
>
>I have no problem with this Amida at all.  When we bow to
>this Amida are we not bowing to the whole universe and
>are we not ourselves that universe which is bowing to
>itself?
>
>Somewhere T.S.Eliot says humility is an endless art (or
>virtue or words to that effect) and this rings true to me.  If the
>universe coalesced into a form with which to assess itself
>what would that assessment be? Bowing!
>
>Gassho!  Gassho!  Gassho!
>
>very happy indeed,
>
>-A

Dear A,
People like to try all sorts of "definitions" of who or
what Amida "is". The fact is, Amida is inconceivable,
beyond our limited minds and bonno, passion-blinded
natures. There is a great little booklet by Zuio Hisao
Inagaki titled "Amida the Infinite", which I just love.
It is accessible, direct, and I think profound. It is based
upon the 12 different "lights" attributed to Amida. You can
read it on-line at the Mugeko (Unhindered Light) web
site, at:

http://www.horai.asn.au/atiindex.htm

I hope you like it.
in gassho,
Rick S.
(Shaku Egen)

>I just checked the T.S.Eliot quote.  It's so good in context I'm
>going to share
>it with you...
>
>==============================
>
>Do not let me hear
>Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
>Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession,
>Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God.
>The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
>Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
>
>==============================
>
>Gassho!
>
>-A

I'm sure Shinran would agree. We in Shin talk about
ourselves as foolish beings. In comparison to the
infinite life and light of Amida, we are very little,
and our business in this life is, in the long run, paltry.
Yet we invest so much significance in our strivings.
This is the very reason why we are the object of
Amida's Great Compassion, because without it we
are hopelessly vain, confused, and lost.
in gassho,
Rick S.
(Shaku Egen)

>Hi,
>
>I have trouble believing Sakyamuni said the things attributed to him in the
>Pure Land Sutras and think it far more likely the Sutras were authored by
>unknown Mahayanists three hundred years after he died. None the less, I have
>even more trouble with my own efforts to achieve enlightenment!

That is wonderful to hear!

>While it is doubtless true that all that is needed is to "discard the deluded
>mind of calculation"  this seems completely impossible for "ME" to do as the
>very effort would be premised on and inspired by the exact thing to be
>discarded.  Somehow something besides me and my effort must
>accomplish what I cannot and I have no doubt the Primal Vow has
>accomplished this for
>generations of Shin Buddhists.

A,
You are right, we cannot calculate becoming uncalculating.
It is the deep conundrum of Shin Buddhism. As Ty Unno
recently said, the teaching of Shin Other Power comes
down to "I can do nothing." This is the existential moment
where we realize our powerlessness to attain enlightenment or
to even lead an enlightened life. Turning over our life to
the Other Power is none other than shinjin. It is that moment
that the Nembutsu becomes truly real for us.

>I want the same thing but wonder how their faith is possible for me when, as
>Dr. Haneda puts it, "...Amida is a fictional character like Hamlet or Faust.
>[...] Since Amida is a fictional character, he is (1) *not* a god (or divine
>being) and (2) *not* a historical person."
>
>How, I wonder, can a "fictional character" DO anything whatsoever?

Unfortunately not everything Shin scholars and priests
say and write is accurate or helpful. We are all foolish beings.
We must never lose sight of that fact.
An attempt to dismiss Amida as fictional is as deluded
as an attempt to reify Amida as an existing 'spirit'
living in a physically 'real' pure land off in the West.
Amida is beyond us.
  From what I understand (and I admit my poor
understanding is limited by my bonno nature), the
middle path through this is to think of Amida as
great compassion which transcends reality as we
know it.

>It seems necessary for poor fools like myself to be able to believe Amida
>symbolizes something real AND capable of functioning AS IF it were a divine
>being like Amida.  I read today Shinran considers the details of Amida and
>the Pure Land as being "expedient"  while the "true" form is identical with
>the absolute, described variously in Buddhism as emptiness, complete Nirvana,
>Buddha-nature, the unconditioned, the immeasurable, the inconceivable, etc.
>
>Terrific!  I can't get started with absurdly large lotus petals but "the
>unconditioned" and "the inconceivable" sound very promising (to me).

That works for me too!

>Assuming the inconceivable absolute is interested and capable of bringing
>about my salvation I would have liked to take the assumed offer on faith but
>still doubted I had the REAL faith.  Lucky for me and as I understand it,
>Shinran defines the real faith as being without definition (Gi naki o gi to
>su) and I breathed a sigh of relief.  If the required faith is not defined
>then my compulsively doubting analytical mind has nothing to vivisect and the
>working of my salvation can proceed unhindered (by that doubting mind).

Excellent.

>I therefore resign myself to the hopefully merciful ministrations of the
>unknown absolute -- happy to no longer be my own problem.  If the absolute
>(Amida) "saves" me that is very good, if not, there's nothing much I can do
>anyway.  It might be worth a trip to hell just to not have to try to save
>myself anymore!  :-)

If I may be so bold, it sounds like you are very close to
shinjin. Keep studying Shinran. The Tannisho is probably
the best source, the simplest statement of Shinran's
revelation of the Pure Land path of Other Power. Hang in
there,
in gassho,
Namu Amida Butsu
Rick S.
(Shaku Egen)

Dear Rick,

>
> If I may be so bold, it sounds like you are very close to
> shinjin. Keep studying Shinran. The Tannisho is probably
> the best source, the simplest statement of Shinran's
> revelation of the Pure Land path of Other Power. Hang in
> there,
> in gassho,
> Namu Amida Butsu
> Rick S.
> (Shaku Egen)
>
>

thanks for the encouragement but I have to confess flattery works all too
well on me so I instantly jumped to the conclusion I was way ahead of myself.
Considering how ingrained habits like this are in me could be pretty
discouraging if it wasn't also a little comical !

I ordered a copy of the Collected Works of Shinran which I'm looking forward
to. I've not actually read the whole Tannisho yet except for Dr.Bloom's
"Resource for Modern Living".  I'm also really interested in Dr.Uno's next
book (due out in a couple of months) because the last one was so good -- the
only book I ever read 3 times.

but ya, I'm hangin' in there all right  --  bobbing up and down somewhere in
the ocean of samsara with a grin starting to form ...

all the best,

-A