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Sizing tasks, story points, and done   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #26711 of 42758 |
Recently, new Scrum teams in one of the world's largest healthcare
companies decided to measure burndown in their sprints only by story
points for the companies most critical project with a hard delivery
date that was one year earlier that the predicted waterfall date. They
only burned down when a story was done and done meant fully tested at
the functional level, not just unit tested as at many companies. And
they met the date, one year early.

Why? Because they understood that tasks complete with stories
unfinished just means a lot of work in progress with potential major
integration problems when you really test the code in a global build
of the system. Also they know that one hour of work for one developer
could be 10 hours of work for another developer, that research shows
that hours have no relationship whatsoever to quality and that one
team may be disrupted and take 10 hours to do what another team might
need 250 hours to do. Hours are completely useless as a measurement
except when you have to cut a check to a consultant whether he
delivers anything or not. You certainly don't need them to pay
developers since they are paid the same amount every month independent
of hours they work (or stuff they have delivered).

Published research shows that hunans are terrible at estimating
anything in hours. However, they are pretty good at relative sizing.
They know roughtly what S, M, L, and XL t-shirt sizes mean even if
they can't guess the weight of th people. And their brains are wired
for a growth pattern seen everywhere in nature that can be described
by a Fibonacci series.

Therefore, you will get better estimates for anything using Fibonacci
whether they be stories, t-shirts, tasks, or when dinmer might be
ready.

Nevertheless, new teams often have management that demands hours, just
like they used to demand waterfall. It doesn't work but it's familiar
and they are addicted. So it is easier to just give it to them. That's
why I agree with Mike Cohn that new teams might be best at estimating
stories in story points and tasks in hours.

However, at Google in Trondheim recntly, where they are doing
everything in Scrum and the typical developer has been head of the
Internet task force for the last five years, my recommendation was to
forget hours. That would just slow them down. Don't even estimate
velocity as these guys know roughly what they can do and can get to
accurate velocity by measuring it from Sprint to Sprint and use
"Yesterday's Weather" as a best practice pattern for pulling stories
into a Sprint. Only estimate stories in story points and only burn
down completed stories.

Of course, at Google, they have no managers looking over their
shoulder that are addicted to hours, so they do not have the
impediments that most organizations have so they will go faster out of
the gate.

Scrum was designed for extreme performance through inspecting and
adapting. Most high performance teams I have worked with have used
hours in the early days as training wheels and they abandoned them as
their velocity went ballistic.

Last year I asked my Chief Product Owner if he felt uncomfortable that
we were no longer keeping track of hours. He said yes, that some
nights he had knots in his stomach when he went to bed. I asked him if
he wanted to go back to the rigorous hourly measurement that we had
used for several years. He said "No!" When I asked why not, he said,
"It will slow the teams down!" So our Product Owner has inspected and
adapted and decided to accept a "perceived risk" in exchange for
velocity and maximized business value.

Fear not. I still teach how to estimate sprint backlog by measurng
tasks in hours in Scrum training since most of those new to Scrum need
it. In fact, until they can demonstrate they can pass the Nokia test
for doing Scrum they should not think about anything else. But that is
another whole discussion.

--
Jeff Sutherland
jeff.sutherland@...



Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:06 am

jsutherland
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Message #26711 of 42758 |
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Recently, new Scrum teams in one of the world's largest healthcare companies decided to measure burndown in their sprints only by story points for the...
Jeff Sutherland
jsutherland
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Jan 30, 2008
11:06 am

Interesting... I also "forget about the hours". Sprint Backlog is for the Team. If they're commited to the Sprint objectives they don't need to care about the...
Rodrigo Yoshima
rodrigoyoshima
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Jan 30, 2008
11:37 am

Hi Jeff, Thanks for sharing! I have done the same thing you described, and I've been very sucessful. We just care about story points and commitment-driven...
Ricardo Mayerhofer
imp_galo
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Jan 30, 2008
12:55 pm

Jeff, A few questions... So the teams in question still create tasks, they just don't estimate them in hours? Do they give any estimates on tasks size...
hhroark
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Jan 30, 2008
1:10 pm

... That's great, Jeff. Can you tell us about the size of the stories, the variability in the size of the stories, and the sprint length? Inquiring Minds Want...
George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie
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Jan 30, 2008
1:34 pm

I believe that "estimating tasks" is the biggest controversy in SCRUM. Most of the people like to spend hours estimating ... hours with the team members. But...
Flávio Steffens d...
flaviogrupos
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Jan 30, 2008
2:52 pm

Hi Flavio, I believe that if you are using a taskboard then none of this is necessary. The board itself very clearly shows the progress you describe. For...
Tobias Mayer
tobias.mayer
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Jan 30, 2008
3:04 pm

Hey Tobias, As I said, often the visual graphs are more effective than the taskboard itselfs. Maybe the real gain of using a burndown to "count the tasks" is ...
Flávio Steffens de...
flaviogrupos
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Jan 30, 2008
3:08 pm

I appreciate burning down by story points, but I think that that is appropriate at the product backlog burndown chart level and not at the sprint burndown...
Heber Ferraz-Leite
heber_ferraz...
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Jan 30, 2008
7:54 pm

... I think it's another tiny step toward working directly with stories, which have business value, rather than measuring work, which doesn't. It removes...
George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie
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Jan 30, 2008
11:41 pm

This sounds good, Jeff. It is encouraging to hear from many recent posts that there is a trend away from estimating and burning down on hours; it was the one...
Tobias Mayer
tobias.mayer
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Jan 30, 2008
2:41 pm

I like the idea about doing upward type charts. So I have no hassle in seeing this implemented. My problems come in the sizing of the tasks without using...
Della-Croce, Greg
solutionbuilder
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Jan 30, 2008
3:32 pm

Hi Greg, My two cents... Give hours estimates if you must, but be clear (to yourself if no one else) that the estimate will be wrong. As Jeff points out what...
Tobias Mayer
tobias.mayer
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Jan 30, 2008
3:58 pm

Another good suggestion is to have each task time-boxed as ONE EFFORT DAY of work. If I will work with time estimate, I will use this. Flavio ... -- ...
Flávio Steffens d...
flaviogrupos
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Jan 30, 2008
4:20 pm

What a great topic. I taught a Scrum class yesterday and an agile estimating and planning class today. I'll say here what I said in each class: "The purpose of...
Mike Cohn
mikewcohn
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Jan 30, 2008
5:28 pm

I'm so happy to hear you say this. Too often people forget and get caught up in the process, and lose sight of the spirit of the thing. Estimates are not...
Nicholas Cancelliere
nickaustin74
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Jan 30, 2008
10:36 pm

Hi Mike, as I said, the # of tasks remaining at the burndown is a very simple way to use the burndown. Im not very happy on estimating hours to each task......
Flávio Steffens d...
flaviogrupos
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Jan 30, 2008
10:48 pm

I've seen teams do task burndowns before and I have to say that while it's nice in theory I'm not sure it was worth the 30 seconds of effort it took. If we go...
Mike Cohn
mikewcohn
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Jan 30, 2008
10:59 pm

Hi Mike, To be clear, I recommend that a task (card) is no bigger than a day's worth of work, not that it is a day's worth of work. Some tasks of course are...
Tobias Mayer
tobias.mayer
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Jan 30, 2008
11:42 pm

So far I have identified the following as key points in this thread are: - Stories in points - Tasks in Hours - New teams should use Tasks in Hours until they...
Mike Sutton
mikesutton7474
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Jan 31, 2008
2:33 pm

Im loving this thread :) Mike, in my specific case, there's some points to say: 1st) my team is new to SCRUM. 2nd) my team is new even into business (youngers,...
Flávio Steffens de...
flaviogrupos
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Jan 31, 2008
12:12 am

Flavio, ... <flavio.steffens@...> wrote: <snip> ... get 5 ... more ... </snip> If they are nervous, what do you hope will happen then? Get motivated to work...
Matt
analyticalchaos
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Jan 31, 2008
5:18 am

I think a sprint burndown chart is wonderful when it is of hours. I just haven't seen it be useful when it's of tasks. If you do, then you should draw it no...
Mike Cohn
mikewcohn
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Jan 31, 2008
8:01 am

<<< In writing the AEP book I sought out teams doing that and what I found from them was most were really thinking hours in their heads and knew a relationship...
Heber Ferraz-Leite
heber_ferraz...
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Jan 31, 2008
12:04 pm

Does anyone has the same scenary than I? Teams with young people, newbies to SCRUM and also newbies to development? If yes, do you note if the teams prefer to...
Flávio Steffens d...
flaviogrupos
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Jan 31, 2008
12:17 pm

Flávio, I have the same experience. It gives people a good feeling that they see the chart going down and a sense of proudness when they sign off a task. ... ...
mkg6_hotmail
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Feb 6, 2008
7:15 pm

Well, you may want to consider finding ways to work towards a more open relationship with that manager. But, I totally understand there are some managers who...
Mike Cohn
mikewcohn
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Jan 31, 2008
1:52 pm

I don't see why one can't have both. I overlay both an hour-based task burndown, and a point-based feature burn-up on our chart. I agree that the task-level...
woynam
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Feb 1, 2008
4:33 pm

Hi Flavio, I think you should head your team toward what is important to the company. I'm not sure if tasks done is as important as stories completed. Tasks...
Ricardo Mayerhofer
imp_galo
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Jan 31, 2008
12:49 pm
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