This is a really important discussion. If anyone is
interested, I have just started a new Yahoo group
where we can delve into this more philosophical stuff:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agileaxioms/

I figure it can be about agile, lean, community,
culture, philosophy and all the other soft stuff
related to the work we are doing.

I think that we need to come up with a more carefully
thought-out set of principles and disciplines than
those expressed in the Agile Software Manifesto. I've
been thinking about this for a while and taken a crack
at it with a few other agile practitioners/coaches
that I know personally: http://www.agileaxioms.com/ -
but I can't say that this represents anything but the
thoughts of a few people with very limited experience.
I'd love to have a discussion with lots of people
about this aspect of what we do.

Mishkin Berteig
mishkin@...
http://www.agileadvice.com/


--- Victor Szalvay <victor@...> wrote:

> Tobias,
>
> Thanks for writing this. When you originally posted
> I wasn't quite
> clear what you meant. Understanding better now, I
> agree with you and
> would like to add some thoughts and examples.
>
> Too many organizations adopting Scrum are doing so
> at a surface level:
> implementing a few of the practices while ignoring
> much of the
> principles and cultural change necessary for it to
> thrive and sustain.
> This same phenomenon is happening in the "lean"
> movement, and I think
> it would be wise for us to take some cues from the
> attempted
> implementation of lean in U.S. manufacturing
> companies. I've written
> about one reveling example:
>
http://danube.com/blog/victorszalvay/practices_without_principles_tps_without_th\
e_toyota_way.html
>
> It was left out of my post, but Liker goes on to say
> that ultimately
> many lean implementations fail shortly after
> installation because
> organizations do not foster cultural change toward
> continuous
> improvement of the product and the process. Those
> organizations say
> "lean doesn't work here" and go back to mediocrity.
> Luckily for lean
> there is overwhelming evidence that it does work
> (e.g., Toyota).
> That's acceptable because some organizations will
> reap the benefits,
> while others will not.
>
> But what about Scrum? What I am concerned about is
> hearing "Scrum
> doesn't work (period)" instead of "Scrum doesn't
> work here". I know
> many organizations have experienced improvement and
> success building
> software with Scrum, but we'd benefit tremendously
> from a Toyota level
> success. But at Toyota it's taken them decades to
> build a culture
> from the ground up that is thoroughly permeated with
> the "Toyota Way".
> Is the change we are talking about, the depth and
> full saturation
> required for Scrum to be fostered, possible at an
> established
> organization with entrenched politics and culture?
>
> -- Victor Szalvay
> Danube Technologies, Inc.
> http://danube.com
>
>
>
> --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Tobias
> Mayer <tobyanon@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > For anyone still interested in the topic:
> http://agilethinking.net/catastrophic.html
> > Tobias
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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