we run all our outdoor training (BALOO, OWL, SM Outdoor, etc) as a council, and
usually once a year.  that way we get 20-25 and can run a good training session.

   Sandy OWL

Mike Marks <MikeMarks@...> wrote:
           My opinion and observations.

The best attended training sessions are ones that are "required". In order
to take a Pack camping, you must attend BALOO. In order to get a tour
permit you must have youth protection.

The second best attendance is training sessions where the leaders see the
most immediate VALUE to them. Value = is it worth my time and money to
attend?? Will it help me be a better leader now? Will I obtain enough
usable information to make the evening, the day or the weekend worth taking
time away from my unit, family, job or leisure activity?

Remember that value starts as a perception. Potential participants are
"sold" on training courses by their friends, the promotion effort, the
enthusiasm of the course director, the quality of the flyer, the article in
the newsletter, etc.

There's a myriad of external factors out of your control that affect
attendance. Cost is too high. Date conflicts with other activities. You
may not have an adequately large "pool" of potential participants. It's
entirely possible that a majority of the folks that need training have been
trained. (of course that speaks to an entirely different issue -- the need
for additional recruitment).

And one more thing to consider in your promotion effort... You may not be
reaching the RIGHT people. Depending on how you promote the training, you
might be passing through one or more "leader filter" before the information
actually reaches the intended audience of untrained volunteers. For
instance - if you only make announcements or pass out flyers at the monthly
roundtable, you are counting on a leader from each unit to bring the
information back to their troop and promote IOLS. If that person is a SM
who doesn't believe in training you can bet the other leaders in his Troop
aren't hearing about your course!

The easy answer to that issue - promote directly to every new leaders.
Believe me; it's worth a 39 cent stamp! It's even worth a 2-3 minute
follow-up phone call. How? Every new leader submits an application. That
application can be "flagged" and a copy provided to the training chairman in
your district.

If all else fails and attendance continues to be low - consider partnering
with a nearby district. It will make more effective use of your time and
make for a better participant experience.

mm

_____

Subject: [Scouter_T] IOLS Training lack of interest.

I am a district Boy Scout Leader Training and I am getting dis-
heartened by the lack of interest in attending this event. We just
canceled our event for next week since no one signed up for it. This
event has been advertised since last year.

We seldom get more than a patrol for this event, which detracts from
the training's effectiveness.

Any ideas?

Herb Dulzo
Arrowhead District
Chicago Area Council.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com.  Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Herb,

   I am a trainer in the next council over (more or less) .  In Three Fires
Council, we moved IOLS to a bi-annual event.  We usually run it in April and
September.  The last couple of classes have incorporated the WOLS also.  We have
seperate trainers for the Webelos breakouts as suggested in the WOLS syllabus.

   Howard Hansen
   Fox Valley District

Herbert Dulzo <hadulzo@...> wrote:
           I am a district Boy Scout Leader Training and I am getting dis-
heartened by the lack of interest in attending this event. We just
canceled our event for next week since no one signed up for it. This
event has been advertised since last year.

We seldom get more than a patrol for this event, which detracts from
the training's effectiveness.

Any ideas?

Herb Dulzo
Arrowhead District
Chicago Area Council.






Howard Hansen - Batavia, IL
Webelos Den Leader - Cub Scout Pack 153
Fox Valley District - Three Fires Council
Mailto:fv_training02@...

"Eagle's may soar, but Fox's don't get sucked into jet engines"
I used to be a Fox - Wood Badge - C38-03

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You might offer something in the way of special training
as part of IOLS.  If cooking something really good to eat
was part of the training more might come.  If you offer
a tool of Scouting, such as a Silva Compass, as a prize for
completing the training more might come.  You might offer
a special neckerchief and patch for attending. Training, to
succeed, has to offer something to the persons attending
that they will find rewarding.  Everyone has limited time
and they will only attend something if value is received,
in or out of Scouting.  I'm sure you are offering a good training
but if they aren't coming you need to find a way to offer
something additinal that will get them to come.

Joe Jansen
JAJansenJr@...
Owl.  SC-70-15
Scouter's Key


>From: "Herbert Dulzo" <hadulzo@...>
>Reply-To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
>To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Scouter_T] IOLS Training lack of interest.
>Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 17:36:47 -0000
>
>I am a district Boy Scout Leader Training and I am getting dis-
>heartened by the lack of interest in attending this event. We just
>canceled our event for next week since no one signed up for it.  This
>event has been advertised since last year.
>
>We seldom get more than a patrol for this event, which detracts from
>the training's effectiveness.
>
>Any ideas?
>
>Herb Dulzo
>Arrowhead District
>Chicago Area Council.
>
>
>

I require my ASMs to take it, OLS, YP, & basic 1st aid or I won't recharter
them.

Some folks just don't see the importance of "every youth deserves a trained
leader" or they figure someone else will do it just like their mom cleaned
up their room when they were kids.

We also push very hard in the District (my other role).  Pound on it at
roundtables and work the Scoutmasters to get their folks trained - an up
hill battle.



John "Doc" Holladay
Scoutmaster, T1000
One Grand Troop

972 964 2574
www.t1000.org





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 10/15/06 2:18:46 PM, MikeMarks@... writes:


>
> My opinion and observations.
>
> The best attended training sessions are ones that are "required". In order
> to take a Pack camping, you must attend BALOO. In order to get a tour
> permit you must have youth protection.
>
> The second best attendance is training sessions where the leaders see the
> most immediate VALUE to them.
>
>
>
(second post)
  we run all our outdoor training (BALOO, OWL, SM Outdoor, etc) as a council,
and usually once a year. that way we get 20-25 and can run a good training
session.


This thread troubles me,   not because I disagree with anything in it
factually,   but because of what it implies.

The idea of the Training Continuum   was that training would quickly be made
available to the person who needed it and we would not, not, not be
constrained to traditional training classes.

Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills is, I believe,   intended to give the
very basic skills needed to be a halfway competent camper.    It covers, I
believe,   the tenderfoot, second class and first class hiking and camping
skills.

If we only run that class once per year,   in order to get a large enough
class that we, as trainers, feel is the kind of course that we want to and like
to run,   we are essentially saying to the new SM or ASM.   "Welcome to the
BSA.    The class in very basic outdoor skills which you need not to look like a
buffoon in the out of doors is being held in 10 months.    We hope to see you
there.    Meanwhile,   we know that you have a camping trip scheduled next
week, and and another one each month between now and that course.    We have
nothing to help you between now and then.   Good luck, you're on your own,   and
try not to look and feel too much like an idiot."

If IOLS fills a real need,   then we as trainers need to come up with a way
to give that information very quickly to new leaders.    If it doesn't fill a
real need and new leaders are getting the information provided in IOLS through
other sources ( for example,   an ASM getting the information from personal
coaching from the SM),   then we should stop trying to hold it as we do and
certify completion of this skill level through personal coaching (which is an
approved method to complete training.)    Or if advanced OLS training is what we
really are conducting,   then we should call it that and maybe we'll get better
attendance,   but the need for training of new leaders is still there.

Sometime this week or next,   I understand that a DVD of training of all TF,
2nd Class and 1st Class skills will be mailed to all Scoutmasters plus copies
will be at local council headquarters.    This DVD can be copied as desired.
If a unit wished, for example,   they could make a copy for every Scout.
The training segments are also now available at the National web site
www.scouting.org.   I believe that this DVD has all information covered in IOLS.
Would it make sense to make this DVD available to new leaders and then certify
their completion of IOLS through personal coaching and testing by a
Commissioner,   trainer,   their experienced SM, etc?

I know that it doesn't give the group spirit, etc.   of large classes.
But do those group classes really meet the needs of our leaders if they are held
so infrequently and still may be small?

I'm also troubled that the best attended classes are those which are required
and the second best are those perceived to have "value."    I hope that the
required classes, which are very, very few,   are the ones with the most value
although I can understand that the perception might be very different.

Best wishes,

Neil Lupton


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Neil,



You have some valid points . while I'll disagree with others.



The concept of the training continuum was a good one.  It was based on a
solid foundation of learning and geared toward the minimum* training
necessary to be operate a unit. hence the name "basic training".  *Minimum =
least amount of time needed to complete/only requiring the portions of
training needed for that position.



IOLS covers ALL the outdoor skills necessary to bring a boy from Scout badge
to First Class (not just hiking and camping).  It is geared toward the
lowest common denominator - the leader who has little or no outdoor skills.



I agree with you completely.  Once a year is not enough to provide the
training needed by new Scoutmasters.  Given that in most troops there is
some amount of tenure amongst SM's and SA's and some form of succession,
infrequent training sessions might be not be ideal, but may be acceptable
(especially when combined with a willingness to consider nearby districts to
meet their needs).   This is contrary to the typical Cub Scout pack where
turnover of leaders is the norm and training needs to be more frequent.



IOLS does fulfill a need that's very important to the program.  It assures
that every leader has the same basic understanding of the requirements and
can teach them.  The need for this training varies wildly between
participants.  The recent Eagle Scout could (should) be able to teach the
subjects while the parent who is experiencing the outdoors for the first
time will be a wide-eyed sponge.



Personal coaching is an approved method for training in the BSA.  In
instances where a scheduled training is not available it may be the only way
to bring a new leader to a level of understanding where they can be
effective (or at least not look like a buffoon).  But on the whole, IOLS is
best done over a weekend with multiple trainers.  The ability to network and
share problems is worth the price of admission.



To believe the new videos could substitute for IOLS would be a mistake.  In
some instances they cover only a part of the requirement in others they move
too quickly.  Mostly it doesn't provide for practice time with a mentor.
Consider this. everything that is in covered in the videos is also in the
Boy Scout handbook.  If we ask leaders to read the handbook then submit to
testing would that work?



I think the video are awesome - and should be "required" viewing by all
Scoutmaster.  They describe the requirements in ways that youth will
understand. I've picked up many good pointers by watching them.  In addition
to the "how", the videos go the extra step of describing the "why".



If we could have an assurance that new leaders will receive adequate
personal coaching, then I would agree with you suggestion to bypass IOLS and
use the videos.  In the meantime, the videos will provide one more method of
instruction to the youth.   They will compensate for Scoutmasters who are
untrained, poor trainers, or who insist on doing things the way they did
when they were a kid (like those who still cut corners on tot'n chips - or
insist on youth saying "I got it" when passing closed pocket knives).



Advanced OLS is a great idea.   I've heard it suggested over and over again.
Sometimes as a follow-up to IOLS and other times as a way of expanding basic
skills.  There is nothing stopping a Council or District from offering home
grown supplemental training sessions.  Many Councils do just that with their
"HAT" programs.



Taking action based on perceived value?  Doing what is required vs. what is
optional?  We make those decisions every day!!  We do that with how we spend
our resources. and more important than money - our time.  Adult
leaders/parents have so many options and so many demands on their time.  As
responsible adults, we generally do what must be done or what is "required".
And it's natural to skip what has little or no value and choose to spend
time in worthwhile endeavors (ie: with our families).



All the required training classes in Scouting are related to safety.  And
most of them have a two-year expiration.  On this point, we agree. when it
comes to the safety of our youth, it doesn't matter if they have perceived
value or not - we know they have real value.



Our job as trainers is to provide real value in our training.  I believe our
training staffs have this goal etched in their hearts.  Most of the trainers
I've worked with do it because the love training and believe they can make a
difference in the program by training others.



The area where I feel we (training committees & staffs) don't do a good job
is "selling" others on the value of our training - hence my reference to
perceived value.  Many think an announcement, a flyer and maybe couple of
e-mails will cause the masses to flock to our training classes.



In any case, when we see poor attendance at our training classes, we need to
ask ourselves "why" and look for the root cause of the problem.  We need to
do this even if it means pointing a finger at ourselves because we didn't
adequately promote or because we've allowed the quality of the trainers to
slide or. whatever.



IF the answer comes back - we can get everything we need from a DVD. then
stop holding the training.   I know this might upset some very good aquatics
directors, but in the case of Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat, the
online training that is now available is MUCH, MUCH better than the videos
or the few minutes the aquatics director might give you during summer camp
to tell you to remember PDQBALLS.



And in the case of Youth Protection, the online training is significantly
better than "most" of the YPT sessions I've witnessed where the trainer hits
the play button and maybe reads from the script.



One more point. with the on-line aquatics and YP training there are tests
for learning at the end that determines if you receive the card or not.  A
leader can sleep through IOLS or SM & SA LST or any of the others and still
receive a card.  The real test in those instances will be the quality of the
program in their units. and the number of kids who are voting with their
feet because they realize the value of Scouting (or not).



mm





   _____

From: NeilLup@... [mailto:NeilLup@...]
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 9:58 PM
To: MikeMarks@...; scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] IOLS Training lack of interest.




In a message dated 10/15/06 2:18:46 PM, MikeMarks@... writes:






My opinion and observations.

The best attended training sessions are ones that are "required". In order
to take a Pack camping, you must attend BALOO. In order to get a tour
permit you must have youth protection.

The second best attendance is training sessions where the leaders see the
most immediate VALUE to them.

(second post)
we run all our outdoor training (BALOO, OWL, SM Outdoor, etc) as a council,
and usually once a year. that way we get 20-25 and can run a good training
session.


This thread troubles me,  not because I disagree with anything in it
factually,  but because of what it implies.

The idea of the Training Continuum  was that training would quickly be made
available to the person who needed it and we would not, not, not be
constrained to traditional training classes.

Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills is, I believe,  intended to give the
very basic skills needed to be a halfway competent camper.   It covers, I
believe,  the tenderfoot, second class and first class hiking and camping
skills.

If we only run that class once per year,  in order to get a large enough
class that we, as trainers, feel is the kind of course that we want to and
like to run,  we are essentially saying to the new SM or ASM.  "Welcome to
the BSA.   The class in very basic outdoor skills which you need not to look
like a buffoon in the out of doors is being held in 10 months.   We hope to
see you there.   Meanwhile,  we know that you have a camping trip scheduled
next week, and and another one each month between now and that course.   We
have nothing to help you between now and then.  Good luck, you're on your
own,  and try not to look and feel too much like an idiot."

If IOLS fills a real need,  then we as trainers need to come up with a way
to give that information very quickly to new leaders.   If it doesn't fill a
real need and new leaders are getting the information provided in IOLS
through other sources ( for example,  an ASM getting the information from
personal coaching from the SM),  then we should stop trying to hold it as we
do and certify completion of this skill level through personal coaching
(which is an approved method to complete training.)   Or if advanced OLS
training is what we really are conducting,  then we should call it that and
maybe we'll get better attendance,  but the need for training of new leaders
is still there.

Sometime this week or next,  I understand that a DVD of training of all TF,
2nd Class and 1st Class skills will be mailed to all Scoutmasters plus
copies will be at local council headquarters.   This DVD can be copied as
desired.  If a unit wished, for example,  they could make a copy for every
Scout.   The training segments are also now available at the National web
site www.scouting.org.  I believe that this DVD has all information covered
in IOLS.   Would it make sense to make this DVD available to new leaders and
then certify their completion of IOLS through personal coaching and testing
by a Commissioner,  trainer,  their experienced SM, etc?

I know that it doesn't give the group spirit, etc.  of large classes.   But
do those group classes really meet the needs of our leaders if they are held
so infrequently and still may be small?

I'm also troubled that the best attended classes are those which are
required and the second best are those perceived to have "value."   I hope
that the required classes, which are very, very few,  are the ones with the
most value although I can understand that the perception might be very
different.

Best wishes,

Neil Lupton



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We run this council wide, not district wide.  Even if your district is huge,
you may want to combine with at least another district or two.

Pete Mullaney

P.S.  Do you know Val Martens (sp?) - worked with him at Jambo in 2001 and
stopped by to see him with his troop in 2005.



-----Original Message-----
Subject: [Scouter_T] IOLS Training lack of interest.

I am a district Boy Scout Leader Training and I am getting dis-
heartened by the lack of interest in attending this event. We just
canceled our event for next week since no one signed up for it.  This
event has been advertised since last year.


We seldom get more than a patrol for this event, which detracts from
the training's effectiveness.

Any ideas?

Herb Dulzo
Arrowhead District
Chicago Area Council.

I think this was eloquent and very well written. And I am chiming in as a
Aquatics Director. SSD and SA have needed serious upgrading for a very long
time. You have not offended me at all. I was glad to see it............

   Also what my troop has decided to do is take those videos that are meant to
teach basic skills, show them to our youth instructors so that they are teaching
the skills in a uniform way. With not only the how but the why.........

Mike Marks <MikeMarks@...> wrote:
   Neil,



You have some valid points . while I'll disagree with others.







IF the answer comes back - we can get everything we need from a DVD. then
stop holding the training. I know this might upset some very good aquatics
directors, but in the case of Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat, the
online training that is now available is MUCH, MUCH better than the videos
or the few minutes the aquatics director might give you during summer camp
to tell you to remember PDQBALLS.





connie

SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If I read this thread right, one council has problems getting anyone
to attend IOLS and another council only holds IOLS once a year to get
a decent turn out of 25.  To me, that means that if you held it twice
a year, you'd get 12 or 13 participants each time.

My council, a lowly Class 800 (the smallest in the BSA) has run IOLS
with as few as 3 participants.  In the upcoming one (Halloween
weekend) we have 5 registered.

If there's a need, TRAIN THEM!   Yes, it's hard to teach the patrol
method with only a few, but they get a more 'individualized' training
because there are less of them than there are instructors.  =-)


Some things to look at:
1) Timing of event - is there a major event scheduled the same weekend
as your training (College football? camporee, etc.)  If there's an
event, perhaps that's the PERFECT time to teach the SM.  What else do
they have to do during the day when the Council is running the Camporee?

2) Publication - how long has the information been out there?

3) Promotion - have you asked for the UNTRAINED list out of ScoutNet
and contacted each person (phone, postcard, letter, etc.)?




It *is* harder with Scoutmasters to say that there is a turnover.
Many Scoutmasters get into the position, and stay for 10+ years.  When
you have a bunch of previously trained Scoutmasters, you'll need to do
something SPECIAL to get them trained again.  Perhaps you can invite
them to be instructors.  When I thought *my* SM needed a refresher
course, we invited him to help staff.  He learned many things (some
that he said he knew but forgot) that weekend.




Ida
  - Juniata Valley Council, Nittany Mountain District Training Chair

Has anyone had any problems moving the BSA Early Rank Videos on the National web
site to an iPod?

The RSS feed in fine and iTunes downloads them with ease, but I have discovered
that I have to transcode (i.e. convert) the video in order to put them on my 5th
generation video iPod.  Has anyone else experienced this?

--
------------------
Steven R. Crawford
srcrawford@...

[Neil Lupton wrote:]
The idea of the Training Continuum   was that training would quickly be made
available to the person who needed it and we would not, not, not be
constrained to traditional training classes.
* * *
If IOLS fills a real need,   then we as trainers need to come up with a way
to give that information very quickly to new leaders.    If it doesn't fill
a
real need and new leaders are getting the information provided in IOLS
through
other sources ( for example,   an ASM getting the information from personal
coaching from the SM),   then we should stop trying to hold it as we do and
certify completion of this skill level through personal coaching (which is
an
approved method to complete training.)
[/Nei]

So right. lt often seems that we get caught up in the idea that the purpose
of trainers and training committees is to conduct training sessions, losing
sight of the ultimate objective -- helping leaders acquire the skills and
knowledge they need to conduct the program.  People learn in many different
ways, and have different needs and priorities. We need to be able to offer
training through multiple means and formats. We're not yet over the notion
that the "best" way to train is through "one-size-fits-all" classes, but
we're taking the first steps toward recognizing that the best way to train
is the one that reaches the individual in need of training.

Dan Kurtenbach
Fairfax, VA

> [Neil Lupton wrote:]
> The idea of the Training Continuum   was that training would
> quickly be made available to the person who needed it and we would
not, not,
> not be constrained to traditional training classes.
> * * *
> If IOLS fills a real need,   then we as trainers need to come
> up with a way to give that information very quickly to new leaders.
If
> it doesn't fill a real need and new leaders are getting the
information
> provided in IOLS through other sources ( for example,   an ASM getting
the information
> from personal coaching from the SM),   then we should stop trying to
hold
> it as we do and certify completion of this skill level through
personal
> coaching (which is an approved method to complete training.)
> [/Neil]

[And Dan Kurtenbach added:]
> So right. lt often seems that we get caught up in the idea
> that the purpose of trainers and training committees is to conduct
training
> sessions, losing sight of the ultimate objective -- helping leaders
acquire
> the skills and knowledge they need to conduct the program.
[/Dan]

Sorry to carry forward so much, but it is sort of necessary to make this
point.  As I recall, there is a provision in the training syllabus for
an individual to "CLEP Out" in effect and get Training credit for those
things the individual already knows without have to endure 8 hours (or 2
days) of Butt-Time in order to be considered "Trained".  Maybe making
this more widely known/available in your Council/District would
alleviate some of the lack of interest too.

YiS

Roy Fisher

--- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Ida Lively" <Ilively@...> wrote:
>
> My council, a lowly Class 800 (the smallest in the BSA) has run IOLS
> with as few as 3 participants.  In the upcoming one (Halloween
> weekend) we have 5 registered.
>
> If there's a need, TRAIN THEM!   Yes, it's hard to teach the patrol
> method with only a few, but they get a more 'individualized'
> training because there are less of them than there are instructors.

With IOLS, I am a firm believer that it cannot, for the most part, be
taught in a classroom. It's OUTDOOR skills, after all. I think that
Woods Tools, Campsite Selection, Cooking, Map and Compass, Hiking and
Packing, Firesite Prep all DEMAND being outdoors. Sort of like
teaching the Camping MB indoors, it just does not make sense. First
Aid, perhaps. Knots and Lashings, maybe. LNT, sure.

I'm not a purist or an old school Scouter, in fact I am probably
guilty of being more one of the "enlightened" Scouters that someone
complained about, but as the coordinator for Outdoor Leader Training
in our council, I do take a stance on keeping the Outing in Scouting
as well as in Scout Leader training.

So, that's a long introduction to an issue that plagues our council -
COST. We have a minimum number (12 I believe) of participants required
to "break even" on the costs of food and the facilities for IOLS. We
use Council camp facilities for this training, which include kitchen
equipment for the QM's to use to prepare the meals (except the one
from the Cooking session) and hot showers for the staff that are
camping 2 nights (and participants that want them when they camp
overnight). The presentations are held on the covered porch or in the
campsites around the facility.

For these facilities, the Council charges us a usage fee, and the food
certainly costs around $10 per person per day for 3 meals (including
staff). With those fees, we have a minimum number of participants
needed to "fund" the training. Our Council is not operating in the
black, so we have no reserves to make up the difference.

BTW, we hold two sessions each year and get 20-35 participants at
each, so we're always in the black but challenged to consider holding
more sessions.

What do other Councils do with regards to holding a session with as
few as 5 participants? What facilities do you use, and are you charged
for them? Do you hold IOLS outdoors?

Thanks, this is a great dialogue, I appreciate all the comments that
have been made so far.

Jonas

If you have a Scouter with lots of experience, but without the
formal completion of New Leader Essentials, perhaps you can persuade him
or her to serve on the staff for areas with which he is very skilled,
and sit in on the rest, so that s/he gets exposed to the whole course,
but isn't bored with the bits s/he is skilled at, because s/he is
teaching them.

        Dave

R Fisher wrote:
>    As I recall, there is a provision in the training syllabus for
> an individual to "CLEP Out" in effect and get Training credit for those
> things the individual already knows without have to endure 8 hours (or 2
> days) of Butt-Time in order to be considered "Trained".  Maybe making
> this more widely known/available in your Council/District would
> alleviate some of the lack of interest too.
>
> YiS
>
> Roy Fisher
>
>


Dave Loomis        mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
ADC & BS Training Chair
Historic District
Daniel Webster Council, BSA

245 Union St., #4 (603) 431 5342
Portsmouth, NH 0301-4349

Our District feels the same about BALOO.  WE took the 8 hours and turned it
into about 16, but you get the outdoor experience with it.  The participants
love it!!!



Dave Brown
Pack 563
Charlestown, IN
Cub Training Team
Chief Old Ox
Lincoln Heritage Council
WB- SR-778
"I used to be an Antelope."

   _____

From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of jonas4321
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:39 AM
To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: IOLS Training lack of interest.



--- In scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, "Ida
Lively" <Ilively@...> wrote:
>
> My council, a lowly Class 800 (the smallest in the BSA) has run IOLS
> with as few as 3 participants. In the upcoming one (Halloween
> weekend) we have 5 registered.
>
> If there's a need, TRAIN THEM! Yes, it's hard to teach the patrol
> method with only a few, but they get a more 'individualized'
> training because there are less of them than there are instructors.

With IOLS, I am a firm believer that it cannot, for the most part, be
taught in a classroom. It's OUTDOOR skills, after all. I think that
Woods Tools, Campsite Selection, Cooking, Map and Compass, Hiking and
Packing, Firesite Prep all DEMAND being outdoors. Sort of like
teaching the Camping MB indoors, it just does not make sense. First
Aid, perhaps. Knots and Lashings, maybe. LNT, sure.

I'm not a purist or an old school Scouter, in fact I am probably
guilty of being more one of the "enlightened" Scouters that someone
complained about, but as the coordinator for Outdoor Leader Training
in our council, I do take a stance on keeping the Outing in Scouting
as well as in Scout Leader training.

So, that's a long introduction to an issue that plagues our council -
COST. We have a minimum number (12 I believe) of participants required
to "break even" on the costs of food and the facilities for IOLS. We
use Council camp facilities for this training, which include kitchen
equipment for the QM's to use to prepare the meals (except the one
from the Cooking session) and hot showers for the staff that are
camping 2 nights (and participants that want them when they camp
overnight). The presentations are held on the covered porch or in the
campsites around the facility.

For these facilities, the Council charges us a usage fee, and the food
certainly costs around $10 per person per day for 3 meals (including
staff). With those fees, we have a minimum number of participants
needed to "fund" the training. Our Council is not operating in the
black, so we have no reserves to make up the difference.

BTW, we hold two sessions each year and get 20-35 participants at
each, so we're always in the black but challenged to consider holding
more sessions.

What do other Councils do with regards to holding a session with as
few as 5 participants? What facilities do you use, and are you charged
for them? Do you hold IOLS outdoors?

Thanks, this is a great dialogue, I appreciate all the comments that
have been made so far.

Jonas





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Does anyone know if the Collissioner College Syllabus is our there as
a pdf?

This might be more common that we think it is.
I recently had an animated discussion with a Council
Program Director who wanted to discontinue BALOO
training  on the grounds that if packs went camping it
would then hurt attendance at his council camps.
He seemed oblivious to the reason for having council
camps was to encourage more Cub Scout outdoors
activities.

bill smith

Sean Scott wrote:

> For example, a council a
> short drive from mine prohibited Cub Scouts from participating in any
> camping activities, period, as recently as two years ago, but that
> was a local policy (thankfully!).

Some times the total and complete lack of understanding floors me............
   I love taking my cubs camping, we just went last weekend and had a
ball...........

bill smith <wts@...> wrote:
   This might be more common that we think it is.
I recently had an animated discussion with a Council
Program Director who wanted to discontinue BALOO
training on the grounds that if packs went camping it
would then hurt attendance at his council camps.
He seemed oblivious to the reason for having council
camps was to encourage more Cub Scout outdoors
activities.

bill smith



connie

SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all,
I am looking fo a blank Pack organization chart . I had a copy and
cant seem to find it I can make a new one but thought I'd look here
first thanks

It's on the CD that comes with either the New Leader Essentials or the
Position-Specifics syllabus, I believe.

Gerry Moon
Orlando, FL

--- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "TATTOOLDY" <kveach@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> I am looking fo a blank Pack organization chart . I had a copy and
> cant seem to find it I can make a new one but thought I'd look here
> first thanks
>

thanks you guys for your help. You too Phillip. I got what I needed
  -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Gerry Moon" <gerrymoon32817@...>
> It's on the CD that comes with either the New Leader Essentials or the
> Position-Specifics syllabus, I believe.
>
> Gerry Moon
> Orlando, FL
>
> --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "TATTOOLDY" <kveach@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > I am looking fo a blank Pack organization chart . I had a copy and
> > cant seem to find it I can make a new one but thought I'd look here
> > first thanks
> >
>
>
>
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The council will not provide the scoutnet list because of there
privact issue.  FYI we have held the event with 3 participants and 8
staff!
The camp-o-ree Idea has come and I think it deserves a serious look.
thanks
hd

--- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Ida Lively" <Ilively@...> wrote:
>
> If I read this thread right, one council has problems getting anyone
>

I get a lot of resistance when I suggest this.  Not sure why, seems to
me it would work.
--- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Sandra Martens <sandyowl1@...> wrote:
>
> we run all our outdoor training (BALOO, OWL, SM Outdoor, etc) as a
council, and usually once a year.  that way we get 20-25 and can run a
good training session.
>
>   Sandy OWL
>

How many particpants are at your events?
hd
--- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Howard Hansen <fv_training02@...>
wrote:
>
> Herb,
>
>   I am a trainer in the next council over (more or less) .  In
Three Fires Council, we moved IOLS to a bi-annual event.  We usually
run it in April and September.  The last couple of classes have
incorporated the WOLS also.  We have seperate trainers for the
Webelos breakouts as suggested in the WOLS syllabus.
>
>   Howard Hansen
>   Fox Valley District
>
> Herbert Dulzo <hadulzo@...> wrote:
>           I am a district Boy Scout Leader Training and I am
getting dis-
> heartened by the lack of interest in attending this event. We just
> canceled our event for next week since no one signed up for it.
This
> event has been advertised since last year.
>
> We seldom get more than a patrol for this event, which detracts
from
> the training's effectiveness.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Herb Dulzo
> Arrowhead District
> Chicago Area Council.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Howard Hansen - Batavia, IL
> Webelos Den Leader - Cub Scout Pack 153
> Fox Valley District - Three Fires Council
> Mailto:fv_training02@...
>
> "Eagle's may soar, but Fox's don't get sucked into jet engines"
> I used to be a Fox - Wood Badge - C38-03
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Herb,
        I'd start with a long talk with both your Council Training Chair
and whomever has the power to get your MIS person off his or her duff.
Point out that the only way that you can reach the untrained people in
your council is to know who they are, and their attitude makes that
impossible.

        Sensible councils will make lists of untrained Scouters available
to people like training chairs, so that they can do their jobs.  Wacko
councils will bleed all over you about the number of untrained Scouters
and refuse to support you.

        My council regularly sends me lists of people with their training
needs listed, either as hard copy, or Excel dumps, which you can really
work with.  From this, you can generate a upcoming training letter as a
mail merge file, give them the list of intended recipients, and get them
to do a mailing for you, charging the expenses off to your training
budget.  This is an easier way of getting the word out.

        If you have a district web site, get your site guru to set up a
training page that each program shares, and that extends out at least a
year.

        Here's ours:
http://www.dwcbsa.org/districts/historic/index.html  and scroll down

        Dave

Herbert Dulzo wrote:
> The council will not provide the scoutnet list because of there
> privact issue.  FYI we have held the event with 3 participants and 8
> staff!
> The camp-o-ree Idea has come and I think it deserves a serious look.
> thanks
> hd
>
> --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Ida Lively" <Ilively@...> wrote:
>
>> If I read this thread right, one council has problems getting anyone
>>
>>
>
>
Dave Loomis        mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
ADC & BS Training Chair
Historic District
Daniel Webster Council, BSA

245 Union St., #4 (603) 431 5342
Portsmouth, NH 0301-4349



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We usually see between 40 and 60 participants.  Our last session only had 6 or 7
Webelos Leaders.  We need to a better job of publicizing WOLS.  I was told last
week that National is requiring WOLS trained leaders for Webelos to camp in 2007
(but I don't want to open that thread again)  (;O)

   Howard

Herbert Dulzo <hadulzo@...> wrote:
           How many particpants are at your events?
hd
--- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Howard Hansen <fv_training02@...>
wrote:
>
> Herb,
>
> I am a trainer in the next council over (more or less) . In
Three Fires Council, we moved IOLS to a bi-annual event. We usually
run it in April and September. The last couple of classes have
incorporated the WOLS also. We have seperate trainers for the
Webelos breakouts as suggested in the WOLS syllabus.
>
> Howard Hansen
> Fox Valley District
>
> Herbert Dulzo <hadulzo@...> wrote:
> I am a district Boy Scout Leader Training and I am
getting dis-
> heartened by the lack of interest in attending this event. We just
> canceled our event for next week since no one signed up for it.
This
> event has been advertised since last year.
>
> We seldom get more than a patrol for this event, which detracts
from
> the training's effectiveness.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Herb Dulzo
> Arrowhead District
> Chicago Area Council.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Howard Hansen - Batavia, IL
> Webelos Den Leader - Cub Scout Pack 153
> Fox Valley District - Three Fires Council
> Mailto:fv_training02@...
>
> "Eagle's may soar, but Fox's don't get sucked into jet engines"
> I used to be a Fox - Wood Badge - C38-03
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






Howard Hansen - Batavia, IL
Webelos Den Leader - Cub Scout Pack 153
Fox Valley District - Three Fires Council
Mailto:fv_training02@...

"Eagle's may soar, but Fox's don't get sucked into jet engines"
I used to be a Fox - Wood Badge - C38-03

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave,

Couldn't agree with you more!    It's extremely easy to create the list of
untrained adults from ScoutNet.  District or Council training committees can
use this list to market their training sessions directly to the people who
need it most.  The mail merge method is not only an easy way of getting the
word out, it's the extremely effective.  The only thing better would be a
follow-up phone call.

Unfortunately not all Councils are as progressive as Daniel Webster.  Fear
and lack of trust play a big role in how (wacko) Councils handle this
information.  There's an overwhelming fear of any list of Scouters being
used for commercial purposes - and there's a lack of trust that volunteers
will handle lists with the same care and sensitivity as a paid professional.

Herb is "fighting city hall" on this one.  I bet a majority of BSA Councils
fall into you wacko category.  However, it's a fight worth pursuing, through
whatever means possible...  Council Training Chair, DFS, SE or whoever can
yield some influence.



mm






   _____

From: Dave Loomis



Herb,
I'd start with a long talk with both your Council Training Chair and
whomever has the power to get your MIS person off his or her duff. Point out
that the only way that you can reach the untrained people in your council is
to know who they are, and their attitude makes that impossible.

Sensible councils will make lists of untrained Scouters available to people
like training chairs, so that they can do their jobs. Wacko councils will
bleed all over you about the number of untrained Scouters and refuse to
support you.

My council regularly sends me lists of people with their training needs
listed, either as hard copy, or Excel dumps, which you can really work with.
From this, you can generate a upcoming training letter as a mail merge file,
give them the list of intended recipients, and get them to do a mailing for
you, charging the expenses off to your training budget. This is an easier
way of getting the word out.

If you have a district web site, get your site guru to set up a  training
page that each program shares, and that extends out at least a year.

Here's ours:
http://www.dwcbsa. <http://www.dwcbsa.org/districts/historic/index.html>
org/districts/historic/index.html and scroll down

Dave

Herbert Dulzo wrote:
> The council will not provide the scoutnet list because of there
> privact issue. FYI we have held the event with 3 participants and 8
> staff! > The camp-o-ree Idea has come and I think it deserves a serious
look.
> thanks
> hd






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How about this 'work around' ....

YOU ask for an council to generate an UNTRAINED list for your event -- THEY can
do this online, and not print it out.  They can get a number for you.

YOU take that number and create postcards/letters/whatever and submit it to your
council office.

THEY pull the data out of Scoutnet in the form of Address Labels, and attach to
your postcard/letter which they then mail.

(Postage comes out of your budget.)


Ida

Question - do you run SMLST and IOLS as a single course ( connected ) or as
a take one or the other or both?
The new sylllabus has them as two --- I just feel it creates another
Training Black Hole.

Thanks,

Michael



Reach For the Stars - Inspire Others.

Michael  Caporlingua
Hudson River Training Chair

845 988 7902 - C
212 332 9225 - W

mail to: MrCTroop340@...
mail to: michael.caporlingua@...

"There is no teaching to compare with example"  -- BP





>From: "Herbert Dulzo" <hadulzo@...>
>Reply-To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
>To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: IOLS Training lack of interest.
>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 00:58:58 -0000
>
>I get a lot of resistance when I suggest this.  Not sure why, seems to
>me it would work.
>--- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Sandra Martens <sandyowl1@...> wrote:
> >
> > we run all our outdoor training (BALOO, OWL, SM Outdoor, etc) as a
>council, and usually once a year.  that way we get 20-25 and can run a
>good training session.
> >
> >   Sandy OWL
> >
>
>

Hi all,

[This is a very long post! My apologies in advance.]

Took three years for our council training team to get our office to
generate a list of "untrained" leaders. Actually, with the new
requirements for the upcoming "Centennial" award, the office
anticipated the uproar of leaders claiming the records were wrong.
It took significant time and resources to generate, print, copy,
sort, distribute, and mail the hundreds of lists (weeks). It got
done, and now we are spending even more time checking and updating
the records per the scouter requests (lots of requests!). This is on
top of normal operating time.

So have a little sympathy (make that lots) for your registrar.  Many
councils are dealing with the news that a shake-up is in the wind
(read mergers). Though no one has said it bluntly, the clues are
there - either the council is in the black, or could be gone. Even
those that have been positive in the general ledger for years are re-
examining their operating costs and their funding outreach. "More
with less." Yuck.

So here comes the district/council training chair, asking for
the "untrained" list (that generates no revenue) so they can put on
a training (that usually operates at a loss). You can hear the snow
falling in Hades.

I'm blest. My council is financial strong (comparatively). Yours may
not be. What to do? Show value!

[Aside: There is a perception that some scouters like paper. They
want it, try to get it, then hoard it. It dies a slow death on a
corner of their desk. Not good. Surely not value. Me, too,
sometimes.]

You (we) need to demonstrate the after the council has gone through
this significant investment, you are going to follow through with
(very) positive results. Another blurb in your council newsletter is
likely not enough.

We all know promotion methods (for anything) varies. Articles
(shotgun method) give so-so results. Announcements/discussion at
roundtables with the particular focus group (rifle method) gives
slightly better results. Phone-to-phone or face-to-face (handgun and
hand-to-hand methods, to continue my chilling analogy) give the best
results.

Form your phone/face team. Plan a specific promotion event, not just
the training opportunity. Tap everybody's shoulders to see if they
are willing to spend their precious time phoning/facing until ALL
the "untrained" have been reached. Get commitments. Get outside of
just the trainer group; commissioners, roundtable staff, active unit
leaders, everybody. Ask, beg, plead. Take names. Make a list. More
people, more effective. Try to get one phoner/facer for every ten
scouters in your district/council. Set a training goal (100%
trained? 80%?). Check your ph/f list twice. Is it real? You must
demonstrate to your Scout Executive that the "untrained" lists will
be USED HARD, REAL HARD. We can't ask our professional staff to get
outside of their box unless we volunteers are willing to join them.

Frankly, if you can't get huge support for this follow-up, why
should the council office bother? (Your next council may.)

[Another simple aside: After our office did their work (Thank you!),
we tried direct mailings to unit committee chairs and unit leaders,
and, sadly, the results are far less than spectacular. IT DIDN'T
WORK! So we are going to have to practice what I'm preaching.)

I know this is tough, but we are living in tough times. Non-profit
money is a scarce resource. Office staff are wondering/worried. Your
camp needs a LOT of maintenance that has been delayed (true
everywhere). Trouble, trouble, trouble. But both volunteers and
professionals know trained leaders are better (more active) leaders.
Mo' better leaders can actually re-build momentum. Mo' momentum is
GOOD.

OK. Thank you for your time and patience. Now, I have to leave. I
have to go walk my talk.

God help you and me, and may God bless you.

Yours in Scouting,
Barry tbb Smith
Cub Scout Training Chair
Great Trail Council, Akron, OH

"Tis better to build boys than mend men."

P.S. Keep that phoner/facer list. FOS is around the corner. Keep
your council and keep your camp! tbb