At our last Commissioner meeting, the staff expressed interest in
becoming the providers of beginning level training.  i.e. youth
protection, leader essentials, fast start, committee training.  The
feeling was that by bringing basic training to the unit, we could get
more leaders trained, get leaders interested in further training, set
up the Commissioner as an "expert", and hold training when needed as
opposed to once a quarter.  The team requested a Trainer Development
Conference for Commissioners.

Does this idea give training chairmen heartburn or does it have
potential?

While I am at it, there was discussion as to whether Rountable was a
Commissioner function or a training function.  The consensus seemed to
be that it was a training function and that they should be part of the
training team and not the Commissioner staff.  Any thoughts?

Randy Worcester wrote:

>At our last Commissioner meeting, the staff expressed interest in
>becoming the providers of beginning level training.  i.e. youth
>protection, leader essentials, fast start, committee training.  The
>feeling was that by bringing basic training to the unit, we could get
>more leaders trained, get leaders interested in further training, set
>up the Commissioner as an "expert", and hold training when needed as
>opposed to once a quarter.
>
>

This sounds like the job of a Pack Trainer.  Not that commissioners
can't have "training power" also, but at the Cub level, that is the job
of the Pack Trainer, to be able to administer training to the pack on an
as needed basis.

This from the Virtual Leader's Handbook...


Qualifications:
If residing in this country but not a citizen of the United States,
agrees to abide by the Scout Oath and Law, to respect and obey the laws
of the United States of America, and to subscribe to the BSA statement
of religious principle. Is at least 21 years of age, and is registered
with the BSA as a pack trainer. It is recommended that the pack trainer
have at least one year of experience in a leadership position in Cub
Scouting, preferably as a Cub Scout or Webelos den leader. Pack trainers
should be trained at a district or council trainer development
conference. The pack committee selects the pack trainer with the
approval of the chartered organization. For new packs and those lacking
experienced leaders, an experienced leader from the district training
team or another pack may be appointed as pack trainer until the new
leaders gain experience.

Responsibilities:
The pack trainer is responsible for

     * Conducting orientation of new families and pack leaders. (See
       Chapter 10 of the Cub Scout Leader Book, "Den and Pack Management.")
     * Training each new leader and pack committee member for his or her
       specific position, using material provided by the BSA.
     * Helping with Unit Leadership Enhancements during pack leaders'
       meetings.
     * Conducting other training as designated by the district and/or
       council.
     * Encouraging pack leaders to attend ongoing training, such as
       roundtable, pow wow or University of Scouting, outdoor training,
       Youth Protection training, and Wood Badge.
     * Remaining current with training material and program updates.
     * Keeping track of pack training records.

The goal of the pack trainer is to have 100 percent of the pack
leadership trained in their position responsibilities. New leaders and
adult family members should receive orientation within one week of
joining the pack, and leaders should receive position-specific training
within 30 days.

<http://www.geocities.com/%7Epack215/pt.html#top>

Randy asked, "Does this idea give training chairmen heartburn or does it have
potential?" <snip?

Definitely heartburn!  However, that may be a local thing.  There are many, many
folks on our commissioner staff that I would NEVER recruit on my training team. 
The qualifications for the two jobs do not necessarily match.

<snip> Randy also asked, "While I am at it, there was discussion as to whether
Rountable was a Commissioner function or a training function. <snip>  Any
thoughts?"

Roundtable is described as Supplemental Training, so I have never understood why
it is part of the Commissioner function when all other supplemental training is
a training function.  Anyone else who can explain this?

Judy Yeager
NT District Training Chair
HOAC




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kris quotes from the Virtual Leader's Handbook the qualifications and
responsibilities of the Pack Trainer.  However, the information from the Virtual
Leader's Handbook does not agree with that found on the BSA National website in
publication 13-152:

The pack trainer is responsible for:

*Remaining current with training material and program updates.

*Conducting orientation of new families

*Providing Fast Start Training to new leaders.  (Fast Start Training can be used
as a recruiting tool.  The pack trainer should contact the new leader within two
or three days to review the information and answer questions.  Fast Start
Training can be completed by viewing the Fast Start video or DVD or by
completing the training on your council's Web site.)

*Conducting monthly Unit Leadership Enhancements

*Encouraging pack leaders to attend:
     a.  Cub Scout Leader Basic Training, which includes New Leader Essentials
Training and Cub Scout Leader Specific Training.
     b.  Youth Protection Training
     c.  Roundtable
     d.  Pow Wow (if conducted in your council)
     e.  BALOO
     f.  Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders
     g.  Wood Badge

*Encouraging den chiefs to attend Den Chief Training

*Maintaining pack training records

You will note that there is no mention of "Training each new leader and pack
committee member for his or her specific position, using material provided by
the BSA."

However, in that same publication under Position Summary, it states, "The pack
trainer conducts, or facilitates, the training of leaders and parents in the
pack.  The pack trainer promotes training to help leaders learn to plan and
conduct pack and den meetings and activities.  The pack trainer orients parents
and leaders and guides pack leaders in carrying out their apecific position
responsibilities."

I find this a little confusing, but although it says the PT "conducts, or
facilitates, the training of leaders and parents. . ." this summary does not
mention training each new leader for his/her specific position.

Training new leaders was originally part of the responsibilities of the PT, but
I do not believe it still is.

Judy Yeager
NT District Training Chair
HOAC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is from the original announcement of the Pack Trainer position
in Scouting Magazine:

"training each new leader and pack committee member for his or her
specific position, using material in the training manuals New Leader
Essentials (BSA No. 34870) and Cub Scout Leader Specific Training
(No. 34875). "

Frankly, I'm more afraid of the Pack Trainer position than I am of
the Commissioner's doing training.  I can see the Pack meeting now
with all of the new parents in attendance....."does anyone want to be
a Pack Trainer?"

And by making it a Commissioner responsibility, you have basic
training for troops and crews covered also.

Randy



--- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Judy Yeager <kcjscout@e...> wrote:
> Kris quotes from the Virtual Leader's Handbook the qualifications
and responsibilities of the Pack Trainer.  However, the information
from the Virtual Leader's Handbook does not agree with that found on
the BSA National website in publication 13-152:
>
> The pack trainer is responsible for:
>
> *Remaining current with training material and program updates.
>
> *Conducting orientation of new families
>
> *Providing Fast Start Training to new leaders.  (Fast Start
Training can be used as a recruiting tool.  The pack trainer should
contact the new leader within two or three days to review the
information and answer questions.  Fast Start Training can be
completed by viewing the Fast Start video or DVD or by completing the
training on your council's Web site.)
>
> *Conducting monthly Unit Leadership Enhancements
>
> *Encouraging pack leaders to attend:
>     a.  Cub Scout Leader Basic Training, which includes New Leader
Essentials Training and Cub Scout Leader Specific Training.
>     b.  Youth Protection Training
>     c.  Roundtable
>     d.  Pow Wow (if conducted in your council)
>     e.  BALOO
>     f.  Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders
>     g.  Wood Badge
>
> *Encouraging den chiefs to attend Den Chief Training
>
> *Maintaining pack training records
>
> You will note that there is no mention of "Training each new leader
and pack committee member for his or her specific position, using
material provided by the BSA."
>
> However, in that same publication under Position Summary, it
states, "The pack trainer conducts, or facilitates, the training of
leaders and parents in the pack.  The pack trainer promotes training
to help leaders learn to plan and conduct pack and den meetings and
activities.  The pack trainer orients parents and leaders and guides
pack leaders in carrying out their apecific position
responsibilities."
>
> I find this a little confusing, but although it says the
PT "conducts, or facilitates, the training of leaders and
parents. . ." this summary does not mention training each new leader
for his/her specific position.
>
> Training new leaders was originally part of the responsibilities of
the PT, but I do not believe it still is.
>
> Judy Yeager
> NT District Training Chair
> HOAC
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Cub Unit has the Pack Trainer who's job it is to provide immediate and
timely  fast start and hands on help.  The Pack Trainer as well as the  UC
should be directing the new leader to the first available full training in 
their
district.  They should also be part of the Training Team.  In  the fall our
Roundtables offer NLE, PST and YPT on successive Thursdays to train  the newly
recruited leader.  Our Unit commissioners should be cheerleaders  for the
District/Council training teams.  Yes they should become familiar  with the
training but they should also encourage a sharing of talents.   Scouters who are
widely exposed to other Scouters during training events build a  larger
community
and a team approach rather than a isolated unit by unit.   Convincing each
unit to participate in district and council wide events to help  support the
growth and development of the local scouting community is a major  commissioner
job.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary

Teri Stoel
Pack Trainer



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Why does your training staff only do training quarterly?  Our district training
staff does any type of training on demand.  We do set minimum numbers, and may
wait a little to get enough people to  take the training, but especially youth
protection, merit badge counsellor, NLE we will do it with only 2-3
participants.   Fast start should be done on the unit level- each unit should
have their own fast start tape.  Troop committee training we do unit by unit, so
each unit gets it with their own people, learning how they can help each other
and how they should work together.

As for RT as commissioner or training, it falls under commissioning service even
though it does have some  training aspects and is sometimes referred under 
"supplemental training".  However, if you look at how RTs are run, they are pack
or troop meetings.  The RT staff is assisting the unit leaders with ideas and
activities they can take back to their units.  The roundtable is not a
"training" teaching the unit leaders how to do their jobs.  You are helping to
strengthen the unit program with your experience and the resources national
supplies.

Sandy OWL

Our district uses the training committe to conduct training on a
continual basis. But, there are times when we use commissioners to
conduct NLE and leader specific training. It works for a district that
is primarily rural and spread out. So far as Pack Trainer, it is one
of those postitions that sounds great and looks great on paper, but
not always feasible.

Clif

While we are talking about Commissioners, what are some
ideas/resources in recruiting Unit Commissioners?
Also, what has worked in increasing attendance at Roundtable? Any
ideas are greatly appreciated.

New District Commissioner
Clif

This gives many training chairs extreme heartburn, as they have
little control over the commissioners or what is being taught.

        Personally I think it is a great idea for several reasons:

              It introduces the Commissioners to the new Scouters in a
friendly
                 setting, where they can serve as knowledge sources,
rather than
                 someone who may seem to be spying for council and district.

              It introduces the new Scouters to the Commissioners, so these
                  people aren't complete strangers when they see them around
                 the district or at Round Tables.
              It adds to the pool of training people, which relieves some
of the
                  stress from the regular trainers.

              It keeps the commissioners up do date on couses they are
teaching;
                  remember many commissioners have gaps in their
knowledge
                  depending on which Scouting program they originated.

              Although Round Table is presented as a source of additional
training
                    I feel it is a Commissioner function, especially as
the people
                    presenting the materials are Commissioners by their
definition.
                    They earn training awards as Commissioners,  they are
                    performing Commissioner functions, and they report to
                    a Commissioner higher up their local position wiring
                    chart, normally the RT Commissioners who report to
                    the District Commissioner.

        The one problem I see with my thoughts is that under this mind
set Commissioner training must be done by Commissioners, and NOT by
Training folks.  By and large when our Training people schedule a course
it usually runs as scheduled, but when our Commissioners even shedule a
training course for Commissioners it is frequently cancelled for lack of
participation.  Additionally, the paradigm of Commissioners training
Commissioners keeps Commissioner courses out of our University of
Scouting, which further limits the amount of Commissioner training that
is acomplished.

        This having been said, I feel that all Commissioners should
attend the Leader Specific Training for each of the Scouting programs so
they can get up to speed in the programs in which they have not worked,
and keep them up to speed in the programs from which they originated.
Attending the BSA 500 Trainer Development Course will give them that
much more aids and skills in training, aids that will help them perform
their Commissioner work.

        Dave
ADC & District BS Training Chair
Historic District
Daniel Webster Council

Randy Worcester wrote:

>
> At our last Commissioner meeting, the staff expressed interest in
> becoming the providers of beginning level training.  i.e. youth
> protection, leader essentials, fast start, committee training.  The
> feeling was that by bringing basic training to the unit, we could get
> more leaders trained, get leaders interested in further training, set
> up the Commissioner as an "expert", and hold training when needed as
> opposed to once a quarter.  The team requested a Trainer Development
> Conference for Commissioners.
>
> Does this idea give training chairmen heartburn or does it have
> potential?
>
> While I am at it, there was discussion as to whether Rountable was a
> Commissioner function or a training function.  The consensus seemed to
> be that it was a training function and that they should be part of the
> training team and not the Commissioner staff.  Any thoughts?
>
>
>
>
>
> For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
>   scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
>
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--
  To reply, click on the address below.

  Dave Loomis       mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
  245 Union St.  (603) 431 5342
  Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349

As Commissioner Recruiting is not a training topic, I will reply to
you directly.  Unless of course, anyone is aware of an active Yahoo
Commissioner Group.  If not, we can always start one!

Now on Roundtable attendance, I've found that it is not hard to get
people to come the first time.  The problem is getting them there a
second time.  OR getting them to come back later because they saw
little value in the Roundtable or had a negative experience.

Like a Boy Scout Troop where boys vote with their feet, leaders will
just not come back to a Roundtable that is not well run.  My
experience is that if you fix the Roundtable by offering a good
program, word gets around and "they will come".

Randy

--- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Clif" <rcbcranch@s...> wrote:
>
>
> While we are talking about Commissioners, what are some
> ideas/resources in recruiting Unit Commissioners?
> Also, what has worked in increasing attendance at Roundtable? Any
> ideas are greatly appreciated.
>
> New District Commissioner
> Clif

In a message dated 4/17/05 10:32:54 AM, randywoo@... writes:


> At our last Commissioner meeting, the staff expressed interest in
> becoming the providers of beginning level training.  i.e. youth
> protection, leader essentials, fast start, committee training.  The
> feeling was that by bringing basic training to the unit, we could get
> more leaders trained, get leaders interested in further training, set
> up the Commissioner as an "expert", and hold training when needed as
> opposed to once a quarter.  The team requested a Trainer Development
> Conference for Commissioners.
>
> Does this idea give training chairmen heartburn or does it have
> potential?
>

Interesting question, Randy.    As with many things in Scouting,   there is
the way that the book says things should be.    Then there is the way that
things are in your district/council when you consider the people involved.    As
a
former training chairman and former Commissioner,    I have seen it done both
ways very effectively.

One problem that I have with the Commissioners being trainers   is that they
have unique jobs to do as Commissioners (meaningful contact once a month) and
if they are worried about being trainers,   it may be a reason or an excuse
not to do the job as a Commissioner.    I also have concern that trainers are
supposed to be familiar with the most current training course guides and
training methods.    Commissioners might not be that familiar.    A unit
Commissioner
might cover both a Pack and a Troop and would need to be a training level
expert on both Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting.

In the best of all possible worlds,   there would be a Commissioner staff whic
h does the Commissioner job.    There would be a training team which conducts
training courses on a regular schedule.  And there would be a training "SWAT"
team which would provide training, as needed, in individual units.    There
might be some members of the training teams, and of the training SWAT team
whose primary job is Commissioner.

We rarely are in the best of all possible worlds.    So having Commissioners
prepared and planning to training to cover individual units is probably a very
good idea.    But I would not automatically charter Commissioners to conduct
training.    Rather,   as they requested,   I would hold the Trainer
Development Conference for them and then, on an individual basis,   certify the
Commissioners to conduct training.

Some of the training that you mentioned is pretty straightforward.    YPT and
Fast Start are on line.    The Commissioner can bring his or her laptop,
dial in,   and walk the leader through the training.    The Troop Committee
Challenge is easily done by one person.

So I would suggest that it is probably a very good idea for Commissioners to
conduct training on an ad hoc basis in units.    However,   it is important
that the Commissioner's primary job be done first.

Best wishes,

Neil Lupton


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave, I am normally in agreement with you.  However, your thoughts
are that they should remain commissioners because they are currently
by definition, commissioners.  Let's think outside the box and
pretend that we could remake the District Organization.  If they were
not historically commissioners, we would probably call them Trainers.
So let's not stand on tradition and go ahead and make them a part of
the training committee.

My experience is that Roundtable Commissioners do not really think of
themselves as Commissioners either.  Ours never attend Commissioner
Meetings.

Let's hear from some Roundtable Commissioners.

Randy

--- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Dave Loomis <dloomis@n...> wrote:
>       >
>              Although Round Table is presented as a source of
additional
> training
>                    I feel it is a Commissioner function, especially
as
> the people
>                    presenting the materials are Commissioners by
their
> definition.
>                    They earn training awards as Commissioners,
they are
>                    performing Commissioner functions, and they
report to
>                    a Commissioner higher up their local position
wiring
>                    chart, normally the RT Commissioners who report
to
>                    the District Commissioner.
>
>        The one problem I see with my thoughts is that under this
mind
> set Commissioner training must be done by Commissioners, and NOT by
> Training folks.  By and large when our Training people schedule a
course
> it usually runs as scheduled, but when our Commissioners even
shedule a
> training course for Commissioners it is frequently cancelled for
lack of
> participation.  Additionally, the paradigm of Commissioners
training
> Commissioners keeps Commissioner courses out of our University of
> Scouting, which further limits the amount of Commissioner training
that
> is acomplished.
>
>        This having been said, I feel that all Commissioners should
> attend the Leader Specific Training for each of the Scouting
programs so
> they can get up to speed in the programs in which they have not
worked,
> and keep them up to speed in the programs from which they
originated.
> Attending the BSA 500 Trainer Development Course will give them
that
> much more aids and skills in training, aids that will help them
perform
> their Commissioner work.
>
>        Dave
> ADC & District BS Training Chair
> Historic District
> Daniel Webster Council
>
> > >
> >
>
> --
>  To reply, click on the address below.
>
>  Dave Loomis       mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@r...
>  245 Union St.  (603) 431 5342
>  Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349

I agree with you Randy.  Many of our commissioners are used for training
purposes- they are our extras when we need them.  Many times they help out with
the training when one of my district trainers can't be there.  The pack trainer,
I think, is a mistake when it  comes to NLE, YP, etc.  Then the training team 
and council has no control on the  quality of the training being presented.  For
them to show fast start and guide the leaders to training sessions, great.  To
give the training, no way!

Sandy OWL

Randy Worcester <randywoo@...> wrote:

This is from the original announcement of the Pack Trainer position
in Scouting Magazine:

"training each new leader and pack committee member for his or her
specific position, using material in the training manuals New Leader
Essentials (BSA No. 34870) and Cub Scout Leader Specific Training
(No. 34875). "

Frankly, I'm more afraid of the Pack Trainer position than I am of
the Commissioner's doing training.  I can see the Pack meeting now
with all of the new parents in attendance....."does anyone want to be
a Pack Trainer?"

And by making it a Commissioner responsibility, you have basic
training for troops and crews covered also.

Randy


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm a RT  commissioner besides a trainer.  My husband is a unit commissioner
besides RT and training.  My son is BS RT Commissioner besides trainer.  I think
you will probably find that the people who are active enough to do roundtable
probably also are active enough to be trainers too.  And it  works out very
well.  In many ways their roles overlap each other.  Some of my rt staff are
trainers too.  Others are active in planning district activities.  The same on
the BS side of the story.  We usually recruit our new trainers from those who
attend RT.

This way too we are sure that announcements about upcoming training sessions and
training questions are addressed as needed at the RTs.

Sandy OWL
Randy Worcester <randywoo@...> wrote:

Dave, I am normally in agreement with you.  However, your thoughts
are that they should remain commissioners because they are currently
by definition, commissioners.  Let's think outside the box and
pretend that we could remake the District Organization.  If they were
not historically commissioners, we would probably call them Trainers.
So let's not stand on tradition and go ahead and make them a part of
the training committee.

My experience is that Roundtable Commissioners do not really think of
themselves as Commissioners either.  Ours never attend Commissioner
Meetings.

Let's hear from some Roundtable Commissioners.

Randy

--- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Dave Loomis <dloomis@n...> wrote:
>       >
>              Although Round Table is presented as a source of
additional
> training
>                    I feel it is a Commissioner function, especially
as
> the people
>                    presenting the materials are Commissioners by
their
> definition.
>                    They earn training awards as Commissioners,
they are
>                    performing Commissioner functions, and they
report to
>                    a Commissioner higher up their local position
wiring
>                    chart, normally the RT Commissioners who report
to
>                    the District Commissioner.
>
>        The one problem I see with my thoughts is that under this
mind
> set Commissioner training must be done by Commissioners, and NOT by
> Training folks.  By and large when our Training people schedule a
course
> it usually runs as scheduled, but when our Commissioners even
shedule a
> training course for Commissioners it is frequently cancelled for
lack of
> participation.  Additionally, the paradigm of Commissioners
training
> Commissioners keeps Commissioner courses out of our University of
> Scouting, which further limits the amount of Commissioner training
that
> is acomplished.
>
>        This having been said, I feel that all Commissioners should
> attend the Leader Specific Training for each of the Scouting
programs so
> they can get up to speed in the programs in which they have not
worked,
> and keep them up to speed in the programs from which they
originated.
> Attending the BSA 500 Trainer Development Course will give them
that
> much more aids and skills in training, aids that will help them
perform
> their Commissioner work.
>
>        Dave
> ADC & District BS Training Chair
> Historic District
> Daniel Webster Council
>
> > >
> >
>
> --
>  To reply, click on the address below.
>
>  Dave Loomis       mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@r...
>  245 Union St.  (603) 431 5342
>  Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I find it interesting that many people feel that the commissioner staff should
not be involved in training. In the Commissioner Fieldbook for Unit Service
(pub 33621E), service to new units includes "follow up if unit leaders missed
Fast Start or basic training. Provide the missing sessions if they cannot go
to district courses. Tailor the training to the unit."

For any commissioner to be able to do this task, they should know and
understand the training needed and be well versed in it. Being well-trained
should be a requirement of every commissioner. Many of my district's
commissioners (including Roundtable) are active members of our district and
council training teams.  In a district like mine (you cannot drive from one
end to the other and back the same day) we all must work together. We are a
team.

- Eric
Island District Commissioner
Mt Baker Council

On 4/18/2005, "Sandra Martens" <sandyowl1@...> wrote:

>
>I'm a RT  commissioner besides a trainer.  My husband is a unit commissioner
besides RT and training.  My son is BS RT Commissioner besides trainer.  I
think you will probably find that the people who are active enough to do
roundtable probably also are active enough to be trainers too.  And it  works
out very well.  In many ways their roles overlap each other.  Some of my rt
staff are trainers too.  Others are active in planning district activities.
The same on the BS side of the story.  We usually recruit our new trainers
from those who attend RT.
>
>This way too we are sure that announcements about upcoming training sessions
and training questions are addressed as needed at the RTs.
>
>Sandy OWL
>Randy Worcester <randywoo@...> wrote:
>
>Dave, I am normally in agreement with you.  However, your thoughts
>are that they should remain commissioners because they are currently
>by definition, commissioners.  Let's think outside the box and
>pretend that we could remake the District Organization.  If they were
>not historically commissioners, we would probably call them Trainers.
>So let's not stand on tradition and go ahead and make them a part of
>the training committee.
>
>My experience is that Roundtable Commissioners do not really think of
>themselves as Commissioners either.  Ours never attend Commissioner
>Meetings.
>
>Let's hear from some Roundtable Commissioners.
>
>Randy
>
>--- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Dave Loomis <dloomis@n...> wrote:
>>       >
>>              Although Round Table is presented as a source of
>additional
>> training
>>                    I feel it is a Commissioner function, especially
>as
>> the people
>>                    presenting the materials are Commissioners by
>their
>> definition.
>>                    They earn training awards as Commissioners,
>they are
>>                    performing Commissioner functions, and they
>report to
>>                    a Commissioner higher up their local position
>wiring
>>                    chart, normally the RT Commissioners who report
>to
>>                    the District Commissioner.
>>
>>        The one problem I see with my thoughts is that under this
>mind
>> set Commissioner training must be done by Commissioners, and NOT by
>> Training folks.  By and large when our Training people schedule a
>course
>> it usually runs as scheduled, but when our Commissioners even
>shedule a
>> training course for Commissioners it is frequently cancelled for
>lack of
>> participation.  Additionally, the paradigm of Commissioners
>training
>> Commissioners keeps Commissioner courses out of our University of
>> Scouting, which further limits the amount of Commissioner training
>that
>> is acomplished.
>>
>>        This having been said, I feel that all Commissioners should
>> attend the Leader Specific Training for each of the Scouting
>programs so
>> they can get up to speed in the programs in which they have not
>worked,
>> and keep them up to speed in the programs from which they
>originated.
>> Attending the BSA 500 Trainer Development Course will give them
>that
>> much more aids and skills in training, aids that will help them
>perform
>> their Commissioner work.
>>
>>        Dave
>> ADC & District BS Training Chair
>> Historic District
>> Daniel Webster Council
>>
>> > >
>> >
>>
>> --
>>  To reply, click on the address below.
>>
>>  Dave Loomis       mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@r...
>>  245 Union St.  (603) 431 5342
>>  Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
>
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Randy wrote...

> At our last Commissioner meeting, the staff expressed interest in
> becoming the providers of beginning level training.  i.e. youth
> protection, leader essentials, fast start, committee training.
> The feeling was that by bringing basic training to the unit, we
> could get more leaders trained, get leaders interested in further
> training, set up the Commissioner as an "expert", and hold
> training when needed as opposed to once a quarter.  The team
> requested a Trainer Development Conference for Commissioners.
>
> Does this idea give training chairmen heartburn or does it have
> potential?

I just signed on tonight after being off 2 days (or was it only
one?) and have seen there are a lot of replies to this that I
haven't read.

I will say this:  Our DTC wouldn't turn down the National Exec
himself is offered.  If you can help, he's love to have you.

BTW, this one is just after the DTC who basically said " you offer
to help, I'll tell you what to help with", and broke up some good
training teams and relationships.

> While I am at it, there was discussion as to whether Rountable
> was a Commissioner function or a training function.  The
> consensus seemed to be that it was a training function and that
> they should be part of the training team and not the Commissioner
> staff.  Any thoughts?

Both.  They are trainers, as well as commissioners.  Whether you
see it or not, a lot of training work goes in to the RT
presentations.  Also, as National has now defined RT as being one
level of continuous training, I believe they should also be
regarded as trainers.

YiS,

Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az.    -----    mailto:antelope95@...
I "used to be" an Antelope!                   WEM-10-95 Member DNRC
Firebird District Committee Member at Large -- Grand Canyon Council
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                                                 -- Stephen R. Covey
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Come on over to the Commissioner Yahoo group for more discussion!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Scout_Commissioner/

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Randy Worcester
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 4:44 PM
To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Unit Commissioner

As Commissioner Recruiting is not a training topic, I will reply to
you directly.  Unless of course, anyone is aware of an active Yahoo
Commissioner Group.  If not, we can always start one!

<snip>

--- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Clif" <rcbcranch@s...> wrote:
>
>
> While we are talking about Commissioners, what are some
> ideas/resources in recruiting Unit Commissioners?
> Also, what has worked in increasing attendance at Roundtable? Any
> ideas are greatly appreciated.
>
> New District Commissioner
> Clif

I have no "inside information" to back up what I am about to say, and
may be "drawn and quartered" for saying it, but here goes:

It seems to me that the whole dilemna of Commissioners vs. Training
Committee is the result of a turf war that couldn't be resolved at a
National level and has filtered down to the District level. It has
obviously caused much confusion as to who does what. Unit and
Roundtable Commissioners (Registered positions) report directly to
the District Comissioner while Trainers and Training Chairmen (non-
registered ad-hoc positions)report to the District Chairman.

I am of the perhaps heretical school of thought that Commissioners
and Trainers both exist to provide unit service under all
circumstances. Yes, UC's are responsible for many other duties than
the training committee, but they are the people with direct unit
contact.

Many times I have seen trainers talk about "them" (Commissioners) as
being ineffective when reviewing Unit trained numbers. If we place
roadblocks in the way of Commissioners regarding training, we
eliminate one outstanding source of assistance. Commissioners have
the eternal battle of appearing to be a friend and someone who
provides value to the units, as opposed to being "that guy from
District" who spies on us. If commissioners were empowered to
organize and deliver training (in coordination with the training
committee) we'd accomplish two very important things: Commissioners
would have an easier time being a friend and resource to the units
and the trained numbers would increase dramatically.

I also think we would see an increase in the people willing to become
commissioners and would retain them longer. There is nothing more
frustrating to a volunteer than fighting the uphill battle of wanting
to be a friend and resource and being viewed with suspicion.  Give
them something of value to go into a unit with and everyone wins.

Just one man's opinion.

Chris Finnegan
Bucks County Council, PA

Commissioner Group:

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-----Original Message-----
From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
Of Randy Worcester
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 7:44 PM
To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Unit Commissioner



As Commissioner Recruiting is not a training topic, I will reply to
you directly.  Unless of course, anyone is aware of an active Yahoo
Commissioner Group.  If not, we can always start one!


Randy





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<Randy Worcester wrote:>
My experience is that Roundtable Commissioners do not really think of
themselves as Commissioners either.  Ours never attend Commissioner
Meetings.  Let's hear from some Roundtable Commissioners.
</Randy>

I am a Roundtable Commissioner.  If the RT Commissioners are missing the
Commissioner meetings, they are not doing an important part of their job.
Commissioner meetings, like District Committee meetings, are where current
needs and problems of the District and its units are discussed, priorities
are set, plans are made, and motivation and inspiration dished out in large
quantities.  Roundtable isn't a self-contained program, but is an integral
part of the District's "toolbox" and should contribute on an ongoing basis
to the accomplishment of the District's plans and priorities.

Dan Kurtenbach
Fairfax, VA

Lots of discussion.  My two cents worth.

In my time as an adult leader, I have seldom seen any
commissioner, other than RT commissioners and one
District Commisioner(serving as Registrar) at any
training event.

I love commissioners.  They do some very good things
for us.  Their job descriptions include such things as
being stop-gap trainers when a leader can't get to
district training events.  Most do a very good job.
There are some others I wouldn't trust to present a
single training session.  These have demonstrated no
willingness to spout anything other than, "When I was
the Scoutmaster here...."

Frankly I would love to see more commissioners on the
training teams.  Heck, I'd just like to see them at
the training sessions.  But I haven't.

Granted my experience is anecdotal insofar as it is
what I have experienced.  It is, I fear, not unique.
I would prefer to see commissioners participate in
several normal training sessions before turning them
loose on units.  Of course I would want to see ANY
trainer do several training sessions before turning
them loose on units.

It's just a good practice to ensure trainers are good
trainers, that they know the material and have
demonstrated the ability and willingness to stick to
the syllabus before turning them loose.

Daniel D. Hammond, Sr. MA(HRD)
Leavenworth, KS, Army Major(Ret),  Overtrained Scout Leader,
Kaw District Activity Chairman,
CM P3001, SA T366, NRA Life Member
|<--W-W-W--<<<|  Mic-O-Say HW "Big Quick Steel"
I Used to be an Owl... (W-CS-44)
And a good old staffer too (C-34-04)

Cheerful Service; because it's the right thing to do



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Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
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Dan wrote...

[snip]
> I am a Roundtable Commissioner.  If the RT Commissioners are
> missing the Commissioner meetings, they are not doing an
> important part of their job.

While I'm not a _registered_ RT commissioner (long story there), I
am active on the staff and have done fill-in work for several
years.

I also have a few thoughts on the Commissioner meeting:
1. Lots of stuff that I found irrelevant to RT.
2. I heard the same stuff later at the District Committee meeting.
3. My District set the time as 6:30 PM on District Committee
    Meeting night.  DCM starts at 7.  I don't get home from work
    until 5-5:30 PM.

While I'm not necessarily on a "strict diet", I do need to eat
regularly because of some of my medications.  Eating supper after 9
PM is neither good for my health, nor good for my diet.  (I'll
snack.)

> Commissioner meetings, like District Committee meetings, are
> where current needs and problems of the District and its units
> are discussed, priorities are set, plans are made, and motivation
> and inspiration dished out in large quantities.

Most of the motivation and inspiration I've seen lately has been
directed toward meeting our District FOS goals, and recruiting more
UCs.  That was true of the several (~1 program year) of CMs that I
attended.

> Roundtable isn't a self-contained program, but is an integral
> part of the District's "toolbox" and should contribute on an
> ongoing basis to the accomplishment of the District's plans and
> priorities.

True.  But RT is ineffective as much of anything unless there is a
strong program, and well communicated purpose.

30 minutes of Announcements followed by a 40 minute breakout is not
really an effective way to get leaders back.  Years ago, here, the
BSRT program was much better.  In the 1.5 hours, there was the
opening, 5-10 minutes of announcements, and 2 30 minute programs.

We've not had the space since to do that.

In order to attract attendees and sustain attendance, both the RTs
and the Commissioners Meetings must have a relevant, interesting,
and useful program.

I think that's the biggest problem.

YiS,

Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az.    -----    mailto:antelope95@...
I "used to be" an Antelope!                 --            WEM-10-95
Thunderbird District                        -- Grand Canyon Council
Committee Member at Large, Roundtable Staff --          Member DNRC
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                                                 -- Stephen R. Covey
-------------------------------------------------------------------

All I want to say is this about Commissioners vs
Training Committee.

Every single training session I have taken as a
commissioner, including woodbadge, has said that a
commissioner is a commissioner, and that they
shouldn't be taking on other responsibilities.

I agree with this.  Once you start doing other things,
commissioner work starts taking a back burner.

Let each committee do their jobs.  By taking on their
responsibilities you are enabling them to be slackers.

Just my two cents worth.  I have watched it happen
time and again.

George



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As a member of a Scoutmaster training team, and now the district Boy
Scout training chair I wish to add my perspective on this.

I think that we need to avoid having commissioners doing too much
training.  I do not think they should be in charge of any particular
training session.

However, I will recruit and use any Scout person that is qualified to
teach for a small portion of my training.  If that means I have a
commissioner teach a couple of sessions of the Scourmaster training, so
be it.  This does not take them away from their job as commissioner if
they are not in charge, and if they do not have too much to teach.

I just had a training last week, in which the RT commissioner came for
about an two hours and taught 2 of the sessions to the Scoutmasters.
She did a wonderful job, and it introduced her and roundtable to the
participants in the course.

Brian
Tooele, UT

<Chuck Bramlet wrote:>
1. Lots of stuff that I found irrelevant to RT.
</Chuck>

Everything that has to do with how the units are operating and what is
happening in the district that might be of interest to units or affect units
is something that is relevant to Roundtable.  Roundtable is the only regular
district-wide meeting for unit leaders.  It is the vortex for District
communication and interaction with units.  The Roundtable Commissioners are
at the hub of the district, and have a responsibility to know what is going
on.

<Chuck continued:>
2. I heard the same stuff later at the District Committee meeting.
</Chuck>

As you should, if you go to both meetings.  A lot of people don't go to
both.

<Chuck continued:>
3. My District set the time as 6:30 PM on District Committee
    Meeting night.  DCM starts at 7.
</Chuck>

Well, this is a formula for failure, as your Key 3 should know.  The
Commissioners meeting should be at a convenient time, with enough time for
the Commissioners to do their work.

<Chuck continued:>
Most of the motivation and inspiration I've seen lately has been
directed toward meeting our District FOS goals, and recruiting more
UCs.  That was true of the several (~1 program year) of CMs that I
attended. * * * 30 minutes of Announcements [at RT] followed by a 40 minute
breakout is not
really an effective way to get leaders back.
</Chuck>

Yes, there are districts where the Commissioner Corps isn't getting it done.
That doesn't mean that Commissioners generally are useless, anymore than all
trainers are useless because some district Training Committee isn't offering
needed training, or that FOS is a terrible program because some district is
"All FOS All The Time."  There are lots of places where things work well,
where Commissioners do their thing and the Training Committee does its thing
and Roundtable is fun and well-attended.

Dan Kurtenbach
Fairfax, VA

Heartburn, no.  Hope that it is done well, yes.  I would most
certainly be in favor of a broader pool of skilled trainers.

Two potential issues:
1. Isolated trainers.
2. Not every Commissioner would make a good trainer for Cubs.

Having Commissioners out on their own doing isolated trainings doesn't
give the Commissioners regular feedback and there isn't a quality
control mechanism.  For instance; we had a couple Commissioners that
felt very strongly that Webelos Dens should start calling themselves
Patrols when they went to tan.  Training in a team situation gives us
the opportunity for regular cross-sharing of ideas, techniques, and
issues, plus the ability to catch any deviations from the BSA
program.

Lone trainers would not be good.  I would want my Commissioner to
participate once in a while as part of my regular training team.

Cub training is about sharing enthusiasm and energy for dealing with
enthusiastic and energetic bundles of Cubs.  Commissioners that have
come out of the Boy Scouting world or who have left behind the Cub
world years ago may not make good Cub trainers.

Hmm...  Maybe the Commissioners should serve as Den Leaders for a year
as part of their accreditation process. :-)

My $.02.

- Chad
District Training, Indianhead Council
Apple Valley, MN

--- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Worcester" <randywoo@a...>
wrote:
>
> At our last Commissioner meeting, the staff expressed interest in
> becoming the providers of beginning level training.  i.e. youth
> protection, leader essentials, fast start, committee training.  The
> feeling was that by bringing basic training to the unit, we could
get
> more leaders trained, get leaders interested in further training,
set
> up the Commissioner as an "expert", and hold training when needed
as
> opposed to once a quarter.  The team requested a Trainer
Development
> Conference for Commissioners.
>
> Does this idea give training chairmen heartburn or does it have
> potential?

Bertwin Lussenburg, The Netherlands (Holland)
IBC-no. 705/89, bertwinlussenburg@...

Hello Fellow Scouts and Scouters,

Check out my website: http://home.wanadoo.nl/bertwinlussenburg

I collect world scouting membership badges, flag badges, national
strips, national badges, promise badges and contingent badges from
the 18th World Jamboree in Holland in 1995 (we call them badges in
Holland and many of you call them patches).

I do not collect CSPīs.

For Trade, I have plenty of badges from around the world, contingent
badges from the 1995 World Jamboree in Holland and scout books, scout
calendars etc.

I am also trying to collect all foreign translations of Baden-
Powell's book 'Scouting for Boys'. If you have any version to trade
EXCEPT the Arab (Lebanese issue), Australian, Brazilian, Canadian,
Catalonian, Chinese-Mandarin, Colombian, Danish, Dutch, English,
Finnish, French, German, Hungarian, Indian, Italian, Japanese,
Korean, Malaysian, Mexican, Nepalese, Polish, Portuguese, Spanish,
Swedish, Swiss and Welsh version, I invite you to write me.

I hope you will be trading with me soon.

Bertwin Lussenburg, The Netherlands (Holland)
E-mail: bertwinlussenburg@...

I have heard some mention and advanced track for TDC.  Can some of you
who have this sent me some syllabus or outlines for this?

Thanks
Kris

Hello all

I am wondering how you all keep your trainers sharp.

How to make sure they cover the syllabus, don't go to off tangent, make
sure their information is correct, that they give bathroom breaks, are
in full uniform, etc...

In theory, good trainers do all of the above anyway, but I recently
became aware of a trainer who does none of the above and has been
proceeding like that for years.  The situation is fixed, but I am now
wondering how it was not caught before and more importantly, what I can
do to prevent it from happening in the future.

Thanks
Kris