Hmm.  What an interesting question.  I assume that the 'white' of linen would
have actually been an undyed, unbleached (although I seem to recall that the
Europeans used milk, among other bleaching agents, if I remember some
conversations between dyers...??) tone - not an actual 'white' as we know it
today...



I've purchased tea-dyed cottons for my chemises; of course, my persona is North
African and would have had access to Egyptian cotton.  I do know of several
SCA'ers in this area who argue (effectively, in my opinion...) that Europeans
possibly had access to Egyptian cotton, too, as many of the trade routes into
Europe passed near or through Egypt - that's by-land caravan routes, as opposed
to by-sea.



I still have to do a LOT of research on the Egyptian trade routes - both by land
and by sea - as that pertains to my North African persona.  Does anyone out
there have info on said trade routes, cotton, and the possibility that it was
available to Europeans - probably in later period???



Just to muddle the issue, though...  I have a photo in my "SCA Garb" file,
however, that shows an Egyptian chemise or garment from WAAAAY pre-period Egypt
[approx 1000 BC, if I remember without looking it up right now] - made from
linen.  If I recall correctly - and again, if anyone could provide information,
please?? - cotton wasn't actually developed, even in Egypt, until later
periods...???



Having said that, I suspect that the chemises weren't always 'white' or
off-white.  White was a 'status' color, though, so for most 'status' outfits,
an off-white chemise would probably be a pretty good bet.  I am SO tempted to
use other colors for chemises, however...



Would a pale gray, pale beige, pale blue/blue-gray color fit into earlier
'period' garb for, say, European, North African, or Middle Eastern garb???



Thanks for raising this interesting question, Cailin!  Ziddina
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cailin Mac Kinnach" <cailin.sca@...>
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, sylvanglen@yahoogroups.com,
TirYsgithr@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2009 7:47:48 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...

 




This may be a silly question, but I thought i'd ask. Was silver a
viable color for an under dress, in period? Or were the almost all
white, or some dyeable color?

For refference, I'm working on the pattern that is represented by the
picture of Wanda P. on this page:
http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/pp21-ex.htm

Thanks for your time,

Cailin/Ken



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ziddina wrote:
>  I assume that the 'white' of linen would have actually been an
> undyed, unbleached (although I seem to recall that the Europeans
> used milk, among other bleaching agents, if I remember some
> conversations between dyers...??) tone - not an actual 'white' as
> we know it today...

No; "white" means 'white'.  Not "optic white", which indicates a
white fabric that has reflective particles imbedded in it to make it
essentially glow when exposed to light (that "whiter than white" the
Clorox corporation promises its customers), but plain old everyday
white.  It is almost without exception the color of all types of
underwear seen in European manuscripts produced in the S.C.A's core
period, whether the individuals represented are kings or beggars.  It
is also the color of all the surviving medieval and Renaissance
shirts and shifts of which I've seen photos or read descriptions.

Linen can be whitened in a number of ways without chemicals that
weren't available before 1600.  The most widely used is the simple
exposure of damp linen to direct sunlight.  In period there were
designated communal bleaching greens in many villages, and large
estates often had their own.  They were used not only to whiten new
fabric but to restore the whiteness of linen goods that had yellowed
or to keep white linen white.  (David Teniers the Younger's
"Bleaching Ground" <http://www.abcgallery.com/T/teniers/
teniers6.html>, painted about 45 years after the end of the S.C.A's
period, shows a village bleaching green in action.)  There were also
professionals who used large bleaching greens, often in conjunction
with various treatments that enhanced the effects of field-bleaching,
to whiten quantities of new linen that were then passed on to
clothiers and fabric-mongers.  (There's an account of some techniques
used in 16th-century Germany on page 131 of _The Workplace before the
Factory_, as part of Thomas Max Safley's "Production, Transaction,
and Proletarianization: The Textile Industry in Upper Swabia,
1580-1660" <http://books.google.com/books?id=m-
YDD2_ykGsC&pg=PA131>.)  If I had to guess, I'd say those who could
afford to bought professionally whitened fabric and used their local
bleaching greens to maintain it, rather than starting with "brown
linen" and bleaching their own.  The latter process isn't
particularly difficult, but it is slow and requires a fair amount of
attention.

> I suspect that the chemises weren't always 'white' or off-white.
> White was a 'status' color, though, so for most 'status' outfits,
> an off-white chemise would probably be a pretty good bet.  I am SO
> tempted to use other colors for chemises, however...

I'm not clear on what basis you declare, "White was a 'status'
color. . .," or to which culture and period you're referring when you
do.

In addition to the representational and archaeological evidence that
underclothes were pretty much universally white across Europe between
600 and 1600, there are a couple of obvious logical reasons they
would've been.

1)  White fabric is comparatively easy to clean.  You can soak it,
boil it, and expose it to harsh cleaners without worrying about dyes
that might run, shift, or fade.  And you can just re-bleach it if you
find you've got uneven shades resulting from intensive stain-removal
treatments.  So for garments you're going to sweat on and maybe spot
with other bodily excretions, white's a smart choice.

2)  Compared to coloring wool or silk (Europe's other mainstay
fabrics in period), coloring linen as it was colored in period is
*hard*.  It just doesn't make much sense to go to the extra trouble
and expense necessary to do it if you're only going to cover it up.
Coloring outer layers made of a more easily dyed fiber gives you a
much, much bigger bang for your buck.

> Would a pale gray, pale beige, pale blue/blue-gray color fit into
> earlier 'period' garb for, say, European, North African, or Middle
> Eastern garb???

All those colors seem plausible for some types of garments worn in
some of those places at some times during the S.C.A's period of
interest.  If you narrow the question down to a particular garment
worn in a specific time, place, and culture, someone here may be able
to help you find a good answer to it.  But at the moment, it's too
vague to elicit one.


Coblaith Muimnech
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Kingdom of Ansteorra
<mailto:Coblaith@...>
<http://coblaith.net>

Ziddina wrote:
> Does anyone out there have info on. . .cotton, and the possibility
> that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???

There's a good article on the European adoption of what we now call
cotton from The Costume Dabbler <http://des.kyhm.com/cotton>.  It
includes a bibliography useful for those who want more in-depth
information.


Coblaith Muimnech
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Kingdom of Ansteorra
<mailto:Coblaith@...>
<http://coblaith.net>

--- On Sun, 8/11/09, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith@...> wrote:    
Ziddina wrote:
> Does anyone out there have info on. . .cotton, and the possibility
> that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???

There's a good article on the European adoption of what we now call
cotton from The Costume Dabbler <http://des.kyhm. com/cotton>.  It
includes a bibliography useful for those who want more in-depth
information.


COMMENT
entles All,
I've just got my hands on Lists of Materials supplied by the English "Great
Wardrobe" in the first year of King Henry VII's reign - Aug,1485 to Aug 1486.
The Wardrobe supplied linen for shirts and for lining other garments. but AFAIR.
"cotton" was only supplied once or twice, against probably an hundred entries
for buying/ supplying linen. And the most of the linen noted in these period
manuscripts is obviously from Flanders - being named as "holand, or flemsysch,
or braban" - with differing prices per ell, which make it clear that thwe names
refer to different qualities of linen cloth.
I recall noting that the price of cotton cloth  from the Wardrobe costs about
the same as the "holand" linen per ell ; but whether that denotes differing
quality or differing width per piece, I didn't discover - because I was
targeting the supply of other textiles within the Lists - skarlets, chamlet,
sarcenet, &c. What does seem to be clear is that the cotton was imported from
further-away from England than the Flanders linen; which would naturally have
increased the price, whatever the width/length  per piece.

Servus,
 Matthewe Baker.

<<-----Original Message-----
From: Ziddinaaitzumar@...
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Nov 7, 2009 7:41 pm
Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...








Hmm.  What an interesting question.  I assume that the 'white' of linen would
have actually been an undyed, unbleached (although I seem to recall that the
Europeans used milk, among other bleaching agents, if I remember some
conversations between dyers...??) tone - not an actual 'white' as we know it
today...

Having said that, I suspect that the chemises weren't always 'white' or
off-white.  White was a 'status' color, though, so for most 'status' outfits, an
off-white chemise would probably be a pretty good bet.  I am SO tempted to use
other colors for chemises, however... >>

I have been told, although I have not tried it, that linen can bleached simply
by washing it and laying it on the grass in the sun to dry.  If that is in fact
the case, virtually anyone could have access to white linen.  The fact of one's
linen being white as a status symbol also refers to the fact that the owner had
either enough chemises to always have a clean one available, or had the
opportunity/servants to launder said chemises.

Brangwayna Morgan
Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
Lancaster, PA






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Matthewe Bake wrote:
> I've just got my hands on Lists of Materials supplied by the
> English "Great Wardrobe" in the first year of King Henry VII's
> reign - Aug,1485 to Aug 1486.
> The Wardrobe supplied linen for shirts and for lining other
> garments.. . .the most of the linen noted in these period
> manuscripts is obviously from Flanders - being named as "holand, or
> flemsysch, or braban" - with differing prices per ell, which make
> it clear that thwe names refer to different qualities of linen cloth.

It's not necessarily linen from the Low Countries.  It might be linen
sent to the Low Countries for finishing and then returned to England,
or linen finished in the British Isles using processes associated
with the Low Countries <http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?
compid=58793> <http://books.google.com/books?id=Z8soAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA241>.


Coblaith Muimnech
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Kingdom of Ansteorra
<mailto:Coblaith@...>
<http://coblaith.net>

Hi all

I've been following the chat about cotton and linen.    What I would like to
know is where can I find information about the patterned material that was worn
around the late 1200's to early 1300's.

I would really like to make something with a pattern rather than the plain linen
kirtle I managed to put together for our 12 Tourney.

Many thanks
Lady Merwyn aka Penny

Hi (again)

OK, knowing just how little I do about sewing I am now ready to give in and buy
a dress ready to wear.

I live in Australia but am willing to buy from overseas but am weary of doing so
without advice as I see costumes made of Satin or stretch velvet and with gold
trim etc.

Many thanks
Lady Merwyn aka Penny

Lady Merwyn wrote:
> What I would like to know is where can I find information about the
> patterned material that was worn around the late 1200's to early
> 1300's.

I'd contact the Complex Weavers' Guild's Medieval Textiles Study
Group <http://www.medievaltextiles.org/>.  I'm betting they could at
least point you to some good resources.


Coblaith Muimnech
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Kingdom of Ansteorra
<mailto:Coblaith@...>
<http://coblaith.net>

Lady Merwyn wrote:
> . . .I am now ready to give in and buy a dress ready to wear.
>
> I live in Australia but am willing to buy from overseas. . .

Historic Enterprises is an excellent source <http://
www.historicenterprises.com/>.  They give details on the bases for
all of their designs on the site, so you can determine whether they
meet your personal standards for authenticity before you buy.
They're very responsive to questions.  And they ship quickly and
offer good customer service.  If your pockets aren't quite deep
enough to cover their clothing, you can still use their site as a
"gold standard" against which to measure others you visit.  (Notice,
for instance, how they say, "13th century" instead of "medieval", how
they tell you, right up front, what fibers are in their fabrics, and
how they follow "several surviving garments" with a list, instead of
expecting you to just take their word for it that something like what
they've made existed in period.)


Coblaith Muimnech
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Kingdom of Ansteorra
<mailto:Coblaith@...>
<http://coblaith.net>

--- On Mon, 9/11/09, peneth4 <peneth4@...> wrote:
Hi (again)

OK, knowing just how little I do about sewing I am now ready to give in and buy
a dress ready to wear.

I live in Australia but am willing to buy from overseas but am weary of
doing so without advice as I see costumes made of Satin or stretch
velvet and with gold trim etc.

Many thanks

Lady Merwyn aka Penny

REPLY

Unto the most noble
Lady Merwyn,
 greetings from Drachenwald unto Lochac.

Gentle lady,
In addition to Historic Enterprises, [ who give excellent service, I tell you as
a very satisfied past customer] recommended by the noble Coblaith Muimnech  -
this humble scribe would also recommend
Medieval Design {Italy]  -
www.medievaldesign.com/ english.asp
[Luciano also gives excellent service.  I have bought goods of him for my dear
Lady Alys; and, time past,  he has e'en undertaken special commissions twain
from me to create gifts for her Name Dayes. And e'en these did not cost me deep
in my purse!]
and Matuls  -
http://matuls.pl/index.php?IDP=1&Lng=1&IDKategoria=26
 - to the list of Merchants where you may purchase, - with confidence, -
readymade
  medieval-period garb [and other equipment] tof a high level of historicity, at
prices that hopefully will not too-much-deplete your coffers.

In Service to the medieval Dream, and to Drachenwald,'
Lord Matthewe Baker, ODB,
Hospitaller for West Dragonshire of Insulae Draconis, Drachenwald.











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of peneth4
Sent: Monday, 9 November 2009 9:50 PM
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Ready to wear

Hi (again)

OK, knowing just how little I do about sewing I am now ready to give in and
buy a dress ready to wear.

I live in Australia but am willing to buy from overseas but am weary of
doing so without advice as I see costumes made of Satin or stretch velvet
and with gold trim etc.

Many thanks
Lady Merwyn aka Penny


------------------------------------

Greetings from a fellow Australian, whereabouts are you located?

I would suggest you ask your group about loaner garb, good quality ready
made garb tends to be expensive (you are paying for the time somebody put
into research as well as the time they put into making it) but a lot of
SCAdians pass their old garb on to their local group when they can no longer
wear it (sometimes because it was an early attempt and they aren't happy
with the level of authenticity, but other times because it doesn't fit
anymore) that gives you time to get together the resources you need to make
your own outfit. The whole reason why loaner garb exists is for people who
are new to the society an easier introduction. There is rarely a problem
with you borrowing an outfit repeatedly. It's also worth asking in your
local group if anybody is willing to give you sewing lessons. Here in
Politarchopolis (Canberra) we have a weekly arts and sciences meeting where
people get together and work on projects if your group has something similar
that would probably be the best place to ask about learning to sew. Also if
you have a local college (university group) they will almost certainly run
some sort of basic garb making classes at the beginning of the next school
year to get their new recruits wearing something (though that would mean
waiting till February or March)

Other people have suggested good overseas merchants but if you are in
Brisbane you might want to look at Asa and Contarina's small luxuries they
sell good quality garb and have the documentation to back up what they sell
unfortunately their website http://www.aandcsmalluxuries.com.au/ isn't
really functional as a store (though you could email them) if you make it to
Rowany Festival next Easter their stall there is a good way to supplement a
small wardrobe if you've got the cash.

As for your question on patterned fabric brocades in relatively simple
geometric patterns (e.g. diamonds, checks etc.) is usually a safe bet. Have
a look at Cynthia Virtue's website for a quick guide
http://www.virtue.to/articles/modern_fabric.html it's not comprehensive, but
it gives you an idea of the sort of things to look for. Eventually as you
look at more and more period sources you will find you will develop an eye
for period styles and you will get a gut feeling for what looks period or
not (sometimes I _feel_ that something looks wrong and it takes me a while
to identify consciously what I have picked up subconsciously)

HTH
Elizabeth
-----------------------------------------
Elizabeth Walpole   | Elizabeth Beaumont
Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac
http://magpiecostumer.110mb.com/

Greetings dearest Elizabeth

I thank you for your kind reply.   I have had the pleasure of meeting the
Baronesse Contarina and spoke to her about the possibility of getting some garb
made.

As I have attended a few events already and will be attending many more I'm
actually after several outfits.

I appreciate your information on possible sewing options but as anyone who saw
my first (and only) attempt at making a basic tunic would say . . . getting
someone else to make my garb is a good idea.   Seriously, I really am THAT BAD
at sewing.

Thank you
Lady Merwyn aka Penny

--- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Walpole" <ewalpole@...> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of peneth4
> Sent: Monday, 9 November 2009 9:50 PM
> To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Ready to wear
>
> Hi (again)
>
> OK, knowing just how little I do about sewing I am now ready to give in and
> buy a dress ready to wear.
>
> I live in Australia but am willing to buy from overseas but am weary of
> doing so without advice as I see costumes made of Satin or stretch velvet
> and with gold trim etc.
>
> Many thanks
> Lady Merwyn aka Penny
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Greetings from a fellow Australian, whereabouts are you located?
>
> I would suggest you ask your group about loaner garb, good quality ready
> made garb tends to be expensive (you are paying for the time somebody put
> into research as well as the time they put into making it) but a lot of
> SCAdians pass their old garb on to their local group when they can no longer
> wear it (sometimes because it was an early attempt and they aren't happy
> with the level of authenticity, but other times because it doesn't fit
> anymore) that gives you time to get together the resources you need to make
> your own outfit. The whole reason why loaner garb exists is for people who
> are new to the society an easier introduction. There is rarely a problem
> with you borrowing an outfit repeatedly. It's also worth asking in your
> local group if anybody is willing to give you sewing lessons. Here in
> Politarchopolis (Canberra) we have a weekly arts and sciences meeting where
> people get together and work on projects if your group has something similar
> that would probably be the best place to ask about learning to sew. Also if
> you have a local college (university group) they will almost certainly run
> some sort of basic garb making classes at the beginning of the next school
> year to get their new recruits wearing something (though that would mean
> waiting till February or March)
>
> Other people have suggested good overseas merchants but if you are in
> Brisbane you might want to look at Asa and Contarina's small luxuries they
> sell good quality garb and have the documentation to back up what they sell
> unfortunately their website http://www.aandcsmalluxuries.com.au/ isn't
> really functional as a store (though you could email them) if you make it to
> Rowany Festival next Easter their stall there is a good way to supplement a
> small wardrobe if you've got the cash.
>
> As for your question on patterned fabric brocades in relatively simple
> geometric patterns (e.g. diamonds, checks etc.) is usually a safe bet. Have
> a look at Cynthia Virtue's website for a quick guide
> http://www.virtue.to/articles/modern_fabric.html it's not comprehensive, but
> it gives you an idea of the sort of things to look for. Eventually as you
> look at more and more period sources you will find you will develop an eye
> for period styles and you will get a gut feeling for what looks period or
> not (sometimes I _feel_ that something looks wrong and it takes me a while
> to identify consciously what I have picked up subconsciously)
>
> HTH
> Elizabeth
> -----------------------------------------
> Elizabeth Walpole   | Elizabeth Beaumont
> Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac
> http://magpiecostumer.110mb.com/
>

-----Original Message-----
From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of peneth4
Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 10:04 PM
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Ready to wear



Greetings dearest Elizabeth

I thank you for your kind reply.   I have had the pleasure of meeting the
Baronesse Contarina and spoke to her about the possibility of getting some
garb made.

As I have attended a few events already and will be attending many more I'm
actually after several outfits.

I appreciate your information on possible sewing options but as anyone who
saw my first (and only) attempt at making a basic tunic would say . . .
getting someone else to make my garb is a good idea.   Seriously, I really
am THAT BAD at sewing.

Thank you
Lady Merwyn aka Penny

----------------------------------

Don't discount the possibility that you might get better at sewing with
practice (and a teacher, it makes a big difference to have somebody beside
you who can show you what to do rather than trying to muddle through by
yourself). A lot of people come into the SCA without ever having touched a
sewing machine and learn as they go. However if making clothing really
doesn't appeal to you that's OK paying or bartering for skills you don't
have is common in the SCA.
If you're sure you don't want to make your own clothes I would definitely
opt for somebody local where you can see things in person and the person
making the garment can also take your measurements to make sure you get a
the best fit possible.
Elizabeth

> -----Original Message-----
> From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of peneth4
> Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 10:04 PM
> To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Ready to wear
>
> I appreciate your information on possible sewing options but as
> anyone who
> saw my first (and only) attempt at making a basic tunic would
> say . . .
> getting someone else to make my garb is a good idea.   Seriously, I
> really
> am THAT BAD at sewing.
>
> Thank you
> Lady Merwyn aka Penny

Barter, barter, barter. There's someone out there who loves to sew,
but hates to cook. Bring food for them to your events, and trade the
skills. There's someone out there who wants feast gear; if you've got
extra feast gear, or if you know how to make your own, arrange a
trade. If you can learn a very few of the most basic embroidery
methods, trade that for sewing -- it's gorgeous, takes up a lot of
time, and isn't too demanding skill-wise (well, anyway, cross-stitch
doesn't take much skill, though it does require patience). It's
tedious work, and some seamsters won't want to spend their time
decorating when they could spend it making more garments. Watch their
kids, shovel their snow. Everyone has SOMETHING they'd rather get
someone else to do. :)

If you ever think you might like to learn to sew in order to save
yourself some money in the garb department, read on. I'm sort of in
the same boat, but I bit the bullet and bought a sewing machine. Now I
HAVE to learn to use it! Fortunately there's a very patient friend I
have, who's willing to spend Sundays at my place, showing me how to
lay out and cut out patterns, pin things correctly, cut correctly, and
put them together correctly. Also, when I bought the machine, I
learned that I could get as many free lessons as I want in how to use
it. They won't teach me to sew, but they'll teach me what all the
buttons and knobs do, how to thread the machine, how to load a
bobbin... it's really, really little nitpicky stuff that's important,
but that you'd never really think to do yourself. Instruction books
are great, but there's just no substitute for a human teacher. Call
around the local sewing/fabric stores and see if any of them offer
similar instruction in the use of the machines they sell.

Judith / no SCA name yet
Master Albrecht Waldfurster's Egg
Middle Kingdom, Midlands, Ayreton, Tree-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL)

Ziddina (me) wrote:  "not an actual 'white' as we know it today..."

Coblaith replied:  "Not "optic white", which indicates a white fabric that has
reflective particles imbedded in it to make it essentially glow when exposed to
light (that "whiter than white" the Clorox corporation promises its
customers)..."



Uoops.  That "dayglow" white is what I think of as 'modern' white...  Didn't
realize that a good 'white' could be achieved in 'period'; always assumed that
'period' white was more of a 'cream' or 'winter' white - off-white, in other
words...



Colblaith wrote:  "It is almost without exception the color of all types of
underwear seen in European manuscripts produced in the S.C.A's core period,
whether the individuals represented are kings or beggars. It is also the color
of all the surviving medieval and Renaissance shirts and shifts of which I've
seen photos or read descriptions."



RATS!  I like colors, and really wanted to get into 'colored'
chemises/shifts...  I see the logic of your points, though, as you stated: 
"1) White fabric is comparatively easy to clean. You can soak it, boil it, and
expose it to harsh cleaners without worrying about dyes that might run, shift,
or fade."



and "2) Compared to coloring wool or silk (Europe's other mainstay fabrics in
period), coloring linen as it was colored in period is *hard*. It just doesn't
make much sense to go to the extra trouble and expense necessary to do it if
you're only going to cover it up. Coloring outer layers made of a more easily
dyed fiber gives you a much, much bigger bang for your buck."



Ziddina (me) said:  "Would a pale gray, pale beige, pale blue/blue-gray color
fit into earlier 'period' garb for, say, European, North African, or
Middle Eastern garb???"



Oh, I wish, I wish, I wish...


Coblaith replied:  "All those colors seem plausible for some types of garments
worn in some of those places at some times during the S.C.A's period of
interest. If you narrow the question down to a particular garment
worn in a specific time, place, and culture, someone here may be able to help
you find a good answer to it. But at the moment, it's too vague to elicit one."



Which means I ought to start cracking those books again...
Ziddina

----- Original Message -----
From: "Coblaith Muimnech" <Coblaith@...>
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 1:19:14 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...

 




Ziddina wrote:
> I assume that the 'white' of linen would have actually been an
> undyed, unbleached (although I seem to recall that the Europeans
> used milk, among other bleaching agents, if I remember some
> conversations between dyers...??) tone - not an actual 'white' as
> we know it today...

No; "white" means 'white'. Not "optic white", which indicates a
white fabric that has reflective particles imbedded in it to make it
essentially glow when exposed to light (that "whiter than white" the
Clorox corporation promises its customers), but plain old everyday
white. It is almost without exception the color of all types of
underwear seen in European manuscripts produced in the S.C.A's core
period, whether the individuals represented are kings or beggars. It
is also the color of all the surviving medieval and Renaissance
shirts and shifts of which I've seen photos or read descriptions.

Linen can be whitened in a number of ways without chemicals that
weren't available before 1600. The most widely used is the simple
exposure of damp linen to direct sunlight. In period there were
designated communal bleaching greens in many villages, and large
estates often had their own. They were used not only to whiten new
fabric but to restore the whiteness of linen goods that had yellowed
or to keep white linen white. (David Teniers the Younger's
"Bleaching Ground" < http://www.abcgallery.com/T/teniers/
teniers6.html>, painted about 45 years after the end of the S.C.A's
period, shows a village bleaching green in action.) There were also
professionals who used large bleaching greens, often in conjunction
with various treatments that enhanced the effects of field-bleaching,
to whiten quantities of new linen that were then passed on to
clothiers and fabric-mongers. (There's an account of some techniques
used in 16th-century Germany on page 131 of _The Workplace before the
Factory_, as part of Thomas Max Safley's "Production, Transaction,
and Proletarianization: The Textile Industry in Upper Swabia,
1580-1660" < http://books.google.com/books?id=m-
YDD2_ykGsC&pg=PA131>.) If I had to guess, I'd say those who could
afford to bought professionally whitened fabric and used their local
bleaching greens to maintain it, rather than starting with "brown
linen" and bleaching their own. The latter process isn't
particularly difficult, but it is slow and requires a fair amount of
attention.

> I suspect that the chemises weren't always 'white' or off-white.
> White was a 'status' color, though, so for most 'status' outfits,
> an off-white chemise would probably be a pretty good bet. I am SO
> tempted to use other colors for chemises, however...

I'm not clear on what basis you declare, "White was a 'status'
color. . .," or to which culture and period you're referring when you
do.

In addition to the representational and archaeological evidence that
underclothes were pretty much universally white across Europe between
600 and 1600, there are a couple of obvious logical reasons they
would've been.

1) White fabric is comparatively easy to clean. You can soak it,
boil it, and expose it to harsh cleaners without worrying about dyes
that might run, shift, or fade. And you can just re-bleach it if you
find you've got uneven shades resulting from intensive stain-removal
treatments. So for garments you're going to sweat on and maybe spot
with other bodily excretions, white's a smart choice.

2) Compared to coloring wool or silk (Europe's other mainstay
fabrics in period), coloring linen as it was colored in period is
*hard*. It just doesn't make much sense to go to the extra trouble
and expense necessary to do it if you're only going to cover it up.
Coloring outer layers made of a more easily dyed fiber gives you a
much, much bigger bang for your buck.

> Would a pale gray, pale beige, pale blue/blue-gray color fit into
> earlier 'period' garb for, say, European, North African, or Middle
> Eastern garb???

All those colors seem plausible for some types of garments worn in
some of those places at some times during the S.C.A's period of
interest. If you narrow the question down to a particular garment
worn in a specific time, place, and culture, someone here may be able
to help you find a good answer to it. But at the moment, it's too
vague to elicit one.

Coblaith Muimnech
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Kingdom of Ansteorra
<mailto: Coblaith@... >
< http://coblaith.net >




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you!  Good information!
----- Original Message -----
From: "julian wilson" <smnco37@...>
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 2:56:03 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Re:  cotton (was: Colors...)

 




--- On Sun, 8/11/09, Coblaith Muimnech < Coblaith@... > wrote: Ziddina
wrote:
> Does anyone out there have info on. . .cotton, and the possibility
> that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???

There's a good article on the European adoption of what we now call
cotton from The Costume Dabbler < http://des.kyhm. com/cotton>. It
includes a bibliography useful for those who want more in-depth
information.

COMMENT
entles All,
I've just got my hands on Lists of Materials supplied by the English "Great
Wardrobe" in the first year of King Henry VII's reign - Aug,1485 to Aug 1486.
The Wardrobe supplied linen for shirts and for lining other garments. but AFAIR.
"cotton" was only supplied once or twice, against probably an hundred entries
for buying/ supplying linen. And the most of the linen noted in these period
manuscripts is obviously from Flanders - being named as "holand, or flemsysch,
or braban" - with differing prices per ell, which make it clear that thwe names
refer to different qualities of linen cloth.
I recall noting that the price of cotton cloth  from the Wardrobe costs about
the same as the "holand" linen per ell ; but whether that denotes differing
quality or differing width per piece, I didn't discover - because I was
targeting the supply of other textiles within the Lists - skarlets, chamlet,
sarcenet, &c. What does seem to be clear is that the cotton was imported from
further-away from England than the Flanders linen; which would naturally have
increased the price, whatever the width/length  per piece.

Servus,
 Matthewe Baker.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you, I'll check out that link.  And as always, I'd better bug my local
libraries to import more books not available in my area...  Ziddina
----- Original Message -----
From: "Coblaith Muimnech" <Coblaith@...>
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 1:24:18 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
Subject: [SCA Newcomers] cotton (was: Colors...)

 




Ziddina wrote:
> Does anyone out there have info on. . .cotton, and the possibility
> that it was available to Europeans - probably in later period???

There's a good article on the European adoption of what we now call
cotton from The Costume Dabbler < http://des.kyhm.com/cotton >. It
includes a bibliography useful for those who want more in-depth
information.

Coblaith Muimnech
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Kingdom of Ansteorra
<mailto: Coblaith@... >
< http://coblaith.net >




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No, no no, Lady Merwyn, don't give up on learning how to sew yet!



I took [well, was forced to take...] a nine-weeks' class in sewing in the public
school system in the USA, got a "D" [really, really bad grade], and was 'written
off' as a future sewer by both the teacher and my mother.  That was when I
was 13 years old.  When I turned 18, my mother took one look at me, realized
she had a 'clothes horse' [someone who wears clothes well and WANTS LOTS OF
THEM!!] on her hands...



So what did she do?  Our previous, annual 'shopping trips' for my school
clothes had always turned into shopping trips FOR HER, so the only contribution
she made to my clothing expenses was to buy me a cheap sewing machine...



Now, some 30-40 years later, that little 13-year-old who nearly FLUNKED sewing
in school has won TWO AWARDS from the International Costumers' Association; at
their 2005 convention, for my "Eternal Infernal Elizabethan" gown.  Not totally
authentic in period (I used a serger on some of the interior seams), but close
enough to pass polite inspection, provided the Laurel doesn't become too
personal/intrusive...



So, please don't give up on your sewing skills.  You probably just need to find
someone who'll take the time to educate you in the proper techniques for
fitting, as well as sewing.



Besides, it's much cheaper, as well as [ultimately] more fulfilling...  Ziddina


----- Original Message -----
From: "peneth4" <peneth4@...>
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 4:03:47 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Ready to wear

 






Greetings dearest Elizabeth

I thank you for your kind reply. I have had the pleasure of meeting the
Baronesse Contarina and spoke to her about the possibility of getting some garb
made.

As I have attended a few events already and will be attending many more I'm
actually after several outfits.

I appreciate your information on possible sewing options but as anyone who saw
my first (and only) attempt at making a basic tunic would say . . . getting
someone else to make my garb is a good idea. Seriously, I really am THAT BAD at
sewing.

Thank you
Lady Merwyn aka Penny

--- In scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com , "Elizabeth Walpole" <ewalpole@...> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com ] On
> Behalf Of peneth4
> Sent: Monday, 9 November 2009 9:50 PM
> To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [SCA Newcomers] Ready to wear
>
> Hi (again)
>
> OK, knowing just how little I do about sewing I am now ready to give in and
> buy a dress ready to wear.
>
> I live in Australia but am willing to buy from overseas but am weary of
> doing so without advice as I see costumes made of Satin or stretch velvet
> and with gold trim etc.
>
> Many thanks
> Lady Merwyn aka Penny
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Greetings from a fellow Australian, whereabouts are you located?
>
> I would suggest you ask your group about loaner garb, good quality ready
> made garb tends to be expensive (you are paying for the time somebody put
> into research as well as the time they put into making it) but a lot of
> SCAdians pass their old garb on to their local group when they can no longer
> wear it (sometimes because it was an early attempt and they aren't happy
> with the level of authenticity, but other times because it doesn't fit
> anymore) that gives you time to get together the resources you need to make
> your own outfit. The whole reason why loaner garb exists is for people who
> are new to the society an easier introduction. There is rarely a problem
> with you borrowing an outfit repeatedly. It's also worth asking in your
> local group if anybody is willing to give you sewing lessons. Here in
> Politarchopolis (Canberra) we have a weekly arts and sciences meeting where
> people get together and work on projects if your group has something similar
> that would probably be the best place to ask about learning to sew. Also if
> you have a local college (university group) they will almost certainly run
> some sort of basic garb making classes at the beginning of the next school
> year to get their new recruits wearing something (though that would mean
> waiting till February or March)
>
> Other people have suggested good overseas merchants but if you are in
> Brisbane you might want to look at Asa and Contarina's small luxuries they
> sell good quality garb and have the documentation to back up what they sell
> unfortunately their website http://www.aandcsmalluxuries.com.au/ isn't
> really functional as a store (though you could email them) if you make it to
> Rowany Festival next Easter their stall there is a good way to supplement a
> small wardrobe if you've got the cash.
>
> As for your question on patterned fabric brocades in relatively simple
> geometric patterns (e.g. diamonds, checks etc.) is usually a safe bet. Have
> a look at Cynthia Virtue's website for a quick guide
> http://www.virtue.to/articles/modern_fabric.html it's not comprehensive, but
> it gives you an idea of the sort of things to look for. Eventually as you
> look at more and more period sources you will find you will develop an eye
> for period styles and you will get a gut feeling for what looks period or
> not (sometimes I _feel_ that something looks wrong and it takes me a while
> to identify consciously what I have picked up subconsciously)
>
> HTH
> Elizabeth
> -----------------------------------------
> Elizabeth Walpole | Elizabeth Beaumont
> Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac
> http://magpiecostumer.110mb.com/
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I Have Colored Coifs That I Had Made For Me And Wear Out In
Public Although On Further Research The Overwhelming Preponderance Of  The
Evidence Shows That Coifs Were Almost Universally
Constructed Of White Or Undyed Materials And The Fashion   Police
Have Not Arrested Me Though There May Be A Warrant Out For My Fashion Arrest
That I Don’t Know About So Some People Do Wear Under Garment Type Pieces That
Are Not White Occasionally At SCA Event For Reasons Of Personal Style Or
Convenience
Just Know If You Choose To Do So That You Are Not Going To Be One-Hundred
Percent Correct If That Important To You

 

LOST  AND CONFUSED



Padhraig O' Cellachain















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of peneth4
Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 10:04 PM
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Ready to wear



Greetings dearest Elizabeth

I thank you for your kind reply.   I have had the pleasure of meeting the
Baronesse Contarina and spoke to her about the possibility of getting some
garb made.

As I have attended a few events already and will be attending many more I'm
actually after several outfits.

I appreciate your information on possible sewing options but as anyone who
saw my first (and only) attempt at making a basic tunic would say . . .
getting someone else to make my garb is a good idea.   Seriously, I really
am THAT BAD at sewing.

Thank you
Lady Merwyn aka Penny

----------------------------------

Don't discount the possibility that you might get better at sewing with
practice and a teacher (practical skills like sewing are much easier to
learn if you have somebody with you who can show you exactly what to do
rather than trying to muddle through alone). A lot of people come into the
SCA without ever having touched a sewing machine and learn as they go.
However if making clothing really doesn't appeal to you that's OK, you don't
need to persist in doing something you really don't like.
If you really want to buy your clothing readymade I would suggest contacting
Contarina as you're likely to get a better result when the person making the
garment can see you and you can see the garment or fabric in person (a
friend swore off mail ordering clothing when she bought a dress in a colour
she thought she liked but made her look horrible when it was against her
skin)
-----------------------------------------
Elizabeth Walpole   | Elizabeth Beaumont
Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac
http://magpiecostumer.110mb.com/

Teachers!  Estrella Arts and Sciences Collegium needs you!

Estrella is a great place to meet other artisans who share your passion and to
learn from each other.

To be a part of this exciting process, please sign up to teach at

http://www.estrellawar.org/Activities/ArtsandSciences/ASTeacherSignUpForm.aspx

The deadline is December 1st!

Artisans!  Artisan Alley returns for its second year, bigger than before.  In
both the Collegium tent and Period Demo Center there will be room for practicing
arts and sharing the creative spirit of others.  Come join us between 10-5
Wed-Sat, 12-3 Sun of War.

I look forward to hearing from you soon,

Dame Jennifer Trethewy

Colours of "under" clothing in late-1485 - and early 1486, -
 Gentles all,
 you may be interested to know that, in the English Wardrobe  & Exchequer
Accounts listing cloth purchased - and clothing made-up - for the first 3 "big
events" of King Henry VII's Reign, i.e. - the triumphant March from Leicester to
London & First Parliament, The Coronation [9 weeks after Bosworth], and the
later Coronation of Queen Elizabeth, -  that coloured silks are noted to have
been purchased and tailored-up for shirts and coifs - not only for the King's
Grace, but also for some of the Lords of His Train,  and one or two of the
closest and highest Esquires & Servants of His Affinity.


In Service to the medieval Dream,
 Lord Matthewe Baker, ODB,
 Drachenwald.

--- On Thu, 12/11/09, Callahan Patrick <callahanpatrick@...> wrote:

From: Callahan Patrick <callahanpatrick@...>
Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 12 November, 2009, 3:20







 













I Have Colored Coifs That I Had Made For Me And Wear Out In

Public Although On Further Research The Overwhelming Preponderance Of  The
Evidence Shows That Coifs Were Almost Universally

Constructed Of White Or Undyed Materials And The Fashion   Police

Have Not Arrested Me Though There May Be A Warrant Out For My Fashion Arrest

That I Don’t Know About So Some People Do Wear Under Garment Type Pieces That

Are Not White Occasionally At SCA Event For Reasons Of Personal Style Or
Convenience

Just Know If You Choose To Do So That You Are Not Going To Be One-Hundred

Percent Correct If That Important To You



 



LOST  AND CONFUSED



Padhraig O' Cellachain



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hee hee hee!  I like the way you think...  Ziddina
----- Original Message -----
From: "Callahan Patrick" <callahanpatrick@...>
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:20:48 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] Colors...

 






I Have Colored Coifs That I Had Made For Me And Wear Out In
Public Although On Further Research The Overwhelming Preponderance Of  The
Evidence Shows That Coifs Were Almost Universally
Constructed Of White Or Undyed Materials And The Fashion   Police
Have Not Arrested Me Though There May Be A Warrant Out For My Fashion Arrest
That I Don’t Know About So Some People Do Wear Under Garment Type Pieces That
Are Not White Occasionally At SCA Event For Reasons Of Personal Style Or
Convenience
Just Know If You Choose To Do So That You Are Not Going To Be One-Hundred
Percent Correct If That Important To You

 

LOST  AND CONFUSED

Padhraig O' Cellachain

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, I'm new to the group here and to SCA kind of.. I recently got more involved
with a local chapter Kingdom of the West , I'm in the Shire of Thistlethorr's
Locality but am attending activities with Vakerfjell currently.  I'm trying to
work on a persona, and make sure my chosen names work together. My question is
regarding making a device, Can your device have things that draw into your
heritage? For example if you are a celt can you have knotwork on your device?
Any help would sure be appreciated,
Thanks So much
Teresa
hopefully soon to be named
Catrin of Cale

Greetings,

I'm no expert, and I'm sure Coblaith will be along sooner or later to give
you a much better answer. But just to tide you over, I think you're
generally encouraged to have your device point to your heritage. I know some
kingdoms won't approve a device that doesn't match the culture of the
persona. others are more lax. For example, where I live, an english person
with a russian device would be frowned upon.

Cailin

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Babers, or Keleka <
sweetlittletessa@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi, I'm new to the group here and to SCA kind of.. I recently got more
> involved with a local chapter Kingdom of the West , I'm in the Shire of
> Thistlethorr's Locality but am attending activities with Vakerfjell
> currently. I'm trying to work on a persona, and make sure my chosen names
> work together. My question is regarding making a device, Can your device
> have things that draw into your heritage? For example if you are a celt can
> you have knotwork on your device?
> Any help would sure be appreciated,
> Thanks So much
> Teresa
> hopefully soon to be named
> Catrin of Cale
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Teresa, "hopefully soon to be named Catrin of Cale" wrote:
> I'm trying to work on a persona, and make sure my chosen names work
> together.

Have you read, "Choosing a Society Name: Hints for Newcomers" <http://
www.s-gabriel.org/names/dietmar/hints.html>?  It's a good idea to
start with that.

The first step in evaluating how the parts of a proposed name "work"
is to find out whether each is suitable to the period and language to
which you want the name to belong.  What kind of name did you want?
Do you have evidence of the use of the proposed elements in period?
If so, what are the details?

Here's what I found in my quick check:

"Catrin" is a variant of "Catherine".  The closest period form I
found in a quick perusal of online sources is "Katrin", which was
recorded in Wales in the late 16th century <http://www.s-gabriel.org/
2755>, in Norway in the 15th century <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
names/norwegian/norwayfem.html> and in Sweden in the 14th and 15th
centuries <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/swedish/smp/
katerine.html>.  Several similar names are found in Norway and Sweden
in a variety of periods.  There are a number of slightly less similar
names found in England <http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/reaney/
reaney.cgi?Katharine>, the closest being "Katerin", recorded in the
13th century <http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/english/
enggivlondon1292.html>.

"Cales" is documented as a place name from 12th-century England,
according to the online Middle English Dictionary <http://
quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=id&id=MED24120>.

While I've seen the Latin "de" more often, the English preposition
"of" does appear as an element in toponymic bynames and surnames in
some documents from the 12th and 13th centuries <http://
quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=id&id=MED30218>.

So "Katerin of Cales", at least, looks to me like a reasonable 12th-
or 13th-century English name.


Coblaith Muimnech
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Kingdom of Ansteorra
<mailto:Coblaith@...>
<http://coblaith.net>

Teresa wrote:
> My question is regarding making a device, Can your device have
> things that draw into your heritage? For example if you are a celt
> can you have knotwork on your device?

When the College of Arms considers a name or a piece of armory that's
been submitted for registration, the members' only concern is whether
it complies with all the Rules for Submissions <http://
heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/rfs.html>.  They have no interest in
what the submitter's real-world family history looks like, or even
what her persona is.  Each submission is evaluated on its own merits
alone.

When a device is submitted the individual elements and the overall
design are examined for compatibility with period armorial style,
lack of offensiveness, difference from armory that's already
registered and other protected symbols and designs, and freedom from
presumption.  The only time any culture-specific considerations come
in is when someone submits something that would normally not be
acceptable requesting a regional style exemption.  In that case the
argument is, "I know this device violates one of the general
principals of heraldic design, but it looks like period arms from
this particular area," and it has to be backed up with evidence from
that area.

Incidentally, "Celtic knotwork" can't be used in S.C.A. armory (by
anybody) because it's not compatible with period heraldic style
<http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2001/06/01-06lar.html#215>.  If you're
interested in finding something cool to put on your device, I
recommend looking at period depictions of arms <http://coblaith.net/
Heraldry/Armorials/default.html>.  You'll be amazed at some of the
stuff you'll find there, much of it rarely seen in Society heraldry.
If you particularly want your arms to evoke a specific geographical
area, try to find period armorials from that area or (as a second
choice) armorials from other areas that include arms from that area.
It won't be possible for all areas, but it's worth the effort.


Coblaith Muimnech
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Kingdom of Ansteorra
<mailto:Coblaith@...>
<http://coblaith.net>

Cailin wrote:
> . . .I know some kingdoms won't approve a device that doesn't match
> the culture of the persona. others are more lax. For example, where
> I live, an english person with a russian device would be frowned upon.

Just to clarify, while some folks in your area may disapprove of
someone using an English name and Russian-style armory, the kingdom
can't refuse to send the submissions up because of that.  The
standards for submissions are set at the Society level, and are
therefore uniform across the board.  And they do not take persona
into account in any way.  If you submit a good English name that
doesn't conflict with anything protected, it's good.  If you submit
good Russian-looking arms that don't conflict with anything
protected, they're good.  If you submit a good English name and good
Russian arms that don't conflict together, they're still good, even
if the persona you usually play is Spanish.


Coblaith Muimnech
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Kingdom of Ansteorra
<mailto:Coblaith@...>
<http://coblaith.net>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cailin replied to Catrin of Cale with:

   But just to tide you over, I think you're
generally encouraged to have your device point to your heritage. I
know some
kingdoms won't approve a device that doesn't match the culture of the
persona. others are more lax. For example, where I live, an english
person
with a russian device would be frowned upon. >>>

Ansteorra must be one of the kingdoms that doesn't do that, as I've
never heard this mentioned before. Mixing names from unlikely cultural
pairings is frowned upon if not directly disqualified, but I've never
heard of this for armory vs. persona. A further complication is that
many cultures in our time period did not have heraldry or they were
before heraldry really became formalized.

This file talks a little about this.
heraldry-tips-msg  (9K)  9/28/95  SCA heraldry for cultures that
didn't have
                                      heraldry.
http://www.florilegium.org/files/HERALDRY/heraldry-tips-msg.html

Catrin had commented:
<<< Can your device have things that draw into your heritage? >>>

The previous comments were more about heraldic style. If by your
heritage, you were speaking of the charge(s) on your device, then
there is another caution. Heraldry in the Middle Ages was passed down
from generation to generation. We haven't have enough multiple
generations in the SCA yet for this to be a big concern, but if you
have parents in the SCA, do you want to use their heraldry or do wish
to start again with your own?  What this means is that today, and
originally in period, a particular charge may have been chosen as a
pun on a name or because the originator just liked it. But when
inherited, that liking for a charge may or may not exist.

Gentles often choose a charge because they like it. Say a book because
you like to read. But often period heraldry did not have that
association. So you may or may not wish to choose a charge because of
some symbolic value. But whether you do or do not, please resist the
temptation to add multiple different charges. Example: I like reading
so, I'll start with a book and I like horses, so let's add a blue
horse head and I like money so lets add a stack of coins. This is
"slot machine" heraldry and is in very bad taste and rather poor
heraldry.

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
     Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas          StefanliRous@...
**** See Stefan's Florilegium files at:  http://www.florilegium.org ****