The wrist snap is a skill that has to be developed with the muscles in the
wrist. Has nothing to do with how big and strong you are unless you spend
hours a day doing nothing but wrist snaps. (I know knights who do hundreds
of shots on a pell training up for crown lyst) My sword is 33 inches long,
just under 3 feet but most of the weight is in my metal basket hilt. Rattan
alone is light it's all the other stuff you put on it that brings the
weight. I shave the rattan to get the outer layer of skin off then I wrap it
in packing tape, (the tape that has the strings inside of it for added
strength) for about two layers all over the stick, then I put on the
thrusting tip with its required taping. Then I duct tape the whole thing
from one end to the other. Once that's done I put red Duct tape over the
thrusting tip area of the sword so it can be identified and then run red
electrical tape as the "cutting edge" of the blade. I put my basket hilt on
using screw down clamps on both ends and electrical tape those. I also use
tennis racket hand grip tape on the rattan inside the basket so I have a
better grip with a leather trigger. I also put in a leather lanyard so my
sword doesn't fly away should I lose it. By the time that's done id
guesstimate I'm over 5 or 6lbs. I don't have a scale at the moment or I'd be
more precise. I've been told I go heavy on the tape but I hate shattering a
sword, it's a pain to switch out in time to continue and usually the fight
is over before your done.



Dmitrii



   _____

From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of George C. P. M.
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 11:28 PM
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] My Rant + My Suggestion: SCA heavy combat lacks
any authenticity



If your sca rattan sword is under 3ft long yet weighs as much as a
3ft long 2x4 piece of lumber(3 pounds) then your weapon is a rarity.
I'm strong and I can't wrist snap a 3ft section of 2x4 half as fast
as the guys I see the guys swinging in sca tournaments.

--- In scanewcomers@ <mailto:scanewcomers%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "Chris Chastain"
<ckchastain@...> wrote:
>
> My sword is under 3ft and weighs more than three pounds after I've
added all
> the tape, thrusting tip and basket hilt! As a matter of fact I
collect
> swords and my rattan sword is heavier than a lot of them up until I
get to a
> one and a half hand blade. My basket hilt is not considered heavy
either.
> I've seen some that the basket alone was over 3lbs. Now there are
some folks
> who don't use basket hilts and just use a crossbar which is made of
various
> materials and can make the weapon "light". I don't personally agree
with
> this even if wearing a full gauntlet, seen too many gauntlets get
shattered
> from hard hits. (rivets can only take so much abuse) I personally
feel the
> cross guard should be one of the metal variety which can be
purchased from
> various vendors and are safer than a foamy cross guard.

>I have one question
> for you, have you handled some rattan weapons? From what you've
said it > sounded like you saw the weapons from video's. Don't under
>estimate the > rattan, it looks light and can be easily taken as
>such.

No, I have not handled an sca rattan sword. After watching the
filipino stick fighting err, I mean heavy sca combat videos...I'm
sort of turned off to participating. But, I might consruct "swords"
as I think they should be and take them to my local sca group's
practice to test and film.

>Also there is a> medieval reenactors group in Russia that does
>exactly what your suggesting,> every battle they send folks to the
>hospital with broken fingers, arms, legs> and worst of all broken
>backs.

Please stop suggesting my weapon idea is somehow more lethal than a
rattan stick which can easily kill someone in a single full force
blow. I'm talking about hollow, flexible pvc wrapped in bed sheet.

>Your also on a
> track that has been spoken of for years on rattan and has caused
other
> groups to fracture off of the SCA into boffer weapons and the like.
It comes
> down to preference really. If you haven't had the opportunity to
try our
> weapons go down to your friendly neighborhood fighter practice and
try one.
> But so you see where im coming from, I agree some swords do appear
light and
> some may be light but in general most are over 3 lbs and depending
on
> persona's culture and or personal preference usually over 3ft,
though there
> are exceptions.

Strange that the sca doesn't specify minimum weight eh? None of the 1-
h swords I saw in the one vs one videos were 3 pounds. Impossible.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

giertrud wrote:
> Does anyone know how to make a ruff "collar"?

There are directions on the Renaissance Tailor website
<http://www.renaissancetailor.com/demos_ruffs.htm> and a section on
them on the Elizabethan Costume Page
<http://www.elizabethancostume.net/ruffs/index.html> that includes
instructions.


Coblaith Mhuimhneach
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Kingdom of Ansteorra
<mailto:Coblaith@...>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Please stop suggesting my weapon idea is somehow more lethal than a
rattan stick which can easily kill someone in a single full force
blow. I'm talking about hollow, flexible pvc wrapped in bed sheet.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That would totally shatter.  But, your best bet here is to test it.  Beat your
PVC sword against a tree like a pell.  We fight full contact, so hit the tree
hard.  The tree should suffice as a solid test surface.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Strange that the sca doesn't specify minimum weight eh? None of the 1-
h swords I saw in the one vs one videos were 3 pounds. Impossible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I do not know what videos you saw.  But its not impossible.  Tape is heavy, and
so is my steel basket hilt.

Sincerely,
  - Pardus






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adam Goodwine of Glen Abhann
   was making them for combat practice at my house.   He is my son in law.  They
were of PVC and covered witht he foam rubber suff you insulate the exposed water
pipes with.  They seemed to work very well.  Not hard to make and not to
expensive.

   Josefina

"George C. P. M." <gcpm@...> wrote:
           I'll put this in reply here...

Regarding pvc...

It seems someone else has been testing it and found a version that was
acceptable.

From: http://www.meridiancavalry.com/MeridianHeavyMountedcombatrules.doc

c. Construction (PVC
1. Swords shall be constructed of ½" or larger schedule 40 PVC
(600psi)
2. PVC shall be capped at both ends
3. PVC swords may be filled with expanding foam (i.e. Great stuff)
to create a more realistically weighted weapon
4. The entire striking surface of the sword shall be covered with
one half inch (1/2") of closed cell foam
5. The cutting edge shall be marked with contrasting tape

The main changes I would make are minimum length 3 feet, minimum weight
3 pounds, at least one sheet wrapped around the distal 1.5 foot portion
of the sword in a neatly folded manner. There. WAY less lethal than a
rattan sword.






---------------------------------
No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal for Yahoo!
users and friends.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

By the time that's done id
> guesstimate I'm over 5 or 6lbs.

So it weighs almost as much as TWO 3ft long 2x4's. I'd have to see that
to believe it.
Granted, you say most (~4 pounds?) is at the handle. I don't think that
design mimicks a slashing metal sword. Maybe a piercing metal sword.

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Strange that the sca doesn't specify minimum weight eh? None of the 1-
> h swords I saw in the one vs one videos were 3 pounds. Impossible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I do not know what videos you saw.  But its not impossible.  Tape is
heavy, and so is my steel basket hilt.


Ya, I should have been more specific. I find it impossible that the sca
swords I saw in over half a dozen one vs one fights were 3 pounds AND
evenly balanced throughout their length like a broad bladed slashing
sword would be.
They act more like FMA batons than metal slashing swords.

The weight balance is up to each individual fighter. They make it how they
like it and in what way works best. I keep mine balanced at my hand because
it's easier to swing if the weight swings on a smaller arc than that if it
was spread over the full length. You also have to realize SCA is a best
attempt at authenticity. People who do WMA will tell you that no one truly
knows how they fought it's just now being recreated thru the study of the
manuals of the period and even that is requiring guesswork and backwards
engineering. As I said earlier go check out your local practice and see what
other folks do with their gear. You'll find some who have the weight at the
"pointy" end and those who spread it out over the entire length as well.
It's up to the maker how he does it. I would also invite you to try on some
ones armor and take the field, if for nothing else so you can have a better
understanding of where were coming from. Afterwards you'll have a better
understanding of the mechanics that I think you're missing in your proposal.
Otherwise I think you're on a good track just need the missing pieces.



Dmitrii



Tomorrow's battle is won during today's practice.
- Samurai maxim









From: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of George P. C. M.
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:00 AM
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] My Rant + My Suggestion: SCA heavy combat lacks
any authenticity




> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Strange that the sca doesn't specify minimum weight eh? None of the 1-
> h swords I saw in the one vs one videos were 3 pounds. Impossible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I do not know what videos you saw. But its not impossible. Tape is
heavy, and so is my steel basket hilt.

Ya, I should have been more specific. I find it impossible that the sca
swords I saw in over half a dozen one vs one fights were 3 pounds AND
evenly balanced throughout their length like a broad bladed slashing
sword would be.
They act more like FMA batons than metal slashing swords.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Balance is another thing that  can vary with swords.   Although I have read
that some prefer the balance to be about  six inches above the sword's hilt.

Some rattan swords do manage this balance.  There are lightweight (plastic)
basket hilts that lighten the pommel, and thrusting tips to bring the balance up
the blade a bit.   Mine has neither, and my basket being steel, it leaves the
balance about one inch above the hilt.  Naturally, I could add more tape to
balance it, but I choose to not make it any heavier.   It's heavy enough!  :)

  - Pardus.

   -------------- Original message from "George P. C. M." <gcpm@...>:
--------------





> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Strange that the sca doesn't specify minimum weight eh? None of the 1-
> h swords I saw in the one vs one videos were 3 pounds. Impossible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I do not know what videos you saw.  But its not impossible.  Tape is
heavy, and so is my steel basket hilt.

Ya, I should have been more specific. I find it impossible that the sca
swords I saw in over half a dozen one vs one fights were 3 pounds AND
evenly balanced throughout their length like a broad bladed slashing
sword would be.
They act more like FMA batons than metal slashing swords.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sunday 30 March 2008 22:21:57 George C. P. M. wrote:
> However, aren't 99% of boffer swords pvc core? Not
> only that but the Thin-type of pvc? The boffer crowd doesn't seem to
> be suffering many impaling injuries.

Most of the ones I've seen have been of a softer plastic, probably
polyethelyne.

Justin

--
()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::>                   <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
keys fesswise reversed sable.

Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio)             http://4th.com/sca/justin/
justin@...        PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey

On Sunday 30 March 2008 22:47:14 George C. P. M. wrote:
> I haven't weighed an sca sword like the kind the champs use to win,
> but I'd put their total weight at 1 pound with a central point of
> balance.

I can't tell you about "the kind the champs use to win", because I have
not conducted an extensive survey. The ones used by myself and my friends
weigh about 14 ounces per linear foot. The SCA's legal limit in my kingdom
is 16 ounces per linear foot on most weapon types.

>
> > I'm an SCA fighter and also happen to own a live steel sword that I
> > carry> for costume (but of course never use for fighting).
[...]

> Could you describe this sword of your's? Length, weight, blade width
> at base and near the point. Have you weighed your sca sword?

My sword is a mid-period design, common across most of Europe throughout
the Middle Ages but not even remotely elaborate. It's about 36 inches in
length, blade width about 3 inches, with small steel quillons and pommel.

My SCA sword weighs about 4 pounds, and the steel one about 5. That's close
enough for me.

Justin

--
()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::>                   <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
keys fesswise reversed sable.

Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio)             http://4th.com/sca/justin/
justin@...        PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey

George,

I think before you can change anyones mind within an organization you
would need to experience it. Few opinions not based on evidence are
ever listened to. Within your arguments you have stated a number of
admissions of fault.

1. You have stated you have never actually weighed a SCA legal sword,
but have assumed them to be at 1 pound.

2. You have stated it is impossible to throw a wrist snap of a 3 lb.
object but have never try it, where SCA fighters throw them every week.

3. Your study of SCA combat has been stated as some videos (I assume
Youtube) and not of actually trying it out.

4.You ask for a 3 foot minimum. I am unsure where you get this length.
A sword it made according to the owner. At six foot, 36 inches works
for me. However, if I were 5'8" then 36 inches no longer even clears
the ground effectively. If someone has not shown you, lay your hand at
your side with a broomstick handle in it, cinch it up till it just
clears the ground by an inch or so, that is the sword length for you.

4. You fail to show evidence of true medieval weapons. The Wallace
Collection shows none to be in excess of 4 pounds. Most, including
longswords, are under 3 pounds.

5. You fail to show documentation of how swords are swung, only
assumptions. Our only training manuals of period are in rapier style,
the rest have to be estimates of a swords intent based on the opinion
of true swordsman. However if a grown man can inflict a serious
bludgeon force with a wrist snap I fail to see its lack of
effectiveness, If you do not feel one can be delivered with force
please come to the Kingdom of Atlantia. Medievally, longswords were
not sharp, they were used more as bludgeons designed to break limbs
under the armor. The also did not have flex on the blade edge, why
would we then want to make one have flex now. Wouldn't that go against
your desire to have an authentic feel?


Without any further evidence given, it sounds like you are asking for
a realistic weight weapon that wont hurt someone. The Rattan is
sufficiently weighted once it is made safe. It is sufficiently long
according to the owner. And if it breaks in the heat of the battle it
becomes pulp, not splinter.

The safety results within the SCA field stand for itself. Occasionally
someone does get hurt. At Estrella a man had a heart attack while on
the field, decide for yourself if this was related to combat stress.
At Gulf a woman was throat shotted by a spear and she is fine today
with intent to get back on the field. There are other minor cases as
well, but we are looking at 1 in 2000 with what someone may consider
an injury.

Compare that with other modern contact sports, that is the equivalent
  of 40 football games with only one injury. Although I admit rattan is
wood on a stick, I do not believe it is as lethal as you claim
considering the armor worn. And I fail to see your claims of it not
behaving properly without having held and shown how to swing one for
yourself.

From my personal view, it appears you have took it on yourself to
fight for change in something you have admittedly never tried, and
your avenue for this was a Newcomers group. May I suggest you register
at the www.armourarchive.org and talk with not just SCA people but
fighters in many styles of historical reproduction and state your opinion.

Howver, the boffer group in the SCA is all children.  They do not hit anywhere
near as hard as do the adults.

I guess I am not really understanding the purpose of the OPs thread.  If the
looks of the rattan swords is not the problem, why would we need to change?  The
boffer swords look even less like "real" swords than the rattan ones.  Real
metal ones (or even the wood replica type practice swords are much less safe
with the SCA style of combat (as has been mentioned already).  If we were to go
to flat swords (rather than the round rattan) the entire armor regs would have
to be revamped, as would the style of fighting to make it safe.

The OP also stated that the rattan swords are very dangerous if you hit a
person.  This is why we have minimum aror requirements for anyone involved in
the fighting.  And, as someone whose armor is almost entirely made of leather
(helm and knees are stell, but thats it) the flat blade types would do
significantly more damage to my person than a good whack from rattan.

If you don't like the way we do things in the SCA, ther are many historical
reinactment groups that use live steel and/or the foam covered PVC/polyethelene
weapons that are available to join.  Our style of fighting is one of the
specific ways the SCA has chosen to differ from these other groups.

Lady Sian verch Gwilim
Heavy fighter for the Kingdom of Atlantia


=============
On Sunday 30 March 2008 22:21:57 George C. P. M. wrote:
> However, aren't 99% of boffer swords pvc core? Not
> only that but the Thin-type of pvc? The boffer crowd doesn't seem to
> be suffering many impaling injuries.

On Monday 31 March 2008 07:35:32 Segehart wrote:
> your avenue for this was a Newcomers group. May I suggest you register
> at the www.armourarchive.org and talk with not just SCA people but
> fighters in many styles of historical reproduction and state your opinion.
>

I believe that Segehart and Chris Chastain have made an excellent suggestion
about this thread.

While I personally find this a very interesting discussion, this really is
not the right venue for it. May I respectfully ask that this thread either
end reasonably soon or be taken off-list?

This is not a "stop now" order, just a request to please not continue the
thread too much longer -- and it is a *request*, not a mandate. There are a lot
of subscribers on this list, and the few of us interested in this topic should
probably take the discussion elsewhere.

Note that I include myself in this request as well as others. :-)

Kind regards,

Justin
List Moderator

--
()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::>                   <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
keys fesswise reversed sable.

Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio)             http://4th.com/sca/justin/
justin@...        PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey

----- Original Message ----
From: George C. P. M. <gcpm@...>
To: scanewcomers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:21:57 PM
Subject: Re: [SCA Newcomers] My Rant + My Suggestion: SCA heavy combat lacks any
authenticity

>However, aren't 99% of boffer swords pvc core? Not
>only that but the Thin-type of pvc? The boffer crowd doesn't seem to
>be suffering many impaling injuries.
>Even if Thick-pvc can't handle 3 pound- 3 foot action, another
>material could be used as long as it had some flex to it to disperse
>impact force. Rattan and wood are too rigid for core materials.

It's called Boffer fighting, not SCA heavy combat for a reason. Any boffer
fighting you will see uses a different calibration than that of the SCA heavy
fighters. A good hit for boffer fighting is basically a tap. Heavy fighting has
a higher but still safe calibration range.


  >I should mention that I have seen videos of sca fighting with
>a "battleaxe."

If you are trying to make judgments based on videos you've seen on the web, then
you need to get out to some practices and try it on or go out to an event and
watch it happening for real. Videos just don't really show the reality of this
game we play.

> The "hits" were far too weak to be considered lethal
  >imho

Two comments here. One, the SCA has calibration for heavy fighting. There is a
specific understanding of how hard a hit is to be "good" and not counted as
"light" for example, for a face thrust just a touch is considered good because
anything harder could whip the head back causing whiplash. Every person who puts
on armor is taught the calibrations before they can take an authorization test.
At their authorization, they must prove to a marshal that they understand the
rules of the game (including calibration) and can play safely (not necessarily
well, just safely) and not put themselves or someone else in serious danger.  If
a marshal sees someone using more force than necessary, they can be removed from
the list. If the marshals see it as a continuing problem or as a severe enough
problem, they can have the fighter's authorization card pulled which prevents
them from fighting anymore. Secondly, have you read up on the "assumed" armor
that all fighters
  are wearing? Whether you choose to wear full plate or very minimal leather
armor, every man on the field is assumed to be wearing the same basic set of
armor. This understanding effects how hard a person must actually be hit for it
to be "lethal." Just because a guy is wearing plate on the field doesn't mean
the calibration for the hits he takes are higher than the guy in just minimal
leather. I'm sure someone else could go into more detail of what specifically
the "assumed armor" is. I can't think of what all exactly it is off the top of
my head. I just finished moving and my brain is still a bit frazzled.

> The weapon was too light as well.

Did you actually handle the weapon to determine if it is too light ? or did you
just see the guy swinging it and assume it was too light? You can not judge by
seeing something how heavy it truly is. I have handled very light swords that
are awkwardly balanced that I swing like it's a ton of bricks. I have handled
very heavy swords that are comfortably balanced for me and I swing them very
easily so it looks feather-light.


>lightweight and rather short rattan sca
>swords I see in the videos.

Again, have you handled the swords you are judging to be lightweight? and for
short, I'm guessing you've never seen guys fight with a great weapon or polearm
because polearms can be like 6 feet tall.

>Given two hours in home depot, I'm sure I
>could find something that would work for a core besides pvc.

The SCA has been around for 40+ years. Safety is the number one concern of those
who set up our rules and regulations. We have people who do all sorts of things
in the real world. Every sort of construction job, engineers, doctors, lawyers,
research scientists, even housewives,  you name it. If there was a better
material for weapons for SCA heavy combat out there, it would at the very least
be in the testing process right now.

  >Have any suggestions for a semi flexible core?

Again, it seems that you've never actually handled rattan or seen it in action
in real life. I see it flex all the time. I need to find the picture of the
boyfriend swinging his polearm. It flexes so much it looks almost C shaped. lol.

>Whoa! Most of the heavy combat melee I have seen wore either full or
>half plate. Maybe not metal, but high density plastic.

I know several heavy fighters who wear minimal (only the pieces which the SCA
actually requires) leather armor. Their armor consists of a helm, gorget, knees,
elbows, kidney protection, groin protection, and gauntlets (full or demi
depending if they are using a basket hilt or not). I'm sure I can find you some
pictures if you'd like to see. I know many folks in slightly more than minimal
more than leather armor because it's cheap and easy and we have a leather worker
locally who offers his shop and guidance to anyone wanting to make leather
armor.

>What I am suggesting are weapons that are less lethal than rattan,
>just heavier and slightly more flexible.

I've been told through out time that the insurance companies actually give SCA
Heavy Fighting a risk level equal to that of table tennis because of all our
safety measures in place. Whether that is actually true or not, I'm not totally
sure, but I do know that I've been around SCA heavy fighting for many years.
I've seen minor injuries like bruises and stuff (tell me those hits are light
now. I can show you pics of the bruises my boyfriend has received from those
axes you were talking about being light.) I've also seen things like sprained
ankles and even an occasional broken ankle/leg from stepping into a hole or onto
a root while out on a big melee field. Yes, rattan could be lethal if used
incorrectly, but the SCA has RULES and enforces the use of those rules. We don't
just let people beat each other to a pulp with wooden sticks. That would just be
silly. A lot of things can be lethal if used incorrectly. Haven't you seen the
"caution, hot coffee"
  statements on coffee cups from Mc Donald's or the "not a toy" printed all over
plastic bags? We don't stop using something because it could be dangerous. We
tell people how to use it safely. Could you picture a world without Mc Donald's
coffee?

>That the sca is conservative seems obvious.

We recreate the middle ages, of course we are conservative. LOL.

>I'm not so sure I agree
>with your explanation of their attitude. I mean come on, it's hard to
>make something MORE dangerous than a rattan stick. You can pretty
>much kill a person with one shot with a rattan stick. Being cynical,
>I wonder if there aren't other reasons why the sca doesn't use less
>lethal weapons like those I am suggesting.

Again, my answer is simple here. See everything I have said above. You obviously
are unaware of things like our rules and our safety record. If SCA Heavy
Fighting with rattan was so lethal, do you think we would have been able to do
it for over 40 years? I think the insurance companies, cops, and lawyers would
have stepped in long ago and stopped us. Again, find a copy of the SCA fighter's
handbook (available online at SCA.org) and also the handbook for the kingdom
within which you reside. Learn our rules and how we play, then judge our system.

I'm not really sure what you are implying with "being cynical..." What are you
trying to say? The SCA is in collusion with the rattan manufacturers? Seriously,
what are you getting at?

>I'm not familiar with any yahoo group like that.

search SCA Heavy Fighting
There are several myspace groups, yahoo groups and even tribe.net groups. There
are also many groups aimed towards armorers. There are also message boards
outside of "social networking" type sites that are geared toward SCA fighting
and armor.


I'm not trying to be rude, but it seems that you really need to learn a lot more
about the SCA and what we do before you try to pass judgment on anything we do.
Please feel free to ask questions so you can learn more, but don't judge our way
of doing things without knowing what we actually do first.

~Isabel
Middle Kingdom







      
________________________________________________________________________________\
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You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total
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> I guess I am not really understanding the purpose of the OPs
>thread.  If the looks of the rattan swords is not the problem, why
>would we need to change?

Because sca rattan sticks:

1. Do not in any way function/move similar to authentic steel
slashing swords that would cause trauma to someone wearing heavy
armor. Instead, they function more like Filipino Martial Art batons
as evidenced by nearly ALL videos of 1-hand sca sword fights.

2. Because rattan sticks are deadly


> The OP also stated that the rattan swords are very dangerous if you
>hit a person.  This is why we have minimum aror requirements for
>anyone involved in the fighting.  And, as someone whose armor is
>almost entirely made of leather (helm and knees are stell, but thats
>it) the flat blade types would do significantly more damage to my
>person than a good whack from rattan.

Yes, a flat blade would likely cause even more trauma than a deadly
rattan stick. I'm not suggesting using steel blades. I don't know why
people keep bringing it up.


> If you don't like the way we do things in the SCA, ther are many
>historical reinactment groups that use live steel and/or the foam
>covered PVC/polyethelene weapons that are available to join.  Our
>style of fighting is one of the specific ways the SCA has chosen to
>differ from these other groups.

It's just that I thought the SCA aimed for authenticity and currently
the baton style slashing of sca heavy combat doesn't resemble
authentic medieval broadsword fighting at all.

> I can't tell you about "the kind the champs use to win", because I
have
> not conducted an extensive survey. The ones used by myself and my
friends
> weigh about 14 ounces per linear foot. The SCA's legal limit in my
kingdom
> is 16 ounces per linear foot on most weapon types.

But no minimum weight.


> My sword is a mid-period design, common across most of Europe
throughout
> the Middle Ages but not even remotely elaborate. It's about 36
inches in
> length, blade width about 3 inches, with small steel quillons and
pommel.

Your steel sword's blade is 3 inches wide from base to point? If so
then it might function as a slashing weapon. 5 lbs too. Can you whip
it around as fast as people wield the rattan sticks in the videos?

> I think before you can change anyones mind within an organization
you
> would need to experience it. Few opinions not based on evidence are
> ever listened to. Within your arguments you have stated a number of
> admissions of fault.
>
> 1. You have stated you have never actually weighed a SCA legal
>sword,> but have assumed them to be at 1 pound.

Ya, I have since revised my observation. The sca 1-H swords in all
the tournament videos I have seen move like 1 pound martial art
batons. It is possible that their total weight is more than 1 pound,
but the center of mass must be near the hilt in order for someone to
beat them as quickly as they do.



>
> 2. You have stated it is impossible to throw a wrist snap of a 3 lb.
> object but have never try it, where SCA fighters throw them every
week.

It is impossible to swing a 3 pound, 36 inch stick with evenly
distributed weight as fast as the people in those tournaments are
swinging.



> 3. Your study of SCA combat has been stated as some videos (I assume
> Youtube) and not of actually trying it out.

Lots of videos and of official sca events. I will try it though.


> 4.You ask for a 3 foot minimum. I am unsure where you get this
length.
> A sword it made according to the owner. At six foot, 36 inches works
> for me. However, if I were 5'8" then 36 inches no longer even clears
> the ground effectively. If someone has not shown you, lay your hand
at > your side with a broomstick handle in it, cinch it up till it
just > clears the ground by an inch or so, that is the sword length
>for you.

Historically, a steel sword much shorter than 36 inches wouldn't be
able to generate enough impact force to function well as a slashing
weapon and sca fights are predominately slashing/bludgeoning strokes.


> 4. You fail to show evidence of true medieval weapons. The Wallace
> Collection shows none to be in excess of 4 pounds. Most, including
> longswords, are under 3 pounds.

The historical evidence is out there. Some 3 foot metal swords are
under 3 pounds, but their design limits them to piercing attacks.
Their blades are too thin to slash against a shield or plate armor
without breaking. All of the broad bladed slashing metal swords of 3
foot length are 3 pounds or more AND with their weight fairly evenly
distributed.



> 5. You fail to show documentation of how swords are swung, only
> assumptions. Our only training manuals of period are in rapier
style,> the rest have to be estimates of a swords intent based on the
opinion> of true swordsman.

I provided a link to a video showing two guys making a so-so effort
with metal swords. It is obvious that even if they maxed out their
intensity they would never be able to execute the rapid baton strikes
I see in the tournament videos.

> However if a grown man can inflict a serious
> bludgeon force with a wrist snap I fail to see its lack of
> effectiveness,

A stick is effective. It just doesn't resemble medieval slashing
sword fighting in any way.

> Medievally, longswords were
> not sharp, they were used more as bludgeons designed to break limbs
> under the armor. The also did not have flex on the blade edge, why
> would we then want to make one have flex now. Wouldn't that go
against > your desire to have an authentic feel?

Yes, the slight flex I suggest is unauthentic. The purpose is to
distribute the force of the blow more and cause less trauma.
My main goal is to have the Sword Movement resemble authentic
slashing swordplay instead of filipino baton fighting. That can be
accomplished with a slightly flexible core.



> Without any further evidence given, it sounds like you are asking
for
> a realistic weight weapon that wont hurt someone. The Rattan is
> sufficiently weighted once it is made safe. It is sufficiently long
> according to the owner. And if it breaks in the heat of the battle
>it > becomes pulp, not splinter.

I would argue that by the videos, the rattan swords aren't
sufficiently weighted.
Try this, I have. Take a 3 foot long 2x4. Cut out just enough wood to
be able to grip it. Make sure it still weighs about 3 pounds. Now
start a timer and see how many wrist snaps you can make with it in 30
seconds. Now do the same with one of the sca rattan swords that I see
in the videos. That's not even considering the ease with which a
baton can be reoriented compared to a metal slashing sword.



> Although I admit rattan is
> wood on a stick, I do not believe it is as lethal as you claim
> considering the armor worn.

Yes, the sca armor requirements are very good at preventing injury
while stick fighting. I have no problem with the sca armor rules.

> And I fail to see your claims of it not
> behaving properly without having held and shown how to swing one for
> yourself.

Why do I personally have to wield one to show it doesn't move like an
authentic metal sword? There are countless videos that shown the
rattan moving like a baton and plenty of videos showing metal swords
being wielded in an entirely different manner.

> May I suggest you register
> at the www.armourarchive.org and talk with not just SCA people but
> fighters in many styles of historical reproduction and state your
opinion.

Thanks for the link.

>If a marshal sees someone using more force than necessary, they can
>be removed from the list.

This actually speaks mountains about lack of authenticity. If a
player is actually forced to scale down the amount of force they use
then how can it even remotely resemble authentic sword fighting?
The problem imho is that rattan swords are too lethal and too light.

> Again, have you handled the swords you are judging to be
lightweight? and for short, I'm guessing you've never seen guys fight
with a great weapon or polearm because polearms can be like 6 feet
>tall.

I'm focusing on 1-hand swords. I don't need to try an sca sword to
understand it's nature. It's plain for anyone with eyes that they
move more like batons than steel slashing swords.


> I've been told through out time that the insurance companies
actually give SCA Heavy Fighting a risk level equal to that of table
tennis because of all our safety measures in place. Whether that is
actually true or not, I'm not totally sure, but I do know that I've
been around SCA heavy fighting for many years. I've seen minor
injuries like bruises and stuff (tell me those hits are light now. I
can show you pics of the bruises my boyfriend has received from those
axes you were talking about being light.) I've also seen things like
sprained ankles and even an occasional broken ankle/leg from stepping
into a hole or onto a root while out on a big melee field. Yes,
rattan could be lethal if used incorrectly, but the SCA has RULES and
>enforces the use of those rules.

Yes, the sca has done well to prevent injuries. No argument. So far
they have accomplished this at the expense of authenticity. I say
it's not necessary. You can use a less lethal weapon that weighs more
and capture the feel of authentic metal sword fighting.



> Again, my answer is simple here. See everything I have said above.
You obviously are unaware of things like our rules and our safety
record. If SCA Heavy Fighting with rattan was so lethal, do you think
>we would have been able to do it for over 40 years?

I didn't say "sca fighting with rattan" was lethal. I said rattan
sticks are lethal. The sca has made the fights non-lethal by:
1. Mandating armor (ok by me)
2. Mandating that people don't swing hard (not ok by me because it
lacks autheticity)
3. Allowing 1-h weapons to function like light-weight batons instead
of harder to swing metal slashing swords (not ok by me because it
lacks autheticity)


> I'm not really sure what you are implying with "being cynical..."
What are you trying to say? The SCA is in collusion with the rattan >
> manufacturers? Seriously, what are you getting at?

I don't know. Does the sca leadership poll it's members regularly
with ideas like mine to see if there are any who are interested?
I'd be suspicious of anyone who didn't routinely allow it's members
to vote on progressive ideas.
I went to the official SCA website. I see no member polls.
Must be nice for a handful of people to make the rules without asking
anyone.

FWIW: Here's a video comparing a steel sword and its capable movement vs. a
rattan club/sword.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx_DcrijSI4

Also FWIW: It takes alot of practices to be able to filp the rattan or steel
sword around using balance point attacks, or, wrist flicks as you're calling
them.  I've been fighting for a bit, less than a year, and even with pell
practice, I've barely just gotten the body mechanics to do that. I'm no
where near as fast as the guy in this video.

Also, no sword I own, live steel, re-enactment, stage prop, or decorative,
is balanced with the weight evenly distributed. they're all balanced toward
the hilt.  Now, that's the only documentation I have, my anecdotal
experience. My two SCA swords, I have a war sword and a dueling sword. both
rattan. One weighs 4lbs 12 oz. One weighs 5lbs 3 ounces. Both are 39 inches
of rattan with 1 inch of low profile thrusting tip, that is, four foam discs
wrapped in nylon webbing. The war sword (4lbs 12 oz) is tip heavy, and is
great for blocking, but not as fast as the dueling sword, which weighs more,
but is balanced closer to the hilt.

I think you'd find a happier home with ARMA.  They are much more authentic
about their weapon forms, or at least they try to be. The SCA is more about
competition, and most people do what works in context of the rules.  I
personally feel a large reason our combat is as close as it is is because
the lower leg is not a viable target. Again, that's all down to safety.

Good luck.

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:52 AM, George P. C. M. <gcpm@...> wrote:

>   > I think before you can change anyones mind within an organization
> you
> > would need to experience it. Few opinions not based on evidence are
> > ever listened to. Within your arguments you have stated a number of
> > admissions of fault.
> >
> > 1. You have stated you have never actually weighed a SCA legal
> >sword,> but have assumed them to be at 1 pound.
>
> Ya, I have since revised my observation. The sca 1-H swords in all
> the tournament videos I have seen move like 1 pound martial art
> batons. It is possible that their total weight is more than 1 pound,
> but the center of mass must be near the hilt in order for someone to
> beat them as quickly as they do.
>
> >
> > 2. You have stated it is impossible to throw a wrist snap of a 3 lb.
> > object but have never try it, where SCA fighters throw them every
> week.
>
> It is impossible to swing a 3 pound, 36 inch stick with evenly
> distributed weight as fast as the people in those tournaments are
> swinging.
>
> > 3. Your study of SCA combat has been stated as some videos (I assume
> > Youtube) and not of actually trying it out.
>
> Lots of videos and of official sca events. I will try it though.
>
> > 4.You ask for a 3 foot minimum. I am unsure where you get this
> length.
> > A sword it made according to the owner. At six foot, 36 inches works
> > for me. However, if I were 5'8" then 36 inches no longer even clears
> > the ground effectively. If someone has not shown you, lay your hand
> at > your side with a broomstick handle in it, cinch it up till it
> just > clears the ground by an inch or so, that is the sword length
> >for you.
>
> Historically, a steel sword much shorter than 36 inches wouldn't be
> able to generate enough impact force to function well as a slashing
> weapon and sca fights are predominately slashing/bludgeoning strokes.
>
> > 4. You fail to show evidence of true medieval weapons. The Wallace
> > Collection shows none to be in excess of 4 pounds. Most, including
> > longswords, are under 3 pounds.
>
> The historical evidence is out there. Some 3 foot metal swords are
> under 3 pounds, but their design limits them to piercing attacks.
> Their blades are too thin to slash against a shield or plate armor
> without breaking. All of the broad bladed slashing metal swords of 3
> foot length are 3 pounds or more AND with their weight fairly evenly
> distributed.
>
> > 5. You fail to show documentation of how swords are swung, only
> > assumptions. Our only training manuals of period are in rapier
> style,> the rest have to be estimates of a swords intent based on the
> opinion> of true swordsman.
>
> I provided a link to a video showing two guys making a so-so effort
> with metal swords. It is obvious that even if they maxed out their
> intensity they would never be able to execute the rapid baton strikes
> I see in the tournament videos.
>
> > However if a grown man can inflict a serious
> > bludgeon force with a wrist snap I fail to see its lack of
> > effectiveness,
>
> A stick is effective. It just doesn't resemble medieval slashing
> sword fighting in any way.
>
> > Medievally, longswords were
> > not sharp, they were used more as bludgeons designed to break limbs
> > under the armor. The also did not have flex on the blade edge, why
> > would we then want to make one have flex now. Wouldn't that go
> against > your desire to have an authentic feel?
>
> Yes, the slight flex I suggest is unauthentic. The purpose is to
> distribute the force of the blow more and cause less trauma.
> My main goal is to have the Sword Movement resemble authentic
> slashing swordplay instead of filipino baton fighting. That can be
> accomplished with a slightly flexible core.
>
> > Without any further evidence given, it sounds like you are asking
> for
> > a realistic weight weapon that wont hurt someone. The Rattan is
> > sufficiently weighted once it is made safe. It is sufficiently long
> > according to the owner. And if it breaks in the heat of the battle
> >it > becomes pulp, not splinter.
>
> I would argue that by the videos, the rattan swords aren't
> sufficiently weighted.
> Try this, I have. Take a 3 foot long 2x4. Cut out just enough wood to
> be able to grip it. Make sure it still weighs about 3 pounds. Now
> start a timer and see how many wrist snaps you can make with it in 30
> seconds. Now do the same with one of the sca rattan swords that I see
> in the videos. That's not even considering the ease with which a
> baton can be reoriented compared to a metal slashing sword.
>
> > Although I admit rattan is
> > wood on a stick, I do not believe it is as lethal as you claim
> > considering the armor worn.
>
> Yes, the sca armor requirements are very good at preventing injury
> while stick fighting. I have no problem with the sca armor rules.
>
> > And I fail to see your claims of it not
> > behaving properly without having held and shown how to swing one for
> > yourself.
>
> Why do I personally have to wield one to show it doesn't move like an
> authentic metal sword? There are countless videos that shown the
> rattan moving like a baton and plenty of videos showing metal swords
> being wielded in an entirely different manner.
>
> > May I suggest you register
> > at the www.armourarchive.org and talk with not just SCA people but
> > fighters in many styles of historical reproduction and state your
> opinion.
>
> Thanks for the link.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---- "George P. C. M." <gcpm@...> wrote:

=============


"It's just that I thought the SCA aimed for authenticity and currently
the baton style slashing of sca heavy combat doesn't resemble
authentic medieval broadsword fighting at all."



I think this is where you are running into your issue.  We are the Society for
CREATIVE Anachronism.  That creative part give us some leway.  It was set up
specificly knowing we are not a living history that solely strives for
authenticity.  Our fighting style (and the weapons and armout that go with it)
would never pass in one of the living history group.  We know it is not
perfectly accurate.  What we do, we do for the semblance of history, all the
while having fun in a safe manner.

The actual medieval style of broadsword (and other weapons) is actually part of
the ARt and SCiences in the SCA.  Historic Western Martial Art.  People
interested in the true art of sword fighting suddy texts and training manual
written during the middle ages.  SCA heavy fighting takes much of its base line
techniques training from this area, but our fighting is much different.

Regarding those things which are not ok by you;

#2: Some kingdoms hit harder than others. They have their own standards.
As for excessive force lacking authenticity;  Those limits are there to
keep our fighters healthy. Fighter practice is not as fun if you're alone.

#3: Solid SCA Rattan swords are heavier than a hollow PVC stick covered
with bedsheet cloth.

Slashing attacks in SCA combat do not provide enough impact against
armour, and thus you are not going to get credit for killing blows by
fighting with a slashing style. That is why you see us with a more
'blunt' baton style combat.

   - Pardus.


George P. C. M. wrote:
>
> I didn't say "sca fighting with rattan" was lethal. I said rattan
> sticks are lethal. The sca has made the fights non-lethal by:
> 1. Mandating armor (ok by me)
> 2. Mandating that people don't swing hard (not ok by me because it
> lacks autheticity)
> 3. Allowing 1-h weapons to function like light-weight batons instead
> of harder to swing metal slashing swords (not ok by me because it
> lacks autheticity)
>

On Monday 31 March 2008 11:13:14 George P. C. M. wrote:
> I don't know. Does the sca leadership poll it's members regularly
> with ideas like mine to see if there are any who are interested?
> I'd be suspicious of anyone who didn't routinely allow it's members
> to vote on progressive ideas.
> I went to the official SCA website. I see no member polls.
> Must be nice for a handful of people to make the rules without asking
> anyone.

M'lord, you are presuming a great deal about an organization based on the
fact that there are no polls on the web site.

We don't have polls on the SCA corporate web site for a number of reasons.
For one thing, it is difficult to have a web site poll that allows only
members but blocks out others, and which allows each person only to vote
once. Second, not all of our members have access to the Internet, so doing
our voting on the web site would discriminate against those without Internet
access. Third, while restricting polls to members is difficult, restricting
polls to members and non-member participants is technically infeasible.

The SCA has numerous ways for members to suggest changes or to comment on
changes that have been proposed. We have a Board of Directors whose members
are selected from the populace. Anyone may nominate someone for consideration
as a Director, and you may even nominate yourself. (You do have to be a paid
member, of course.)

Board members' contact information is published, as it that of all officers
at the corporate or kingdom level. Anyone may write to these individuals
or may telephone most of them to discuss any pertinent issue. There are two
different email addresses that reach the entire Board of Directors easily.

Every kingdom has a Board Ombudsman whose job is to ensure that members'
concerns are addressed appropriately. There is a Grand Council at the corporate
level that works on long-term strategic issues on behalf of the members, and
which offers a venue for comments from the populace.

Every kingdom has an Earl Marshal who supervises armoured combat, and there
is a corresponding Earl Marshal at the corporate level. Any of these officers
can be reached for comments or suggestions easily.

As for your comment about a handful of people making the rules....

1. Policy changes enacted by the Board occur after an open comment period.
    Anyone is welcome to subscribe to the SCA announcements email list which
    carries all the requests-for-comment. They are also published in hardcopy
    in the kingdom newsletters that are sent to all paid members.
    http://lists.sca.org/listinfo/announcements

2. The rules are made by a large corps of volunteer officers and by the royalty.
    Any paid member can volunteer as a candidate for office, with a pretty good
    chance of being selected, if you're reasonably competent and get along well
    with others. I myself have served in numerous offices at local, kingdom,
    and society level. So have many others on this list.

3. Every one of our Directors is a paid, participating member of the SCA. They
    go to events and fight and take/teach classes and eat feast just like
    everyone else. In short, "they" who make the rules are really "us".

I've been a fighter for about ten years. During that time, I have seen many
cases in which suggestions from fighters and Marshals were considered and
adopted -- after careful safety testing -- by the people who make the rules.
Combat archery, low-profile thrusting tips, face thrusts, and numerous other
innovations have all resulted from membership suggestions that were enacted
into the rules. It is by no means a closed process.

The process of approving new weapon or armour standards moves slowly. This is
intentional! In safety, it is better to move slowly and be right, than to move
rapidly and be wrong. Also, moving slowly is what allows the populace to
participate in the process -- the only way to enact new rules fast would be
to have a small group make the decisions without input from others, exactly
the thing you are criticizing.

Join the SCA. Become an authorized fighter. Spend some time learning about what
we do, firsthand, so that you have the "street cred" to know what you're
talking about. Decide what you think can be improved, then write a proposal
for the changes.

I reiterate what I said earlier today -- this thread really belongs in a venue
more specific to fighting discussion rather than this general newcomers' list.
Please, let's agree to take this off-list.

Kind regards,

Justin

--
()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::>                   <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
keys fesswise reversed sable.

Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio)             http://4th.com/sca/justin/
justin@...        PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey

maybe you could make a yahoogroup.com group for this discussion alone. it would
have a lot of people.

   I have not read all the rest of it, some one may have suggested it already.

Justinos Tekton called Justin <justin@...> wrote:
           On Monday 31 March 2008 07:35:32 Segehart wrote:
> your avenue for this was a Newcomers group. May I suggest you register
> at the www.armourarchive.org and talk with not just SCA people but
> fighters in many styles of historical reproduction and state your opinion.
>

I believe that Segehart and Chris Chastain have made an excellent suggestion
about this thread.

While I personally find this a very interesting discussion, this really is
not the right venue for it. May I respectfully ask that this thread either
end reasonably soon or be taken off-list?

This is not a "stop now" order, just a request to please not continue the
thread too much longer -- and it is a *request*, not a mandate. There are a lot
of subscribers on this list, and the few of us interested in this topic should
probably take the discussion elsewhere.

Note that I include myself in this request as well as others. :-)

Kind regards,

Justin
List Moderator

--
()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::> <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
keys fesswise reversed sable.

Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio) http://4th.com/sca/justin/
justin@... PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey





---------------------------------
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users and friends.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have one more addition to this discussion, and I beleive this is pertinent to
the NewCommers list.

George,

You seem to be under the impression (based on your comments) that authenticity
is our main goal.  This is not the case.  While many people in the SCA work very
hard on the authenticity of their persona (we even have competitions for such),
but others are more general.  If we were true all about the authenticity, how
could we allow someone who is a Roman legionaire to fight with or against
someone whose is late 15th centry French.   At the last melee event I went to my
team was made up of 7-8 14th entury or later Europeans, 2 romans legionaires, a
Japanese samuri and 2 11-12th century celts.  This is why the true-to-history
groups usually have narrow time frames for their gatherings.  Rarely more than a
100 year span.  They get their enjoyment by doing it the way it was done during
that time period.  They use period specific weapon, garb and accessories.

Vikings did not use personal heraldry on their shields, but in the SCA they can
if they wish.  My girlfriend is also a 12th century celt and is the head
lady-in-waiting to our baroness whose persona is 15th century French.  Not
something you would evey see in period, for either of them.  The SCA has
distinguished itself as different from the traditional living history societies
on purpose and we all joined know, accepting and sometimes soley because of our
"inauthenticities.  Many of our members are also members of living history
groups and enjoy the differences very much.

So please come out and met us in person and get a feel for "how we play".

In your service,
Lady Sian verch Gwilim ap Lewelin
SCA member, Heavy fighter for the Kingdom of Atlantia
Chamberlain and Deputy Herald
for the Barony of Ponte Alto

This actually speaks mountains about lack of authenticity. If a
player is actually forced to scale down the amount of force they use
then how can it even remotely resemble authentic sword fighting?


Authentic sword fighting is aiming to kill. We try to avoid that...


Laurensa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Monday 31 March 2008 13:00:38 mry wlsn wrote:
> maybe you could make a yahoogroup.com group for this discussion alone.

A pretty good idea, though I don't personally have the time to do it. Perhaps
the person who started the thread would like to do so.

Justin

--
()xxxx[]::::::::::::::::::>                   <::::::::::::::::::[]xxxx()
Maistor Justinos Tekton called Justin (Scott Courtney)
Gules, on a bezant a fleam sable and on a chief dovetailed Or two
keys fesswise reversed sable.

Marche of Alderford (Canton, Ohio)             http://4th.com/sca/justin/
justin@...        PGP Public Key at http://4th.com/keys/justin.pubkey

In a message dated 3/30/2008 9:17:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
briana.delaney@... writes:

<<Does anyone know how to make a ruff "collar"?>>

My husband has done some, but there are different styles of ruffs.   What
exactly are you looking for?  The ones we did involved a "ruff  machine".
basically a jig made of a piece of wood with dowels stuck into it to  wrap the
strip
of fabric around to make the pleats, lots of spray starch, and  some very
annoying sewing the pleats onto the bands before taking the ruffs off  the
machine.


Brangwayna  Morgan
Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
Lancaster,  PA



**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030\
000000001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't know what type per se, but made to resemble the one in this picture:

http://www.historicum.dk/historiske_dragter/renaessance/R0313/

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 5:12 PM, <bronwynmgn@...> wrote:

>   In a message dated 3/30/2008 9:17:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> briana.delaney@... <briana.delaney%40gmail.com> writes:
>
> <<Does anyone know how to make a ruff "collar"?>>
>
> My husband has done some, but there are different styles of ruffs. What
> exactly are you looking for? The ones we did involved a "ruff machine".
> basically a jig made of a piece of wood with dowels stuck into it to wrap
> the strip
> of fabric around to make the pleats, lots of spray starch, and some very
> annoying sewing the pleats onto the bands before taking the ruffs off the
> machine.
>
>
> Brangwayna Morgan
> Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
> Lancaster, PA
>
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> Home.
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>
http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom000300\
00000001
> )
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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>


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In a message dated 3/31/2008 5:33:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
briana.delaney@... writes:

<<I don't know what type per se, but made to resemble the one in  this
picture:

_http://www.historicum.dk/historiske_dragter/renaessance/R0313/_
(http://www.historicum.dk/historiske_dragter/renaessance/R0313/)    >>

It looks similar to the ones we did, but I can't tell if the one in the
picture has pointed pleats or rounded ones.  The ruffs we made had rounded 
ones.
I'll pass on my husband's contact info to you privately; he may be able to
help you out.


Brangwayna  Morgan
Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
Lancaster,  PA



**************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.renaissancetailor.com/store/store_ruffs_bw.htm

and you can buy them too.  Or get an idea how to make them.  I think
that using a fine wire around the edges would mold and hold better and
you could spray startch them in place.