Having grounded and pressed a bushel of apples to make cider this year; and
having made cyser with sliced whole apples I can't recommend either.

You don't want sweets, (pies, crisps, etc) so I would offer 'Pork and Apples'
recommended for thanksgiving by 4 out of 5 turkeys.

3-4 apples
1 1/2 lbs pork chops
1/4 cup brown sugar
1/2 tsp cinnamon
2 Tbsp butter

Brown chops on both sides (10 minutes total)
Core and slice 3-4 unpeeled apples, lay slices in baking dish, cover with sugar
and cinnamon, dot with butter, and lay chops on top.

Cover and bake at 350 F for an hour. Apples will be tender and pork will be
cooked through.

Dorigen


> Sister gave me a bag of apples and not sure what to do with them..I don't eat
sweets so figured I could make a drink with them..Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Elena
>

> Sister gave me a bag of apples and not sure what to do with them..I don't
> eat sweets so figured I could make a drink with them..Any
> suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Elena



Apple Liqueur





1 ½ cup honey

1 ½ cup water

2 ½ lbs green (not quite ripe) apples

1 teaspoon lemon zest

~1" piece of cinnamon stick

3 cups vodka

Bring water and honey to boil on medium heat, skimming foam off as it rises.

When clear, remove from heat and let stand until just warm.

Quarter and core apples.

Slice thin into 2-qt jar.

Pour syrup over apples and add rest of ingredients.

Age 1 month.

Fine rack into final container.

Age 1 month.

Yield: ~ 1 ½ quarts

Sister gave me a bag of apples and not sure what to do with them..I don't eat
sweets so figured I could make a drink with them..Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Elena

Teachers!  Estrella Arts and Sciences Collegium needs you!

Estrella is a great place to meet other artisans who share your passion and to
learn from each other.

To be a part of this exciting process, please sign up to teach at

http://www.estrellawar.org/Activities/ArtsandSciences/ASTeacherSignUpForm.aspx

Artisans!  Artisan Alley returns for its second year, bigger than before.  In
both the Collegium tent and Period Demo Center there will be room for practicing
arts and sharing the creative spirit of others.  Come join us between 10-5
Wed-Sat, 12-3 Sun of War.

I look forward to hearing from you soon,

Dame Jennifer Trethewy

Cranium@... wrote:
> Jeff,
>
> I am interested in what sources your information is from; is it from
> Brewing or Vinting books?  The reason I ask is not to be
> argumentative, but my background is almost exclusively brewing and
> all my books and education say the opposite (once the wort has been
> oxigeonated and fermentation is started, leave it alone until you
> rack).  My understanding of Vinting (with hardly any education, just
> from talking with vinters and comparing methods) is that there are
> reasons to agitate the must; to rouse the yeast, as it likes to
> flocculate out and can stall fermentation, and for reds to maximize
> contact with the skins.

Let me state from the outset I don't know beans about wine.  But I
flatter myself I know a thing or two about brewing.

"Leave it alone" is a good rule of thumb.  However, like all rules,
there are exceptions.  Most beer-yeast strains are perfectly happy to be
pitched and left to do their thing.  Some are not so simple to work
with; some exceptionally flocculent strains often need to be coaxed to
completion through rousing. Ringwood springs to mind.

There are many methods of rousing.  Since I deal primarily with
traditional English "open" fermentation, a sanitized paddle gently
swirling the beer (being careful to gently scrape the flocculate from
the floor of the vessel) is standard.  Rousing can also be accomplished
in a conical, through the introduction of CO2 through the valve at the
apex of the cone.  Gently rocking a carboy back and forth will also suffice.

> My understanding from training and personal experience is that the
> yeast should only have O2 at the start of the fermentation.
> Dr White has done some personal research about dissolved O2 and
> homebrewing, as there has been controversy about too much O2 damaging
> the yeast (which it definitely can), and found that anything short of
> dissolving the O2 into the wort under pressure cant generate those
> levels.

Yeast should only be exposed to O2 at the start, yes.  As Dr White
notes, it's almost impossible to introduce enough oxygen to damage
brewer's yeast - recent research has shown introducing more than 9-10ppm
is highly unlikely using standard brewery equipment - and it's really,
really hard to introduce damaging levels of O2 thereafter using standard
brewing methodology.

If you dribble your green beer from one vessel to another, or pump it
under pressure so it shoots out like a garden hose, you can introduce
excess O2, which will set up the development of staling-flavor
precursors.  Even then, given sufficient time - and a fresh dosing of
bottle-conditioning yeast - those precursors can be reduced during
conditioning.

Nevertheless, gentle rousing will not develop staling precursors,
especially if the wort/must is still under krauesen.

That said, rousing need not be a standard part of brewery procedure.
Careful note of gravity over time should be kept and the beer should be
roused at appropriate times.  Once the yeast has reached what looks like
terminal gravity, ain't no amount of rousing gonna help; you have to
rouse when the ferment starts to prematurely slow, but *before* it
stops.  Use your hydrometer to plot the ferment.  If it looks like it's
going to stop short of where you think it will end, rouse it.  If it
stops short, if you fail to catch it in time, rouse it anyway.  You
never know if it'll tick off another few degrees Plato.

Yeast is a living organism which speaks in a language we don't
understand.  Brewing science only goes so far.  =)

Regards,

Bob

SCA: Robert Fairfax (East)

Jeff,

I am interested in what sources your information is from; is it from Brewing or
Vinting books?  The reason I ask is not to be argumentative, but my background
is almost exclusively brewing and all my books and education say the opposite
(once the wort has been oxigeonated and fermentation is started, leave it alone
until you rack).  My understanding of Vinting (with hardly any education, just
from talking with vinters and comparing methods) is that there are reasons to
agitate the must; to rouse the yeast, as it likes to flocculate out and can
stall fermentation, and for reds to maximize contact with the skins.

Now I also note you said you agitate which in a carboy with an airlock or blow
off tube would likely not introduce more O2 as the fermentation process will
create a CO2 blanket pushing other gasses up and out, but just bring the yeast
and any trub up off the bottom and back into suspension.  looking at it this way
I think we may be talking about different things.

Here is a pretty good document I found that looks to be a BJCP training
presentation.
http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/bjcpclass/Yeast%20and%20Fermentation.pdf
The section on yeast starts on page 30.

My understanding from training and personal experience is that the yeast should
only have O2 at the start of the fermentation.  I actually use an inline O2
injection setup like pro systems have, and notice that I have a longer lag than
when I used a drop in stone (with pure O2).  I have talked to a number of
people, including Dr. Chris White from Whit Labs, and I believe that what is
going on for me is a slightly longer lag/respiration phase as the yeast use the
O2 and start reproduction.

Dr White has done some personal research about dissolved O2 and homebrewing, as
there has been controversy about too much O2 damaging the yeast (which it
definitely can), and found that anything short of dissolving the O2 into the
wort under pressure cant generate those levels.  IIRC using air through a filter
and stone will take 30 min to generate "good" saturation levels.  Sorry but I
can find the documentation for this at the moment. (I thought it was on the web
site, but I could be wrong)

Here is a discussion thread I found on yeast and O2:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/crabtree-effect-over-aeration-128187/
A lot of it is getting in to somewhat heavy microbiology, and as the discussion
shows there is contradictory information out there.

Cheers!
Jason The Mad Brewer


---- Jeff Sandison <puppeteer_@...> wrote:
>
> Really, because that is at odds with everything I've ever read, I've always
been told to vigorously agitate for the at least one minute every day
(preferably twice/day) during the primary fermentation.
>
> Jeff "If there is anything the nonconformist hates worse than a conformist,
it's another nonconformist who doesn't conform to the prevailing standard of
nonconformity." --Bill Vaughan
>
>
>
>
>
> To: sca_brew@yahoogroups.com
> From: Ludwig@...
> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:42:29 -0400
> Subject: Re: [SCA_Brew] Newbie question
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Oxygen is necessary for the initial reproduction of the yeast. But
reproduction happend very quickly then yeast cycle go to eating sugar and
producing alcool. Reproduction phase:  About 6h to 24h from pitchin a dry pack,
less if you have already make a starter .
>
> This is the only phase where yeast need / should have oxygene. After that,
avoid introducing oxygen in the fermenting wort, since the alcool production
need to be done 'without oxygen' or problem may/will occur.
>
> In short to 'when should I stir/agitate' : usually at pitching time and
possibly anytime in the next 12h.
>
> By the time you read this answer, that means don't stir this batch ;-)
>
> Ludwig
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri 10/30/09 16:51 , "ozmodiusnc" ozmodiusnc@... sent:
>
>
> Greetings all,
>
> Ive been lurking here for a bit, so I guess I should introduce myself...
> Michelangelo Giacomo Mastrogiovanni here from Barony Hawkwood in Atlantia. I
am new to vinting, and just started my first batch of mead yesterday. I made and
used a yeast starter that was similar in sg as my must, so after only an hour or
so, it started fermenting like gangbusters. This is my question: Do I need to,
and if so, how often, stir/agitate the must during the primary fermentation?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> YIS
> Michelangelo
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> CDN College or University student? Get Windows 7 for only $39.99 before Jan 3!
Buy it now!
> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691636

 

Really, because that is at odds with everything I've ever read, I've always been told to vigorously agitate for the at least one minute every day (preferably twice/day) during the primary fermentation.

Jeff "If there is anything the nonconformist hates worse than a conformist, it's another nonconformist who doesn't conform to the prevailing standard of nonconformity." --Bill Vaughan


 

---

To: sca_brew@yahoogroups.com
From: Ludwig@megaquebec.net
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:42:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [SCA_Brew] Newbie question

 

Oxygen is necessary for the initial reproduction of the yeast. But reproduction happend very quickly then yeast cycle go to eating sugar and producing alcool. Reproduction phase:  About 6h to 24h from pitchin a dry pack, less if you have already make a starter .
This is the only phase where yeast need / should have oxygene. After that, avoid introducing oxygen in the fermenting wort, since the alcool production need to be done 'without oxygen' or problem may/will occur.
In short to 'when should I stir/agitate' : usually at pitching time and possibly anytime in the next 12h.
By the time you read this answer, that means don't stir this batch ;-)
Ludwig




On Fri 10/30/09 16:51 , "ozmodiusnc" ozmodiusnc@yahoo.com sent:

Greetings all,

Ive been lurking here for a bit, so I guess I should introduce myself...
Michelangelo Giacomo Mastrogiovanni here from Barony Hawkwood in Atlantia. I am new to vinting, and just started my first batch of mead yesterday. I made and used a yeast starter that was similar in sg as my must, so after only an hour or so, it started fermenting like gangbusters. This is my question: Do I need to, and if so, how often, stir/agitate the must during the primary fermentation?

Thanks in advance,

YIS
Michelangelo



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Oxygen is necessary for the initial reproduction of the yeast. But reproduction happend very quickly then yeast cycle go to eating sugar and producing alcool. Reproduction phase:  About 6h to 24h from pitchin a dry pack, less if you have already make a starter .

This is the only phase where yeast need / should have oxygene. After that, avoid introducing oxygen in the fermenting wort, since the alcool production need to be done 'without oxygen' or problem may/will occur.

In short to 'when should I stir/agitate' : usually at pitching time and possibly anytime in the next 12h.

By the time you read this answer, that means don't stir this batch ;-)

Ludwig

On Fri 10/30/09 16:51 , "ozmodiusnc" ozmodiusnc@... sent:

Greetings all,

Ive been lurking here for a bit, so I guess I should introduce myself...
Michelangelo Giacomo Mastrogiovanni here from Barony Hawkwood in Atlantia. I am new to vinting, and just started my first batch of mead yesterday. I made and used a yeast starter that was similar in sg as my must, so after only an hour or so, it started fermenting like gangbusters. This is my question: Do I need to, and if so, how often, stir/agitate the must during the primary fermentation?

Thanks in advance,

YIS
Michelangelo



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca_brew/

<*> Your email settings:
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<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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Greetings all,

Ive been lurking here for a bit, so I guess I should introduce myself...
Michelangelo Giacomo Mastrogiovanni here from Barony Hawkwood in Atlantia. I am new to vinting, and just started my first batch of mead yesterday. I made and used a yeast starter that was similar in sg as my must, so after only an hour or so, it started fermenting like gangbusters. This is my question: Do I need to, and if so, how often, stir/agitate the must during the primary fermentation?

Thanks in advance,

YIS
Michelangelo

Greetings all,

Ive been lurking here for a bit, so I guess I should introduce myself...
Michelangelo Giacomo Mastrogiovanni here from Barony Hawkwood in Atlantia. I am
new to vinting, and just started my first batch of mead yesterday.  I made and
used a yeast starter that was similar in sg as my must, so after only an hour or
so, it started fermenting like gangbusters.  This is my question:  Do I need to,
and if so, how often, stir/agitate the must during the primary fermentation?

Thanks in advance,

YIS
Michelangelo

Replied privately.


--- In sca_brew@yahoogroups.com, Keith Howard <khoward001@...> wrote:
>
> Dorigen -
> (cut)
> Aengus mac Farlane
>

Dorigen - I mention Odwalla only because it is a company that has (and had) very strict sanitation procedures and vendor requirements for their raw ingredients, yet they still made people sick. Yes, the one death was a 16 month old baby (which is a tragedy) but no, not all the people who got sick were children. E coli can also send an adult to the hospital with food poisoning, and has. Because of this, I don't appreciate your insinuation about who I give my alcoholic beverages too. Age is irrelevant.

I did not post my thoughts on this because I am trying to tell Garrioch that he "has" to pasteurize his cider. I just wanted to give him more information before the decision to pasteurize or not is made. There is post after post talking about the advantages of using the un-pasteurized cider, which I do not dispute, but not one single person mentioned any possible risk.

Basically it boils down to this... Advantages of un-pasteurized cider = higher end quality product ....Disadvantages = chance people could get sick, although the chance is slight.

Aengus mac Farlane

Living in a State in which unpasteurized cider is difficult to obtain, I find it
difficult to understand why, after finding good cider you would want to
pasteurize it.

> I am going to go against the grain here. I recommend pasteurization
>or at least flash pasteurization. Sure pasteurization can alter the
>flavor, but not a lot. Sure pasteurization will cause the cider to
>lose nutrients, but you are making an alcoholic beverage.

I would be interested to see your research and comparative examples. I have
worked with both pasteurized and "raw" cider, and find a noticeable difference
in the quality of the beverage and the ease of starting the fermentation. Yeast
is a creature, it requires certain nutrients to survive and breed. One period
reference (this is an SCA activity) recommends including a pork chop in your
barrel of cider and notes you will find a clean bone when the barrel is empty.

> Unpasteurized apple juice and apple cider can carry e coli 157.
>Regardless of the steps taken to make sure that the cider and juice
>is safe, there is never a guarantee that unpasteurized juice or cider
>is safe (just ask Odwalla juice company).

In the Odwalla case the victims were children. The single death was to a 16
month old baby. Who do you serve your alcoholic beverages to?


> If you cannot say 100% that your cider was not made with apples
>picked up off of the ground, then you cannot say it is 100% safe
>without it being pasteurized. The alcohol you produce may kill any
>e coli that might be present in your finished product, but I am not
>100% sure and why risk it.

If we follow this line of logic to it's conclusion then any apple sold in a
store which you can not document the handling and transport could have contacted
a "ground drop" and should be pasteurized before eating.

In conclusion, buy from a reputable source, sulfite, use known yeasts, practice
good cleaning techniques, and never believe you will get cider from apple juice.

Dorigen of Lewes

I am going to go against the grain here. I recommend pasteurization...or at
least flash pasteurization. Sure pasteurization can alter the flavor, but not a
lot. Sure pasteurization will cause the cider to lose nutrients, but you are
making an alcoholic beverage...I doubt people will worry about if it is healthy.
Sure pasteurization will cause the finished product to be "cloudy", but you can
always use a clarifying agent such as isinglass.

Unpasteurized apple juice and apple cider can carry e coli 157. Regardless of
the steps taken to make sure that the cider and juice is safe, there is never a
guarantee that unpasteurized juice or cider is safe (just ask Odwalla juice
company).

If you cannot say 100% that your cider was not made with apples picked up off of
the ground, then you cannot say it is 100% safe without it being pasteurized.
The alcohol you produce may kill any e coli that might be present in your
finished product, but I am not 100% sure and why risk it.

Just my thoughts,

Aengus mac Farlane

My thoughts from several years of cider and cyser making.

Don't try to pasteurize it will set the pectin. Commercial cider mills use a
`flash' pasteurization process either with a short exposure to steam or
ultraviolet light.

Treat you cider as soon as you get it. By this I mean add Campden (two tablets
per gallon, Grind before adding) and pectic enzyme. The pectic enzyme will aid
in clearing your cider sometimes in a day or two. The Campden will suppress the
native yeast and OTHER MICROBES. This will establish an open field for the yeast
you should be adding immediately. Commercial wine yeasts are campden resistant
so they will start their process and out compete the native yeast. Don't worry
about your friends with their campden headaches and allergies. The SO2 will out
gas from an unsealed carboy inside a week, with an active fermentation in
progress the SO2 will be stripped out even quicker.

I regard to period cider the pectic enzyme is off base but I am dealing with the
modern estetic of clear beverages. The campden is the period equivalent of
burning sulfur candles in barrels, thereby adding SO2 to the cider when it was
first barreled.

Dorigen of Lewes
East Kingdom


--- In sca_brew@yahoogroups.com, "garrioch2000" <garriochlochsmythe@...> wrote:
>
>  I have purchased nonpasteurized nonperservative  apple cider from an apple
farm and am planning to make a hearty alcoholic scrumpy cider.  My question is
should I pasteurize the cider myself before brewing or w
> ill that effect the end results in negative way?
>
> Garrioch of Lochsmythe

At 03:07 PM 10/7/2009, you wrote:
>Honey is not antibiotic once it is diluted else
>you could never get a ferment started in a mead, cyser, etc.
>
>Honey is antibiotic largely because it is
>extremely hygroscopic and has an extremely low
>level of water activity.  However, once you have
>it diluted in juice or water that property is no longer extant.

Antibiotic is too broad a term for this discussion.

Honey has certain anti-bacterial properties that
actually increase when diluted up to a
point.  (There is some enzyme reaction that
produces Hydrogen Peroxide in honey that is a
significant problem for bacteria, but not so much for yeast).

You are right on the antibiotic properties with
respect to yeast. The wild yeast in honey doesn't
go because there's not enough water. Once you
dilute it, that goes away.  But it's very
difficult to make a honey vinegar.  The dilution increases the H2O2 content.


  From
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html:

The fact that the antibacterial properties of
honey are increased when diluted was clearly
observed and reported in 1919 [21]. The
explanation for this apparent paradox came from
the finding that honey contains an enzyme that
produces hydrogen peroxide when diluted [22].
This agent was referred to as 'inhibine' prior to
its identification as hydrogen peroxide [23]; the
term 'inhibine number' was coined as a measure of
the relative antibacterial potency of different
honeys, it being the number of steps by which a
honey could be diluted and still inhibit bacterial growth [24].

21. Sackett WG. Honey as a carrier of intestinal
diseases. Bull Colorado State Univ Agric Exp Stn 1919; 252: 1-18.

22. White JW, Subers MH, Schepartz AI. The
identification of inhibine, the antibacterial
factor in honey, as hydrogen peroxide and its
origin in a honey glucose-oxidase system. Biochim Biophys Acta 1963; 73: 57-70.

23. Dold H, Du DH, Dziao ST. Nachweis
antibakterieller, hitze- und lictempfindlicher
Hemmungsstoffe Inhibine im Naturhonig Blütenhonig
[Detection of the antibacterial heat and
light-sensitive substance in natural honey]. Z
Hyg Infektionskr 1937; 120: 155-67.

24. Dold H, Witzenhausen R. Ein Verfahren zur
Beurteilung der örtlichen inhibitorischen
(keimvermehrungshemmenden) Wirkung von
Honigsorten verschiedener Herkunft [Method of
evaluation of the local inhibitory
(antibacterial) substances of honeys from various
origins]. Z Hyg Infektionskr 1955; 141: 333-7.


       Verba Movent - Exempla Trahunt
Words move people, Example compels them

      Godfrey Thacker of Northumberland.

At 10:37 AM 10/7/2009, you wrote:
> > I have purchased nonpasteurized nonperservative apple cider from an
> > apple farm
>
>You win! :-)


Well, the other side to that is that it may be easier to get
unpasteurized, nonperservative cider than it is to get pasteurized
preservatived cider.

But yeah.  You'll set the pectins.


       Verba Movent - Exempla Trahunt
Words move people, Example compels them

      Godfrey Thacker of Northumberland.

I totally agree with Eadric - I wouldn't pasteurize, though I might stabilize
post-fermentation.  Hey, if it turns out well, we'd be glad to taste it and
offer feedback on the process...(kidding, I'm kidding - mostly!)

Cheers,
Sorcha Prechan
Royal Brewer
--- In sca_brew@yahoogroups.com, "garrioch2000" <garriochlochsmythe@...> wrote:
>
>  I have purchased nonpasteurized nonperservative  apple cider from an apple
farm and am planning to make a hearty alcoholic scrumpy cider.  My question is
should I pasteurize the cider myself before brewing or w
> ill that effect the end results in negative way?
>
> Garrioch of Lochsmythe
>

You could also suppress other bugs by adding some honey to your cider...its naturally antibiotic properties will suppress the bacteria, allowing the yeasts to do their work. Just a little bit of insurance...

> I have purchased nonpasteurized nonperservative apple cider from an
> apple farm

You win! :-)

> ...and am planning to make a hearty alcoholic scrumpy cider.
> My question is should I pasteurize the cider myself before brewing or
> w ill that effect the end results in negative way?

I would not pasteurize it at all.   I might do a pH check and
make sure that it is range of your yeast.  Check your SG and
adjust to desired levels.  If you want big, you might need to
add a bit of sugar or honey.

Get a good, healthy starter batch of yeast going, temper it
with the cider for a round or two to build up the volume too.

> Garrioch of Lochsmythe

Enjoy,
jdl

You could also suppress other bugs by adding some honey to your cider...its
naturally antibiotic properties will suppress the bacteria, allowing the yeasts
to do their work.  Just a little bit of insurance...

 I have purchased nonpasteurized nonperservative apple cider from an apple farm and am planning to make a hearty alcoholic scrumpy cider. My question is should I pasteurize the cider myself before brewing or w
ill that effect the end results in negative way?
Garrioch of Lochsmythe

I have purchased nonpasteurized nonperservative  apple cider from an apple farm
and am planning to make a hearty alcoholic scrumpy cider.  My question is should
I pasteurize the cider myself before brewing or w
ill that effect the end results in negative way?

Garrioch of Lochsmythe

Come celebrate our 25th anniversary!!
The Right Noble Brewers Guild of Caid will be hosting our 5th Annual
Inter-Kingdom Brewing Contest at Great Western War. The Contest will take place
Saturday October 10th 2009. Contest entries will be accepted between 8 a.m to 10
a.m. in the Arts and Sciences area. Results and bottle return will be
(hopefully) during the Taste of Great Western from the hours of 9 p.m. and 11
p.m. No more than 9 entries (no more than 3 per category) per contestant will be
accepted. There will be a charge of $3.00 per entry CASH ONLY no checks will be
accepted. For more information contact brewcontest@.... The prize
medallions are back again this year and in celebration of our 25th year the best
of show medallion will be made of SILVER!

Site: This event will take place during the Great Western War which is held in
Buena Vista Aquatic Recreational Area located at 13601 Ironbark Rd, Taft, CA
93268


Event Stuard: For a full copy of the brewing contest rules please visit
http://brewers.sca-caid.org/gwwbc/GWWBC5.htm or contact Reinhardt Medebruer
(Scott Horner) 716 W. Berkeley Ct. Ontario, Ca. 91762 (909)467-3575
brewingcontest@...

Note: We are in no way associated with the InterKingdom Brewers Guild