--- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, coyote Silverpaw <ancientone@...> wrote:

> My options now are finding them locally (within the country) or learning to
make them myself! Does anyone have any experience with this?

I'm guessing that hush means no. If you think it would be helpful, I can take
some detail photos of the inside and outside of my hats and post them to the
group later tonight.

Saionji no Hanae  
West Kingdom

>>If you think it would be helpful, I can take some detail photos of the inside
and outside of my hats and post them
 
That would be immensely helpful!
As photos online are very limited...
 
Any ideas where to pick up straw???
I am thinking a local farmers market... but hay is not the same as straw
Other idea is to get straw brooms from local asian supermarket??
 
Kenji

call me coyote, call me raven, call me something else
youd be right, youd be wrong!
Find something worth dying for, and LIVE for it!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:29 AM, coyote Silverpaw
<ancientone@...> wrote:
>>>If you think it would be helpful, I can take some detail photos of the inside
and outside of my hats and post them
>
> That would be immensely helpful!
> As photos online are very limited...
>
> Any ideas where to pick up straw???
> I am thinking a local farmers market... but hay is not the same as straw
> Other idea is to get straw brooms from local asian supermarket??
>

You do not want straw brooms.  "Rice straw" is very different and
closer to raffia than to "straw".  Raffia is easy to get at most craft
stores.

I've tried to find rice-farming groups who are trying to find ways to
get rid of their wasted product (the rice straw), but so far no luck
as I've been on the east coast, in the past, not the west.  If you are
anywhere in the west coast area, see if you can't contact some rice
farms and find out what they do with the leftover straw.  You may be
able to harvest it, if you live in the area.

-Ii

--- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, coyote Silverpaw <ancientone@...> wrote:
> That would be immensely helpful!
> As photos online are very limited...

I've uploaded them to my Flickr account because you can enlarge the view much
more than you can in our YahooGroups photo albums. (Click on the magnifying
glass for "All Sizes" at the top of the photo to do so.) You may have to
cut/paste the URL if YahooGroups drops part of it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/70104978@N00/4404906427/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/70104978@N00/4405670252/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/70104978@N00/4405671448/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/70104978@N00/4404909787/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/70104978@N00/4405673560/

This is the sando gasa I bought several years ago from Bokunan-do. You can see
that it has a definite radial structure. The original atadamai was also straw.
(I cannot be certain if it is rice straw or bamboo. The site refers to them as
"rush hats.") I replaced it last summer with the fabric pad and rolled fabric
atadamai last summer after a blow-out. What you can't see is that there is a
flat plastic ring attached to the center of the hat. That's what I've sewn the
harness to.

If you manage to come up with a fabrication method, I do hope you'll share!

Saionji no Hanae
West Kingdom

Original message appears to have been deleted in error. Apologies from the
Moderator!

From: "Victoria" <victoria@...>
To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com

I've been thinking about having a Japanese persona for some time now, and since
I want to get my SCA membership soon, I would like to bring it all together. I
know that a persona isn't needed for membership, but I want one!

My main interests in Japanese history are military history, art, textiles and
maybe one day dance and music (I'd love to learn biwa or one of the fue), but
right now I'm not really focused on any particular time period... there's
something interesting about all of them! I have considered 15th/16th century
though, due to the Sengoku period, and the Heian period due to the fascinating
court lives.
I've got a very faint concept of a persona, mainly based on my real life
abilities (as in, lack of sewing skills!) - relatively young, unmarried, not
particularly high-ranking but still someone who'd be present at court.

I'm also rapidly becoming a stick jock, and for now my armour will be black
plastic covered with a big tunic but one day I hope to make Japanese armour. It
would be absolutely fantastic if I could include my fighting in my persona's
story and still stay female - but of course, I'm aware that it isn't necessary
in the SCA and is probably unlikely or non-existant historically.
Any advice?

As for names, I've been working on it for a while and I've already found out a
lot. There's a few things I don't understand though, mainly in the
surname/family name area.
I've heard that women did not use family names in some time periods, they used
'uji' - I've read that uji are something like clan names, but can anyone give me
a simple explanation?

Welcome!

On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 11:29 PM, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:

> My main interests in Japanese history are military history, art, textiles and
maybe one day dance and music (I'd love to learn biwa or one of the fue), but
right now I'm not really focused on any particular time period... there's
something interesting about all of them! I have considered 15th/16th century
though, due to the Sengoku period, and the Heian period due to the fascinating
court lives.
> I've got a very faint concept of a persona, mainly based on my real life
abilities (as in, lack of sewing skills!) - relatively young, unmarried, not
particularly high-ranking but still someone who'd be present at court.

As someone who does all time periods, play with different eras that you like!

> I'm also rapidly becoming a stick jock, and for now my armour will be black
plastic covered with a big tunic but one day I hope to make Japanese armour. It
would be absolutely fantastic if I could include my fighting in my persona's
story and still stay female - but of course, I'm aware that it isn't necessary
in the SCA and is probably unlikely or non-existant historically.
> Any advice?

Remember, your persona story does not have to fit everything you do.
After all, I do personas from several different centuries (and
continents):  how would I be expected to fit all of that in?

It is unlikely, not non-existant, to see women fighting in Japan.
That said, I wouldn't bother justifying it.  Just do what you want to
do.  Don't worry that it won't be "justified"

> As for names, I've been working on it for a while and I've already found out a
lot. There's a few things I don't understand though, mainly in the
surname/family name area.
> I've heard that women did not use family names in some time periods, they used
'uji' - I've read that uji are something like clan names, but can anyone give me
a simple explanation?

Okay, "uji" were originally the clans determined by the court; the
names were regulated, and this was actually part of the way the
government was structured.  Later on, you see the term "uji" thrown
about, and today people talk about this and that "uji", but there is
still a distinction between family/clans that arose on their own and
ones with court sanction.

Families are just families.  Often they are descended from an uji, so
they are subbranches (though even families could have further
subbranches, later on).  For our purposes, they all work as family
names, and you would likely be known by that name.  Depending on the
time, place, and situation, you might go by your title, your position,
your family name, or you uji name (if you have claim to one).  It all
depends on what the occasion is.


-Ii

Goode lady
  If there is NO one period that calls to you and you wish to incorporate your
fighting into your personae ...  I would like to mention Tomoe Gozen to you.... 
And her retinue of female fighters.

William S. Giltner

  Lrd Tatsuo Okami

Iron River Armoury

www.iron-river-armoury.com

--- On Sun, 3/7/10, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:


I'm also rapidly becoming a stick jock, and for now my armour will be black
plastic covered with a big tunic but one day I hope to make Japanese armour. It
would be absolutely fantastic if I could include my fighting in my persona's
story and still stay female - but of course, I'm aware that it isn't necessary
in the SCA and is probably unlikely or non-existant historically.

Any advice?






<!






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 12:16 AM, William Giltner
<iron_river_armoury@...> wrote:
> Goode lady
>   If there is NO one period that calls to you and you wish to incorporate your
fighting into your personae ...  I would like to mention Tomoe Gozen to you.... 
And her retinue of female fighters.
>
Just a note:  The historical nature of Tomoe Gozen as a fighter is
doubted.  Still, it is an example of the Japanese *idea* of a woman at
war (as would be Empress Jingu).

-Ii

I've been thinking about having a Japanese persona for some time now, and since
I want to get my SCA membership soon, I would like to bring it all together. I
know that a persona isn't needed for membership, but I want one!

My main interests in Japanese history are military history, art, textiles and
maybe one day dance and music (I'd love to learn biwa or one of the fue), but
right now I'm not really focused on any particular time period... there's
something interesting about all of them! I have considered 15th/16th century
though, due to the Sengoku period, and the Heian period due to the fascinating
court lives.
I've got a very faint concept of a persona, mainly based on my real life
abilities (as in, lack of sewing skills!) - relatively young, unmarried, not
particularly high-ranking but still someone who'd be present at court.
I'm also rapidly becoming a stick jock, and for now my armour will be black
plastic covered with a big tunic but one day I hope to make Japanese armour. It
would be absolutely fantastic if I could include my fighting in my persona's
story and still stay female - but of course, I'm aware that it isn't necessary
in the SCA and is probably unlikely or non-existant historically.
Any advice?

As for names, I've been working on it for a while and I've already found out a
lot. There's a few things I don't understand though, mainly in the
surname/family name area.
I've heard that women did not use family names in some time periods, they used
'uji' - I've read that uji are something like clan names, but can anyone give me
a simple explanation?

Noble Cousin!

Greetings from Solveig! You can probably best integrate the things
that you are interested in if you are from the early Kamakura period.
That is from about the time of the Genpei War up through the Jokyu
Disturbance. Basically, you will have recognizable military folks
around, you will be able to own and control land, andd even fight.

Your Humble Servant
Solveig Throndardottir
Amateur Scholar

Forwarded by Moderator: For some reason, Yahoogroups is behaving a bit oddly
with some of our messages. Hopefully, the delay will be fixed shortly.


Goode lady
   If there is NO one period that calls to you and you wish to incorporate your
fighting into your personae ...  I would like to mention Tomoe Gozen to you.... 
And her retinue of female fighters.

William S. Giltner

Lrd Tatsuo Okami

Iron River Armoury

www.iron-river-armoury.com

And another one, forwarded by Moderator

Good Morning Everyone:

After searching several popular temari sites, reading through SCA instructor
handouts, scanning 4 modern book introductions and peeking into the group's
archives, I am coming up dry.

Can you help?  Do you, or someone you know, have literary, artistic or (the
dream) archeological evidence for temari before 1600?

I,like thousands of others, have fallen in love with the art form.  I would like
to teach it, but hate to do so with out some proof of its existence somewhere
during our time period.

I am grateful for any assistance you are able to render or for the knock on the
head for missing something that is out there.  I am limited to English and that
might be the problem. ;-)

~Apollonia Voss

--- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
> Can you help?  Do you, or someone you know, have literary, artistic or (the
dream) archeological evidence for temari before 1600?

Try searching on "kemari."
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/kemari.html has some information on this
period football game and an image of a game ball, which, as you can see, is very
plain.

I have a feeling that the decorative form you're interested in is yet another
art form that developed during the Edo period.

Saionji no Hanae
West Kingdom

Noble Cousins!

Greetings from Solveig! While hardly authoritative, the following web
page does claim that temari made from silk originated in the
Muromachi period while those made from cotton originated in the Edo
period.

http://hanatemari.web.fc2.com/page009.html

Your Humble Servant
Solveig Throndardottir
Amateur Scholar

Thank you for all the help and good advice!
I'm quite certain I will end up mixing activities from many different times -
I'm already finding an interest in European calligraphy.

That makes much more sense about uji names now, as well as all the given name,
nickname, and title mixing that goes on in medieval Japanese history.

I've heard about Tomoe Gozen, and it's good to hear that even if she is not a
traceable historic figure, she was at least a period concept.

The Kamakura period looks interesting, I'll certainly look into that. So, after
the Jokyu period, did women's roles in society become more restricted?
I've heard of things like kunoichi (something like female ninja/spies, I think)
and the wives of samurai learning some combat skills in order to defend their
homes in later periods, but it does seem like these are more like women in
subservient roles more than independant women making their own choices.

I can never remember whether I'm supposed to tie my obi in the back or in
the front.  I've heard that during some time period only courtesans would
tie their obi one of the two ways (but of course I can never remember
which).

When did that come about, and how do we know that anyway?

Thanks!

ERIN


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

*Blush*
 The obi thing comes from Rate of customer satisfaction (per/Hour)
*nosebleed*
 A proper lady would have hers tied in the back (as Normal) a Street courteasan
would have hers tied in the front (easier and FASTER to get to).

  At least that is my understanding from listening to one lady take pleasure in
recounting how she had shown a lady (that she didnt like) to tie it in the
front.

William S. Giltner

  Lrd Tatsuo Okami

Iron River Armoury

www.iron-river-armoury.com

--- On Tue, 3/9/10, Erin Kelly <tupan4@...> wrote:

From: Erin Kelly <tupan4@...>
Subject: [SCA-JML] Obi "rules"
To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 8:17 AM







 









       I can never remember whether I'm supposed to tie my obi in the back or in

the front.  I've heard that during some time period only courtesans would

tie their obi one of the two ways (but of course I can never remember

which).



When did that come about, and how do we know that anyway?



Thanks!



ERIN



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:17 PM, Erin Kelly <tupan4@...> wrote:
> I can never remember whether I'm supposed to tie my obi in the back or in
> the front.  I've heard that during some time period only courtesans would
> tie their obi one of the two ways (but of course I can never remember
> which).

I haven't seen anything to conclude that there was anything like this in period.

Most obi on women appear to be tied in front, though there are other
ways to do it.  Remember they are not/not the large obi you see
elsewhere.

-Ii

On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:23 PM, William Giltner <
iron_river_armoury@...> wrote:

>
>
> *Blush*
>  The obi thing comes from Rate of customer satisfaction (per/Hour)
> *nosebleed*
>  A proper lady would have hers tied in the back (as Normal) a Street
> courteasan would have hers tied in the front (easier and FASTER to get to).
>
>   At least that is my understanding from listening to one lady take
> pleasure in recounting how she had shown a lady (that she didnt like) to tie
> it in the front.
>
> William S. Giltner
>
> Lrd Tatsuo Okami
>

I believe you were misled, or the lady was misinformed.  At least she would
appear to have shown her disliked rival a more appropriately period
practice, which I doubt was intended!

As Lord Ii said, most women's obis in SCA period appear to have been tied in
front.  It didn't indicate a thing about negotiable affection.

For a far more complete analysis, including references to period art, see
our own Saionji-hime's excellent article at her website:
http://wodefordhall.com/editorials.htm

- Abe Akirakeiko.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:23 PM, William Giltner
<iron_river_armoury@...> wrote:
> *Blush*
>  The obi thing comes from Rate of customer satisfaction (per/Hour)
> *nosebleed*
>  A proper lady would have hers tied in the back (as Normal) a Street
courteasan would have hers tied in the front (easier and FASTER to get to).
>
>   At least that is my understanding from listening to one lady take pleasure
in recounting how she had shown a lady (that she didnt like) to tie it in the
front.
>

Fortunately, the lady (if she should be called that) who was
attempting to dupe another did not know what she was talking about.
That may be an Edo period tradition, but it definitely isn't in our
period of study:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/3986721182/in/set-72157622402471317/

That's from "The Maple Viewers".  These are all respectable people
(men on one side, women on the other), and look at the obi on these
women.  I'm willing to bet they'd have words with anyone who called
them prostitutes.

There are many more such pictures we can dig up.

-Ii

--- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ellen Badgley <flyingrat42@...> wrote:
> For a far more complete analysis, including references to period art, see
> our own Saionji-hime's excellent article at her website:
> http://wodefordhall.com/editorials.htm

You beat me to it.

Saionji no Whew

Good Morning Everyone:

After searching several popular temari sites, reading through SCA instructor
handouts, scanning 4 modern book introductions and peeking into the group's
archives, I am coming up dry.

Can you help?  Do you, or someone you know, have literary, artistic or (the
dream) archeological evidence for temari before 1600?

I,like thousands of others, have fallen in love with the art form.  I would like
to teach it, but hate to do so with out some proof of its existence somewhere
during our time period.

I am grateful for any assistance you are able to render or for the knock on the
head for missing something that is out there.  I am limited to English and that
might be the problem. ;-)

~Apollonia Voss

Apollonia,
   I have been trying to find concrete evidence of this for a number of
years, but all I seem to find is anecdotal information...  I have contacted
the Japan Toy Museum about Temari, and gotten some info from them.  Let me
see if I can dig it up.  There is also a Museum dedicated to Temari in
Tokyo, however it is not on-line. I have been looking to see if I can find
someone that can translate a letter to mail to them..
Mizuno/Meadhbh

>
> -
> Shannon Keys
> Meadhbh inghean Thaidgh ui Dohmnaill
> Mizuno Sakami
> Visit my webpages!
> http://www.ladypyrate.webs.com
> http://www.freewebs.com/damaskrosetemari
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Discovered this quite by accident while channel surfing this evening:

Turner Classic Movies is running Kurosawa films on Tuesday evenings through the
month of March.

http://www.tcm.com/thismonth/article/?cid=290029'

Saionji no Hanae
West Kingdom

I am going to be in London for the Gerald Gardner Seminar on 12 September
2010.

Planning to arrive a few days early, leave a few days later, enjoy the
sights.  get into trouble<g>.

Still working on a place to stay BUT...
...I understand that some people here are in that area and was wondering if
anyone wants to meet and visit?
Or if anyone knows where the <bleep> theSeminar is being held???



--
Rick Johnson
http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
"Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security
will soon find that they have neither."


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Obi were tied at the front by all women until fairly recent time periods. 
Around the Edo period, courtesans (called oiran or tayuu) started tying the in
the front, while other women started tying theirs in the back.

This was not, as commonly speculated, because it was easier to untie that way,
but because tying obi in the front was the style of that time period for married
women, and courtesans were in effect "wives for a night."

Source: "Kimono: Fashioning Culture" by Liza Dalby, The Costume Museum of Kyoto
Website, various references cited at Immortal Geisha Forums

I believe that in the Heian through Sengoku periods, front-tied obi for women
were almost (if not completely) universal.  I can't think of any period sources
indicating a back-tied obi; perhaps Saionji-hime might have some more references
about this, though, as she's more the expert on period women's fashion? :?

I was told by Lady Solveig that women generally had it worse after the Jokyu
Disturbance.
I'm interested in gender politics in history (as well as having thought about a
15th/16th c. persona), and I'd like to know more since I've found it difficult
to track down info online.
What powers did women have pre-Jokyu that were restricted afterwards? I'm
assuming owning land and inheriting from family members, etc.

I've heard about women in manlike roles after the Jokyu Disturbance too - I
think the wives of samurai were allowed to learn some combat skill to defend
their homes. I've also read about a lady called Mochizuki Chiyome (16th c.?) who
recruited unwanted and orphaned girls to train them as ninja/spies, as well as
the apparent existance of female ninja elsewhere. Would it be right to guess
that these sort of situations were more due to acting in emergencies and for
other people's gain rather than being the choice of the women involved?

Ah, so I would have known this if I'd made more progress on my resolution to
actually READ books instead of just buy them (and look at the pictures).

Saionji-sensei's article (link elsewhere in the thread) is very helpful too.  I
think I had actually read that before, and that's why I didn't remember it being
an issue.

Thanks, everyone!

ERIN

--- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "heiannoyukiume" <whitefeatherart@...> wrote:
>
> Obi were tied at the front by all women until fairly recent time periods. 
Around the Edo period, courtesans (called oiran or tayuu) started tying the in
the front, while other women started tying theirs in the back.
>
> This was not, as commonly speculated, because it was easier to untie that way,
but because tying obi in the front was the style of that time period for married
women, and courtesans were in effect "wives for a night."
>
> Source: "Kimono: Fashioning Culture" by Liza Dalby, The Costume Museum of
Kyoto Website, various references cited at Immortal Geisha Forums
>

Hey, is anyone from here going to Gulf Wars?  I usually see a few of my
countrymen around there, but if there's anyone from this list I should seek out
and say hi to, chime in!

I will be accompanying a small army from Aethelmearc that includes many fighters
in Japanese armor, so we should be easy to spot around battle time.  (The one
with the white belt is Sir Koredono, who's had a Japanese persona for ages and
ages.)

ERIN
/ Lady Elaine Fairchilde
/ she who really should get a Japanese name one of these days

--- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "heiannoyukiume" <whitefeatherart@...> wrote:
> I believe that in the Heian through Sengoku periods, front-tied obi for women
were almost (if not completely) universal.  I can't think of any period sources
indicating a back-tied obi; perhaps Saionji-hime might have some more references
about this, though, as she's more the expert on period women's fashion? :?

I don't recall having seen any iconographic evidence for back-tied obi prior to
1600, however, costume designer Emi Wada may know something I don't. She put the
female retainers in "Ran" in back-tied obi about 3" wide. This makes practical
sense if one is performing tasks where dangling obi ties are going to get in
one's way, but I don't know what historical evidence it's based on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjyAC2ENl5I is a production video from "Ran" that
shows the outfits to which I am referring.

Saionji no Hanae
West Kingdom