I have a multiple day trip coming up on a rails-to-trails trail and
there's going to be multiple stops to ride some single-track along
the way.  I'd like to haul my MTB with my X but don't want to spend
mucho $$ on the Tray Bien.  My initial brainstorm is to use a loop
(possibly a wide loader or something I make myself) with an extra
front to back piece that would trap the front tire.  I don't see a
great necessity to completely suspend the extra bike so I was just
planning on letting the back wheel roll on the ground.  I would then
need to secure the top of the trapped tire to keep everything from
tipping over.

So far I haven't seen or heard anything similar to this, so I'm
wondering if anyone here has tried anything similar or has any better
ideas than what I've been coming up with so far?

Also, has anyone here found any off-the-shelf products that might
work for this?  I've tried using conduit before but have yet to find
one that has the correct diameter.  Someone once told me that I need
to get aluminum conduit but I haven't found that locally.

Thanks,
Wes

You can do it on the cheap.

See:

http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_1777&bgcolor=black

http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_3054&bgcolor=black

http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_3221&bgcolor=black

There's not much going on -- you want the other bike clamped in close
to the freeradical and snapdeck, and you want it clamped relatively
well both high and low.  You might want a towel, or some cardboard, to
protect against damage from the hub and tire.

An old inner tube, front-to-back across the widest part of the tire,
might help a lot.  The last picture (the raleigh) was the least stable
because the top was wobbling too much.  On another day, I towed that
bike ten miles, with little or no trouble.


On 2009-02-11, at 7:59 AM, watrout wrote:

> I have a multiple day trip coming up on a rails-to-trails trail and
> there's going to be multiple stops to ride some single-track along
> the way. I'd like to haul my MTB with my X but don't want to spend
> mucho $$ on the Tray Bien. My initial brainstorm is to use a loop
> (possibly a wide loader or something I make myself) with an extra
> front to back piece that would trap the front tire. I don't see a
> great necessity to completely suspend the extra bike so I was just
> planning on letting the back wheel roll on the ground. I would then
> need to secure the top of the trapped tire to keep everything from
> tipping over.
>
> So far I haven't seen or heard anything similar to this, so I'm
> wondering if anyone here has tried anything similar or has any better
> ideas than what I've been coming up with so far?
>
> Also, has anyone here found any off-the-shelf products that might
> work for this? I've tried using conduit before but have yet to find
> one that has the correct diameter. Someone once told me that I need
> to get aluminum conduit but I haven't found that locally.
>
> Thanks,
> Wes
>
>
>

The tongue is almost certainly too long.  That is, there is not enough
distance from the kickstand attachment point, to the rear dropouts.

On 2009-02-11, at 10:25 AM, The DINKs wrote:
> Does anyone have any idea if a free radical can be outfitted for a
> 20" bike?

Hi Andrew,

I don't understand this one, but maybe it's because my freeloaders are
getting on towards 3 years old...

Can you post pictures?

Thanks,

CL

--- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Kreps <andrew.kreps@...>
wrote:
> The new Freeloader straps:  I received a 'service bulletin' with the
> installation instructions that made the issue of the strap not
slipping over
> the chainring bolt sound like a problem.  I actually like having the
bags
> lock to the frame this way.  If it were me, I'd play this up as a
benefit.
> Mention that they lock underneath the bolt as shipped, but you can
make them
> quick-release by removing the extra plastic.

While a FreeRadical might be too long to attach to a bike frame originally
made for 20" wheels, there may be another option.
Get a bike frame originally made for 26" wheels, but get it in as small a
frame-size as you can find. Once you have that, then get at least one 20"
rear wheel, which is disc brake compatible or a 20" wheel with a coaster
brake. You will never be able to set up horse-shoe/V-brakes for braking on
the rim though because brake mounts for those kinds of brakes would be too
far from the rim of the 20" wheels.
For the front wheel you should be able replace the fork for one more
suited for a 20" wheel, then you should be able to get either rim or disc
brakes.

20" wheels with disc brake compatibility are not as readily available, but
they are definitely out there, particularly if you look around for wheels
marketed to recumbent riders.

The other concern you should have in doing this is making sure any 20"
wheel you get has a hub wide enough to fit properly into the FreeRadical's
drop outs. Other than that the only thing you will probably need to worry
about is how weird the bike might look with all the extra dead space
around the rear wheel. :)
_TONE_

David,

Thanks for the feedback.  I probably should have mentioned I want to
set the wheel out away from the freeloaders because I'm planning on
having them filled up with camping gear.  That's why I was thinking
about the method I described.

--- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, David Chase <dr2chase@...>
wrote:
>
> You can do it on the cheap.
>
> See:
>
> http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_1777&bgcolor=black
>
> http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_3054&bgcolor=black
>
> http://gallery.mac.com/dr2chase#100060/IMG_3221&bgcolor=black
>
> There's not much going on -- you want the other bike clamped in
close
> to the freeradical and snapdeck, and you want it clamped
relatively
> well both high and low.  You might want a towel, or some cardboard,
to
> protect against damage from the hub and tire.
>
> An old inner tube, front-to-back across the widest part of the
tire,
> might help a lot.  The last picture (the raleigh) was the least
stable
> because the top was wobbling too much.  On another day, I towed
that
> bike ten miles, with little or no trouble.

I think the handling might be affected (for a long trip, especially)
if the trailing bike is too far off centerline.  Maybe, you just wrap
the front wheel in a beach towel, and pack up against it, and cinch it
tight?  Ideally the wheel can still wiggle relative to the fork, so
that the trailing bike easily tracks up and down.


On 2009-02-11, at 11:55 AM, watrout wrote:

> David,
>
> Thanks for the feedback. I probably should have mentioned I want to
> set the wheel out away from the freeloaders because I'm planning on
> having them filled up with camping gear. That's why I was thinking
> about the method I described.
>

(oops, meant to get this to the group, not just Wes)


I'm looking to do a bike transport as well, want to be able to take my
trials bike with me via the X to the park or wherever. Lots easier to
ride the X a few miles than a trials bike.

What I'm looking at is mounting a basic fork mount off the back of the
Xtracycle frame. Something like you'd see that can bolt to the edge of
a truck bed. Take the front wheel off, mount the fork in there, stash
the front wheel freeloaders.

The trailed bike should be nice and solid, with minimal wiggle, and
good trail since the front end won't be raised up much, if any, above
normal.


-- Ian



On Feb 11, 2009 4:59am, watrout <watrout@...> wrote:
>
> >
> I have a multiple day trip coming up on a rails-to-trails trail and
>
>
> there's going to be multiple stops to ride some single-track along
>
>
> the way. I'd like to haul my MTB with my X but don't want to spend
>
>
> mucho $$ on the Tray Bien. My initial brainstorm is to use a loop
>
>
> (possibly a wide loader or something I make myself) with an extra
>
>
> front to back piece that would trap the front tire. I don't see a
>
>
> great necessity to completely suspend the extra bike so I was just
>
>
> planning on letting the back wheel roll on the ground. I would then
>
>
> need to secure the top of the trapped tire to keep everything from
>
>
> tipping over.
>
>
>
>
>
> So far I haven't seen or heard anything similar to this, so I'm
>
>
> wondering if anyone here has tried anything similar or has any better
>
>
> ideas than what I've been coming up with so far?
>
>
>
>
>
> Also, has anyone here found any off-the-shelf products that might
>
>
> work for this? I've tried using conduit before but have yet to find
>
>
> one that has the correct diameter. Someone once told me that I need
>
>
> to get aluminum conduit but I haven't found that locally.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Wes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-----Original Message-----
From: watrout
Sent: Feb 11, 2009 7:59 AM
To: rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rootsradicals] Want to haul an extra bike with my X - need design ideas

I have a multiple day trip coming up on a rails-to-trails trail and
there's going to be multiple stops to ride some single-track along
the way. I'd like to haul my MTB with my X but don't want to spend
mucho $$ on the Tray Bien. My initial brainstorm is to use a loop
(possibly a wide loader or something I make myself) with an extra
front to back piece that would trap the front tire. I don't see a
great necessity to completely suspend the extra bike so I was just
planning on letting the back wheel roll on the ground. I would then
need to secure the top of the trapped tire to keep everything from
tipping over.

So far I haven't seen or heard anything similar to this, so I'm
wondering if anyone here has tried anything similar or has any better
ideas than what I've been coming up with so far?

Also, has anyone here found any off-the-shelf products that might
work for this? I've tried using conduit before but have yet to find
one that has the correct diameter. Someone once told me that I need
to get aluminum conduit but I haven't found that locally.

Thanks,
Wes

> We included an extra pair of feet on the axles because, over time, you will
wear down the feet
> as you engage your KickBack over rough surfaces like concrete/pavement/etc.

See, this is why we ask questions.  I was so busy trying to find an
immediate functional use for those things, it never occurred to me
that they might be spares.  Very nice.

It's entirely possible that my instruction sheet had the loctite tip
on it.  While I did glance through them after I installed the plastic
collars backwards, I'm generally much more of a do-er than a reader.

Thanks for the quick feedback, and keep up the good work!

Hey guys, great feedback so far - thanks I appreciate it.  A couple
issues I see about using a fork mount and I've looked into this
option previously:

#1:  You have to take off the front wheel to mount the extra wheel.
Not a big deal, but if I can make it work without taking off the
wheel I'd prefer it.  Again, mainly because I'll already be pretty
packed up and I think it would be eaiser not having to deal with
stowing away the loose wheel.

#2:  In order to make this work well the front fork needs to be able
to pivot at the clamping point.  I'm not sure how the clamp is
mounted in those Flickr photos but unless it pivots on the free
radical tube it probably becomes troublesome whenever you encounter
uneven surfaces (picture going through a ditch without the trailing
bike being able to pivot).  I have heard of people mounting an old
bike hub to a bar and mounting the front fork to that, which should
work fine, but it seemed like that method would be more difficult
than what I had in mind (although I'm beginning to if my idea isn't
better in theory than in practice).

I hope I'm not stifling ideas here, I'm just trying to continue
clarifying what I'm looking for.

I took a trip to the local hardware store and bought some cheap rubber feet for
stools/crutches. They work wonderfully on the ends of the KickBack - provide
more
friction when setting the stand.

Phil

-

--- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Kreps <andrew.kreps@...> wrote:
>
> > We included an extra pair of feet on the axles because, over time, you will
wear down
the feet
> > as you engage your KickBack over rough surfaces like concrete/pavement/etc.
>
> See, this is why we ask questions.  I was so busy trying to find an
> immediate functional use for those things, it never occurred to me
> that they might be spares.  Very nice.
>
> It's entirely possible that my instruction sheet had the loctite tip
> on it.  While I did glance through them after I installed the plastic
> collars backwards, I'm generally much more of a do-er than a reader.
>
> Thanks for the quick feedback, and keep up the good work!
>

so i just got the 26" free radical kit second hand.  i had a bike
lined up to mount it on (Giant Sedona), but it  has a bent frame and
probably wont work.  The person who bent the frame, with her car,
offered up some money to replace it.

SO  What's the best bike to mount it on?

  It has a disc brake caliper on it, so disc brakes would be sweet, but
i think i can still put cantilever brakes on it. I'm looking for
either a frame or complete bike for mostly rides under 10 miles
hauling stuff. i have a road bike for long rides. the new bikes needs
to be able to handle a hilly city and a hilly suburb which i guess is
just a matter of gearing ratio.

any ideas?

From: "joshhoxie" <joshhoxie@...>
>
> any ideas?

Please note that cantilever brakes won't work on the Xtracycle - it's v-brakes
or disc only.

As for bike suggestion: without knowing your budget, the general
recommendation is something with a rigid (no front or rear suspension) steel
frame. If it's got low gearing, so much the better. The ability to run nice
wide tires (2"+) is also desirable, especially if you will be carrying heavier
loads (100lb.+) frequently.

I used a 1992 Kona Lava Dome and it seems it was just about exactly what they
designed the Xtracycle around. Aside from having to upgrade to v-brakes and
replacing the old wornout wheelset (along with some more voluntary upgrades),
everything was very straightforward and easy. I did the work myself at the
local bike co-op.

Hope that helps,

Steve

From: "watrout" <watrout@...>
> I have a multiple day trip coming up on a rails-to-trails trail and
> there's going to be multiple stops to ride some single-track along
> the way.  I'd like to haul my MTB with my X but don't want to spend
> mucho $$ on the Tray Bien.

Having done a fair amount of Tray Bien-less bike hauling with my X, I guess I
can weigh in. I've mostly done the "stuff the front wheel in one of the
Freeloaders" approach and while it works pretty well for most road bikes with
steeper geometry, it sucked pretty bad when I tried with my old Schwinn(?)
beach cruiser with really slack geo. The headtube was just at a lousy angle
and it made the bike tow really poorly (at least until I removed the front
wheel and just stuffed the fork in - but then it was really hard to strap down
securely).

Which has led me to conclude that the best way to "trail a bike" (to borrow a
term) is by removing the front wheel and affixing some kind of quick release
bracket to the "No Step Step" (as Tone calls it), be it an old front hub (as
shown in photos floating around the interwebs and linked at least a few times
from this list) or else one of the various pickup truck bed mounting blocks
with quickrelease sold by Yakima or Thule (I think the Yakima product is
called the Low Rider or some such). This keeps the headtube of the towed bike
in the most optimal position for towing, i.e. most similar to how it is
normally.

I suggest (if you haven't done this already) that you do some experimenting
with towing just by sticking the wheel in one of the bags and see how you like
it. Remember to strap around the fork/bars/stem only, *not around the frame*,
otherwise you'll pretty much cause the entire towed bike to be rigid and not
articulable (sp?)... which makes it tow really badly.

Oftentimes I find the time and effort I spend trying to engineer (and then
re-engineer) these solutions from scratch ends up faring pretty poorly against
the pre-sorted solution when all is said and done. Then again, Xtracycle
accessories are not cheap and this economy is not great... so I can for sure
dig the frugality sentiment.

Steve

--- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Lange" <steve@...> wrote:
>
> From: "watrout" <watrout@...>
> > I have a multiple day trip coming up on a rails-to-trails trail
and
> > there's going to be multiple stops to ride some single-track
along
> > the way.  I'd like to haul my MTB with my X but don't want to
spend
> > mucho $$ on the Tray Bien.
>
> Having done a fair amount of Tray Bien-less bike hauling with my X,
I guess I
> can weigh in. I've mostly done the "stuff the front wheel in one of
the
> Freeloaders" approach and while it works pretty well for most road
bikes with
> steeper geometry, it sucked pretty bad when I tried with my old
Schwinn(?)
> beach cruiser with really slack geo. The headtube was just at a
lousy angle
> and it made the bike tow really poorly (at least until I removed
the front
> wheel and just stuffed the fork in - but then it was really hard to
strap down
> securely).
>
> Which has led me to conclude that the best way to "trail a bike"
(to borrow a
> term) is by removing the front wheel and affixing some kind of
quick release
> bracket to the "No Step Step" (as Tone calls it), be it an old
front hub (as
> shown in photos floating around the interwebs and linked at least a
few times
> from this list) or else one of the various pickup truck bed
mounting blocks
> with quickrelease sold by Yakima or Thule (I think the Yakima
product is
> called the Low Rider or some such). This keeps the headtube of the
towed bike
> in the most optimal position for towing, i.e. most similar to how
it is normally.
>
> I suggest (if you haven't done this already) that you do some
experimenting
> with towing just by sticking the wheel in one of the bags and see
how you like
> it. Remember to strap around the fork/bars/stem only, *not around
the frame*,
> otherwise you'll pretty much cause the entire towed bike to be
rigid and not
> articulable (sp?)... which makes it tow really badly.
>
> Oftentimes I find the time and effort I spend trying to engineer
(and then
> re-engineer) these solutions from scratch ends up faring pretty
poorly against
> the pre-sorted solution when all is said and done. Then again,
Xtracycle
> accessories are not cheap and this economy is not great... so I can
for sure
> dig the frugality sentiment.
>
> Steve
>

Thanks for the input Steve, I'm glad to hear some personal
experiences towards this idea.  I think you're right, I'll play
around w/ stuffing the wheel in the bag thing and see how that works
for me.  If nothing else it should let me know whether that method or
a variation thereof is even worth pursuing.

On a seperate note, I'm kind of surprised I haven't heard any off-the-
shelf solutions for tubing that fits in the free-radical.  Someone
out there has to have found something that works!

Wes

I don't know the precise dimensions for any of this stuff, but here's
a list of aluminum things that can be had very cheaply from Goodwill
or Craigslist or even Freecycle:

Crutches
Walkers
department store bike trailers/baby joggers

I got a whole Instep Bike trailer for two kids for free.  I'm thinking
of something useful to do with the aluminum frame, there are several
pieces that already have 90-degree bends in them, and the lengths are
close to some of the X pieces, like the wide loaders.  As for old
crutches or walkers, they seem to have similar dimensions to the X
pieces, and many have push-button connectors already in place.

Just my way of trying to keep within the philosophy of taking
something that has been discarded and make something useful in a whole
different way.  I hit the Goodwill a couple times a week with an eye
toward re-engineering things.

As for the Tray-Bien, what you really need is a length of some stiff
trough wide enough to hold your back tire.  At the front you need
something to clamp your fork, but if you use the Tray-Bien idea, you
don't need it to provide articulation, because your bike stays upright
and rigid, like on a car roof rack.  On the cheap side, you could get
some large diameter PVC and slice it length-wise for the trough.  A
10ft piece of 2" PVC pipe is $3-$4. Currently, the XPort Universal
Bike Mount is available for about $10.  Seems to me you could find
some hardware fittings to attach those two items to your wideloader,
or maybe even fashion some pegs to slip into your original X fittings
without the wideloader.  As usual, I make no claim of safety or
capacity limits to anything I might suggest, it is simply advice, and
worth what you paid for it.

Use an old set of handlebars. The tubing diameter of 7/8 inch (at the
grips) fits perfectly in the FreeRad frame. I have made quick temporary
"footsies" this way.

I have also hauled plenty of bikes using the "front wheel in the
Freeloader bag" method. Some tips:
- secure bottom and top of wheel tightly to framework using straps or rope
- secure a strap from the stem or handlebars over and across to the
other side to stabilize top of the towed bike and prevent wobbling
- consider a bit of padding between the inboard end of the towed bike
front axle and the FreeLoader frame - otherwise you can end up with a
scratched aluminum frame (which is OK once your FR is "used/broken-in"
but not as nice when it is still shiny and new.
- ride carefully and deliberately with minimal bike wobble.
- take turns with a bit more care. Your bike should trail fine but just
get used to it first.
- take extra time with your trip because you will attract attention and
will want to allow time to deal with all the questions from on-lookers.

Have fun!

Juergen

p.s. If you have WideLoaders you could install one but leave the lower
attaching straps loose. This will form a nice spot to surround the front
wheel of the towed bike. The WL is too wide to support the wheel on two
points but can serve as a rest for the front or back of the wheel. Use
some padding or a spacer for the other side. I haven't tried this method
as often.

p.p.s. The last time I towed a bike was just before Christmas when a
friend was leaving town and he gave me a bike back. While on the way
home with this bike in tow I also stopped to pick up a (freecycled,
artificial) Christmas tree. Quite a nice, though manageable load. Carry
some good cam straps always for incidental and unexpected loads.  ;-)
(sorry no pics - it was at night)



tytanup wrote:
>
> I don't know the precise dimensions for any of this stuff, but here's
> a list of aluminum things that can be had very cheaply from Goodwill
> or Craigslist or even Freecycle:
>
> Crutches
> Walkers
> department store bike trailers/baby joggers
>
> I got a whole Instep Bike trailer for two kids for free. I'm thinking
> of something useful to do with the aluminum frame, there are several
> pieces that already have 90-degree bends in them, and the lengths are
> close to some of the X pieces, like the wide loaders. As for old
> crutches or walkers, they seem to have similar dimensions to the X
> pieces, and many have push-button connectors already in place.
>
> Just my way of trying to keep within the philosophy of taking
> something that has been discarded and make something useful in a whole
> different way. I hit the Goodwill a couple times a week with an eye
> toward re-engineering things.
>
> As for the Tray-Bien, what you really need is a length of some stiff
> trough wide enough to hold your back tire. At the front you need
> something to clamp your fork, but if you use the Tray-Bien idea, you
> don't need it to provide articulation, because your bike stays upright
> and rigid, like on a car roof rack. On the cheap side, you could get
> some large diameter PVC and slice it length-wise for the trough. A
> 10ft piece of 2" PVC pipe is $3-$4. Currently, the XPort Universal
> Bike Mount is available for about $10. Seems to me you could find
> some hardware fittings to attach those two items to your wideloader,
> or maybe even fashion some pegs to slip into your original X fittings
> without the wideloader. As usual, I make no claim of safety or
> capacity limits to anything I might suggest, it is simply advice, and
> worth what you paid for it.
>
>

is there a big difference between the surly big dummy and a surly
instigator with an x on it?

looks like the same frame just the big dummy has the x on it.

i have a free radical kit and am looking for a host frame and the
instigator looks like the best one (if i can find a deal on one).

thoughts?