Some of the flexiness remarked on may not be the bike and free-radical,
but the way the load was packed.  I've a stokemonkey with the huge
batterypack.  When I put that pack in the freeloaders, I get 'flex' and
wobble.  The pack can swing in the freeloaders.  When I cram that pack
into the pocket of the freeloaders (deluxe), then I don't get the
wobble.  One of my freeloaders has a smaller pocket than the other one.
   I get less wobble with the tighter pocket (but that means I have to
remove the entire freeloader when I need to bring the batterypack inside
for charging).

Some of my other loads, I've noticed some wobble.  I've attributed that
much more to the way I had the load packed than to the material of my
bike frame.

I used to have the freeradical attached to an aluminum frame.  It's now
attached to a Surly-instigator.  My real reason for changing was, I
wanted a frame that was a better fit for me, not because I was concerned
about aluminum vs steel.  Hearing about the strength, durability, and
repairability of steel, though, helped me decided to get a steel frame.

The current set-up is a sweet ride and looks really classy.  I get
complements all the time.  I had to put the tongue of the freeradical
below the chainstay bridge so I could squeeze in a stokemonkey (I got
the small instigator frame).  This changes the dynamics of the bike a
little, but the ride is still good.  I also made the mistake of letting
the bike shop cut about 2 inches off the top of the fork (the way I
ride, those two inches are missed).  With this set up, I don't do much
'no hands,' but I have had no problem hauling friends up the hill to home.

CL

Morgan wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> No need to convince me of the general case for steel.  My road bike is steel,
a Lemond
> Buenos Aires from before the Carbon era.  I went out of my way to find that,
an older pre-
> carbon one on Craig's list.  And my favorite mountain bike is my steel Yo
Eddy, full rigid
> (and even though I have a nice full susp aluminum as well).  And I jumped on
the
> Stumpjumper last night at the auction specifically because it was steel (I
would not have
> paid ~$200 for a 14 year old aluminum bike).
>
> However, I have seen it mentioned by people in various forums sometimes
complaining
> that steel + xtracycle is too flexy.  That is my one and only concern about
steel (actually,
> rust is a second one, since I had to have the seat tube of my Yo Eddy replaced
due to rust
> - but now I use FrameSaver).
>
> So my comment is not a question about steel *in general*, but specifically as
it applies to
> being combined with the Freeradical kit.  I don't want to spend a bunch of
time moving the
> parts over if it is going to make for an inferior loaded ride.... that's all. 
My alternative is
> just to leave the Fisher Aluminum hooked to the Freerad, and convert the
Stumpjumper to
> a singlespeed for fun.  I converted an old Fuji mtn bike to singlespeed last
year, but it
> ended up being too small for me, so I sold it...
>
> Thanks, and I hope your family health issues get sorted out!
>
> Morgan
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Garvey" <lazybee45@...> wrote:
> [response snipped]
>
>
>
> You're getting this message because you signed up to be an Xtracycle roots
radical.
>
> To Post a message, send it to:    rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> ride to believe.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--

Please note my new email address: caralinb@...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cara Lin Bridgman

P.O. Box 013          Phone: 886-4-2632-5484
Longjing Sinjhuang
Taichung County 434
Taiwan                http://megaview.com.tw/~caralin/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi,

If anybody wants me to then I could do a US version too, or maybe
an English language version that doesn't have any prices or
telephone numbers or addresses - just www.xtracycle.com.

Or is there a PDF version of the original
eleven answers that Xtracycle could put on the xtracycle.com?

But I think this answer

less than you think, starts at about 189

should be changed to

less than you think, starts at about 244

shouldn't it? 244's the USD price for the build your own base frame +
install kit.

Cheers.

Mark

Loads Better
www.thisisloadsbetter.co.uk

Morgan --

I don't think "road feel" is really a huge priority for Xtracycling,
and that's the main reason to go with steel over anything else. That
said, the small amount of additional flex you'll have won't make THAT
much difference anyway... It's not like your frame will fail or
anything -- you'll just notice perhaps a little more slop while loaded
and climbing. Frankly, climbing on the X with a passenger or 80 lbs.
of groceries is NEVER going to feel much like it does on a regular
bike! I've hauled an adult (135 lb.) passenger around for 15-20 miles
at a time, and it works fine -- but handling is much more like an old
VW bus than a sports car. As, I suppose, it should be.

Something else to consider is that you won't be able to run disc
brakes on the Stumpy. I'd at least consider swapping out the cantis
and short pull levers that probably came with it for some V-brakes and
levers. It might even be worth swapping out the fork for one that will
support a front disc (there's a cro-mo Dimension fork for $50 or so
that I use).

Anyway, you should be fine with the steel frame. It really does only
take about half an hour to install the Xtracycle, so it shouldn't be a
huge waste of time if you don't care for that particular donor frame!

Good luck,

Jeff


--- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Morgan" <mcgurme@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
> No need to convince me of the general case for steel.  My road bike
is steel, a Lemond
> Buenos Aires from before the Carbon era.  I went out of my way to
find that, an older pre-
> carbon one on Craig's list.  And my favorite mountain bike is my
steel Yo Eddy, full rigid
> (and even though I have a nice full susp aluminum as well).  And I
jumped on the
> Stumpjumper last night at the auction specifically because it was
steel (I would not have
> paid ~$200 for a 14 year old aluminum bike).
>
> However, I have seen it mentioned by people in various forums
sometimes complaining
> that steel + xtracycle is too flexy.  That is my one and only
concern about steel (actually,
> rust is a second one, since I had to have the seat tube of my Yo
Eddy replaced due to rust
> - but now I use FrameSaver).
>
> So my comment is not a question about steel *in general*, but
specifically as it applies to
> being combined with the Freeradical kit.  I don't want to spend a
bunch of time moving the
> parts over if it is going to make for an inferior loaded ride....
that's all.  My alternative is
> just to leave the Fisher Aluminum hooked to the Freerad, and convert
the Stumpjumper to
> a singlespeed for fun.  I converted an old Fuji mtn bike to
singlespeed last year, but it
> ended up being too small for me, so I sold it...
>
> Thanks, and I hope your family health issues get sorted out!
>
> Morgan
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Garvey" <lazybee45@> wrote:
> >
> [response snipped]
>

Hi Todd,
Thanks for the response.  Yes, the Stumpjumper I got is also shocking metallic
magenta... I
love it.  But of course, my Yo Eddy is purple with pink polka dots
(http://www.flickr.com/
photos/mcgurme/1440079669/in/pool-527719@N23/)

Regarding the electric assist, it is mainly to encourage her to use the bike
more to replace car
trips.  She has twin girls to haul around, so she will usually have at least
some load.  And she
lives a few miles out of town, with a couple moderate hills to get to town.  She
has done a lot
of biking in the past, but I think the bike is far more likely to be used with
an assist, given the
load and the distance.  So I think the BionX would be adequate, though perhaps a
bit
underpowered when she has grocery loads.  If you think there will be a
possibility of
acquiring the Stokemonkey again soon, perhaps I should have another good look at
that.



--- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, "Todd Fahrner" <fahrner@...> wrote:
[response snipped]

Its now also hosted here.

http://www.naivezebra.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/propaganda2.pdf

:O)

Hi Tone (& Everyone),

Thanks for all the useful insights on the steel vs aluminum.  I can
say that with opinions all over the map, I am no closer to an answer!

I think I will just have to try it out, though given that things are
crazy here with the addition of new family members, I may not have
time to try that soon.  Plus, the idea of the stumpy as a singlespeed
has its own appeal.  However, I don't have time for that project,
either... I've got three wheel builds to do before then, one for a
new super-heavy duty wheel for my Xtracycle, since the original rim
cracked.

Tone, have you had a bike frame welder look at the Xtracycle?  They
would be much more used to welding with thin materials than a typical
welding shop.  A lot of steel downtubes are super thin and frame
welders know how to use the TIG welder to build up material.

Morgan G

On the subject of wheels...

I have a few recommendations related to wheels for the Xtra, just in
case this is useful to anyone:

1. Use DT Alpine III spokes (triple butted spokes meant for Tandems +
Touring).  I built my rear wheel with these, and the spokes have
survived several incredible incidents.  One was when the metal fender
stays somehow came loose and got wrapped up in my spokes, while I was
accelerating under full human AND electric power at about 10mph.
Ouch.  Instant stop.  The fender stay steel was all twisted and the
fender trashed.  The spokes? Just fine.  (Actually, I think this
incident may have slightly bent the drop outs on the Xtracycle frame
too!).  Also, I have carried 200lb loads on a number of occasions,
and the Currie drive bolts straight to the spokes.  My last spokes
tended to break.  Not these.

2. Do not use low-end Mavic rims.  In the incident described above
(or maybe before, I don't know for sure), the tension on the spokes
caused the rim to crack by several spoke eyelets.  The spokes are
definitely stronger than the rim.  I am going to rebuild the wheel
with a Sun Mammoth rim.  Unfortunately I can only do 32 hole since my
Currie electric system is designed for 32 spokes, and I don't think I
could find a 36 hole version at this point.  Anyway, I will report
back how that holds up.  I got the rim the other day and it seems
quite stout.  The other option I considered was the Velocity
Cliffhanger, but the Sun Mammoth is on sale for $20 at Nashbar, can't
beat that price.

3. Shimano XT hubs seem pretty bomber... I have used the present hub
for nearly daily commuting both pre and post Xtracycle, and it has
held up very well for 5 years now.

Morgan G

I keep thinking about Anne's problem of how to haul 14 28-foot tipi
poles on her xtracycle...

Maybe there's an idea here:
<http://www.urbanvelo.org/issue3/urbanvelo3_p70-71.html>

Or here (especially the 19th picture down):
<http://aistigave.hit.bg/Logistics/>

Or, more practically, here:
<http://www.bikesatwork.com/>
Which shows someone hauling a 24-foot extension ladder.

CL

issumatuq@... wrote:
> I think I have found something I need to haul that the Xtracycle can't
> manage - unless someone can figure this one out. I have 14 28' tipi
> poles and of course the 70 pound covers. Since I have enough trouble
> with car and the poles it's probably not working with the Xtracycle. So


--

Please note my new email address: caralinb@...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cara Lin Bridgman

P.O. Box 013          Phone: 886-4-2632-5484
Longjing Sinjhuang
Taichung County 434
Taiwan                http://megaview.com.tw/~caralin/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi,

Here's my latest effort, which isn't UK-specific this time.

http://www.detnot.com/loadsbetter/php/myCMS/web/loadsbetter/pdf/propaga
ndatoo.pdf

I hope it helps.

Cheers.

Mark
Loads Better

For folks interested in pulling trailers in addition to using their X, here's a
photo of our X
getting ready to be on parade at the Chain Reaction Bike Parade in Goshen, IN
yesterday.
The Chain Reaction Bicycle Project <http://www.crpb.org> is a non-profit
organization in
Goshen, Indiana dedicated to promoting the use of bicycles and to offering
meaningful,
fair-wage work for persons with low income.

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsradicals/photos/view/4575?b=3

The X has a few year old Trek branded child trailer that is, I believe,
manufactured by
Chariot Carriers. Here's info on the hitch that makes it easy to attach to the X
on the left
side of the rear axle.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=piAUAAAAEBAJ&dq=6929274

You can't use a wide loader on this side and have the trailer attached at the
same time.
However, you can use a wide loader without the trailer attached while leaving
the hitch
mount in place.

Here's info on Chariot:

http://www.chariotcarriers.com/

Woops! The link to Chain Reaction Bicycle Project is

http://www.crbp.org/

nothing like a little typo to send you looking for bag pipe bands!

Hi folks,

Today I picked up what I believe is the first Xtracycle in Rochester,
NY. Photos and video at:

http://RocBike.com

I'm in love!

All the best,

Jason

--
Jason Crane
Founder, RocBike.com
"Nothing To Lose But Our Chains!"

WEB: <http:RocBike.com>
E-MAIL: jason@...

"Driving a car versus
riding a bike is on par
with watching television
rather than living your own life."
-- Bruce MacAlister

MY OTHER SITES:
http://thejazzsession.com
http://jasoncrane.org
http://signwall.com
http://flandersfamily.org

Ha! Did you recognize the Japanese Children's Day carp and pole strung from our
bikes
and trailers?  :-)

-Phil

--- In rootsradicals@yahoogroups.com, Ryano <ryantokyo@...> wrote:
>
> I also pull our chariot trailer with my X in Tokyo sometimes and can vouch
> that it is just great for people of any income level - high and low  ;-)
>
>
>
> On 07/10/2007, Phil Good-Elliott <poppamando@...> wrote:
> >
> >   For folks interested in pulling trailers in addition to using their X,
> > here's a photo of our X
> > getting ready to be on parade at the Chain Reaction Bike Parade in Goshen,
> > IN yesterday.
> > The Chain Reaction Bicycle Project <http://www.crpb.org> is a non-profit
> > organization in
> > Goshen, Indiana dedicated to promoting the use of bicycles and to offering
> > meaningful,
> > fair-wage work for persons with low income.
> >
> > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/rootsradicals/photos/view/4575?b=3
> >
> > The X has a few year old Trek branded child trailer that is, I believe,
> > manufactured by
> > Chariot Carriers. Here's info on the hitch that makes it easy to attach to
> > the X on the left
> > side of the rear axle.
> >
> > http://www.google.com/patents?id=piAUAAAAEBAJ&dq=6929274
> >
> > You can't use a wide loader on this side and have the trailer attached at
> > the same time.
> > However, you can use a wide loader without the trailer attached while
> > leaving the hitch
> > mount in place.
> >
> > Here's info on Chariot:
> >
> > http://www.chariotcarriers.com/
> >
> >
> >
>

Venison…..yum!

Bruce Alan Wilson

"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man.  Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish.  Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

Yep, that's loads better ;-) [1]

Rgds
Pete.B
1. Yes , I know, I *should* be shot

---- loadsbetter <pedal@...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Here's my latest effort, which isn't UK-specific this time.
>
> http://www.detnot.com/loadsbetter/php/myCMS/web/loadsbetter/pdf/propaga
> ndatoo.pdf
>
> I hope it helps.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Mark
> Loads Better
>

Yep, it's $110 AUD here across the Tasman...
And they're taking about changing the law to deduct license points as well (if
you have one that is).

Rgds
Pete.B

256. Bicycle helmets
(1) The rider of a bicycle must wear an approved bicycle helmet securely fitted
and fastened on the rider’s head.
Penalty: 1 penalty unit.
Note Approved bicycle helmet is defined in the dictionary.
(2) Subrule (1) does not apply to a rider who—
(a) is exempt from wearing a bicycle helmet under subrule (5); and
(b) is carrying written evidence of that exemption; and
(c) produces that evidence to a police officer or authorised person when
asked to do so.
Note Authorised person and police officer are defined in the dictionary.
(3) The rider of a bicycle must not carry a passenger on the bicycle unless—
(a) the passenger is wearing an approved bicycle helmet securely fitted
and fastened on the passenger’s head; or
(b) the passenger—
(i) is exempt from wearing a bicycle helmet under subrule (5); and
(ii) is carrying written evidence of that exemption; and
(iii) produces that evidence to a police officer or authorised person
when asked to do so.
Penalty: 1 penalty unit.
Note Authorised person and police officer are defined in the dictionary.
(4) Subrule (3) does not apply to the rider of a three or four-wheeled bicycle
who
is carrying a paying passenger.
(5) The Corporation may exempt, in writing, the rider of, or passenger on, a
bicycle from subrules (1) or (3).


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The fees are determined by multiplying the number of fee units contained in the
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nearest dollar.

---- murray <murrayneill@...> wrote:
> Oh but spandex FEEEELS so nice ;-)  (just kidding, I right in civilian
> clothes too).
>
> At least you have the choice of wearing a helmet or not. It's law in New
> Zealand where I am. Its a thirty dollar fine (about the cost of a new
> helmet) if you get caught and they don't tend to give warnings anymore.
> I am of the opinion that IF they were going to make any one peice of saftey
> gear complusory it should have been a high-visability vests. At least it
> prevents the accident from happening in the first place, rather than trying
> to minimise the damge when it does. Just think how many acccidents of near
> accidents you've experienced and how many times you've heard "I just didn't
> see them".
>
> On 10/8/07, Mark Garvey <lazybee45@...> wrote:
> >
> >   Well, I was tinkering again...  Did a little bit of a change on my X
> > found a set of rubber block pedals in the garage that are the correct size
> > for the cranks.  then on the same bike, found a set of "sit up and beg" bars
> > which I installed. this gives me a much more upright position so that While
> > I am not as FAST, I am more comfortable.  I suppose I was inspired by the
> > web sites showing bicycles in Holland.  I noticed something that really is
> > interesting.  Look at photos of bike riders on the street.  You can TELL if
> > they are USA or not by looking usually.  I was working at a Farmers Market
> > again yesterday (the last big one of the season!)  and there were dozens of
> > people who rode bikes to the event.  EVERY DAMNED ONE WAS WEARING SPANDEX!
> > Now WAIT a minute!  (OK, one couple on an ancient and battered tandem
> > wasn't!  They still had helmets though!)  You need to wear orthopedic pants
> > and skin tight shirt to visit the Farmers Market and pick up some
> > Vegetables???  What the HELL!
> >
> > I looked through one web site that showed a street corner in AMsterdam.  A
> > LOT of photos and not ONE skid lid!  Lots of high heels, jeans and
> > miniskirts....but no spandex!  As one Dutch rider said, "Well, maybe you
> > people fall off more in the USA"
> >
> > I am not saying that I WON'T wear a helmet, but  I am becoming less and
> > less favorably inclined!
> >
> > mark
> >
> > --
> > Putting the fun in dysfunctional for over 50 years!
> >
> >
> > Mark  Garvey
> > Cedar Rapids, Iowa free state!
> >
> > Check out the web site at:
> > http://www.vine-ave.com
> >
> > contact us to have Papa Balloon appear at your next program!  Details at
> > www.vine-ave.com
> >
> > I am a bicycling lifestylist!
> >
> >

In Taiwan, they passed a helmet rule for motorbikes (none of them with
over 250 cc engines).  The fine was 2-5 times the cost of a helmet.
This law is only enforced in the larger cities.

Now, there's talk in Taipei of making a helmet rule for bicycles.
Whatever we do, we shouldn't do anything to discourage cycling.  This
bike-helmet law is likely to do that.  Most people won't cycle in Taipei
already because of the smog (daily choice: healthy lungs vs healthy
everything else...).

I've read many of the online helmet-no-helmet papers too.  It seems that
most of the no-helmet papers come out of the same lab.  The overwhelming
consensus is that the single one thing to improve biking safety is to
increase the numbers of bikes on the street.  I consider the ubiquity of
motorbikes in Taiwan the main reason why Taiwan's streets are (and feel)
safer than the streets in Louisville, KY.  Although the speed,
differential helps a lot, too (lots less in Taiwan).

As for helmets, their safety and ability to minimize damage is debatable
when its bike-car or bike-motorbike.  Bike-telephone pole or bike-'I hit
the front brakes too hard and did a header over the handlebars'--Here's
where the helmet should have an effect.  A few weeks ago, BB, my
father-in-law (age 75) took a friend along on his daily dawn 24-k ride.
   The friend was on a brand new bike.  Starting out, BB asked "where's
your helmet?"  Friend said "I don't need a helmet."  BB said "Let's buy
one here."  Later that morning, the nurses were really impressed that
BB's friend had road rash on all sides of his body.  The helmet was
totaled on one side (the bike was fine).  Maybe the helmet did make the
friend careless.  Most probable causes were: quite a few years not on a
bike and brand new hydraulic disk brakes.  Maybe those folks in Europe
are right, Americans and Taiwanese just fall off their bikes more...

With all that, I'd rather have a coolie hat than a helmet.  When I'm
drag racing downhill with the bikes and the buses, I'll wear my helmet.
   At all other times, I'm less and less inclined to.

CL