revelation-list : Messages : 729-764 of 1224

#730 From: "Timothy P. Jenney" <drjenney@...>
Date: Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:36 am
Subject: Re: Re 16.15 a gloss? drjenney@...
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From: polycarp66@...
Reply-To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:02:28 EDT
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re 16.15 a gloss?

In a message dated 4/18/2004 5:20:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drjenney@... writes:

Nevertheless, the harvest (14:14ff) will soon be over, so everyone must be ready for the Messiah’s return (16:15). The harvest festival [Sukkoth] is about to begin!

_________________

The harvest is already past. This is the destruction of Jerusalem. The extent of the flow of the blood is ~189 miles which, taken from the epicenter of Jerusalem, would cover the entire land. Similarly, the measurements of the New Jerusalem would cover the Roman Empire and thus represent the conquering of the world-system by the Christian faith.

Gfsomsel
-------

It’s certainly a possibility. There are two harvests in 14 though, not one. I think the grape harvest symbolizes Christian martyrs [or at least includes them]. Note that the blood that fills the seven vials is that of prophets AND saints (16:5f). When the number of these martyrs is complete, the End will come (Rev. 6:9-11).

I should add that my theory is that Revelation’s liturgical passages are an eschatologically heightened Sukkoth [Tabernacles] celebration. I argued this in my 1993 U Mich dissertation, The Harvest of the Earth.

Timothy P. Jenney

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#731 From: polycarp66@...
Date: Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:56 pm
Subject: Re: Re 16.15 a gloss? gfsomsel
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In a message dated 4/18/2004 8:37:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drjenney@... writes:

It’s certainly a possibility. There are two harvests in 14 though, not one. I think the grape harvest symbolizes Christian martyrs [or at least includes them]. Note that the blood that fills the seven vials is that of prophets AND saints (16:5f). When the number of these martyrs is complete, the End will come (Rev. 6:9-11).

I should add that my theory is that Revelation’s liturgical passages are an eschatologically heightened Sukkoth [Tabernacles] celebration. I argued this in my 1993 U Mich dissertation, The Harvest of the Earth.

______________

I think it would be going beyond the evidence to say that the seven vials contain the blood of the martyrs. While the sea and the fresh water sources are said to turn to blood, it is nowhere stated that the vials contained blood but rather that they are the vials of the Wrath of God. Also, it should be noted that the pouring of the vials on other portions of the cosmos does not produce blood. That the grape harvest symbolizes the Christian martyrs is, in my opinion, precisely wrong since they are thrown into the wine-press of the Wrath of God. This is rather God's wrath against those who rejected the Son.

I'm not ready to say that ALL the liturgical passages refer to Sukkoth. It is relatively certain, however, that this is in view with regard to the 144,000 sealed from the twelve tribes in chapter 7 since the great multitude is there pictured as having palm branches in their hands. Also, in chapter 14, when the 144,000 again appear on the heavenly Mount Zion they themselves have palm branches and are specifically designated as first fruits.

gfsomsel

#732 From: Ian Paul <editor@...>
Date: Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:46 am
Subject: Re: Re 16.15 a gloss? revdrianpaul
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On Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 05:01 PM, polycarp66@... wrote:

> Our author was not loathe to specify that there were seven lampstands
> representing seven churches and seven spirits of God.� He also
> enumerated seven seals, four angels holding back the winds, seven
> trumpets, seven bowls of wrath and three woes.� Nowhere does he
> specify that there are seven makarisms.� Even had he thus specified,
> the question would remain "Why is this placed here?"�though, in such a
> case its authenticity would not then be in question.
>
But you only have to look at the amazing complex of words occurring
four, seven, ten, 14 and 28 times (Richard Bauckham gives a start in
Climax of Prophecy) to see that there are structures in the book which
are not made explicit.

If you are suggesting that we can effectively discard part of the text
unless we see a reason for it being there--I think I would want to take
issue with your methodology!

Ian Paul
_________________
Revd Dr Ian Paul
Director of Partnership Development, St John's College, Bramcote, Nottm
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Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd  Ridley Hall Road  Cambridge  CB3
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#733 From: polycarp66@...
Date: Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:26 am
Subject: Re: Re 16.15 a gloss? gfsomsel
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In a message dated 4/19/2004 4:51:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, editor@... writes:

But you only have to look at the amazing complex of words occurring
four, seven, ten, 14 and 28 times (Richard Bauckham gives a start in
Climax of Prophecy) to see that there are structures in the book which
are not made explicit.

If you are suggesting that we can effectively discard part of the text
unless we see a reason for it being there--I think I would want to take
issue with your methodology!

_________

Do you mean to say that if you were to find (hypothetically speaking, of course) a passage with a recipe for Trout Munieres in the middle, you would have any hesitation in saying it wasn't original? I find something amiss with that methodology.

gfsomsel

#734 From: Ian Paul <editor@...>
Date: Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:50 pm
Subject: Re: Re 16.15 a gloss? revdrianpaul
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On Monday, April 19, 2004, at 01:26 PM, polycarp66@... wrote:

> Do you mean to say that if you�were to find�(hypothetically speaking,
> of course) a passage with a recipe for Trout Munieres in the middle,
> you would have any hesitation in saying it wasn't original?� I find
> something amiss with that methodology.
>
What I would do is ask:

1. whether it is genuine data in the text, or has been constructed by
unjustifiably selective reading
2. whether this was a possible significance of the text for the author
3. whether an informed first reader might have been able to discern
this (ie so that this feature of the text was a genuine act of
communication, which presumably all texts are intended to be)
4. whether this could fit with the explicit (ie expressed at the level
of semantic content) theology of the text.

All four are satisfied in the observation of word frequencies (see my
Grove booklet on the subject http://www.grovebooks.co.uk) whereas the
supposed recipe for Trout Munieres would, I think, fall at every step.
(As an alternative example, the Bible Code stuff fails at least at
steps 1, 3 and 4.)

There is also the question of burden of proof, that is, if we think
that text has been added, we would need to support this with a good
reason why a later scribe would see the need for this. (As an example,
there are two good reasons for justifying the alternative reading of
616 in Rev 13.18 which explains why it might have arisen, and
additionally makes sense of the primary reading 666). The difficulty in
16.15 is constructing a plausible meaning for the text *without* the
interpolation (the meaning for the author) and constructing a plausible
meaning for the text *with* the interpolation (the meaning for the
later scribe/editor) and being able to tell the difference and how we
might attribute these two meanings to the two people concerned the
right way around (since if they are attributed the other way around,
then the scribe should have taken text out not added it in).

What I would avoid is:
1. assuming that if something does not fit in with my reading, then it
could not have fitted with the author's (possibly incoherent) intention
2. offering slightly facile illustrations as a counter to a serious
comment
3. going under an anonymous signature in my emails

regards

Ian Paul
_________________
Revd Dr Ian Paul
Director of Partnership Development, St John's College, Bramcote, Nottm
NG9 3DS
        w  0115 925 1114 x 254        h  01202 745963     m  07974 351502
Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd  Ridley Hall Road  Cambridge  CB3
9HU
         01223 464748     Fax 01223 464849
http://www.grovebooks.co.uk

#735 From: "Loren L. Johns" <llj215@...>
Date: Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:15 pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 233 llj215
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Although I am not prepared to argue that the seven vials are the blood of the martyrs, I don't think one can conclude that they cannot be on the basis that they represent the wrath of God.

God's wrath is a biblical concept that cannot be separated from the limited dualism of apocalyptic literature--that is, that God is in control of everything. And 1 Maccabees 1:64 in a summary statement says that "Very great wrath came upon Israel." This is admittedly impersonal, but it probably refers to the wrath of God, not in an intentionally judging sense, but in the sense that this suffering represents in some mysterious way the wrath of God. Why did this wrath come upon Israel? Because they were suffering severe persecution due to their righteous resistance to the forcible Hellenizing of Antiochus IV.

Loren Johns
Associated Mennonite Biblical Seminary

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#736 From: "Georg S. Adamsen" <georg@...>
Date: Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:00 pm
Subject: Admin note: Plese, do sign your posts ... georg@...
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Dear list members

Please, sign your posts with full name, position and institution, including city, state and country. If you have no institutional affiliation, please, sign with full name, city, state and country.

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---

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The Lutheran School of Theology in Arhus, Denmark

#737 From: "Jon Newton" <jon@...>
Date: Fri Apr 23, 2004 6:38 am
Subject: revelation as a love story? jon@...
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Has anyone in this group seen or heard of an article or book investigating reading Revelation as a love story? After all, it finishes with a marriage and has a lot to say about the love between Jesus and his people. I wonder whether love stories were defined as a genre in that day. I certainly know they existed, both in the Greco-Roman world (e.g. Daphnis and Chloe) and in the Jewish (e.g. Ruth, Song of Songs).

Jon Newton

Principal

Lighthouse Training Institute

Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

#738 From: "COATE (MORIAH PLASTICS)" <jasonnola@...>
Date: Fri Apr 23, 2004 7:37 am
Subject: RE: revelation as a love story? jasonnola@...
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The Book is called "The Revelation of Jesus Christ". Any realistic Christian interpretation would understand that Jesus was and was sent because God loved the world. It is a love story on a micro and macro level a book interpreting it as falling within the genre of a love story, I am not so sure. It does seem to have elements of a traditional love story: Hero, antiohero, Virgin bride etc.?

Jason Coates

Johannesburg, S. Africa

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Newton [mailto:jon@...]
Sent: 23 April 2004 08:38 AM
To: Revelation-List@Yahoogroups.Com
Subject: [revelation-list] revelation as a love story?

Has anyone in this group seen or heard of an article or book investigating reading Revelation as a love story? After all, it finishes with a marriage and has a lot to say about the love between Jesus and his people. I wonder whether love stories were defined as a genre in that day. I certainly know they existed, both in the Greco-Roman world (e.g. Daphnis and Chloe) and in the Jewish (e.g. Ruth, Song of Songs).

Jon Newton

Principal

Lighthouse Training Institute

Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

#739 From: "Don K" <dkpret@...>
Date: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:28 pm
Subject: Re: revelation as a love story? dkpret@...
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Certainly a love story is present. However, it also seems to me that there is a "divorce story" present as God was divorcing Old Covenant Israel (specifically Judah), for her adulterous ways. I believe the marriage of chapter 19 has to seen in the context of the Old Covenant promises that God would remarry Israel, specifically the 10 tribes. However, to do this, he would ultimately divorce Judah (the nationalistic scepter would pass when Shiloh took the scepter, Genesis 49:1).

Jehovah had divorced the 10 northern tribes (Hosea) but promised to remarry them (although not nationalistically, that history was terminated by the Assyrians), under the Messiah.

Although Judah was as treacherous as her northern sister, Jehovah could not divorce her because of the promises of Messiah. When Shiloh came however, He could divorce her for her treachery (take the kingdom from her and give it to another nation, Matthew 21:43), because He had now fulfilled His promises.

So, I would see Revelation as being about God's faithfulness to "Israel" by bringing "the lion of the Tribe of Judah (Rev. 5:5). This meant that the Covenant promises were now fulfilled. He could remarry "Israel" but not in a nationalistic, ethnic, sense, because Israel had fallen and would never rise again (Hosea 1:5; Amos 5:1-5). However, in her Messiah, she was restored/remarried.

Revelation is thus the story of God's undying love and His faithfulness to His promises, both of Covenant Wrath and Covenant Blessings.

Don K. Preston

Who Is This Babylon?

Ardmore, Ok.

----- Original Message -----

From: Jon Newton

To: Revelation-List@Yahoogroups.Com

Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 1:38 AM

Subject: [revelation-list] revelation as a love story?

Has anyone in this group seen or heard of an article or book investigating reading Revelation as a love story? After all, it finishes with a marriage and has a lot to say about the love between Jesus and his people. I wonder whether love stories were defined as a genre in that day. I certainly know they existed, both in the Greco-Roman world (e.g. Daphnis and Chloe) and in the Jewish (e.g. Ruth, Song of Songs).

Jon Newton

Principal

Lighthouse Training Institute

Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

#740 From: "Timothy P. Jenney" <drjenney@...>
Date: Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:21 pm
Subject: Re: revelation as a love story? drjenney@...
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Certainly a love story is present.

Marriages, especially ones where the groom “catches away his bride” were a tradition at the autumnal harvest festival (Sukkoth, Tabernacles) (Judg. 21:19-23). One source I read (I believe it was Widengren, Israelite-Jewish Religion, 270-272) stated that the original festival Scripture readings included the Song of Songs, but was later changed to Ruth. Other changes were made in the festival as well, for apparently the rabbis felt there was too much drinking of wine to make a good foundation for selecting a marriage partner (M. Taan. 4:8 cf. M. Qidd. 9b; 12b; Yad. Ishut 3:21; Sh. Ar., EH. 26:4; 33:1).

Remember too that Yahweh’s marriage to Israel is the precursor to the Church as the bride of the Messiah.

Timothy P. Jenney
Ph. D. U Mich, 1993
Winter Haven, FL

http://www.ucc.ac.uk/theology/html/TSSteveMoyise.html

#741 From: "Steve Moyise" <S.Moyise@...>
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:47 pm
Subject: Articles available S.Moyise@...
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Dear All,

If anyone is interested, the following 2 articles (pdf) have been posted on my website: www.ucc.ac.uk/theology/html/moyiserevelation.htm

"The Psalms in the Book of Revelation", out this week in: The Psalms in the NT (eds Moyise & Menken, T & T Clark, 2004)

"The Language of the Psalms in the Book of Revelation" Neotestamentica, 2004

Any comments or feedback, please contact me off list at s.moyise@...

Steve Moyise

__________________________________________________________
Dr Steve Moyise, University College, College Lane, Chichester, PO19 6PE

#744 From: "Georg S. Adamsen" <georg@...>
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:14 pm
Subject: Admin note: Let's socialize� georg@...
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Whatever this posting was, it wasn't for the list. Please, do not comment on such posts. Ignore them and delete them.

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#747 From: "Dr. Georg S. Adamsen" <gsa@...>
Date: Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:06 pm
Subject: Spurious postings gsaatmenighe...
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Dear list,

I just learned that the list has distributed a number of spurious
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gjclarke's postings will be moderated, in order to stop these
spurious postings. I know no other way to stop this problem.

I apologise for any inconveniences.

Feel free to contact me directly *off the list* if you notice any
irregularities. I didn't notice this one because my ISP runs a anti-
spam-program.

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#748 From: "Dr. Georg S. Adamsen" <gsa@...>
Date: Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:11 pm
Subject: Admin note: No attachments gsaatmenighe...
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#749 From: "Ian R. Brown" <irbrown@...>
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 6:04 am
Subject: Library Resources in the Toronto Area irbrown@...
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Dear List Members,
I may be making a trip to the Toronto area this summer, and I am wondering
if any libraries there have large collections of books related to
Revelation.  I am currently living in Alaska where such resources are
limited to those I can purchase or those I can borrow through interlibrary
loan.  It would be nice to visit a library where I can examine numerous
books at once for my dissertation research.

Thanks,
Ian R. Brown
Ph.D. Candidate
Andrews University


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#750 From: "Jon Paulien" <jonp@...>
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 12:29 pm
Subject: RE: Library Resources in the Toronto Area jonp@...
Send Email

I don't know. I know Andrews has the largest collection in North America and
Princeton and Harvard are in the top five. I don't have any sense of what
there is in Toronto.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Ian R. Brown [mailto:irbrown@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 2:04 AM
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [revelation-list] Library Resources in the Toronto Area

Dear List Members,
I may be making a trip to the Toronto area this summer, and I am wondering
if any libraries there have large collections of books related to
Revelation.  I am currently living in Alaska where such resources are
limited to those I can purchase or those I can borrow through interlibrary
loan.  It would be nice to visit a library where I can examine numerous
books at once for my dissertation research.

Thanks,
Ian R. Brown
Ph.D. Candidate
Andrews University

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#751 From: "Jon Paulien" <jonp@...>
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 1:21 pm
Subject: RE: Library Resources in the Toronto Area jonp@...
Send Email

Sorry for my odd-sounding response below. Ian is my student and I thought he
was addressing me alone. Hope the Toronto dwellers will weigh in on this one
for his sake.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Paulien [mailto:jonp@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 8:30 AM
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Library Resources in the Toronto Area

I don't know. I know Andrews has the largest collection in North America and
Princeton and Harvard are in the top five. I don't have any sense of what
there is in Toronto.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Ian R. Brown [mailto:irbrown@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 2:04 AM
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [revelation-list] Library Resources in the Toronto Area

Dear List Members,
I may be making a trip to the Toronto area this summer, and I am wondering
if any libraries there have large collections of books related to
Revelation.  I am currently living in Alaska where such resources are
limited to those I can purchase or those I can borrow through interlibrary
loan.  It would be nice to visit a library where I can examine numerous
books at once for my dissertation research.

Thanks,
Ian R. Brown
Ph.D. Candidate
Andrews University

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yahoo! Groups Links

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#752 From: Joseph Weaks <j.weaks@...>
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 3:00 pm
Subject: Re: Library Resources in the Toronto Area j.weaks@...
Send Email

> From: Jon Paulien [mailto:jonp@...]
> I don't know. I know Andrews has the largest collection in North
> America and
> Princeton and Harvard are in the top five. I don't have any sense of
> what
> there is in Toronto.

Jon,
I'm curious what's the nature of your university's collection that
makes it superior with regards to "Revelation". What types of material
do you speak of?
Cheers,
Joe

#753 From: "Charles Larkin, 42130" <charles.larkin@...>
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 6:04 pm
Subject: Re: Library Resources in the Toronto Area charles.larkin@...
Send Email

Dear Ian:

This is just a hunch, for whatever it's worth, but you
might want to visit the Pontifical Institute for Medieval
Studies at the University of Toronto.

Regards,
Chip Larkin


On Tue, 18 May 2004 22:04:17 -0800
   "Ian R. Brown" <irbrown@...> wrote:
>Dear List Members,
>I may be making a trip to the Toronto area this summer,
>and I am wondering
>if any libraries there have large collections of books
>related to
>Revelation.  I am currently living in Alaska where such
>resources are
>limited to those I can purchase or those I can borrow
>through interlibrary
>loan.  It would be nice to visit a library where I can
>examine numerous
>books at once for my dissertation research.
>
>Thanks,
>Ian R. Brown
>Ph.D. Candidate
>Andrews University
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

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#754 From: "Jon Paulien" <jonp@...>
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 8:05 pm
Subject: RE: Library Resources in the Toronto Area jonp@...
Send Email

I was hoping my comment would just slip quietly into the night, but here
goes in answer to your question, Joe.

Some 50 plus years ago the library at Andrews University made the commitment
to buy every book on Revelation (the Apocalypse of John) that comes out in
English, German and French (at least), including many if not most
dissertations. A commitment was also made to scour used bookstores, etc., to
pick up older titles as available.

Recently, in anticipation of the kinds of things accrediting people ask, our
librarian sent out asking several major scholarly libraries how many books
they held in various fields for comparison. In the call number BS 2825,
which encompasses commentaries and other studies on Revelation, Andrews had
the largest quantity of books on Revelation in the test group, which
included Princeton and Harvard, which are presumably right near the top.
Given the purchasing history, I think it is likely that Andrews has the
largest collection (quantitatively). Quality is a separate issue and I'm not
sure how one would make that judgment.

So when you are looking for a rare book on Revelation, Andrews might be a
good place to check.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Weaks [mailto:j.weaks@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 11:00 AM
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Library Resources in the Toronto Area

> From: Jon Paulien [mailto:jonp@...]
> I don't know. I know Andrews has the largest collection in North
> America and
> Princeton and Harvard are in the top five. I don't have any sense of
> what
> there is in Toronto.

Jon,
I'm curious what's the nature of your university's collection that
makes it superior with regards to "Revelation". What types of material
do you speak of?
Cheers,
Joe




Yahoo! Groups Links

#755 From: Joseph Weaks <j.weaks@...>
Date: Wed May 19, 2004 10:00 pm
Subject: Re: Library Resources in the Toronto Area j.weaks@...
Send Email

On May 19, 2004, at 3:05 PM, Jon Paulien wrote:
> Some 50 plus years ago the library at Andrews University made the
> commitment
> to buy every book on Revelation (the Apocalypse of John) that comes
> out in
> English, German and French (at least), including many if not most
> dissertations. A commitment was also made to scour used bookstores,
> etc., to
> pick up older titles as available.
> ...So when you are looking for a rare book on Revelation, Andrews
> might be a
> good place to check.

Actually, Jon, this is good stuff to know. Thanks for be willing to
follow through with an answer. I would think facsimiles of manuscripts
containing portions the text of John's Apocalypse would be high on the
list if one was putting together a collection that specialize in the
book.

Cheers,
Joe Weaks

#756 From: Juan Stam <jstam@...>
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 2:35 am
Subject: Re: Library Resources in the Toronto Area juanstam2001
Send Email

Greetings from Costa Rica!

I would also recommend considering the literature in Spanish, which is very
rich on Revelation: I will be happy to send names and titles on request.
Volumes I and II of my own commentary are selling briskly (Vol I now sold
out), and I am working on volumes III and IV, which will bring to total work
to about 1500 pp.

Especially with the Hispanic immigration to the US and other countries, this
would seem important

Juan Stam, Costa Rica



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Paulien" <jonp@...>
To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 2:05 PM
Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Library Resources in the Toronto Area


> I was hoping my comment would just slip quietly into the night, but here
> goes in answer to your question, Joe.
>
> Some 50 plus years ago the library at Andrews University made the
commitment
> to buy every book on Revelation (the Apocalypse of John) that comes out in
> English, German and French (at least), including many if not most
> dissertations. A commitment was also made to scour used bookstores, etc.,
to
> pick up older titles as available.
>
> Recently, in anticipation of the kinds of things accrediting people ask,
our
> librarian sent out asking several major scholarly libraries how many books
> they held in various fields for comparison. In the call number BS 2825,
> which encompasses commentaries and other studies on Revelation, Andrews
had
> the largest quantity of books on Revelation in the test group, which
> included Princeton and Harvard, which are presumably right near the top.
> Given the purchasing history, I think it is likely that Andrews has the
> largest collection (quantitatively). Quality is a separate issue and I'm
not
> sure how one would make that judgment.
>
> So when you are looking for a rare book on Revelation, Andrews might be a
> good place to check.
>
> Jon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Weaks [mailto:j.weaks@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 11:00 AM
> To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Library Resources in the Toronto Area
>
> > From: Jon Paulien [mailto:jonp@...]
> > I don't know. I know Andrews has the largest collection in North
> > America and
> > Princeton and Harvard are in the top five. I don't have any sense of
> > what
> > there is in Toronto.
>
> Jon,
> I'm curious what's the nature of your university's collection that
> makes it superior with regards to "Revelation". What types of material
> do you speak of?
> Cheers,
> Joe
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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#757 From: "Jon Paulien" <jonp@...>
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 3:55 pm
Subject: RE: Library Resources in the Toronto Area jonp@...
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We have about 500 facsimiles of NT MSS and Larry Richards is buying some
more in England as I write. I'm sure Rev is well represented among them.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Weaks [mailto:j.weaks@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 6:01 PM
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Library Resources in the Toronto Area

On May 19, 2004, at 3:05 PM, Jon Paulien wrote:
> Some 50 plus years ago the library at Andrews University made the
> commitment
> to buy every book on Revelation (the Apocalypse of John) that comes
> out in
> English, German and French (at least), including many if not most
> dissertations. A commitment was also made to scour used bookstores,
> etc., to
> pick up older titles as available.
> ...So when you are looking for a rare book on Revelation, Andrews
> might be a
> good place to check.

Actually, Jon, this is good stuff to know. Thanks for be willing to
follow through with an answer. I would think facsimiles of manuscripts
containing portions the text of John's Apocalypse would be high on the
list if one was putting together a collection that specialize in the
book.

Cheers,
Joe Weaks

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#758 From: "Jon Paulien" <jonp@...>
Date: Thu May 20, 2004 3:59 pm
Subject: RE: Library Resources in the Toronto Area jonp@...
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Juan,

Why don't you attach the bibliography to this list so everyone can benefit
from your work? Andrews has many works in Spanish, but I don't think our
library has tried to be comprehensive.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: juanstam@... [mailto:juanstam@...] On Behalf Of Juan
Stam
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 10:36 PM
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Library Resources in the Toronto Area



Greetings from Costa Rica!

I would also recommend considering the literature in Spanish, which is very
rich on Revelation: I will be happy to send names and titles on request.
Volumes I and II of my own commentary are selling briskly (Vol I now sold
out), and I am working on volumes III and IV, which will bring to total work
to about 1500 pp.

Especially with the Hispanic immigration to the US and other countries, this
would seem important

Juan Stam, Costa Rica



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Paulien" <jonp@...>
To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 2:05 PM
Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Library Resources in the Toronto Area


> I was hoping my comment would just slip quietly into the night, but here
> goes in answer to your question, Joe.
>
> Some 50 plus years ago the library at Andrews University made the
commitment
> to buy every book on Revelation (the Apocalypse of John) that comes out in
> English, German and French (at least), including many if not most
> dissertations. A commitment was also made to scour used bookstores, etc.,
to
> pick up older titles as available.
>
> Recently, in anticipation of the kinds of things accrediting people ask,
our
> librarian sent out asking several major scholarly libraries how many books
> they held in various fields for comparison. In the call number BS 2825,
> which encompasses commentaries and other studies on Revelation, Andrews
had
> the largest quantity of books on Revelation in the test group, which
> included Princeton and Harvard, which are presumably right near the top.
> Given the purchasing history, I think it is likely that Andrews has the
> largest collection (quantitatively). Quality is a separate issue and I'm
not
> sure how one would make that judgment.
>
> So when you are looking for a rare book on Revelation, Andrews might be a
> good place to check.
>
> Jon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Weaks [mailto:j.weaks@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 11:00 AM
> To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Library Resources in the Toronto Area
>
> > From: Jon Paulien [mailto:jonp@...]
> > I don't know. I know Andrews has the largest collection in North
> > America and
> > Princeton and Harvard are in the top five. I don't have any sense of
> > what
> > there is in Toronto.
>
> Jon,
> I'm curious what's the nature of your university's collection that
> makes it superior with regards to "Revelation". What types of material
> do you speak of?
> Cheers,
> Joe
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#759 From: "COATES (MORIAH PLASTICS)" <jasonnola@...>
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 7:01 am
Subject: Partial Preterist Perspectives on Chilton jasonnola@...
Send Email

For those who subscribe to a partial preterist view of The Revelation, David
Chilton's "The Days of Vengeance" is an indispensable commentary. Does
anyone have any perspective on what seems to be a decided bias towards
"Orthodoxy" against Protestantism with respect to the issues of primacy of
church over canon? Is this indicative of a shying away from full preterism
or has Chilton defended this orthodox approach somewhere else?

I am also interested in finding some Eastern Orthodox interpretations of The
Revelation. Can anyone point me in this direction?

Jason Coates
Johannesburg
South Africa

#760 From: "Don K" <dkpret@...>
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 10:44 am
Subject: Re: Partial Preterist Perspectives on Chilton dkpret@...
Send Email

Perhaps it would be helpful to note that Chilton adopted the full preterist
view before his untimely death. He presented some of his reasons why at a
prophecy conference in Oklahoma City, in 1997, that I helped to plan. Tapes
of that session are available from me.
Not sure how much that answers your specific question, but thought it might
be helpful as somewhat of a caveat. In other words, Chilton wound up
ultimately rejecting the "church over canon" perspective that does seem, at
times, to shine through in "Vengeance."
Don K. Preston
Who Is This Babylon?

----- Original Message -----
From: "COATES (MORIAH PLASTICS)" <jasonnola@...>
To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 2:01 AM
Subject: [revelation-list] Partial Preterist Perspectives on Chilton


> For those who subscribe to a partial preterist view of The Revelation,
David
> Chilton's "The Days of Vengeance" is an indispensable commentary. Does
> anyone have any perspective on what seems to be a decided bias towards
> "Orthodoxy" against Protestantism with respect to the issues of primacy of
> church over canon? Is this indicative of a shying away from full preterism
> or has Chilton defended this orthodox approach somewhere else?
>
> I am also interested in finding some Eastern Orthodox interpretations of
The
> Revelation. Can anyone point me in this direction?
>
> Jason Coates
> Johannesburg
> South Africa
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

#761 From: "Kevin P. Edgecomb" <kevino@...>
Date: Sat May 22, 2004 10:41 pm
Subject: Re: Partial Preterist Perspectives on Chilton kedgecom2002
Send Email

For Eastern Orthodox interpretations of Revelation:

The Apocalypse in the Teachings of Ancient Christianity, Archbishop Averky,
available here:
http://www.stherman.com/catalog/chapter_eight/Apoc_book.htm
(older editions of the book are simply titled "Apocalypse;" much is drawn
from Andrew of Caesarea's ancient commentary on Revelation)

For more general, modern Eastern Orthodox eschatology, which touches often
on Revelation:

Dennis Eugene Englemann, A Rumor of War: Christ's Millennial Reign and the
Rapture of the Church. Salisbury, MA: Regina Orthodox Press,
2001.  Available here:
http://store.yahoo.com/reginaorthodoxpress/rumorofwar.html
(The subtitle is potentially misleading; the book is a ciritique of
pre-trib./pre-millennial interpretations, and presents the amillennial as
the preferred, patristic Orthodox eschatology.)

Dennis E. Englemann, Ultimate Things: An Orthodox Christian Perspective on
the End Times. Ben Lomond, CA: Conciliar Press, 1995. Available here:
http://conciliarpress.bizhosting.com/ultimate_things.html

Regards,
Kevin P. Edgecomb
Berkeley, California

At 09:01 AM 5/22/2004 +0200, you wrote:
>For those who subscribe to a partial preterist view of The Revelation, David
>Chilton's "The Days of Vengeance" is an indispensable commentary. Does
>anyone have any perspective on what seems to be a decided bias towards
>"Orthodoxy" against Protestantism with respect to the issues of primacy of
>church over canon? Is this indicative of a shying away from full preterism
>or has Chilton defended this orthodox approach somewhere else?
>
>I am also interested in finding some Eastern Orthodox interpretations of The
>Revelation. Can anyone point me in this direction?
>
>Jason Coates
>Johannesburg
>South Africa
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>