... regarding revelation, inerrancy, etc. In my mind, when John says what he saw was a "vision" "in the Spirit" that would rule out someone consciously and ...
296
Joel and Rachel Wilhelm
joelandrachel@...
Oct 19, 2002 7:22 pm
I don't know who the question is addressed to, but from my point of view, the canonicity of Enoch vs. Revelation would mean that I really can't say what the...
297
Joel and Rachel Wilhelm
joelandrachel@...
Oct 19, 2002 7:33 pm
Ian, From your perspective John's saying what he "saw" was "a vision" is just so much poetic talk then? Joel ... From: Ian Paul To:...
298
Steve Black
steveblack44
Oct 19, 2002 7:39 pm
... Holy special pleading, batman... ... -- Steve Black Vancouver School of Theology Vancouver, BC ... Strangers stopping strangers just to shake their hand......
299
Steve Black
steveblack44
Oct 19, 2002 7:48 pm
... I just realized this reference to the TV series "batman" might not be very clear to anyone born after 1972 or so. What I meant by this criptic reference...
300
Joel and Rachel Wilhelm
joelandrachel@...
Oct 19, 2002 7:58 pm
Steve Black wrote: I just realized this reference to the TV series "batman" might not be very clear to anyone born after 1972 or so. What I meant by this ...
301
Steve Black
steveblack44
Oct 19, 2002 10:52 pm
... My concerns are not with this point of view, as such - but rather how do we engage people who hold views other than our own. In other words, is an given...
302
John W. Marshall
j_william_ma...
Oct 21, 2002 2:07 pm
Steve and Joel, I guess the question circulating between Steve Black and Joel Wilhelm is what are communally accepted presuppositions for "scholarly...
303
Ramsey Michaels
profram@...
Oct 21, 2002 2:14 pm
... From: "John W. Marshall" <john.marshall@...> To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 10:05 AM Subject: RE:...
304
Ramsey Michaels
profram@...
Oct 21, 2002 2:28 pm
As to the discussion between Steve Black and Joel Wilhelm: I'm not sure inerrancy or a creedal stance toward Scripture even enters into it. John is saying,...
305
John W. Marshall
j_william_ma...
Oct 21, 2002 2:47 pm
Ramsey, Adopting the insider perspective is a valuable endeavour in historian's work, but can rarely (I'm tempted to say never) constitute its conclusion. It's...
306
Ramsey Michaels
profram@...
Oct 21, 2002 3:06 pm
John: I don't think I disagree with what you say. It is a strategy, not a destination, to be sure. But the fact of the matter is, we don't know for certain...
307
Ian Paul
revdrianpaul
Oct 21, 2002 3:37 pm
Joel wrote ... so much poetic talk then? The phrase 'just so much' suggests that you think metaphorical language is somehow inferior to 'literal' language....
308
Ian Paul
revdrianpaul
Oct 21, 2002 3:52 pm
... Except that the theme of conquering is prominent before and after; in the messages to the churches one group of opponents is the followers of Nicolaus ...
309
Steve Black
steveblack44
Oct 21, 2002 4:07 pm
... Could we perhaps *start* with something like saying that those specific components that are obviously based and modeled upon other literature (OT, etc.)...
310
Ramsey Michaels
profram@...
Oct 21, 2002 4:59 pm
An observation, and two questions: 1. A new thread sounds like a good idea. 2. What does Moore mean by saying that Revelation's imperial model of the Kingdom...
311
David L. Barr
david.barr@...
Oct 21, 2002 5:09 pm
Ramsey Michaels wrote (extract): I'm not sure inerrancy or a creedal stance toward Scripture even enters into it. John is saying, "Look, I had this vision and...
312
Steve Black
steveblack44
Oct 21, 2002 5:18 pm
... have some concerns w/ Moore's approach. Nevertheless I am going to try and defend them - more fun that way - but this doesn't necessarily reflect my own...
313
Ramsey Michaels
profram@...
Oct 21, 2002 6:12 pm
Re: [revelation-list] Visions?I like the disclaimer by Hillel Schwartz in his magisterial work on the eighteenth century "French Prophets" to the effect that...
314
Steve Friesen
friesens@...
Oct 21, 2002 6:39 pm
... Steve, Thanks for playing devil's (dragon's?) advocate. If Steve's defense of Steve's argument is accurate, then this Steve disagrees with the second...
315
Steve Black
steveblack44
Oct 21, 2002 6:55 pm
... I agree. My critique of Moore's approach is that the figure "the lamb that was slain" isn't taken seriously enough. This literary character subverts the...
316
Greg Carey
gcarey666
Oct 21, 2002 6:59 pm
On a different track, I'd push for emphasizing the creative, literary, and rhetorical dimensions of Revelation. Even if Revelation is a visionary report, it...
317
Ian Paul
revdrianpaul
Oct 21, 2002 10:26 pm
... There is a wide-ranging question here about the 'carry-over' from metaphors, raised elsewhere by Steve (not another one!) Moyise in his article 'Does the ...
318
Kevin P. Edgecomb
kedgecom2002
Oct 21, 2002 10:28 pm
Dear Steve, I'm not so sure about the value of this proposal for imposing an "either literary or vision" dichotomy in Revelation. We've surely all taken note ...
319
Jon Newton
jon@...
Oct 21, 2002 11:06 pm
Regarding Joel's comments. I agree we must take John's claim to be in a visionary state seriously and not just treat Rev. as a work of his creation. However,...
320
Jon Newton
jon@...
Oct 21, 2002 11:26 pm
This assumes that John was trying to "undermine the colonial power of Rome", which means to some degree reading 21st century ideas into a 1st century text. On...
321
Juan Stam
juanstam2001
Oct 22, 2002 1:33 am
Thanks, Ian, for your commentaries and questions! \ ... white ... Nicolaus ... Much more pertnient is the statement in the preceding chapter (5.5) that the ...
322
Leo R Percer
PercerL@...
Oct 22, 2002 3:46 am
Steve Black says:
> My critique of Moore's approach is that the figure "the > lamb > that was slain" isn't taken seriously enough. This literary >...
323
Ian Paul
revdrianpaul
Oct 22, 2002 10:25 am
Juan An interesting discussion! Let us continue... 1. On nikao: I agree that it is used of Christ--but my point was that it is also used of God's enemies. In...
324
David L. Barr
david.barr@...
Oct 22, 2002 12:50 pm
If a non-steve may join the discussion, I want to qualify a point made ... I agree that Christianity did become an imperial religion, but it did so by adopting...
