... From: "John W. Marshall" <john.marshall@...> To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 10:05 AM Subject: RE:...
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Ramsey Michaels
profram@...
Oct 21, 2002 2:28 pm
As to the discussion between Steve Black and Joel Wilhelm: I'm not sure inerrancy or a creedal stance toward Scripture even enters into it. John is saying,...
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John W. Marshall
j_william_ma...
Oct 21, 2002 2:47 pm
Ramsey, Adopting the insider perspective is a valuable endeavour in historian's work, but can rarely (I'm tempted to say never) constitute its conclusion. It's...
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Ramsey Michaels
profram@...
Oct 21, 2002 3:06 pm
John: I don't think I disagree with what you say. It is a strategy, not a destination, to be sure. But the fact of the matter is, we don't know for certain...
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Ian Paul
revdrianpaul
Oct 21, 2002 3:37 pm
Joel wrote ... so much poetic talk then? The phrase 'just so much' suggests that you think metaphorical language is somehow inferior to 'literal' language....
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Ian Paul
revdrianpaul
Oct 21, 2002 3:52 pm
... Except that the theme of conquering is prominent before and after; in the messages to the churches one group of opponents is the followers of Nicolaus ...
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Steve Black
steveblack44
Oct 21, 2002 4:07 pm
... Could we perhaps *start* with something like saying that those specific components that are obviously based and modeled upon other literature (OT, etc.)...
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Ramsey Michaels
profram@...
Oct 21, 2002 4:59 pm
An observation, and two questions: 1. A new thread sounds like a good idea. 2. What does Moore mean by saying that Revelation's imperial model of the Kingdom...
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David L. Barr
david.barr@...
Oct 21, 2002 5:09 pm
Ramsey Michaels wrote (extract): I'm not sure inerrancy or a creedal stance toward Scripture even enters into it. John is saying, "Look, I had this vision and...
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Steve Black
steveblack44
Oct 21, 2002 5:18 pm
... have some concerns w/ Moore's approach. Nevertheless I am going to try and defend them - more fun that way - but this doesn't necessarily reflect my own...
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Ramsey Michaels
profram@...
Oct 21, 2002 6:12 pm
Re: [revelation-list] Visions?I like the disclaimer by Hillel Schwartz in his magisterial work on the eighteenth century "French Prophets" to the effect that...
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Steve Friesen
friesens@...
Oct 21, 2002 6:39 pm
... Steve, Thanks for playing devil's (dragon's?) advocate. If Steve's defense of Steve's argument is accurate, then this Steve disagrees with the second...
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Steve Black
steveblack44
Oct 21, 2002 6:55 pm
... I agree. My critique of Moore's approach is that the figure "the lamb that was slain" isn't taken seriously enough. This literary character subverts the...
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Greg Carey
gcarey666
Oct 21, 2002 6:59 pm
On a different track, I'd push for emphasizing the creative, literary, and rhetorical dimensions of Revelation. Even if Revelation is a visionary report, it...
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Ian Paul
revdrianpaul
Oct 21, 2002 10:26 pm
... There is a wide-ranging question here about the 'carry-over' from metaphors, raised elsewhere by Steve (not another one!) Moyise in his article 'Does the ...
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Kevin P. Edgecomb
kedgecom2002
Oct 21, 2002 10:28 pm
Dear Steve, I'm not so sure about the value of this proposal for imposing an "either literary or vision" dichotomy in Revelation. We've surely all taken note ...
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Jon Newton
jon@...
Oct 21, 2002 11:06 pm
Regarding Joel's comments. I agree we must take John's claim to be in a visionary state seriously and not just treat Rev. as a work of his creation. However,...
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Jon Newton
jon@...
Oct 21, 2002 11:26 pm
This assumes that John was trying to "undermine the colonial power of Rome", which means to some degree reading 21st century ideas into a 1st century text. On...
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Juan Stam
juanstam2001
Oct 22, 2002 1:33 am
Thanks, Ian, for your commentaries and questions! \ ... white ... Nicolaus ... Much more pertnient is the statement in the preceding chapter (5.5) that the ...
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Leo R Percer
PercerL@...
Oct 22, 2002 3:46 am
Steve Black says:
> My critique of Moore's approach is that the figure "the > lamb > that was slain" isn't taken seriously enough. This literary >...
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Ian Paul
revdrianpaul
Oct 22, 2002 10:25 am
Juan An interesting discussion! Let us continue... 1. On nikao: I agree that it is used of Christ--but my point was that it is also used of God's enemies. In...
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David L. Barr
david.barr@...
Oct 22, 2002 12:50 pm
If a non-steve may join the discussion, I want to qualify a point made ... I agree that Christianity did become an imperial religion, but it did so by adopting...
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Steve Black
steveblack44
Oct 22, 2002 3:04 pm
Thanks all for an interesting conversation. Many new possibilities that I hadn't considered have been suggested, for which I am grateful. Jon Newton wrote... ...
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Gareth Powell
garethrevlist@...
Oct 22, 2002 3:13 pm
... David, Thanks for you pertinent comment. I was wondering which sources you used that Christianity has used the ŒBabylon¹ method to establish its ...
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Alan Fuller
rocsy
Oct 22, 2002 8:43 pm
When I asked the question about the bow in Rev 6:2 I didn't realize what an intresting conversation I would touch off, but I'm glad I did. The question I would...
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Leo R Percer
PercerL@...
Oct 23, 2002 1:41 am
... I basically agree with David here, so I'm not offering a criticism except to say that Revelation 12:11 includes another sentence fragment that makes the...
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Ian Paul
revdrianpaul
Oct 23, 2002 9:28 am
Alan Keep asking interesting questions! I have just looked and found that the word zoon occurs 14 times in Rev. This is the same as the occurrences of 'Jesus'...
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Lastday
lastday@...
Oct 23, 2002 4:17 pm
Dear Mr. Percer: Do you see the martyrs' "path to victory" over Satan (by not loving their corporate life unto death) being inspired by the knowledge that "NOW...
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Alan Fuller
rocsy
Oct 23, 2002 10:39 pm
Ian, Thanks for your insightful comments. I found them illuminating. Another intresting thing about the cherubim is their use in furnishing the temple. The...
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David L. Barr
david.barr@...
Oct 24, 2002 12:32 am
Leo Exactly so, though I suspect that they way these terms ("testimony" "sacrifice" "cross") have become religious terms connoting a certain kind of piety...
