Dear Colleagues, Dear Friends,

I wish you all a Blessed Christmas Time, Joyful Holidays and a Happy New
Year!

Hubbes László

--
HUBBES László-Attila, PhD
www.apokaliptikum.lap.hu

visiting lecturer
"SAPIENTIA" UNIVERSITY
FACULTY OF TECHNICAL
AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
530104 Miercurea Ciuc (Csikszereda)
Piata Libertatii (Szabadsag ter) 1
Tel: 0040-266-317121
Fax: 0040-266-372099
E-mail: dekanmtt@...,
Web: http://www.csik.sapientia.ro/mttkar/
ROMANIA

librarian
"BOD PETER" LIBRARY,
Str. Gabor Aron ut 14,
520008, Sfantu Gheorghe (Sepsiszentgyorgy),
judetul Covasna.
Tel.: + 40 (267) 315577
Tel./Fax: + 40 (267) 351609
e-mail: biblio@...
ROMANIA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Book of Revelation Made Easy:
You Can Understand Bible Prophecy
144 pp. Paperback.



Click here for more information and ordering directions: The Book of
Revelation Made Easy

This book is an extremely valuable introduction to Revelation. The material
arose from years of lectures on Revelation in conferences and in a college
setting, as well as while researching a full-length commentary on Revelation.
The
book is written by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.D., author of Before Jerusalem
Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation.

In this brief work you will discover an in-depth study of Revelation 1:7 as
the theme of Revelation. You will see how it points to the AD 70 judgment of
Israel for rejecting ("piercing") the Messiah, rather than to the history-ending
Second Advent of Christ. Following the pattern of the Old Testament prophets
(especially Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel), Revelation presents a forensic
drama outlining God's divorce decree against Israel, her punishment as an
adulterous harlot, and God's taking a new bride, the Christian Church.

You will also learn how Jerusalem aligned herself with Rome to persecute
Christians, becoming the harlot who sat upon the beast (Rev 17:3). Her
high-priestly aristocracy appears in Revelation as the false prophet.

You will see how John consoles the first century saints by providing them
with one important glance into the distant future, showing that their Christian
faith is here for the long run (Rev. 20).

You will discover documentary evidence showing that Revelation was fulfilled
in the first century destruction of the Temple, which concluded the old
covenant economy and closed out the typological worship in the temple.  In this
regard, you will discover parallels between the Epistle to the Hebrews and the
Book of Revelation.

This is a fascinating approach to Revelation following in the train of
thought of Milton S. Terry and Philip Carrington. To order, click on the
following
hyperlink:

https://www.kennethgentry.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=412&
osCsid=vpvdsioi0kkdpjub3cc6jkifv2

CONTENTS

Preface
1. Expectation and Interpretation
   A. John's Expectation
   B. John's Interpretation
   C. John's Confirmation
   Conclusion

2. Literary Theme and Flow
   A. Literary Theme
   B. Thematic Flow
   C. Conclusion

3. The Beast and His Fury
   A. The Beast's Time
   B. The Beast's Location
   C. The Beast's Authority
   D. The Beast's Chronology
   E. The Beast's Character
   F. The Beast's Number
   G. The Beast's Action
   H. The Beast's Revival

4. The Harlot and the Bride
   A. The Theme of Revelation
   B. The Great City
   C. The Saint's Blood
   D. The Harlot's Attire
   E. The Name-calling Pattern
   F. The Literary Contrast
   Conclusion

5. Key Judgments and Their Meaning
   A. The Falling Mountains and the Hiding Caves
   B. The Flowing Blood and the Horses' Bridles
   Conclusion

6. The Millennium and the New Creation
   A. The Millennial Reign of Christ
   B. The New Creation
   Conclusion

7. Conclusion
   Basic Principles
   Key Characters and Actions
   New Testament Concurrence

Bibliography
Scripture Index
Subject Index


Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.M., Th.D.
Revelation Commentary Project on You Tube

    Director, NiceneCouncil.Com
    NiceneCouncil.Com

     Owner, KennethGentry.Com
    KennethGentry.Com

        "Serious Studies for Serious Christians"



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Attached in pdf format is a list of several hundred books for sale at
enormous discounts. The books are in several categories, including:

Abortion / Cultural Issues
Church / Preaching
Classics
Counseling / Psychology
Education / Classical Education
Greek / Latin / Hebrew / Syriac
History / Biography / Classics
Philosophy / Apologetics / Culture
Quotations
Reading / Research
Science / Creation
Society / Politics / Economics
Theology / Bible
Writing / Publishing
Other

Thanks,

Ken Gentry


Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.M., Th.D.
Revelation Commentary Project on You Tube

    Director, NiceneCouncil.Com
    NiceneCouncil.Com

    Moderator, AgainstDispensationalism.Com
    www.AgainstDispensationalism.com

    Executive Director, GoodBirth Ministries
    GoodBirth Ministries
    Theology Q&A

    Owner, KennethGentry.Com
    KennethGentry.Com

        "Serious Studies for Serious Christians"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No pdf attachment accompanied your email, at least to my box

That is most likely because attachments are automatically stripped from posts. 
I would suggest that Kenneth either post the PDF file for download on his site
and provide a link to it (probably best) or that anyone interested e-mail him to
send it by private e-mail.
 george
gfsomsel


… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________




________________________________
From: Edmond Long <enonezed@...>
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 1:52:59 PM
Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Gentry used books


No pdf attachment accompanied your email, at least to my box
.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I fully agree with Dr. Somsel!

Dr. Georg S. Adamsen
List founder

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] Pĺ vegne af George F Somsel
Sendt: 14. januar 2009 01:57
Til: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Gentry used books

That is most likely because attachments are automatically stripped from
posts.  I would suggest that Kenneth either post the PDF file for download
on his site and provide a link to it (probably best) or that anyone
interested e-mail him to send it by private e-mail.
 george
gfsomsel


… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________




________________________________
From: Edmond Long <enonezed@...>
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 1:52:59 PM
Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Gentry used books


No pdf attachment accompanied your email, at least to my box
.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

It has always seemed that caps 1-3 and 4-22 are two separate worlds (Of course,
in one sense they are).  I have been wondering lately if there is not a closer
relation between the two halves of the writing.  Does anyone have some thoughts
they would care to share on this?
 george
gfsomsel


… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dr. Somsel,

I agree. Years ago when I wrote my Master's thesis, I formed the hypothesis
that Rev 4-22 functioned as an argument for the exhortations in Rev 1-3.

Later, I read Dr. Mark W. Wilson's thesis
(http://www.revelation-resources.com/2008/01/06/wilson-the-victor-sayings/).
His studies confirmed what I was at.

In my own thesis I found that both theme and pragmatic function unifies
Revelation. OT themes such as epiphany and the divine warrior motif are used
in both parts of Revelation.

Other scholars (e.g., Kempson, Mazzaferri, Giblin, Bauckham) have shown that
there is a unifying overall structure. This structure is indicated by
external linguistic markers, such as EN PNEUMATI and the numbering
sequences.

There is much, much more to say, but I would say that you are certainly
right!

Dr. Georg S. Adamsen



-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] Pĺ vegne af George F Somsel
Sendt: 14. januar 2009 07:05
Til: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [revelation-list] Continuity

It has always seemed that caps 1-3 and 4-22 are two separate worlds (Of
course, in one sense they are).  I have been wondering lately if there is
not a closer relation between the two halves of the writing.  Does anyone
have some thoughts they would care to share on this?
 george
gfsomsel


… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Of course, everyone is aware of such themes as epiphany and the divine warrior
motif in the Apocalypse.  What interests me more is your hypothesis that 4-22
functioned as an argument for 1-3.  Have you developed that?
 george
gfsomsel


… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________




________________________________
From: Georg S. Adamsen <georg@...>
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:23:21 AM
Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Continuity


Dr. Somsel,

I agree. Years ago when I wrote my Master's thesis, I formed the hypothesis
that Rev 4-22 functioned as an argument for the exhortations in Rev 1-3.

Later, I read Dr. Mark W. Wilson's thesis
(http://www.revelati on-resources. com/2008/ 01/06/wilson- the-victor-
sayings/).
His studies confirmed what I was at.

In my own thesis I found that both theme and pragmatic function unifies
Revelation. OT themes such as epiphany and the divine warrior motif are used
in both parts of Revelation.

Other scholars (e.g., Kempson, Mazzaferri, Giblin, Bauckham) have shown that
there is a unifying overall structure. This structure is indicated by
external linguistic markers, such as EN PNEUMATI and the numbering
sequences.

There is much, much more to say, but I would say that you are certainly
right!

Dr. Georg S. Adamsen

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] Pĺ vegne af George F Somsel
Sendt: 14. januar 2009 07:05
Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
Emne: [revelation- list] Continuity

It has always seemed that caps 1-3 and 4-22 are two separate worlds (Of
course, in one sense they are).  I have been wondering lately if there is
not a closer relation between the two halves of the writing.  Does anyone
have some thoughts they would care to share on this?
 george
gfsomsel

… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.

- Jan Hus
_________
.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Perhaps not "everyone" ... Anyway, yes I have developed that hypothesis. One
might argue that there is a pragmatic unity, even if this is not easily
recognisable by structural markers and contents. However, I argue that
structure and content does indeed support the pragmatic unity, i.e. that
Revelation 4-22 function as an argument for the exhortations in Revelation
1-3. Parts of my thesis is "controversial", but one of its strengths is that
I point to themes and structures recognised by others.

Georg

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] Pĺ vegne af George F Somsel
Sendt: 14. januar 2009 11:39
Til: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [revelation-list] Continuity

Of course, everyone is aware of such themes as epiphany and the divine
warrior motif in the Apocalypse.  What interests me more is your hypothesis
that 4-22 functioned as an argument for 1-3.  Have you developed that?
 george
gfsomsel


… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________




________________________________
From: Georg S. Adamsen <georg@...>
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:23:21 AM
Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Continuity


Dr. Somsel,

I agree. Years ago when I wrote my Master's thesis, I formed the hypothesis
that Rev 4-22 functioned as an argument for the exhortations in Rev 1-3.

Later, I read Dr. Mark W. Wilson's thesis
(http://www.revelati on-resources. com/2008/ 01/06/wilson- the-victor-
sayings/).
His studies confirmed what I was at.

In my own thesis I found that both theme and pragmatic function unifies
Revelation. OT themes such as epiphany and the divine warrior motif are used
in both parts of Revelation.

Other scholars (e.g., Kempson, Mazzaferri, Giblin, Bauckham) have shown that
there is a unifying overall structure. This structure is indicated by
external linguistic markers, such as EN PNEUMATI and the numbering
sequences.

There is much, much more to say, but I would say that you are certainly
right!

Dr. Georg S. Adamsen

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] Pĺ vegne af George F Somsel
Sendt: 14. januar 2009 07:05
Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
Emne: [revelation- list] Continuity

It has always seemed that caps 1-3 and 4-22 are two separate worlds (Of
course, in one sense they are).  I have been wondering lately if there is
not a closer relation between the two halves of the writing.  Does anyone
have some thoughts they would care to share on this?
 george
gfsomsel

… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.

- Jan Hus
_________
.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Are the results of your study available in written form (Perhaps your thesis
which I seem to recall was submitted in English)?  I would be willing to
purchase a copy.
 george
gfsomsel


… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________




________________________________
From: Georg S. Adamsen <georg@...>
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:15:07 AM
Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Continuity


Perhaps not "everyone" ... Anyway, yes I have developed that hypothesis. One
might argue that there is a pragmatic unity, even if this is not easily
recognisable by structural markers and contents. However, I argue that
structure and content does indeed support the pragmatic unity, i.e. that
Revelation 4-22 function as an argument for the exhortations in Revelation
1-3. Parts of my thesis is "controversial" , but one of its strengths is that
I point to themes and structures recognised by others.

Georg

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] Pĺ vegne af George F Somsel
Sendt: 14. januar 2009 11:39
Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
Emne: Re: [revelation- list] Continuity

Of course, everyone is aware of such themes as epiphany and the divine
warrior motif in the Apocalypse.  What interests me more is your hypothesis
that 4-22 functioned as an argument for 1-3.  Have you developed that?
 george
gfsomsel

… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.

- Jan Hus
_________

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Georg S. Adamsen <georg@stubkjaer- adamsen.dk>
To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:23:21 AM
Subject: Re: [revelation- list] Continuity

Dr. Somsel,

I agree. Years ago when I wrote my Master's thesis, I formed the hypothesis
that Rev 4-22 functioned as an argument for the exhortations in Rev 1-3.

Later, I read Dr. Mark W. Wilson's thesis
(http://www.revelati on-resources. com/2008/ 01/06/wilson- the-victor-
sayings/).
His studies confirmed what I was at.

In my own thesis I found that both theme and pragmatic function unifies
Revelation. OT themes such as epiphany and the divine warrior motif are used
in both parts of Revelation.

Other scholars (e.g., Kempson, Mazzaferri, Giblin, Bauckham) have shown that
there is a unifying overall structure. This structure is indicated by
external linguistic markers, such as EN PNEUMATI and the numbering
sequences.

There is much, much more to say, but I would say that you are certainly
right!

Dr. Georg S. Adamsen

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:revelation- list@ yahoogroups. com] Pĺ vegne af George F Somsel
Sendt: 14. januar 2009 07:05
Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
Emne: [revelation- list] Continuity

It has always seemed that caps 1-3 and 4-22 are two separate worlds (Of
course, in one sense they are).  I have been wondering lately if there is
not a closer relation between the two halves of the writing.  Does anyone
have some thoughts they would care to share on this?
 george
gfsomsel

… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.

- Jan Hus
_________
.
.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My thesis is available from a number of European libraries. It may or may
not be available from U.S. libraries as well. I do think that I still have
one or two copies left, but, unfortunately, it is extremely expensive to
send it to the U.S. I will take a look as to whether it is possible to make
a PDF-version of it. PDF-technology has advanced since 2002, I guess.

Georg

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] Pĺ vegne af George F Somsel
Sendt: 14. januar 2009 12:24
Til: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [revelation-list] Continuity

Are the results of your study available in written form (Perhaps your thesis
which I seem to recall was submitted in English)?  I would be willing to
purchase a copy.
 george
gfsomsel


… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________




________________________________
From: Georg S. Adamsen <georg@...>
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:15:07 AM
Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Continuity


Perhaps not "everyone" ... Anyway, yes I have developed that hypothesis. One
might argue that there is a pragmatic unity, even if this is not easily
recognisable by structural markers and contents. However, I argue that
structure and content does indeed support the pragmatic unity, i.e. that
Revelation 4-22 function as an argument for the exhortations in Revelation
1-3. Parts of my thesis is "controversial" , but one of its strengths is
that
I point to themes and structures recognised by others.

Georg

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] Pĺ vegne af George F Somsel
Sendt: 14. januar 2009 11:39
Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
Emne: Re: [revelation- list] Continuity

Of course, everyone is aware of such themes as epiphany and the divine
warrior motif in the Apocalypse.  What interests me more is your hypothesis
that 4-22 functioned as an argument for 1-3.  Have you developed that?
 george
gfsomsel

… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.

- Jan Hus
_________

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Georg S. Adamsen <georg@stubkjaer- adamsen.dk>
To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:23:21 AM
Subject: Re: [revelation- list] Continuity

Dr. Somsel,

I agree. Years ago when I wrote my Master's thesis, I formed the hypothesis
that Rev 4-22 functioned as an argument for the exhortations in Rev 1-3.

Later, I read Dr. Mark W. Wilson's thesis
(http://www.revelati on-resources. com/2008/ 01/06/wilson- the-victor-
sayings/).
His studies confirmed what I was at.

In my own thesis I found that both theme and pragmatic function unifies
Revelation. OT themes such as epiphany and the divine warrior motif are used
in both parts of Revelation.

Other scholars (e.g., Kempson, Mazzaferri, Giblin, Bauckham) have shown that
there is a unifying overall structure. This structure is indicated by
external linguistic markers, such as EN PNEUMATI and the numbering
sequences.

There is much, much more to say, but I would say that you are certainly
right!

Dr. Georg S. Adamsen

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:revelation- list@ yahoogroups. com] Pĺ vegne af George F Somsel
Sendt: 14. januar 2009 07:05
Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
Emne: [revelation- list] Continuity

It has always seemed that caps 1-3 and 4-22 are two separate worlds (Of
course, in one sense they are).  I have been wondering lately if there is
not a closer relation between the two halves of the writing.  Does anyone
have some thoughts they would care to share on this?
 george
gfsomsel

… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.

- Jan Hus
_________
.
.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Thank you, I would appreciate it very much.
 george
gfsomsel


… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________




________________________________
From: Georg S. Adamsen <georg@...>
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:34:43 AM
Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Continuity


My thesis is available from a number of European libraries. It may or may
not be available from U.S. libraries as well. I do think that I still have
one or two copies left, but, unfortunately, it is extremely expensive to
send it to the U.S. I will take a look as to whether it is possible to make
a PDF-version of it. PDF-technology has advanced since 2002, I guess.

Georg

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] Pĺ vegne af George F Somsel
Sendt: 14. januar 2009 12:24
Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
Emne: Re: [revelation- list] Continuity

Are the results of your study available in written form (Perhaps your thesis
which I seem to recall was submitted in English)?  I would be willing to
purchase a copy.
 george
gfsomsel

… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.

- Jan Hus
_________

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Georg S. Adamsen <georg@stubkjaer- adamsen.dk>
To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:15:07 AM
Subject: Re: [revelation- list] Continuity

Perhaps not "everyone" ... Anyway, yes I have developed that hypothesis. One
might argue that there is a pragmatic unity, even if this is not easily
recognisable by structural markers and contents. However, I argue that
structure and content does indeed support the pragmatic unity, i.e. that
Revelation 4-22 function as an argument for the exhortations in Revelation
1-3. Parts of my thesis is "controversial" , but one of its strengths is
that
I point to themes and structures recognised by others.

Georg

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:revelation- list@ yahoogroups. com] Pĺ vegne af George F Somsel
Sendt: 14. januar 2009 11:39
Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
Emne: Re: [revelation- list] Continuity

Of course, everyone is aware of such themes as epiphany and the divine
warrior motif in the Apocalypse.  What interests me more is your hypothesis
that 4-22 functioned as an argument for 1-3.  Have you developed that?
 george
gfsomsel

… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.

- Jan Hus
_________

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Georg S. Adamsen <georg@stubkjaer- adamsen.dk>
To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:23:21 AM
Subject: Re: [revelation- list] Continuity

Dr. Somsel,

I agree. Years ago when I wrote my Master's thesis, I formed the hypothesis
that Rev 4-22 functioned as an argument for the exhortations in Rev 1-3.

Later, I read Dr. Mark W. Wilson's thesis
(http://www.revelati on-resources. com/2008/ 01/06/wilson- the-victor-
sayings/).
His studies confirmed what I was at.

In my own thesis I found that both theme and pragmatic function unifies
Revelation. OT themes such as epiphany and the divine warrior motif are used
in both parts of Revelation.

Other scholars (e.g., Kempson, Mazzaferri, Giblin, Bauckham) have shown that
there is a unifying overall structure. This structure is indicated by
external linguistic markers, such as EN PNEUMATI and the numbering
sequences.

There is much, much more to say, but I would say that you are certainly
right!

Dr. Georg S. Adamsen

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-- ---
Fra: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:revelation- list@ yahoogroups. com] Pĺ vegne af George F Somsel
Sendt: 14. januar 2009 07:05
Til: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
Emne: [revelation- list] Continuity

It has always seemed that caps 1-3 and 4-22 are two separate worlds (Of
course, in one sense they are).  I have been wondering lately if there is
not a closer relation between the two halves of the writing.  Does anyone
have some thoughts they would care to share on this?
 george
gfsomsel

… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.

- Jan Hus
_________
.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have wondered about the significance of 1.3 and 22.7, the hearing
and heeding blessings. Between 4.1 and 22.6, little if anything needs
to be heeded, in the sense of obeying. Seemingly, chaps. 4-22 have an
entirely different purpose than 1-3, and 22.7-21. The only "commmands"
in the Apocalypse are found in the beginning and ending of the book.
Am I on the right track?

I would recommend looking at G. K. Beale's extensive commentary.  He deals
with the matter briefly in his introduction, then in the introduction to the
letters, and then periodically throughout the commentary.  He offers several
reasons for linking the letters to the visions.

Ian R. Brown

-----Original Message-----
From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 1:05 AM
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [revelation-list] Continuity

It has always seemed that caps 1-3 and 4-22 are two separate worlds (Of
course, in one sense they are).  I have been wondering lately if there is
not a closer relation between the two halves of the writing.  Does anyone
have some thoughts they would care to share on this?
 george
gfsomsel


… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

I would argue that what needs heeding in 4:1-22:6 is more implied than
direct; for example, the implied command to avoid idolatry.  Something more
direct would be 13:10, 18; 14:12; 17:9.

Ian R. Brown

-----Original Message-----
From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edmond Long
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:53 AM
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Continuity

I have wondered about the significance of 1.3 and 22.7, the hearing
and heeding blessings. Between 4.1 and 22.6, little if anything needs
to be heeded, in the sense of obeying. Seemingly, chaps. 4-22 have an
entirely different purpose than 1-3, and 22.7-21. The only "commmands"
in the Apocalypse are found in the beginning and ending of the book.
Am I on the right track?


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Do we take the term "heed," (tereo typically means to obey) to mean
"pay attention to," or "to obey"? I am not certain of the presence
implied commands in the 4-22 sections. If they are present, though,
they are subsidiary to the overtly stated commands in the 1-3 and
22.7f sections. The letters in 2-3, on the other hand, are filled with
commands. Again, the question is how do chaps. 4-22 relate to chaps.
2-3 in particular?

Would anyone be so kind to send me some suggestions of texts that trace the
development of apocalyptic interpretation from the first century to the present?
Thanks


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Rev'd Dr. Ian E. RockBarbados, West Indies __




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You could try the 3 volume The encyclopedia of apocalypticism, by John
Joseph Collins, Bernard McGinn, Stephen J Stein, which was abridged as the
Continuum history of apocalypticism.

Ian R. Brown

-----Original Message-----
From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Ian E. Rock
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 4:32 PM
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [revelation-list] Historical development of apocalyptic
interpretation

Would anyone be so kind to send me some suggestions of texts that trace the
development of apocalyptic interpretation from the first century to the
present?
Thanks


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Rev'd Dr. Ian E. RockBarbados, West Indies __




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

For a concise treatment of both the historical and contemporary
scenes, I recommend Arthur Wainwright's Mysterious Apocalypse:
Interpreting the Book of Revelation. Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1993.

David Barr
Professor of Religion
Chair, Departments of Religion, Philosophy, & Classics
Wright State University
Dayton OH 45435

937-775-2293
937-775-2892 (FAX)


On Jan 14, 2009, at 4:31 PM, Dr. Ian E. Rock wrote:

> Would anyone be so kind to send me some suggestions of texts that
> trace the development of apocalyptic interpretation from the first
> century to the present?
> Thanks
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The Rev'd Dr. Ian E. RockBarbados, West Indies __



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I  have noticed something which is distinctive to my redemptive-historical
preterism and which brings out a strong relationship between chs 2-3 and the
rest of Revelation. In the seven letters we have two important references: Rev
2:9 and 3:9. Both denounce the Jews, calling the Jewish synagogue a "synagogue
of Satan" (cp. Jn 8:44). These tie in with Revelation's theme and flow.
 

I see Revelation as paralleling in sentiment the Epistle to the Hebrews. Both
show the passing away of the old covenant order (cp. Heb 8:13; 12:25-29) and the
coming of Christianity as the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:23), with the first century
Christians under persecution (Heb. 10:32-33). Both are concerned with potential
apostasy under this pressure.

 

I hold that John establishes the overall theme of Revelation in Rev. 1:7. That
theme regards Christ's judgment-coming against the "tribes of the Land" (the
Jews) for crucifying Christ (Mt 26:59, 66; 27:1; Mk 14:64; Lk 23:22-23; 24:20;
Lk 24:20; Acts 2:22-23, 36; 3:13-15a; 4:10; 5:28, 30; 7:52; 10:39; 13:27-29; Ac
26:10; 1 Thess. 2:14-15). This coming of Christ is a metaphorical coming, a
providential historical judgment (as in Isa 19:1). This theme verse (uniquely)
parallels Matt 24:30, which is in Christ's discourse on the AD 70 destruction of
the Temple (Matt. 24:1-2, 16). Rev 1:7 and Matt 24:30 are speaking of the same
historical event: AD 70.

 

The "Land dwellers" (aka "earth dwellers") are the non-Christian Jews who live
in the Land. As Revelation unfolds, those sl
ain "in the Land" are the Jewish Christians in Israel (e.g. 6:10-11). The sea
beast (Rome/Nero) is locked in a relationship with the land beast (the Jewish
high priestly aristocracy) against the Christians (cp. Jn 19:12, 15; cp. Mt
27:25). And behind them both is Satan (remember: Rev 2:9; 3:9 at this point).

 

The NT is filled with references to Israel’s persecution of Christians: Mt
10:17; Mt 23:37ff.; Ac 4:1-3, 15-18; 5:17-18, 27-33, 40; 6:12-15; 7:54-60; 8:1;
9:1-4, 13, 21, 23, 29; 12:1-3; 13:45-50; 14:2-5, 19; 17:5-8, 13; 18:6, 12, 17;
20:3, 19; 21:11, 27-32;  22:3-5, 22-23; 23:12, 20-21; 24:5-9, 27; 25:2-15;
25:24; 26:21; 28:17-29; Ro 15:31; 2Co 11:24; Gal 6:12 Heb 10:33-34. Note also
(for one extra-biblical example): Eusebius (Eccl. Hist. 3:5:2): “For the Jews
after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime against him, had
been devising as many plots as they could against his apostles.”

 

The harlot is Jerusalem (cp. Jer 3). She sits upon the sea beast (17:3), showing
her relationship with Rome against the Christians (e.g., Acts 9:1-2; cp. Gal
4:24-26). She is drunk with the blood of the Jewish Christian saints (Rev 17:6;
cp. Matt 23:32-37).

 

As the harlot and false prophet are destroyed in the latter chapters, the new
Jerusalem (Christianity) comes down out of heaven (cp. Gal 4:24-26; Heb. 12:23)
to forever replace her as God's wife.

 

Thus, John is putting on the mantle of an OT prophet in denouncing corrupt
Israel (cp. Isa
1; Jer 3; etc.). And consequently, the statements in Rev 2:9 and 3:9 (there are
others in those letters that also confirm this approach) link with the theme of
Revelation and its flow and development.

 

Obviously this approach will raise a lot of questions (objections). I am
currently working on a commentary that should be about 1000 pages: The Divorce
of Israel: A Redemptive-Historical Commentary on Revelation.



Ken Gentry
 

Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.M., Th.D.

Director, NiceneCouncil.Com
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Ian,

another excellent study - although limited to the interpretations of
the Book of Revelation - would be "Revelation" by Judith Kovacs and
Christopher Rowland published in the Blackwell Bible Commentaries series.

Hubbes Laszlo

--- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Ian E. Rock"
<ianerock@...> wrote:
>
> Would anyone be so kind to send me some suggestions of texts that
trace the development of apocalyptic interpretation from the first
century to the present?
> Thanks
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The Rev'd Dr. Ian E. RockBarbados, West Indies __
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Dear Ian,



For more on these and other relevant resources, se
http://www.revelation-resources.com/category/history-of-interpretation/.



Georg



Dr. Georg S. Adamsen

List founder, and editor



Fra: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] Pĺ vegne af HUBBES Laszlo
Sendt: 17. januar 2009 09:26
Til: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [revelation-list] Re: Historical development of apocalyptic
interpretation



Dear Ian,

another excellent study - although limited to the interpretations of
the Book of Revelation - would be "Revelation" by Judith Kovacs and
Christopher Rowland published in the Blackwell Bible Commentaries series.

Hubbes Laszlo

--- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dr. Ian E. Rock"
<ianerock@...> wrote:
>
> Would anyone be so kind to send me some suggestions of texts that
trace the development of apocalyptic interpretation from the first
century to the present?
> Thanks
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The Rev'd Dr. Ian E. RockBarbados, West Indies __
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think your approach has a lot of strengths, though it doesn't
explain everything about Revelation (but which one approach ever can?)

However, it is susceptible to being used to support anti-semitism. How
do you suggest this be avoided?

Do you see features in the text that would guard against this?
--- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, KennethGentry@... wrote:
>
> I  have noticed something which is distinctive to my
redemptive-historical preterism and which brings out a strong
relationship between chs 2-3 and the rest of Revelation. In the seven
letters we have two important references: Rev 2:9 and 3:9. Both
denounce the Jews, calling the Jewish synagogue a "synagogue of Satan"
(cp. Jn 8:44). These tie in with Revelation's theme and flow.
>  
>
> I see Revelation as paralleling in sentiment the Epistle to the
Hebrews. Both show the passing away of the old covenant order (cp. Heb
8:13; 12:25-29) and the coming of Christianity as the New Jerusalem
(Heb 12:23), with the first century Christians under persecution (Heb.
10:32-33). Both are concerned with potential apostasy under this pressure.
>
>  
>
> I hold that John establishes the overall theme of Revelation in Rev.
1:7. That theme regards Christ's judgment-coming against the "tribes
of the Land" (the Jews) for crucifying Christ (Mt 26:59, 66; 27:1; Mk
14:64; Lk 23:22-23; 24:20; Lk 24:20; Acts 2:22-23, 36; 3:13-15a; 4:10;
5:28, 30; 7:52; 10:39; 13:27-29; Ac 26:10; 1 Thess. 2:14-15). This
coming of Christ is a metaphorical coming, a providential historical
judgment (as in Isa 19:1). This theme verse (uniquely) parallels Matt
24:30, which is in Christ's discourse on the AD 70 destruction of the
Temple (Matt. 24:1-2, 16). Rev 1:7 and Matt 24:30 are speaking of the
same historical event: AD 70.
>
>  
>
> The "Land dwellers" (aka "earth dwellers") are the non-Christian
Jews who live in the Land. As Revelation unfolds, those sl
> ain "in the Land" are the Jewish Christians in Israel (e.g.
6:10-11). The sea beast (Rome/Nero) is locked in a relationship with
the land beast (the Jewish high priestly aristocracy) against the
Christians (cp. Jn 19:12, 15; cp. Mt 27:25). And behind them both is
Satan (remember: Rev 2:9; 3:9 at this point).
>
>  
>
> The NT is filled with references to Israel’s persecution of
Christians: Mt 10:17; Mt 23:37ff.; Ac 4:1-3, 15-18; 5:17-18, 27-33,
40; 6:12-15; 7:54-60; 8:1; 9:1-4, 13, 21, 23, 29; 12:1-3; 13:45-50;
14:2-5, 19; 17:5-8, 13; 18:6, 12, 17; 20:3, 19; 21:11, 27-32; 
22:3-5, 22-23; 23:12, 20-21; 24:5-9, 27; 25:2-15; 25:24; 26:21;
28:17-29; Ro 15:31; 2Co 11:24; Gal 6:12 Heb 10:33-34. Note also (for
one extra-biblical example): Eusebius (Eccl. Hist. 3:5:2): “For the
Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime
against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against
his apostles.”
>
>  
>
> The harlot is Jerusalem (cp. Jer 3). She sits upon the sea beast
(17:3), showing her relationship with Rome against the Christians
(e.g., Acts 9:1-2; cp. Gal 4:24-26). She is drunk with the blood of
the Jewish Christian saints (Rev 17:6; cp. Matt 23:32-37).
>
>  
>
> As the harlot and false prophet are destroyed in the latter
chapters, the new Jerusalem (Christianity) comes down out of heaven
(cp. Gal 4:24-26; Heb. 12:23) to forever replace her as God's wife.
>
>  
>
> Thus, John is putting on the mantle of an OT prophet in denouncing
corrupt Israel (cp. Isa
> 1; Jer 3; etc.). And consequently, the statements in Rev 2:9 and 3:9
(there are others in those letters that also confirm this approach)
link with the theme of Revelation and its flow and development.
>
>  
>
> Obviously this approach will raise a lot of questions (objections).
I am currently working on a commentary that should be about 1000
pages: The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-Historical Commentary on
Revelation.
>
>
>
> Ken Gentry
>  
>
> Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.M., Th.D.
>
> Director, NiceneCouncil.Com
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12 Tribes" "temple"
"Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation. Exegetical integrity would
demand that one follow through interpreting all references in a symbolic way. It
seems to me to be a strange exegetical model that would say some references are
symbolic and some literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation
school methodology which does just that.

For example:
12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12 gates. What it
is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a member of one of the 12
tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of Christ,  the church, made up of
people of every nation, not just Israelites.
That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the fact that
the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12 edges, or outside
perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence a total external measurement
of 144,000, the same number as we find in Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12
tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is clearly intended to be symbolic.

Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the church in
Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange exegesis to then
make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.

As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the harlot system was
alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ but to limit it to those
literal cities would be a great mistake. The Harlot system is with us all the
time. It is called Babylon because it began in Babel. But it rules over "7
mountains" which is a typical OT symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality"
i.e. over all the gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system,
not as Jewish one.

If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we are just
guessing out of our own minds.

Yours
John B


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: jonknewton
   To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 9:52 PM
   Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


   I think your approach has a lot of strengths, though it doesn't
   explain everything about Revelation (but which one approach ever can?)

   However, it is susceptible to being used to support anti-semitism. How
   do you suggest this be avoided?

   Do you see features in the text that would guard against this?
   --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, KennethGentry@... wrote:
   >
   > IÂ  have noticed something which is distinctive to my
   redemptive-historical preterism and which brings out a strong
   relationship between chs 2-3 and the rest of Revelation. In the seven
   letters we have two important references: Rev 2:9 and 3:9. Both
   denounce the Jews, calling the Jewish synagogue a "synagogue of Satan"
   (cp. Jn 8:44). These tie in with Revelation's theme and flow.
   > Â
   >
   > I see Revelation as paralleling in sentiment the Epistle to the
   Hebrews. Both show the passing away of the old covenant order (cp. Heb
   8:13; 12:25-29) and the coming of Christianity as the New Jerusalem
   (Heb 12:23), with the first century Christians under persecution (Heb.
   10:32-33). Both are concerned with potential apostasy under this pressure.
   >
   > Â
   >
   > I hold that John establishes the overall theme of Revelation in Rev.
   1:7. That theme regards Christ's judgment-coming against the "tribes
   of the Land" (the Jews) for crucifying Christ (Mt 26:59, 66; 27:1; Mk
   14:64; Lk 23:22-23; 24:20; Lk 24:20; Acts 2:22-23, 36; 3:13-15a; 4:10;
   5:28, 30; 7:52; 10:39; 13:27-29; Ac 26:10; 1 Thess. 2:14-15). This
   coming of Christ is a metaphorical coming, a providential historical
   judgment (as in Isa 19:1). This theme verse (uniquely) parallels Matt
   24:30, which is in Christ's discourse on the AD 70 destruction of the
   Temple (Matt. 24:1-2, 16). Rev 1:7 and Matt 24:30 are speaking of the
   same historical event: AD 70.
   >
   > Â
   >
   > The "Land dwellers" (aka "earth dwellers") are the non-Christian
   Jews who live in the Land. As Revelation unfolds, those sl
   > ain "in the Land" are the Jewish Christians in Israel (e.g.
   6:10-11). The sea beast (Rome/Nero) is locked in a relationship with
   the land beast (the Jewish high priestly aristocracy) against the
   Christians (cp. Jn 19:12, 15; cp. Mt 27:25). And behind them both is
   Satan (remember: Rev 2:9; 3:9 at this point).
   >
   > Â
   >
   > The NT is filled with references to Israelâ?Ts persecution of
   Christians: Mt 10:17; Mt 23:37ff.; Ac 4:1-3, 15-18; 5:17-18, 27-33,
   40; 6:12-15; 7:54-60; 8:1; 9:1-4, 13, 21, 23, 29; 12:1-3; 13:45-50;
   14:2-5, 19; 17:5-8, 13; 18:6, 12, 17; 20:3, 19; 21:11, 27-32;Â
   22:3-5, 22-23; 23:12, 20-21; 24:5-9, 27; 25:2-15; 25:24; 26:21;
   28:17-29; Ro 15:31; 2Co 11:24; Gal 6:12 Heb 10:33-34. Note also (for
   one extra-biblical example): Eusebius (Eccl. Hist. 3:5:2): â?oFor the
   Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime
   against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against
   his apostles.â?ť
   >
   > Â
   >
   > The harlot is Jerusalem (cp. Jer 3). She sits upon the sea beast
   (17:3), showing her relationship with Rome against the Christians
   (e.g., Acts 9:1-2; cp. Gal 4:24-26). She is drunk with the blood of
   the Jewish Christian saints (Rev 17:6; cp. Matt 23:32-37).
   >
   > Â
   >
   > As the harlot and false prophet are destroyed in the latter
   chapters, the new Jerusalem (Christianity) comes down out of heaven
   (cp. Gal 4:24-26; Heb. 12:23) to forever replace her as God's wife.
   >
   > Â
   >
   > Thus, John is putting on the mantle of an OT prophet in denouncing
   corrupt Israel (cp. Isa
   > 1; Jer 3; etc.). And consequently, the statements in Rev 2:9 and 3:9
   (there are others in those letters that also confirm this approach)
   link with the theme of Revelation and its flow and development.
   >
   > Â
   >
   > Obviously this approach will raise a lot of questions (objections).
   I am currently working on a commentary that should be about 1000
   pages: The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-Historical Commentary on
   Revelation.
   >
   >
   >
   > Ken Gentry
   > Â
   >
   > Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.M., Th.D.
   >
   > Director, NiceneCouncil.Com
   > __________________________________________________________
   > Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >






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7:07 AM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
wooden with your approach.

The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
entry [through its Messiah].

Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
"perfectly holy."

I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
"secret name" came from the letters of its  "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
is not all of a single genre.

Hope this helps!

"Dr. J"
Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
Regent Unversity
Moderator



--- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@...>
wrote:
>
> Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
methodology which does just that.
>
> For example:
> 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
Christ,  the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
Israelites.
> That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
clearly intended to be symbolic.
>
> Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
>
> As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
Jewish one.
>
> If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
are just guessing out of our own minds.
>
> Yours
> John B

I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James or that of First Peter
were writing to Israelites

 
1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
Greetings.
 
The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas 1:1). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson Publishers.
 
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and
Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified
by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:
May grace and peace be yours in abundance.
 
The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Pe 1:1-2). Nashville:
Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Also note that the author of the Apocalypse speaks regarding the Jews in
3.9 as "I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews
and are not, but are lying."  The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said to have "his
name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing
the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."  Thus
it would appear that the OT saints and the Church together form the People of
God.


… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________




________________________________
From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
wooden with your approach.

The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
entry [through its Messiah].

Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
"perfectly holy."

I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
"secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
is not all of a single genre.

Hope this helps!

"Dr. J"
Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
Regent Unversity
Moderator

--- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@ ...>
wrote:
>
> Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
methodology which does just that.
>
> For example:
> 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
Israelites.
> That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
clearly intended to be symbolic.
>
> Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
>
> As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
Jewish one.
>
> If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
are just guessing out of our own minds.
>
> Yours
> John B
.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome?  Or
are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
the church?  I



Tom

Dr. Tom Ricks



________________________________

From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
wooden with your approach.

The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
entry [through its Messiah].

Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
"perfectly holy."

I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
"secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
is not all of a single genre.

Hope this helps!

"Dr. J"
Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
Regent Unversity
Moderator

--- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
<biblestudy@...>
wrote:
>
> Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
methodology which does just that.
>
> For example:
> 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
Israelites.
> That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
clearly intended to be symbolic.
>
> Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
>
> As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
Jewish one.
>
> If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
are just guessing out of our own minds.
>
> Yours
> John B





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It may be a mistake to adopt an exclusively Judaeo-centric
approach to
Revelation in particular and the NT in general.

One of the very earliest NT writings was addressed, after
all, not to Jews
but to a Celtic people, i.e., Paul's Letter to the
Galatians.

The Galatians also boasted  "twelve tribes," three for
each of the four tetrarchies in Galatia.

As for I Peter, there is no evidence for the historical
existence of ANY Jewish communities in Galatia --
although there is evidence for Jewish communties in Asia,
Pontus, Cappadocia and (perhaps)
Bithynia.  So whose "disperson" are we speaking of here?

The Celtic "dispersion" throughout the Mediterranean and
larger Roman world was co-extensive
(and larger by far) with that of the Jews.  NT scholarship
fixates on the Hebrew/Hellenic sources of
early Christianity -- while ignoring at its peril the the
enormous Celtic elephant in the room!

Since contemporary Jewish scholarship is unanimous in
rejecting the idea that the Galileans
were ethnic Jews, the only alternative is that the
Galileans were of gentile origin.  Their name,
"Galilaioi," would have suggested Celtic origins to a
Graeco-Roman audience, and what we know
of Galilean ethnography from Josephus is compatible with
Celtic ethnography in the ancient sources.

Celts were widely dispersed throughout the Middle East
from the time of Alexander as mercenaries.
They were well-known in Ptolemeic Egypt up to Roman times
and beyond.  Many of the Roman legions
in the 1st century were levied from Gaul and Galatia, and
Celtic forces under Roman rule were central
to Vespasian's war againt the Jews and in securing the
destruction of Jerusalem under Titus in AD 70.

Yet this well-attested Celtic presence remains ignored in
NT scholarship.

This brings us back to Solomon Zeitlin's question of more
than a quarter century ago:
"Who Were the Galileans?" (Jewish Quarterly Review, 1974;
65: pp. 189-203)

Historians and NT scholars have yet to provide an adequate
answer to this most
fundamental question of Christian origins.

Charles Gerard Larkin
Faculty of Philosophy and Theology
Saint Leo University (USA)






On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:31:02 -0800 (PST)
   George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
> I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James
>or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites
>
>  
> 1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
> To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
> Greetings.
>  
> The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas
>1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
>  
> 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
> To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia,
>Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen
>and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the
>Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled
>with his blood:
> May grace and peace be yours in abundance.
>  
> The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1
>Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
>
> Also note that the author of the Apocalypse
>speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of
>the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are
>not, but are lying."  The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said
>to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their
>foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the
>servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."  Thus it
>would appear that the OT saints and the Church together
>form the People of God.
>
>
> … search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the
>truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
> To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
> Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
>
>
> I think you have made some good points here, but you are
>being too
> wooden with your approach.
>
> The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need
>not mean that
> one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has
>provided the
> entry [through its Messiah].
>
> Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of
>completeness, it need
> not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel).
>The New
> Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies
>was a cube.
> That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that
>it is
> "perfectly holy."
>
> I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation
>is Rome. It's
> "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma"
>reversed: "Amore."
> Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained
>lust.
>
> I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
>
> Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as
>much art in its
> interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique.
>Both must vary
> with the various literary genres contained in
>Revelation, for the book
> is not all of a single genre.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> "Dr. J"
> Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
> Regent Unversity
> Moderator
>
> --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy"
><biblestudy@ ...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea
>>of "12
> Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places
>in Revelation.
> Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow
>through interpreting
> all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a
>strange
> exegetical model that would say some references are
>symbolic and some
> literal. This would open the door again to the
>Pretribulation school
> methodology which does just that.
>>
>> For example:
>> 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22
>>- the 12
> gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city
>one has to be a
> member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly
>the bride of
> Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation,
>not just
> Israelites.
>> That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is
>>shown by the
> fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube,
>thus having 12
> edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000
>stadia. Hence
> a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number
>as we find in
> Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000
>Israelites" is
> clearly intended to be symbolic.
>>
>> Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are
>>ference to the
> church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It
>seems strange
> exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
>>
>> As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I
>>admit the
> harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the
>time of Christ
> but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great
>mistake. The
> Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called
>Babylon because it
> began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is
>a typical OT
> symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over
>all the
> gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile
>system, not as
> Jewish one.
>>
>> If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us
>>with then we
> are just guessing out of our own minds.
>>
>> Yours
>> John B
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
since Revelation was penned.

Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
depends upon Revelation itself.

That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

Blessings,
Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
Regent University
Moderator

--- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Ricks" <tom@...> wrote:
>
> Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome?  Or
> are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
> the church?  I
>
>
>
> Tom
>
> Dr. Tom Ricks
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
> Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
> To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
>
>
>
> I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
> wooden with your approach.
>
> The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
> one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
> entry [through its Messiah].
>
> Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
> not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
> Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
> That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
> "perfectly holy."
>
> I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
> "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
> Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
>
> I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
>
> Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
> interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
> with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
> is not all of a single genre.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> "Dr. J"
> Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
> Regent Unversity
> Moderator
>
> --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
> <biblestudy@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
> Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
> Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
> all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
> exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
> literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
> methodology which does just that.
> >
> > For example:
> > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
> gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
> member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
> Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
> Israelites.
> > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
> fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
> edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
> a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
> Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
> clearly intended to be symbolic.
> >
> > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
> church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
> exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
> >
> > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
> harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
> but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
> Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
> began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
> symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
> gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
> Jewish one.
> >
> > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
> are just guessing out of our own minds.
> >
> > Yours
> > John B
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>