Remnant, this is from Bro. Horner in Seneaggal.  Unfortuantely the pictures did
not come through, but if anyone wishes them, either I or Bro. Horner could send
them to you.

From: "Walter Horner"


  Dear ones,
  Greetings in the precious name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
  I am glad to be able to put out a fews words with the intension of
  keeping in touch with you.

  Pls continually pray along for us, especially as the Islamic month
  of Ramadan comes in.

  This is a scanned photograph of our school buiding and the
  students. The second and the third year students out
  side the school building.I will be sending the
  pictures of the first year and the wollof school
  later-on.
  Keep us in your prayers!
  walter

    Blessings!
  In Christ Jesus,
  Walter Horner
  Ecole biblique Parole Vivante
  Website: http//www.ebpv.org
  Word Alive Bible Training center
  Bp 10099 Liberte, Dakar, Senegal.
  Tel:(+221-824-48-33) office
      (+221-632-29-69) home

_____________________________________________________
Sent by Jahoopa Free Email!
Find us on the web at http://www.jahoopa.com
Join today!

This is from a listserv member who couldn't post normally this time:

Concerning the rape issue.
An Islamic acquaintance first brought this one to my attention.  It
is
definitely one of those "how much faith do you have" verses that can
discourage someone if they don't face it and figure it out.
First, the examples I saw a few people give won't apply.  This law is
for
people of the faith.  (And that would be one I wouldn't apply to us
today,
because it is one of those against us, but I know many will disagree
here-
Hebrews 9:10)  So, a pagan rapist isn't going to take a lovely Jewish
girl.
1)  50 shekels is a high price, so he does have to pay for her - and
his
action.
2)  Virginity was pretty much a necessity and many were without grace
then
(If you look at Duet 24:1, the original language, favor is best
translated
as grace), she might have not been able to keep a husband but the one
to
forcefully took her. (he humbled her)
3)  It affirms that when two believers consummate, it is serious.. it
is
marriage.
In our mind, conditioned by today's philosophies, this can seem so
unfair.
  So we just have to pray for understanding.
Rachel

These are very good posts.  This is actually a very real scenario in
the world that we live in today.  No one is immune from sins.  What
we must do is look and see what G-d rules are.  He told the
Israelites that they were not to marry outside the Jewish ace.  He
told Christians thorugh Paul to not be unequally yoked together with
unbelievers.  The reason behind this is because believers are
spiritually alive and are able to marry in G-d's eyes, but
unbelievers are spiritually dead and therefore can not be married in
G-d's eyes.  Looking at it from this view, would you marry someone
who was dead?  Would the law allow you?  G-d does not either.  The
provisions regualting this in 1 Corinthians was if a person who is
married to a non believer comes to the L-rd but their spouse does
not, do not leave the spouse.  But if the non-believing spouse
departs, let them because you were not married to begin with.  This
was done to prevent Christians for just dumping their spouse on the
claim that they were not Christians.  The way that you can tell if a
person is a Christian is by their fruit/actions/life.  If the prson
is living a life producing fruits of the spirit then they are alive.
But if they produce dead fruits, then they are dead.  If the person
who rapes has up to that point given off fruits of the spirit and now
is penitant, then you should take them in if you are a man, or if you
are a woman and your father agrres, to stay with them.   No one is
immune from this sin.  But if the fruits produced are dead, then no
you are in no way bound to that person and are free from marital
duty.  For a man, be honest about the situation, for a woman, tll any
future husband.  Do not hide because that is not a fruit of the
spirit.

Scott

Scott, and other men here,
I just want to bring up this sceario, and it is
possible to have actually happened, to a lesser
degree...
Say, a bunch of eight men-haters, (all virgins)having
a peevee againist a man, say, a boss who fired them,
or say, a man, who is a easy victim, cuz of his being
a loner, or just any man they picked out of a phone
book, off street, or even better, a rich and famous
person...or just to be evil....get one of the
well-known and very respected elders of the church, or
some evangelists.
Now, they plotted together, and laid down a trap, and
forcibly snared him (remember Patty Hearst?)...and did
raped him, or at least, forced themselves onto him....
Are they all now his wives, FULLY entitled to all
protections, rights, expectations of wives,
permanently, unto death?
Should we, men live in fear of this?
and...if not, then why should women?
Our God is not a God of double standard!
Roy

P.S. Where do we stand on above example?


--- Jacy <jacy@...> wrote:
> I believe that lust is in the heart of the person,
> in this case the man, and it would not matter how
> the female was dressed.
> I also do not believe that it would be God's will
> for a woman to be married to an abuser or a
> whoremonger.  Jesus says do not be unequally yoked;
> and a believer should not be married to an
> unbeliever.   I would hope that a believing man
> would take this woman into his home and love and
> protect her because she did no wrong.
>
> Jacy
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: polypastor@...
>   To: remnantsounds@egroups.com
>   Sent: November 01, 2000 15:34
>   Subject: [remnantsounds] Re: Rape and marriage

>   So by the definitions that G-d has set on marriage
> and
>   stumblingblocks, the obvious conclusion is that
> you do not wear
>   things that could cause someone to stumble and the
> beginning of
>   marriage is at consumation whether willing or
> unwilling.
>
>   I look forward to more comments,
>   Scott





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----- Original Message -----

From: polypastor@...

To: remnantsounds@egroups.com

Sent: November 01, 2000 15:34

Subject: [remnantsounds] Re: Rape and marriage

Dear Walter,
You bring up a good point.  The way to answer this point is to search
out and find what G-d's definition of marriage is.  The definition
given in Genesis was bone of man's bones and flesh of man's flesh
(Gen 2:23).  Jesus reaffirms this in Matthew when He said, "For this
reason a man should leave his father and mother and be united with
his wife, and the two are to become one flesh.  Thus they are no
longer one flesh but two." Matthew 19:5-6a

So then, when Paul, talking to the Corinthians, said in chapter six
verse sixteen, "What? know ye not that he that is joined to a harlot
is one body?  For two, saith he, shall be one flesh."  He is talking
about both spiritual and physical fornication.  Rape is fornication. 
You actually become one flesh, even when one person does not wish
it.  If being with a prostitute makes us one flesh(married), then
what does rape do?

It is possible that no matter what a woman does, that someone will
lust after her.  That is a fact.  Why did G-d allow the father to
decline the marriage of his daughter after a rape?  If the daughter
is raped by a person who is not even remotely close to being in the
family of G-d, then of course you would not dare think of giving your
daughter to that person.  Now you might say, "But Pastor, no one in
the family of G-d would ever rape another person.  It's
unthinkable."  Is it?  Just beause a man is a follower of G-d, does
that mean that he is not tempted sexually?  Look at Jim Bakker and
Jimmy Swaggert as examples of men who were tempted.  I have been in
the mionistr almost 18 years, and I have known many pastors and
evangelsits that are looking at the women in the congregation and
lusting after them while they are preaching.  I have even known one
pastor who is serving time in a Texas prison because all the
teenagers he counselled he raped.  It can happen to any man, the only
difference is that a Brother in Christ has the ability to be forgiven
by G-d as by his fellow brothers and sisters.  And in this case, it
would be the right decision to hold up the marriage eventhough it was
rape.

Both Paul and Peter told women to dress modestly, and the reasoning
was not to be a stumblingblock.  If I cause someone to sin because of
a liberty or freedom, I have sinned against my brother or sister. 
Leading others to hell is a sin.  I may not feel that it is a sin and
may feel fully justified in doing that, but Paul strsses in Romans 14
and 1 Corinthians 8 that we are not to be a stumblingblock. 

So by the definitions that G-d has set on marriage and
stumblingblocks, the obvious conclusion is that you do not wear
things that could cause someone to stumble and the beginning of
marriage is at consumation whether willing or unwilling. 

I look forward to more comments,
Scott


--- In remnantsounds@egroups.com, "Walter Snell" <wsnell@r...> wrote:
> Dear Group, but especially James and the women,
>
> A number of misconceptions are floating around regarding marriage,
the law, and the nature of relationships.  I am not prepared to
address most of them, but there is one that I just couldn't let go. 
I will quote James and then give a story, which while not
hypothetical, is more of an amalgam of current views and behaviours.
>
> James mentioned a passage from Deuteronomy 22:
>
> A final remark concerning the lesson -
>
> Deuteronomy 22:28-29
> 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed,
> and lay
> hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
> 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's
father
> fifty
> shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath
humbled
> her,
> he may not put her away all his days. (KJV)
>
> In the case in the lesson the man who raped the girl is MARRIED TO
> HER and
> cannot put her away!!!
>
> The reality of the situation is MUCH MORE SEVERE than most
realize. 
> Sexual
> intercourse with a virgin IS the act of marriage (refer previous
> postings).
> Once a girl has lost her virginity she is not eligible to marry
> another man,
>
>
> Allow me to propose a story (please do not read it if you are
easily offended):
>
> Suppose that I am a 21 year old man, a non-Christian, abusive
(especially when I am drunk), a carouser and someone who puts myself
first in everything.  I think women are placed on earth to serve me. 
Women: I am your fathers' worst nightmare.
>
> Now suppose that you are the father of a 15 year old teenage woman
(I think girl, because fathers all know that 15 year olds don't think
very clearly and don't have the emotional maturity to deal with adult
life.)  But for the sake of the story not only does this daughter
have that maturity and love the Lord with ALL of her heart, but she
is very attentive to ALL that He (the Lord) has taught her.  She is
every father's sweetest dream.  Just a word to her from her father
brought instant unquestioning obedience.
>
> I should add that this woman also dresses very demurely.  At school
she is teased for being the "school marm dresser".  She is also
mostly a homebody.  She rarely goes out except to go to church and
she has plans to become a missionary to Egypt one day.  So she
studies a lot. Furthermore she only goes out in groups of three or
more--always wearing a scarf or something around her head so as not
to show off her hair.
>
> Well I have had my eye on this woman.  From the several times that
I have approached her I know her to be one tough cookie.  She is
always talking about God and His kingdom.  She is different.  And I
have decided that while "an easy lay" is nice for the mistress, one's
wife should be pure and chaste.  I can always go out for a little on
the side!  (Studies have shown that men do apply this double standard
to women.)
>
> Well I have been trying for about a year now to get this girl to go
out with me.  Not even going to church works.  She sings in the choir
and is always surrounded by her friends.  Lately I think she has been
ignoring me.  Frankly, I am pissed.  Who does she think she is?  Some
Miss Holier-Than-Thou?  At anyrate it has become clear that she is
never going to even come close to marrying me...and this simply makes
me want her more.
>
> Well I have been watching her quite a while.  I noticed that she
sometimes goes out to a certain park with her girlfriends, sometimes
to have a picnic and sometimes to pray together, (like Jesus did). 
My buddies and I have hatched a plan.  If she won't come willingly
we'll show them who the REAL MEN are.  We TAKE what we want.
>
> The next Saturday came around and when they were walking one day,
near the park we pulled them into a wooded area, carefully holding
their faces and muffling their screams.  We stripped off their
clothes and showed these prudes what real fun is.  I was surprised at
how much virgins bled.
>
> A few days later...well whaddya know! The father comes around and
starts talking about marrying the girl since I have committed
the "marriage act".  He says that God's law says that all I have to
do is pay the 50 sheckels demanded by the law and she is mine for
life!  Well he sat down and said that a sheckel was slightly less
than half an ounce of silver.  Let's see I think he said, "For you,
I'm gona round that up to a full half ounce and let's say that silver
is $6.00 and ounce...so that is $150."
> (After the wedding).
>  I never though it would be so easy.  And she makes such a
wonderful wife...she is very submissive.  I don't think she knows
even when I slip out for some strange flesh...but it doesn't matter--
she can't divorce me!
>
>
> Well that's the story.  I've embellished it with some American
slang--most of which I have heard from non-Christian sources.  This
doesn't happen in America because the law is very strict about
underage relationships and rape.  But in other countries, (in
Catholic Peru and Ecuador) the rules that suggest of being married to
your rapist are enforced as an alternative to going to jail. 
>
> Is this what women want for thier lives?  Do Christian fathers want
their daughters to live in this kind of fear?  How easy it is to
force a woman to marry you! I believe there is little human potential
here.
>
> There is an almost ideal culture--to some minds:  In Arab
countries, the women never go anywhere without a man.  A single woman
alone is considered a prostitute.  They dress from head to foot
whether it be 50°F or 108°F--and it is often warmer than the latter. 
Marriages are often arranged and some are polygynous.  They follow
diet and religious codes strictly (whether or not it is from the
heart).  Basically they are men's property.  If the man wants 12
children, she has them, whether or not she might be in danger.  Many
are chronically depressed.  Is this the kind of society we want to
promote?
>
> I might add, that although the women don't show any skin at all
except around the eyes, most of the women agree that they would
probably not be safe if they went anywhere alone.  In other words,
lust is rampant in a culture that clothes to the extreme and where a
woman NEVER looks a man in the eyes but always keeps her gaze toward
the ground.  Clearly modest dress is no substitute for an attitude of
the heart.
>
> Clearly the societies that limit their women, also limit
themselves.  They are not noble or educated.  You and I would be
repulsed by the conditons of their cities, where infrequent rains are
welcomed even though they bring stifling humidity, because they wash
the sewage from the gutters!
>
> On the other hand, a Christian who understands the inclusive
covenant that God has with each of His creatures, who has respect for
other persons, male or female, as autonomous selves, created in His
image;  who understands that women are more than just objects or
property can walk along a beach with women frolkicking in the surf
entirely nude, admiring their form and joyous freedom without
dragging them off behind a garbage can to have his way with her--
because he has Christ in his heart.  He understands that it is not
the clothes that make us modest (cf. Gulliver's Travels), but the
chaste and clean heart that makes her in even scanty clothes pure
unto God.  Jesus placed the resposibility for lust and adultery,
squarely on the man--no whining about how the woman made me do it
(Boy, is that argument ever old (cf Genesis))  A clean heart can look
at a woman, and see not an object to be adulterated, but a full
creature of God, who does not belong to him (as in property) but to 
God (as His daughter).  And if they do succumb to temptation (this
happens with or without clothes) they understand that they have an
obligation to the special covenant of marriage because they have
already performed it's sacraments.
>
> One other note:
> There is an exception clause, though it may not apply to a rapist:
>
> Exodus 22:16-17:  "'And if a man seduces a virgin who is not
engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his
wife.
> "'If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he shall pay
money equal to the dowry for virgins.'"
>
>
> I do not object to demure dress because of sin in the world and the
differing stages of growth of each Christian,
> But,  to equate rape with marriage is a hideous disfigurement of
the way God intended his children to live with each other.  And I
must protest. 
>
> Love to hear your comments,
>
> Walter
> =:-)




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
remnantsounds-unsubscribe@egroups.com

----- Original Message -----

From: polypastor@...

To: remnantsounds@egroups.com

Sent: October 31, 2000 21:23

Subject: [remnantsounds] Remnant E-Lesson 11-1-00 Opening our lives

How do you feel when you have sat down to eat dinner and someone
comes and knocks on the door?  If you are like most people you are
upset.  But what is it that comes out of your mouth?  What is in your
thoughts?

Dear Walter,
You bring up a good point.  The way to answer this point is to search
out and find what G-d's definition of marriage is.  The definition
given in Genesis was bone of man's bones and flesh of man's flesh
(Gen 2:23).  Jesus reaffirms this in Matthew when He said, "For this
reason a man should leave his father and mother and be united with
his wife, and the two are to become one flesh.  Thus they are no
longer one flesh but two." Matthew 19:5-6a

So then, when Paul, talking to the Corinthians, said in chapter six
verse sixteen, "What? know ye not that he that is joined to a harlot
is one body?  For two, saith he, shall be one flesh."  He is talking
about both spiritual and physical fornication.  Rape is fornication.
You actually become one flesh, even when one person does not wish
it.  If being with a prostitute makes us one flesh(married), then
what does rape do?

It is possible that no matter what a woman does, that someone will
lust after her.  That is a fact.  Why did G-d allow the father to
decline the marriage of his daughter after a rape?  If the daughter
is raped by a person who is not even remotely close to being in the
family of G-d, then of course you would not dare think of giving your
daughter to that person.  Now you might say, "But Pastor, no one in
the family of G-d would ever rape another person.  It's
unthinkable."  Is it?  Just beause a man is a follower of G-d, does
that mean that he is not tempted sexually?  Look at Jim Bakker and
Jimmy Swaggert as examples of men who were tempted.  I have been in
the mionistr almost 18 years, and I have known many pastors and
evangelsits that are looking at the women in the congregation and
lusting after them while they are preaching.  I have even known one
pastor who is serving time in a Texas prison because all the
teenagers he counselled he raped.  It can happen to any man, the only
difference is that a Brother in Christ has the ability to be forgiven
by G-d as by his fellow brothers and sisters.  And in this case, it
would be the right decision to hold up the marriage eventhough it was
rape.

Both Paul and Peter told women to dress modestly, and the reasoning
was not to be a stumblingblock.  If I cause someone to sin because of
a liberty or freedom, I have sinned against my brother or sister.
Leading others to hell is a sin.  I may not feel that it is a sin and
may feel fully justified in doing that, but Paul strsses in Romans 14
and 1 Corinthians 8 that we are not to be a stumblingblock.

So by the definitions that G-d has set on marriage and
stumblingblocks, the obvious conclusion is that you do not wear
things that could cause someone to stumble and the beginning of
marriage is at consumation whether willing or unwilling.

I look forward to more comments,
Scott


--- In remnantsounds@egroups.com, "Walter Snell" <wsnell@r...> wrote:
> Dear Group, but especially James and the women,
>
> A number of misconceptions are floating around regarding marriage,
the law, and the nature of relationships.  I am not prepared to
address most of them, but there is one that I just couldn't let go.
I will quote James and then give a story, which while not
hypothetical, is more of an amalgam of current views and behaviours.
>
> James mentioned a passage from Deuteronomy 22:
>
> A final remark concerning the lesson -
>
> Deuteronomy 22:28-29
> 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed,
> and lay
> hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
> 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's
father
> fifty
> shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath
humbled
> her,
> he may not put her away all his days. (KJV)
>
> In the case in the lesson the man who raped the girl is MARRIED TO
> HER and
> cannot put her away!!!
>
> The reality of the situation is MUCH MORE SEVERE than most
realize.
> Sexual
> intercourse with a virgin IS the act of marriage (refer previous
> postings).
> Once a girl has lost her virginity she is not eligible to marry
> another man,
>
>
> Allow me to propose a story (please do not read it if you are
easily offended):
>
> Suppose that I am a 21 year old man, a non-Christian, abusive
(especially when I am drunk), a carouser and someone who puts myself
first in everything.  I think women are placed on earth to serve me.
Women: I am your fathers' worst nightmare.
>
> Now suppose that you are the father of a 15 year old teenage woman
(I think girl, because fathers all know that 15 year olds don't think
very clearly and don't have the emotional maturity to deal with adult
life.)  But for the sake of the story not only does this daughter
have that maturity and love the Lord with ALL of her heart, but she
is very attentive to ALL that He (the Lord) has taught her.  She is
every father's sweetest dream.  Just a word to her from her father
brought instant unquestioning obedience.
>
> I should add that this woman also dresses very demurely.  At school
she is teased for being the "school marm dresser".  She is also
mostly a homebody.  She rarely goes out except to go to church and
she has plans to become a missionary to Egypt one day.  So she
studies a lot. Furthermore she only goes out in groups of three or
more--always wearing a scarf or something around her head so as not
to show off her hair.
>
> Well I have had my eye on this woman.  From the several times that
I have approached her I know her to be one tough cookie.  She is
always talking about God and His kingdom.  She is different.  And I
have decided that while "an easy lay" is nice for the mistress, one's
wife should be pure and chaste.  I can always go out for a little on
the side!  (Studies have shown that men do apply this double standard
to women.)
>
> Well I have been trying for about a year now to get this girl to go
out with me.  Not even going to church works.  She sings in the choir
and is always surrounded by her friends.  Lately I think she has been
ignoring me.  Frankly, I am pissed.  Who does she think she is?  Some
Miss Holier-Than-Thou?  At anyrate it has become clear that she is
never going to even come close to marrying me...and this simply makes
me want her more.
>
> Well I have been watching her quite a while.  I noticed that she
sometimes goes out to a certain park with her girlfriends, sometimes
to have a picnic and sometimes to pray together, (like Jesus did).
My buddies and I have hatched a plan.  If she won't come willingly
we'll show them who the REAL MEN are.  We TAKE what we want.
>
> The next Saturday came around and when they were walking one day,
near the park we pulled them into a wooded area, carefully holding
their faces and muffling their screams.  We stripped off their
clothes and showed these prudes what real fun is.  I was surprised at
how much virgins bled.
>
> A few days later...well whaddya know! The father comes around and
starts talking about marrying the girl since I have committed
the "marriage act".  He says that God's law says that all I have to
do is pay the 50 sheckels demanded by the law and she is mine for
life!  Well he sat down and said that a sheckel was slightly less
than half an ounce of silver.  Let's see I think he said, "For you,
I'm gona round that up to a full half ounce and let's say that silver
is $6.00 and ounce...so that is $150."
> (After the wedding).
>  I never though it would be so easy.  And she makes such a
wonderful wife...she is very submissive.  I don't think she knows
even when I slip out for some strange flesh...but it doesn't matter--
she can't divorce me!
>
>
> Well that's the story.  I've embellished it with some American
slang--most of which I have heard from non-Christian sources.  This
doesn't happen in America because the law is very strict about
underage relationships and rape.  But in other countries, (in
Catholic Peru and Ecuador) the rules that suggest of being married to
your rapist are enforced as an alternative to going to jail.
>
> Is this what women want for thier lives?  Do Christian fathers want
their daughters to live in this kind of fear?  How easy it is to
force a woman to marry you! I believe there is little human potential
here.
>
> There is an almost ideal culture--to some minds:  In Arab
countries, the women never go anywhere without a man.  A single woman
alone is considered a prostitute.  They dress from head to foot
whether it be 50°F or 108°F--and it is often warmer than the latter.
Marriages are often arranged and some are polygynous.  They follow
diet and religious codes strictly (whether or not it is from the
heart).  Basically they are men's property.  If the man wants 12
children, she has them, whether or not she might be in danger.  Many
are chronically depressed.  Is this the kind of society we want to
promote?
>
> I might add, that although the women don't show any skin at all
except around the eyes, most of the women agree that they would
probably not be safe if they went anywhere alone.  In other words,
lust is rampant in a culture that clothes to the extreme and where a
woman NEVER looks a man in the eyes but always keeps her gaze toward
the ground.  Clearly modest dress is no substitute for an attitude of
the heart.
>
> Clearly the societies that limit their women, also limit
themselves.  They are not noble or educated.  You and I would be
repulsed by the conditons of their cities, where infrequent rains are
welcomed even though they bring stifling humidity, because they wash
the sewage from the gutters!
>
> On the other hand, a Christian who understands the inclusive
covenant that God has with each of His creatures, who has respect for
other persons, male or female, as autonomous selves, created in His
image;  who understands that women are more than just objects or
property can walk along a beach with women frolkicking in the surf
entirely nude, admiring their form and joyous freedom without
dragging them off behind a garbage can to have his way with her--
because he has Christ in his heart.  He understands that it is not
the clothes that make us modest (cf. Gulliver's Travels), but the
chaste and clean heart that makes her in even scanty clothes pure
unto God.  Jesus placed the resposibility for lust and adultery,
squarely on the man--no whining about how the woman made me do it
(Boy, is that argument ever old (cf Genesis))  A clean heart can look
at a woman, and see not an object to be adulterated, but a full
creature of God, who does not belong to him (as in property) but to
God (as His daughter).  And if they do succumb to temptation (this
happens with or without clothes) they understand that they have an
obligation to the special covenant of marriage because they have
already performed it's sacraments.
>
> One other note:
> There is an exception clause, though it may not apply to a rapist:
>
> Exodus 22:16-17:  "'And if a man seduces a virgin who is not
engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his
wife.
> "'If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he shall pay
money equal to the dowry for virgins.'"
>
>
> I do not object to demure dress because of sin in the world and the
differing stages of growth of each Christian,
> But,  to equate rape with marriage is a hideous disfigurement of
the way God intended his children to live with each other.  And I
must protest.
>
> Love to hear your comments,
>
> Walter
> =:-)

Tell us more!

Walter
=:-)

Lets us all keep Brother Horner in our prayers.  He is our missionary
in Dakar Senegal in West Africa.  Bro. Horner heads a ministerial
school there in Dakar and they have launched a crusade there.  Please
keep them in their prayers.

Scott

How do you feel when you have sat down to eat dinner and someone
comes and knocks on the door?  If you are like most people you are
upset.  But what is it that comes out of your mouth?  What is in your
thoughts?

From the overflow of our hearts do we speak, and in speaking, we
invite either good or bad.  By saying that, "I just can't," you have
allowed the demon of defeat to enter into your life.  You have gotten
up from the dinner table, and opened the door to the demon of
defeat.  What you allow yourself to meditate on manifests itself in
different ways.

The child that watches violence on the television screen or plays it
on the video game.  The music that tells you how that money and power
is everything.  The magazines that spout humanistic doctrines of how
what you want you can have.  It is like going to your local discount
shopping store and having everything there that you ever wanted.

Beware!  Speak those things that are not as though they were, because
when you speak them, you will receive, but maybe not what you thought
it was.  "I could just kill my neighbor!  He bothers me so much!"  By
your actions, you are killing your neigbor by showing him the anger,
hate, and injustice that you have allowed yourself to meditate upon.
You neighbor sees this and acts in an according way that leads him to
death - spiritual death.

"I could just die for that outfit."  You are coviting this outfit and
you are dying for it.  Not only could you die spiritually, but you
soon begin doing things to get the money to purchase it that puts
your life in danger because all you can do is look at that coat.

"Man, I have got to have that woman."  (Women reverse it.)  Yes you
have got to, but ecause you did not let the L-rd guide you two
together and you sought after demonic ways to get her, then she will
not be th woman for you and you will say as the ending of one song
says, "So now I'm praying for the end of time to hurry up and arrive,
because if I have to spend another minute with you I don't think that
I could really survive...G-d only knows what I could do right now.
Praying for the end of time so I could end my time with you."
Fitting isn't in.  Even Dr. Faust said a prayer on his deathbed, he
just prayed for the wrong thing.

"My life will end if I do not get that CD!"  Yes, it would.  You have
effectively set yourself up for death either way.  the root of
bitterness has been planted and you will be angry and bitter if you
do not receive that CD meaning you will eat of the fruit of death.
Now if you get that CD, you will listen and listen and listen to that
CD and not pay attention to the one song hidden that is not printed
on the lable that says, "My religion won't condem always lends a
helping hand."  Sorry, that is not G-d's religion.

By the words we speak, we show where our mind is.  Theses words enter
others ears and soon they are saying it.  That is why Paul warned
Timothy, "But keep away from godless babbling, for those who engage
in it will only become more ungodly, and their teaching will eat away
at people like gangreen." 2 Timothy 2:16-17.

So what do we open our lives to.  Is our door crowded with deamons
who noisely knock like those TV shopping channels?  Or is is a quiet
knock of Jesus who wants to com and dine with you?  What are you
opening your lives up to?

Scott

Hey folks,
There was a post that was on a while ago that I can''t get out
of my mind. It was in regards to a lesson Scott wrote. I have
a few comments and questions for James.

"Thus, while not for a moment suggesting that a husband should
lust after his wife we must recognize that Yahweh created
woman to be attractive and beautiful to her husband such that
he is sexually aroused toward her in making love to her WITHIN
MARRIAGE!  The sexual thoughts to which you refer are
PERFECTLY NATURAL towards a man's wife and ONLY IN PRIVATE
should a woman display her body in such a fashion and ONLY TO
HER HUSBAND, a virgin should dress demurely at all times!"  -
A BIG AMEIN Here.

"Thus the "dating" syndrome to which you refer is COMPLETELY
INAPPROPRIATE for any Christian girl - how we as parents deal
with it is another matter. Scripture is quite clear that
Yahweh intended every woman to have a husband and it is quite
clear that the age at which girls were married in Bible times
was at age twelve and a half to about fourteen maximum!  This
continues in many isolated cultures to the present and was
practiced in the Middle East until about a generation ago - I
have met a Lebanese woman in her fifties whose mother,
grandmother, aunts, etc were all married at about 14 to 15
years old and STAYED MARRIED FOR LIFE!"  - Given thought to
this do you think it possible for women to be married at this
age in the US. And do you think it is wrong for a woman to
marry this young? My opinion is that if a woman is ready to be
married at this age and she is a christian and has her parents
okay it. That it's okay under prayer and G-d's say so. For He
alone has the final say. The trick is though, that both are
under complete submission to G-d.

"For those of us with teenage daughters (I have two) we face
an enormous challenge.  It occurs to me that, while marriage
under age 16 or 18 is illegal in most countries at least at
this age steps might be possible within the international
community that have a revelation on Christian polygyny?
Comments readers."  - Actually James, in the US, it is
according to the state laws. In Utah, a woman can be married
at 16 with parents permission. And in Texas she can be married
without parents permission at 17. However, what is your
thought on legal marriage verses marriage under G-d without
papers?

I know I have been kind of vocal lately and I want everyone to
know that I do not intend to offend anyone. I just am curious
of others' belielfs or feelings as the case may be. This is
what this group is all about.

G-d Be With Ya'll
Shalom,
Julie (wife of Scott)

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IT SEEMS TO ME THAT SOMETHING GREAT HAS BEEN POINTED OUT HERE.  AS
PARENTS, THERE ARE TWO THINGS WE NEED TO INSTILL IN OUR CHILDREN AND
THEN LEAVE THE REST UP TO THE L-RD.  THE FIRST IS WE NEED TO SHOW
THEM CHRIST.  TEACH THEM HOW AND WHY G-D LOVES THEM, WHAT HE DID TO
REDEEM THEM, AND WHEN THEY NEED HIM.  THE SECOND THING WE NEED TO
TEACH THEM IS HOW TO SEE THINGS THROUGH G-D'S EYES.  ONCE OR CHILDREN
KNOW WHO G-D IS AND HOW HE SEE'S THEM, THEN THEY WILL BE OPENED TO
LISTENING TO HIM AND WILL BE ABLE TO FOLLOW HIS DIRECTIONS.
BASICALLY, WHAT WE HAVE DONE IS TAUGHT THEM HOW TO COMMUNIVCATE WITH
HIM AND LET HIM DO THE REST.
SCOTT

> Jeffrey makes a good point.
>
> I accepted Christ as Lord at age 13 and fell away progressively in
my
> twenties and thirties until the LORD in His mercy redeemed me at
> close to
> age 40 - sometimes we have to go through that wilderness experience.
>
> However, I don't think we should accept this too readily.  I am
fully
> persuaded that if we as parents really deal with the core issues at
> the
> heart of our Christian walk which open the door for Satan to steal
our
> children, this can be avoided.  However, this requires a much
higher
> level
> of holiness and sanctification than we realise.
>
> Shalom
>
>
> James Robertson

Jeff,
That is a great interpretation. I must have said it very well?
huh? LOL! No really, that I think we all agree that all
children should be raised under G-d. But we should pray for
them as well as raise them right. So I just repeated what you
said. (But you said it much better.) But I don't think anyone
can argue with that.
Julie


"Jeffrey White" <jbwwhite@...> writes:
> Dear Jullie:
>
> There is no need that you apologize to me, but thanks for
your
> consideration. I am not at all offended by different
understandings and
> viewpoints.
>
> My original point was that faith is a matter of heart
firstly and
> secondarily one of upbringing. While we can do all in our
power and ability
> to raise children with the knowledge of God, it's not
failure proof. The
> kings Josiah and Hezekiah, although righteous, had sons who
turned out to be
> evil and rejected the word and instruction which their
fathers had
> wholeheartedly embraced. On the other hand, Nebuchadnezzar
appears to moved
> from the Babylonian religion of his fathers to an honest
recognition of the
> absolute supremacy of Yahweh over all other gods. Whether he
made a complete
> break with his traditional religion or not, the testimony
concerning
> underscores the point that the way we are raised is no
guarantee of what we
> will be later. I would much rather put my trust in God alone
for what will
> become of my children (in my case, stepchildren) than in any
way in which I
> might raise them, although I would also take to heart the
admonitions in the
> Scriptures concerning raising children. No natural means
brings anyone into
> the new birth - only god can do that - and that's precisely
my point.
> Nevertheless, it is better that parents encourage their
children to believe,
> sow the seed as the Sower leads, and pray for them
consistently with the
> expectation that the Father will eventually reveal Jesus to
their hearts.
>
> Shalom, Jeffrey
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Julie Ledbetter <ilovemydad@...>
> To: remnantsounds@egroups.com <remnantsounds@egroups.com>
> Date: Monday, October 30, 2000 2:11 PM
> Subject: [remnantsounds] Re: Christian Teens Falling Away
>
> >Jeffrey,
> >I see what you mean and I apologize for not taking that
into
> >consideration. I myself am not of the same undertsanding as
my
> >mother and father. My father, while being a christian has
not
> >come to the understanding of polygyny. And my mother is far
> >from understanding G-d herself. So I guess that would be
the
> >one exception. If the child/teenager is following G-d
clearly
> >then the only change would be for us as their family to
> >encourage that person so that they will not fall away. So
in
> >turn it would be our responsibility to watch out for other
> >teenagers/brothers/sisters in christ and encourage each
other
> >always.
> >Jullie
> >
> >"Jeffrey White" <jbwwhite@...> writes:
> >> What about that which proceeds from God apart from the
> >parents?
> >>
> >
> >
> >_____________________________________________________
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Roy, this is how I see it.

> I have one comment here, to blood sacrifice part ...
> please expound, folks, on this particular passage...
> Acts 21:26 And to thinbk that thisw was done by Paul,
> of all, who expounded on these matters to no length in
> his letters...
> Roy

Consider the woman's time of impurity in Lev. 15:28-30. She
was to have a time of impurity followed by purification and a
sacrifice. That was common in many impurities. Now, in Acts
21:24, the elders told him to go and purify himself to prove
that he follows the law. He did just that. But, notice the
last bit of verse 26, "at which time an offering SHOULD be
made for every one of them" It never said the sacrifice was
made. It said it should be made. In my veiw, 'should', in this
instance, means should have been, had the sacrifices not been
done away with by Jesus. That's how I see it.
Julie

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Dear Jullie:

There is no need that you apologize to me, but thanks for your
consideration. I am not at all offended by different understandings and
viewpoints.

My original point was that faith is a matter of heart firstly and
secondarily one of upbringing. While we can do all in our power and ability
to raise children with the knowledge of God, it's not failure proof. The
kings Josiah and Hezekiah, although righteous, had sons who turned out to be
evil and rejected the word and instruction which their fathers had
wholeheartedly embraced. On the other hand, Nebuchadnezzar appears to moved
from the Babylonian religion of his fathers to an honest recognition of the
absolute supremacy of Yahweh over all other gods. Whether he made a complete
break with his traditional religion or not, the testimony concerning
underscores the point that the way we are raised is no guarantee of what we
will be later. I would much rather put my trust in God alone for what will
become of my children (in my case, stepchildren) than in any way in which I
might raise them, although I would also take to heart the admonitions in the
Scriptures concerning raising children. No natural means brings anyone into
the new birth - only god can do that - and that's precisely my point.
Nevertheless, it is better that parents encourage their children to believe,
sow the seed as the Sower leads, and pray for them consistently with the
expectation that the Father will eventually reveal Jesus to their hearts.

Shalom, Jeffrey

-----Original Message-----
From: Julie Ledbetter <ilovemydad@...>
To: remnantsounds@egroups.com <remnantsounds@egroups.com>
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000 2:11 PM
Subject: [remnantsounds] Re: Christian Teens Falling Away


>Jeffrey,
>I see what you mean and I apologize for not taking that into
>consideration. I myself am not of the same undertsanding as my
>mother and father. My father, while being a christian has not
>come to the understanding of polygyny. And my mother is far
>from understanding G-d herself. So I guess that would be the
>one exception. If the child/teenager is following G-d clearly
>then the only change would be for us as their family to
>encourage that person so that they will not fall away. So in
>turn it would be our responsibility to watch out for other
>teenagers/brothers/sisters in christ and encourage each other
>always.
>Jullie
>
>"Jeffrey White" <jbwwhite@...> writes:
>> What about that which proceeds from God apart from the
>parents?
>>
>
>
>_____________________________________________________
>Sent by Jahoopa Free Email!
>Find us on the web at http://www.jahoopa.com
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>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>remnantsounds-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>

Jeffrey,
I see what you mean and I apologize for not taking that into
consideration. I myself am not of the same undertsanding as my
mother and father. My father, while being a christian has not
come to the understanding of polygyny. And my mother is far
from understanding G-d herself. So I guess that would be the
one exception. If the child/teenager is following G-d clearly
then the only change would be for us as their family to
encourage that person so that they will not fall away. So in
turn it would be our responsibility to watch out for other
teenagers/brothers/sisters in christ and encourage each other
always.
Jullie

"Jeffrey White" <jbwwhite@...> writes:
> What about that which proceeds from God apart from the
parents?
>


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wanted to join in the welcoming chorus and welcome
Keary...and it is always gratifying to see others come
to truths, and more importantly, to set out and accept
them...that is priceless, and worthy of us holding
onto...
This below, refers to Julie's note, which I pasted
below...
"Over time I have learned that when you come to the
understanding that a certain issue is true, and  you
see it clearly in G-d's word, you must live/believe it
or you are  sinning. (AMEIN!)
I came to the understanding that Jesus never took away
the  old laws. (Some call them the Laws of Moses)
I believe that they were  G-d's laws and in turn He is
"the same yesterday, today, and  tommorrow".
Hebrews 10 tells us that the only thing  that changed
when Jesus died on the cross, was that there was no
more  any need for animal sacrifices.
Because He had sent the one and only  perfect
sacrifice.
So this is my understanding. Just something to
ponder. (When G-d gave the ten commandments, do you
think He only  meant for christians to obey 9 of
them?)
   Julie"

I have one comment here, to blood sacrifice part ...
please expound, folks, on this particular passage...
Acts 21:26 And to thinbk that thisw was done by Paul,
of all, who expounded on these matters to no length in
his letters...
Roy


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Welcome Keary and L, I am so glad we have one more person seeking G-
d's face and not the faces of preachers. May G-d pour out His
blessings upon you.

My name is Julie and I am Scott's wife. Over time I have learned that
when you come to the understanding that a certain issue is true, and
you see it clearly in G-d's word, you must live/believe it or you are
sinning. I came to the understanding that Jesus never took away the
old laws. (Some call them the Laws of Moses) I believe that they were
G-d's laws and in turn He is "the same yesterday, today, and
tommorrow". Notice in the beginning of each set of laws it says, "And
the L-rd spoke unto Moses saying, Tell the children of Isreal..."
When we become christians, we are grafted into the children of
Isreal, correct? Well when you become grafted, you become a part of
them, taking on their traits. Hebrews 10 tells us that the only thing
that changed when Jesus died on the cross, was that there was no more
any need for animal sacrifices. Because He had sent the one and only
perfect sacrifice. So this is my understanding. Just something to
ponder. (When G-d gave the ten commandments, do you think He only
meant for christians to obey 9 of them?)

Julie


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What about that which proceeds from God apart from the parents?

Shalom, Jeffrey

-----Original Message-----
From: Julie Ledbetter <ilovemydad@...>
To: remnantsounds@egroups.com <remnantsounds@egroups.com>
Date: Friday, October 27, 2000 10:29 PM
Subject: [remnantsounds] Re: Christian Teens Falling Away


>I completely agree with James on this one. Everything a child
>or even a teenager learns originates from the parents. We need
>to be more watchful of ourselves and change ourselves first.
>Your children will follow if you are following God. When the
>Master's hand is in it then no man, child, peer, or teenager
>can change it.
>Julie
>
>
>_____________________________________________________
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>
>

Hello Keary,
It is good to hear from you.  I am a pastor at G-d's Remnant Church
of Austin and lead Reamnant Ministries of which Christ is the head.
G-d has said that he hates divorce, but He loves the person and is
always willing to forgive and give you new tasks in life.  I pray
that you find this group a warm and welcome place.  This is where we
share thoughts and where we learn together.  Look forward to hearing
more from you.

Pastor Scott

LaMan318@... writes:
> Hello... I look forward to hearing from everyone.  I'm a divorced
> Christian man in Louisiana, 48 and I have a 15 year old daughter.
 I
> grew up southern baptist and I'm now spirit-filled non-
denominational.
>
> For YEARS I've been seeking the deeper truths...my heart desire has
> been to separate what is "CULTURAL Christianity" from the TRUTH in
the
> word.  Since I believe that the TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE, I've made
an
> honest journey:  I've come to believe that God's patriarchial
family
> is the Biblical norm, and so I've come to the place where I can't
> reject Biblical polygamy...the evidence is too heavy that God
"Hates
> divorce" but doesn't "HATE POLYGAMY".
>
> So blessings to all who love our Lord.
>
> Look forward to hearing from others, especially anyone in the south.
>
> Keary in L
>
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----- Original Message -----

From: LaMan318@...

To: remnantsounds@egroups.com

Sent: October 28, 2000 17:23

Subject: [remnantsounds] Hello group! Introduction

Hello... I look forward to hearing from everyone.  I'm a divorced
Christian man in Louisiana, 48 and I have a 15 year old daughter.  I
grew up southern baptist and I'm now spirit-filled non-denominational.

For YEARS I've been seeking the deeper truths...my heart desire has
been to separate what is "CULTURAL Christianity" from the TRUTH in the
word.  Since I believe that the TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE, I've made an
honest journey:  I've come to believe that God's patriarchial family
is the Biblical norm, and so I've come to the place where I can't
reject Biblical polygamy...the evidence is too heavy that God "Hates
divorce" but doesn't "HATE POLYGAMY".

So blessings to all who love our Lord.

Look forward to hearing from others, especially anyone in the south.

Keary in L




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----- Original Message -----

From: Scott Ledbetter

To: remnantsounds@egroups.com

Sent: October 28, 2000 15:12

Subject: [remnantsounds] An unusual question

There are many times when as a Pastor I get asked questions that
actually catch me by surprise.  I get asked about polygamy all the
time and about end time events, but I was asked recently about a
subject that very seldom gets brought up.  The subject is on Marriage
and how was it done in Biblical times. 

I could spend hours on this topic, but in this particular case I
didn't have hours.  Neither did I have time to go research (that is
why we are told to always be ready with an answer and to study all
the time).  I began with the best example that I could find - G-d's
example.

In the garden, G-d child, Adam, was ready to have a wife.  So instead
of letting His son go out and find one through the modern dating
trial and error method, instead He took it upon Himself to make sure
that a proper mate was found.  G-d had Adam sit and He then searched
high and low for a mate.  here is where the modern version is a
little skewed.  G-d gave His son a task to where He could bring
possible mates around and see which one was the best for His son. 
Adam was told to name the animals.  One by one each came by, but G-d
was not pleased with the results.  Finally, G-d, while Adam was
sleeping, brought him Eve, the person G-d had origionally planned for
Adam.  When Adam awoke, G-d did not give him the choice of accepting
or rejecting, but rather presented him with his wife.

I then went to G-d's second example recorded in the scriptures.  Once
again G-d is searching for a bride for His son, Jesus.  Once again,
He did not leave the choice to His son, but rather sent Jesus to do a
task that would bring potential brides in front of Him.  Jesus spent
three years cultivating a relationship that would truely last an
eternity.  Finally, when Jesus was asleep (dead), the bride was
brought to Him that had origionally been prepared.  The Church. 

there are many similarities.  For one, the Father of the son looks
for a suitable bride for his son.  Flip side is the father of the
bride is continually preparing his daughter for marriage.  The sons
father put his son in the position of wworking with possible brides,
but not to where the son gets intmently attatched.  The brides are
brought before their husand trusting thier father to have made the
perfect decision for them.  the children leave those decisions up to
their fathers.  And the woman is considered as a physicall part of
her husband by the fathers. 

I explained that yes I believe in arrainged marriage because my
Heavenly Father chose them for His sons.  If it is good enough for my
G-d, then it is certainly good enough for me.  What this means though
is that from the moment a son is born, he is being trained to be a
husband, and from the moment a girl is born that she is being
prepared to be a wife.  Only a prepared person is ready for
marriage.  G-d is good and has given us perfect examples with the
notion that we are to follow.  So this means that we are to follow
His divine way.

I do not know if that person went away sorrowful or glad.  It is hard
for people in the modern day world to grasp the concept of G-d and
His way.  But I am to be an imitator of Christ; holy as G-d is holy. 
I can not bring, or live up to inferior choices and still be Holy.

Pastor Scott

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Hello... I look forward to hearing from everyone.  I'm a divorced
Christian man in Louisiana, 48 and I have a 15 year old daughter.  I
grew up southern baptist and I'm now spirit-filled non-denominational.

For YEARS I've been seeking the deeper truths...my heart desire has
been to separate what is "CULTURAL Christianity" from the TRUTH in the
word.  Since I believe that the TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE, I've made an
honest journey:  I've come to believe that God's patriarchial family
is the Biblical norm, and so I've come to the place where I can't
reject Biblical polygamy...the evidence is too heavy that God "Hates
divorce" but doesn't "HATE POLYGAMY".

So blessings to all who love our Lord.

Look forward to hearing from others, especially anyone in the south.

Keary in L

There are many times when as a Pastor I get asked questions that
actually catch me by surprise.  I get asked about polygamy all the
time and about end time events, but I was asked recently about a
subject that very seldom gets brought up.  The subject is on Marriage
and how was it done in Biblical times.

I could spend hours on this topic, but in this particular case I
didn't have hours.  Neither did I have time to go research (that is
why we are told to always be ready with an answer and to study all
the time).  I began with the best example that I could find - G-d's
example.

In the garden, G-d child, Adam, was ready to have a wife.  So instead
of letting His son go out and find one through the modern dating
trial and error method, instead He took it upon Himself to make sure
that a proper mate was found.  G-d had Adam sit and He then searched
high and low for a mate.  here is where the modern version is a
little skewed.  G-d gave His son a task to where He could bring
possible mates around and see which one was the best for His son.
Adam was told to name the animals.  One by one each came by, but G-d
was not pleased with the results.  Finally, G-d, while Adam was
sleeping, brought him Eve, the person G-d had origionally planned for
Adam.  When Adam awoke, G-d did not give him the choice of accepting
or rejecting, but rather presented him with his wife.

I then went to G-d's second example recorded in the scriptures.  Once
again G-d is searching for a bride for His son, Jesus.  Once again,
He did not leave the choice to His son, but rather sent Jesus to do a
task that would bring potential brides in front of Him.  Jesus spent
three years cultivating a relationship that would truely last an
eternity.  Finally, when Jesus was asleep (dead), the bride was
brought to Him that had origionally been prepared.  The Church.

there are many similarities.  For one, the Father of the son looks
for a suitable bride for his son.  Flip side is the father of the
bride is continually preparing his daughter for marriage.  The sons
father put his son in the position of wworking with possible brides,
but not to where the son gets intmently attatched.  The brides are
brought before their husand trusting thier father to have made the
perfect decision for them.  the children leave those decisions up to
their fathers.  And the woman is considered as a physicall part of
her husband by the fathers.

I explained that yes I believe in arrainged marriage because my
Heavenly Father chose them for His sons.  If it is good enough for my
G-d, then it is certainly good enough for me.  What this means though
is that from the moment a son is born, he is being trained to be a
husband, and from the moment a girl is born that she is being
prepared to be a wife.  Only a prepared person is ready for
marriage.  G-d is good and has given us perfect examples with the
notion that we are to follow.  So this means that we are to follow
His divine way.

I do not know if that person went away sorrowful or glad.  It is hard
for people in the modern day world to grasp the concept of G-d and
His way.  But I am to be an imitator of Christ; holy as G-d is holy.
I can not bring, or live up to inferior choices and still be Holy.

Pastor Scott

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Hello everyone.  As the message I sent yesturday stated, this is the
new place for our listserv.  Please feel free to send you responses
and thoughts to the listserv.  May G-d richly bless each and every
one of you.

Scott

I completely agree with James on this one. Everything a child
or even a teenager learns originates from the parents. We need
to be more watchful of ourselves and change ourselves first.
Your children will follow if you are following God. When the
Master's hand is in it then no man, child, peer, or teenager
can change it.
Julie


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Jeffrey makes a good point.

I accepted Christ as Lord at age 13 and fell away progressively in my
twenties and thirties until the LORD in His mercy redeemed me at
close to
age 40 - sometimes we have to go through that wilderness experience.

However, I don't think we should accept this too readily.  I am fully
persuaded that if we as parents really deal with the core issues at
the
heart of our Christian walk which open the door for Satan to steal our
children, this can be avoided.  However, this requires a much higher
level
of holiness and sanctification than we realise.

Shalom


James Robertson

Hi Scott

An excellent point!

The other side of this, which needs to be acknowledged in the context
of
this list, is that men and women should realize that Yahweh created
men to
be sexually aroused by their wives naked bodies.  Yahweh Himself in
Ezekial
24:16 refers to a wife as "The desire of your eyes"

16 "Son of man, behold, I take away from you the *desire* of your
eyes with
one stroke; yet you shall neither mourn nor weep, nor shall your
tears run
down.
17 "Sigh in silence, make no mourning for the dead; bind your turban
on your
head, and put your sandals on your feet; do not cover your lips, and
do not
eat man's bread of sorrow."
18 So I spoke to the people in the morning, and at evening *my wife*
died;
and the next morning I did as I was commanded. (NKJ)

Thus, while not for a moment suggesting that a husband should lust
after his
wife we must recognize that Yahweh created woman to be attractive and
beautiful to her husband such that he is sexually aroused toward her
in
making love to her WITHIN MARRIAGE!  The sexual thoughts to which you
refer
are PERFECTLY NATURAL towards a man's wife and ONLY IN PRIVATE should
a
woman display her body in such a fashion and ONLY TO HER HUSBAND, a
virgin
should dress demurely at all times!

The story of Esther is perhaps the most dramatic example in scripture
where
Yahweh used the sexual attraction between man and woman to bring
Esther to
the position of Queen and from the story we infer that Esther must
have made
love to the king in a skilled manner that was pleasing to him.

Thus we see that Satan has corrupted what Yahweh intended for
pleasure and
joy within the confines of marriage and publicly displayed it for all
to see
AND then led all of us and our youth to believe that it is normal and
acceptable.

Another dimension contained in Genesis 3:16 is that woman is
Commanded to
desire her husband

16 To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your
conception; in pain you shall bring forth children; your *desire*
shall be
for your husband, and he shall rule over you." (NKJ)

Thus the "dating" syndrome to which you refer is COMPLETELY
INAPPROPRIATE
for any Christian girl - how we as parents deal with it is another
matter.
Scripture is quite clear that Yahweh intended every woman to have a
husband
and it is quite clear that the age at which girls were married in
Bible
times was at age twelve and a half to about fourteen maximum!  This
continues in many isolated cultures to the present and was practiced
in the
Middle East until about a generation ago - I have met a Lebanese
woman in
her fifties whose mother, grandmother, aunts, etc were all married at
about
14 to 15 years old and STAYED MARRIED FOR LIFE!

Furthermore, since scripture permits a man to have more than one wife
there
is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED for any girl or woman to reach an age where her
sexual
needs and need for love compels her to dress in the manner described
in the
posting in order to find a man.  There is a pressing need for those
who know
the truth about marriage to recognize that men ARE RESPONSIBLE to
Yahweh for
unmarried Christian women and will have to give account to Him for
why they
did not take steps to marry such women as have come across their
paths.

For those of us with teenage daughters (I have two) we face an
enormous
challenge.  It occurs to me that, while marriage under age 16 or 18 is
illegal in most countries at least at this age steps might be possible
within the international community that have a revelation on Christian
polygyny?  Comments readers.

A final remark concerning the lesson -

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed,
and lay
hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father
fifty
shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled
her,
he may not put her away all his days. (KJV)

In the case in the lesson the man who raped the girl is MARRIED TO
HER and
cannot put her away!!!

The reality of the situation is MUCH MORE SEVERE than most realize.
Sexual
intercourse with a virgin IS the act of marriage (refer previous
postings).
Once a girl has lost her virginity she is not eligible to marry
another man,
refer Deuteronomy 22:13-21.  I have stressed to my sixteen and a half
year
old daughter that she must understand that if she puts herself in a
situation where she is raped she is not permitted before God to marry
another and that she must therefore take all reasonable precautions.
We
still find that she is getting trapped into some of what is described
because all her friends and TV, etc has convinced her that NORMAL
girls
behave that way.  It is a real challenge - but it relates also to my
posting
yesterday about teenagers falling away - we must see such things as an
URGENT WARNING to draw closer to God so that by so doing we can draw
our
children out of the world!

Shalom


James Robertson