--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "davidmcgrann" <d.mcgrann@...> wrote:
>
> Yep, you're wrong. The "common area" of a mall isn't usually public property
and is private property. It's "common area" in the sense that it's shared access
for all of the tenants.

  The mall is open to the public. You can take photos. Not sure about in the
stores but you can photograph the "common area"

> Penn Traffic just filed for bankruptcy ... closing 55 of 79 remaining stores.
>
  The 120 independents supplied by Penn Traffic(some Bi-Los, Riverside, Big M)
are not part of the 79  stores that are closing if not sold.
  Penn Traffic owns 36 stores in PA, 1 in NH, 2 in VT and 40 in NY.

It's no surprise that Penn Traffic is finally liquidating after destroying many
chains, including Big Bear and leading Grand Union to its first bankruptcy in
1995.

Likely the 24 stores that are not closing are franchised BiLo and Riverside
Markets, mainly in Pennsylvania and neighboring portions of Upstate New York.
P&C is gone unless there is a buyer between now and February. P&C would have
some appeal to Price Chopper, Tops and Weis or independents.

The surviving BiLo/Riverside stores will have to find new supply channels and
maybe even new names. I believe C&S is supplying P&C, so it would be on track as
a new supplier to BiLo/Riverside or even acquiring P&C, in addition to the
aforementioned chains.

I don't know anyone who has anything good to say about Hirsch or Penn Traffic,
and beyond Big Bear, Grand Union and P&C, little heritage sentimentality exists
for the brands it butchered.

--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Dirty H" <dirtyharry_callahan@...>
wrote:
>
> Penn Traffic just filed for bankruptcy ... closing 55 of 79 remaining stores.
>

Penn Traffic just filed for bankruptcy ... closing 55 of 79 remaining stores.

Yep, you're wrong. The "common area" of a mall isn't usually public property and
is private property. It's "common area" in the sense that it's shared access for
all of the tenants.

--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "bporter01" <bporter01@...> wrote:
>
>
>  I  may be wrong but I beleive people have a right to take pictures in the
common areas of a mall.
>  As for Edna taking a picture of a "kitchy building", as long as you are on
public property you can take all the pictures you want.
>

--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "knockwood1966" <efloyd@...> wrote:
>
>
> So both of us tell our bad mall cop stories and neither revealed the mall
where we had our issues. There might have been a reason for that! Like perhaps I
don't need to have people start problems for me? Maybe I said too much by
revealing the city.
>
>

The only time anybody has ever confronted me for taking pictures was at my local
Giant Eagle.  I argued with the store manager and an off-duty Columbus officer
and told them unless they have a sign on the front door that says I can't take
pictures (Macy's does this), there's nothing they can do about it.  They tried
to make me delete the pictures and I told them to take a hike!

That said, I can see how they might be concerned with someone casing the store
to plan out a robbery or some other misdeed.  But give me a breake!!!  A
middle-aged, well-dressed geek with a camera who is stealing shots of the dairy
case and wall graphics does not seem to me to be much to worry about!!!

It reminds me of when they profile 90-year old white women at the airport.  GIVE
ME A BREAK!!!  CAN WE HAVE A LITTLE COMMON SENSE???

So both of us tell our bad mall cop stories and neither revealed the mall where
we had our issues. There might have been a reason for that! Like perhaps I don't
need to have people start problems for me? Maybe I said too much by revealing
the city.

As for whatever mall in Georgia is dying, many of them are. Columbus and Macon
are in the same situation. Their malls are in decline  because of new big box
shopping areas down the road. Each with a nearby Walmart, Target and Sams Club
in the area. Columbus' shopping trends are north of the existing mall and Macon
has two developing shopping areas. One west of the old mall and one upscale on
the northern edge of town. All of the newer trends have restaurants in the
outparcel and car dealerships nearby, especially luxury models.

The older malls also lost anchors with the demise of Parisian and earlier moves
from Dillards. Then they lost the smaller stores that moved to the newer
shopping areas. So yes we can say that the older malls are very insecure about
their future. But they are also shooting themselves in the foot. Management is
rather poor in all areas. My poor treatment was in a specific mall though I am
sure the others have simular policies and aren't as militant in enforcing them.

I don't know. But I deal with lots of idiots that turn out to be unemployed
later while I keep chugging along.


--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Road Warrior" <jct5jet@...> wrote:
>
> I am going to safely assume you are referring to Peachtree Mall, since
Columbus Square is gone and forgotten (though a local person I was in touch with
posted pics recently on their site only to magically appear on another...I asked
permission from that first person, but never posted the same).
>
> I'm sure Peachtree Mall is insecure, because I've also heard they're dying.  I
don't blame you for being pissed.  Because of their bad attitudes, I'm forced to
sneak around for photos everywhere I go, because I believe that capturing broad
appeal history is important.  I feel fortunate when I get through a mall without
being caught.  I try not to be too hard on a mall in my blog so that they don't
come after me and try to shut my site down, too.
>
> At this particular mall, it wasn't just the mall cop, but also a guy in a blue
shirt that may have been some assistant manager.  I don't mention the name,
because I don't want to give them anything to search on.  I live near a city
where people start shit all the time for no reason, so I don't take too well to
nonsense like this.  I have developed my bullshit survival skills.
>
> As I said before, a mall that treats its customers (or potential customers)
like criminals deserves to die.  I hope the anchors pull out and it gets boarded
up in the next couple years, and I feel like they owe me an apology and a mall
coupon for their treatment.  I was considering buying a little food in the mall,
but like hell if I wanted to spend a penny in there after that.  I had a mall
cop at another mall very politely tell me to stop and to get permission.  I
politely stopped and attempted to get permission, but nobody was in the office
that day.
>
> --- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "knockwood1966" <efloyd@> wrote:
> >
> > Excuse me while I vent LOL!  This is a topic perfect for me to comment on.
> >
> > 17 years ago when I had my first camcorder I friend came down to Florida to
visit me for a week. On the last day he wanted to go to the local mall to buy
something to take home to his girlfriend. I had this new video camera and
basically video taped our entire week together. Disney world, busch gardens,
even the FTL airport, no problems with taking photos of video. So we go to the
mall and I got video of my friend making faces as he rode down in one of those
glass elevators at the food court. That is when a mall cop stopped and VERY
POLITELY told me that it was against mall policy to record video on the
premises.
> >
> > There was no rudeness and no attitude of any kind from the mall cop. He even
let me explain what I was doing and he said he understood and explained that I
needed to have permission first. Then we went our separate ways and I never
recorded video in a public place again. I just didn't think about doing it. My
experience years ago was ok, over and out. Done and forgotten like the old
Pompano Fashion Square where it happened. (Now rebuilt as Citi Centre)
> >
> > Fast forward to early 2009 at a mall in Columbus Georgia (take your pick out
of the one they didn't tear down LOL)  I have been doing inspections and
business verifications for banks for 6 years now. Some of my work requires me to
visit a place of business to physically verify many aspects of the business that
may be obtaining a loan or establishing a credit card sales account. Many credit
card processors do verify a place of business before allowing them to use their
service to accept credit and debit cards for payment.
> >
> > Anyway, I have visited independent businesses in malls from the Atlanta
suburbs to South Georgia since 2003. I am required by the banks to take a photo
of a business's sinage,business license, inventory, sales floor and sales
counter including cash register and credit card terminal.
> >
> > ONLY ONE TIME DID I EVER HAVE ISSUES and that was in Columbus Georgia where
I was "required" to call the management office to make an appointment, provide
information about me and my "employer" (I am not an employee I am an independent
contractor), verify appointment with business that is leasing in the mall AND
have a mall security person present at the time that I would take photographs.
Then the mall cop was supposed to "approve" all photos! This meant I would give
the mall cop my camera so he can look at the photos and delete what he felt was
not acceptable.
> >
> > HELL NO I did not allow some fat ass mall cop to take my digital camera and
view any photos. I did SHOW him the photos I took while carefully selecting only
the photos of the business I was there to inspect. I had other business on that
camera and I wasn't about to allow anyone to access that confidential
information about other accounts and appointments I had that day. Of course the
mall cop had his authority complex and gave me grief about it. But he was about
5 foot 6 and 300 pounds. I'm a half a foot taller than he is and I weigh "a
little more" than he did. I also had a deeper voice, though I will never sound
like Barry White LOL.  IN other words, I started talking "mess" about as much as
the mall cop did toward me then I got the hell out of there.
> >
> > I wasn't very professional about it. Their attitude was far worse. They
talked down to me like I was a child. "MS mall manager" couldn't have been older
than 30 and her portly Barney Fife may have been closer to my age, which is a
little over 40, but I'll be dammed if I was going to accept the attitude these
people were giving me. I get access to nearby Fort Benning Military Base with
less grief than that mall in Columbus Georgia. And it just happened that a
business at the BX on Fort Benning was my next stop. If any place should be
concerned about someone taking photos on property you would think a military
base would. But only in secured areas that you wouldn't have access to anyway.
Not the retail center on Fort Benning.
> >
> > Well I never heard anything about my returned rudeness to the mall cop or
the idiot manager who dared to call me by my first name while introducing
herself as "ms" whatever. You do NOT play that with me. It's condensending and
rude to assume that you can address me by my first name if I cannot address you
the same. You are managing a mall. It doesn't make you special. She should be
more concerned about filling up vacant retail space within her mall she wanted
to control photographs of.
> >
> > I wonder do these people harass all of the teenage brats with camera cell
phones as much as these clowns did to someone like me who was doing his job? If
so, its no wonder  most of these malls are dying or dead.
> >
> > So that was my ONLY bad Mall cop/mall management experience. Thank you for
the chance to vent. And I haven't had a reason to return to that mall since.
> >
> > (no offense intended with my expression)
> >
> > Mall cops, and mall management in my example suffer from what I call
"badge-itis"  They develop some self important superiority complex that makes
them think they can treat people like crap and expect everyone they think is
"beneath" them to kiss their ass. Sorry but I am not an ass kisser. I am a nice
and polite person until "badge-itis" kicks in. And I will squash it like like a
roach.
> >
> > What are they going to do, kick me out of a mall that I rarely shop in
anyway?
> >
> >
> > --- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Road Warrior" <jct5jet@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yesterday, I had a very nasty run in with mall cops at a particular mall
in TN.  This mall I had put off a very long time previously even though I had
passed it multiple times.  Needless to say, I did not finish it, but their
behavior was inexcusable.  They were very threatening in their demeanor treating
me like I was stealing merchandise or planning on doing harm to their structure
(as if taking pictures of a court area or department store entrance would
release deadly radiation).
> > >
> > > This mall was also recently put on the infamous "dead mall" list though it
seemed no worse for wear than before.  I was very pissed at their attitude and
was rude back to them before storming out of the place, though I gave them no
possibility that I would delete those photos.  The guy acted like a wannabe
prison warden or some pumped up ex-military that obviously needed to go back. 
In the future, I may even encourage people to boycott this place, because my
treatment was extremely poor.  They literally followed me out to the parking
lot.  No instance have I ever had that harsh of treatment.
> > >
> > > Any of you others had bad trouble with mall cops?  I am usually good about
avoiding them, but this time this little dump was dripping with them and there
wasn't enough people in there for them to have enough to do anyway.
> > >
> >
>

Since I'm about to do a post on a mall that contained one of these mysterious
"upscaled" Newberry's, I'd love to hear some background on it (dates, etc.).  It
sounds like it was a really great concept, but very poorly conceived.  I don't
know of any that ever existed in Georgia, but I could be wrong.  Newberry's
itself is intriguing to me...I am thinking it was a better dollar concept, and
it had a great logo, but likewise it was unfamiliar to me until a few years ago.

I am going to safely assume you are referring to Peachtree Mall, since Columbus
Square is gone and forgotten (though a local person I was in touch with posted
pics recently on their site only to magically appear on another...I asked
permission from that first person, but never posted the same).

I'm sure Peachtree Mall is insecure, because I've also heard they're dying.  I
don't blame you for being pissed.  Because of their bad attitudes, I'm forced to
sneak around for photos everywhere I go, because I believe that capturing broad
appeal history is important.  I feel fortunate when I get through a mall without
being caught.  I try not to be too hard on a mall in my blog so that they don't
come after me and try to shut my site down, too.

At this particular mall, it wasn't just the mall cop, but also a guy in a blue
shirt that may have been some assistant manager.  I don't mention the name,
because I don't want to give them anything to search on.  I live near a city
where people start shit all the time for no reason, so I don't take too well to
nonsense like this.  I have developed my bullshit survival skills.

As I said before, a mall that treats its customers (or potential customers) like
criminals deserves to die.  I hope the anchors pull out and it gets boarded up
in the next couple years, and I feel like they owe me an apology and a mall
coupon for their treatment.  I was considering buying a little food in the mall,
but like hell if I wanted to spend a penny in there after that.  I had a mall
cop at another mall very politely tell me to stop and to get permission.  I
politely stopped and attempted to get permission, but nobody was in the office
that day.

--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "knockwood1966" <efloyd@...> wrote:
>
> Excuse me while I vent LOL!  This is a topic perfect for me to comment on.
>
> 17 years ago when I had my first camcorder I friend came down to Florida to
visit me for a week. On the last day he wanted to go to the local mall to buy
something to take home to his girlfriend. I had this new video camera and
basically video taped our entire week together. Disney world, busch gardens,
even the FTL airport, no problems with taking photos of video. So we go to the
mall and I got video of my friend making faces as he rode down in one of those
glass elevators at the food court. That is when a mall cop stopped and VERY
POLITELY told me that it was against mall policy to record video on the
premises.
>
> There was no rudeness and no attitude of any kind from the mall cop. He even
let me explain what I was doing and he said he understood and explained that I
needed to have permission first. Then we went our separate ways and I never
recorded video in a public place again. I just didn't think about doing it. My
experience years ago was ok, over and out. Done and forgotten like the old
Pompano Fashion Square where it happened. (Now rebuilt as Citi Centre)
>
> Fast forward to early 2009 at a mall in Columbus Georgia (take your pick out
of the one they didn't tear down LOL)  I have been doing inspections and
business verifications for banks for 6 years now. Some of my work requires me to
visit a place of business to physically verify many aspects of the business that
may be obtaining a loan or establishing a credit card sales account. Many credit
card processors do verify a place of business before allowing them to use their
service to accept credit and debit cards for payment.
>
> Anyway, I have visited independent businesses in malls from the Atlanta
suburbs to South Georgia since 2003. I am required by the banks to take a photo
of a business's sinage,business license, inventory, sales floor and sales
counter including cash register and credit card terminal.
>
> ONLY ONE TIME DID I EVER HAVE ISSUES and that was in Columbus Georgia where I
was "required" to call the management office to make an appointment, provide
information about me and my "employer" (I am not an employee I am an independent
contractor), verify appointment with business that is leasing in the mall AND
have a mall security person present at the time that I would take photographs.
Then the mall cop was supposed to "approve" all photos! This meant I would give
the mall cop my camera so he can look at the photos and delete what he felt was
not acceptable.
>
> HELL NO I did not allow some fat ass mall cop to take my digital camera and
view any photos. I did SHOW him the photos I took while carefully selecting only
the photos of the business I was there to inspect. I had other business on that
camera and I wasn't about to allow anyone to access that confidential
information about other accounts and appointments I had that day. Of course the
mall cop had his authority complex and gave me grief about it. But he was about
5 foot 6 and 300 pounds. I'm a half a foot taller than he is and I weigh "a
little more" than he did. I also had a deeper voice, though I will never sound
like Barry White LOL.  IN other words, I started talking "mess" about as much as
the mall cop did toward me then I got the hell out of there.
>
> I wasn't very professional about it. Their attitude was far worse. They talked
down to me like I was a child. "MS mall manager" couldn't have been older than
30 and her portly Barney Fife may have been closer to my age, which is a little
over 40, but I'll be dammed if I was going to accept the attitude these people
were giving me. I get access to nearby Fort Benning Military Base with less
grief than that mall in Columbus Georgia. And it just happened that a business
at the BX on Fort Benning was my next stop. If any place should be concerned
about someone taking photos on property you would think a military base would.
But only in secured areas that you wouldn't have access to anyway. Not the
retail center on Fort Benning.
>
> Well I never heard anything about my returned rudeness to the mall cop or the
idiot manager who dared to call me by my first name while introducing herself as
"ms" whatever. You do NOT play that with me. It's condensending and rude to
assume that you can address me by my first name if I cannot address you the
same. You are managing a mall. It doesn't make you special. She should be more
concerned about filling up vacant retail space within her mall she wanted to
control photographs of.
>
> I wonder do these people harass all of the teenage brats with camera cell
phones as much as these clowns did to someone like me who was doing his job? If
so, its no wonder  most of these malls are dying or dead.
>
> So that was my ONLY bad Mall cop/mall management experience. Thank you for the
chance to vent. And I haven't had a reason to return to that mall since.
>
> (no offense intended with my expression)
>
> Mall cops, and mall management in my example suffer from what I call
"badge-itis"  They develop some self important superiority complex that makes
them think they can treat people like crap and expect everyone they think is
"beneath" them to kiss their ass. Sorry but I am not an ass kisser. I am a nice
and polite person until "badge-itis" kicks in. And I will squash it like like a
roach.
>
> What are they going to do, kick me out of a mall that I rarely shop in anyway?
>
>
> --- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Road Warrior" <jct5jet@> wrote:
> >
> > Yesterday, I had a very nasty run in with mall cops at a particular mall in
TN.  This mall I had put off a very long time previously even though I had
passed it multiple times.  Needless to say, I did not finish it, but their
behavior was inexcusable.  They were very threatening in their demeanor treating
me like I was stealing merchandise or planning on doing harm to their structure
(as if taking pictures of a court area or department store entrance would
release deadly radiation).
> >
> > This mall was also recently put on the infamous "dead mall" list though it
seemed no worse for wear than before.  I was very pissed at their attitude and
was rude back to them before storming out of the place, though I gave them no
possibility that I would delete those photos.  The guy acted like a wannabe
prison warden or some pumped up ex-military that obviously needed to go back. 
In the future, I may even encourage people to boycott this place, because my
treatment was extremely poor.  They literally followed me out to the parking
lot.  No instance have I ever had that harsh of treatment.
> >
> > Any of you others had bad trouble with mall cops?  I am usually good about
avoiding them, but this time this little dump was dripping with them and there
wasn't enough people in there for them to have enough to do anyway.
> >
>

I  may be wrong but I beleive people have a right to take pictures in the
common areas of a mall.
  As for Edna taking a picture of a "kitchy building", as long as you are on
public property you can take all the pictures you want.

--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "jpmnewyork" <jpm55@...> wrote:
>
> --- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Road Warrior" <jct5jet@>
> wrote:
> >
> As I've said before, the authorities in society don't want you to get a
> worthwhile photo. They want to limit you to stupid family/friend photos
> and pictures of flowers...as long as it's nowhere interesting. Why buy
> an expensive camera for that?
> >
> Yeah, why buy an expensive camera just for stupid photos of stupid
> family and friends? Why would anybody want those?  Stupid family and
> friends....
>
Um I didn't mean taking photos of family and friends is stupid...I mean getting
an expensive camera just for the purpose alone kind of is.  That was tongue and
cheek anyway.

The demise of longtime successful GM dealerships continues full stream as the
Cadillac dealers shut down.

Detroit this week

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/21676874/detail.html


Historic Savannah Georgia a few weeks ago

http://www.connectsavannah.com/news/article/101239/

And I wish I had thought to get photos of the beautiful vintage Building that
was Backus Cadillac in Savannah. Also its classic sinage.

I was so excited I had many typos!

--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "knockwood1966" <efloyd@...> wrote:
>
> Excuse me while I vent LOL!  This is a topic perfect for me to comment on.
>
> 17 years ago when I had my first camcorder I friend came down to Florida to
visit me for a week. On the last day he wanted to go to the local mall to buy
something to take home to his girlfriend. I had this new video camera and
basically video taped our entire week together. Disney world, busch gardens,
even the FTL airport, no problems with taking photos of video. So we go to the
mall and I got video of my friend making faces as he rode down in one of those
glass elevators at the food court. That is when a mall cop stopped and VERY
POLITELY told me that it was against mall policy to record video on the
premises.
>
> There was no rudeness and no attitude of any kind from the mall cop. He even
let me explain what I was doing and he said he understood and explained that I
needed to have permission first. Then we went our separate ways and I never
recorded video in a public place again. I just didn't think about doing it. My
experience years ago was ok, over and out. Done and forgotten like the old
Pompano Fashion Square where it happened. (Now rebuilt as Citi Centre)
>
> Fast forward to early 2009 at a mall in Columbus Georgia (take your pick out
of the one they didn't tear down LOL)  I have been doing inspections and
business verifications for banks for 6 years now. Some of my work requires me to
visit a place of business to physically verify many aspects of the business that
may be obtaining a loan or establishing a credit card sales account. Many credit
card processors do verify a place of business before allowing them to use their
service to accept credit and debit cards for payment.
>
> Anyway, I have visited independent businesses in malls from the Atlanta
suburbs to South Georgia since 2003. I am required by the banks to take a photo
of a business's sinage,business license, inventory, sales floor and sales
counter including cash register and credit card terminal.
>
> ONLY ONE TIME DID I EVER HAVE ISSUES and that was in Columbus Georgia where I
was "required" to call the management office to make an appointment, provide
information about me and my "employer" (I am not an employee I am an independent
contractor), verify appointment with business that is leasing in the mall AND
have a mall security person present at the time that I would take photographs.
Then the mall cop was supposed to "approve" all photos! This meant I would give
the mall cop my camera so he can look at the photos and delete what he felt was
not acceptable.
>
> HELL NO I did not allow some fat ass mall cop to take my digital camera and
view any photos. I did SHOW him the photos I took while carefully selecting only
the photos of the business I was there to inspect. I had other business on that
camera and I wasn't about to allow anyone to access that confidential
information about other accounts and appointments I had that day. Of course the
mall cop had his authority complex and gave me grief about it. But he was about
5 foot 6 and 300 pounds. I'm a half a foot taller than he is and I weigh "a
little more" than he did. I also had a deeper voice, though I will never sound
like Barry White LOL.  IN other words, I started talking "mess" about as much as
the mall cop did toward me then I got the hell out of there.
>
> I wasn't very professional about it. Their attitude was far worse. They talked
down to me like I was a child. "MS mall manager" couldn't have been older than
30 and her portly Barney Fife may have been closer to my age, which is a little
over 40, but I'll be dammed if I was going to accept the attitude these people
were giving me. I get access to nearby Fort Benning Military Base with less
grief than that mall in Columbus Georgia. And it just happened that a business
at the BX on Fort Benning was my next stop. If any place should be concerned
about someone taking photos on property you would think a military base would.
But only in secured areas that you wouldn't have access to anyway. Not the
retail center on Fort Benning.
>
> Well I never heard anything about my returned rudeness to the mall cop or the
idiot manager who dared to call me by my first name while introducing herself as
"ms" whatever. You do NOT play that with me. It's condensending and rude to
assume that you can address me by my first name if I cannot address you the
same. You are managing a mall. It doesn't make you special. She should be more
concerned about filling up vacant retail space within her mall she wanted to
control photographs of.
>
> I wonder do these people harass all of the teenage brats with camera cell
phones as much as these clowns did to someone like me who was doing his job? If
so, its no wonder  most of these malls are dying or dead.
>
> So that was my ONLY bad Mall cop/mall management experience. Thank you for the
chance to vent. And I haven't had a reason to return to that mall since.
>
> (no offense intended with my expression)
>
> Mall cops, and mall management in my example suffer from what I call
"badge-itis"  They develop some self important superiority complex that makes
them think they can treat people like crap and expect everyone they think is
"beneath" them to kiss their ass. Sorry but I am not an ass kisser. I am a nice
and polite person until "badge-itis" kicks in. And I will squash it like like a
roach.
>
> What are they going to do, kick me out of a mall that I rarely shop in anyway?
>
>
> --- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Road Warrior" <jct5jet@> wrote:
> >
> > Yesterday, I had a very nasty run in with mall cops at a particular mall in
TN.  This mall I had put off a very long time previously even though I had
passed it multiple times.  Needless to say, I did not finish it, but their
behavior was inexcusable.  They were very threatening in their demeanor treating
me like I was stealing merchandise or planning on doing harm to their structure
(as if taking pictures of a court area or department store entrance would
release deadly radiation).
> >
> > This mall was also recently put on the infamous "dead mall" list though it
seemed no worse for wear than before.  I was very pissed at their attitude and
was rude back to them before storming out of the place, though I gave them no
possibility that I would delete those photos.  The guy acted like a wannabe
prison warden or some pumped up ex-military that obviously needed to go back. 
In the future, I may even encourage people to boycott this place, because my
treatment was extremely poor.  They literally followed me out to the parking
lot.  No instance have I ever had that harsh of treatment.
> >
> > Any of you others had bad trouble with mall cops?  I am usually good about
avoiding them, but this time this little dump was dripping with them and there
wasn't enough people in there for them to have enough to do anyway.
> >
>

Excuse me while I vent LOL!  This is a topic perfect for me to comment on.

17 years ago when I had my first camcorder I friend came down to Florida to
visit me for a week. On the last day he wanted to go to the local mall to buy
something to take home to his girlfriend. I had this new video camera and
basically video taped our entire week together. Disney world, busch gardens,
even the FTL airport, no problems with taking photos of video. So we go to the
mall and I got video of my friend making faces as he rode down in one of those
glass elevators at the food court. That is when a mall cop stopped and VERY
POLITELY told me that it was against mall policy to record video on the
premises.

There was no rudeness and no attitude of any kind from the mall cop. He even let
me explain what I was doing and he said he understood and explained that I
needed to have permission first. Then we went our separate ways and I never
recorded video in a public place again. I just didn't think about doing it. My
experience years ago was ok, over and out. Done and forgotten like the old
Pompano Fashion Square where it happened. (Now rebuilt as Citi Centre)

Fast forward to early 2009 at a mall in Columbus Georgia (take your pick out of
the one they didn't tear down LOL)  I have been doing inspections and business
verifications for banks for 6 years now. Some of my work requires me to visit a
place of business to physically verify many aspects of the business that may be
obtaining a loan or establishing a credit card sales account. Many credit card
processors do verify a place of business before allowing them to use their
service to accept credit and debit cards for payment.

Anyway, I have visited independent businesses in malls from the Atlanta suburbs
to South Georgia since 2003. I am required by the banks to take a photo of a
business's sinage,business license, inventory, sales floor and sales counter
including cash register and credit card terminal.

ONLY ONE TIME DID I EVER HAVE ISSUES and that was in Columbus Georgia where I
was "required" to call the management office to make an appointment, provide
information about me and my "employer" (I am not an employee I am an independent
contractor), verify appointment with business that is leasing in the mall AND
have a mall security person present at the time that I would take photographs.
Then the mall cop was supposed to "approve" all photos! This meant I would give
the mall cop my camera so he can look at the photos and delete what he felt was
not acceptable.

HELL NO I did not allow some fat ass mall cop to take my digital camera and view
any photos. I did SHOW him the photos I took while carefully selecting only the
photos of the business I was there to inspect. I had other business on that
camera and I wasn't about to allow anyone to access that confidential
information about other accounts and appointments I had that day. Of course the
mall cop had his authority complex and gave me grief about it. But he was about
5 foot 6 and 300 pounds. I'm a half a foot taller than he is and I weigh "a
little more" than he did. I also had a deeper voice, though I will never sound
like Barry White LOL.  IN other words, I started talking "mess" about as much as
the mall cop did toward me then I got the hell out of there.

I wasn't very professional about it. Their attitude was far worse. They talked
down to me like I was a child. "MS mall manager" couldn't have been older than
30 and her portly Barney Fife may have been closer to my age, which is a little
over 40, but I'll be dammed if I was going to accept the attitude these people
were giving me. I get access to nearby Fort Benning Military Base with less
grief than that mall in Columbus Georgia. And it just happened that a business
at the BX on Fort Benning was my next stop. If any place should be concerned
about someone taking photos on property you would think a military base would.
But only in secured areas that you wouldn't have access to anyway. Not the
retail center on Fort Benning.

Well I never heard anything about my returned rudeness to the mall cop or the
idiot manager who dared to call me by my first name while introducing herself as
"ms" whatever. You do NOT play that with me. It's condensending and rude to
assume that you can address me by my first name if I cannot address you the
same. You are managing a mall. It doesn't make you special. She should be more
concerned about filling up vacant retail space within her mall she wanted to
control photographs of.

I wonder do these people harass all of the teenage brats with camera cell phones
as much as these clowns did to someone like me who was doing his job? If so, its
no wonder  most of these malls are dying or dead.

So that was my ONLY bad Mall cop/mall management experience. Thank you for the
chance to vent. And I haven't had a reason to return to that mall since.

(no offense intended with my expression)

Mall cops, and mall management in my example suffer from what I call
"badge-itis"  They develop some self important superiority complex that makes
them think they can treat people like crap and expect everyone they think is
"beneath" them to kiss their ass. Sorry but I am not an ass kisser. I am a nice
and polite person until "badge-itis" kicks in. And I will squash it like like a
roach.

What are they going to do, kick me out of a mall that I rarely shop in anyway?


--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Road Warrior" <jct5jet@...> wrote:
>
> Yesterday, I had a very nasty run in with mall cops at a particular mall in
TN.  This mall I had put off a very long time previously even though I had
passed it multiple times.  Needless to say, I did not finish it, but their
behavior was inexcusable.  They were very threatening in their demeanor treating
me like I was stealing merchandise or planning on doing harm to their structure
(as if taking pictures of a court area or department store entrance would
release deadly radiation).
>
> This mall was also recently put on the infamous "dead mall" list though it
seemed no worse for wear than before.  I was very pissed at their attitude and
was rude back to them before storming out of the place, though I gave them no
possibility that I would delete those photos.  The guy acted like a wannabe
prison warden or some pumped up ex-military that obviously needed to go back. 
In the future, I may even encourage people to boycott this place, because my
treatment was extremely poor.  They literally followed me out to the parking
lot.  No instance have I ever had that harsh of treatment.
>
> Any of you others had bad trouble with mall cops?  I am usually good about
avoiding them, but this time this little dump was dripping with them and there
wasn't enough people in there for them to have enough to do anyway.
>

Few people like to discuss this, but a foundation of malls' appeal has long been
security. They caught on at a time when traditional downtown business districts
were perceived as becoming less safe. They're heyday was during the period when
urban crime was increasing in much of the country. They started to die when
suburbs were no longer what they were in the 50s. Malls tend to die very quickly
when well-publicized incidents of violence take place. There's always been crime
at malls---mostly shoplifting by locals, drug dealing, the occasional car theft
and petty vandalism, as well as the occasional fight or rumble but it usually
stays out of the news.

Security is a mall's last gasp at trying to be itself. It should be no surprise
that the security guards get sillier the less there is to a to a mall. At that
point, mall management is probably less concerned with real security than with
someone publicizing just how dead their mall really is. These are probably not
the best paying or highest status guard gigs. One guy I knew who did this for
awhile was a moonlighting cop--he was later fired from his suburban police force
for sexual harrassment. Having grown up with him, I'd wondered by that town had
been dumb enough to hire him in the first place.

--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, Edina Nikovic <ladyphenom666@...>
wrote:
>
>
> A few years ago while on a road trip, I stopped at an obviously dead mall
somewhere in southern Illinois. I was with my parents so as my mother and I were
walking around, I was snapping photos of some of the empty storefronts. I saw
the security cop talking to someone and when I was snapping for a while and she
never noticed. Though I was trying to be discreet. Eventually, she saw me and
came up to me and asked me in a neutral, but kind of uninteresting tone to stop
taking photos. Never said why or really much else. I didn't fight her or
anything. I just said I would stop and delete the photos. I didn't stop and I
didn't delete anything. I continued on as she turned around.
>  
> It's hard for me, because I have a blog so I try to take pictures all around,
not just of malls. On top of that I'm a woman so if I am not with someone, I
always get weird looks, particularly from men. I have a close male friend who
takes similar snapshots and as far as I know he's never been bothered. I don't
let it get to me and I am usually careful and move on and I am rarely ever
scared or harrassed. That all changed a couple of months ago when with a friend
I was trying to snap a photo of this small, seemingly abandoned kitschy looking
building out in the suburbs. Next thing I now some guy with a suit and a
European accent pulls up in a car and is just staring at me which made me very
uncomfortable. He then asked me why I was taking a photo, who it was for and
blah, blah, blah. This building was no Sears Tower or even anything noteworthy,
It had probably been an old gas station or something commercial. He would not
stop staring me down until I
>  left. I gave up, went back to the person who was with me waiting in my car
and drove off. I was left perplexed as to what the big deal was. I didn't get
it, especially since the building looked like it was sitting there empty.
Another time snapping photos of homes in a neighborhood nearby, this guy comes
out of his back door, which scared me when I heard him talk to me from behind. I
thought he was going to scream at me, but we ended up chatting after I explained
what I was doing, he joked about it and let me carry on.
>  
> Most times I'm left scratching my head as to why people are so concerned
especially since we live in a society where there are video cameras everywhere,
cameras on cell phones and the latest version of the Ipod touch, street Google
snapping shots all over the place. Really? What is the big deal if you want to
snap photos of empty storefronts? I could understand a homeowner being concerned
but commercial buildings, what's the problem? I could understand if it was
something substantial or significant but most of the stuff I photograph is none
of the above so I don't understand the sudden paranoia.
>  
> It sucks what happened to you and I have to be honest after I had
that last horrible encounter, I was ready to quit with the photography. I try
not to do it do it alone at all now that's for sure. 
>
> --- On Sun, 11/22/09, Road Warrior <jct5jet@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Road Warrior <jct5jet@...>
> Subject: [remembering_retail] Mall cops
> To: remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 12:41 AM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Yesterday, I had a very nasty run in with mall cops at a particular mall in
TN. This mall I had put off a very long time previously even though I had passed
it multiple times. Needless to say, I did not finish it, but their behavior was
inexcusable. They were very threatening in their demeanor treating me like I was
stealing merchandise or planning on doing harm to their structure (as if taking
pictures of a court area or department store entrance would release deadly
radiation).
>
> This mall was also recently put on the infamous "dead mall" list though it
seemed no worse for wear than before. I was very pissed at their attitude and
was rude back to them before storming out of the place, though I gave them no
possibility that I would delete those photos. The guy acted like a wannabe
prison warden or some pumped up ex-military that obviously needed to go back. In
the future, I may even encourage people to boycott this place, because my
treatment was extremely poor. They literally followed me out to the parking lot.
No instance have I ever had that harsh of treatment.
>
> Any of you others had bad trouble with mall cops? I am usually good about
avoiding them, but this time this little dump was dripping with them and there
wasn't enough people in there for them to have enough to do anyway.
>

Of course, considering all of this I wonder how long I need to wait and under
what time/circumstances I need to go back.  I did not get adequate photos, and
that dump was dripping in mall cops as if it was ghetto haven or something.  I
wish someone would sit down and jerk them around a bit reminding them that
people would like to have something to remember places by besides a press
release.

As I've said before, the authorities in society don't want you to get a
worthwhile photo.  They want to limit you to stupid family/friend photos and
pictures of flowers...as long as it's nowhere interesting.  Why buy an expensive
camera for that?  I sure wish a lot more photos existed of these older malls,
but the big bulky cameras of the day made that extremely difficult.  It seems
what few exist were only caught at the mall's bitter end.

It's so funny how some malls seem to have little security around and I have no
problem while others seem to be so ridiculous.  I've walked through some premier
shopping malls finding maybe one mall cop in a mall while some second tier mall
acted like just being there and acting like you were having a good time was a
crime.  I of course left (last thing I wanted was to have to deal with the real
cops), but the look on their face reminded me of middle/high school when you
said something to piss off a bully and they treated it like a confession that
you had slept with their girlfriend.

--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "davidmcgrann" <d.mcgrann@...> wrote:
>
>
> I've never completely understood the "no pictures" rule, though I can
understand that there could be possible security concerns on the part of the
property owners and/or tenants. It's not a new thing - I was stopped from taking
pictures inside a department store when I was a kid, about 40 years ago.
>
> I've had a couple of jobs in the commercial real estate lednig field that
involved property inspections. In one we were doing due diligence before we
decided whether or not to buy the property or the loan secured by the property
(usually these were distressed properties or nonperforming loans). With those
inspections, the tenants or even the property owner didn't know what we were
doing nor were they going to be told what we were doing because of
confidentiality agreements. All of the inspections had to be done
surreptitiously and getting interior pictures was tough, if not impossible.
>
> In the second job we serviced commercial mortgages that all had property
inspection provisions. Our inspectors contacted the borrower and made
arrangements to visit the property and take pictures and make notes from the
roof to the boiler room. From time to time, we';d run into a problem tenant (a
Shaw's supermarket comes to mind) that would not cooperate. However, we could
default the loan and the owner could default the lease with the tenant under
their lease terms for refusing an inspection, so a little explaining of the
circumstances made everyone "see the light".
>
> I don't particularly care if I'm approached by a mall cop who's being
unreasonable. I figure that if if they're going to get that bent out of shape
it's best just go get the hell out of there and do what they say. It's not worth
fighting a battle with an unreasonable person who may be armed or at least
carrying Mace or a nightstick. Let karma take care of them and escape with your
own head intact.
>

I've never completely understood the "no pictures" rule, though I can understand
that there could be possible security concerns on the part of the property
owners and/or tenants. It's not a new thing - I was stopped from taking pictures
inside a department store when I was a kid, about 40 years ago.

I've had a couple of jobs in the commercial real estate lednig field that
involved property inspections. In one we were doing due diligence before we
decided whether or not to buy the property or the loan secured by the property
(usually these were distressed properties or nonperforming loans). With those
inspections, the tenants or even the property owner didn't know what we were
doing nor were they going to be told what we were doing because of
confidentiality agreements. All of the inspections had to be done
surreptitiously and getting interior pictures was tough, if not impossible.

In the second job we serviced commercial mortgages that all had property
inspection provisions. Our inspectors contacted the borrower and made
arrangements to visit the property and take pictures and make notes from the
roof to the boiler room. From time to time, we';d run into a problem tenant (a
Shaw's supermarket comes to mind) that would not cooperate. However, we could
default the loan and the owner could default the lease with the tenant under
their lease terms for refusing an inspection, so a little explaining of the
circumstances made everyone "see the light".

I don't particularly care if I'm approached by a mall cop who's being
unreasonable. I figure that if if they're going to get that bent out of shape
it's best just go get the hell out of there and do what they say. It's not worth
fighting a battle with an unreasonable person who may be armed or at least
carrying Mace or a nightstick. Let karma take care of them and escape with your
own head intact.

I remember being stopped by security at Euclid Square Mall (Euclid, OH) years
ago...but I was stopped as I was taking my last picture before leaving the
parking lot.  I explained to the "mall cop" that I was taking them for a
website.  I did leave, since my photo shoot was finished.  I later posted the
photos to my "Ohio Grocery" MSN group.  A few years later, Euclid Square Mall
changed hands, an "outlet mall" concept, centered arould a furniture store set
up in the former May Company anchor, opened and later closed.  At that time, I
was asked by the new mall management to take down my photos, saying that they
were detrimental to the marketing of the mall.  Rather than risk legal action, I
took down the photos.  Eventually that "outlet mall" concept failed, and the
mall still sits vacant, except for a Dillard's outlet store.  I also took photos
of Northland Mall in Columbus before it was demolished, and North Towne Mall in
Toledo, which I still have those photos on Ohio Grocery (which is on Multiply
now.)  I wasn't caught at those two malls, since I hid the camera in a shopping
bag and kept watch for "mall cops" before taking my pictures, which I did
without using a flash.  I know that Randall Park Mall "mall cops" tend to be
very hard on those attempting to take photos inside their mall.  I remember
reading a "letter to the editor" in the Cleveland Free Times (now Scene)
regarding a couple who took pictures inside Randall Park Mall and was asked to
leave the mall by a "mall cop" who didn't like the idea of them taking photos. 
Even the owners/management of "dead malls" remain overprotective of their
properties.

--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Road Warrior" <jct5jet@...> wrote:
>
> Yesterday, I had a very nasty run in with mall cops at a particular mall in
TN.  This mall I had put off a very long time previously even though I had
passed it multiple times.  Needless to say, I did not finish it, but their
behavior was inexcusable.  They were very threatening in their demeanor treating
me like I was stealing merchandise or planning on doing harm to their structure
(as if taking pictures of a court area or department store entrance would
release deadly radiation).
>
> This mall was also recently put on the infamous "dead mall" list though it
seemed no worse for wear than before.  I was very pissed at their attitude and
was rude back to them before storming out of the place, though I gave them no
possibility that I would delete those photos.  The guy acted like a wannabe
prison warden or some pumped up ex-military that obviously needed to go back. 
In the future, I may even encourage people to boycott this place, because my
treatment was extremely poor.  They literally followed me out to the parking
lot.  No instance have I ever had that harsh of treatment.
>
> Any of you others had bad trouble with mall cops?  I am usually good about
avoiding them, but this time this little dump was dripping with them and there
wasn't enough people in there for them to have enough to do anyway.
>

Yesterday, I had a very nasty run in with mall cops at a particular mall in TN. 
This mall I had put off a very long time previously even though I had passed it
multiple times.  Needless to say, I did not finish it, but their behavior was
inexcusable.  They were very threatening in their demeanor treating me like I
was stealing merchandise or planning on doing harm to their structure (as if
taking pictures of a court area or department store entrance would release
deadly radiation).

This mall was also recently put on the infamous "dead mall" list though it
seemed no worse for wear than before.  I was very pissed at their attitude and
was rude back to them before storming out of the place, though I gave them no
possibility that I would delete those photos.  The guy acted like a wannabe
prison warden or some pumped up ex-military that obviously needed to go back. 
In the future, I may even encourage people to boycott this place, because my
treatment was extremely poor.  They literally followed me out to the parking
lot.  No instance have I ever had that harsh of treatment.

Any of you others had bad trouble with mall cops?  I am usually good about
avoiding them, but this time this little dump was dripping with them and there
wasn't enough people in there for them to have enough to do anyway.

Last week I went down to Jacksonville, Florida for Wheel of Fortune tryouts. The
motel I stayed at was only a few blocks from the former Phillips/Market Square
Mall (which I took a few pictures of; you'll see those whenever I get around to
it). This was a rather small outdoor mall, maybe in the 300 to 400K range at the
most. I could tell that there were four anchors: a mid-sized one at the north, a
big, two story one in the middle, another one behind that, and a junior anchor
to the south. It looks like the anchors were Montgomery Ward (the big, two-story
one), Jefferson Ward (later Sam's Club), Food Fair (was this the north anchor?)
and Woolworth, which I think was later an Oshman's.

Does anyone know anything else about this mall? Which anchors were where?

I also wanted to point out #7.  The world's first air cargo shipment was
arranged by Morehouse-Martens.  Sounds like a marketing gimmick, but a great
one, at that.  Those old retailers sure knew how to be hucksters.




--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Dirty H" <dirtyharry_callahan@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Ken D" <kendillard66@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Allied Stores had several chains... Morehouse-Marten of Columbus, OH
>
> From the Columbus Library ... includes links to photos.  The facade
> photos in #3 are pretty cool
>
> http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/fullimage.cfm?photo_id=4950&thumb\
> nail=272M8381955%5Fthm%2Ejpg&startrow=1&searchlist=MOREHOUSE&searchindex\
> =P&searchtype=S&b_type=B&hits=7&sgender=&sfdate=&stdate=&original_search\
> =morehouse
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/fullimage.cfm?photo_id=4950&thum\
> bnail=272M8381955%5Fthm%2Ejpg&startrow=1&searchlist=MOREHOUSE&searchinde\
> x=P&searchtype=S&b_type=B&hits=7&sgender=&sfdate=&stdate=&original_searc\
> h=morehouse>
>
>
>   [Save Record]
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/saverec.cfm?save_id=3928>
>
> 1.
>
>   [Martens, Charles Richardson (4/4/1860-1/1/1920)]
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/fullimage_alt.cfm?photo_id=3928&\
> thumbnail=00004050_1_thm.jpg>
>
>
>
> Name: Martens, Charles Richardson (4/4/1860-1/1/1920)   Caption: Charles
> Richardson Martens came to Columbus in 1881 to his brother's firm
> Weisman and Martens. He founded the Home Store in 1892 which became
> Morehouse Martens in 1907.  Notes: Morehouse Martens became Morehouse
> Martens Fashion in 1950. It later became the Fashion in 1963. In 1968 it
> closed when the Union Store moved into its location at 130 S. High St.
> Occupation: Businessman
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/browseresults.cfm?searchlist=Bus\
> inessman&searchindex=Oc&b_type=B>
>     More Details/Photos
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/photodetail.cfm?photo_id=3928&se\
> archtype=S&searchindex=P&searchlist=MOREHOUSE&hits=7&startrow=1&b_type=B\
> &sgender=&sfdate=&stdate=&original_search=morehouse>
>
>   [Save Record]
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/saverec.cfm?save_id=3976>
>
> 2.
>
>   [Mohler, John H.]
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/fullimage_alt.cfm?photo_id=3976&\
> thumbnail=00004098_1_thm.jpg>
>
>
>
> Name: Mohler, John H.   Caption: John H. Mohler and his partners took
> over Halm, Bellows and Butler, (a dry goods store) founded in 1890 and
> renamed it McAlllister Mohler Co. It became Morehouse Fashion 9/24/1951
> and the Fashion 1963-8.  Notes: Columbus address: 212 N. Washington Ave.
> Occupation: Businessman
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/browseresults.cfm?searchlist=Bus\
> inessman&searchindex=Oc&b_type=B>
>     More Details/Photos
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/photodetail.cfm?photo_id=3976&se\
> archtype=S&searchindex=P&searchlist=MOREHOUSE&hits=7&startrow=1&b_type=B\
> &sgender=&sfdate=&stdate=&original_search=morehouse>
>
>   [Save Record]
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/saverec.cfm?save_id=4950>
>
> 3.
>
>   [Morehouse Fashion]
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/fullimage_alt.cfm?photo_id=4950&\
> thumbnail=272M8381955_thm.jpg>
>
>
>
> Name: Morehouse Fashion   Caption: Morehouse Fashion, a major competitor
> to Lazarus Department Store.  Notes: Moved to this site on 5/31/1921.
> Fashion merged with Morehouse Martens on 12/26/1950. Closed as the
> Fashion 5/20/1982. Burned as the Halles Store on 4/24/1986.  Address:
> 130 High St S   Building Type: Business and Industry
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/browseresults.cfm?searchlist=Bus\
> iness%20and%20Industry&searchindex=T&b_type=B>   Subject(s): Business
> and Industry
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/browseresults.cfm?searchlist=Bus\
> iness%20and%20Industry&searchindex=S&b_type=B>
>     More Details/Photos
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/photodetail.cfm?photo_id=4950&se\
> archtype=S&searchindex=P&searchlist=MOREHOUSE&hits=7&startrow=1&b_type=B\
> &sgender=&sfdate=&stdate=&original_search=morehouse>
>
>   [Save Record]
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/saverec.cfm?save_id=3987>
>
> 4.
>
>   [Morehouse, Max (10/15/1865-2/4/1923)]
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/fullimage_alt.cfm?photo_id=3987&\
> thumbnail=00004110_1_thm.jpg>
>
>
>
> Name: Morehouse, Max (10/15/1865-2/4/1923)   Caption: Max Morehouse
> founded Morehouse and Starr in 1889 and Morehouse and Beese in 1893. He
> came to Columbus from Elyria in 1899 and co-founded Bowlands, Morehouse
> and Martens, which became Morehouse Martens Fashion on 12/26/1950. It
> was finally known as The Fashion 1963-4/1968.  Notes: Mr Morehouse
> arranged for the first air freight cargo delivery in world history on
> 11/7/1910. Bolts of silk cloth were flown to the Columbus Driving Park
> Occupation: Businessman
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/browseresults.cfm?searchlist=Bus\
> inessman&searchindex=Oc&b_type=B>
>     More Details/Photos
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/photodetail.cfm?photo_id=3987&se\
> archtype=S&searchindex=P&searchlist=MOREHOUSE&hits=7&startrow=1&b_type=B\
> &sgender=&sfdate=&stdate=&original_search=morehouse>
>
>   [Save Record]
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/saverec.cfm?save_id=2871>
>
> 5.
>
>   [South High Street looking north from Town Street]
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/fullimage_alt.cfm?photo_id=2871&\
> thumbnail=00002976_1_thm.jpg>
>
>
>
> Name: South High Street looking north from Town Street   Caption: In the
> Town & High Street area: Morehouse Martens, #130-140 and F&R Lazarus
> Co., 129-161 South High Street, were friendly department store
> competitors.  Notes: The new facade of the Morehouse Martens Store
> (building with flag) opened at 130-140 S. High Street, 5/31/1921.
> Subject(s): Street Scenes-High Street South
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/browseresults.cfm?searchlist=Str\
> eet%20Scenes%2DHigh%20Street%20South&searchindex=S&b_type=B>
>     More Details/Photos
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/photodetail.cfm?photo_id=2871&se\
> archtype=S&searchindex=P&searchlist=MOREHOUSE&hits=7&startrow=1&b_type=B\
> &sgender=&sfdate=&stdate=&original_search=morehouse>
>
>   [Save Record]
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/saverec.cfm?save_id=2847>
>
> 6.
>
>   [South High Street looking northeast from Town Street]
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/fullimage_alt.cfm?photo_id=2847&\
> thumbnail=00002952_1_thm.jpg>
>
>
>
> Name: South High Street looking northeast from Town Street   Caption:
> Christmas decorations lure shoppers to the Fashion Company, 122 S. High
> and Morehouse Martens, 130-140 S. High Street.  Subject(s): Street
> Scenes-High Street South
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/browseresults.cfm?searchlist=Str\
> eet%20Scenes%2DHigh%20Street%20South&searchindex=S&b_type=B>
>     More Details/Photos
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/photodetail.cfm?photo_id=2847&se\
> archtype=S&searchindex=P&searchlist=MOREHOUSE&hits=7&startrow=1&b_type=B\
> &sgender=&sfdate=&stdate=&original_search=morehouse>
>
>   [Save Record]
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/saverec.cfm?save_id=5115>
>
> 7.
>
>   [World's first air cargo freight flight arriving at Columbus Driving
> Park on November 7, 1910]
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/fullimage_alt.cfm?photo_id=5115&\
> thumbnail=088d782191001_thm.jpg>
>
>
>
> Name: World's first air cargo freight flight arriving at Columbus
> Driving Park on November 7, 1910   Notes: Max Morehouse of the Home
> Store (later Morehouse Martens Fashion Co) and famed aviator Roy
> Knabenshue greet pilot Philip O Parmalee on his arrival at the Columbus
> Driving Park race track on his arrival with two bolts of silk cloth from
> Dayton. The silk was known as R & T Pluvette Salome silk and was made
> into men's neckties and sample swatches attached to postcards.     More
> Details/Photos
> <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/photodetail.cfm?photo_id=5115&se\
> archtype=S&searchindex=P&searchlist=MOREHOUSE&hits=7&startrow=1&b_type=B\
> &sgender=&sfdate=&stdate=&original_search=morehouse>
>
> Search Again? <http://www.columbuslibrary.org/cmlohio/photohome.cfm>
> --- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Ken D" <kendillard66@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Allied Stores had several chains... Morehouse-Marten of Columbus, OH
>

Ken, here's something interesting about Max Morehouse--I ran a search on his daughter (doubtful she is still alive):

1.  ZETTLER, MARTHA M

Associated names:
MOREHOUSE, MARTHA
Age 106  

FORT LAUDERDALE, FL
COLUMBUS, OH
  ZETTLER, RAYMOND J (age 101)
ZETTLER, R J

This is just an educated guess, but I bet she married into the Zettler family which has operated hardware stores in this area since the mid-1800's.  Nice to know they didn't squander their wealth and can still afford to endow a chair!!!

1.

ZETTLER, MARTHA M Associated names: MOREHOUSE, MARTHA

106

FORT LAUDERDALE, FL COLUMBUS, OH

ZETTLER, RAYMOND J (age 101) ZETTLER, R J

1.

ZETTLER, MARTHA M Associated names: MOREHOUSE, MARTHA

106

FORT LAUDERDALE, FL COLUMBUS, OH

ZETTLER, RAYMOND J (age 101) ZETTLER, R J

The Morehouse name lives on!!!

Arnab Chakravarti, MD
The Max Morehouse Chair in Cancer Research
Arnab Chakravarti, MD, arrived at Ohio State earlier this year from Harvard
Medical School, assuming the positions of professor and chair of the Department
of Radiation Medicine. He is a member of the Experimental Therapeutics program
at Ohio State's Comprehensive Cancer Center. He has published more than 60
articles and book chapters and has delivered numerous distinguished lectureships
on the molecular mechanisms of radiation resistance in gliomas and prostate
cancer.

Namesake: The Max Morehouse Chair in Cancer Research was established in 2000 by
Martha Morehouse to honor her father Max, who died in 1923. A retail business
owner, he opened the department store Rowland, Morehouse and Martens Co. in
1899, which was renamed Morehouse-Martens in 1908. Mr. Morehouse is recognized
by the Ohio Historical Society for commissioning the first commercial
air-freight in the history of modern flight when he hired a pilot to fly a bolt
of silk fabric from Dayton to Columbus in 1910.



--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Ken D" <kendillard66@...> wrote:
>
> Allied Stores had several chains to shutter before the merger with Federated.
While Cain-Sloan and Joske's were sold to Dillard's, and Miller's/Miller Bros
and Miller and Rhoads were primarily sold to Hess', these apparently closed or
were consolidated into the better known banners during the post-war era.
Evidently the Bon-Ton was spun off as its own chain at some point as it is
listed as part of Allied in a 1944 publication. In addition to the well known
Seattle Bon Marche, there was a Lowell, MA store of the same name. Pomeroy's,
which I had heard of, is listed as four different opertions, the better known
Harrisburg, PA store, and lesser known operations out of Pottsville,
Wilkes-Barre, and Reading, PA were evidently operated by different family
members. St.Paul had The Golden Rule while Donaldson's was in Minneapolis. Pecks
of Kansas City, Heer's of Springfield, MO, Herpolsheimer's of Grand Rapids, MI,
Rollman's of Cincinnati, Gertz of Jamaica, NY(Queens), Morehouse-Marten of
Columbus, OH, Polsky's of Akron are among a few of the lesser known chains.
>
> I'm assuming that Allied was much like Mercantile Stores in having many
department stores that were dominant in smaller markets and third of fourth tier
in primary markets. There are several Mercantile Store operations that were
eliminated before the Dillard's merger as well. Glass Block of Duluth, MN and
DeLendrecie's of Fargo, ND. Root's is another banner which I'm not familiar. Was
this the Terre Haute, IN department store?
>
>
>
> --- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Road Warrior" <jct5jet@> wrote:
> >
> > I think everybody has at least a few local department stores in their state
that died off, many that those of us under 35 likely no absolutely nothing
about.  For me, I am most curious to find out a few details about some stores in
GA that disappeared in the 1980's.  Specifically, does anybody know about
Cullum's of Augusta or Levy's of Savannah?  I'm also a bit curious about
Meyers-Arnold of Greenville and Tapp's of Columbia, SC.  Basically, I am
wondering where in all they were located, what kind of stores they were, etc.  I
am asking because I am trying to work with a couple people to get information on
another lost store (including trying to contact the living descendant of the
founder).
> >
> > Also, I'd like to hear some details of some of the other lost department
stores in your state...the names, when they existed and what kinds of stores
they were (comparing to Kohl's, Macy's or Nordstrom).  I think in this blitz of
retail blogs that the small scale old line department stores overall have not
been covered very well...partly due to lack of easily available information and
difficulty of traveling to the cities to get it.
> >
>

Miller & Rhoads was sold by Allied to a group of private investors in 1987.  To
my knowledge, none of its stores ever became Hess's after it went out of
business in 1990, though several became Hecht's stores, and others were turned
into Value City, Stone & Thomas and Montgomery Ward stores.

--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Ken D" <kendillard66@...> wrote:
>
> Allied Stores had several chains to shutter before the merger with Federated.
While Cain-Sloan and Joske's were sold to Dillard's, and Miller's/Miller Bros
and Miller and Rhoads were primarily sold to Hess', these apparently closed or
were consolidated into the better known banners during the post-war era.
Evidently the Bon-Ton was spun off as its own chain at some point as it is
listed as part of Allied in a 1944 publication. In addition to the well known
Seattle Bon Marche, there was a Lowell, MA store of the same name. Pomeroy's,
which I had heard of, is listed as four different opertions, the better known
Harrisburg, PA store, and lesser known operations out of Pottsville,
Wilkes-Barre, and Reading, PA were evidently operated by different family
members. St.Paul had The Golden Rule while Donaldson's was in Minneapolis. Pecks
of Kansas City, Heer's of Springfield, MO, Herpolsheimer's of Grand Rapids, MI,
Rollman's of Cincinnati, Gertz of Jamaica, NY(Queens), Morehouse-Marten of
Columbus, OH, Polsky's of Akron are among a few of the lesser known chains.
>
> I'm assuming that Allied was much like Mercantile Stores in having many
department stores that were dominant in smaller markets and third of fourth tier
in primary markets. There are several Mercantile Store operations that were
eliminated before the Dillard's merger as well. Glass Block of Duluth, MN and
DeLendrecie's of Fargo, ND. Root's is another banner which I'm not familiar. Was
this the Terre Haute, IN department store?
>
>
>
> --- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Road Warrior" <jct5jet@> wrote:
> >
> > I think everybody has at least a few local department stores in their state
that died off, many that those of us under 35 likely no absolutely nothing
about.  For me, I am most curious to find out a few details about some stores in
GA that disappeared in the 1980's.  Specifically, does anybody know about
Cullum's of Augusta or Levy's of Savannah?  I'm also a bit curious about
Meyers-Arnold of Greenville and Tapp's of Columbia, SC.  Basically, I am
wondering where in all they were located, what kind of stores they were, etc.  I
am asking because I am trying to work with a couple people to get information on
another lost store (including trying to contact the living descendant of the
founder).
> >
> > Also, I'd like to hear some details of some of the other lost department
stores in your state...the names, when they existed and what kinds of stores
they were (comparing to Kohl's, Macy's or Nordstrom).  I think in this blitz of
retail blogs that the small scale old line department stores overall have not
been covered very well...partly due to lack of easily available information and
difficulty of traveling to the cities to get it.
> >
>

Allied Stores had several chains to shutter before the merger with Federated.
While Cain-Sloan and Joske's were sold to Dillard's, and Miller's/Miller Bros
and Miller and Rhoads were primarily sold to Hess', these apparently closed or
were consolidated into the better known banners during the post-war era.
Evidently the Bon-Ton was spun off as its own chain at some point as it is
listed as part of Allied in a 1944 publication. In addition to the well known
Seattle Bon Marche, there was a Lowell, MA store of the same name. Pomeroy's,
which I had heard of, is listed as four different opertions, the better known
Harrisburg, PA store, and lesser known operations out of Pottsville,
Wilkes-Barre, and Reading, PA were evidently operated by different family
members. St.Paul had The Golden Rule while Donaldson's was in Minneapolis. Pecks
of Kansas City, Heer's of Springfield, MO, Herpolsheimer's of Grand Rapids, MI,
Rollman's of Cincinnati, Gertz of Jamaica, NY(Queens), Morehouse-Marten of
Columbus, OH, Polsky's of Akron are among a few of the lesser known chains.

I'm assuming that Allied was much like Mercantile Stores in having many
department stores that were dominant in smaller markets and third of fourth tier
in primary markets. There are several Mercantile Store operations that were
eliminated before the Dillard's merger as well. Glass Block of Duluth, MN and
DeLendrecie's of Fargo, ND. Root's is another banner which I'm not familiar. Was
this the Terre Haute, IN department store?



--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "Road Warrior" <jct5jet@...> wrote:
>
> I think everybody has at least a few local department stores in their state
that died off, many that those of us under 35 likely no absolutely nothing
about.  For me, I am most curious to find out a few details about some stores in
GA that disappeared in the 1980's.  Specifically, does anybody know about
Cullum's of Augusta or Levy's of Savannah?  I'm also a bit curious about
Meyers-Arnold of Greenville and Tapp's of Columbia, SC.  Basically, I am
wondering where in all they were located, what kind of stores they were, etc.  I
am asking because I am trying to work with a couple people to get information on
another lost store (including trying to contact the living descendant of the
founder).
>
> Also, I'd like to hear some details of some of the other lost department
stores in your state...the names, when they existed and what kinds of stores
they were (comparing to Kohl's, Macy's or Nordstrom).  I think in this blitz of
retail blogs that the small scale old line department stores overall have not
been covered very well...partly due to lack of easily available information and
difficulty of traveling to the cities to get it.
>

--- In remembering_retail@yahoogroups.com, "thebuckguy" <thebuckguy@...> wrote:
>
> One of S&H's other major investments was in a store in Grand Rapids (can't
remember which one), but they didn't take a controlling staket there.

Wurzburg's.

I know Carter's Supermarket here in Michigan revived the S&H Greenpoints version
in the 2000s.