The fact is that in Anwar-e-Khilafat  and A'ina-i-Sadaqat, Hazrat
Khalifatul Masih did not at all say that the non-Ahmadis, by their
rejection of the Promised Messiah, had thrown themselves outside the
apparent outward fold of Islam.

In Anwar-i-Khilafat, there is an expression that we should not take
the non-Ahmadis to be Muslims. But it does not mean that we have
rejected the idea of taking them as Muslims even as far as the outward
form is concerned. Otherwise, expressions of this kind, in their
limited sense and meaning, have often been used by the Promised
Messiah himself. For instance take the following quotations:

"It is a firm proposition in the Hadith that where a man says in
regard to a momin that he is a kafir, the man who says this, himself
he becomes a kafir. So in my case, when nearly 200 maulvis have
declared that I am a kafir ; and they applied a fatwa of kufr on me;
and when, on the basis of their own fatwa it stands established that
he who says in regard to a real momin that he has become a kafir, he
himself thereby, becomes a kafir, the remedy in such cases is easy. If
the rest of the people have even a grain of honesty and iman, and if
they are not mere hypocrites, they should come forward and denounce
these maulvis, and their fatwa against me, name by name, in a big
poster, and declare that they had all become kafirs, because they had
said in regard to a momin that he was a kafir. When they have
publicly, and quite openly disassociated themselves from this unjust
fatwa, I shall readily take them as Muslims - provided in their action
there is no trace of hypocrisy, and provided they do not seek to term
as false open and obvious signs and miracles." (Haqiqatul Wahyi, page 165)

Now please think very seriously here. Although the Promised Messiah in
this passage does not take the non-Ahmadis to be Muslims, you
interpret the general sense of the passage to mean that there is here
no denial involved of the fact that outwardly they still remain formal
Muslims, so to say, then what is the difficulty in holding that
precisely this, and no more is the sense and meaning of the passages
under reference from Anwar-i-Khilafat and A'ina-i-Sadaqat ? In this
case, too, there is no intention to deny that outwardly, in any case,
such Muslims remained formal Muslims.

Now remains the specific passage in A'ina-i-Sadaqat. So it is to be
remembered that words of this kind, in Islam, have been used in two
meanings. One meaning is to say that the person in question is a
non-Muslim. The second is that the person in question is alien to the
real spirit of Islam, and he has fallen a victim to a serious error in
belief. This is what the Holy Prophet Muhammad, himself, has to say on
the point:

"Where a man sallies forth to give support to an unjust person,
knowing that he is unjust, the supporter, thereby, throws himself
outside the bounds of Islam."

__________________________________________________
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The Eclipse? - Doubts removed!
Introduction

The coming of a great Divine Reformer in the Latter Days has been
predicted in the holy scriptures of various religions. I propose to
discuss a very remarkable prophecy made by our lord and master, the
Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, which
helps a seeker after truth in recognizing the promised reformer.
According to this prophecy, lunar and solar eclipses on the specified
dates of the month of Ramazan would serve as Signs of his advent. For
more details of this sign check out this article on the Internet:

"The advent of the promised Mahdi and the lunar and solar eclipses"
Link: http://www.alislam.org/library/sign.html

The purpose of this article is to bring to light the true facts
regarding this Sign and negate the doubts created by Mr. Rashid Ali,
of the Anti-Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam on on his web page.

Hazrat Ali bin Umar Albaghdadi Ad-Darqutni, an eminent authority on
Hadees, who lived from 918 to 995 of Christian Era (306 to 385 Hijri),
had recorded of the following Hadees narrated by Hazrat Imam Baqar
Muhammad bin Ali, son of Hazrat Imam Zainul Abedeen (may Allah have
mercy on them):

"For our Mahdi, there are two signs. Since the birth of Universe,
these events have never taken place. Those two signs are that there
will be Lunar Eclipse on the first night of Ramadhan and Solar Eclipse
in the middle of Ramadhan." (Dar-e-Qatni, vol 1 p.188)

(As translated and presented by Mr. Rashid Ali in his article
Shaddad's Lost Paradise.)

The hadith is recorded by Hazrat Ali bin Umar Albaghdadi Ad-Darqutni
in Sunan Darqutni, Kitabul eidain, Chapter: salat-ul-kasoof-ul khasoof
wa haitahuma.

These Signs are mentioned in the collections of Hadees of both Sunni
and Shia sects. Eminent Muslim scholars have been quoting these Signs
in their books. This prophecy is recorded in several scholarly texts,
some of them are mentioned below:

1. Fatawa Hadisiya, Allama Sheikh Ahmad Shahabuddin Ibn Hijrul Haismi.

2. Ikmal-ud-din

3. Beharul Anwar

4. Hejajul Kirama by Nawab Siddeeq Hassan Khan.

5. Maktoobaat-e-Imam Rabbani Mujaddid Alf-e-Sani

6. Qiyamat Nama Farsi by Hazrat Shah Rafeeuddin Muhaddis of Delhi.

7. Aqaedul Islam by Maulana Abdul Haq Muhaddis of Delhi.

8. Iqtirabus Saa't by Nawab Sideeq Hassan Khan.

9. Ahwalul Akhirat by Hafiz Muhammad of Lakhoke.

Only the name of a very few books/authors are mentioned here for
brevity. For complete reference with original words check out an Urdu
thesis on the same topic online. It's chapter no. 8 contains 22
references from the Islamic books of the different sects of Islam.

Doubts about the Sign

Many doubts have been created in the simple minds of people ragarding
this sign. The aim of this article is to enlighten the respected
reader with the true facts.

First Doubt

The first doubt which has been created by Mr. Rashid Ali, in the first
part of this article, is:

"The tradition mentioned above is a quotation of Imam Mohammed al
Baqir bin 'Ali and not the Hadith of Holy Prophet Mohammed SAAW."

Reply:

1. Imam Dar-e-Qatni has written this so-called quotation as Hadith in
his book. Why?

2. This was a tradition of Ahl-e-Bait that they, because of their own
personality and character, did not deem it necessary to mention all
the narrators of the tradition till the Holy Prophet (pbuh). This is
why there are hundreds of Ahadith published by the Shias that they do
not contain the chain of narrators. Nor do they contain the words that
"Holy Prophet (pbuh) said this".

3. If this was not the Hadeeth then why have Islamic scholars have
been mentioning it since ancient times in their books as Hadeeth?

Second Doubt

In Rashid Ali's article he writes:

"For the last several centuries, Islamic Scholars of Hadiths
(muhadditheens) have always maintained that the two narrators, 'Amr
and Jabir, of this tradition are known to be liars. This tradition is
therefore not to be relied upon." [3]

Reply:

1. If it was so then why did Imam Abul Hassan Dar Qutni record it in
his book?

2. Secondly, which Islamic Scholar has doubted its validity and in
what reference?

3. Why did so many Islamic Scholar not know of such thing, and mention
it in their books as a valid and authentic Hadith. Refer to chapter 8
of Khasoof-o-Kasoof ka nishan (Urdu).

4. When the prophecy contained in this Hadeeth has been fulfilled then
how can one now doubt its authenticity? When the truth has become
clear by the fulfillment of the prophecy itself!

5. If this principle is not correct, then how can you accept the
prophecies mentioned in the Bible (which have been fulfilled in the
self of Holy Prophet) When there is no proof of the authenticity of
those prophecies (as you believe that not everything found in Bible
today is the word of God)

6. Now there is no need for anyone to tell us whether this is Hadith
or not as the God Alimghty Himself has given His verdict by fulfilling
the Sign!

7. If you think that these are not the words of the Holy Prophet,
which means that these are the words of a liar, then you should take a
baiat of that person, whom you think is the originator of these words,
whose prophecy has become true now! But if you have any respect for
the Holy Prophet (pbuh) you can not attribute these words to any
person other than Holy Prophet (pbuh) whose truth has become clear now
with the fulfillment of this prophecy like day light!

Part 2 of this SHADDAD's LOST PARADISE only contains quotations from
the books of the Promised Messiah (as). Nothing has been said about
this heavenly Sign. Insha'Allah in another article, I'll expose a few
more lies of Mr. Rashid Ali, that he has written in part 2 of his article.

Part 3 of SHADDAD's LOST PARADISE contains this quotation by the
Promised Messiah (as), presumably translated by Rashid Ali:

"This sign of (Double Eclipse Ramadhan) has not been given to any
claimant, whether true or false, only given to Promised Mahdi. If
these Cruel Molvis can prove the occurrence of Double Eclipse in the
life of some other claimant, then I will no doubt become a liar."
(Roohani Khazain vol 11 p.332)

And after that Mr. Rashid quotes a list of claiments. But he
completely failed to show a claiment of Mahdi for whom this heavenly
sign was shown.

The challenge of the Imam Mahdi (peace be upon him)

The Promised Messiah, peace be upon him, also gave a challenge with a
reward of one thousand rupees to any one who could show that such a
Sign had occurred. He stated as follows:

"Are you not afraid to deny the Hadees of the Messenger of Allah,
peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, even though its truth has
become as manifest as the bright sun? Can you present a Sign like this
in any age in the past. Do you read in any book that some person
claimed to be from Almighty God and then in his time in Ramazan, the
lunar and solar eclipses occurred as you have now seen? If you are
aware then relate it and you will get one thousand rupees as a reward
if you can show. So prove it and take this reward and I make Almighty
God a witnesses. And if you cannot prove, and you will never be able
to prove, then guard against the Fire which is prepared for those who
create disorder." (Nooral Haq Part II)

Part 4 of SHADDAD's LOST PARADISE contains some very ambiguos
statements. The author is said to be Dr David L McNaughton. There are
two points worth mentioning.

Point 1:

Either Dr. David L McNaughton or Mr. Rashid Ali writes:

"According to many accounts, when Imam Muhammed al Baqir made his
prophecy, one of his companions suggested that he might have
inadvertently reversed the order of the two eclipses. However, the
Imam replied that he had not made a mistake."

But he fails to present any such accounts.

13th and 28th

As far as the dates being 13th (as the first of the Ramazan in terms
of Moon eclipses) and 28th (as the middle of the Ramazan in terms of
Sun eclipses) is concerned here are a few points to be noted:

1. The eclipse of Moon can only occur on 13th, 14th, and 15th of lunar
month, and Sun can only eclipse on the 27th, 28th, and 29th of the
lunar month. This is an established scientific evidence. Because these
are the only days when the position of the Sun, Moon and Earth is such
that an eclipse can occur.

2. An eclipse of Moon can only occur when the Moon is in opposition
i.e. at the time of Full Moon. If it has to occur on the 1st of the
lunar month, it will have to travel from one side of the earth to the
other, that is it will have to travel the distance of 15 days in a
day, which is not only against the simple common sense and science (as
with this speed it will lose its orbit) also against the verdict of
the Holy Quran: (36: 37-41)

3. If it has to occur on the first night of the lunar month, then who
is going to see it? The moon itself i.e. the crescent, is merely
visible, and if it is eclipsed who can see it? These Maulvis
themselves can not see the crescent, and in Pakistan there are two or
even three Eids in the same area of Peshawar because of different
sightings of the Moon, how can they see the eclipse? And remember the
Holy Prophet has called these eclipses "Signs". If nobody can see it,
how can they become signs? Therefore, it is necessary that the eclipse
occur on the first night of the eclipse dates, which the science has
proved now to be 13th!

4. These dates have also been accepted by other Islamic scholars
before the advent of the Imam Mahdi (as):

    * Hazrat Maulana Syed Abu Ahmad Rahmani writes in his book doosary
shahadat aasmani on page 13: "For the lunar eclipse the way of Allah
is that it occur on the 13th, 14th, and 15th, and the solar eclipse on
the 27th, 28th, and 29th".
    * Maulvi M. Ramazan Shah in Aakhree Gat (see an Urdu thesis on the
same topic.
    * Hafiz M. bin BarakAllah Lakhokay in Ahwalul Akhira.
    * Nawab Siddique Hassan Khan in Hajjaj ul Karama. All of them
agree with the dates.

5. A very important point in this respect is that Holy Prophet (pbuh)
has used the word Qamar in his hadeeth. And the Arabs know that Qamar
is the name of moon after 3 nights. As on first three nights the moon
is called Halal. See, for instance,

    * Aqrabul Mawarid Vol. 2
    * Ghareebul Quran fi lughatul Furqan, pg. 308, published by
Pakistan Educational Press. Author: Maulvi Abul Fazal bin Fayaz bin
Noroz Ali bin Haji Ali Shirazi.

6. These people themselves use the word Halal for the moon of the
first night. That is why e.g. in Pakistan for sighting of the moon
they have an organization called rooyat-e-Halal committee.

Point 2:

Dr David L McNaughton writes in SHADDAD's LOST PARADISE:

"However, there is absolutely no doubt that there have been many
occasions when a lunar and a solar eclipse have both been witnessed
during Ramadan"

Reply:

The objection has been raised that lunar and solar eclipses have
occurred in the month of Ramazan several times and hence these could
not be a reasonable criterion for the recognition of a Divine
Messenger. It is true that, both eclipses have occurred in the same
month of Ramazan many times but it is important to note that the
Hadees makes mention of specific dates and the presence of the
claimant is a vital part of the prophecy. The words "which has never
appeared before since the creation of the heavens and the earth" used
in the Hadees clearly show that the prophecy is highly significant.

Furthermore, the presence of the claimant is a necessary condition for
the fulfillment of the prophecy. The words of the Hadees "our Mahdi"
make it clear that this Sign is for the benefit of the Mahdi. Mere
occurrence of the eclipses without the claimant are of no significance.

The words "which has never appeared before since the creation of the
heavens and the earth" in the Hadees, imply that such a sign never
occurred before. They do not imply that such eclipses never occurred
before. The Promised Messiah (as), said:

"We are not concerned with how often solar and lunar eclipses have
occurred in the month of Ramazan from the beginning of the world till
today. Our aim is only to mention that from the time man has appeared
in this world, solar and lunar eclipses have occurred as Signs only in
my age for me. Prior to me, no one had this circumstances that on one
hand he claimed to be Mahdi Mauood (The Promised Reformer) and on the
other, in the month of Ramazan, on the appointed dates, lunar and
solar eclipses occurred and he declared the eclipses as signs in his
favour. The Hadees of Darqutni does not say at all that solar and
lunar eclipses did not occur ever before, but it does clearly say that
such eclipses never occurred earlier as Signs, because the word "lum
takuna" is used which denotes feminine gender; this implies that such
a Sign was never manifested before. If it was meant that such eclipses
never occurred before "lum yakuna" which denotes masculine gender was
needed and not "lum takuna" which denoted feminine gender. It is clear
from this that the reference is to the two signs because signs are of
feminine gender. Hence if anybody thinks that many times lunar and
solar eclipse have occurred, it is his responsibility to show the
claimant to Mahdi who declared the solar and lunar eclipses as his
sign and this proof should be certain and conclusive and this can only
happen if a book of the claimant is produced who claimed to be Mahdi
Ma'hood and had written that the lunar and solar eclipses which
occurred in Ramazan on the dates specified in Darqutni are the Signs
of my truth. In short we are not concerned with the mere occurrence of
solar and lunar eclipses even if they had been thousands of times. As
a Sign this has happened at the time of a claimant only once and the
Hadees has proved its authenticity and truth through its fulfillment
at the time of the claimant to Mahdi." (Chashma-e-Marifat, p. 315)

May Allah guide us to the right path. Ameen.

For those interested in the references of scholars and mystics please
visit this link http://www.alislam.org/urdu/maqala/chap8-1.php

These references are in Urdu.

__________________________________________________
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The Eclipse? - Doubts removed!
Introduction

The coming of a great Divine Reformer in the Latter Days has been
predicted in the holy scriptures of various religions. I propose to
discuss a very remarkable prophecy made by our lord and master, the
Holy Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, which
helps a seeker after truth in recognizing the promised reformer.
According to this prophecy, lunar and solar eclipses on the specified
dates of the month of Ramazan would serve as Signs of his advent. For
more details of this sign check out this article on the Internet:

"The advent of the promised Mahdi and the lunar and solar eclipses"
Link: http://www.alislam.org/library/sign.html

The purpose of this article is to bring to light the true facts
regarding this Sign and negate the doubts created by Mr. Rashid Ali,
of the Anti-Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam on on his web page.

Hazrat Ali bin Umar Albaghdadi Ad-Darqutni, an eminent authority on
Hadees, who lived from 918 to 995 of Christian Era (306 to 385 Hijri),
had recorded of the following Hadees narrated by Hazrat Imam Baqar
Muhammad bin Ali, son of Hazrat Imam Zainul Abedeen (may Allah have
mercy on them):

"For our Mahdi, there are two signs. Since the birth of Universe,
these events have never taken place. Those two signs are that there
will be Lunar Eclipse on the first night of Ramadhan and Solar Eclipse
in the middle of Ramadhan." (Dar-e-Qatni, vol 1 p.188)

(As translated and presented by Mr. Rashid Ali in his article
Shaddad's Lost Paradise.)

The hadith is recorded by Hazrat Ali bin Umar Albaghdadi Ad-Darqutni
in Sunan Darqutni, Kitabul eidain, Chapter: salat-ul-kasoof-ul khasoof
wa haitahuma.

These Signs are mentioned in the collections of Hadees of both Sunni
and Shia sects. Eminent Muslim scholars have been quoting these Signs
in their books. This prophecy is recorded in several scholarly texts,
some of them are mentioned below:

1. Fatawa Hadisiya, Allama Sheikh Ahmad Shahabuddin Ibn Hijrul Haismi.

2. Ikmal-ud-din

3. Beharul Anwar

4. Hejajul Kirama by Nawab Siddeeq Hassan Khan.

5. Maktoobaat-e-Imam Rabbani Mujaddid Alf-e-Sani

6. Qiyamat Nama Farsi by Hazrat Shah Rafeeuddin Muhaddis of Delhi.

7. Aqaedul Islam by Maulana Abdul Haq Muhaddis of Delhi.

8. Iqtirabus Saa't by Nawab Sideeq Hassan Khan.

9. Ahwalul Akhirat by Hafiz Muhammad of Lakhoke.

Only the name of a very few books/authors are mentioned here for
brevity. For complete reference with original words check out an Urdu
thesis on the same topic online. It's chapter no. 8 contains 22
references from the Islamic books of the different sects of Islam.

Doubts about the Sign

Many doubts have been created in the simple minds of people ragarding
this sign. The aim of this article is to enlighten the respected
reader with the true facts.

First Doubt

The first doubt which has been created by Mr. Rashid Ali, in the first
part of this article, is:

"The tradition mentioned above is a quotation of Imam Mohammed al
Baqir bin 'Ali and not the Hadith of Holy Prophet Mohammed SAAW."

Reply:

1. Imam Dar-e-Qatni has written this so-called quotation as Hadith in
his book. Why?

2. This was a tradition of Ahl-e-Bait that they, because of their own
personality and character, did not deem it necessary to mention all
the narrators of the tradition till the Holy Prophet (pbuh). This is
why there are hundreds of Ahadith published by the Shias that they do
not contain the chain of narrators. Nor do they contain the words that
"Holy Prophet (pbuh) said this".

3. If this was not the Hadeeth then why have Islamic scholars have
been mentioning it since ancient times in their books as Hadeeth?

Second Doubt

In Rashid Ali's article he writes:

"For the last several centuries, Islamic Scholars of Hadiths
(muhadditheens) have always maintained that the two narrators, 'Amr
and Jabir, of this tradition are known to be liars. This tradition is
therefore not to be relied upon." [3]

Reply:

1. If it was so then why did Imam Abul Hassan Dar Qutni record it in
his book?

2. Secondly, which Islamic Scholar has doubted its validity and in
what reference?

3. Why did so many Islamic Scholar not know of such thing, and mention
it in their books as a valid and authentic Hadith. Refer to chapter 8
of Khasoof-o-Kasoof ka nishan (Urdu).

4. When the prophecy contained in this Hadeeth has been fulfilled then
how can one now doubt its authenticity? When the truth has become
clear by the fulfillment of the prophecy itself!

5. If this principle is not correct, then how can you accept the
prophecies mentioned in the Bible (which have been fulfilled in the
self of Holy Prophet) When there is no proof of the authenticity of
those prophecies (as you believe that not everything found in Bible
today is the word of God)

6. Now there is no need for anyone to tell us whether this is Hadith
or not as the God Alimghty Himself has given His verdict by fulfilling
the Sign!

7. If you think that these are not the words of the Holy Prophet,
which means that these are the words of a liar, then you should take a
baiat of that person, whom you think is the originator of these words,
whose prophecy has become true now! But if you have any respect for
the Holy Prophet (pbuh) you can not attribute these words to any
person other than Holy Prophet (pbuh) whose truth has become clear now
with the fulfillment of this prophecy like day light!

Part 2 of this SHADDAD's LOST PARADISE only contains quotations from
the books of the Promised Messiah (as). Nothing has been said about
this heavenly Sign. Insha'Allah in another article, I'll expose a few
more lies of Mr. Rashid Ali, that he has written in part 2 of his article.

Part 3 of SHADDAD's LOST PARADISE contains this quotation by the
Promised Messiah (as), presumably translated by Rashid Ali:

"This sign of (Double Eclipse Ramadhan) has not been given to any
claimant, whether true or false, only given to Promised Mahdi. If
these Cruel Molvis can prove the occurrence of Double Eclipse in the
life of some other claimant, then I will no doubt become a liar."
(Roohani Khazain vol 11 p.332)

And after that Mr. Rashid quotes a list of claiments. But he
completely failed to show a claiment of Mahdi for whom this heavenly
sign was shown.

The challenge of the Imam Mahdi (peace be upon him)

The Promised Messiah, peace be upon him, also gave a challenge with a
reward of one thousand rupees to any one who could show that such a
Sign had occurred. He stated as follows:

"Are you not afraid to deny the Hadees of the Messenger of Allah,
peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, even though its truth has
become as manifest as the bright sun? Can you present a Sign like this
in any age in the past. Do you read in any book that some person
claimed to be from Almighty God and then in his time in Ramazan, the
lunar and solar eclipses occurred as you have now seen? If you are
aware then relate it and you will get one thousand rupees as a reward
if you can show. So prove it and take this reward and I make Almighty
God a witnesses. And if you cannot prove, and you will never be able
to prove, then guard against the Fire which is prepared for those who
create disorder." (Nooral Haq Part II)

Part 4 of SHADDAD's LOST PARADISE contains some very ambiguos
statements. The author is said to be Dr David L McNaughton. There are
two points worth mentioning.

Point 1:

Either Dr. David L McNaughton or Mr. Rashid Ali writes:

"According to many accounts, when Imam Muhammed al Baqir made his
prophecy, one of his companions suggested that he might have
inadvertently reversed the order of the two eclipses. However, the
Imam replied that he had not made a mistake."

But he fails to present any such accounts.

13th and 28th

As far as the dates being 13th (as the first of the Ramazan in terms
of Moon eclipses) and 28th (as the middle of the Ramazan in terms of
Sun eclipses) is concerned here are a few points to be noted:

1. The eclipse of Moon can only occur on 13th, 14th, and 15th of lunar
month, and Sun can only eclipse on the 27th, 28th, and 29th of the
lunar month. This is an established scientific evidence. Because these
are the only days when the position of the Sun, Moon and Earth is such
that an eclipse can occur.

2. An eclipse of Moon can only occur when the Moon is in opposition
i.e. at the time of Full Moon. If it has to occur on the 1st of the
lunar month, it will have to travel from one side of the earth to the
other, that is it will have to travel the distance of 15 days in a
day, which is not only against the simple common sense and science (as
with this speed it will lose its orbit) also against the verdict of
the Holy Quran: (36: 37-41)

3. If it has to occur on the first night of the lunar month, then who
is going to see it? The moon itself i.e. the crescent, is merely
visible, and if it is eclipsed who can see it? These Maulvis
themselves can not see the crescent, and in Pakistan there are two or
even three Eids in the same area of Peshawar because of different
sightings of the Moon, how can they see the eclipse? And remember the
Holy Prophet has called these eclipses "Signs". If nobody can see it,
how can they become signs? Therefore, it is necessary that the eclipse
occur on the first night of the eclipse dates, which the science has
proved now to be 13th!

4. These dates have also been accepted by other Islamic scholars
before the advent of the Imam Mahdi (as):

     * Hazrat Maulana Syed Abu Ahmad Rahmani writes in his book doosary
shahadat aasmani on page 13: "For the lunar eclipse the way of Allah
is that it occur on the 13th, 14th, and 15th, and the solar eclipse on
the 27th, 28th, and 29th".
     * Maulvi M. Ramazan Shah in Aakhree Gat (see an Urdu thesis on the
same topic.
     * Hafiz M. bin BarakAllah Lakhokay in Ahwalul Akhira.
     * Nawab Siddique Hassan Khan in Hajjaj ul Karama. All of them
agree with the dates.

5. A very important point in this respect is that Holy Prophet (pbuh)
has used the word Qamar in his hadeeth. And the Arabs know that Qamar
is the name of moon after 3 nights. As on first three nights the moon
is called Halal. See, for instance,

     * Aqrabul Mawarid Vol. 2
     * Ghareebul Quran fi lughatul Furqan, pg. 308, published by
Pakistan Educational Press. Author: Maulvi Abul Fazal bin Fayaz bin
Noroz Ali bin Haji Ali Shirazi.

6. These people themselves use the word Halal for the moon of the
first night. That is why e.g. in Pakistan for sighting of the moon
they have an organization called rooyat-e-Halal committee.

Point 2:

Dr David L McNaughton writes in SHADDAD's LOST PARADISE:

"However, there is absolutely no doubt that there have been many
occasions when a lunar and a solar eclipse have both been witnessed
during Ramadan"

Reply:

The objection has been raised that lunar and solar eclipses have
occurred in the month of Ramazan several times and hence these could
not be a reasonable criterion for the recognition of a Divine
Messenger. It is true that, both eclipses have occurred in the same
month of Ramazan many times but it is important to note that the
Hadees makes mention of specific dates and the presence of the
claimant is a vital part of the prophecy. The words "which has never
appeared before since the creation of the heavens and the earth" used
in the Hadees clearly show that the prophecy is highly significant.

Furthermore, the presence of the claimant is a necessary condition for
the fulfillment of the prophecy. The words of the Hadees "our Mahdi"
make it clear that this Sign is for the benefit of the Mahdi. Mere
occurrence of the eclipses without the claimant are of no significance.

The words "which has never appeared before since the creation of the
heavens and the earth" in the Hadees, imply that such a sign never
occurred before. They do not imply that such eclipses never occurred
before. The Promised Messiah (as), said:

"We are not concerned with how often solar and lunar eclipses have
occurred in the month of Ramazan from the beginning of the world till
today. Our aim is only to mention that from the time man has appeared
in this world, solar and lunar eclipses have occurred as Signs only in
my age for me. Prior to me, no one had this circumstances that on one
hand he claimed to be Mahdi Mauood (The Promised Reformer) and on the
other, in the month of Ramazan, on the appointed dates, lunar and
solar eclipses occurred and he declared the eclipses as signs in his
favour. The Hadees of Darqutni does not say at all that solar and
lunar eclipses did not occur ever before, but it does clearly say that
such eclipses never occurred earlier as Signs, because the word "lum
takuna" is used which denotes feminine gender; this implies that such
a Sign was never manifested before. If it was meant that such eclipses
never occurred before "lum yakuna" which denotes masculine gender was
needed and not "lum takuna" which denoted feminine gender. It is clear
from this that the reference is to the two signs because signs are of
feminine gender. Hence if anybody thinks that many times lunar and
solar eclipse have occurred, it is his responsibility to show the
claimant to Mahdi who declared the solar and lunar eclipses as his
sign and this proof should be certain and conclusive and this can only
happen if a book of the claimant is produced who claimed to be Mahdi
Ma'hood and had written that the lunar and solar eclipses which
occurred in Ramazan on the dates specified in Darqutni are the Signs
of my truth. In short we are not concerned with the mere occurrence of
solar and lunar eclipses even if they had been thousands of times. As
a Sign this has happened at the time of a claimant only once and the
Hadees has proved its authenticity and truth through its fulfillment
at the time of the claimant to Mahdi." (Chashma-e-Marifat, p. 315)

May Allah guide us to the right path. Ameen.

For those interested in the references of scholars and mystics please
visit this link http://www.alislam.org/urdu/maqala/chap8-1.php

These references are in Urdu.

The fact is that in Anwar-e-Khilafat  and A'ina-i-Sadaqat, Hazrat
Khalifatul Masih did not at all say that the non-Ahmadis, by their
rejection of the Promised Messiah, had thrown themselves outside the
apparent outward fold of Islam.

In Anwar-i-Khilafat, there is an expression that we should not take
the non-Ahmadis to be Muslims. But it does not mean that we have
rejected the idea of taking them as Muslims even as far as the outward
form is concerned. Otherwise, expressions of this kind, in their
limited sense and meaning, have often been used by the Promised
Messiah himself. For instance take the following quotations:

"It is a firm proposition in the Hadith that where a man says in
regard to a momin that he is a kafir, the man who says this, himself
he becomes a kafir. So in my case, when nearly 200 maulvis have
declared that I am a kafir ; and they applied a fatwa of kufr on me;
and when, on the basis of their own fatwa it stands established that
he who says in regard to a real momin that he has become a kafir, he
himself thereby, becomes a kafir, the remedy in such cases is easy. If
the rest of the people have even a grain of honesty and iman, and if
they are not mere hypocrites, they should come forward and denounce
these maulvis, and their fatwa against me, name by name, in a big
poster, and declare that they had all become kafirs, because they had
said in regard to a momin that he was a kafir. When they have
publicly, and quite openly disassociated themselves from this unjust
fatwa, I shall readily take them as Muslims - provided in their action
there is no trace of hypocrisy, and provided they do not seek to term
as false open and obvious signs and miracles." (Haqiqatul Wahyi, page 165)

Now please think very seriously here. Although the Promised Messiah in
this passage does not take the non-Ahmadis to be Muslims, you
interpret the general sense of the passage to mean that there is here
no denial involved of the fact that outwardly they still remain formal
Muslims, so to say, then what is the difficulty in holding that
precisely this, and no more is the sense and meaning of the passages
under reference from Anwar-i-Khilafat and A'ina-i-Sadaqat ? In this
case, too, there is no intention to deny that outwardly, in any case,
such Muslims remained formal Muslims.

Now remains the specific passage in A'ina-i-Sadaqat. So it is to be
remembered that words of this kind, in Islam, have been used in two
meanings. One meaning is to say that the person in question is a
non-Muslim. The second is that the person in question is alien to the
real spirit of Islam, and he has fallen a victim to a serious error in
belief. This is what the Holy Prophet Muhammad, himself, has to say on
the point:

"Where a man sallies forth to give support to an unjust person,
knowing that he is unjust, the supporter, thereby, throws himself
outside the bounds of Islam."

Chambers English Dictionary :

Prostituition mean devotion of BASE purposes.

Holy Quran :

68:13 Violent (and cruel),- with all that, BASE-born,-

its obvious that BASE can be replaced by "prostitute"i.e
"Prostitute-born" means same as "Base-Born"...hence Promised Messiah
(as) was Quranically accurate in calling his enemies "Progeny of
Prostitutes"

Now some people will say that only Allan can use this harsh language
to describe his enemies.Well according to the Holy Quran :


2:159 Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the
Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on
them shall be Allah's curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse,-

2:161 Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- on them is Allah's
curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind;

3:87 Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, of
His angels, and of all mankind;-

5:78 curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who
rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary:
because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.

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Thankyou very much for the reply. I'am however
disappointed with the degree of knowledge you have
shown in this email. Someone has corrupted your brain
by putting there that I hate you. You'll not find even
a single word of "hate" in my mails, where as you have
used this word 7 times. Gentleman I love you as ahuman
being, the only thing I hate is the IGNORANCE AND
HATERDNESS. Qadyani Jamaat has
Shamim Bukhari says:
wilfully created immense hate for Muslims in your
heart. I am very happy and pleased to see that you
have invited us to indulge in some intelligent and
intellectual discussion on the issue. I welcome this
offer and assure you that you'll always find me ready
to respond positively to any such effort by you.
Shamim Bukhari says:
I'm not violent, neither I like violence. Islam is the
  relegion of peace and this is what I belive in as a
Muslim.  I invite you to select the most favourite
topic of your own choice, and lets start discussion
purely relevent to the topic. I'll be waiting for your response.



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http://www.hadaaya.com/marzaie/muneer01.htm



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Dear Mr I.KJ.K.Baluch.
I received your email and could not reply it as I was
on foreign visit.
Your reply was, I’m sorry to say, not at all of any
importance to me, as there was no answer to the
questions that I had asked in my last mail. Further,
your email was just a prototype ready made junk of
irrelevant statements that had no connection to Holy
Quran and Hadeed. You failed to even give single quote
not only from Quran and Hadees but even from the books
of mirza ghulam ahmad. The core summary of your letter
is that " Masaiah has come and that the Muslims are
wrongly waiting for Isa Alaihi Sallam, as He is not
going to come back". According to you Masaiah has
already come and the Masaih, as per you, is Mirza
Ghulam Ahmad Qadyani.
I feel pitty of your ignorance about Islam and even
the books of mirza qadyani !!!!
You look to believe that Mirza qadyani is The
Masiah....... Where as mirza qadyani himself denies
any such claim........ Mirza Qadyani himself wrote in
his book Azala-e-Aohaam Page 690 " es aajiz nay jo
MASEEL-E-MAOOD honay ka dawa kia hai jis ko KAM FAHIM
log MASEEH-E-MAOOD khiyal ker baithay
hain................. main nay yih dawa her giz nahi
kia kih main MASEEH IBN E MARYAM hoon, jo shakhs yih
ilzam meray per lagaweay woh sarasar MUFTRY AOR KAZZAB
hai." So this is writing of mirza ghulam ahmad qadyani
and according to mirza qadyani anyone who says that
mirza is MASEEH-MAOOD he is KAZZAB AND MUFTRY. So now
check your own status in own wordings of mirza, If you
believe that mirza was maseeh-maood, then you should
think that according to mirza qadyani who is MUFTRY
AND KAZZAB.
Further, please read open letter on following link,
this letter has been published in many internationally
known news papers. We are waiting for the official
reply of this letter from qadyani Jamaat, please read
the legtter and urge your leadership to publish an
open reply to the questions asked in this letter.


http://www.ahmadi-truth.com/files/Open_Letter_1.pdf
http://www.ahmadi-truth.com/files/Open_Letter_2.pdf
http://www.ahmadi-truth.com/files/Open_Letter_3.pdf


Please read all letters on above links and send reply.





--- ilyas javed <ijkbaluch@...> wrote:

> Mr. Sohail Bawa,
>
> you are putting your own invented immaginatry belief
> into the mouth of Holy Prophet ( s.a.w) that after
> the nazool of Hazarat Essa (a.s) the ummah will
> unite and there will be only one religon in the
> world i_e Islam which is against Quran?
>
> Let refer the Verse & Hadees with full  particular?
>
> My dear neither it had happened in the life of our
> Holy Prophet (s.a.w) that the whole world  become
> muslim nor it will accure till qiyamah because
> unbelievers always remain as you all are denying the
>  truth today.
> Holy Prophet (s.a.w) said that Messiah will
> ditribute the spritual wealth but people will refuse
> to accept like the majority of your people has
> refused the truth and time is proving it.
> Further more it for all the opponents of Messiah
> Maud (a.s) to become one single jamaat  out of 73 as
> per the saying before claiming the only Naji Jamaat
> as all the 72 jahannami's  sects faith & belief are
> common but Inshallah they shall never ever unite and
> you are going to unite the whole world under the
> umberala of Messiah (a.s)
> Bani Israelies (Jews) are also praying & waiting
> like you all waiting for Messiah Ibne Maryam (a.s)
> but neither their Aalia Prophet has descend as per
> their faith from sky nor Messiah Ibna Maryam (a.s)
> shall  descend as this is against the law &  words
> of Allah.
> Do not bother about the minor split in jamaat as
> this is necessary to Purofy (Pak) the Jamaat from
> hippocrates similarly as the hippocrates entered the
> Jamaat of Muhammd (s.a.w) and went.
> The present suiside killing in London and action in
> Pakistan is another humiliation for all of you as
> you all are extremist and according to your faith
> you will bow down the world by suisiding bombs &
> Jihad?
> When our last caliph left Pakistan after the
> cinstitutional ban by Zia entire extremist mullah
> with hapinee & joy claimed that as we have closed
> the door on Ahmadiees in Pakistan and we will follow
>  them the  whole world and will closed the door of
> world on them too but now the reality is happening
> and world is clossing the door on rigged extremist
> in their countries as Molvi Sami Ul Haq humiliated
> are sent back to Pakistan is a symble of
> humiliations for all of you but unbelievers always
> refuses the truth.
> Note the more humiliation are in the pipeline.
> You challanged to change the Sunnet Allah if you can
> but, Never Ever.
> I.KJ.K.Baluch.
> 21st July, 2005
>
>
> sohailbawa@... wrote:
> Mr. Ilyas,
>
> It is true that the ummah has been divide in to many
> sect but our Holy Prophet (PBUH) him self
> prophesised
> that after his rehlat there will 72 sects in his
> ummah
> and our Holy Prophet(PBUH) also prophesised that
> after
> hazrat esa (PBUH)’s nazool the ummah will unite and
> their will be only one religion in the world and
> that
> would be Islam.
> mirza qadiyani claimed to be the Massayah and you
> people believed him as the Massayah .as we can see
> that let alone the ummah YOUR OWN JAMMAT HAS BEEN
> and
> IS BEEN divided in many groups, this proves mirza
> qadiyan's claims to be the Massayah where false and
> he
> was not the Massaih but a lair.
>
> Apart from this lie there are many other lies, we
> can
> prove with his own writing,he was a big lire.
>
> What will you call mirza qhulam qadiyani
> Nabi,massiyah
> or a lair Mr Ilyas?
>
>
> KHATMENUBUWWAT ACADEMY LONDON.
> 11,july,2005
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
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> items.
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>
>
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>
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>
>
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This's the standard mindless reply of Kadiani missionaries. They just
don't get they're arguing for a lost case.

If their issue was important, it was for Allah and Prophet Muhammad to
say so and not for Kadiani missionaries to pretend it. The biggest
proof against them is that all evidence in Koran and Sonnah is against
their stories & they can't find one ayah or one hadith that says "Isa
is dead and will not return"! Now, would Allah not warn Christians
against their faith in the opposite? Kadiani missionaries have got no
proof, just assumptions. Prophet Muhammad didn't come to leave room
for assumptions on important issues.

Like others said, Mirza still is proven a fraud no matter how much
Kadiani missionaries make up about Jesus. All their arguing doesn't
change things a bit and they know have lost on Mirza's claims and
character.

--- In qadianism@yahoogroups.com, ilyas javed <ijkbaluch@y...> wrote:
> Dear,
>          This is your illitrate approach weather Jesus has died or
is alive as it is the matter of life & death for those whom you have
joined & they have blacked thousand books to justified their self
invented immaginatry faith which is denied by Qur'an.
> Your this reply is nothing more then your hatred which explled you
from Pak jamaat but you & your party will expreance the crushing
defeat with humiliation after humiliation which is Sunnet_Allah and
changes.
> Time & again I repelled your baseless & false claims & challanged
you to deny but you just said what to reply which proof your illitracy
for which you are so proud of.
> Tell the forum weather you have convinced your parents &  relatives
of your new faith & belief.
> Is this your knowledge. The gure (mullahisam) you have choosen will
destroy you.
> I.J.K.Baluch.
> 25th,July, 2005.
> scarface_2k <styleguru@g...> wrote:
> Dear brother Faizan,
>
> Whether Jesus is alive or dead, in the heavens or not, is not as
relevant as whether proving
> it either way would make Mirza Sahib a prophet.
>
> The only reason Ahmadis expend so much energy trying to prove that
Jesus is dead (and
> according to Mirza Sahib, died in several different places) is so
that Mirza Sahib's claim to
> be a metaphorical Isa (as) can be established.
>
> If Jesus is going to come back again, only THE Jesus will come.
There is no mention in the
> Qur'an of any Messiah other than Isa (as) - and the ahadith, if you
as an Ahmadi believe in
> them, talk only of Isa (as) and not a metaphorical Isa. There is no
mention in any authentic
> Islamic literature of any metaphorical Isa. Interestingly, there is
also no mention of a
> second advent of RasulAllah (saw) anywhere either. Finally, Imam
Mahdi in the ahadith is
> not the same person as Isa (as).
>
> We really should stop any conjecture about Isa (as) as Mirza Sahib
was prone to do, as
> Allah (swt) has forbidden this:
>
> Sura An-Nisa, 157:
> 'That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary,
the Messenger of
> Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was
made to appear to them,
> and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain)
knowledge, but only
> conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- '
>
>
> --- In qadianism@yahoogroups.com, "faizan_a86" wrote:
> > Khalid Qureshi Saheb,
> > Please do not take offence, but could you for once just please
> > discuss the matter at hand in a scholarly manner without references
> > to murabbis and what not.....
> >
> > You gave me a whole list of things which are worshipped... but I
> > don't think you read my post clearly.. Let me try again:
> >
> > 16: 21. And those on whom they call besides Allah create not
> > anything, but they are themselves created.
> > 16: 22. They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will
> > raised.
> >
> > The verse says that the ppl who are worshipped "know not when they
> > will be raised".. So this automatically rules out angels, satan etc
> > because they are not like humans who will be raised to life again..
> > So you see, Allah confines the subject to only those who will be
> > raised up alive again after death, ie, humans, like me, you and
> > jesus..
> > And what does God say about these ppl who are called besides
> > Him?? "THEY ARE DEAD".. But if you say that Jesus is alive, then
> > you're admitting to a contradiction in the Quran..
> >
> > Ruqayya Saheba,
> > You have to understand, it is YOU who will create contradictions in
> > the Quran by sticking to the belief of Jesus being alive.. The Quran
> > does indeed clearly say that Jesus wasn't killed, and nor did he die
> > on the cross.. but does that automatically mean that he was raised
> > up to heaven? Are these the only 3 options available??Anyway, this
> > will lead to a whole long discussion as to what "rafa'a" means and I
> > dont want to get into that right now....
> >
> > I'm trying to approach this issue from a few other less used quranic
> > verses which have not been discussed, so let's stick to that...
> >
> >
> > Here's another verse I'd like everyone's opinion on:
> >
> > 15: 49. Fatigue shall not touch them, nor shall they ever be ejected
> > therefrom.
> >
> >
> > This verse is regarding the occupants of Heaven. It is clearly
> > stating that they who enter heaven shall never be "ejected
> > therefrom". But according to your belief, Jesus will be made to
> > leave heaven and come back to earth? Are you not causing a
> > contradicton again??
> >
> > Here's another one for you think about:
> > : 50. "And will send him as a Messenger to the Children of
> > Israel...."
> > Jesus's mission was confined only to the Children of Israel and this
> > is testified by both the Bible and the Quran.. However if he
> > descends down again to fight all the kaffir and dajjals, then he
> > will become a world messenger on par with our Holy Prophet PBUH.. So
> > as Jesus is descending to save the world, the Quran will be
> > testifying to his mission only being confined to BaniIsrael.. yet
> > another contradiction you'd cause!!!
> >
> > There's more I could give you, but lets discuss these above 3
> > references first..
> > Looking for a quick response and a friendly, scholarly exchange of
> > ideas! :)
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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how lucky for the world that Mirza appeared to tell us this critical
point, which, per you, Allah and Rasul'Allah(pbuh) had forgotten to
mention! of course, according to Qadianis, Mirza was a new improved
reincarnation of Rasul'Allah(pbuh), so really Muhammad(pbuh) didn't
forget to tell us about the so called death of Jesus(pbuh) and
he(pbuh) didn't have to correct his sayings about Jesus(pbuh)'s
return, becaue he(pbuh) had just postponed them until his "second
advent"! Astakforella! Shame on Qadiani morabbis for what they're
suggesting.

I suppose like other extremists you believe your ideas show the
"literate approach"? Thanks, you can keep them for yourself.

--- In qadianism@yahoogroups.com, ilyas javed <ijkbaluch@y...> wrote:
> Dear,
>          This is your illitrate approach weather Jesus has died or
is alive as it is the matter of life & death for those whom you have
joined & they have blacked thousand books to justified their self
invented immaginatry faith which is denied by Qur'an.
> Your this reply is nothing more then your hatred which explled you
from Pak jamaat but you & your party will expreance the crushing
defeat with humiliation after humiliation which is Sunnet_Allah and
changes.
> Time & again I repelled your baseless & false claims & challanged
you to deny but you just said what to reply which proof your illitracy
for which you are so proud of.
> Tell the forum weather you have convinced your parents &  relatives
of your new faith & belief.
> Is this your knowledge. The gure (mullahisam) you have choosen will
destroy you.
> I.J.K.Baluch.
> 25th,July, 2005.
> scarface_2k <styleguru@g...> wrote:
> Dear brother Faizan,
>
> Whether Jesus is alive or dead, in the heavens or not, is not as
relevant as whether proving
> it either way would make Mirza Sahib a prophet.
>
> The only reason Ahmadis expend so much energy trying to prove that
Jesus is dead (and
> according to Mirza Sahib, died in several different places) is so
that Mirza Sahib's claim to
> be a metaphorical Isa (as) can be established.
>
> If Jesus is going to come back again, only THE Jesus will come.
There is no mention in the
> Qur'an of any Messiah other than Isa (as) - and the ahadith, if you
as an Ahmadi believe in
> them, talk only of Isa (as) and not a metaphorical Isa. There is no
mention in any authentic
> Islamic literature of any metaphorical Isa. Interestingly, there is
also no mention of a
> second advent of RasulAllah (saw) anywhere either. Finally, Imam
Mahdi in the ahadith is
> not the same person as Isa (as).
>
> We really should stop any conjecture about Isa (as) as Mirza Sahib
was prone to do, as
> Allah (swt) has forbidden this:
>
> Sura An-Nisa, 157:
> 'That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary,
the Messenger of
> Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was
made to appear to them,
> and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain)
knowledge, but only
> conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- '
>
>
> --- In qadianism@yahoogroups.com, "faizan_a86" wrote:
> > Khalid Qureshi Saheb,
> > Please do not take offence, but could you for once just please
> > discuss the matter at hand in a scholarly manner without references
> > to murabbis and what not.....
> >
> > You gave me a whole list of things which are worshipped... but I
> > don't think you read my post clearly.. Let me try again:
> >
> > 16: 21. And those on whom they call besides Allah create not
> > anything, but they are themselves created.
> > 16: 22. They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will
> > raised.
> >
> > The verse says that the ppl who are worshipped "know not when they
> > will be raised".. So this automatically rules out angels, satan etc
> > because they are not like humans who will be raised to life again..
> > So you see, Allah confines the subject to only those who will be
> > raised up alive again after death, ie, humans, like me, you and
> > jesus..
> > And what does God say about these ppl who are called besides
> > Him?? "THEY ARE DEAD".. But if you say that Jesus is alive, then
> > you're admitting to a contradiction in the Quran..
> >
> > Ruqayya Saheba,
> > You have to understand, it is YOU who will create contradictions in
> > the Quran by sticking to the belief of Jesus being alive.. The Quran
> > does indeed clearly say that Jesus wasn't killed, and nor did he die
> > on the cross.. but does that automatically mean that he was raised
> > up to heaven? Are these the only 3 options available??Anyway, this
> > will lead to a whole long discussion as to what "rafa'a" means and I
> > dont want to get into that right now....
> >
> > I'm trying to approach this issue from a few other less used quranic
> > verses which have not been discussed, so let's stick to that...
> >
> >
> > Here's another verse I'd like everyone's opinion on:
> >
> > 15: 49. Fatigue shall not touch them, nor shall they ever be ejected
> > therefrom.
> >
> >
> > This verse is regarding the occupants of Heaven. It is clearly
> > stating that they who enter heaven shall never be "ejected
> > therefrom". But according to your belief, Jesus will be made to
> > leave heaven and come back to earth? Are you not causing a
> > contradicton again??
> >
> > Here's another one for you think about:
> > : 50. "And will send him as a Messenger to the Children of
> > Israel...."
> > Jesus's mission was confined only to the Children of Israel and this
> > is testified by both the Bible and the Quran.. However if he
> > descends down again to fight all the kaffir and dajjals, then he
> > will become a world messenger on par with our Holy Prophet PBUH.. So
> > as Jesus is descending to save the world, the Quran will be
> > testifying to his mission only being confined to BaniIsrael.. yet
> > another contradiction you'd cause!!!
> >
> > There's more I could give you, but lets discuss these above 3
> > references first..
> > Looking for a quick response and a friendly, scholarly exchange of
> > ideas! :)
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com

How come when we point out the criminals, the murderers, the
extremists in Kadiani cult and brothers even post newspaper clippings
you cry that they don't represent Kadiani cult, but then you talk like
other koffar and Muslim haters about Islam?! Are you familiar with the
word "monafeq"? That fits you perfectly.

For the records, when Maulana Moududi and others were leading protests
to declare Kadianis non-Muslim, it was Kadiani controlled military and
police that murdered close to 10,000 Pakistanis. They even gave
Moududi death penalty for his stance that Kadianis weren't Muslim. Of
course, these monqfiqs didn't set up any web sites about "human
rights" or "terrorism"! They showed their true extremist face when
they had gathered power illegally and they still burn with hatred for
Muslim and everything decent and right.

--- In qadianism@yahoogroups.com, ilyas javed <ijkbaluch@y...> wrote:
> The present suiside killing in London and action in Pakistan is
another humiliation for all of you as you all are extremist and
according to your faith you will bow down the world by suisiding bombs
& Jihad?

Do you actually have any proof or more of the same guesswork? Other
Islam haters too have lots of guess and anti-Islamic propaganda on
their web sites. But, like Qadianis they have got no proof and
everyone can guess as much as they want. At last they've not proven
anything.

Anyhow, how does any of this prove Mirza was a second advent of
Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), as you ridiculously believe?

Funny how Islam teaches in finality of prophethood and you reject it
and Islam teaches return of Jesus(pbuh) and you reject it. Per you,
Allah and Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did not intend to say what they meant
and needed someone like Mirza to come along and put words, nauzobilla,
in their mouths! Your example is that of all those groups that are
bundled together with other unbelivers and are headed to hell.

--- In qadianism@yahoogroups.com, ilyas javed <ijkbaluch@y...> wrote:
> Respected Ruqiayya Sahiba.
> Allah teaches each & every one whom submit himself completly with
the desire to learn/understand Qur'an as per this verse.
> 054.017
> YUSUFALI: And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and
remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?
> This is repeated 4 times in Surah Al_Qamar by Allah which  is proof
that who so ever  whishes will be awarded with wisdom to understand.
>
>  So it is a challenge to prove your claim in the light of Qur'an &
Hadith please. <>

>
> As claimed by your Islamic scholars ulama's and religious and
political leaders with challenge that there are many verses in Qur'an
regarding the second coming of Messiah Ibne Maryam.
>
> But Surah Al-Maida verses no 116 to 118 reject their claim beyond
remotest doubt what so ever. <>
>
> And behold! Allah will say "o Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say
unto men `worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"?
He will say: "glory to thee! Never could i say what i had no right (to
say). Had i said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it.  Thou
knowest what is in my heart though i know not what is in thine.  for
thou knowest in full all that is hidden. <>
>
> "never said i to them aught except what thou didst command me to say
to wit `worship Allah my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over
them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when thou didst take me up thou wast
the watcher over them and thou art a witness to all things. If thou
dost punish them they are thy servants: if thou dost forgive them thou
art the exalted the wise. <>
>
> For example we say that Allah took up Messiah (a.s) then how he can
say these words till today i-e the day of resurrection, i don't know
weather my ummah has made two more gods ( me & my mother ) other then
one Allah. When Allah has taken him up to sky and sends again to earth
yet he is unaware of the facts & saying that he doesn't know that his
ummah had made 2 more gods except Allah. These verses absolutely
reject the claim what so ever. If u have any concrete proof to reject
this claim u are most welcome. <>
>
> Secondly the holy Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) in his life narrated
and briefs the meaning of these verses in His life.  <>
>
> Sahih Bukhari Hadith no b-6/149 the prophet then said, "The first of
the human beings to be dressed on the day of resurrection will be
Abraham. lo! some men from my followers will be brought and then (the
angels) will drive them to the left side (hell-fire). i will say. 'o
my lord! (they are) my companions!' then a reply will come (from
Almighty), 'you do not know what they did after you.'<> then I will
say as the pious slave <> (the prophet Jesus) said: and i was a
witness over them while i dwelt amongst them. <> when you took me up,
<> you were the watcher over them and you are a witness to all
things.'  (5.117) <> then it will be said, 'these people have
continued to be apostates since you left them.'<> Alim c.d translated
by your Alim Yousaf Ali. <>
>
> Here it is clearly mentioned (when you took me up) but in bukhari
the meaning of this word (tawaffa) are given in bracket (gave me
death) why?  When you take the meaning of this word (tawaffa) to take
up to sky for Messiah (a.s) but for the holy prophet u change the
meaning as gave me death, why? Is this yourTaqwa & love with holy
prophet you proudly claim? English meaning still are, <> when u took
me up? <>
>
> Sahih Muslim Hadith also torn into pieces your claim English
translation by Yousaf Ali c d <>Alim Hadith <>no 7015 <>
>
>  1. ….he who among you will survive to see him should recite over
him the opening verses of Surah Al-Kahf (xviii). <>
>
>
>
> 2…….. it will be under such conditions that Allah will reveal to
Jesus these words: i have brought forth from among my servants such
people against whom none will be able to fight; you take these people
safely to tur, <>
>
> 3…...Allah's apostle (peace be upon him), Jesus, and his companions,
then come down to earth and they will not find on earth as much space
as a single span that is not filled with putrefaction and stench.
Allah's apostle (peace be upon him), jesus, and his companions will
then beseech <>
>
>
>
> 1….. The part of the Hadith underlined why holy prophet says to read
the verses of Surah Al-Kahf? Because these verses clearly define
nasara (Christians) and prove that dajjal are the Christians countries
not an one eyed jack or a system or a monster as usually described by
Dr. Israr but only one left eye means that he will be empty
spirituality and shall rule the world and earn wealth as U.K & U.S.A.
Euro Russia are doing.
>
> 2…..the 2nd underlined Para <> Allah will reveal upon Messiah (a.s)
which proves that the revelations are not closed for ever and reject
your claim that till qiyamah there shall be no revelation from Allah
after holy Prophet's death.  <> Allah will reveal to Jesus that he has
brought such nations that no one can fight them and Muslims are at
receiving end for the last 500 years. U.K was the supper power of the
18th  & 19th century and U.S.A is 20th &21st centaury super power and
no one can deny that they are not  ruling the world and no one was
able to fight them in the past or even today. The Muslim countries are
begging for their survival. Libya decision & Pakistan roll is rock
solid proof.<>

>
>
>
> 3…..3rd underlined Para challenge the majority to explain which
Sahaba (companion) went to sky along with messiah and will come down
to earth. <>
>
> 4…. the majority claims that messiah will come down as ordinary
umati only not as apostle but in the same Hadith he is called
Nabi-Allah 4 times which reject their claim. Further it is agreed by
all when Messiah (a.s) will come down it will binding for all Muslims
to bring belief on Him and any one refuses will be out of the fold of
islam and will be disobeyer of Allah & His holy Prophet Muhammad
(s.a.w) as holy Prophet advised that when he will come every one must
bring belief on him and bringing belief on him is bringing belief on
me. Please note there is no need to bring belief on any mujadad,
waliullah or ummati what so ever. Can you deny?
>
> As per Old Testament (malaki nabi) it is clearly mentioned that
prophet Aaliya (a.s) in a ball of fire went up to sky…… Muses tell
them that a Messiah will come and inform about the symbol of that
Messiah will be that Aaliya (Ilyas) prophet will come down to earth
before him & when Messiah Ibne Maryam claimed that he is prophet of
Allah the rabbis of yahood become His enemy (alike today's ulama
become the enemy) of Messiah (a.s) and went to Palatos the ruler to
stop him preaching but Palatos asked them to go to Messiah and ask him
to clarify how he becomes Messiah. A group of rabies' went to him and
asked him who u are. He said Messiah then they asked who's that other
man, He replied he is Aaliya the rabbis said no he is Youhanna not
Aaliya the Messiah replied that he is Aaliya and i will not show u any
symbol (miracle) the rabbi's opened the old testament and said look
here it is clearly mentioned that Aaliya will come down from sky & u
in order to become Messiah making Youhanna the
>  Aaliya which proves that u are liar.? <> Maolana Maododi in his
tafseer mentioned in detail and called the Jews the most (badbakht)In
his interpretations of Torah  molana said that the meaning of Aaliya
Nabi went to sky are that Allah rewarded Aaliya after His death and
again coming down to earth  means that there shall be same
resemblances with the Aaliya of Youhanna( kindly read ) <>
>
> The following verses are the rock solid proof that Messiah Ibne
Maryam (a.s) had died like all other messengers of Allah has died.
>
> Surah  Al-Maida verse 75 <>
>
> Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the
apostles that
>
> Passed away before him.  His mother was a woman of truth.  They had
both to eat their (daily) food.  See how Allah doth makes His signs
clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the
truth! <>
>
> Allah says how He shows His sign which are very clear yet
unbelievers resist.
>
> How clearly it is said that they booth used to eat meal which is
past tense. All the messengers before Messiah had died then why you
all turn back to your heels when it's said that Messiah had died?
>
> Surah Al Imran verse 144 <>
>
> Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have
passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye
will turn back on your heels? he who turneth back doth no hurt to
Allah, Allah will reward the thankful. <>
>
> Here it is mentioned that the entire prophet before Muhammad
(p.b.u.h.) had passed away and Messiah (a.s) was prophet before
Muhammad (p.b.u.h) then how one can claim that He is still alive
against the law of Allah? Yet any one refuse to except the reality
shall never see Messiah (a.s) to come down to earth because these are
the words of Allah.
>
> Surah Al-Anbiya verse no 6 & 35 <>
>
> Nor did we give them bodies that ate no food nor were they exempt
from death. <> Read with fear of Allah and open your eye's that even
messengers of Allah can't survive without air water food nor they can
live thousands years of life in sky without food air water nor any one
exempted from death.
>
> Surah Al-Anbyia 34
>
> We appointed immortality for no mortal before thee. What! If thou
diest, can they be immortal!
>
> If Muhammad cannot live extraordinary life then no other prophet can
live such long life as you people presume which is against law of
Allah and if Muhammad has to die after natural life of 63 years then
no other prophet can get such unnatural long life but According to law
of Allah he must have been became absolute illiterate as per the.
>
> Verse no 5 of surah al-haj <>
>
> …… Then do we bring you out as babes then (foster you) that ye may
reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die and
some are sent back to the feeblest old age so that they know nothing
after having known (much).  <>
>
> The majority claims that
>
> Surah Al-Nisa verse 157 & 158
>
> That they said (in boast) "we killed Christ Jesus the son of  Mary
the apostle of Allah"; but they killed him not nor crucified him but
so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full
of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow
for of a surety they killed him not. but Allah took him up unto
himself. Allah was ever might wise. <>
>
> The doubts are in the minds of Christian and Jews not in mind of
true Muslim. It also said with proud that Allah changed the face of a
non believer with face of his messenger so that the people may be
deceived that Jesus was crucified to death. This is the greatest
insult to the greatness of Allah and those people even not afraid of
the consequence. If Allah wants to save his messenger why he took him
up. Is Allah afraid of his creature that they will kill his
messenger?. Why Allah did not took up Muhammad (p.b.u.h) when non
believers made their mind to kill Him in spite of the facts that he is
the most beloved messenger of Allah. No messenger of Allah could be
killed because it against the <>
>
> Surah al-Mujadila 21 <>
>
> Allah hath decreed: lo! i verily shall conquer, i and my messengers.
lo! Allah is strong, almighty. <>
>
> It is claimed with loud and shout that the following verse is
undeniable proof that messiah has taken up to sky but before this
conclusion read the following verse carefully
>
> Al -Imran  55 <>
>
> ( iz qa_lalla_hu ya_ 'isa_ inni mutawaffika wa ra_fi'uka ilayya wa
mutahhiruka minal lazina kafaru_ wa ja_'ilul lazinattaba'u_ka fauqal
lazina kafaru_ ila_ yaumil qiya_mah(ti), summa ilayya marji'ukum fa
ahkumu bainakum fima_ kuntum fihi takhtalifu_n(a).
>
> 003.055  Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise
thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who
blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who
reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return
unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
>
> Firstly Messiah died (mutawaffika) then he was rewarded (wa ra fiuka
ilayya) not before his death.) then clear him of all blames of the
jews says that he was crucified and died therefore, he is not prophet
of Allah as per old testament and the blames of Christians that he was
crucified and died and after 3 days came alive and taken up by Allah
to himself to sky is absolutely wrong. Rejection of there faith and
belief is made by Allah in Qur'an not by any one else.  The follower
of Messiah shall be superior to those whom rejected the Jews. Compare
the presently that the Jews are living under the protection of
Christians i-e U.S.A U.K and Europe. All the promises are full filled
by Allah because the 3rd & 4th promise is after the death of messiah
(a.s) <>
>
> The following verse is referred by the majority that Messiah is
alive in the sky. <>
>
> Surah Al-Nisa verse no 159
>
> And there is none of the people of the book but must believe in him
before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness
against them <>
>
> That every book holder (the jews ) will not die unless they bring
belief on Messiah These meanings are absolutely self created according
to their claim and belief. Please remember that who blamed the
Messiah. Yahood and Nasaras Jews and Christians their blames already
discussed above. Here Allah says that at the time of every Jew's or
Christian's death they will admit that there blames were wrong by
saying that he was crucified and died and came alive again & went to
sky because it is law of Allah at the time of death bringing belief on
his messenger will give no fruit what so ever<>
>
>       The so called great Islamic scholar of the 20th centaury maulana
>
> Maodudi in his tafseer of Qur'an tafheem-ul-quran tried his level
best to change the meaning of the word mutawafika but at last accepted
that from Qur'an we cannot prove ascend of Messiah but Allah the most
power full can Does but forget that Allah never changes his Sunnet.
The beautiful building of their faith & belief did not allow them to
accept the reality that the holy prophet said that as bani Israel
divided into
>
> 72 sects & all of them will be thrown into fire of hell. My ummah
will be divided into 73 sects and except one naji (true) jamaat rest
72 will be thrown into fire of hell.  Why holy prophets announce the
same punishment for enemy of Messiah Ibne Maryam the Jews and for 72
Muslims sects if they are the true believes?
>
> Yet any religious/political party sect or society insist on their
self created/manufactured faith and belief against the true teaching
of islam is itself responsible and shall remain under the curse of
Allah with punishment & destruction which has already started and will
decide the fate of believers & non believers.
>
> With regards
>
> I.J.K.Baluch.
>
> 25th,July, 2005.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ruqaiyyah siddiqui <ruqaiyyah_s@h...> wrote:
> I think you should talk to a person who is a scholar in arabic
regarding the meaning of rafaa
>
> as for whether jesus is alive or not doesnt change the fact the
Mirza ghulam ahmad is not jesus..nor does it change the unislamic
behaviour that he had including the fact that he didnt pay zakat etc
made various unislamic claims, cursed people,( called everyone who
doesnt belive in him children of prostitues)
>
> whether jesus is alive or not doesnt change the fact that mirza
ghulam ahmad is not a prophet and there is soo much eveidence to show this
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "faizan_a86" <faizan_a86@y...>
> >Reply-To: qadianism@yahoogroups.com
> >To: qadianism@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [qadianism] Re: The Death of Jesus Christ
> >Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 20:20:58 -0000
> >
> >Khalid Qureshi Saheb,
> >Please do not take offence, but could you for once just please
> >discuss the matter at hand in a scholarly manner without references
> >to murabbis and what not.....
> >
> >You gave me a whole list of things which are worshipped... but I
> >don't think you read my post clearly.. Let me try again:
> >
> >16: 21. And those on whom they call besides Allah create not
> >anything,  but they are themselves created.
> >16: 22. They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will
> >raised.
> >
> >The verse says that the ppl who are worshipped "know not when they
> >will be raised".. So this automatically rules out angels, satan etc
> >because they are not like humans who will be raised to life again..
> >So you see, Allah confines the subject to only those who will be
> >raised up alive again after death, ie, humans, like me, you and
> >jesus..
> >And what does God say about these ppl who are called besides
> >Him?? "THEY ARE DEAD".. But if you say that Jesus is alive, then
> >you're admitting to a contradiction in the Quran..
> >
> >Ruqayya Saheba,
> >You have to understand, it is YOU who will create contradictions in
> >the Quran by sticking to the belief of Jesus being alive.. The Quran
> >does indeed clearly say that Jesus wasn't killed, and nor did he die
> >on the cross.. but does that automatically mean that he was raised
> >up to heaven? Are these the only 3 options available??Anyway, this
> >will lead to a whole long discussion as to what "rafa'a" means and I
> >dont want to get into that right now....
> >
> >I'm trying to approach this issue from a few other less used quranic
> >verses which have not been discussed, so let's stick to that...
> >
> >
> >Here's another verse I'd like everyone's opinion on:
> >
> >15: 49. Fatigue shall not touch them, nor shall they ever be ejected
> >therefrom.
> >
> >
> >This verse is regarding the occupants of Heaven. It is clearly
> >stating that they who enter heaven shall never be "ejected
> >therefrom". But according to your belief, Jesus will be made to
> >leave heaven and come back to earth? Are you not causing a
> >contradicton again??
> >
> >Here's another one for you think about:
> >: 50. "And will send him as a Messenger to the Children of
> >Israel...."
> >Jesus's mission was confined only to the Children of Israel and this
> >is testified by both the Bible and the Quran.. However if he
> >descends down again to fight all the kaffir and dajjals, then he
> >will become a world messenger on par with our Holy Prophet PBUH.. So
> >as Jesus is descending to save the world, the Quran will be
> >testifying to his mission only being confined to BaniIsrael.. yet
> >another contradiction you'd cause!!!
> >
> >There's more I could give you, but lets discuss these above 3
> >references first..
> >Looking for a quick response and a friendly, scholarly exchange of
> >ideas! :)
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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--- In qadianism@yahoogroups.com, ilyas javed <ijkbaluch@y...> wrote:
> The beautiful building of their faith & belief did not allow them to
accept the reality that the holy prophet said that as bani Israel
divided into 72 sects & all of them will be thrown into fire of hell.
My ummah will be divided into 73 sects and except one naji (true)
jamaat rest 72 will be thrown into fire of hell.  Why holy prophets
announce the same punishment for enemy of Messiah Ibne Maryam the Jews
and for 72 Muslims sects if they are the true believes?

qadiyani morabbis are good at ignoramous talk. but u know, they make no
sense. i mean, don't they say some moslems say jesus has died? but they
think they're kafer because they're not qadiyani! how about lahoris?
they say jesus is dead, but qadiyanis think they're going to hell
anyhow! this's proof that Iliyas is again talking morabbi talk and
lying on god. fact is that qadiyani morabbis are going to hell for
lying on God & being moshreks that believe in mirza's family more than
god. all his self-invented talk is not changing the fact.

you are putting your own invented immaginatry belief into the mouth of Holy Prophet ( s.a.w) that after the nazool of Hazarat Essa (a.s) the ummah will unite and there will be only one religon in the world i_e Islam which is against Quran?

Let refer the Verse & Hadees with full  particular?

My dear neither it had happened in the life of our Holy Prophet (s.a.w) that the whole world  become muslim nor it will accure till qiyamah because unbelievers always remain as you all are denying the  truth today.

Mr. Ilyas,

It is true that the ummah has been divide in to many
sect but our Holy Prophet (PBUH) him self prophesised
that after his rehlat there will 72 sects in his ummah
and our Holy Prophet(PBUH) also prophesised that after
hazrat esa (PBUH)’s nazool the ummah will unite and
their will be only one religion in the world and that
would be Islam.
mirza qadiyani claimed to be the Massayah and you
people believed him as the Massayah .as we can see
that let alone the ummah YOUR OWN JAMMAT HAS BEEN and
IS BEEN divided in many groups, this proves mirza
qadiyan's claims to be the Massayah where false and he
was not the Massaih but a lair.

Apart from this lie there are many other lies, we can
prove with his own writing,he was a big lire.

What will you call mirza qhulam qadiyani Nabi,massiyah
or a lair Mr Ilyas?


KHATMENUBUWWAT ACADEMY LONDON.
11,july,2005



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Dear brother Faizan,

Whether Jesus is alive or dead, in the heavens or not, is not as relevant as whether proving
it either way would make Mirza Sahib a prophet.

The only reason Ahmadis expend so much energy trying to prove that Jesus is dead (and
according to Mirza Sahib, died in several different places) is so that Mirza Sahib's claim to
be a metaphorical Isa (as) can be established.

If Jesus is going to come back again, only THE Jesus will come. There is no mention in the
Qur'an of any Messiah other than Isa (as) - and the ahadith, if you as an Ahmadi believe in
them, talk only of Isa (as) and not a metaphorical Isa. There is no mention in any authentic
Islamic literature of any metaphorical Isa. Interestingly, there is also no mention of a
second advent of RasulAllah (saw) anywhere either. Finally, Imam Mahdi in the ahadith is
not the same person as Isa (as).

We really should stop any conjecture about Isa (as) as Mirza Sahib was prone to do, as
Allah (swt) has forbidden this:

Sura An-Nisa, 157:
'That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of
Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them,
and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only
conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- '


--- In qadianism@yahoogroups.com, "faizan_a86" wrote:
> Khalid Qureshi Saheb,
> Please do not take offence, but could you for once just please
> discuss the matter at hand in a scholarly manner without references
> to murabbis and what not.....
>
> You gave me a whole list of things which are worshipped... but I
> don't think you read my post clearly.. Let me try again:
>
> 16: 21. And those on whom they call besides Allah create not
> anything, but they are themselves created.
> 16: 22. They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will
> raised.
>
> The verse says that the ppl who are worshipped "know not when they
> will be raised".. So this automatically rules out angels, satan etc
> because they are not like humans who will be raised to life again..
> So you see, Allah confines the subject to only those who will be
> raised up alive again after death, ie, humans, like me, you and
> jesus..
> And what does God say about these ppl who are called besides
> Him?? "THEY ARE DEAD".. But if you say that Jesus is alive, then
> you're admitting to a contradiction in the Quran..
>
> Ruqayya Saheba,
> You have to understand, it is YOU who will create contradictions in
> the Quran by sticking to the belief of Jesus being alive.. The Quran
> does indeed clearly say that Jesus wasn't killed, and nor did he die
> on the cross.. but does that automatically mean that he was raised
> up to heaven? Are these the only 3 options available??Anyway, this
> will lead to a whole long discussion as to what "rafa'a" means and I
> dont want to get into that right now....
>
> I'm trying to approach this issue from a few other less used quranic
> verses which have not been discussed, so let's stick to that...
>
>
> Here's another verse I'd like everyone's opinion on:
>
> 15: 49. Fatigue shall not touch them, nor shall they ever be ejected
> therefrom.
>
>
> This verse is regarding the occupants of Heaven. It is clearly
> stating that they who enter heaven shall never be "ejected
> therefrom". But according to your belief, Jesus will be made to
> leave heaven and come back to earth? Are you not causing a
> contradicton again??
>
> Here's another one for you think about:
> : 50. "And will send him as a Messenger to the Children of
> Israel...."
> Jesus's mission was confined only to the Children of Israel and this
> is testified by both the Bible and the Quran.. However if he
> descends down again to fight all the kaffir and dajjals, then he
> will become a world messenger on par with our Holy Prophet PBUH.. So
> as Jesus is descending to save the world, the Quran will be
> testifying to his mission only being confined to BaniIsrael.. yet
> another contradiction you'd cause!!!
>
> There's more I could give you, but lets discuss these above 3
> references first..
> Looking for a quick response and a friendly, scholarly exchange of
> ideas! :)





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no, it's the qadiyanis morabbis who are greedy, illitrate & without
faith, ilyas. how glad u show ur real face. comparing ur impostor to
prophet Mohammad(SAAW)? yeah, by ur stupid logic all impostors was a
true prophet too. ignorant/liar morabbis forget what they say mirza
was to do! after all this time, he was a failure & not the salvior u
guys keep telling qadiyanis. ur answer is proof of that. yeah, burn
in ur own hate for moslims & islam.

--- In qadianism@yahoogroups.com, ilyas javed <ijkbaluch@y...> wrote:
> Mr. Bawa,
> You people are  absalute illitrate & unaware of the fact that your
claims leads towards the disgrace of our holy prophet (s.a.w) by
saying that split of few persons from Jamaat Ahmadya  prove's the
failed  prophycy of Messiah Maud ( a.s) but forget altogather that
after the death of our beloved Prophet (s.a.w) what kind of split and
fights  between the companios  history has recorded.
> Are you dare enough to describe it as the ( N. Z) the failed
prophecy & false faith & belief of our holy Prophet?.
> Think again & again before such non sense & stupid claims. Please
note that your days of joy & happiness are over and now the days of
punishment has already underway and you and your comming generations
will experiance it.
>
> Can you numbered the split in one of your sect Ahlay Sunnet Al
Jammat & left the other 71,s division & split?
> What will you call it Mr. blind Bawe?
> I.J.K.baluch.
> 6th, Julu, 2005
> sohailbawa@y... wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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Mr. Ilyas,

It is true that the ummah has been divide in to many
sect but our Holy Prophet (PBUH) him self prophesised
that after his rehlat there will 72 sects in his ummah
and our Holy Prophet(PBUH) also prophesised that after
hazrat esa (PBUH)’s nazool the ummah will unite and
their will be only one religion in the world and that
would be Islam.
mirza qadiyani claimed to be the Massayah and you
people believed him as the Massayah .as we can see
that let alone the ummah YOUR OWN JAMMAT HAS BEEN and
IS BEEN divided in many groups, this proves mirza
qadiyan's claims to be the Massayah where false and he
was not the Massaih but a lair.

Apart from this lie there are many other lies, we can
prove with his own writing,he was a big lire.

What will you call mirza qhulam qadiyani Nabi,massiyah
or a lair Mr Ilyas?


KHATMENUBUWWAT ACADEMY LONDON.
11,july,2005



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faizan saheb, please don't take offence, but i don't think scholarly
people do this kinda arguing. i mean, this is all made up & not proof
for anything. fact is qadiyani morabbis who taught u this kinda stuff
have got no proof & arguments you gave show that they've got no proof.

--- In qadianism@yahoogroups.com, "faizan_a86" <faizan_a86@y...>
wrote:
> Khalid Qureshi Saheb,
> Please do not take offence, but could you for once just please
> discuss the matter at hand in a scholarly manner without references
> to murabbis and what not.....
>
> You gave me a whole list of things which are worshipped... but I
> don't think you read my post clearly.. Let me try again:
>
> 16: 21. And those on whom they call besides Allah create not
> anything,  but they are themselves created.
> 16: 22. They are dead, not living; and they know not when they
will
> raised.
>
> The verse says that the ppl who are worshipped "know not when they
> will be raised".. So this automatically rules out angels, satan etc
> because they are not like humans who will be raised to life again..
> So you see, Allah confines the subject to only those who will be
> raised up alive again after death, ie, humans, like me, you and
> jesus..
> And what does God say about these ppl who are called besides
> Him?? "THEY ARE DEAD".. But if you say that Jesus is alive, then
> you're admitting to a contradiction in the Quran..
>
> Ruqayya Saheba,
> You have to understand, it is YOU who will create contradictions in
> the Quran by sticking to the belief of Jesus being alive.. The
Quran
> does indeed clearly say that Jesus wasn't killed, and nor did he
die
> on the cross.. but does that automatically mean that he was raised
> up to heaven? Are these the only 3 options available??Anyway, this
> will lead to a whole long discussion as to what "rafa'a" means and
I
> dont want to get into that right now....
>
> I'm trying to approach this issue from a few other less used
quranic
> verses which have not been discussed, so let's stick to that...
>
>
> Here's another verse I'd like everyone's opinion on:
>
> 15: 49. Fatigue shall not touch them, nor shall they ever be
ejected
> therefrom.
>
>
> This verse is regarding the occupants of Heaven. It is clearly
> stating that they who enter heaven shall never be "ejected
> therefrom". But according to your belief, Jesus will be made to
> leave heaven and come back to earth? Are you not causing a
> contradicton again??
>
> Here's another one for you think about:
> : 50. "And will send him as a Messenger to the Children of
> Israel...."
> Jesus's mission was confined only to the Children of Israel and
this
> is testified by both the Bible and the Quran.. However if he
> descends down again to fight all the kaffir and dajjals, then he
> will become a world messenger on par with our Holy Prophet PBUH..
So
> as Jesus is descending to save the world, the Quran will be
> testifying to his mission only being confined to BaniIsrael.. yet
> another contradiction you'd cause!!!
>
> There's more I could give you, but lets discuss these above 3
> references first..
> Looking for a quick response and a friendly, scholarly exchange of
> ideas! :)

Dear Faizan

Thank you for your comments. Indeed, we should be willing to study the
Qur'an closely, and with an open mind. I hope you will take my
comments below in the honest spirit of productive discussion and learning.

> 16: 21. And those on whom they call besides Allah create not
> anything,  but they are themselves created.
> 16: 22. They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will
> raised.
>
> The verse says that the ppl who are worshipped "know not when they
> will be raised".. So this automatically rules out angels, satan etc
> because they are not like humans who will be raised to life again..
> So you see, Allah confines the subject to only those who will be
> raised up alive again after death, ie, humans, like me, you and
> jesus..

But why should one assume that angels, jinn, etc do not die? See 39:68
for example. Certainly, jinn will face judgment too, which implies
that they too will be resurrected.

> 15: 49. Fatigue shall not touch them, nor shall they ever be ejected
> therefrom.
>
>
> This verse is regarding the occupants of Heaven. It is clearly
> stating that they who enter heaven shall never be "ejected
> therefrom". But according to your belief, Jesus will be made to
> leave heaven and come back to earth? Are you not causing a
> contradicton again??

No, not necessarily, unless one makes the assumption that Prophet
Jesus (pbuh) has entered the same Garden of Heaven which has been
prepared for the believers in the Hereafter. However, it is quite
conceivable that he is elsewhere in the heavens. Furthermore, the
context of the verse you cite is that of the believers in the
Hereafter, and hence the natural implication is that after the
believers (plural) have entered Heaven on the Day of Judgment, they
will not be fatigued, taken out, etc.

> Here's another one for you think about:
> : 50. "And will send him as a Messenger to the Children of
> Israel...."
> Jesus's mission was confined only to the Children of Israel and this
> is testified by both the Bible and the Quran.. However if he
> descends down again to fight all the kaffir and dajjals, then he
> will become a world messenger on par with our Holy Prophet PBUH.. So
> as Jesus is descending to save the world, the Quran will be
> testifying to his mission only being confined to BaniIsrael.. yet
> another contradiction you'd cause!!!

Actually, there is no contradiction. He was indeed sent as a messenger
to Bani Isra'il, but when he returns, he will not be coming in the
capacity of a messenger, rather as a follower of Prophet Muhammad
(pbuh). At that time, he will speak to mankind at large, as we find in
the Qur'an.
"And he [Jesus] shall speak to _mankind_ in the cradle and in middle
age, and [he shall be] among the righteous.'' Q[3:46]

With best wishes,
-sl

Dear brother Faizan,

Whether Jesus is alive or dead, in the heavens or not, is not as relevant as
whether proving
it either way would make Mirza Sahib a prophet.

The only reason Ahmadis expend so much energy trying to prove that Jesus is dead
(and
according to Mirza Sahib, died in several different places) is so that Mirza
Sahib's claim to
be a metaphorical Isa (as) can be established.

If Jesus is going to come back again, only THE Jesus will come. There is no
mention in the
Qur'an of any Messiah other than Isa (as) - and the ahadith, if you as an Ahmadi
believe in
them, talk only of Isa (as) and not a metaphorical Isa. There is no mention in
any authentic
Islamic literature of any metaphorical Isa. Interestingly, there is also no
mention of a
second advent of RasulAllah (saw) anywhere either. Finally, Imam Mahdi in the
ahadith is
not the same person as Isa (as).

We really should stop any conjecture about Isa (as) as Mirza Sahib was prone to
do, as
Allah (swt) has forbidden this:

Sura An-Nisa, 157:
'That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the
Messenger of
Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to
appear to them,
and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge,
but only
conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- '


--- In qadianism@yahoogroups.com, "faizan_a86" <faizan_a86@y...> wrote:
> Khalid Qureshi Saheb,
> Please do not take offence, but could you for once just please
> discuss the matter at hand in a scholarly manner without references
> to murabbis and what not.....
>
> You gave me a whole list of things which are worshipped... but I
> don't think you read my post clearly.. Let me try again:
>
> 16: 21. And those on whom they call besides Allah create not
> anything,  but they are themselves created.
> 16: 22. They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will
> raised.
>
> The verse says that the ppl who are worshipped "know not when they
> will be raised".. So this automatically rules out angels, satan etc
> because they are not like humans who will be raised to life again..
> So you see, Allah confines the subject to only those who will be
> raised up alive again after death, ie, humans, like me, you and
> jesus..
> And what does God say about these ppl who are called besides
> Him?? "THEY ARE DEAD".. But if you say that Jesus is alive, then
> you're admitting to a contradiction in the Quran..
>
> Ruqayya Saheba,
> You have to understand, it is YOU who will create contradictions in
> the Quran by sticking to the belief of Jesus being alive.. The Quran
> does indeed clearly say that Jesus wasn't killed, and nor did he die
> on the cross.. but does that automatically mean that he was raised
> up to heaven? Are these the only 3 options available??Anyway, this
> will lead to a whole long discussion as to what "rafa'a" means and I
> dont want to get into that right now....
>
> I'm trying to approach this issue from a few other less used quranic
> verses which have not been discussed, so let's stick to that...
>
>
> Here's another verse I'd like everyone's opinion on:
>
> 15: 49. Fatigue shall not touch them, nor shall they ever be ejected
> therefrom.
>
>
> This verse is regarding the occupants of Heaven. It is clearly
> stating that they who enter heaven shall never be "ejected
> therefrom". But according to your belief, Jesus will be made to
> leave heaven and come back to earth? Are you not causing a
> contradicton again??
>
> Here's another one for you think about:
> : 50. "And will send him as a Messenger to the Children of
> Israel...."
> Jesus's mission was confined only to the Children of Israel and this
> is testified by both the Bible and the Quran.. However if he
> descends down again to fight all the kaffir and dajjals, then he
> will become a world messenger on par with our Holy Prophet PBUH.. So
> as Jesus is descending to save the world, the Quran will be
> testifying to his mission only being confined to BaniIsrael.. yet
> another contradiction you'd cause!!!
>
> There's more I could give you, but lets discuss these above 3
> references first..
> Looking for a quick response and a friendly, scholarly exchange of
> ideas! :)

my question is: did u come up with this idea? why u guys never say that
this is what mirza's family has told u? sorry, but to me it's like
mafia & u guys don't wanna say they came up with these ideas.

u went wrong because u didn't think about context. this soorah is from
makkah time when prophet Mohammad(SAAW) was talking to moshreqs of
qoreish. so, 'they' in ayah is about moshreqa of qoreish & not anybody
else.

what mirza's family has said is lie and doesn't make no sense if u
think about it. do u think there're no people even today that worship
other live people? see? qadiyani idea is ridiculus too.

--- In qadianism@yahoogroups.com, "faizan_a86" <faizan_a86@y...> wrote:
> 16: 21. And those on whom they call besides Allah create not
anything,
> but they are themselves created.
>
> 16: 22. They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will
be
> raised.
>
> Please tell me where exactly I go wrong:
>
> 1) The Quran says that those whom they call beside Allah are dead and
> not living. It confines the object of "those whom they call beside
> Allah" to only those who will be raised to life again, that is, all
> human beings.
>
> 2) Jesus was a human being and is one of those "whom they call beside
> Allah"
>
> 3) Therefore, Jesus is dead.

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Where you went wrong? You're generalizing things without authority and
saying things of Allah for which you've no right.

It's very easy to see the logic of Kadiani morabbis is wrong.
Question: Are angels alive or dead? How about Satan? How about snakes
you can see in the zoo?

Well, there're people who worship them. How come they're not dead?
Want proof?


Angels are worshipped!
http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=worship

Satan is worshipped!
http://www.churchofsatan.com/
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/10/24/uk.devilworship/

Snakes are worshipped!
http://www.aryabhatt.com/fast_fair_festival/Festivals/Naga%20Panchami%20of%20AP.\
htm






--- In qadianism@yahoogroups.com, "faizan_a86" <faizan_a86@y...> wrote:
> 16: 21. And those on whom they call besides Allah create not anything,
> but they are themselves created.
>
> 16: 22. They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will be
> raised.
>
> Please tell me where exactly I go wrong:
>
> 1) The Quran says that those whom they call beside Allah are dead and
> not living. It confines the object of "those whom they call beside
> Allah" to only those who will be raised to life again, that is, all
> human beings.
>
> 2) Jesus was a human being and is one of those "whom they call beside
> Allah"
>
> 3) Therefore, Jesus is dead.