(Steve G)
My maps of Canada are limited, but Topozone.com shows the Alaska
portion of Mount Vancouver to be 15,979 feet.
How high is the point in Canada?
I have several references that list Mount Vancouver
as being in Alaska (although the elevation
is usually listed as 15,700 feet).

	 (Andy)
	 Here at home the AK Delorme (USGS 1:250,000) shows Mount Vancouver
	 at 15,700', on the border, and a point about 1.5 miles north,
	 in Canada, only 15,000+ (500).

	 The Whitehouse Air map shows the border point as 15,685, and the
	 Canadian point about 1.5 miles north at 15,787.

	 The 15,685 point is listed as Mount Good Neighbor on George Bell's
	 web site http://www.geocities.com/~gibell/fourteeners/biggies.html

	 That said, the actual 15' quad needs to be looked at. I'll
	 do that in a week, unless someone settles the mystery before
	 then.

			 - Andy

My maps of Canada are limited, but Topozone.com shows the Alaska portion of
Mount Vancouver to be 15,979 feet.  How high is the point in Canada?  I have
several references that list Mount Vancouver as being in Alaska (although the
elevation is usually listed as 15,700 feet).

Steve.

I hesitate to Olsonize Olson, but Mount Vancouver does not touch BC.  The
portion of Canada that it bounds is the Yukon Territory.

Steve.

(David Metzler - AK prominence list)
One question though: what happened to Mt. Vancouver?

(David Olson)
Mt V- has two summits and the higher one is wholly in BC.

	 (Andy)
	 May the best David win ;)

	 Usually the US manages to get part or all of these Canadian Border
	 peaks, looks like we slipped up here - maybe an invasion is in
	 order ?

	 By the way,
		 cut off for AK top 50 is  5,317+
		 cut off for lower 48 finest is  5,217+

	 Anyone care to hazard a guess on how Mexico or Canada will fare here ?

	 Note that Canada gets to share Elias, Fairweather, Mount Cook,
	 and perhaps some others.

(David Metzler - AK prominence list)
One question though: what happened to Mt. Vancouver? Am I missing
something? I have it at 9220 feet prominence +/- 164 feet.

	 (Andy)
	 Thanks - I'll have to check this. Maybe there is something bigger
	 just over the Canadian border ? Or maybe it is a goof. AK and TX
	 were the only prominence lists I did completely without aid from
	 Edwards computer program - it is possible I missed a peak on the
	 manual review.

Thanks to both Steven G. and Andy M. for their timely responses.
I figured the prominence was low (by Alaskan standards) since
Foraker almost sits on top of Denali. It is remarkable that a
7,000+ ft prominence, quite impressive elsewhere, takes a back
seat in "the great land".

Steven Gruhn wrote:

> >>> martin@... 08/24/00 02:50PM >>>
> (Foraker Prominence)
> >> (Andy Martin)In section 6 there is an unnamed
>         pass 10200- (100), which I'm taking as the "key saddle".
>
> (Steve)
>
> Andy is right on top of things.  Evidently, he has become accustomed to being
Olsonized and, therefore, has all the correct information at his fingertips. 
Fifty lashes with a wet piece of webbing for me for questioning the Authority.
>

>>> martin@... 08/24/00 02:50PM >>>
(Foraker Prominence)
>> (Andy Martin)In section 6 there is an unnamed
	 pass 10200- (100), which I'm taking as the "key saddle".

(Steve)

Andy is right on top of things.  Evidently, he has become accustomed to being
Olsonized and, therefore, has all the correct information at his fingertips. 
Fifty lashes with a wet piece of webbing for me for questioning the Authority.

(Foraker Prominence)
Take a look on Topozone.com at the elevation of Kahiltna Pass in Alaska.
I believe this is the lowest point on the ridge between Mount Foraker and
Mount McKinley.  The elevation of Kahiltna Pass on Topozone is reported
as being between 10,300 and 10,400 feet.  This would seem to decrease
the prominence reported by Andy.  Andy, is there another pass you were
looking at?

	 yes - use topozone to locate Kahiltna Pass, then follow the ridge
	 west and SW to Foraker over Kahiltna Dome. The total distance
	 travelled is about 5 miles. In section 6 there is an unnamed
	 pass 10200- (100), which I'm taking as the "key saddle".

Take a look on Topozone.com at the elevation of Kahiltna Pass in Alaska.  I
believe this is the lowest point on the ridge between Mount Foraker and Mount
McKinley.  The elevation of Kahiltna Pass on Topozone is reported as being
between 10,300 and 10,400 feet.  This would seem to decrease the prominence
reported by Andy.  Andy, is there another pass you were looking at?

Steve.

(Andy)
	 I forgot HI yesterday - the 10K prominence peaks there are
Mauna Kea       Mauna Kea       13,796  0           sea level, Hawaii
Haleakala       Kilohana        10,023  0           sea level, Maui

	 This makes exactly 10 peaks in the US that have 10,000'
	 prominence - Mauna Kea, Haleakala, Rainier, Whitney,
	 Denali, Fairweather, Blackburn, Hayes, Saint Elias, Marcus Baker.

	 4 "EZ" ones,  6 more a tad tougher.

(Adam)
>>Could someone provide me the prominence of Mt Foraker

	 The AK list picking up from yesterday and down to Foraker is attached.

(David)
Is the AK finest list in a state where it can be posted? I'd be very
curious to see it.

	 The top 50 are submitted for publication, so I'd rather not post
	 list openly here yet. However, some of you have already seen the
	 list, and those who want a to get a private copy can contact me
	 at martin@....

PEAK            PEAK MAPS           PROMINENCE  SADDLE          SADDLE MAP
Shishaldin Vol. 138 False Pass D-6      9,414           0       sea level
Redoubt Volcano  68 Kenai B-8           9,097+  1,100- (100)    Kenai D-8
Mt Torbert       80 Tyonek B-7          8,663+  2,750- (50)     McGrath A-1 or
Talkeetna C-6
Mt Veniaminof   139 Chignik A-4         8,175+  50- (50)        Chignik C-4
Pavlof Volcano  138 Port Moller B-6     8,150+  50- (50)        Port Moller C-5
Mt Hubbard       37 Mt Saint Elias B-3  7,950+  7,000- (500)    Mt St. Elias
1:250K
Iliamna Volcano  68 Lake Clark A-1      7,816+  2,200- (100)    Lake Clark A-1,
Kenai C-8
Mt Cook          36 Mt St. Elias A-6    7,660+  6,100- (100)    Mt St. Elias A-5
Mt Sanford       97 Gulkana A-1         7,637+  8,600- (100)    Gulkana A-1 or
McCarthy D-8
Mt Tom White     75 Bering Glacier C-8  7,591+  3,600- (100)    Bering Glacier
C-4 & C-5
Mt Chamberlin   137 Mt Michelson B-2    7,520+  ?1,500- ?
   or Mt Isto
Mt Kimball      107 Mt Hayes A-2        7,350+  2,950- (50)     Gulkana D-5
Mt Foraker       93 Talkeetna D-3       7,200+  10,200- (100)   Mt McKinley A-3

Mount Foraker (17,400) has a prominence of 7,050 feet above Kahiltna Pass
(10,350 +/- 50), the pass separating it from Mount McKinley (20,320).

Steve.

>>> helman@... 08/24/00 08:46AM >>>
Could someone provide me the prominence of Mt Foraker,
Denali's 17,400 ft neighbor?  I noted this to Edward on a recent
climbing foray and, despite his voluminous knowledge on the
subject, was stymied by this seemingly innocuous query.

      Thanks, Adam Helman

David Metzler wrote:

> (Andy Martin wrote:)
>         There is some overlap with the AK finest and lower 48 finest lists,
>         the 8 peaks on these lists that exceed 10,000' prominence are:
>
>                 ALASKA'S FIFTY FINEST
> PEAK            PEAK MAPS           PROMINENCE  SADDLE        SADDLE MAP
>
> Mt McKinley     103 Mt McKinley A-3     20,156+ 160- (33)     Nicaragua 3050
III
> Mt Fairweather   30 Mt Fairweather D-5  12,800+ ?2,500- (500) Skagway 1:250K
> Mt Blackburn     88 McCarthy C-7        11,590+ 4,800- (100)  McCarthy C-3
> Mt Hayes        106 Mt Hayes C-6        11,482+ 2,350- (50)   Healy B-5 &
Nabesn
> a D-6
> Mt Saint Elias   36 Mt Saint Elias B-8  11,008+ 7,000- (500)  Mt St. Elias
1:250
> K
> Mt Marcus Baker  84 Anchorage B-2       10,726+ 2,450- (50)   Gulkana B-5,
A-6,
> B-6
>
> -----
>
> Is the AK finest list in a state where it can be posted? I'd be very
> curious to see it.
>
> Dave M.
>

Could someone provide me the prominence of Mt Foraker,
Denali's 17,400 ft neighbor?  I noted this to Edward on a recent
climbing foray and, despite his voluminous knowledge on the
subject, was stymied by this seemingly innocuous query.

      Thanks, Adam Helman

David Metzler wrote:

> (Andy Martin wrote:)
>         There is some overlap with the AK finest and lower 48 finest lists,
>         the 8 peaks on these lists that exceed 10,000' prominence are:
>
>                 ALASKA'S FIFTY FINEST
> PEAK            PEAK MAPS           PROMINENCE  SADDLE        SADDLE MAP
>
> Mt McKinley     103 Mt McKinley A-3     20,156+ 160- (33)     Nicaragua 3050
III
> Mt Fairweather   30 Mt Fairweather D-5  12,800+ ?2,500- (500) Skagway 1:250K
> Mt Blackburn     88 McCarthy C-7        11,590+ 4,800- (100)  McCarthy C-3
> Mt Hayes        106 Mt Hayes C-6        11,482+ 2,350- (50)   Healy B-5 &
Nabesn
> a D-6
> Mt Saint Elias   36 Mt Saint Elias B-8  11,008+ 7,000- (500)  Mt St. Elias
1:250
> K
> Mt Marcus Baker  84 Anchorage B-2       10,726+ 2,450- (50)   Gulkana B-5,
A-6,
> B-6
>
> -----
>
> Is the AK finest list in a state where it can be posted? I'd be very
> curious to see it.
>
> Dave M.
>

(Andy Martin wrote:)
         There is some overlap with the AK finest and lower 48 finest lists,
         the 8 peaks on these lists that exceed 10,000' prominence are:

                 ALASKA'S FIFTY FINEST
PEAK            PEAK MAPS           PROMINENCE  SADDLE        SADDLE MAP

Mt McKinley     103 Mt McKinley A-3     20,156+ 160- (33)     Nicaragua 3050 III
Mt Fairweather   30 Mt Fairweather D-5  12,800+ ?2,500- (500) Skagway 1:250K
Mt Blackburn     88 McCarthy C-7        11,590+ 4,800- (100)  McCarthy C-3
Mt Hayes        106 Mt Hayes C-6        11,482+ 2,350- (50)   Healy B-5 & Nabesn
a D-6
Mt Saint Elias   36 Mt Saint Elias B-8  11,008+ 7,000- (500)  Mt St. Elias 1:250
K
Mt Marcus Baker  84 Anchorage B-2       10,726+ 2,450- (50)   Gulkana B-5, A-6,
B-6


-----

Is the AK finest list in a state where it can be posted? I'd be very
curious to see it.

Dave M.

(David Metzler - improved worlds finest list)
>>And to everyone else
>>who has worked on such a list, please give me your comments, suggestions,
>>corrections! I don't want to be seen as taking over, since I am a newbie
>>here. My apologies if I offend anyone.

	 (Andy)
	 Looks like a lot of good new work to me,
	 many thanks for posting it.

	 There is some overlap with the AK finest and lower 48 finest lists,
	 the 8 peaks on these lists that exceed 10,000' prominence are:

                 ALASKA'S FIFTY FINEST
PEAK            PEAK MAPS           PROMINENCE  SADDLE        SADDLE MAP

Mt McKinley     103 Mt McKinley A-3     20,156+ 160- (33)     Nicaragua 3050 III
Mt Fairweather   30 Mt Fairweather D-5  12,800+ ?2,500- (500) Skagway 1:250K
Mt Blackburn     88 McCarthy C-7        11,590+ 4,800- (100)  McCarthy C-3
Mt Hayes        106 Mt Hayes C-6        11,482+ 2,350- (50)   Healy B-5 &
Nabesna D-6
Mt Saint Elias   36 Mt Saint Elias B-8  11,008+ 7,000- (500)  Mt St. Elias
1:250K
Mt Marcus Baker  84 Anchorage B-2       10,726+ 2,450- (50)   Gulkana B-5, A-6,
B-6

         AMERICA'S FIFTY FINEST

PEAK                PEAK MAP & TOWNSHIP     PROM.   SADDLE      SADDLE MAP
WA Mount Rainier    Mt Rainier West 16N8E   13,210+ 1,200- (50) Vernon 82 L/6 BC
CA Mount Whitney    Mount Whitney 16S34E    10,071+ 4,420- (10) Coyote Peak NM

> David Metzler wrote:
> >
> > Hi all. If you look at the world prominence database on egroups you'll
> > see that I have added a number of peaks.
> Very good work.  My initial list was intended only to be a "seed".  It's
> wonderful to make it "real".

Thanks. It's a good excuse to look at a lot of cool maps.

> > Since some of the saddles
> > are not very precise, I figured it was important to note the error
> > bound.
> Does the error apply only to the saddle, or does it apply to the entire
> prominence if the peak elevation has an error?  Also does the error
> extend upward, downward, or both from the figure it applies to?
>
> If a peak's prominence saddle can be one of several on a ridge or divide
> and their possible elevation ranges overlap but are not identical, not
> all of the possible elevation range of some saddles will be usable.  My
> prominence software already handles these types of cases.  For example:
> suppose that the lowest saddle between Peak X and its parent is either
> Saddle A or Saddle B.  Saddle A is between the 2000 and 2500 foot
> contours and Saddle B is between the 2100 and 2200 foot contours.  If
> Saddle A is higher than 2200 feet, it cannot be the Peak X saddle
> because it would necessarily be higher than Saddle B.  Thus, the "usable
> elevation" for Saddle A is from 2000 to 2200 feet.  How are cases like
> this handled in your error figures?
>

The error bar listed is very rough. What I have in my personal spreadsheet
is a lowest possible lowest saddle elevation, a highest possible lowest
saddle elevation, and my own estimate (OK, guess).
The error I put in the table is just (high saddle-low saddle)/2.
Hence it does not include
the peak height uncertainty (which is always swamped by the saddle
uncertainty anyway) but more important it sometimes gives a slightly
inaccurate range of possible saddles, namely when my guess is not
in the middle of the possible range. If you have a question about a particular
peak, I can post the details of what I know. I couldn't see a way
to be more accurate within the constraints of the table.

I'm particularly interested in the peaks listed with large error bars,
so if anyone has good info on them, please post it!

David M.

David Metzler wrote:
>
> Hi all. If you look at the world prominence database on egroups you'll
> see that I have added a number of peaks.
Very good work.  My initial list was intended only to be a "seed".  It's
wonderful to make it "real".
> Since some of the saddles
> are not very precise, I figured it was important to note the error
> bound.
Does the error apply only to the saddle, or does it apply to the entire
prominence if the peak elevation has an error?  Also does the error
extend upward, downward, or both from the figure it applies to?

If a peak's prominence saddle can be one of several on a ridge or divide
and their possible elevation ranges overlap but are not identical, not
all of the possible elevation range of some saddles will be usable.  My
prominence software already handles these types of cases.  For example:
suppose that the lowest saddle between Peak X and its parent is either
Saddle A or Saddle B.  Saddle A is between the 2000 and 2500 foot
contours and Saddle B is between the 2100 and 2200 foot contours.  If
Saddle A is higher than 2200 feet, it cannot be the Peak X saddle
because it would necessarily be higher than Saddle B.  Thus, the "usable
elevation" for Saddle A is from 2000 to 2200 feet.  How are cases like
this handled in your error figures?


					 Edward "7.389056099" Earl
					 esquared@...
					 http://www.k-online.com/~esquared/eae.htm

> Nice update and extension of our old prominence list. I am especially
> pleased to see K2, Nanga Parbat, Kangchenjunga. The latter is close
> enough to Everest to be surprising. Could Dhaulagiri or Shisha Pangma
> also qualify?
>

Kangchenjunga surprised me too. The saddle is close to Kangchenjunga
on the Arun/Tsangpo divide. It is in a region marked "rigorous survey" on
an otherwise very sketchy DMA map.

Other than that region N of Kangchenjunga, the passes across the
Nepal/Tibet Himalaya tend to be close to or above 5000m, so Dhaulagiri
and Shisha would have prominence less than 3500m. I checked this
once but did not note the exact prominences. I plan to go back soon and
note the prominence of all of the 8000m peaks for comparison.


> I always like to consider there to be 7 great ranges and 1 isolate in
> Asia. These are the only ranges with peaks higher than the Andes. I was
> pleased to see the isolate and most of the range highpoints in the
> prominence list.  Have the others been checked yet (namely, Kunlun,
> Transhimalaya, and Pamir)?
>
> Himalaya
> Hindu Kush
> Karakoram
> Kunlun
> Pamirs
> Tien Shan
> Trans-Himalaya
>
> isolated: Minya Konka (same as Gongga Shan, I believe)

I assume you consider Kongur Shan to be the HP of the Kunlun Shan.
I have:

Peak       Ht     Saddle Prom   Err  Lon   Lat   Saddle Desc
Kommunizma 24590  13884  10706  492  73.5  39.3  near Karakul Lake
Kongur     25324  13445  11880  328  75    38    just W of Muztagata

The other peaks in the Pamir have much lower prominence than Kommunizma
(AKA Ismaili Samani Peak). The other peaks in the Kunlun top out
under 7200m and lie on the edge of the main Tibetan Plateau,
so the saddles are over 4000m. The Transhimalaya are similar,
topping out around 7300m and having at least 4000m saddles.


> I also frequently wonder whether any climber has completed this list.
> Does anyone know?
>

So the list is:
Range  Peak  Ht Prom Prom Rank (approx)
Himalaya Everest  29028 29028 1
Tien Shan Pobeda  24406 13251 22
Hindu Kush Tirich Mir 25230 12674 31
Karakoram K2  28251 12503 32
Daxue Shan Gongga  24790 12487 33
Kunlun  Kongur 	 25324 11880 47
Pamir  Kommunizma 24590 10706 60
Transhim. Noijinkangsang 23697 8000 >100?


Since very few people have climbed either Kongur Shan or
Noijinkangsang, I am quite sure that no one has climbed all
of these peaks. It would be an interesting goal.

An alternate list would be the top 8 prominent peaks in Asia:

Range  Peak  Ht Prom World Prom Rank (approx)
Himalaya Everest  29028 29028 1
Himalaya Nanga Parbat 26657 15174 13
Kamchatka Klyuchevskaya 15584 15092 14
Tien Shan Bogda Shan 18044 13943 15
Himalaya Kangchenjunga 28208 13773 17
Tien Shan Pobeda  24406 13251 22
Taiwan  Yu Shan  13114 13114 25
Himalaya Namcha Barwa 25446 12979 29 (very rough)

Again I'm sure no one has climbed all of these. Namcha Barwa
has only been climbed once, I believe.


Regards,
Dave Metzler

Nice update and extension of our old prominence list. I am especially
pleased to see K2, Nanga Parbat, Kangchenjunga. The latter is close
enough to Everest to be surprising. Could Dhaulagiri or Shisha Pangma
also qualify?

I always like to consider there to be 7 great ranges and 1 isolate in
Asia. These are the only ranges with peaks higher than the Andes. I was
pleased to see the isolate and most of the range highpoints in the
prominence list.  Have the others been checked yet (namely, Kunlun,
Transhimalaya, and Pamir)?

Himalaya
Hindu Kush
Karakoram
Kunlun
Pamirs
Tien Shan
Trans-Himalaya

isolated: Minya Konka (same as Gongga Shan, I believe)

I also frequently wonder whether any climber has completed this list.
Does anyone know?


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Hi all. If you look at the world prominence database on egroups you'll
see that I have added a number of peaks. Since some of the saddles
are not very precise, I figured it was important to note the error
bound. So I put it along with the saddle name (if any). I hope that's
not too unaesthetic. I also put Longitude/Latitude under Saddle Location
(negative Longitude is West, positive is East as per standard practice).
At the bottom of this message is a text version of the same data.
(So skip down there if you don't want the details!)
And to everyone else
who has worked on such a list, please give me your comments, suggestions,
corrections! I don't want to be seen as taking over, since I am a newbie
here. My apologies if I offend anyone.

A few notes, too wordy to put in the database:
1)A note on sources: most of this is from maps in the map libraries of
Rice University (where I was until recently) and the University of Florida
(where I am now). The latter is excellent. If you want to know where
I got a specific saddle please ask.

2)So far I have entered into the web database all of the peaks
that might conceivably have a 4000 meter prominence, according to my
research. I may soon enter in more.

3)Edward (and David), I hope you are somewhat satisfied
by the Orizaba and Waddington figures. (See the web version also.)
It turns out that along the divide leading from the Rockies to
Logan there are three places where the elevation gets down to 2300 to 2500
feet. For one of these I have a 1:50K map but for the others only 1:250K,
with 500 foot contours and a few helpful spot elevations. My guess
is the Yukon saddle is lower, but not by much. Similarly for Waddington
and Fairweather, both could have 2300-2500 foot saddles before they
reach the main divide, or the saddle could be one of the possibilities
mentioned for Orizaba.

4) As regards natural versus artificial: I haven't seen a case where it
makes a huge difference. But a few of the saddles below are man-made
channels, or lakes that drain into two rivers (usually artificially).
If you wanted to really go with the "natural" saddle, you'd have to do
some serious historico-topography. Hard!

5)David Olson: Mont Blanc is indeed interesting. The path goes east along the
south edge of Poland, then north through the Pripyet Marshes
(about 140m) then NE, skirting the north edge of the Dnieper and Volga
basins. It does not turn south to get to Elbrus since the Don-Volga
canal is at about 80m (and I think even the natural elevation is lower
than 100m, if you don't like canals). Instead it goes well north of Moscow,
over the Mariinsky Canal (120-140m, again not very different from the natural
topography) and then has to go over Ozero (Lake) Kubenskoye, at 107m, which has
two outlets. (Again, probably one is an artificial channel, but it doesn't
seem very deep.) From there it stays above 107m as it goes east to the Urals,
south along them, and then east again to Central Asia (say Pik Pobeda).
It might be able to go south instead, closer to the Aral sea, but it doesn't
matter.

6) A few peaks mentioned by others as worth checking:
Peak  Ht Prom Saddle Error S location
Karisimbi 14787 10686 4101 164 near Lake Victoria
Ritacuba Blanca 18021 11870 6152 82 -74.5 3 P. las Cruces
Gora Belukha 14783 10846 3937 1476 (HP of Altai Mtns.)
Bangeta  13520 10239 3281 1640 (HP of Finistere range)
Mt. Elgon 14178 9585 4593 820


The list:

Peak  Ht  Prom Saddle Error S lon S lat S descriptio
Everest  29035 29035 0 0
Aconcagua 22834 22834 0 0
Denali   20321 20236 85 0 	 Panama Canal
Kilimanjaro 19340 19340 0 0 	 Suez Canal
Cristobal Colon 18947 18044 902 82 -73 11 local
Logan    19550 17218 2333 11 -149 63.25 Broad Pass AK
Puncak Jaya 16502 16502 0 0
Citlaltepetl 18409 16069 2340 44 -136.5 60.75 Champagne YK
Vinson Massif 16066 16066 0 0
Elbrus   18510 15640 2871 328 43.5 42
Mont Blanc 15771 15420 351 3 39.5 59.5 L. Kubenskoye
Damavand 18386 15351 3035 328 62 29 SE Iran
Nanga Parbat 26657 15174 11483 95 75.5 34.5 Zoji La
Klyuchevskaya 15584 15092 492 164 164 60.5
Bogda Shan 18044 13943 4101 820 88 43.5 Near Urumqi
Mauna Kea 13796 13796 0 0
Kangchenjunga 28208 13773 14436 492 88 29
Margherita 16763 13771 2992 0 	 Lake Edward
Chimborazo 20702 13566 7136 82 -79.5 -5.8
Kinabalu 13455 13455 0 0
Ras Dashen 15092 13287 1804 164 	 Near L. Turkana
Pik Pobeda 24406 13251 11155 492 79.5 42.5 local
Rainier  14409 13245 1165 25 -119 50.5 Armstrong BC
Pico Bolivar 16411 13130 3281 131 -72 8 local
Yu Shan  13114 13114 0 0
Fairweather 15420 13090 2329 217 -123 54.5
Vol. Tajumulco 13816 13061 755 33 -95 16.7 Tehuantepec
Cameroon 13451 13041 410 66 9.25 4.5 local
Namcha Barwa 25446 12979 12467 1476 94 29 local(?)
Kenya    17057 12792 4265 246 36.5 -3 near Kili.
Tirich Mir 25230 12674 12480 164 73.5 37 Baroghil Pass
K2       28251 12503 15748 820 82 33 NW Tibet
Gongga Shan 24790 12487 12303 820 101 32.5 NW Sichuan


Regards,
David Metzler

McKinley:  Natural=Nicaragua ~ 160'; Artifical=Panama ~ 85'

Kilomanjaro:  Natural: The ancient Egyptians built a canal from
about Cairo to Suez, so an estimate of the natural saddle height
would be Cairo's elevation.  Artificial=Suez Canal = 0'

Mt. Blanc: Three possible saddle paths
1) To Mt. El'brus in the Caucasus.  Saddle would be near Volgograd
or the Manych depression.
2) Between Caspian Sea and Aral Sea.  Not likely.  The Amu Darya R.
has sometimes flowed toward/into the Caspian Sea.
3) North and East of the Aral Sea.
It is also worth checking the Pripyat drainage divide (traversed by
a canal) and the north end of the Volga drainage.
An exhaustive list entry, capable of convincing us of Mt. Blanc's
prominence, would probably have to list all those saddles.

Orizaba:  I think I once looked at this.  Saddle could be in northern
BC or southern Yukon Terr., along the run from the continental divide
to either Mt. Logan or Mt. McKinley.

Chiripo, the HP of Costa Rica, >12000', would get the natural Panama
canal saddle, <300', so it would be a contender for the bottom of the
list.

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Andy Martin wrote:
>
>         We really could use the help of someone with good access to the
>         Canadian 1:50,000 maps here, and for some peaks in AK & MT.
>
I too am having problems with this.  For various reasons, I would love
to determine the prominence of Orizaba, whose saddle is the lowest point
on the continental divide in British Columbia.  There used to be a 135
page topo atlas for all of BC for about $40, but it is apparently out of
print.  I have a road map of BC that shows 500m, 1000m, and 2000m
contours.  There are lots of places where the Orizaba saddle could be,
mostly near Williston Lake, but it is definitely between 500m and 1000m.

I'd also like to find Waddington's prominence.  Its saddle is also
between 500m 1000m.


					 Edward "7.389056099" Earl
					 esquared@...
					 http://www.k-online.com/~esquared/eae.htm

(Dave Metzler)
>>Hi all. I've been looking for the most prominent peaks in the
>>world, and in particular I'm compiling a list of the peaks
>>with over 4000m prominence (around 25 peaks).

	 (Andy)
	 An early attempt by several individuals at this is attached. You
	 are welcome to use the data as you see fit.

>>McKinley -- I have 85 feet at Gatun Lake (Panama Canal) instead
>>            of 160 feet in Nicaragua.


	 The 164- (33) is the natural saddle, the Panama Canal elevation
	 is manmade. I use the natural saddles on my lists (and mentally
	 fill in road cuts :), but the correct elevation to use is open
	 to debate.

	 PEAK            MAP              PROM.   SADDLE       SADDLE MAP
	 Mount McKinley  Mt McKinley A-3  20,156+ 164- (33)    Nicaragua 3050 III

>>Logan -- as is. It's very hard to figure out which saddle is lower!


	 We really could use the help of someone with good access to the
	 Canadian 1:50,000 maps here, and for some peaks in AK & MT.

	 Come to think of it - a canadian top 50 prominence list would be nice
	 as well ... ;)

>>Kilimanjaro -- The Suez is a sea-level canal so the saddle is 0 feet.

	 Once again, do we go with natural or manmade saddle ?

>>And yes, I know this will hopefully be made moot by the Shuttle
>>mapping data, but I didn't want to wait.

	 Go for it !




	 DRAFT - 50 highest prominence peaks in the world - DRAFT

Prom. Peak 	 Location

29028 Everest              [Asia, Africa, Europe]
22834 Aconcagua            [North America and South America]
20160   Mount McKinley      Alaska
19000+  Kilimanjaro      Tanzania
18000+ Pico Cristobal Colon HP Columbia
16066 Vinson Massif        [Antartica]
16500 Jaja                 [New Gineau]
16000+  Mount Logan      Canada
15199+  Elbrus 	     Europe HP
15115+  Mount Blanc      France
14858+ Mt. Damavand      Iran
14000+ Orizaba 	     Mexico
13943+  Mt. Klyuchevskaya    HP Kamchatka Peninsula
13796 Mauna Kea            [Hawaii, Hawaii]
13455 Kinabalu             [Borneo]
13210   Mount Rainier      Washington
13113 Yu Shan              [Taiwan]
12885+ Volcan Tajumulco     HP Guatamala
12800+  Mount Fairweather    Alaska
12467 Kerenci              [Sumatra]
12450 Mt Erebus            [Ross Island, off Antarctica]
12450+ Mt. Cameroon      13,451 elevation - saddle of less than 1000 feet
12388 Fuji san             [Honshu, Japan]
12349 Mt Cook              [South Island, New Zealand]
12224 Rindjani             [Lombok, Indonesia]
12198 Teide                [Tenerife, Canary Islands]
12139 Gunnbjornsfjeld      [Greenland]
12060 Semeru               [Java]
12024+  Jebel Toubkal      Morocco
12001+  ? 	     Lower South Amer., near Gulfo Penas
12000+ Cerro Chirripo      HP Costa Rica
12000+ Mt. Kenya      Kenya
11876+  Ras Dashen Terara    Ethopia HP


Needs checking

Peak Pobeda, China-Kyrgystan
Margherita Peak (Ruwenzori), Uganda-Zaire
Mt. Cameroon
Mt. Meru, Tanzania
Karicimbi, Zaire-Rwanda
Pico Bolivar, 16,427' HP Venezuela
(per David Olson)
1. Also needs checking would be Ritacuba Blanca, HP of
  Colombia's Cordillera Oriental.  The Cord. Oriental
  has a relatively low saddle with the rest of the
  Andes.

2. Probably out of the running would be the HP of the
  Altai mountains, Asia.

  Leading Himalaya "pop-up" would be Nanga Parbat in Pakistan,
  east of Indus River.  I estimate its "P" at 12883'.

  Also look at the Finistere Range of Papua New Guinea, ne of
  Lae.  It has a 4100'+ m peak and relative separation from
  the other mountains in New Guinea.





Will not make 12,000' cut
Batu, Ethiopia
Mt. Elgon, Kenya-Uganda

Hi all. I've been looking for the most prominent peaks in the
world, and in particular I'm compiling a list of the peaks
with over 4000m prominence (around 25 peaks).

I'd like to post it as additions
and a few (respectful!) corrections to the list that Edward
Earl has put up on eGroups. I thought I would mention the proposed
corrections and clarifications to the top 10 first so that
I can be sure it is OK to edit the table:

Everest -- as is
Aconcagua -- as is
McKinley -- I have 85 feet at Gatun Lake (Panama Canal) instead
             of 160 feet in Nicaragua.
Kilimanjaro -- The Suez is a sea-level canal so the saddle is 0 feet.
Cristobal Colon -- I have a saddle of between 800 and 1000 feet
            which is consistent with the prominence on the table.
Logan -- as is. It's very hard to figure out which saddle is lower!
Puncak Jaya -- as is.
Vinson Massif -- as is.
Elbrus -- is entirely in Russia, not on the border. I have a saddle
           between 3000 and 3300 feet, consistent with the table, but
           tentative.
Mont Blanc -- I need to check the saddle but I would say it is under
               500 feet.

If there are no objections, or corrections to my corrections,
I'll edit the table on eGroups to reflect the above.

Also, if there are no objections, I will soon add a lot more
entries. Some of them have very uncertain saddle elevations but I
will try to indicate that with a note in the "name" or "location"
field.

And yes, I know this will hopefully be made moot by the Shuttle
mapping data, but I didn't want to wait.

Dave Metzler

Karen & John Roper wrote: (regarding prominence databases)
>
> What's the password for this? "prominence" and "cohp" didn't work.
>
There's no password for this (or any other group resource).  When you
sign in to egroups, you always do so as an individual (where your e-mail
address identifies you), and you use your individual password.  Egroups
then knows which groups you are a member or moderator of, and you have
access to all the resources of those groups that the moderators of those
groups have allowed.

If your first acquaintance with egroups was through cohp, then you
probably got an e-mail on or about November 13 (when cohp was started)
telling you your initial password.  If you were not in cohp, you
probably got a similar email on August 4 (when the prominence group was
started).  If you can't get your password this way, the egroups signin
page has a link to click to help you set a new password.


					 Edward "7.389056099" Earl
					 esquared@...
					 http://www.k-online.com/~esquared/eae.htm

Edward,

What's the password for this? "prominence" and "cohp" didn't work.

John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward "7.389056099" Earl" <esquared@...>
To: <prominence@egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 9:14 PM
Subject: [prominence] prominence databases in egroups


: Egroups offers a database feature which I have used for us to accumulate
: prominence lists.  For starters, I have created two tables: one for the
: contiguous US (quite stable) and one for the world (still quite
: tentative).  I have started each list off with its top 10.  I have
: enabled member access to this feature so that anyone can modify these
: lists as new findings occur; to do so, go to
: http://www.egroups.com/database/prominence.  If you do so, please enter
: prominence strictly as a number, without the "+" notation that occurs in
: our printed lists.  That way egroups will recognize the field as a
: number and will sort it numerically instead of alphabetically.  If you
: create any new tables, please do so with the exact same columns in the
: exact same order as the existing tables.
:
: Edward "7.389056099" Earl
: esquared@...
: http://www.k-online.com/~esquared/eae.htm
:
:
:
:
:
: To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
: prominence-unsubscribe@egroups.com
:
:
:

Egroups offers a database feature which I have used for us to accumulate
prominence lists.  For starters, I have created two tables: one for the
contiguous US (quite stable) and one for the world (still quite
tentative).  I have started each list off with its top 10.  I have
enabled member access to this feature so that anyone can modify these
lists as new findings occur; to do so, go to
http://www.egroups.com/database/prominence.  If you do so, please enter
prominence strictly as a number, without the "+" notation that occurs in
our printed lists.  That way egroups will recognize the field as a
number and will sort it numerically instead of alphabetically.  If you
create any new tables, please do so with the exact same columns in the
exact same order as the existing tables.

					 Edward "7.389056099" Earl
					 esquared@...
					 http://www.k-online.com/~esquared/eae.htm

>I would like to see some parallel development to the recent co.hp.
>postings, including accessibility notes for prominent eastern peaks.

I think there are no access problems for New England 50 most prominent,
just park fees to pay

The NH 50 most prominent includes the infamous Croydon Peak

I am not aware of access problems with ME or VT 50 most prominent, but
haven't climbed them yet either

Haven't seen list for MA 50 most prominent, cutoff probably near 500'

>It might also be interesting to list the prominences of 500+' prominence

>peaks directly along the Appalachian Trail and a few of the main feeder
trails.

* = side trail, less than ~ 1 mi.
# = bushwhack, less than ~ 1 mi.

Peak            |Prom|Elev|Quad           |Lat-Long       |Col El|Col
Quad|Col Desc
Baxter Pk-Katahd|4292|5267|Mount Katahdin |455415N0685522W|970+5|2
places|MudPd
White Cap Mounta|2624|3654|Big Shanty
Mo|453317N0691448W|1020+10|NortheastCove|^LobsterMt
Barren Mountain |1640|2640+10|Barren Mtn
East|452456N0692227W|1100+10|LongPd|BarrenMtnE
Bald Mountain   |1219|2629|Moxie Pond |451519N0694612W|1400+10|col
N|BaldMtnPd
Pleasant Pond M !1040|2460+10|The Forks
|451618N0695346W|1420+10|colS|Caratunk
West Pk-Bigelow |2855|4145|The Horns      |450851N0701720W|1280+10|col
S|SugarloafMtn
*Sugarloaf Mounta|3180|4240+10|Sugarloaf
Mtn|450153N0701849W|1060+10|NHRte.110|^Milan(NH)
Crocker Mountain|1238|4228|Black Nubble   |450249N0702257W|2980+10|col
SE|Redington
Saddleback Mount|2446|4120|Saddleback
Moun|445612N0703013W|1674|RedingtonPond|Redington
#Elephant Mountai|2062|3772|Metallak
Mounta|444618N0704631W|1700+10|SummitRR|Houghton

#Sawyer Mountain !1000|2580+10|Andover
|444243N0704709W|1580+10|colW|Andover
#Wyman Mountain  |1540|2980+10|Andover  |444050N0705008W|1440+10|Dunn
Notch|B Pond
East Pk-Baldpate|2238|3780+10|Old Speck
Mount|443633N0705344W|1552|Grafton Notch|OldSpeckMtn
*Old Speck Mounta|2720|4160+10|Old Speck
Mount|443415N0705718W|1440+10|colNofWyman|Andover
*Goose Eye Mounta|1380|3860+10|Old
Speck/SuccessPd|443009N0705931W|1552|GraftonNotch|OldSpeckMtn
ME - 15

Carter Dome     |2814|4832|Carter Dome
|441602N0711046W|612+3m|MountWashing
Wildcat Mountain|1034|4422|Carter Dome
|441532N0711207W|3388|CarterDome
Washington, Moun|6150|1916.6m|Mount Washingto|441614N0711817W|138|Fort
Ann NY
South Twin Mount|1522|4902|South Twin
Moun|441115N0713319W|3360+20|SouthTwinMt
Lafayette, Mount|3360|5240+20|Franconia
|440925N0713827W|1880+20|CrawfordNot
Moosilauke, Moun|2932|4802|Mount
Moosilauk|440128N0714953W|1870|MountMoosilauk
Smarts Mountain |2188|3238|Smarts Mountain|434932N0720158W|1040+10|Warren
North Peak-Moose|1443|702+3m|Canaan
|434404N0720828W|860+10|SmartsMount
NH - 8

Killington Peak   |3325|4235|Killington Peak|***|900+10|Brookfield|Rte.14
Stratton Mountai  |2411|1201m|Stratton
Mounta|***|462+3m|MountHolly|Rte.103
Peru Peak         |1476|1044+3m|Danby|***|594+3m|Peru|Rte.11
Glastenbury Moun  |1120|3748|Woodford|***|798+3m|Stratton Mtn|col NE
VT - 4

Greylock, Mt    |2482|3487|Cheshire|***|1000+5|PittsfieldEast|Rte.8
Everett, Mt.     |1614|795m|***|***|303m|***|TunnelHillRd
MA - 2


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Andy Martin wrote:
>
>      Some national 50 finest - Canada, Mexico, etc. What country has
>      the highest cut off ?
>
>      US is sitting pretty with roughly 6,200' cut off - can
>      any country beat this ?
>
I vote for Denmark. ;)

Seriously, though, it's gonna be close.  The main contenders here are
the US, Canada, China, and Russia.  I note that these are simply the
largest countries by area.  So, working down...

Brazil almost certainly does not have enough mountains to contend.  The
national high point, Pico da Neblina, is only 9888 feet.  Australia will
have a similar handicap.

Though India has some very rugged areas, these account for only a tiny
fraction of that country's total area.

Argentina could well be a contender.  Chile and Peru, though samaller,
may be able to pack enough "prominence density" to contend.

I doubt that any country in Africa could be a contender.

Nepal is probably too small in area.  The sprawl from Kashmir through
Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran will give these countries a good
spicing, but probably not quite enough to compare to the more serious
contenders.

I predict that China will come out on top in this race; it's almost
exactly the same area as the USA and Canada, but it's mountainous over a
much greater fraction.  The jury will probably not come in on that until
I go to work on the SRTM data with my algorithm.

>      USA "Marilyn" list - say the 1000 best prominence peaks in
>      the US.
>
We almost have what we need for this now- I suspect that the cutoff
would be a little over 2000' for the lower 48.  With proper reviews of
all of our other lists using Winprom, my prominence research software to
be released later this year, this would be free.


					 Edward "7.389056099" Earl
					 esquared@...
					 http://www.k-online.com/~esquared/eae.htm

(Carl Mills)
>>I would like to see some statewide lists for some of the southern
>>Appalachian states.

	 (Andy)
	 Edward Earl and I are keen to get a "finest 50" list put
	 together for the SE US, hopefully something will be put together
	 within a month.

>>I would like to see some parallel development to the recent co.hp. postings,
>>including accessibility notes for prominent eastern peaks.
>>It might also be interesting to list the prominences of 500+' prominence peaks
>>directly along the Appalachian Trail and a few of the main feeder trails.

	 Prominence popularization is starting from scratch on a lot of fronts,
	 and there are lots of neat lists to contemplate:

		 Worlds 50 finest.

		 Continental 50 finest, all 7 continents

		 Some national 50 finest - Canada, Mexico, etc. What country has
		 the highest cut off ?

		 US is sitting pretty with roughly 6,200' cut off - can
		 any country beat this ?

		 USA "Marilyn" list - say the 1000 best prominence peaks in
		 the US.

	 I might do the Mexico list, and a list of the "top 50" on the
	 Catalina Mountain range, but don't have plans for others right now.

Edward,

Thanks for adding me to your prominence address group.  It is a bit more
focused than the co.hp. group, since it excludes a lot of trivial, flat
spots, which are of interest only because of an intersection of boundaries
and terrain.  This weekend, I plan to hike around some of the top prominence
peaks of VA and KY (Apple Orchard Mountain and the Cumberland Gap wilderness
area).

I would like to see some parallel development to the recent co.hp. postings,
including accessibility notes for prominent eastern peaks.  I would like to
see some statewide lists for some of the southern Appalachian states.  It
might also be interesting to list the prominences of 500+' prominence peaks
directly along the Appalachian Trail and a few of the main feeder trails.


Carl Mills