http://video.yahoo.com/watch/3995851/10825965
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/3995836/10825934
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/3995830/10825911
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/3995820/10825883

...... has any one here been looking at >

www.proagenesis.org   ?

and do you may be ?
want to open a yahoo group in your native language ?
or improve on the description under

http://www.proagenesis.org   ?

if you need any help > just let me know !

........ I have been thinking ...

for an even more extrem lenght >
for the club vfp to sail around the world with >

see it in " files "


but it could most likely be with a hinged fin  ........

--- In proagenesis@yahoogroups.com, "desmond.long" <desmond.long@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi.this is what Iexpeted Boys and there Toys model planes do not
> convert to full size plans



...... as any one can see at www.proadesign.com
and links there >>>

>>>>>>> there is a full size vfp sailing
starting in 1995 <<<<<<<<<

meaning a dozen years ago !!!!!!

and all the catastrophies every where on this planet
have not been able to just copy this

till this very day !!!!



also the other way around.the multihull
> movement which I was part of start with boats 12-16-22 ft.not with
> models you made remarks about Rob Denney proas guest what they are
> being built there is one in a sailing school in u.s.for a few Bucks you
> can get a ride on .



........ for a $ 1000 did I build my  23'vfp  in 1995 !




> You stated you were building an 88ft.and asked about it got a surley
> reply that was 03 now in 07 you go balistic and still piaying with
> models.



........ better then no being able
to >>> read <<< plain language !

or not being able to look at pictures
after being told >>>>> many times .......



> Thanks for nothing




...... no thanks >>> for being a catastrophy !
there are sooooooooo many ......

not even being able to learn >
after being helped as much as possible ......




> Regards.
> Desmond Long
>

Hi.this is what Iexpeted Boys and there Toys model planes do not
convert to full size plans also the other way around.the multihull
movement which I was part of start with boats 12-16-22 ft.not with
models you made remarks about Rob Denney proas guest what they are
being built there is one in a sailing school in u.s.for a few Bucks you
can get a ride on .
You stated you were building an 88ft.and asked about it got a surley
reply that was 03 now in 07 you go balistic and still piaying with
models.
Thanks for nothing
Regards.
Desmond Long

.



... I have been using other boating groups for some time now >>

and am really shocked to see
so much ignorance in this worlds population

>>> and deception <<<

where the dark ages before
seem to be filled

with even more light .....



.

http://www.studiobunker.de/vector_foil_proa_test2_engl.htm

..... if you put on a triangular mast sail ....

in strong winds
and get the wind from the wrong side >

then you can sheet it from the stiff batten
going from the clew to the mast

to athward ships from both sides !

then you will have not much force
to the usual wind ward side of the boat
and it will be in a critical position

meaning it will go easily back to the right side !

a stable condition .....





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

..... in the files section of the proatech group ....

you can now see some pictures taken
while testing the 10' + rc vfp model well over a decade ago ....

the big problem with some of them
as with the real boat pictures

was >

I never had a photographer on hand
when things where really going fast !

because I was too busy to watch out for the boat then !





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

..... a square proa ?

the more beam you have ......
the less down load you will get from the reaction
of the stability causing weight onto the main hull !

the less extra resistance your vector fin will have
in comparision to a straight fin .....

but you will as well have more windage
from the longer wing and higher freeboard needed ...

so now we are at 80% over all beam to lenght !

is this going to be the best balance ?
for having the best performance overall ....

see the new vfp 30' w x 2e at > files > at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proadesign






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

...... if you want to combine the flying of your proa .....

with the comfort of just sitting there
doing nothing for hours
no steering
no sheet trimming all the while !

and watch the wind gust from 10 to 30 ktns
with you are flying all the time in safety  ........

see the most advanced vfp yet >>>

the >>> vfp 30' h x 2e
at the files section of >>>


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proadesign



.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

...... you can now see .....

the new tri mast double entrance !

vfp 30' w r 2e

in the files section !

the then after mast will make the change of direction
faster and with less leeway

see www.proatech.org for the change gifs

since it is so far out of the center of the turning point
and small enough ....

then it will self steer even better !

since the low aspect ratio outer sails will hold curse well
and the high aspect center sail
will then be always at the right angle of attack
for max drive .....

and having two separate entrances
one for each crew

to be able to work on some thing
in the center of the boat ....





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

....... the fastest change of directions you get ......

not with one mast or one sail as you may think !
not with 2 sails

but with 2 masts or better 3 !

to visualize this take a look at the
tri mast > vfp 30' w r < in the files section of

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proatech

where you have some sail area way out at the ends !
and to look at the 2 mast >change< drawing at

http://www.proatech.org

so ....

you let go the sail at the center & rear
then you swing the sail at the front
becoming the rear

around !

this will stop the boat at an instant
then will turn it around on a dime
because the area is small
but at great distance from the turning point !

then you sheet in the center sail
and then the new front sail !






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

..... to have really functioning life lines on a multi ......

they would have to be 3' high and sturdy enough
to hold up when falling against !

think of the weight and windage !

I rather cherish holding onto the stays always
or having an arm or a leg going around
when doing some thing stationary .....


but what would I be doing with out stays ?
on the rig .....

..... the popularity of cylindrical moulding has its orgine in the illusion !
that when you have the skin done
you would be well on the way of having a finished boat

but
when you have the skin done
then you have to fit in the required bulkheads and frames
being one big pain !

then you have to fit onto the turned over hull the deck
being one big pain !

so ?

it is actually easier to first build the deck
then install the permanent frames onto this
temporarily installing any moulding frames

this then being the best mould you could have >
then put the skin on lenght wise !

this is the only real good part about cm ....

and the smaller vfp sizes have to much curveture for 1/8" ply
so I use isulation foam core construction .....

but if you can get furniers
you could do any size

but I have only building plans now for foam !






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

..... in the files section ......

you now can now see the flush deck version drawings
of the vfp 30' itr !


like on my own 31' .....

.... a make up of a hinged fin

can be seen now in the files section here ......

...... you can now see ......

a drawing showing the use of glass bubbles
in the files section

> glass bubbles

when glassing

you first use a regular mixture
so the glass bubbles will actually facilitate
the flowing of the epoxy into the glass cloth
like tiny ball bearing balls !

and have a higher glass to resin ratio !


then when fairing
use a saturated mixture
so you get as much air into it as possible

and be as lite as possible !


then when covering all

use epoxy with titanium dioxide mixed into it
so you have uv protection as well ......

mix first the titanium dioxide into the epoxy resin
and let it bubble out over night

then mix the hardner into it !







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

....... carbon fibers are for most applications
not only a waste of funds

but will on shock loads not hold up as well
as glass fibers and epoxy >

since this combination
will give a lot more on impact !

I know of a surfing kayak
breaking in half on a swell off hawaii ....

having cost tausend of dollars !

carbon fibers are only called for
when constant high loads are present
as on a monos rigging ........

and no  give can be tolerated !











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

..... you now can see in the files section

all the new drawings on the hinged vfp concept .....

..... when ever you try
to increase the overall beam of a multi hull .....

you have the problem
of having to increase to clearance of the bridge deck too

unless you divide it so it can move !

then the boat can follow the waves
to clear them mostly

with out the increased windage from a high freeboard .....

when ever you try to improve your lateral resistence
and have a deeper dagger board

you have the problem of damage
when stricking an object big enough .....

but if you have the board off center ?

so the boat will turn around it !
not being stopped suddenly by it ....

when ever you try and build a dagger board case
it is either to lose or it will stick ....

but if you just hinge it ?

with a strap of reinforced rubber
from the side walls of a tire .....

so you can lift it up easily !


>>> in the files section at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proatech/

you can see now the 3 views
of the fast vfp 30' tr cruiser >>>>

being the stretched version of the vfp 25' tri .....








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

...... the proadesign site

has now been updated
to have the new developments included >

www.proadesign.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

...... and now you should be able to see on

www.proatech.org/vector_25_tri.gif

the vector forces of the vfp 25 tri







--- In proagenesis@yahoogroups.com, "fritz roth" <fritz.roth@...> wrote:
>
>
> .... why not have a flying proas ride in choppy seas as well ?
> and not having to care for it every second ?
>
> here we have this dream come true !
>
> > www.proatech.org/triproa.gif
>
> and now I have just finished
> on the basis of the vfp 25 lwl
>
> www.geocities.com/proatechnology
>
> the cruising version of this concept
>
> > the vfp 25 tri <
>
> not only is it designed to ride like a dream
> but you can trailor and store it more easily
> since the center hull & fin can be detached
> or the fin folded on up or down
> for going into a marina slip
>
> and the rest being not as wide
> as the fixed fin version
>
> the end of the wing being one part of the hinge
> the fin being the other
> and the center hull being the pin of this hinge !
>
> so the circular vector fin can adjust to short waves
>
> and the boat proper
> does not have to follow the wave shape exactly !
>
>
>
> http://de.geocities.com/proagenesis
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

.... why not have a flying proas ride in choppy seas as well ?
and not having to care for it every second ?

here we have this dream come true !

> www.proatech.org/triproa.gif

and now I have just finished
on the basis of the vfp 25 lwl

www.geocities.com/proatechnology

the cruising version of this concept

> the vfp 25 tri <

not only is it designed to ride like a dream
but you can trailor and store it more easily
since the center hull & fin can be detached
or the fin folded on up or down
for going into a marina slip

and the rest being not as wide
as the fixed fin version

the end of the wing being one part of the hinge
the fin being the other
and the center hull being the pin of this hinge !

so the circular vector fin can adjust to short waves

and the boat proper
does not have to follow the wave shape exactly !



http://de.geocities.com/proagenesis






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

what is the sail on the central hull for?


   ..... with it you can control both >

   > the altitute of the central hull
   > and the balance of the whole boat .....

   but I am now working
   on a cruising version of this concept
   on the basis of the vfp 25 lwl

   that having only the 2 mast rig
   on the main platform

   and the hinged vf being much shorter
   in proportion to the main platform

   this concept has great potential
   not only for sailing
   at a stable flying position
   in choppy waters

   but it allows as well the boat
   to be trailored more easily !

   since the overall permanent beam is less
   and you have the hinged part
   to hold the central hull up
   at the specified height
   to be 8' overall while on the road ....

   for down wind or in lite beam wind sailing
   you can pull the hinged vf up
   to reduce wetted area ...

   in anchoring
   or if going into a marina slip
   you can have it going on all the way down
   into the water

   to reduce over all beam for
   and be safe in shifty gusts .....






   fritz_roth <fritz.roth@...> wrote:

     ......... if you want the ride of a flying proa
     without watching it every second >>>

     build a www.proatech.org/triproa.gif  !




   ---------------------------------
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     Messenger: Make free PC-to-PC calls to your friends overseas.

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

what is the sail on the central hull for?

fritz_roth <fritz.roth@...> wrote:

   ......... if you want the ride of a flying proa
   without watching it every second >>>

   build a www.proatech.org/triproa.gif  !




---------------------------------
On Yahoo!7
   Messenger: Make free PC-to-PC calls to your friends overseas.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

......... if you want the ride of a flying proa
without watching it every second >>>

build a www.proatech.org/triproa.gif  !






--- In proagenesis@yahoogroups.com, "peterevans_33"
<peterevans_33@...> wrote:
>
> hi Fritz,
>
> a question for you, may as well make it public.
>
> The fin in a VFP always has to stay in the water. Now if you have
> choppy conditions does this mean that the VFP has to heel to follow
> the shape of the waves, whatever the waves do. Rob Denney says that
> his Harry Proa windward hull sometimes comes out of the water.
>
> What I am getting at is there more heeling and righting than on a
> conventional multihull.
>
> Have you sailed in other multi and can compare the ride. I have no
> doubt that pitching would be reduced due to large length overall.
>
> Whilst I am here James Wharram has an article on windage on his
> website. He remarks that some modern bridgedeck cats have a
> superstructure height up to 20% of LOA. Whilst his designs are around
> 10% of loa. Historically boats have had windage of bewteen 6% and 10%
> of LOA. What is the windage percentage of a VFP, at 10% a 30' VFP
> would have a freeboard of 3 feet, is this too high.
>
> You may have seen cheers, Dick Newicks early proa. Of interest was the
> very low freeboard about 10% of the way from bow stern. Is it possible
> to decrease windage in these areas and increase windage a few inches
> in the center to make up for it.
>
> Do you have an opinion on leepods, if only for a place of securing
> lines, or is there no need for them in a VFP?
>
> Out of curiosity how many sea miles have you done in the VFP?
>
> I had better get back to the saw.....
>
> n peter evans
>

..... now I would have a lot of fun ....

sailing in choppy waters for a few hours
across the bay

or with a crew along a trade route
flying the out rigger high over the crests ....

but if I am alone at night
trying to navigate
saving as much energy as possible

eat some .......

do you think ?
I could have possibly
the time to tent to a flying proa ?

every second .....




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> hi Fritz,

   a question for you, may as well make it public.

   The fin in a VFP always has to stay in the water. Now if you have
   choppy conditions does this mean that the VFP has to heel to follow
   the shape of the waves, whatever the waves do. Rob Denney says that
   his Harry Proa windward hull sometimes comes out of the water.

   What I am getting at is there more heeling and righting than on a
   conventional multihull.


   ..... the principle is to have at all times a safe ride
   with out having to tent to the boat

   so there is the following of the waves what ever
   in contrast to a flying proa

   you have to tent to every second then .....



   Have you sailed in other multi and can compare the ride.


   ...... I have had a 24' mono for years
   cruising southern californian waters

   had a live aboard trimaran for many years
   made cruises to the chanel islands
   sailed it to mexico
   and to hawaii and back to california

   had a cat too
   a power boat
   a kayak and wild water raft

   studied racing sculls
   the ideal hull for a vfp

   in addition to sails on other peoples craft
   like a one way out rigger fin stabilized vessel .....



   I have no
   doubt that pitching would be reduced due to large length overall.

   .... yes !

   this is the best way to do it ...


   Whilst I am here James Wharram has an article on windage on his
   website. He remarks that some modern bridgedeck cats have a
   superstructure height up to 20% of LOA. Whilst his designs are around
   10% of loa. Historically boats have had windage of bewteen 6% and 10%
   of LOA. What is the windage percentage of a VFP, at 10% a 30' VFP
   would have a freeboard of 3 feet, is this too high.

   ..... well ...

   look at the mast of a 22'warram !
   its more then douple the diameter of my 31 '
   because he doesnt stay them more then ones !

   because he wants to have a smooth sail attachement
   you can have on a proa as well

   > because the groove is towards the lee side <

   and stay it as many times as you need
   for a slim mast section .....


   You may have seen cheers, Dick Newicks early proa. Of interest was the
   very low freeboard about 10% of the way from bow stern. Is it possible
   to decrease windage in these areas and increase windage a few inches
   in the center to make up for it.


   .... yes !

   look at my freeboard !
   its about 5% of the loa ....

   and look at the vfp wing
   its perfectly aerodynamically shaped
   and thin enough ....

   and I have no cabin to speak of
   just a protective entrance
   cockpit area .....


   Do you have an opinion on leepods, if only for a place of securing
   lines, or is there no need for them in a VFP?


   .... this has been said before many a times >

   >>> to reduce the inertia <<<

   you want to reduce all masses
   outside the center of motion !

   fore and aft
   and athwards ....



   Out of curiosity how many sea miles have you done in the VFP?


   ..... I have sailed these two versions 4 winters long
   and one season here

   together about 12 month aboard

   to test them on mostly short distance cruises
   in the worst weather I could find

   because I want a live aboard boat for myself !

   and only after testing these small versions
   where I have seen what fun the small vfp is to sail
   did I consider to offer them in this size .....






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hi Fritz,

a question for you, may as well make it public.

The fin in a VFP always has to stay in the water. Now if you have
choppy conditions does this mean that the VFP has to heel to follow
the shape of the waves, whatever the waves do. Rob Denney says that
his Harry Proa windward hull sometimes comes out of the water.

What I am getting at is there more heeling and righting than on a
conventional multihull.

Have you sailed in other multi and can compare the ride. I have no
doubt that pitching would be reduced due to large length overall.

Whilst I am here James Wharram has an article on windage on his
website. He remarks that some modern bridgedeck cats have a
superstructure height up to 20% of LOA. Whilst his designs are around
10% of loa. Historically boats have had windage of bewteen 6% and 10%
of LOA. What is the windage percentage of a VFP, at 10% a 30' VFP
would have a freeboard of 3 feet, is this too high.

You may have seen cheers, Dick Newicks early proa. Of interest was the
very low freeboard about 10% of the way from bow stern. Is it possible
to decrease windage in these areas and increase windage a few inches
in the center to make up for it.

Do you have an opinion on leepods, if only for a place of securing
lines, or is there no need for them in a VFP?

Out of curiosity how many sea miles have you done in the VFP?

I had better get back to the saw.....

n peter evans