good day everyone ...

                how could anyone be building a sail boat
                and balast it
                so it can sink in less then a minute ???

                or so fat
                it can sink in its own wave !

                do not much else then just create waves !

                carry 2 hulls to have a lot of weight to carry around
with ?
                or even 3 ???

                with all the structural problems associated anlong with
this ?

                why not build a single hull ?
                then a very nearrow
                streamlined bridge deck
                to reduce windage and neccessary sail area

                to a fin creating the neccessary "weight" to keep level
as needed ?

                this is the only logical conclusion
                to a problem confronted ....

                regards fritz

good day everyone !


               www.proagenesis.org

               is looking for locations worldwide
               to establish bases for vfp

               further development - testing and building

               also to educate the public on the benefits
               and how to sail them

               all non profit ...........


               anyone knowing of a good place to do this at
               can post here or contact me directly



               fritz.roth@... ...

good day  !


               > I have been working with your drawings
               and taking measurements from them.
               > The scale of the top view at 1056 pixels is
               very useful but the front view
               > doesn't give as much detail at the lower
               resolution. Still, I am able to get
               > enough information to move forward.



               if you have desided on a particular size
               and rig
               let me know
               I have some full scale " rigs "
               and frontviews
               and can send them ...




               > I looked at the picture showing the half frame
building jig.
               >
               > After building the 1/4 hulls how do you attach the
pieces to form the
               > completed hull?



               if you have the room to build in full lenght
               you can just set up all the deck
               the permanent frames
               and put the building frames
               only in one quarter section

               or you build a half  hull
               like shown on the picture
               then clue the two together later outside

               this brings me to the building methode
               to have all foam
               then put over the topsides
               deck 1/8" ply
               fair it
               then glass the rest heavy
               the ply only ones



               > I'm planking with polystyrene foam but should I lay
this over plywood frames
               > and stringers that remain in the hull?


               the permanent frames are best glased foam
               only the 0 stations in the center
               should be solide 2x2 lumber
               you can either put them in as you build
               and glas the outside before putting them in
               with some overlap to joint the glasing
               on the inside later

               or put them in after the hull has been glased inside

               only on the 32'
               I would recommend spruce stringers



               > I'm still trying to decide on the length of hull to
build. If I stay with
               > the 26'4" version would it be better to go with the
single sail rig?



               if you want to save on work
               consider the 29'4
               and a single rig
               the longer is just so much more !

               especially
               if you want to sleep in it ...




               > Will the dimensions for the rudders of 3" X 9" work
for the 26'4" version or
               > do I need to scale them down?


               no

               because of the shorter turning arm lenghts
               of the ruder on the shorter hull
               you should actually have all the ruder
               you can have




               > I'll be spending more time looking at the drawings
before I start to build
               > and I'm sure I'll have some more questions. Feel free
to use my questions
               > and your answers on your forum.


               thanks !

               I am not using your name on it
               so nobody should start bothering you



               > I will be taking pictures and documenting my project
but I would prefer to
               > wait until the boat is completed before I make the
information available on
               > the internet.


               yes
               don't let yourself be detracted ...



               > I'm not interested in spending a lot of time on
emails. I have
               > a limited amount of free time and want to spend it
building the proa!


               this will be in my interest as well ..

               regards fritz

good day  !



               > I used the offsets to draw up the stations for #0, #8
& #4 to start building


               great !

               but take a look at the main page
               of proagenesis

               third picture on down
               you will see how I used

               building half frames

               to help build the  hull
               first on one side
               then put it over the other
               and so on four times

               this will make sure you have
               a proper shape in the end





               > the hull for your 26'4" design.




               try and go for the extented version

               around 30'

               or even 32'

               it does not take that much more work

               but gives a lot more lenght
               for the bunks

               a better ride

               and steering !




               > I notice that there isn't any detail info or offsets
for the float.




               there is no more float on the new version

               because it puts up a fight with the fin
               on short chap

               just the big vector fin
               as shown on all the drawings
               now



               >
               > What is the length of the vectorfin at the top?
               >
               > From the drawings on your site it looks like the
length of the fin tapers.
               >
               > What is the length of the fin at the bottom?
               >
               > How deep in the water is the tip of the fin?
               >
               > How "thick" is the vectorfin.
               > Does the "thickness" taper toward the tip?



               just take a look at the top view
               front view
               & side view

               start with the overall lenght as your guide
               and take off all the measurements from there
               as a portion of it

               example

               some drawing may have 1056 pixs overall
               = 1056" inches = 88'
               so some other distance has 96 pixs
               so this is 8'

               note that the top drawings are
               in inches
               the frontview is in 1/10 of a foot
               the rig in 1/5  or 1/10 of a foot

               and your version is a 1/3 model of this

               on you corel draw
               you should be able to convert
               to your size

               like over all lenght 360 pixs = 30'


               also go to http://de.geocities.com/proatechnology

               for an other 2 mast set up

               you also could have it printed out
               on a scale
               then take the measurments of
               with a scale

               like 3/8" = 1'


               > is the thick side to windward?



               yes !

               the windward side is about twice the thickness
               of the leeward

               I have added to

               www.proagenesis.org/vector_fin.htm

               the description
               for building the fin
               let me know if this is clear
               to you now




               > I am picking up some polystyrene foam for the hull. I
plan on using solid
               > foam



               is it about 3/4" thick ?

               if it is more
               you will have no room for your feet in the center
               or for the ruder linkage to go

               you would have to carve it out later on





               >from the waterline down as you suggested in your
building notes.
               >looking forward to working with you on this project.



               yes !


               don't forget to document everything
               so we can publish it

               regards fritz

good day



               > 1. I am excited about the Vectorfin concept but I
noticed that there wasn't
               > any information concerning construction details for
the bridge deck, float
               > or fin.


               ...... you can do it twice
               1/8" plywood & cover glas only
               & using 5 x
               3/4" beams to support it athwards
               1 in the center
               2 on the outsides
               2 in between

               putting frames in places
               1/2" ply
               where the shape changes
               on bends

               my thing now is
               only using foam
               on the main hull
               below the wl
               or you can do it
               in strip planking

               the rest also 2x 1/8" ply



               > I'm sure the proper foil shape and size would be an
important part
               > of making this feature work correctly. Could you give
me more information.


               ...... best to make it
               a good sized radius
               on both ends
               about 1/4"
               then take a batten fastened on this radius
               and bend it toward  the center

               where it is then mostly flat

               so it will be all over a blunt shape
               not a sharp one

               so  not to stall out
               on take off

               www.proagenesis.org/vector_fin.htm

               there is now a explaination at the end




               > 2. Would it be possible to use the 2 mast version on
the 30' proa. I plan on
               > doing some extended offshore sailing and would like to
take advantage of the
               > self steering aspect of the 2 masted rig that you
mentioned.



               .... it should be very good
               I think

               also you have no sail
               over the cockpit area



               > Also, the 2
               > masted setup seems more "simple" both in design and
handling.


               ... the windward sail
               is a little more unfamiliar
               to use
               and with 2 masts you can cruise
               without the roller jibs




               > 3. I would like more details about the construction of
the sails. Material
               > used, are they cut flat, etc...


               ...just take a look at the surf sails

               well
               you can also just modify them for use
               by cutting off the luff pocket
               with a little more material
               a couple of inches
               from a straight line
               in the first third of it

               then put the slides on it



               > You are to be congratulated for your efforts and your
excellent web site. I
               > appreciate the results that you have achieved in this
design. With any idea
               > that goes against the "established" norms, it can take
time for innovative
               > solutions to find there place in the world.


               ... yes

               I know !

               a good thing would be
               if we had a cad office somewhere
               taking all I have here
               and putting it in a form
               so everybody could easily understand



               > I live in the Pacific Northwest and would love to
introduce this part of the
               > world to your designs.


               ... great !

                regards fritz

we have been coming to the conclusion
that there is no humanity here

but this is the planet of the apes

hello

               we have some interest in proas by the spanish
               community
               but only a very short introductory at
               www.proagenesis.org

               can anyone translate more ?

               you can post here or contact me directly

               thanks

               pg

are women all such imbeciles
               because of to many genes of the same kind ?

               XX

               is this -
               why they can not form one inteligent sentence ?
               give nothing from them with any meaning it all ?
               having no ability to cooperate with anything higher
               then some lowly animals in destroing the planet ?

               terrorising humans without end in giving forth
               propaganda of the most hidious kind  ?

never think automatically
something is wrong -
just because it does'nt seem to work -

it could be all the others are making
the wrong moves !

or think it is right - because it works -
because everbody could be dead wrong !

history shows us many examples of both ...

pt

--- In proadesign@yahoogroups.com, "proatechnology"
<proatechnology@y...> wrote:
> --- In proadesign@yahoogroups.com, "fritz_roth" <fritz.roth@p...>
> wrote:
> > <<<<<<<<<<<<
> >
> > it seems to me -
> > those earthlings don't want
> > to shape a future -
> > but dance on the titanic -
> > showing everbody how
> > irresponsible they are -
> > how cool they can be -
> >
> > they don't want to live .....
>
> but to dance on their way to extinction -
> showing everbody how proud they are -
> what a great success ....
>
> pt


to give every one the right
to make destructive propaganda -

to talk about liberty
to spoil the environment -

to free all the idiots on the planet -
to waste all our resources -

and to help
everybody perish in the end ...

gcc

--- In proadesign@yahoogroups.com, "fritz_roth" <fritz.roth@p...>
wrote:
> <<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> it seems to me -
> those earthlings don't want
> to shape a future -
> but dance on the titanic -
> showing everbody how
> irresponsible they are -
> how cool they can be -
>
> they don't want to live .....

but to dance on their way to extinction -
showing everbody how proud they are -
what a great success ....

pt

<<<<<<<<<<<<

it seems to me -
those earthlings don't want
to shape a future -
but dance on the titanic -
showing everbody how
irresponsible they are -
how cool they can be -

they don't want to live .....

galactic central to siera omega -

                if there is just plant & animal life
                to be found on planet earth -
                continue on to system siera proa .

                gcc

siera omega to galactic central -

                there seems to be no inteligent life
                on planet earth -

                recommend end of mission .

because there is no appreciation for solutions -
like the one presented here -
just an addiction to cherished problems -
like most everything else -

we have researched in the field of social science -
and found this amaising hypothesis to be true and valid >

http://de.geocities.com/siera_omega

there would be inteligent life somewhere !

developing inteligent solutions -
valueing an inteligent way of life -

that would really be paradise !

fritz

ist there really no inteligent life
an planet earth ?

who can value some better design ....

pt

siera omega to galactic central >

there seems to be no
inteligent life on planet earth -
recommend end of mission ..........

you can sail equally in any direction -
without having to turn the boat around !

you can look at any squall without fear
of having to hike out or reduce sailarea -
even in breaking waves !

selfsteering with out an autopilot !

you can go on stand by
any time you want to look at the bottom -
scenary !

drift controlled to any spot you want !

fritz

hello -

you are invited to discuss the new vectorfin proa -

check the bookmarks for additional information ..

fritz

hi -

do you know what a proa is ?

fritz

hello phil -

  welcome to the proadesign group -


  fritz

how are you doing ?
are you interested in modern proadesign ?
ok - lets talk about it ......

fritz