Ron,

Here's your post with my responses:

> 1. The notations - 1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years (times)
> always refers to the LAST HALF of  Dan's 70th week.
> No matter who these notations are used with, the ending point is
> ALWAYS the end of the week.
> A. Two witnesses begin at the mid point and are done at the end
> of the week.
> B. Beast begins his reign at the midpoint and it is over at the end
> of the week.
> C. The woman of Rev. 12 (faithful Israel) is protected in the
> wilderness from the midpoint of the week until the end.

Yes, I agree with this statement. Whenever we have an indication of 3-1/2
years (1,260 days, time, times and half a time, 42 months) it is referring to
the
second half of the 70th week.

> 2. The seals, trumpets and bowls are chronological, not
> overlapping or backtracking but are consecutive, one following
> upon the other. Most PWs recognize this and it is imperative that
> we come to agreement on it, because it affects one's whole view
> of the 70th week.

Once again, I agree. It is imperative if one is to properly understand
Revelation that one sees the chronological order of the seals, trumpets and
bowls. The 7th seal releases the trumpets, and the 7th trumpet releases the
bowls. There is no repetition of judgments or overlapping of these events.

> 3. The book of Revelation is chronological in its format BUT there
> are specific places where the language indicates a backtracking
> to a particular point and moving forward again from that point.
> However, such backtracking MUST be based on specific
> language that indicates it - which we can discuss later.

Also agreed. There are specific chapters and sections that are meant to fill in
details (eg. Ch. 12&13) and even parenthetical paragraphs. We will look at
these in more detail once we have the foundations issues agreed upon.

> 4. OK - what is seal #1.
> I know that Robert V. and Marv R. like to find a parallel between
> Mat. 24:5-8 and the first 4 seals. I don't agree with this - AND I
> suggest that the prewrath view does not NEED that parallel.
> I can proffer an alternate idea, but am willing to be unconvinced
> and convinced or reconvinced - or whatever happens as a result
> of our discussions.
> The factors in Matthew 24:5-8 are GENERAL, whereas, the
> factors of the seals are specific.
> The GENERAL factors of Matthew are historical trends that have
> been going on in various degrees every since 70 AD.
> The SPECIFIC factor of seal #1 is some ONE person succeeds
> in congering. This is NOT the beast, because seal #2 mentions
> the removal of THE peace from the earth, which indicates that
> seal #1 had established some kind of peace.
> I have already suggested that seal #1 represents the
> establishment of the 7-year covenant that brings PEACE to the
> middle east (if not elsewhere as well).
> Also, that seal #2 represents a SPECIFIC person who removes
> that peace from the earth, which corresponds with the breaking
> of the covenant in the middle of the week.

Here, as you probably suspect, is where we differ slightly. You are right that
the prewrath view does not NEED this parallel between Matt. 24 and Rev. 6.
There is sufficient proof in other passages and later when it comes to the sixth
seal to prove the prewrath rapture view. However, I also see the parallel
nature of Jesus' teaching in the Olivet Discourse and Jesus' revelation in the
book of Revelation. And us prewrath folks are not the first or only ones to see
this parallel. Here is the parallel:

Matt. 24:5  "For many will come in My name, saying,  `I am the Christ,' and will
mislead many. (Seal 1- The appearance of Antichrist)
Matt. 24:6  "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you
are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the
end.
(Seal 2 - War)
Matt. 24:7  "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom,
and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. (Seal 3 -
Famine)
Matt. 24:8  "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
Matt. 24:9  "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and
you
will be hated by all nations on account of My name. (Seal 4 - Death & Hades -
Beginning of Great Tribulation)

While it is true that Seal 2 represents war, will there not be some wars
between the signing of the covenant and the A of D at the midpoint? Doesn't
the Antichrist, according to Daniel, come against the nations that will not
accept His authority? While these wars may take place before the treaty is
signed, this is not demanded by Scripture.

Also, the midpoint will not bring war and the removal of peace for the world,
rather it will bring death to those who will not bow down to Antichrist. This
accords much better with seals 4 & 5, than seal 2.

Jesus was answering the disciples questions about the end of the age and
His coming. Why would he talk about general world conditions down
throughout history. No, He is begins at the very outset of His answer to answer
their questions and begins with events that will lead up to His coming.

And finally, Jesus said in Matthew that the false Christs, wars, famines and
earthquakes were the "beginning of birth pangs" and not yet the end. By
definition, birth pangs do not occur during the entire 9 months, but are
concentrated near the end of the pregnancy and increase in frequency and
severity as the birth nears. This should be a clue that He is not talking about
general world conditions throughout history, but events that are near the end,
near the delivery. I see the first 3 seals as the "beginning of birth pangs",
representing the first half of the 70th week, and the "hard labor", so to speak,
as those events associated with the Great Tribulation, seals 4&5. And the
parallels between these events of Matt. 24 and the seals of Rev. 6 confirm this.

Yours,

Gary V.
http://www.solagroup.org

Revelation 10 & 11:

Chapter 10, this is a different setting, a pivotal time of instruction
and information.  We see John with a clear view of earth, an angel that
makes you wonder if he is Jesus, comes down with a "little book" in his
hand, and he puts one foot on the land and one on the sea, then the
seven thunders utter their voices.  John was told not to record that the
voices said.  The angel then said, "there shall be delay no longer," or
we are at the beginning of the end perhaps. The next verse says,  7 but
in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to
sound, then is finished the mystery of God, according to the good
tidings which he declared to his servants the prophets.   Only 6
trumpets had sounded of the wrath of God in chapters 8 and 9, one more
yet to sound.  This chapter 10 and part of 11 appears to be a pause to
give different and added insight.

To finish chapter 10 John is told to take the book from the angel, the
book could represent the future revealed.  He took the book and as
instructed he ate it up and it was sweet in his mouth and bitter in his
stomach,  11 And they say unto me, Thou must prophesy again over many
peoples and nations and tongues and kings.  To clarify where we are here
with John, we were looking at the end, one minute, now the setting
changes and John is brought back to his now and shown, he will foretell
the future to us, you and I.  The future was sweet to receive and know,
but it will be bitter in experience as it is lived out.

  Chapter 11  The timing is back before the rapture and as the temple is
now rebuilt.  John is told to measure the temple, not sure why, but
measure not the court for it will be trodden under foot later by the
nations for 42 months, and we have read "the beast" (commonly referred
to as Antichrist by folk today, but never in scripture), the beast will
also have great authority for these  42 months started by the stopping
of the oblations in this temple.

We have just seen the first temple reference and the timing here may be
at the beginning of the last seven years or the 70th week of Daniel
9:27.  With the temple rebuilt and the covenant established with "the
prince," we have the two witnesses active for their 1260 days.  Again
these days may begin when the covenant with many is made, and last until
the offerings are stopped by the beast, AC.

Many believe the two witnesses may be Enoch and Elijah in that they have
never died a mortal death.  These two persons are described by symbolism
as olive trees, emblematic of strength and prosperity.  They are as
candlesticks which position the light.  These two beings stand before
the Lord of the earth, they do the Lord's work, which is described as
prophetic.

5 And if any man desireth to hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their
mouth and devoureth their enemies; and if any man shall desire to hurt
them, in this manner must he be killed. 6 These have the power to shut
the heaven, that it rain not during the days of their prophecy: and they
have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the
earth with every plague, as often as they shall desire.

We can only assume what their prophecy will be.  They do wonders and
then are killed (no doubt by the Antichrist as he starts his turn during
the last half of the week), they are raised, and ascend back into
heaven.  This is referred to as the second Woe.  The 2 witnesses control
over the rain and plagues coincides well with Zec 14:17 And it shall be,
that whoso of all the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem
to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, upon them there shall be no
rain.  18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, neither
shall it be upon them; there shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will
smite the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.  (At
the new Jewish temple.)

The rest of chapter 11 is the third Woe which is also the seventh
trumpet, the promised end of the mystery of God, final judgment. [Others
need to make the seventh trumpet the rapture, but folks it just isn't
here]  After the angel sounds this trumpet, voices in heaven proclaim,
(the voices of all the saints): The kingdom of the world is become the
kingdom of out Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and
ever.  And the 24 elders said,   We give thee thanks, O Lord God, the
Almighty, who art and who wast; because thou hast taken thy great power,
and didst reign.... And the time of the dead to be judged, and the time
to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,
and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy
them that destroy the earth.  THE END of this world age, but next the
story continues in chapter 12 from yet another prospective, Satan's part
in all of this is covered in chapters 12-13.

Don

Zechariah 14 seems to be primarily about Jerusalem, in the last days,
some of it is perhaps the first half of the 70th week!

  ---Starts out as the Gog Magog war begins, followed by its climax.

14:1 Behold, a day of the LORD cometh, when thy spoil shall be divided
in the midst of thee. 2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem
to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the
women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and
the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (Jerusalem
suffers the judgment of God by a partial defeat just before the Gog war,
any day now)  3Then shall the LORD go forth (during the Gog attack), and
fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives (people
will only see the effect of Yahweh's feet on the mount, great shaking),
which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the mount of Olives shall be
cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and
there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall
remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5And ye shall
flee by the valley of my mountains; for the valley of the mountains
shall reach unto Azel; yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before
the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

  ---This may very well be the war that is forming now against Israel,
and is related to the Gog Magog war of Ez 38-39.  At the beginning phase
of this war 2/3s of the Jews will die, this comes from recent
prophecies.  As time progresses in the war it ends with God's
intervention through cataclysmic events.  His feet standing on the mount
does not necessitate the second coming.  Although this has been the only
interpretation one ever hears.  If it is yours then we disagree.

  ---The following section, Jerusalem changes the time frame to "in that
day," Armageddon.

And LORD my God shall come, and all the holy ones with thee (this is Rev
19, Armageddon). 6And it shall come to pass in that day, that there
shall not be light; the bright ones shall withdraw themselves (sun moon
and stars): 7but it shall be one day which is known unto the LORD; not
day, and not night; but it shall come to pass, that at evening time
there shall be light.  8And it shall come to pass in that day, that
living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the
eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea: in summer and in
winter shall it be. 9And Yahweh shall be King over all the earth: in
that day shall the LORD be one, and his name one. 10All the land shall
be made like the Arabah, from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; and she
shall be lifted up, and shall dwell in her place, from Benjamin's gate
unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the
tower of Hananel unto the king's wine-presses. 11And men shall dwell
therein, and there shall be no more curse; but (New) Jerusalem shall
dwell safely.

  ---Next the time frame for Jerusalem moves back to the climax of the
Gog Magog war, and after that war the Jews and Israel will have "world
class" clout.

  12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the
peoples that have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh shall consume
away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away
in their sockets, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the
LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand
of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his
neighbor. 14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of
all the nations round about shall be gathered together, gold, and
silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15And so shall be the plague of
the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the
beasts that shall be in those camps, as that plague.  (At the end of the
Gog war the 70th week begins.)

  ---Here the temple is rebuilt, worship in the temple unto Jesus
Christ.  With the two witnesses for three and one half years prior to
the Antichrist authority of 42 months.  This is not the millennium.

16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the
nations that came against Jerusalem (in the Gog wars) shall go up from
year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the
feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall be, that whoso of all the families
of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD
of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain. 18And if the family of Egypt
go not up, and come not, neither shall it be upon them; there shall be
the plague wherewith the LORD will smite the nations that go not up to
keep the feast of tabernacles. 19This shall be the punishment of Egypt,
and the punishment of all the nations that go not up to keep the feast
of tabernacles. 20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the
horses, HOLY UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be
like the bowls before the altar. 21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in
Judah shall be holy unto the LORD of hosts; and all they that sacrifice
shall come and take of them, and boil therein: and in that day there
shall be no more a Canaanite (unbeliever) in the house of the LORD of
hosts.

  ---My conclusion: The Gog Magog (Russia/China) war first destroys
America/UK.  The Gog war next moves to Israel where Russia/China are
soundly defeated by God mainly through cataclysmic events, great loss of
life.  These events along with the revealing of the Ark of the Covenant
with Jesus' actual blood on its' mercy seat, cause the Jews to accept
Jesus as the Messiah that he is, at which time the covenant is made with
the prince, God the Son.  This covenant begins the 70th week.  Three and
one half years into this covenant, the Antichrist begins his 42 months
of authority by stopping the oblations (worship offerings).

If any are having problems here, compare the real Armageddon in Rev 19

ARMAGEDDON

Next the heavens expand and John sees Jesus on a white horse given the
names Faithful and True and in righteousness he doth judge and make
war.  His eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems
(a crown or ornamental headband) with a name written that he alone
knows.  His garment is sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The
Word of God.

14And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses,
clothed in fine linen, white and pure.  --Who makes up this army?  Those
wearing the fine linen, the saints of God!

  15And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should
smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he
treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the
Almighty.  -- Jesus' weapon is as always his words, and as we will see
the ruling with the rod of iron is mortal death to his enemies as he
treads out the wrath of God.  16And he hath on his garment and on his
thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud
voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come and be
gathered together unto the great supper of God; 18that ye may eat the
flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men,
and the flesh of horses and of them that sit thereon, and the flesh of
all men, both free and bond, and small and great. --Who could be left
out of this list, no one, all that remain on earth at this time have
chosen death by acceptance of the mark, all will now die.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies,
gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, and
against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false
prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them
that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his
image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with
brimstone: 21and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat
upon the horse, even the sword which came forth out of his mouth: and
all the birds were filled with their flesh. THE END of all mortal life
on the earth.

Review: who again is killed? Kings, captains, mighty men, them that sit
on horses, all men both free and bond small and great, and the rest were
killed with the sword of him (the WORD) that sat upon the horse.


Don

Has anyone ever asked, "what does the Bible say happens during the first
half of the 70th week?"  As I see it!  Again just before the 70th week
is the Gog Magog war.

Ezekiel 38 & 39: is Babylon pictured here?  a very brief summery.

38:1-9 In these verses God identifies those who he is against,  Gog, the
chief prince of Meshech and Tubal... 5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with
them; all of them with shield and helmet:  6Gomer, and all his bands;
the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many
people with thee.

After they are identified he tells them God will bring them against
Israel,  9Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a
cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with
thee.  --Here we have the introduction, next we have the specifics.

38:10-13  10Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall ALSO come to pass, that AT
THE SAME TIME shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an
evil thought:

It all will start with satanic thoughts of aggression, Gog's group will
first attack for spoil and power.  Please consider this.  Could the
first attack be against Babylon, the one in Rev 17 & 18?  Or is this all
the attack on Israel?  Let's compare the two, Babylon and Israel.  Here
one of them at this time is: "  11And thou shalt say, I will go up
(Israel is located down from Russia, America is up over the Artic) to
the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that
dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither
bars nor gates, (today in Israel everyone carries a gun)  12To take a
spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places
that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the
nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of
the land.  --Israel has almost no cattle.  America/Babylon not Israel is
described here.  America has much "prey" to be taken. They think they
are not vulnerable.  America is a recently developed country built by
people emigrated from many lands which now have much cattle  (100
million head today) and much goods (as Babylon has in Rev 18) and
Americans dwell IN the land, many people per square mile.

13Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young
lions thereof, shall say unto thee (Gog), Art thou come to take a spoil?
hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and
gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?  No one
would say this about anyone attacking Israel, but they would about
anyone successfully taking America.

38:14 and on to the end of 39 After Babylon these aggressors attack
Israel.  Here the reason is given,  16And thou shalt come up against my
people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the
latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may
know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
17Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time
by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days
many years that I would bring thee against them?  18And it shall come to
pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel,
saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. 19For in my
jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day
there shall BE A GREAT SHAKING in the land of Israel; 20So that the
fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the
field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the
men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence
(compare Zec 14:4), and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the
steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.  21And
I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith
the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother (the second
seal of rev). 22And I will plead against him with pestilence and with
blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many
people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones,
fire, and brimstone. 23Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself;
and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know
that I am the LORD.

Chapter 39 covers AFTER the Gog's defeat by God.  Israel will have fire
wood for 7 years and will plunder them who sought to plunder them.  It
will take 7 months the bury the dead of the Gog group. This starts the
70th week!

  23And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into
captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their
enemies: so fell they all by the sword. 24According to their uncleanness
and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my
face from them. 25Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring
again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of
Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

This phrase here is a curiosity: "Now will I bring again the captivity
of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel," Israel, not
Judea, some are saying the saved of the lost 10 tribes will actually
return to the land of Israel.  Some of us will no doubt remain to see if
this happens, and perhaps be among these.  Again, in the 70th week of
Daniel!

26After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses
whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their
land, and none made them afraid. 27When I have brought them again from
the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am
sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; 28Then shall they know
that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity
among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and
have left none of them any more there.  29Neither will I hide my face
any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of
Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

We note that a great shaking or earthquake will be involved in this
defeat of Gog.  Check out this: Zec 14:3 Then shall Lord God go forth,
and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is
before Jerusalem on the east; and the mount of Olives shall be cleft in
the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall
be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the
north, and half of it toward the south. 5And ye shall flee by the valley
of my mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azel;
yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the
days of Uzziah king of Judah.  --I believe this "his feet standing on
the mount of Olives" is in no way the second coming.  It is Jesus
personally rearranging things in and around Jerusalem, yet he is unseen
by mortals.

Ez Chapter 40 and on speaks of what some say is the soon to be rebuilt
Jewish temple.

Don

THE GREAT TRIBULATION, all other tribulation is everyday stuff.  Look at
the dead bodies in Russia and China and Africa, and soon to be in
America/Babylon.  Rom 8:36 Even as it is written, For thy sake we are
killed all the day long; We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that
loved us.  And the great tribulation is great because everyone alive at
one time is affected, and all the saints are threthened with death at
one point in time.

  15When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation,

  which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy
place (let him that readeth understand),

16then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains: 17let him
that is on the housetop not go down to take out things that are in his
house: 18and let him that is in the field not return back to take his
cloak. 19But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give
suck in those days! 20And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter,
neither on a sabbath: [this will happen on one certain day!]

15When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation,.... then shall be
great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world
until now, no, nor ever shall be.

Observation: the great tribulation is directly associated with seeing
the abomination of desolation.  This abomination of desolation will
stand in the holy place.  This occurrence, the standing of the
abomination in the holy place, constitutes and is the "great
tribulation."

Why?  Because the worst abomination toward God is when Satan incarnate
stands in the holy of holies and proclaims that he is God.  2 Thess
2:3...  man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, 4he that opposeth
and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is
worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself
forth as God.  This causes the one and only "great tribulation" because,
the second beast of Rev 13 will, "cause that as many as should not
worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16And he causeth all,
the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the
bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their
forehead; 17and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he
that hath the mark, even the name of the beast or the number of his
name.   Thus the reason in verse 16 for "them to flee" only when you see
this happen on one certain day.

It may be his added clout is in 13:3...and his death-stroke was healed:
and the whole earth wondered after the beast; 4and they worshipped the
dragon, because he gave his authority unto the beast; and they
worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? And who is
able to war with him?

So the "great tribulation." never before, never again is defined by the
requirement to take the mark or die.  It is very unlikely that this
could start with the stopping of the oblations at mid seventieth week
when the 1290 days are given between this and the setup of the
abomination in the temple.

Since the purpose of this forum is to find common ground and
consensus on Prewrath issues, perhaps it is a good idea to
begin to form a definitive Prewrath glossary.
The following is a suggested definition for The Tribulation.
I invite anyone to offer word changes, sentence changes,
additions, etc. so we can "post it" in our FILES section as an
OFFICIAL definition - as far as it is recognized by this group,
which by the way has within its number several who have an
established presence on the WEB for the prewrath position.


*********************************
TRIBULATION

The terms "the tribulation" and "the great tribulation," both refer to
a period of time that begins at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th
week. At this time, the man of lawlessness (the beast, the
antichrist, the willful king) begins his oppressive reign and the
persecution of both Christians and Jews. This is not an
expression of God's wrath, but  an expression of  Satan's wrath
and man's wrath toward God and His people on the earth.
It is of unknown duration, being interrupted (from an expected
1260 day duration) and brought to an end by the return of Jesus
in the clouds of the sky at the Day of the Lord, which will occur at
an unknown day and hour sometime at least 5 months before
the end of Daniel's 70th week.
**********************************

In grace,
ron -

I can see that we are going to have a wee bit of differences on
Revelation's chronology. Perhaps we can get them ironed out.

Gary V. suggested talking about the first 2 seals, which certainly
needs to be done - as in fact needs to be done for each of the
seals, trumpets bowls and several other details.
But perhaps we can try and get an agreed chronology for the
book of the Revelation, because it makes for serious differences
and problems when the inherent chronology is not recognized.

Points for discussion in order to find agreement:
1. The notations - 1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years (times)
always refers to the LAST HALF of  Dan's 70th week.
No matter who these notations are used with, the ending point is
ALWAYS the end of the week.
A. Two witnesses begin at the mid point and are done at the end
of the week.
B. Beast begins his reign at the midpoint and it is over at the end
of the week.
C. The woman of Rev. 12 (faithful Israel) is protected in the
wilderness from the midpoint of the week until the end.

2. The seals, trumpets and bowls are chronological, not
overlapping or backtracking but are consecutive, one following
upon the other. Most PWs recognize this and it is imperative that
we come to agreement on it, because it affects one's whole view
of the 70th week.

3. The book of Revelation is chronological in its format BUT there
are specific places where the language indicates a backtracking
to a particular point and moving forward again from that point.
However, such backtracking MUST be based on specific
language that indicates it - which we can discuss later.

4. OK - what is seal #1.
I know that Robert V. and Marv R. like to find a parallel between
Mat. 24:5-8 and the first 4 seals. I don't agree with this - AND I
suggest that the prewrath view does not NEED that parallel.
I can proffer an alternate idea, but am willing to be unconvinced
and convinced or reconvinced - or whatever happens as a result
of our discussions.
The factors in Matthew 24:5-8 are GENERAL, whereas, the
factors of the seals are specific.
The GENERAL factors of Matthew are historical trends that have
been going on in various degrees every since 70 AD.
The SPECIFIC factor of seal #1 is some ONE person succeeds
in congering. This is NOT the beast, because seal #2 mentions
the removal of THE peace from the earth, which indicates that
seal #1 had established some kind of peace.
I have already suggested that seal #1 represents the
establishment of the 7-year covenant that brings PEACE to the
middle east (if not elsewhere as well).
Also, that seal #2 represents a SPECIFIC person who removes
that peace from the earth, which corresponds with the breaking
of the covenant in the middle of the week.

I guess this is plenty to work with for now -
In grace,
ron -
http://www.biblefragrances.com

Time line:

     Soon now is war in Israel with the U.S. involved, nuclear weapons
used, terrorism in America, worldwide economic collapse, America
attacked and over run by Russia and China mainly, this is the beginning
of the Gog war.  They disagree and China pushes Russia back to Paris,
they rejoin and all attack Israel in the completion of the Gog-Magog war
and are soundly defeated by God.

     Next the 70th week of Daniel starts, the firm covenant with the
prince Jesus and the many is made.  The Ark of the Covenant is made
known, the Jewish temple rebuilt.  The two witnesses appear for their
1260 days.  There will be a short time when literal New Testament days
will be reenacted on a gigantic scale, miracles unlimited at the hands
of all the saints.  The "10 tribe" return to Israel is here possible.

    In the middle of the 70th week Antichrist begins his 42 months
authority, the two witnesses work ends, the worship oblations in the
temple are stopped by Antichrist. This is a time of security, no war.
Antichrist brings out all the suppressed advanced technologies and
appears to solve the world's problems, which problems he blames on the
Christians.  There is great deception and martyrdom worldwide increases
from here on out.

    At the end of the 70th week, 1290 days after the oblations were
stopped, Antichrist is assassinated and raises back to life, and results
in him entering the temple setting himself up as God, and part of the
abomination is[mark of the beast], the world church demands all to
worship the "beast," 45 days later is the Rapture/Resurrection: 1335
days after the oblations were stopped. This ends the 70th week.  Being
able to be saved has now ended, from this point on is the progress of
judgment and reward.  What follows immediately is the wrath of God on
earth, the marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven.

    At the end of the 2300 days from when the offerings were stopped, or
965 days after the rapture, the temple is cleansed, at Armageddon.  The
saints return with Christ and watch as Antichrist and the head of the
world church are slain and cast into the lake of fire..  The rest of
mankind who accepted the mark will be killed at this time followed by
chapters 20 - 22 of Rev.

     Many folk have it some other way and that is ok, we will know for
sure as it happens.  Don

Hello All, I've read your responses with great interest,

What follows is a file I keep to give my view of Revelation chapter 6,
the seals.  As an added explanation I believe that the Babylon account
of chapters 17 and 18 is not in chronological sequence.  Chapters 15 and
16 are the wrath of God on earth with the saints gone.  After the angel
shows John this there is a break, the angel invites John to see Babylon
and its' fall.  And in those chapters we see Antichrist not yet come to
power.  So my premise is the fall of Babylon is the first end time event
pictured in outline form here in chapter 6.

Also regarding the use of terms, I see God's judgments on the nations
while they are nations and upon individuals and these judgment are unto
repentance.  Tribulations, these are on the saints on earth 90% of the
time in scriptures and it comes from Satan and his agents.  The wrath of
God is always from God on the hopelessly damned both living and dead,
the living especially those who took the mark of the beast.

The "great tribulation" as I now see it is related to the abomination
that maketh desolate.  This is Antichrist in the rebuilt Jewish temple
claiming to be God with the one world church demanding all to worship
Antichrist, the beast.  I really cannot see this lasting for years, it
will take years of maneuvering by Antichrist to gain this kind of
power.   Dan 12:11 And from the TIME that the daily sacrifice shall be
taken away, and the (TIME) abomination that maketh desolate set up,
there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.   12Blessed is he
that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and
thirty days.

Revelation 6: the beginning of the end.

Chapter 6 opens with judgments being executed on the earth, no otherwise
specific location on the earth is given.  Since the 4 horsemen are here
at the beginning of the end, we need to have some idea of what is really
happening time wise in relation to the whole story.  When we read of the
Gog Magog war, which is an end time event from Ezekiel 38-39, we read
that after this war, regarding the weapons used against Israel, "they
(Israel) shall make fires of them seven years."  When we read of the
destruction of Babylon in Rev 17-18, we read that Babylon is overcome
before and in preparation for the Antichrist to benefit from Babylon's
loss of power.  What we are here looking at may also be world conditions
just prior to the final seven years, or the 70th week of Daniel.  Again,
the Gog war starts with an attack on Babylon which is sucessful, they
move on to Isreal and are defeated.  And the Israel phase is not in this
chapter.

I believe the riders of these horses are designated angels who execute
God's judgment on the rebellious nation.  "And there was given unto THEM
authority over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and
with famine, and with death, and by the wild beasts of the earth."
Jesus opens the seals and then each of the four living creatures, which
are before the throne of God, in turn call forth one of the four
horseman who then brings judgment, by their AUTHORITY.

6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard
one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder,
Come. 2And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon had
a bow; and there was given unto him a crown: and he came forth
conquering, and to conquer.

A bow; and there was given unto him a crown: and he came forth
conquering, and to conquer.  A bow represents weapons that fly, and the
crown, centralized political authority,  Jer 50:14 Put yourselves in
array against Babylon round about: all ye that bend the bow, shoot at
her, spare no arrows: for she hath sinned against the LORD.  This could
be God's ordained destruction of the Babylon of Rev 17-18.

3 And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature
saying, Come. 4 And another horse came forth,  a red horse: and to him
that sat thereon it was given to take peace from the earth, and that
they should slay one another: and there was given unto him a great
sword.

Take peace from the earth, and that they should slay one another: and
there was given unto him a great sword.   "Slay one another," not
necessarily an organized attack, but general lawless anarchy for one
forth of the worlds population.

5And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature
saying, Come. And I saw, and behold, a black horse; and he that sat
thereon had a balance in his hand. 6And I heard as it were a voice in
the midst of the four living creatures saying, A measure of wheat for a
shilling, and three measures of barley for a shilling; and the oil and
the wine hurt thou not.

A measure of wheat for a shilling, and three measures of barley for a
shilling; and the oil and the wine hurt thou not (The 'oil' and the
'wine' may represent the work of the Holy Spirit, no economic disaster
can hinder the work of the Spirit.).  Included in the above war and
lawlessness one would expect economic collapse, a quart of wheat for a
days wage.  Babylon, the most prosperous nation in the world.

  7And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth
living creature saying, Come. 8And I saw, and behold, a pale horse: and
he that sat upon him, his name was Death; and Hades followed with him.

This rider kills with Death, the noun, would suggest, chemical and
biological weapons.  And note also, the vast majority killed enter Hades
and not heaven.

And there was given unto them authority over the fourth part of the
earth, to kill with sword, and with famine, and with death, and by the
wild beasts of the earth.

"Authority over the fourth part of the earth," is this one fourth part
of the population or is it in relationship to land mass?  This last
statement refers to all four of the horsemen, to kill with sword, and
with famine, and with death, and by the wild beasts of the earth.  It
may mean one out of four will die by: weapons, famine, disease from
biological weapons, and starving wild beasts, the beasts being
reestablished and protected everywhere now, with people fleeing into
their habitat looking for refuge.  (Gun control, wolves, cougars,
grislys)

In the fifth seal we see an all together different scene, time wise we
have to be looking at all martyrs that have been and are yet to be
slain.  From this verse we see saints being martyred after the above
judgments take place.  Martyrs right up to and put an end to by the
rapture, so we can see the rapture implied here.  After all the martyrs
are all in, then God's wrath will fall on the earth in vengeance,
prewrath.

  9And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the
souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the
testimony which they held: 10and they cried with a great voice, saying,
How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge
our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And there was given them to
each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest
yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their
brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled
their course.

The sixeth seal is again another picture, this time after the rapture
and near the very end.  Compares well with Rev 16:18, same earthquake.
This is no doubt the vengeance requested by the martyrs.

12And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great
earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole
moon became as blood; 13and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth,
as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great
wind. 14And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and
every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the
kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the
rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in
the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; 16and they say to the
mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him
that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17for the
great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?

But in the next verse which is in chapter 7 we jump right back to a time
before the rapture, we read of an angel with the seal of God 3saying,
"Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we shall have
sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."  The big time
hurting of the earth is reserved for the "wrath of God" on the earth
after all the saints are gone, (pre-wrath).

Notice the chronology in chapter 6.  The opening of end-time event, the
war.  Next a picture of all the martyrs, and that martyrdom will be
common right up to the end, and their request to be avenged.  Lastly
here, the martyr's avenged, Armageddon is previewed.  There is logical
sequence of events here, but not with every event included in that
order.

Ron,

You are correct that in the definition both terms should be used.

Gary

PS. You mentioned seals 1 & 2 in another post. Can we talk a bit about the
identification of the seals, unless you had somewhere else you wanted to go?

> I understand this, and agreed that usually the term "great
> tribulation" should be used. However in a FORMAL definition,
> should not both terms be included as I did?
> Otherwise, the definition is not complete. It needs to be stated in
> such a way that both terms "tribulation" AND "great tribulation"
> are covered. If our definition is limited to the term great trib, then
> someone will ask - ok - BUT what is "the tribulation."
> I suggest that my definition covers that base by identifying both
> terms as referring to the same period of time.
>
> In grace,
> ron -

Don,

You write:
>
> I cannot help but believe that the "great tribulation" is related
to the
> "abomination of desolation" in Daniel that is setup 1290 days after
the
> oblations are stopped by "Antichrist" in the middle of the 70th
week.
> And that the abomination is described in 2 Thess. 2:3...that man of
sin
> be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth
himself
> above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as
God
> sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. And
then
> 45 days later, (1290days minus 1335days equals 45 days), blessed is
that
> man, because this is the rapture!

We need to clarify a few things.

1. Yes, the Great Tribulation is related to the A of D, which takes
place at the
midpoint of Daniel's 70th Week (Dan. 9:27). This event begins the
Great
Tribulation.

2. The GT is cut short by Christ (Matt. 24:22) when he comes in the
clouds to
rapture His elect (the church) and begin the Day of the Lord - this
event
happens after the sign of the 6th seal, and before the opening of the
7th seal.

3. Dan. 12:11 states: "And from the time that the regular
sacrifice is abolished,
and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290
days. " This
does not mean that there are 1,290 days between the abolishing of the
sacrifice and the abomination of desolation. No, these are one and
the same
event as Dan. 9:27 points out. The sacrifices are abolished when the
abom. of
des. is set up. This verse in Daniel is stating that from this event
of abolishing
the sacrifices and setting up the A of D (which is at the midpoint),
there will be
1,290 days (that is, 30 days longer than the end of the 70th week),
until the
destruction of the Prince (Antichrist) and the removal of the A of D.

4. The great persecution of believers will begin at the midpoint and
continue
until the rapture just after the 6th seal is opened.The total time of
persecution
is not known, but will be probably at least a year and no more than 3
years.

5. As Ron said, the blessing that comes at the 1,335 days (or 75 days
after the
70th week ends) is the Millennial Kingdom. For some charts that lay
all of this
out, please visit The Sign Ministries website at h
ttp://www.signministries.org

Gary

Hi Dennis,
The purpose of this forum is to try and sort details out and come
to as much agreement among PWs as possible.
You write:

dk>>The faithful are tortured, starved and murdered by the
Anti-Christ for three and a half years. Then the Anti-Christ sets
himself up in the temple and the faithful might even have to
endure his atrocities for yet another month and a half before the
rapture happens. <<

It sounds like you are suggesting that the persecution by the
antichrist is for the ENTIRE 2nd 3 1/2 years, and THEN, this
"another month and a half before the rapture," is indicating that
the rapture occurs after that last 45 days of Dan. 12:12.

The church is NOT persectued for 3 1/2 years, but ONLY for as
long as God delays the sending of the Son. The time of
persecution (G. trib) begins at the midpoint of Dan's 70th week
and goes until it is CUT SHORT by the arrival of the Jesus at the
Day of the Lord, at an unknown day and hour.
After the rapture there still must take place:
A. the trumpet judgments (at LEAST 5 months long, probably
longer).
B. the bowls of FINAL wrath - about 26 days in length
C. And then armageddon at the end of that 26 days.
D. And then the 45 days after Armageddon until the OFFICIAL
setting up of Messiah's kingdom.

In grace,
ron -

Hi Don,

1. don>22And except those days should be shortened, there
should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days
shall be shortened. [They are shortened because if they were not
stopped by the rapture, no one would be left alive of the saints of
God.]<

Of course this is possible - that it refers to the end of the trib at
the end of the EXPECTED duration of 1260 days.
However, it  COULD also refer to an INTERRUPTION.
We learn that the trib ends before the end of the 1260 days when
we realize that the 6th seal announces the day of the Lord and
the coming of Jesus. This ends the trib.
But there are still many things left and much time left of that final
1260 day period. The trumpets come from the 7th seal as the
first expression of God's judgment on the world. But it is not at
the end of Dan's 70th week.

2. don>I cannot help but believe that the "great tribulation" is
related to the"abomination of desolation" in Daniel. . .<<

The great trib IS related to the ab/des, for this is exactly what
Jesus taught at Matthew 24:15-21

3. don>that is setup 1290 days after the oblations are stopped by
"Antichrist" in the middle of the 70th week.<

Daniel 12:11 needs to be read very carefully.

Dan. 12:11   "And from the time that the regular sacrifice is
abolished, and the abomination of desolation is set up, {there
will be} 1,290 days (NASB).

The abom/des is not set up 1290 days AFTER.
The verse says that FROM the time that the sacrifice is abolished
(which is the midpoint of the 70th week) will be 1290 days.
That means that it will be that long until the abomination is
removed. It will be removed after Armageddon which occurs at
the end of that 30 days - in connection with bowls #6 & 7.

5. don>And then 45 days later, (1290days minus 1335days
equals 45 days), blessed is that man, because this is the
rapture!<

The rapture occurs at the day of the Lord, and it is very clear that
the day of the lord occurs at seal #6. And that leaves much time
for the trumpet judgments.
The rapture cant occur after the 45 days because that marks the
very beginning of Messiah's earthly kingdom.
I suggest that "blessed be that man" because he has survived
the sheep and goat judgment of mat. 25 and gets to go alive into
the kingdom.

In grace,
ron -

Hi, Dennis.

Think you're new to this forum? Join the club! This forum is still just
an infant, so we're all new!

I disagree with you, though, that we won't recognize the first seal when
it is opened. I strongly feel that there is a purpose for the seals
beyond testing and refining believers, and that is as a time of
evangelization for the world before Christ's return. Jesus frequently
referred to His Second Coming as being like the days of Noah, and what
was Noah doing as he prepared the ark? Preaching! I believe that the
seals will be the most powerful time of evangelization in world has ever
known, and that Christians ó knowing time is short ó will be bolder than
we can even begin to imagine today. As during the time of terrible
persecution during Nero, I believe that our witness during the Great
Tribulation will bring many more to Christ. For this reason, I believe
that discerning believers will recognize the first seal, and this will
kick off the greatest evangelistic explosion in world history.

In Christ,

H. L.


H. L. Nigro
Before God's Wrath: the Bible's Answer to the Timing of the Rapture
www.strongtowerpublishing.com

kallemeynd@... wrote:

> I probably should not be putting my two cents in, since I'm new to
> this forum but...
>
> JC said, "In this world you will have trouble" (tribulation). It seems
> to me that we are (and have been for a long time) having
> "tribulation". I prefer the terms "Great Tribulation" or sometimes,
> "Daniel's 70th Week". Besides, we may not recognize the first couple
> of seals until some time after the fact.
>
> As far as term usage goes: Even if I'm discussing the Rapture with my
> Episcopal Mother-In-Law, she understands what I mean by "Great
> Tribulation". (On the other hand, most of my Christian Reformed
> relatives remain willfully clueless, so none of these terms carries
> much confusion on their parts!:-)
>
> Anyway, I'm sticking with "GT" and "D70W". These work better for short
> questions to other believers. You don't have to redefine as many terms
> before asking.
>
> Dennis Kallemeyn
>
> On Fri, 19 October 2001, ptronw@... wrote:
>
> >
> > Not fair for the ladies to gang up against the moderator!!
> > Let's see - -  where's that button now . . . . . .
> >
> > OK - I agree that it probably causes more misunderstanding
> > than not and there is no NEED to use "the tribulation" when we
> > have the perfectly fine term "the great tribulation" which will not
> > (hopefully) be misunderstood, and "the 70th week" should
> > communicate without confusion as well.
> >
> > But I have had no problem in verbal conversations using the
> > term "tribulation" and STRESSING home the proper definition -
> > even to the point of interrupting and correcting when someone
> > uses the term as a reference to the whole 70th week time
> > period.
> > REPETITION is learning power - and I have no problem
> > repeating myself as much as needed to get the point across.
> >
> > Is it not then probably an individual thing - so that anyone who
> > uses the more COMMON terms must take it upon himself to
> > make certain that he is not misunderstood - and if he does not
> > want to spend time on that, then use the other terms??
> >
> > You see - I dont mind using the term GAY in its proper meaning -
> > and let people question me and inquire, and I never use the term
> > to refer to a homosexual.
> > I am stubborn and will not let error and evil or whatever else is
> > involved MAKE ME succumb to the prevalent theories or mind
> > set.
> >
> > ANYWAY - after all that - I concede that IN GENERAL the
> > avoidance of confusion is best.
> >
> > Next term:  Day of the Lord??
> > In grace,
> > ron -
> > www.biblefragrances.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> ___________________________________________________
> The ALL NEW CS2000 from CompuServe
> Better!  Faster! More Powerful!
> 250 FREE hours! Sign-on Now!
> http://www.compuserve.com/trycsrv/cs2000/webmail/
>
>
>
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                         ADVERTISEMENT


>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I mean discretion... :) oops.

In Christ

H. L.


H. L. Nigro
Before God's Wrath: the Bible's Answer to the Timing of the Rapture
www.strongtowerpublishing.com

ptronw@... wrote:

> Not fair for the ladies to gang up against the moderator!!
> Let's see - -  where's that button now . . . . . .
>
> OK - I agree that it probably causes more misunderstanding
> than not and there is no NEED to use "the tribulation" when we
> have the perfectly fine term "the great tribulation" which will not
> (hopefully) be misunderstood, and "the 70th week" should
> communicate without confusion as well.
>
> But I have had no problem in verbal conversations using the
> term "tribulation" and STRESSING home the proper definition -
> even to the point of interrupting and correcting when someone
> uses the term as a reference to the whole 70th week time
> period.
> REPETITION is learning power - and I have no problem
> repeating myself as much as needed to get the point across.
>
> Is it not then probably an individual thing - so that anyone who
> uses the more COMMON terms must take it upon himself to
> make certain that he is not misunderstood - and if he does not
> want to spend time on that, then use the other terms??
>
> You see - I dont mind using the term GAY in its proper meaning -
> and let people question me and inquire, and I never use the term
> to refer to a homosexual.
> I am stubborn and will not let error and evil or whatever else is
> involved MAKE ME succumb to the prevalent theories or mind
> set.
>
> ANYWAY - after all that - I concede that IN GENERAL the
> avoidance of confusion is best.
>
> Next term:  Day of the Lord??
> In grace,
> ron -
> www.biblefragrances.com
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                         ADVERTISEMENT


>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, Ron.

Just got back from my weekend so I'm catching up. One quick thought to
add to your post ó one way we might strike a balance is to use only the
formal terms, the great tribulation and Daniel's 70th Week, in print,
where no questions can be asked and the meaning the reader takes from
the printed word is the only meaning they will get, at least at that
moment. In conversations, however, where we can watch or otherwise gauge
the listener's reaction and correct any misunderstandings before they
occur, we might then use our discrection.

In Christ,

H. L.


H. L. Nigro
Before God's Wrath: the Bible's Answer to the Timing of the Rapture
www.strongtowerpublishing.com

ptronw@... wrote:

> Not fair for the ladies to gang up against the moderator!!
> Let's see - -  where's that button now . . . . . .
>
> OK - I agree that it probably causes more misunderstanding
> than not and there is no NEED to use "the tribulation" when we
> have the perfectly fine term "the great tribulation" which will not
> (hopefully) be misunderstood, and "the 70th week" should
> communicate without confusion as well.
>
> But I have had no problem in verbal conversations using the
> term "tribulation" and STRESSING home the proper definition -
> even to the point of interrupting and correcting when someone
> uses the term as a reference to the whole 70th week time
> period.
> REPETITION is learning power - and I have no problem
> repeating myself as much as needed to get the point across.
>
> Is it not then probably an individual thing - so that anyone who
> uses the more COMMON terms must take it upon himself to
> make certain that he is not misunderstood - and if he does not
> want to spend time on that, then use the other terms??
>
> You see - I dont mind using the term GAY in its proper meaning -
> and let people question me and inquire, and I never use the term
> to refer to a homosexual.
> I am stubborn and will not let error and evil or whatever else is
> involved MAKE ME succumb to the prevalent theories or mind
> set.
>
> ANYWAY - after all that - I concede that IN GENERAL the
> avoidance of confusion is best.
>
> Next term:  Day of the Lord??
> In grace,
> ron -
> www.biblefragrances.com
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                         ADVERTISEMENT


>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings All, I just joined this list because I consider myself one of
you, post-trib, prewrath, but I have some different slants.  I hope it
is ok to share them? Forgive me if I'm jumping ahead.

Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso
readeth, let him understand:) [here I just dropped out  the
warnings].... 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
(one of a kind). 22And except those days should be shortened, there
should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be
shortened. [They are shortened because if they were not stopped by the
rapture, no one would be left alive of the saints of God.]

I cannot help but believe that the "great tribulation" is related to the
"abomination of desolation" in Daniel that is setup 1290 days after the
oblations are stopped by "Antichrist" in the middle of the 70th week.
And that the abomination is described in 2 Thess. 2:3...that man of sin
be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself
above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God
sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. And then
45 days later, (1290days minus 1335days equals 45 days), blessed is that
man, because this is the rapture!

Don

Gary,
You suggest:
>>Your definition seems biblically accurate, however I would add
my voice to the chorus of others that we stick to the term "The
Great Tribulation" whenever possible to be sure we are
communicating most clearly. This is a biblical term
(Rev. 7:14) and I feel communicates best.<<

I understand this, and agreed that usually the term "great
tribulation" should be used. However in a FORMAL definition,
should not both terms be included as I did?
Otherwise, the definition is not complete. It needs to be stated in
such a way that both terms "tribulation" AND "great tribulation"
are covered. If our definition is limited to the term great trib, then
someone will ask - ok - BUT what is "the tribulation."
I suggest that my definition covers that base by identifying both
terms as referring to the same period of time.

In grace,
ron -

Ron,

Your definition seems biblically accurate, however I would add my voice to the
chorus of others that we stick to the term "The Great Tribulation" whenever
possible to be sure we are communicating most clearly. This is a biblical term
(Rev. 7:14) and I feel communicates best.

Gary Vaterlaus
National Instructor, Sola Scriptura
gvaterlaus@...
http://www.solagroup.org




--- In prewrathonly@y..., ptronw@y... wrote:
> Suggested DEFINITION:
> Available for editing -
> *********************************
> TRIBULATION
>
> The terms "the tribulation" and "the great tribulation," both refer to
> a period of time that begins at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th
> week. At this time, the man of lawlessness (the beast, the
> antichrist, the willful king) begins his oppressive reign and the
> persecution of both Christians and Jews as an expression of
> Satan's wrath and man's wrath toward God and His people on
> the earth. It is not an expression of God's wrath.
> It is of unknown duration, being interrupted (from an expected
> 1260 day duration) and brought to an end by the return of Jesus
> in the clouds of the sky at the Day of the Lord, which will occur at
> an unknown day and hour sometime at least 5 months before
> the end of Daniel's 70th week.
> **********************************
>
> In grace,
> ron -

Suggested DEFINITION:
Available for editing -
*********************************
TRIBULATION

The terms "the tribulation" and "the great tribulation," both refer to
a period of time that begins at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th
week. At this time, the man of lawlessness (the beast, the
antichrist, the willful king) begins his oppressive reign and the
persecution of both Christians and Jews as an expression of
Satan's wrath and man's wrath toward God and His people on
the earth. It is not an expression of God's wrath.
It is of unknown duration, being interrupted (from an expected
1260 day duration) and brought to an end by the return of Jesus
in the clouds of the sky at the Day of the Lord, which will occur at
an unknown day and hour sometime at least 5 months before
the end of Daniel's 70th week.
**********************************

In grace,
ron -

Dennis suggested:
>Besides, we may not recognize the first couple of seals until
some time after the fact.<

This introduces another issue:
What exactly IS first seal.
I suggest that the rider on the white horse is the world ruler who
makes the 7-year covenant of Daniel 9:27 which officially begins
the 70th week of Daniel.
Some PWs want this to correspond with "wars and rumors of
war" of Matthew 24.
But it seems to me that the first seal institutes a time of PEACE,
through his POLITICAL machinations (bow without an arrow)
which is what is removed at the 2nd seal, "THE peace from the
earth."
And that the "wars and rumors . . . nation aganst nation, " etc.
refers to the GENERAL nature of history from 70AD UNTIL the
covenant is signed. Just as is seen at the end of Daniel 9:26
(after the destruction of the city and sanctuary - in 70 AD), "and
unto the end there will be war - a decree of desolations."

Concerning recognition of the 1st seal - ie, the signing of the
7-year covenant, we may indeed not know the details
immediately, but we will soon know when the Jews construct a
sanctuary and start their animal sacrifices.

Concerning recognition of the 2nd seal - ie, the removal of THE
peace from the earth. If, as I believe, this is when the world ruler
becomes the beast and begins his oppressive reign known as
the great tribulation. I think this will be recognized right away -
because the slaying of this world ruler (if it is contemporary - as I
believe) will be PUBLIC and his healing will be PUBLIC, etc.

In grace,
ron -
http://biblefragrances.com/pages/proph.html

Following is an analysis of all the Old Testament DOL passages
(that mention the term directly). This can be a working outline to
come to a definition - at least from the perspective of the OT.
When does the day begin?
How long does it last?
And then a general list of main things that happen during it.
--
DAY OF THE LORD in the Old Testament
It is imperative to see that the Day of the LORD is an extended
period of time and not just ONE 24 hour day. An analysis of Old
Testament passages should convince of this truth.

BEFORE the day of the LORD
1. Economic and religious hardship for the Jews in Palestine
during the  time of Jacob's distress. Joel 1:13-20
2. Edom's oppression of Israel in the day of their distress. Ob.
10-14
	 (Zeph. 2:8, Moab and Ammon are oppressing Israel)
3. Unbelievers in Israel will be longing for the DAY, thinking that
it  will be deliverance for them. Amos 5:18
4. But the nation is in apostasy and that DAY will be darkness
and not  light. (unbelievers will be removed in judgment). Amos
5:20
5. Warning and preparation before the DAY. Joel 2:1
6. Exhortation to wait for God in view of His coming judgments.
Zeph.
7. Elijah will come and provide an evangelistic appeal to Israel.
Mal.4:5
8. Plea for humility. Zeph. 1:7
9. Spiritual recovery is exhorted through humility adjustment to
God's  standards. Zeph. 2:1-3
10. Elijah's ministry will produce many Jewish converts. Mal. 4:6
11. Earthquakes and heavenly signs precede the DAY. Joel 2:6
12. Signs and wonders in the sky and on the earth. Joel 2:30-31
13. Signs of the DAY's arrival will cause great terror.
Is.13:7-8, 10, 13.
14. Potential for conversion and deliverance before the DAY. Joel
2:32
15. Those who will be delivered are described as having moral
and  spiritual integrity. Amos 5:14-15
16. Those who adjust to God on His terms before the DAY, will
escape  judgment. Zeph. 2:3
17. The issue in deliverance is escape OUT FROM the Day of the
Lord  judgments (curse). Mal. 4:6b

DESCRIPTION of the day of the LORD
1. Destruction from the Almighty. Joel 1:15
2. Day of darkness and gloom, clouds and thick darkness. Joel
2:2a
3. Indeed great and very awesome. Joel 2:11b
4. Darkness and not light.  Amos 5:20
5. Destruction from the Almighty. Isaiah 13:6
6. Cruel; burning anger; desolate the land; exterminate sinners.
Is. 13:9
7. Punish the world for its evil; put an end to the proud. Isaiah
13:11
8. A sacrifice prepared by God. Zephaniah 1:7b
9. Title: Day of the Lord's sacrifice: Zephaniah 1:8
10. Title: Day of the Lord's wrath:  Zephaniah 1:18
11. Title: Day of the Lord's anger: Zephaniah 2:2
12. Day of clouds; time of doom for the nations. Ezekiel 30:3

DURING the day of the LORD

1. An invasion by a Northern army:  Joel 2:2b-9
	    A. The army is mustered and guided by God as the permissive
      side to His  plan is administered. Joel 2:11a
	    B. Judgment on the land of Judah:  ecological, religious and
       physical.  Zephaniah 1:2-6
	    C. Judgment on the whole land of Canaan. Zephaniah 2:4-7
	    D. judgment on leadership of Israel. Zephaniah 1:8-12
	    E. Houses and lands of Israel pillaged by invading army.
           Zeph. 1:13  (cf. Zech. 14:2)
	    F. Massive destruction from an invading army.
         Zephaniah  1:14-18
	    G. Oppression by invading armies. Isaiah 13:14-16

2. Great population depletion through judgment. Isaiah 13:12
3. Complete end of the inhabitants of the land. Zephaniah 1:18b
4. During the warfare, a sword on Egypt. Ezekiel 30:4a
5. Anguish on Ethiopia:  Ezekiel 30:4b
6. Egypt is plundered: Ezekiel 30:7
7. Egypt's allies will fall by the sword.  Ezekiel 30:8
8. Assault on Ethiopia will be administered by messengers in
ships (king of the West). Ezekiel 30:9
9. Divine destruction of the invading army in order to deliver
Israel.  Joel 2:18
	      A. The Northern army will be split into 3 parts & destroyed.
            Joel 2:20.
	     B. The deliverance will be complete and permanent.
           They will never  again be a reproach.  Joel 2:19

10. Edom will be judged.  Obadiah V. 10-15
	 Egypt and Edom will be judged.  Joel 3:19
11. Israel will participate in a military victory over Edom. Obad. V.
18
12. Moab and Ammon will be physically defeated by Israel. Zeph.
2:9
13. All nations will be gathered to the valley of judgment. Joel
3:1-3
	    A. All nations will be judged in Israel. Obadiah V. 15-16
   	 B. The gathering is described at Joel 3:9-14

14. The Lord descends to the valley after first being in
Jerusalem.  Joel 3:15-16
	    A. Massive darkness precedes the Lord's arrival at the
valley.
          Joel 3:15
	    B. At the time of this final victory, God will deal with all her
		     enemies and save the afflicted. Zephaniah 3:16-19

15. There will be many converts during the Day. Zeph. 3:9a
16. Evangelistic impact from the judgments.  Ezekiel 30:8a
17. On Mt. Zion, Jewish believers will escape the judgment
which comes  upon the nations.  Obadiah V. 17a

AFTER the day of the LORD

1. Then the Messiah will dwell in Zion. Joel 3:17
2. After the defeat of the invaders and restoration to national
honor,  the Holy Spirit will be given to the people of Israel. Joel
2:26
3. Celebration in view of Messiah's 2nd advent victory. Zeph.
3:14-17
4. Israel will possess her divine land grant. Obadiah V. 17b,
19-21
	    A. Remnant of Israel will possess the land of Canaan. Zeph.
2:7
	    B. After the defeat of Moab and Ammon. Zeph. 2:9
	    C. Kingdom prosperity and blessing. Joel 2:21-27
		       (v. 26, never put to shame again).
   	 D. Economic prosperity in the kingdom. Joel 3:18
   	 E. Fulfillment of Israel's covenant promises. Joel 3:20-21
   	 F. Kingdom promotion and blessing - Israel regathered.
            Zeph. 3:20

5. After the judgments, all surviving nations will acknowledge
divine  sovereignty.  Zeph. 2:11b
6. During the kingdom, all peoples will worship God. Zeph.
3:9b-10
7. The kingdom remnant in Israel. Zeph. 3:11-13

In grace,
ron -
http://biblefragrances.com/pages/proph.html

I probably should not be putting my two cents in, since I'm new to this forum
but...

JC said, "In this world you will have trouble" (tribulation). It seems to me
that we are (and have been for a long time) having "tribulation". I prefer the
terms "Great Tribulation" or sometimes, "Daniel's 70th Week". Besides, we may
not recognize the first couple of seals until some time after the fact.

As far as term usage goes: Even if I'm discussing the Rapture with my Episcopal
Mother-In-Law, she understands what I mean by "Great Tribulation". (On the other
hand, most of my Christian Reformed relatives remain willfully clueless, so none
of these terms carries much confusion on their parts!:-)

Anyway, I'm sticking with "GT" and "D70W". These work better for short questions
to other believers. You don't have to redefine as many terms before asking.

Dennis Kallemeyn

On Fri, 19 October 2001, ptronw@... wrote:

>
> Not fair for the ladies to gang up against the moderator!!
> Let's see - -  where's that button now . . . . . .
>
> OK - I agree that it probably causes more misunderstanding
> than not and there is no NEED to use "the tribulation" when we
> have the perfectly fine term "the great tribulation" which will not
> (hopefully) be misunderstood, and "the 70th week" should
> communicate without confusion as well.
>
> But I have had no problem in verbal conversations using the
> term "tribulation" and STRESSING home the proper definition -
> even to the point of interrupting and correcting when someone
> uses the term as a reference to the whole 70th week time
> period.
> REPETITION is learning power - and I have no problem
> repeating myself as much as needed to get the point across.
>
> Is it not then probably an individual thing - so that anyone who
> uses the more COMMON terms must take it upon himself to
> make certain that he is not misunderstood - and if he does not
> want to spend time on that, then use the other terms??
>
> You see - I dont mind using the term GAY in its proper meaning -
> and let people question me and inquire, and I never use the term
> to refer to a homosexual.
> I am stubborn and will not let error and evil or whatever else is
> involved MAKE ME succumb to the prevalent theories or mind
> set.
>
> ANYWAY - after all that - I concede that IN GENERAL the
> avoidance of confusion is best.
>
> Next term:  Day of the Lord??
> In grace,
> ron -
> www.biblefragrances.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


___________________________________________________
The ALL NEW CS2000 from CompuServe
  Better!  Faster! More Powerful!
  250 FREE hours! Sign-on Now!
  http://www.compuserve.com/trycsrv/cs2000/webmail/

Not fair for the ladies to gang up against the moderator!!
Let's see - -  where's that button now . . . . . .

OK - I agree that it probably causes more misunderstanding
than not and there is no NEED to use "the tribulation" when we
have the perfectly fine term "the great tribulation" which will not
(hopefully) be misunderstood, and "the 70th week" should
communicate without confusion as well.

But I have had no problem in verbal conversations using the
term "tribulation" and STRESSING home the proper definition -
even to the point of interrupting and correcting when someone
uses the term as a reference to the whole 70th week time
period.
REPETITION is learning power - and I have no problem
repeating myself as much as needed to get the point across.

Is it not then probably an individual thing - so that anyone who
uses the more COMMON terms must take it upon himself to
make certain that he is not misunderstood - and if he does not
want to spend time on that, then use the other terms??

You see - I dont mind using the term GAY in its proper meaning -
and let people question me and inquire, and I never use the term
to refer to a homosexual.
I am stubborn and will not let error and evil or whatever else is
involved MAKE ME succumb to the prevalent theories or mind
set.

ANYWAY - after all that - I concede that IN GENERAL the
avoidance of confusion is best.

Next term:  Day of the Lord??
In grace,
ron -
www.biblefragrances.com

Greetings, brothers and sister:-),

I will have to agree with H.L. on this issue.

"The tribulation" is a VERY COMMONLY USED term.  However, I would guess
that 99% of those people have a false understanding of what it means.  If
WE use this term, their preconception will prevent them from hearing what
we are REALLY trying to say.  We say TRIBULATION, and they hear, WRATH!

Example: Back in the olden days, "gay" meant happy.  The dictionary said
happy; that was the commonly accepted meaning, and I don't know of anyone
who officially CHANGED the meaning.  However, the primary use of the word
today is something quite different.  We can tell other people the original
meaning until we are blue in the face, but every time we use it to describe
how we feel, they will look at us funny, and they may eventually forget
that we mean it a different way from everyone else.  We say GAY, they hear
HOMOSEXUAL!

I get a lot of mail from my website http://lookup.org.  I find the greatest
problem in communicating with other believers who are sincerely seeking
Biblical truths is their preconceived notions about terminology and event
sequencing.  If I tell them one thing, they will put MY POINT together with
two they got from Rev. JohnDoe, and then argue against the logical result,
arguing against something I never said.

I grew up pretrib, and there were SO MANY little things I was told all
along that I had to get rid of in order to START FROM SCRATCH, so to speak.
  When we use THEIR terminology, but mean something different by it, we
greatly increase the risk of being misunderstood.  It will take us MORE
TIME to reword so that the correct message gets through, assuming we
realize that we have been misunderstood.  I don't have any "inside
information" but I don't feel like we have the luxury of time to waste in
warning our brothers and sisters.

Uses of "the tribulation" in the Bible:
KJV, NASB - Matt 24:29 (referring back to great tribulation in v 21)
NASB - Rev 1:9 (experienced by the apostle John)
Not in NIV, New RSV
I don't think the Bible uses the phrase "the tribulation" enough for us to
NEED to use it.

Just my opinion:-)

Sheila Sternberg
RAPTURE PAGES http://lookup.org


>H.L. writes:
>I feel strongly that the term "the Tribulation" should not be used
>by prewrath proponents because it carries with it an erroneous
>connotation that brings with it misunderstanding and confusion.
>I suggest that prewrath proponents stick with the two biblical
>terms  given to us for this discussion: Daniel's 70th Week and
>the Great  Tribulation.

Shalom,

Sheila

http://lookup.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
When you were born, you were crying and everyone around you
was smiling.  Live your life so that when you die, you're
the one who is smiling and everyone around you is crying.
-----------------------------------------------------------

In terms of the true definition, no argument here. My only concern is
that, because the term "the Tribulation" has become so strongly
associated with pretrib doctrine and the pretrib (and even posttrib and
midtrib) definition, to try to use it in its proper definition would be
like fighting an uphill battle. Every time it is used, we'd have to
explain the proper definition in which it is used. Listeners would be
fighting two battles: trying to understand the position being described
and, at the same time, translating the pretrib vocabulary into prewrath
vocabulary. Daunting task.

If our goal is to communicate the prewrath position to others, I would
suggest avoiding the term altogether. Not that it should be abandoned in
the most technical sense ó at least, within accepted prewrath camps that
understand the term's proper use ó but at least when communicating with
folks of other positions since it will make an already difficult task
more difficult. If we start with the 70th Week and the Great Tribulation
only, I believe it would help to avoid confusion.

After all, WE may understand the distinctions and can use the term "the
tribulation" without confusion, but the others with whom we are
communicating might not.

In Christ,

H. L.


H. L. Nigro
Before God's Wrath: the Bible's Answer to the Timing of the Rapture
www.strongtowerpublishing.com

ptronw@... wrote:

>
> H.L. writes:
> I feel strongly that the term "the Tribulation" should not be used
> by prewrath proponents because it carries with it an erroneous
> connotation that brings with it misunderstanding and confusion.
> I suggest that prewrath proponents stick with the two biblical
> terms  given to us for this discussion: Daniel's 70th Week and
> the Great  Tribulation. To use the term "the Tribulation period" is
> to perpetuate  this confusion and error and, for the sake of
> accuracy, should be abandoned altogether. <<
>
> Ok - I understand this concern. But perhaps the term, "the
> tribulation" is ok and the term "the tribulation period" is ok .
> Consider: We should not throw out valid terminology just
> because it has been misused or may be subject to
> misinterpreation. Probably every term is subject to that - and
> always requires explanation.
> But - - the term "the tribulation" occurs at Matthew 24:29, "after
> the tribulation of those days."
> And Mark does not even use the word GREAT in connection with
> the trib. - Mark 13:19, "for those days will be (a) tribulation," and
> at verse 24, "after THAT tribulation."
> Consider: there is a period of time that is 7 years in length - and
> we call it the 70th week of Daniel because no where in Scripture
> is it every really identified. But we can validly call it "a 7-year
> period of time," can't we?
> AND - there is a period of time within those 7 years that is
> identified as " (a) tribulation," (Mat. 24:9); "great tribulation,"
> (Mat.
> 24:21); "the tribulation of those days," (Mat. 24:29); "that
> tribulation," (Mark 13:24); "the great tribulation," (Rev. 7:14); AND
> Daniel 12:1 calls it, "a TIME (eth, Hebrew) of distress," (which
> could also be translated as a "period" of distress.)
>
> It seems valid therefore that we can use the term "tribulation" -
> but it needs to be understood as it is used in the Bible.
> AND - we can use the term "time of tribulation" - but it needs to
> be uderstood as it is used at Daniel 12:1
> And even "period of tribulation" because it refers to the same
> PERIOD of time - Ie, that IS what it is - a period of time.
> Just because others use the terms to refer to SEVEN YEARS,
> does not mean that we should not use the terms. They just need
> to be used properly.
>
> My whole point was that we should not be sloppy and use any of
> the trib terms to refer to the SEVEN YEAR period of Dan's 70th
> week- just because that is how they are traditionally used.
> But to use all the terms and CLARIFY what they really mean in
> any of our writings or talks, is both valid and NECESSARY.
> In grace,
> ron -
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

H.L. writes:
I feel strongly that the term "the Tribulation" should not be used
by prewrath proponents because it carries with it an erroneous
connotation that brings with it misunderstanding and confusion.
I suggest that prewrath proponents stick with the two biblical
terms  given to us for this discussion: Daniel's 70th Week and
the Great  Tribulation. To use the term "the Tribulation period" is
to perpetuate  this confusion and error and, for the sake of
accuracy, should be abandoned altogether. <<

Ok - I understand this concern. But perhaps the term, "the
tribulation" is ok and the term "the tribulation period" is ok .
Consider: We should not throw out valid terminology just
because it has been misused or may be subject to
misinterpreation. Probably every term is subject to that - and
always requires explanation.
But - - the term "the tribulation" occurs at Matthew 24:29, "after
the tribulation of those days."
And Mark does not even use the word GREAT in connection with
the trib. - Mark 13:19, "for those days will be (a) tribulation," and
at verse 24, "after THAT tribulation."
Consider: there is a period of time that is 7 years in length - and
we call it the 70th week of Daniel because no where in Scripture
is it every really identified. But we can validly call it "a 7-year
period of time," can't we?
AND - there is a period of time within those 7 years that is
identified as " (a) tribulation," (Mat. 24:9); "great tribulation," (Mat.
24:21); "the tribulation of those days," (Mat. 24:29); "that
tribulation," (Mark 13:24); "the great tribulation," (Rev. 7:14); AND
Daniel 12:1 calls it, "a TIME (eth, Hebrew) of distress," (which
could also be translated as a "period" of distress.)

It seems valid therefore that we can use the term "tribulation" -
but it needs to be understood as it is used in the Bible.
AND - we can use the term "time of tribulation" - but it needs to
be uderstood as it is used at Daniel 12:1
And even "period of tribulation" because it refers to the same
PERIOD of time - Ie, that IS what it is - a period of time.
Just because others use the terms to refer to SEVEN YEARS,
does not mean that we should not use the terms. They just need
to be used properly.

My whole point was that we should not be sloppy and use any of
the trib terms to refer to the SEVEN YEAR period of Dan's 70th
week- just because that is how they are traditionally used.
But to use all the terms and CLARIFY what they really mean in
any of our writings or talks, is both valid and NECESSARY.
In grace,
ron -

Ron,

I agree completely with your analysis of the time periods mentioned. I
feel strongly that the term "the Tribulation" should not be used by
prewrath proponents because it carries with it an erroneous connotation
that brings with it misunderstanding and confusion.

I suggest that prewrath proponents stick with the two biblical terms
given to us for this discussion: Daniel's 70th Week and the Great
Tribulation. To use the term "the Tribulation period" is to perpetuate
this confusion and error and, for the sake of accuracy, should be
abandoned altogether.

In the second edition of Before God's Wrath, I do use the term "the
Tribulation period" in quotes in the first two chapters because most
general readers will not be familiar with the 70th Week of Daniel. Once
this concept is introduced in chapter two, however, I alert the reader
to the fact that from that point on, only the proper term, the 70th
Week, will be used.

I do not know the origin of the term "the Tribulation period." Was it a
pretrib construction? Or was it around beforehand?

In Christ,

H. L.


H. L. Nigro
Before God's Wrath: the Bible's Answer to the Timing of the Rapture
www.strongtowerpublishing.com

--- In prewrathonly@y..., ptronw@y... wrote:
> Probably the first thing that needs to be established and agreed
> upon is the proper definition and use of the term TRIBULATION.
> There are several prewrathers (PWs) who continue to use the
> term in the traditional sense of refering to the entire 7 years of
> Daniel's 70th week.
> The bible makes it clear that the tribulation begins at the
> midpoint of the week and not before. Matthew 24:9-29
> establishes this:
>     "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation (affliction)." verse 9
>     "THEREFORE when you see the abomination . . ." verse 15
>  "for THEN there will be great tribulation. . ." verse 21
>
> The tribulation then is the time when the man of lawlessness
> begins his oppressive reign on the earth and persecutes both
> Israel and the church (Revelation 12). Since his reign goes for
> 42 months (1260 days), the EXPECTED length of the tribulation
> would be the same. However, Jesus teaches that the time of
> tribulation would be "cut short" or "amputated," that is,
> INTERRUPTED from its expected length, by the return of Jesus
> in the clouds of the sky.
> This is the basis for not knowing the day or the hour, because
> "The Son of Man will come at an hour that you think not,"
> (Matthew 24:44).
> The two primary Old Testament passages are Jeremiah 30:5-7,
> and Daniel 12:1-7. At Jeremiah, there is no time factor
> mentioned, but Israel will be delivered from the affliction (tsarah,
> in the Hebrew) through the intervention of the Lord, followed by
> the establishment of the kingdom. Accordingly, this deliverance
> from affliction will happen through the Day of the Lord coming of
> the Messiah.
>
> At Daniel 12:1, the same Hebrew word, tsarah, is used, when we
> read, "There will be a time of distress." But this time the LXX
> (Greek translation of the Old Testament) uses the word thlipsis.
> The beginning of the tribulation is seen to be the midpoint of the
> week, when Michael stands aside so that the forces of
> lawlessness can begin the oppression of God's people (both
> national Israel and Christians). However, the time factor in that
> context is not giving us the end of "the time of distress," but
> rather the end of the period of time alotted to the man of
> lawlessness, which is 42 months - or 3 1/2 years (Times, a time
> and half a time). The key to this is to realize that the beast reigns
> for the full 1260 days - and for that matter continues in existance
> for 30 days after that, but once the Lord returns and begins to
> pour out His judgments (just recompense - ekdikesis, Greek, 2
> Thessalonians 1:8), then the ability of the beast to carry out his
> program of oppression will be greatly impeded - to such an
> extent in fact, that it can be said, that the time of tribulation is cut
> short, even while the beast is still alive and reigning.
>
> 1. The tribulation begins at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week.
> 2. It is interrupted before the end of that week at some unknown
> day, when Jesus returns in the clouds of the sky.
> 3. The remaining amount of time from the inception of the day of
> the Lord until the end of the week is unknown, but there must be
> AT LEAST 5 months remaining because the 5th trumpet
> judgment, which occurs AFTER the day-of-Lord return of Jesus,
> lasts for 5 months (Revelation 9:5), and that is only because it is
> the only TIME factor mentioned. It is more reasonable to see
> several more months than those 5 in order for all the events of
> the 6 trumpet judgments to take place. But of course, any
> mention of how long is simply guess work. I suggest that the
> Lord retuns anywhere from 6 to 24 months before the end of the
> week.
>
> 4. It is only confusing for everyone when PWs continue to use the
> term tribulation for the entire 7 years of Daniel's 70th week.
>
> In grace,
> ron -

Probably the first thing that needs to be established and agreed
upon is the proper definition and use of the term TRIBULATION.
There are several prewrathers (PWs) who continue to use the
term in the traditional sense of refering to the entire 7 years of
Daniel's 70th week.
The bible makes it clear that the tribulation begins at the
midpoint of the week and not before. Matthew 24:9-29
establishes this:
     "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation (affliction)." verse 9
     "THEREFORE when you see the abomination . . ." verse 15
	 "for THEN there will be great tribulation. . ." verse 21

The tribulation then is the time when the man of lawlessness
begins his oppressive reign on the earth and persecutes both
Israel and the church (Revelation 12). Since his reign goes for
42 months (1260 days), the EXPECTED length of the tribulation
would be the same. However, Jesus teaches that the time of
tribulation would be "cut short" or "amputated," that is,
INTERRUPTED from its expected length, by the return of Jesus
in the clouds of the sky.
This is the basis for not knowing the day or the hour, because
"The Son of Man will come at an hour that you think not,"
(Matthew 24:44).
The two primary Old Testament passages are Jeremiah 30:5-7,
and Daniel 12:1-7. At Jeremiah, there is no time factor
mentioned, but Israel will be delivered from the affliction (tsarah,
in the Hebrew) through the intervention of the Lord, followed by
the establishment of the kingdom. Accordingly, this deliverance
from affliction will happen through the Day of the Lord coming of
the Messiah.

At Daniel 12:1, the same Hebrew word, tsarah, is used, when we
read, "There will be a time of distress." But this time the LXX
(Greek translation of the Old Testament) uses the word thlipsis.
The beginning of the tribulation is seen to be the midpoint of the
week, when Michael stands aside so that the forces of
lawlessness can begin the oppression of God's people (both
national Israel and Christians). However, the time factor in that
context is not giving us the end of "the time of distress," but
rather the end of the period of time alotted to the man of
lawlessness, which is 42 months - or 3 1/2 years (Times, a time
and half a time). The key to this is to realize that the beast reigns
for the full 1260 days - and for that matter continues in existance
for 30 days after that, but once the Lord returns and begins to
pour out His judgments (just recompense - ekdikesis, Greek, 2
Thessalonians 1:8), then the ability of the beast to carry out his
program of oppression will be greatly impeded - to such an
extent in fact, that it can be said, that the time of tribulation is cut
short, even while the beast is still alive and reigning.

1. The tribulation begins at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week.
2. It is interrupted before the end of that week at some unknown
day, when Jesus returns in the clouds of the sky.
3. The remaining amount of time from the inception of the day of
the Lord until the end of the week is unknown, but there must be
AT LEAST 5 months remaining because the 5th trumpet
judgment, which occurs AFTER the day-of-Lord return of Jesus,
lasts for 5 months (Revelation 9:5), and that is only because it is
the only TIME factor mentioned. It is more reasonable to see
several more months than those 5 in order for all the events of
the 6 trumpet judgments to take place. But of course, any
mention of how long is simply guess work. I suggest that the
Lord retuns anywhere from 6 to 24 months before the end of the
week.

4. It is only confusing for everyone when PWs continue to use the
term tribulation for the entire 7 years of Daniel's 70th week.

In grace,
ron -

Welcome to the PreWrath Only discussion group.
This is brand new, and the actual beginning point has not been
established yet. Perhaps the best place to begin however, is to
establish definitions and attempt to come to a point of
agreement on key terms such as: tribulation, Day of the Lord,
wrath, second coming, rapture, and of course,  any other issues
that need to be given a clear and concrete definition.

In grace,
ron -