Frank Just curious - do you think Sokrates presents himself as having intended to get Ceph to retire from the conversation? Regardless of the self presentation...
Bill, I'm not so sure about Socrates intending to get Cephalus to retire; more likely he was just attempting to turn the conversation toward considerations of...
Hi Frank Hm - this just puzzles me more - Plato portrays Sokrates portraying himself as attempting to turn a conversation to a more overtly philosophical...
Hi there, I took proto-Christian to indicate the characteristics that were later to be found in the cult of Christianity. Cephalus acknowledges that his...
Phil Sorry but this is still unclear to me on a few points. Probably none are important. First I do not know what characteristics were later to be found in the...
Hi all! I'd like to offer some observations about Soc. and Cephalus that have more to do with the setting than with a detailed analysis of the conversation. It...
Hello William, I've answered your first question when I made the link between Cephalus being God fearing and Christianty. For Cephalus being moral and being...
Tony There is much to sink one's teeth into here. To see the need for security that motivates Kephalus and the need for friends that motivates Polemarchus, I...
Bill, I'm glad to have a companion in puzzlement! I meant a Socratic-philosophical, a "what is X" type issue. And perhaps with a bit of distortion of Cephalus'...
Hi Frank, I have been pondering this remark that Plato might have hoped readers would detect the inadequacies in Socrates's responses. Whilst it can't be ruled...
Phil, Inadequacies needn't equate with "pretty lame," 'tho they sometimes might. But here's a hypothesis. In Bk 1 Soc raises questions about and criticizes,...
Very interesting response Frank (its making me think). Thanks for posting this. Phil In plato-republic@yahoogroups.com, "Williams, Frank" <Frank.Williams@> ......
Bill, you're right about the use of the word "moral" and "morally," especially in light of Bernard Williams' excoriation of the concept in Kant. Concerning...
Frank Another hypothesis - if you read closely - the notions in books 2-10 are not Sokrates' but rather what he draws out of Gl and Ad... Seems to me that...
Frank This starts to make some sense - Sokrates needs to banish Kephalus in order to create the Republic in Speech. On the other hand he does not banish...
Tony Although K Pol and Th are not Athenians, do they not become citizens of the Polis in Speech created yesterday by Sokrates? I disagree with respect to...
Bill, I wrote too hastily by including Thrasymachus under the rubric of those who implicitly hold a kind of selfish view of dikaiosune. I should have...
Hi Tony Let us leave Thrasy to another day. I would like to hear your calculation of Polly and his need for friends. BTW I am not sure that the fact that P...
Tony Just curious but what evidence is there for the claim about Thrasymachus below? ... of those who implicitly hold a kind of selfish view of dikaiosune. I ...
Bill Would you agree that in so far as Plato appears to be trying to persuade his readers towards a certain conclusion his arguments can be criticised (by...
Hi Phil, and Bill Phil, why do you think it essential to read the works written by Plato as if Plato is, himself, one of the characters in each of the works? ...
Phil, I suggest it might be more fruitful if we readers were to think of how logic intersects with character in Plato's works rather than speculating about the...
Phil I am not suggesting by the analogy of Shakespeare and Plato that criticism is impossible. I am trying to point to the fact that both are works of fiction...
Bill, I think I am in substantial agreement with your response to Phil, especially in your suggestion that we "appreciate that this [i.e. a character's ability...
Thankyou for your comments Michael, Tony, Bill. Michael: You ask why I think it is essential to read Plato as one of the characters in Republic. I don't think...
Phil, Some of your comments lead me to wonder about the role of arguments v. other means of persuasion in the Republic. What most readers (including lots of...
Tony Remind me of what response you would like comment on? Any chance we could spend time looking to Polemarchus? It need not be done instantly - just wondered...
Phil Well the dance continues - we enter the fugue! You find the analogy to Bach beside the point. Which point? Plato's works contain arguments surely. But...
Frank ... Well one might then turn to modern rhetoric as presented to us daily and ask are valid arguments convincing? I recall a former US president asking,...
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