> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: plato-republic@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:plato-republic@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
> Lancelot Fletcher
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 21. Mai 2009 12:10
> An: plato-republic@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [plato-republic] Natures
>
> For those who might wish to pursue the question of what was meant by
> "many natures" in the passage at 473d, here, thanks to the Perseus
> search facility, is a list of all the passages in the Republic in
> which the word "natures" appears:
>
> Plato, Republic Less
> (English) (Greek)
> book 2, section 370a: ... occurs to me myself that, to begin
> with, our
> several natures are not

This passage has an immediate and an extended context. Both contexts entail the
question of whether what Socrates says he said (yesterday) is what he is saying
(also today) on his own account, as an argument as it were, or whether virtually
nothing he said yesterday was said on his own account or on his own behalf.

The opening of the extended context for the 370a passage is at 368c, where what
was at issue is vision of the soul, i.e., seeing souls. 368c opens the so-called
"city-soul analogy," which -- contrary to almost all opinions ever expressed on
this issue -- is not an analogy Socrates generated to make any positive argument
on his own behalf, and is rather am image as in a mirror of how Adeimantus
believes the issue of justice can be explored. The idea is, as a test-case, to
try to look for justice in the "larger letters" of the city rather than try to
see these "letters" of justice in the soul, which we -- as far as our "natures"
are concerned -- is too great a task for us, indeed too great because we are not
gods and do not have their natures -- as if it were a small thing. Socrates --
to cut a wonderful potential discussion on the details short for the moment --
underscores the questionableness of the whole enterprise from the outset by
adding that investigating the larger might reveal something about the smaller
"IF, of course, they do happen to be the same." How would you ever know that
they ARE the same? From what perspective or vantage point could you ever make a
suitable comparison to establish samness or difference? Fact: there is no such
standpoint. The issue of the small-lettered-soul is the prelude to the issue of
"natures" because the "natures" are the different souls, IF, of course, we can
investigate the city-generated-in-speech and then draw any conclusion about
justice in the soul. At 371 e, when the city (so-called) has been generated on
the basis of assigning "different natures" to their jobs, Socrates asked
Adeimantus whether the city was "complete." The whole point, after all, was to
look at the city and then use that to see the soul, and justice is a feature of
soul. Adeimantus (371e) conceded he had a problem with that, because the city
was generated but he couldn't say where justice was, and he couldn't say because
he couldn't see it, because it was not to be seen. Up to that point, at least,
the hypothetical procedure of applying a city-soul analogy failed and obviously
so, and, if we look at the detail of the business about identifying "many
natures," we may find that the failure was due to the means by which the attempt
to identify these "natures" was carried out.

The extended context that opens at 368c has its prelude in Adeimantus' own
expressed expectation of what Socrates can accomplish, at 367e. Socrates should
not only dish up an effective argument proving that justice is stronger than
injustice, he should show what each, justice and injustice, in itself does to
the man who has it. So Socrates is to peer into souls and to show what is there
concerning the effects of justice and injustice, "whether it has been hidden
from gods and human beings heretofore or not" (Bloom's translation changed for
the sake of literalness). Socrates, according to Adeimantus, is to accomplish a
vision and a showing of what neither gods nor men may have seen before. What is
Socrates' "nature" if he can accomplish what Adeimantus demanded? If we refer to
the 370a passage, we are talking about "many natures" on the basis of both the
set-to-fail city-soul little/large letter analogy, AND on the basis of a
discussion in which Socrates supposedly set out to do what Adeimantus demanded,
i.e., to see what no god or man had seen before.

It would therefore be highly precarious to proceed on the assumption that there
is any common referent identified by the "natures" of the 370a passage and the
"natures" of the 473d passage more than the echo of the sound of the words. And
common referents is, after all, just what is at issue in the set-to-fail
city/soul analogy.

We may now consider the next passage.

> book 2, section 374e: ... we are able, to select which and what kind
> of natures are suited for the guardianship of a state.”

Again Socrates underscores the questionabless of engineering the composition of
a city on the basis of assigning "natures." Why, the reader will ask, would
Socrates embark on a procedure that he identifies up front as questionable, and
is this questionmabless real? "IF we are able," says Socrates. ARE we able? Is
this a question for Adeimantus? If not, we can try to make it a question for
Adeimantus by showing that and how the engineering breaks down in the face of
the question at issue, justice, injustice and their effects on the soul. If
Adeimantus is not aware that he presumes the power to control nature by
engineering cities, we set out to show him that he carries this assumption in
his "nature," and his nature articulates this assumption.

"Our job" SEEMS TO BE (Socrates 374e) to select the natures fit for guarding the
city, IF we are able. Why does it "seem so"? It seems so on the basis of the
whole background of context of Adeimantus' demand upon Socrates, with its
included presumption concerning Socrates' nature and its powers of vision. For
Adeimantus it is not a question, there is no problem marching headlong into
oblivion: "Indeed, it is our job." "By Zeus," replied Socrates, "it is no mean
thing we've taken upon ourselves...." And then follows the philosopher-dog
discussion with Glaucon. Here, too, Socrates spoke with Glaucon about "natures"
as if the dog which is friendly to anyone it knows by physical sight is
therefore a lover of knowledge, and as if the philosopher is a lover of
knowledge. There is clearly a difference between Adeimantus' hybris and
philosophical eros-and-madness.

"By Zeus!" says Socrates. Why does he say that, why did he say it yesterday?
What does the invocation "mean"? -- Well, we know that Adeimantus had already
placed Socrates' powers beyond those of Zeus because Socrates can ostensibly see
and show what zeus never saw. Adeimantus is unaware of his hubris. Socrates is
aware that what they are doing is hybristic. The salvation from hubris is then
comedy, which is Glaucon's philosopher-dog.

> book 2, section 375d: ... We failed to note that there are after all
> such natures as we thought impossible, endowed with these opposite
> qualities.

And is that proven by the "natural phenomenon" of Glaucon's philosopher-dog?
Book-readers have assumed for ages that Socrates here makes his own argument.
But it is, after all, GLAUCON's dog, and not Socrates' dog, even if Socrates
articulates the dog, whereas Glaucon, who does not know his own nature, does
not.

Enough for now.

Best regards,

George




> book 3, section 409a: ... the body, but it must have been
> inexperienced in evil natures and uncontaminated by them
> while young,
> if it is
> book 3, section 410e: ... himself. is that the guardians should
> possess both natures.” “It is.” “And must they not
> book 4, section 423d: ... too must be sent to the task for
> which their
> natures were fitted, one man to one work, in order
> book 4, section 424a: ... a sound nurture and education if kept up
> creates good natures in the state, and sound natures in turn
> receiving
> an education of this sort develop
> book 5, section 453c: ... the women ought to do the same
> thing, though
> their natures are so far apart?’ Can you surprise me with
> book 5, section 453e: ... can find a way out. We did agree that
> different natures should have differing pursuits and that the nature
> of ... women differ. And yet now we affirm that these differing
> naturesshould have the same pursuits. That is the indictment.
> book 5, section 454b: ... contentiousness.” “In what way?” “The
> principle that natures not the same ought not to share in the ... to
> define it when we assigned different pursuits to different
> natures and
> the same to the same.” “No, we
> book 5, section 454c: ... ,” I said, “we might ask ourselves
> whether the natures of bald For this humorously trivial illustration
> cf. Mill,
> book 5, section 454d: ... that a man physician and a man carpenter
> have different natures?” “Certainly, I suppose.” “Similarly,
> then,” said
> book 5, section 456b: ... ” “By all means.” “And to the same
> natures must we not assign the same pursuits?” “The
> book 5, section 473d: ... power and philosophic intelligence, while
> the motley horde of the natures who at present pursue either apart
> from the other
> book 6, section 485c: ... must not have this further quality
> in their
> natures.” “What quality?” “The spirit of truthfulness,
> reluctance
> book 6, section 497c: ... in truth divine and all the others
> human in
> their natures and practices. Obviously then you are next, going to
> book 6, section 499c: ... ?” “It is.” “If, then, the best
> philosophical natures have ever been constrained to take charge of the
> book 7, section 519c: ... founders, then,” said I, “to compel the
> best natures to attain the knowledge which we pronounced the greatest,
> book 7, section 526c: ... must use it in the education of the best
> endowed natures.” “I agree,” he said. “Assuming this
> book 7, section 535a: ... you must suppose that we have to choose
> those same natures. The most stable, the most brave and enterprising
> Intellectually
> book 7, section 536a: ... for any of these purposes the crippled and
> base-born natures, as their friends or rulers.” “It is so
> book 7, section 539d: ... take part in such discussions must have
> orderly and stable natures, instead of the present practice For the
> idiom μὴ
> book 8, section 548e: ... I, “in that, but I do not think their
> natures are alike in the following respects.” “In what
> book 8, section 557b: ... civilization to confirm Plato's judgement
> concerning the variety of natures to be found in the democratic
> state.” De
> book 8, section 564e: ... When all are pursuing wealth the most
> orderly and thrifty natures for the most part become the richest.”
> “It
> book 9, section 582b: ... experiencing the sweetness of the pleasure
> of learning the true natures of things, The force of οὐ extends
> through
> book 9, section 588c: ... sort of an image?” he said. “One of those
> natures that the ancient fables tell of,” said I,
>
> In case Yahoo removes the previous paste, here is the same thing in
> plain text:
>
> Plato, Republic
> Less
> (English) (Greek)
>
> book 2, section 370a: ... occurs to me myself that, to begin
> with, our
> several natures are not
> book 2, section 374e: ... we are able, to select which and what kind
> of natures are suited for the guardianship of a state.”
> book 2, section 375d: ... We failed to note that there are after all
> such natures as we thought impossible, endowed with these opposite
> qualities.
> book 3, section 409a: ... the body, but it must have been
> inexperienced in evil natures and uncontaminated by them
> while young,
> if it is
> book 3, section 410e: ... himself. is that the guardians should
> possess both natures.” “It is.” “And must they not
> book 4, section 423d: ... too must be sent to the task for
> which their
> natures were fitted, one man to one work, in order
> book 4, section 424a: ... a sound nurture and education if kept up
> creates good natures in the state, and sound natures in turn
> receiving
> an education of this sort develop
> book 5, section 453c: ... the women ought to do the same
> thing, though
> their natures are so far apart?’ Can you surprise me with
> book 5, section 453e: ... can find a way out. We did agree that
> different natures should have differing pursuits and that the nature
> of ... women differ. And yet now we affirm that these differing
> natures should have the same pursuits. That is the indictment.
> book 5, section 454b: ... contentiousness.” “In what way?” “The
> principle that natures not the same ought not to share in the ... to
> define it when we assigned different pursuits to different
> natures and
> the same to the same.” “No, we
> book 5, section 454c: ... ,” I said, “we might ask ourselves
> whether the natures of bald For this humorously trivial illustration
> cf. Mill,
> book 5, section 454d: ... that a man physician and a man carpenter
> have different natures?” “Certainly, I suppose.” “Similarly,
> then,” said
> book 5, section 456b: ... ” “By all means.” “And to the same
> natures must we not assign the same pursuits?” “The
> book 5, section 473d: ... power and philosophic intelligence, while
> the motley horde of the natures who at present pursue either apart
> from the other
> book 6, section 485c: ... must not have this further quality
> in their
> natures.” “What quality?” “The spirit of truthfulness,
> reluctance
> book 6, section 497c: ... in truth divine and all the others
> human in
> their natures and practices. Obviously then you are next, going to
> book 6, section 499c: ... ?” “It is.” “If, then, the best
> philosophical natures have ever been constrained to take charge of the
> book 7, section 519c: ... founders, then,” said I, “to compel the
> best natures to attain the knowledge which we pronounced the greatest,
> book 7, section 526c: ... must use it in the education of the best
> endowed natures.” “I agree,” he said. “Assuming this
> book 7, section 535a: ... you must suppose that we have to choose
> those same natures. The most stable, the most brave and enterprising
> Intellectually
> book 7, section 536a: ... for any of these purposes the crippled and
> base-born natures, as their friends or rulers.” “It is so
> book 7, section 539d: ... take part in such discussions must have
> orderly and stable natures, instead of the present practice For the
> idiom μὴ
> book 8, section 548e: ... I, “in that, but I do not think their
> natures are alike in the following respects.” “In what
> book 8, section 557b: ... civilization to confirm Plato's judgement
> concerning the variety of natures to be found in the democratic
> state.” De
> book 8, section 564e: ... When all are pursuing wealth the most
> orderly and thrifty natures for the most part become the richest.”
> “It
> book 9, section 582b: ... experiencing the sweetness of the pleasure
> of learning the true natures of things, The force of οὐ extends
> through
> book 9, section 588c: ... sort of an image?” he said. “One of those
> natures that the ancient fables tell of,” said I,
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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