wow .. thats impressive? why? (are you on tv)

2008/4/30, b_ronta <b_ronta@...>:
>
>   gudluck benj!
>
> --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Benj Espina"
> <swingonthespiral@...> wrote:
> >
> > Off topic!
> >
> > I'm going to be on TV tomorrow. :)
> > Media In Focus with Cheche Lazaro
> > 6-7PM
> >
> > Benj
> > http://atheista.net
> >
>
>
>



--
apprenons francais [rmacapobre-french.blogspot.com].
apprenons max [rmacapobre.blogspot.com].


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nga pala ang title ng episode is:

"How The Rightheous Christians Do Battle With The Immorality of
Atheism in The Blogosphere"

...just in case Benj doesn't already know. :)

T

--- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "Romeo Macapobre"
<romeo.macapobre@...> wrote:
>
> wow .. thats impressive? why? (are you on tv)
>
> 2008/4/30, b_ronta <b_ronta@...>:
> >
> >   gudluck benj!
> >
> > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
<pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Benj Espina"
> > <swingonthespiral@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Off topic!
> > >
> > > I'm going to be on TV tomorrow. :)
> > > Media In Focus with Cheche Lazaro
> > > 6-7PM
> > >
> > > Benj
> > > http://atheista.net
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> apprenons francais [rmacapobre-french.blogspot.com].
> apprenons max [rmacapobre.blogspot.com].
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

go! go! gooo!!!

b_ronta <b_ronta@...> wrote:          gudluck benj!

--- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "Benj Espina"
<swingonthespiral@...> wrote:
>
> Off topic!
>
> I'm going to be on TV tomorrow. :)
> Media In Focus with Cheche Lazaro
> 6-7PM
>
> Benj
> http://atheista.net
>






---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ang bias naman ng title.  Immorality of Atheism amf.  Kung Immorality of
Christianity kaya.  The title sounds offensive.

How was the interview?

tony <paetenian@...> wrote:
  Nga pala ang title ng episode is:

  "How The Rightheous Christians Do Battle With The Immorality of
  Atheism in The Blogosphere"

  ...just in case Benj doesn't already know. :)

  T

  --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "Romeo Macapobre"
  <romeo.macapobre@...> wrote:
  >
  > wow .. thats impressive? why? (are you on tv)
  >
  > 2008/4/30, b_ronta <b_ronta@...>:
  > >
  > >   gudluck benj!
  > >
  > > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
  <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>,
  > > "Benj Espina"
  > > <swingonthespiral@> wrote:
  > > >
  > > > Off topic!
  > > >
  > > > I'm going to be on TV tomorrow. :)
  > > > Media In Focus with Cheche Lazaro
  > > > 6-7PM
  > > >
  > > > Benj
  > > > http://atheista.net
  > > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  >
  >
  >
  > --
  > apprenons francais [rmacapobre-french.blogspot.com].
  > apprenons max [rmacapobre.blogspot.com].
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >






---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Relax :-D Tony was just kidding about the title... I hope.


On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:24 AM, David Uy <judasnotpay2003@...> wrote:

>   Ang bias naman ng title. Immorality of Atheism amf. Kung Immorality of
> Christianity kaya. The title sounds offensive.
>
> How was the interview?
>
>
> tony <paetenian@... <paetenian%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
> Nga pala ang title ng episode is:
>
> "How The Rightheous Christians Do Battle With The Immorality of
> Atheism in The Blogosphere"
>
> ...just in case Benj doesn't already know. :)
>
> T
>
> --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Romeo Macapobre"
> <romeo.macapobre@...> wrote:
> >
> > wow .. thats impressive? why? (are you on tv)
> >
> > 2008/4/30, b_ronta <b_ronta@...>:
> > >
> > > gudluck benj!
> > >
> > > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com<pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>
> <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > "Benj Espina"
> > > <swingonthespiral@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Off topic!
> > > >
> > > > I'm going to be on TV tomorrow. :)
> > > > Media In Focus with Cheche Lazaro
> > > > 6-7PM
> > > >
> > > > Benj
> > > > http://atheista.net
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > apprenons francais [rmacapobre-french.blogspot.com].
> > apprenons max [rmacapobre.blogspot.com].
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
> now.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joyfulchicken wrote:
>
> Relax :-D Tony was just kidding about the title... I hope.

Of course I was. Benj didn't mention what was it all about so I was
trying to help. :)

Hey Banj, pagdating mo don, live ba yung program? Harap ka agad sa
kamera at isigaw mo kaagad na binabati mo kaming lahat na nandito sa
PA! LOLs. Yun lang kahit i-cut ka nila, at least nabati mo kami. LOLs.

O kaya ibulong mo kay Che na baka gusto niya mag-devote ng isang
episode para sa freethought/atheism/irreligiousity. Gusto rin namin
mabigyan ng 15 minutes of fame to talk about how religious bullshit is
the root of poverty of the mahal kong Pinas.

cheers!
T



>
>
> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:24 AM, David Uy <judasnotpay2003@...> wrote:
>
> >   Ang bias naman ng title. Immorality of Atheism amf. Kung
Immorality of
> > Christianity kaya. The title sounds offensive.
> >
> > How was the interview?
> >
> >
> > tony <paetenian@... <paetenian%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
> > Nga pala ang title ng episode is:
> >
> > "How The Rightheous Christians Do Battle With The Immorality of
> > Atheism in The Blogosphere"
> >
> > ...just in case Benj doesn't already know. :)
> >
> > T
> >
> > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
<pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "Romeo Macapobre"
> > <romeo.macapobre@> wrote:
> > >
> > > wow .. thats impressive? why? (are you on tv)
> > >
> > > 2008/4/30, b_ronta <b_ronta@>:
> > > >
> > > > gudluck benj!
> > > >
> > > > --- In
pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com<pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > "Benj Espina"
> > > > <swingonthespiral@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Off topic!
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm going to be on TV tomorrow. :)
> > > > > Media In Focus with Cheche Lazaro
> > > > > 6-7PM
> > > > >
> > > > > Benj
> > > > > http://atheista.net
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > apprenons francais [rmacapobre-french.blogspot.com].
> > > apprenons max [rmacapobre.blogspot.com].
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
Try it
> > now.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Finally, mapapa mainstream na rin ang pinoy atheism.
No proselytizing pls--for the theists!

--- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "tony" <paetenian@...> wrote:
>
> joyfulchicken wrote:
> >
> > Relax :-D Tony was just kidding about the title... I hope.
>
> Of course I was. Benj didn't mention what was it all about so I was
> trying to help. :)
>
> Hey Banj, pagdating mo don, live ba yung program? Harap ka agad sa
> kamera at isigaw mo kaagad na binabati mo kaming lahat na nandito
sa
> PA! LOLs. Yun lang kahit i-cut ka nila, at least nabati mo kami.
LOLs.
>
> O kaya ibulong mo kay Che na baka gusto niya mag-devote ng isang
> episode para sa freethought/atheism/irreligiousity. Gusto rin namin
> mabigyan ng 15 minutes of fame to talk about how religious
bullshit is
> the root of poverty of the mahal kong Pinas.
>
> cheers!
> T
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:24 AM, David Uy <judasnotpay2003@>
wrote:
> >
> > >   Ang bias naman ng title. Immorality of Atheism amf. Kung
> Immorality of
> > > Christianity kaya. The title sounds offensive.
> > >
> > > How was the interview?
> > >
> > >
> > > tony <paetenian@ <paetenian%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
> > > Nga pala ang title ng episode is:
> > >
> > > "How The Rightheous Christians Do Battle With The Immorality of
> > > Atheism in The Blogosphere"
> > >
> > > ...just in case Benj doesn't already know. :)
> > >
> > > T
> > >
> > > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
> <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > "Romeo Macapobre"
> > > <romeo.macapobre@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > wow .. thats impressive? why? (are you on tv)
> > > >
> > > > 2008/4/30, b_ronta <b_ronta@>:
> > > > >
> > > > > gudluck benj!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In
> pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com<pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > > "Benj Espina"
> > > > > <swingonthespiral@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Off topic!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm going to be on TV tomorrow. :)
> > > > > > Media In Focus with Cheche Lazaro
> > > > > > 6-7PM
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Benj
> > > > > > http://atheista.net
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > apprenons francais [rmacapobre-french.blogspot.com].
> > > > apprenons max [rmacapobre.blogspot.com].
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
Mobile.
> Try it
> > > now.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

LECHE KA TONY!

:p

The show had nothing to do with atheism.
Intellectual property rights ang topic


--- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "b_ronta" <b_ronta@...> wrote:
>
> Finally, mapapa mainstream na rin ang pinoy atheism.
> No proselytizing pls--for the theists!
>
> --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "tony" <paetenian@> wrote:
> >
> > joyfulchicken wrote:
> > >
> > > Relax :-D Tony was just kidding about the title... I hope.
> >
> > Of course I was. Benj didn't mention what was it all about so I was
> > trying to help. :)
> >
> > Hey Banj, pagdating mo don, live ba yung program? Harap ka agad sa
> > kamera at isigaw mo kaagad na binabati mo kaming lahat na nandito
> sa
> > PA! LOLs. Yun lang kahit i-cut ka nila, at least nabati mo kami.
> LOLs.
> >
> > O kaya ibulong mo kay Che na baka gusto niya mag-devote ng isang
> > episode para sa freethought/atheism/irreligiousity. Gusto rin namin
> > mabigyan ng 15 minutes of fame to talk about how religious
> bullshit is
> > the root of poverty of the mahal kong Pinas.
> >
> > cheers!
> > T
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:24 AM, David Uy <judasnotpay2003@>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > >   Ang bias naman ng title. Immorality of Atheism amf. Kung
> > Immorality of
> > > > Christianity kaya. The title sounds offensive.
> > > >
> > > > How was the interview?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > tony <paetenian@ <paetenian%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
> > > > Nga pala ang title ng episode is:
> > > >
> > > > "How The Rightheous Christians Do Battle With The Immorality of
> > > > Atheism in The Blogosphere"
> > > >
> > > > ...just in case Benj doesn't already know. :)
> > > >
> > > > T
> > > >
> > > > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
> > <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > "Romeo Macapobre"
> > > > <romeo.macapobre@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > wow .. thats impressive? why? (are you on tv)
> > > > >
> > > > > 2008/4/30, b_ronta <b_ronta@>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > gudluck benj!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In
> > pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com<pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > > > "Benj Espina"
> > > > > > <swingonthespiral@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Off topic!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm going to be on TV tomorrow. :)
> > > > > > > Media In Focus with Cheche Lazaro
> > > > > > > 6-7PM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Benj
> > > > > > > http://atheista.net
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > apprenons francais [rmacapobre-french.blogspot.com].
> > > > > apprenons max [rmacapobre.blogspot.com].
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
> Mobile.
> > Try it
> > > > now.
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

Hello,

Let me cut to the chase and go to the meat of why I joined this group.
I want to hear stories, tips and advice on atheist parents raising a
child here in the Philippines. We know how strong religious influence
is in our society and it can be difficult.

My 6 y.o. son goes to a semi-Catholic school. There are very few
religious activities but religious chatter still creeps in. I try not
to mention religion in our household. My basic premise is not to raise
an atheist, but a freethinker. I want him to question a lot and we can
find answer together. But once in a while I get, "Papa, if God made
man, who made God?" or "Was Jesus God or man?" It's hard to answer
these questions to a 6 yo without going through a lot of explanations
about religious delusions, etc. I'm still trying to find a good way to
answer these 'religious' questions.

I come from a religious family: Muslim father (who is now a Hajji) and
Catholic mother. My father-in-law is a former seminarian. So my son is
exposed to both Islam and Christianity. But there is very little
religious talk in my home. And my parents and in-laws do not intrude
much about our (non-existent) 'religious activities'.

I've been reading a lot about this topic (atheist parenting) online,
but it's not easily adoptable in our setting because most articles and
discussions are US-based. I'd rather hear from parents here in the
Philippines.

Since we all value evidence, I'd like responses to be qualified so
please say if you are an atheist parent or a child raised by atheist
parents. If you are neither, well, you can still contribute but I
generally don't place high value on parenting advice given by
non-parents.

Hope to hear from the group soon!

Thanks!

Mike

--- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "Benj Espina"
<swingonthespiral@...> wrote:
>
> LECHE KA TONY!
>
> :p
>
> The show had nothing to do with atheism.
> Intellectual property rights ang topic
>

O kaya, ipasa mo sa akin email address ni Che Lazaro. I will send her
an email myself. :)

cheers!
T

toinks. naisahan ako dun a. *smites tony with a stupid book called bible*
well done heathen. =D

tony <paetenian@...> wrote:                             joyfulchicken
wrote:
  >
  > Relax :-D Tony was just kidding about the title... I hope.

  Of course I was. Benj didn't mention what was it all about so I was
  trying to help. :)

  Hey Banj, pagdating mo don, live ba yung program? Harap ka agad sa
  kamera at isigaw mo kaagad na binabati mo kaming lahat na nandito sa
  PA! LOLs. Yun lang kahit i-cut ka nila, at least nabati mo kami. LOLs.

  O kaya ibulong mo kay Che na baka gusto niya mag-devote ng isang
  episode para sa freethought/atheism/irreligiousity. Gusto rin namin
  mabigyan ng 15 minutes of fame to talk about how religious bullshit is
  the root of poverty of the mahal kong Pinas.

  cheers!
  T

  >
  >
  > On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 12:24 AM, David Uy <judasnotpay2003@...> wrote:
  >
  > >   Ang bias naman ng title. Immorality of Atheism amf. Kung
  Immorality of
  > > Christianity kaya. The title sounds offensive.
  > >
  > > How was the interview?
  > >
  > >
  > > tony <paetenian@... <paetenian%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
  > > Nga pala ang title ng episode is:
  > >
  > > "How The Rightheous Christians Do Battle With The Immorality of
  > > Atheism in The Blogosphere"
  > >
  > > ...just in case Benj doesn't already know. :)
  > >
  > > T
  > >
  > > --- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
  <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>,
  > > "Romeo Macapobre"
  > > <romeo.macapobre@> wrote:
  > > >
  > > > wow .. thats impressive? why? (are you on tv)
  > > >
  > > > 2008/4/30, b_ronta <b_ronta@>:
  > > > >
  > > > > gudluck benj!
  > > > >
  > > > > --- In
  pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com<pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>
  > > <pinoy_atheists%40yahoogroups.com>,
  > > > > "Benj Espina"
  > > > > <swingonthespiral@> wrote:
  > > > > >
  > > > > > Off topic!
  > > > > >
  > > > > > I'm going to be on TV tomorrow. :)
  > > > > > Media In Focus with Cheche Lazaro
  > > > > > 6-7PM
  > > > > >
  > > > > > Benj
  > > > > > http://atheista.net
  > > > > >
  > > > >
  > > > >
  > > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > --
  > > > apprenons francais [rmacapobre-french.blogspot.com].
  > > > apprenons max [rmacapobre.blogspot.com].
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > ---------------------------------
  > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
  Try it
  > > now.
  > >
  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > >
  > >
  > >
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >






---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael Muin, MD wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Let me cut to the chase and go to the meat of why I joined this group.
> I want to hear stories, tips and advice on atheist parents raising a
> child here in the Philippines. We know how strong religious influence
> is in our society and it can be difficult.

Welcome to the group. Yes, this is the right place to ask that
question though karamihan yata ng members dito e kabataang tulad ko.
Hehe.


> But once in a while I get, "Papa, if God made
> man, who made God?" or "Was Jesus God or man?"

LOLs. There goes your young seeker.


> It's hard to answer
> these questions to a 6 yo without going through a lot of explanations
> about religious delusions, etc. I'm still trying to find a good way to
> answer these 'religious' questions.

You have to be very careful. Once my daughter almost cried when she
asked me about growing bigger, older, then dying. It was too much for
her.


> I come from a religious family: Muslim father (who is now a Hajji) and
> Catholic mother. My father-in-law is a former seminarian. So my son is
> exposed to both Islam and Christianity. But there is very little
> religious talk in my home.

This combination can actually do good to your son lalo na walang
gaanong religion na pinag-uusapan. I can tell your parents are
open-minded. This environment arguably helped you become a skeptic.
Just my guess.


I'm only 2/3 qualified. I have a 5.5 year old daughter attending
Catholic kindergarten school but we are not in Pinas. She does come
home with similar questions, e.g., why do they have to offer flowers
to a statue of Mary, etc.

The good thing here is that the environment itself is not religious
unlike Pinas na ipinagmamalaki ng ating mga kababayan ang pagiging
relihiyoso nila.

Also, kids look up to good parents as role models. When they grow up,
they will figure out daddy is an atheist and maybe see for themselves
why or they may see mommy is a believer. Either way is open to them
but the fact that there is DIFFERENCE between the two of us is enough
to raise their awareness about different beliefs and how non-belief
can be possible.

cheers!
T

Dear Tony,

   A good way to begin teaching children is as suggested by Richard Dawkins in
the following: -

   Good And Bad Reasons For Believing
Richard Dawkins   Dear Juliet,         Now that you are ten, I want to write to
you about something that is important to me. Have you ever wondered how we know
the things that we know? How do we know, for instance, that the stars, which
look like tiny pinpricks in the sky, are really huge balls of fire like the sun
and are very far away? And how do we know that Earth is a smaller ball whirling
round one of those stars, the sun?   The answer to these questions is
"evidence." Sometimes evidence means actually seeing ( or hearing, feeling,
smelling..... ) that something is true. Astronauts have travelled far enough
from earth to see with their own eyes that it is round. Sometimes our eyes need
help. The "evening star" looks like a bright twinkle in the sky, but with a
telescope, you can see that it is a beautiful ball - the planet we call Venus.
Something that you learn by direct seeing ( or hearing or feeling..... ) is
called an observation.         Often, evidence isn't just
  an observation on its own, but observation always lies at the back of it. If
there's been a murder, often nobody (except the murderer and the victim!)
actually observed it. But detectives can gather together lots or other
observations which may all point toward a particular suspect. If a person's
fingerprints match those found on a dagger, this is evidence that he touched it.
It doesn't prove that he did the murder, but it can help when it's joined up
with lots of other evidence. Sometimes a detective can think about a whole lot
of observations and suddenly realise that they fall into place and make sense if
so-and-so did the murder.         Scientists - the specialists in discovering
what is true about the world and the universe - often work like detectives. They
make a guess ( called a hypothesis ) about what might be true. They then say to
themselves: If that were really true, we ought to see so-and-so. This is called
a prediction. For example, if the world is really
  round, we can predict that a traveller, going on and on in the same direction,
should eventually find himself back where he started.When a doctor says that you
have the measles, he doesn't take one look at you and see measles. His first
look gives him a hypothesis that you may have measles. Then he says to himself:
If she has measles I ought to see...... Then he runs through the list of
predictions and tests them with his eyes ( have you got spots? ); hands ( is
your forehead hot? ); and ears ( does your chest wheeze in a measly way? ). Only
then does he make his decision and say, " I diagnose that the child has measles.
" Sometimes doctors need to do other tests like blood tests or X-Rays, which
help their eyes, hands, and ears to make observations.         The way
scientists use evidence to learn about the world is much cleverer and more
complicated than I can say in a short letter. But now I want to move on from
evidence, which is a good reason for believing something ,
  and warn you against three bad reasons for believing anything. They are called
"tradition," "authority," and "revelation."         First, tradition. A few
months ago, I went on television to have a discussion with about fifty children.
These children were invited because they had been brought up in lots of
different religions. Some had been brought up as Christians, others as Jews,
Muslims, Hindus, or Sikhs. The man with the microphone went from child to child,
asking them what they believed. What they said shows up exactly what I mean by
"tradition." Their beliefs turned out to have no connection with evidence. They
just trotted out the beliefs of their parents and grandparents which, in turn,
were not based upon evidence either. They said things like: "We Hindus believe
so and so"; "We Muslims believe such and such"; "We Christians believe something
else."         Of course, since they all believed different things, they
couldn't all be right. The man with the microphone
  seemed to think this quite right and proper, and he didn't even try to get them
to argue out their differences with each other. But that isn't the point I want
to make for the moment. I simply want to ask where their beliefs come from. They
came from tradition. Tradition means beliefs handed down from grandparent to
parent to child, and so on. Or from books handed down through the centuries.
Traditional beliefs often start from almost nothing; perhaps somebody just makes
them up originally, like the stories about Thor and Zeus. But after they've been
handed down over some centuries, the mere fact that they are so old makes them
seem special. People believe things simply because people have believed the same
thing over the centuries. That's tradition.         The trouble with tradition
is that, no matter how long ago a story was made up, it is still exactly as true
or untrue as the original story was. If you make up a story that isn't true,
handing it down over a number of
  centuries doesn't make it any truer!         Most people in England have been
baptised into the Church of England, but this is only one of the branches of the
Christian religion. There are other branches such as Russian Orthodox, the Roman
Catholic, and the Methodist churches. They all believe different things. The
Jewish religion and the Muslim religion are a bit more different still; and
there are different kinds of Jews and of Muslims. People who believe even
slightly different things from each other go to war over their disagreements. So
you might think that they must have some pretty good reasons - evidence - for
believing what they believe. But actually, their different beliefs are entirely
due to different traditions.         Let's talk about one particular tradition.
Roman Catholics believe that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was so special that she
didn't die but was lifted bodily in to Heaven. Other Christian traditions
disagree, saying that Mary did die like anybody
  else. These other religions don't talk about much and, unlike Roman Catholics,
they don't call her the "Queen of Heaven." The tradition that Mary's body was
lifted into Heaven is not an old one. The bible says nothing on how she died; in
fact, the poor woman is scarcely mentioned in the Bible at all. The belief that
her body was lifted into Heaven wasn't invented until about six centuries after
Jesus' time. At first, it was just made up, in the same way as any story like
"Snow White" was made up. But, over the centuries, it grew into a tradition and
people started to take it seriously simply because the story had been handed
down over so many generations. The older the tradition became, the more people
took it seriously. It finally was written down as and official Roman Catholic
belief only very recently, in 1950, when I was the age you are now. But the
story was no more true in 1950 than it was when it was first invented six
hundred years after Mary's death.         I'll
  come back to tradition at the end of my letter, and look at it in another way.
But first, I must deal with the two other bad reasons for believing in anything:
authority and revelation.         Authority, as a reason for believing
something, means believing in it because you are told to believe it by somebody
important. In the Roman Catholic Church, the pope is the most important person,
and people believe he must be right just because he is the pope. In one branch
of the Muslim religion, the important people are the old men with beards called
ayatollahs. Lots of Muslims in this country are prepared to commit murder,
purely because the ayatollahs in a faraway country tell them to.         When I
say that it was only in 1950 that Roman Catholics were finally told that they
had to believe that Mary's body shot off to Heaven, what I mean is that in 1950,
the pope told people that they had to believe it. That was it. The pope said it
was true, so it had to be true! Now,
  probably some of the things that that pope said in his life were true and some
were not true. There is no good reason why, just because he was the pope, you
should believe everything he said any more than you believe everything that
other people say. The present pope ( 1995 ) has ordered his followers not to
limit the number of babies they have. If people follow this authority as
slavishly as he would wish, the results could be terrible famines, diseases, and
wars, caused by overcrowding.         Of course, even in science, sometimes we
haven't seen the evidence ourselves and we have to take somebody else's word for
it. I haven't, with my own eyes, seen the evidence that light travels at a speed
of 186,000 miles per second. Instead, I believe books that tell me the speed of
light. This looks like "authority." But actually, it is much better than
authority, because the people who wrote the books have seen the evidence and
anyone is free to look carefully at the evidence
  whenever they want. That is very comforting. But not even the priests claim
that there is any evidence for their story about Mary's body zooming off to
Heaven.         The third kind of bad reason for believing anything is called
"revelation." If you had asked the pope in 1950 how he knew that Mary's body
disappeared into Heaven, he would probably have said that it had been "revealed"
to him. He shut himself in his room and prayed for guidance. He thought and
thought, all by himself, and he became more and more sure inside himself. When
religious people just have a feeling inside themselves that something must be
true, even though there is no evidence that it is true, they call their feeling
"revelation." It isn't only popes who claim to have revelations. Lots of
religious people do. It is one of their main reasons for believing the things
that they do believe. But is it a good reason?         Suppose I told you that
your dog was dead. You'd be very upset, and you'd
  probably say, "Are you sure? How do you know? How did it happen?" Now suppose I
answered: "I don't actually know that Pepe is dead. I have no evidence. I just
have a funny feeling deep inside me that he is dead." You'd be pretty cross with
me for scaring you, because you'd know that an inside "feeling" on its own is
not a good reason for believing that a whippet is dead. You need evidence. We
all have inside feelings from time to time, sometimes they turn out to be right
and sometimes they don't. Anyway, different people have opposite feelings, so
how are we to decide whose feeling is right? The only way to be sure that a dog
is dead is to see him dead, or hear that his heart has stopped; or be told by
somebody who has seen or heard some real evidence that he is dead.        
People sometimes say that you must believe in feelings deep inside, otherwise,
you' d never be confident of things like "My wife loves me." But this is a bad
argument. There can be plenty of evidence
  that somebody loves you. All through the day when you are with somebody who
loves you, you see and hear lots of little titbits of evidence, and they all add
up. It isn't a purely inside feeling, like the feeling that priests call
revelation. There are outside things to back up the inside feeling: looks in the
eye, tender notes in the voice, little favors and kindnesses; this is all real
evidence.         Sometimes people have a strong inside feeling that somebody
loves them when it is not based upon any evidence, and then they are likely to
be completely wrong. There are people with a strong inside feeling that a famous
film star loves them, when really the film star hasn't even met them. People
like that are ill in their minds. Inside feelings must be backed up by evidence,
otherwise you just can't trust them.         Inside feelings are valuable in
science, too, but only for giving you ideas that you later test by looking for
evidence. A scientist can have a "hunch'"
  about an idea that just "feels" right. In itself, this is not a good reason for
believing something. But it can be a good reason for spending some time doing a
particular experiment, or looking in a particular way for evidence. Scientists
use inside feelings all the time to get ideas. But they are not worth anything
until they are supported by evidence.         I promised that I'd come back to
tradition, and look at it in another way. I want to try to explain why tradition
is so important to us. All animals are built (by the process called evolution)
to survive in the normal place in which their kind live. Lions are built to be
good at surviving on the plains of Africa. Crayfish to be good at surviving in
fresh, water, while lobsters are built to be good at surviving in the salt sea.
People are animals, too, and we are built to be good at surviving in a world
full of ..... other people. Most of us don't hunt for our own food like lions or
lobsters; we buy it from other
  people who have bought it from yet other people. We ''swim'' through a "sea of
people." Just as a fish needs gills to survive in water, people need brains that
make them able to deal with other people. Just as the sea is full of salt water,
the sea of people is full of difficult things to learn. Like language.        
You speak English, but your friend Ann-Kathrin speaks German. You each speak the
language that fits you to '`swim about" in your own separate "people sea."
Language is passed down by tradition. There is no other way . In England, Pepe
is a dog. In Germany he is ein Hund. Neither of these words is more correct, or
more true than the other. Both are simply handed down. In order to be good at
"swimming about in their people sea," children have to learn the language of
their own country, and lots of other things about their own people; and this
means that they have to absorb, like blotting paper, an enormous amount of
traditional information. (Remember that
  traditional information just means things that are handed down from
grandparents to parents to children.) The child's brain has to be a sucker for
traditional information. And the child can't be expected to sort out good and
useful traditional information, like the words of a language, from bad or silly
traditional information, like believing in witches and devils and ever-living
virgins.   It's a pity, but it can't help being the case, that because children
have to be suckers for traditional information, they are likely to believe
anything the grown-ups tell them, whether true or false, right or wrong. Lots of
what the grown-ups tell them is true and based on evidence, or at least
sensible. But if some of it is false, silly, or even wicked, there is nothing to
stop the children believing that, too. Now, when the children grow up, what do
they do? Well, of course, they tell it to the next generation of children. So,
once something gets itself strongly believed - even if it
  is completely untrue and there never was any reason to believe it in the first
place - it can go on forever.         Could this be what has happened with
religions ? Belief that there is a god or gods, belief in Heaven, belief that
Mary never died, belief that Jesus never had a human father, belief that prayers
are answered, belief that wine turns into blood - not one of these beliefs is
backed up by any good evidence. Yet millions of people believe them. Perhaps
this because they were told to believe them when they were told to believe them
when they were young enough to believe anything.         Millions of other
people believe quite different things, because they were told different things
when they were children. Muslim children are told different things from
Christian children, and both grow up utterly convinced that they are right and
the others are wrong. Even within Christians, Roman Catholics believe different
things from Church of England people or Episcopalians,
  Shakers or Quakers , Mormons or Holy Rollers, and are all utterly covinced that
they are right and the others are wrong. They believe different things for
exactly the same kind of reason as you speak English and Ann-Kathrin speaks
German. Both languages are, in their own country, the right language to speak.
But it can't be true that different religions are right in their own countries,
because different religions claim that opposite things are true. Mary can't be
alive in Catholic Southern Ireland but dead in Protestant Northern Ireland.
What can we do about all this ? It is not easy for you to do anything, because
you are only ten. But you could try this. Next time somebody tells you something
that sounds important, think to yourself: "Is this the kind of thing that people
probably know because of evidence? Or is it the kind of thing that people only
believe because of tradition, authority, or revelation?" And, next time somebody
tells you that something is true,
  why not say to them: "What kind of evidence is there for that?" And if they
can't give you a good answer, I hope you'll think very carefully before you
believe a word they say.   Your loving      Daddy         RICHARD DAWKINS is an
evolutionary biologist; reader in the Department of Zoology at Oxford
University; fellow of New College. He began his research career in the 1960s as
a research student with Nobel Prize-winning ethologist Nico Tinbergen, and ever
since then, his work has largely been concerned with the evolution of behavior.
Since 1976, when his first book, The Selfish Gene, encapsulated both the
substance and the spirit of what is now called the sociobiological revolution,
he has become widely known, both for the originality of his ideas and for the
clarity and elegance with which he expounds them. A subsequent book, The
Extended Phenotype, and a number of television programs, have extended the
notion of the gene as the unit of selection, and have applied it to
  biological examples as various as the relationship between hosts and parasites
and the evolution of cooperation. His following book, The Blind Watchmaker, is
widely read, widely quoted, and one of the truly influential intellectual works
of our time. He is also author of the recently published River Out of Eden

tony <paetenian@...> wrote:
           Michael Muin, MD wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Let me cut to the chase and go to the meat of why I joined this group.
> I want to hear stories, tips and advice on atheist parents raising a
> child here in the Philippines. We know how strong religious influence
> is in our society and it can be difficult.

Welcome to the group. Yes, this is the right place to ask that
question though karamihan yata ng members dito e kabataang tulad ko.
Hehe.

> But once in a while I get, "Papa, if God made
> man, who made God?" or "Was Jesus God or man?"

LOLs. There goes your young seeker.

> It's hard to answer
> these questions to a 6 yo without going through a lot of explanations
> about religious delusions, etc. I'm still trying to find a good way to
> answer these 'religious' questions.

You have to be very careful. Once my daughter almost cried when she
asked me about growing bigger, older, then dying. It was too much for
her.

> I come from a religious family: Muslim father (who is now a Hajji) and
> Catholic mother. My father-in-law is a former seminarian. So my son is
> exposed to both Islam and Christianity. But there is very little
> religious talk in my home.

This combination can actually do good to your son lalo na walang
gaanong religion na pinag-uusapan. I can tell your parents are
open-minded. This environment arguably helped you become a skeptic.
Just my guess.

I'm only 2/3 qualified. I have a 5.5 year old daughter attending
Catholic kindergarten school but we are not in Pinas. She does come
home with similar questions, e.g., why do they have to offer flowers
to a statue of Mary, etc.

The good thing here is that the environment itself is not religious
unlike Pinas na ipinagmamalaki ng ating mga kababayan ang pagiging
relihiyoso nila.

Also, kids look up to good parents as role models. When they grow up,
they will figure out daddy is an atheist and maybe see for themselves
why or they may see mommy is a believer. Either way is open to them
but the fact that there is DIFFERENCE between the two of us is enough
to raise their awareness about different beliefs and how non-belief
can be possible.

cheers!
T






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replays  on Saturday - 6AM and 5 PM

If there is a sure way of raising a child, then that discoverer should be a
super billionaire by this time.

   Unless a child was born with it a manual titled "How to raise this kid" then
how-to's depend so much on the background of the parents and despite that, there
are no guarantees.

   Religiosity in the Philippines is deep-rooted. I remember reading an article
by JParaiso that says it succintly - People in the Philippines truly believe
that they owe their life in God and that it is some kind of a divine pawnshop,
where God can claim it back when He needs it.

   I do not force my worldview on my 3 kids, but i make sure that any religious
talk within our house is dealt in a manner that its 'other side' is exposed.

"Michael Muin, MD" <mikemuin@...> wrote:
           Hello,

Let me cut to the chase and go to the meat of why I joined this group.
I want to hear stories, tips and advice on atheist parents raising a
child here in the Philippines. We know how strong religious influence
is in our society and it can be difficult.

My 6 y.o. son goes to a semi-Catholic school. There are very few
religious activities but religious chatter still creeps in. I try not
to mention religion in our household. My basic premise is not to raise
an atheist, but a freethinker. I want him to question a lot and we can
find answer together. But once in a while I get, "Papa, if God made
man, who made God?" or "Was Jesus God or man?" It's hard to answer
these questions to a 6 yo without going through a lot of explanations
about religious delusions, etc. I'm still trying to find a good way to
answer these 'religious' questions.

I come from a religious family: Muslim father (who is now a Hajji) and
Catholic mother. My father-in-law is a former seminarian. So my son is
exposed to both Islam and Christianity. But there is very little
religious talk in my home. And my parents and in-laws do not intrude
much about our (non-existent) 'religious activities'.

I've been reading a lot about this topic (atheist parenting) online,
but it's not easily adoptable in our setting because most articles and
discussions are US-based. I'd rather hear from parents here in the
Philippines.

Since we all value evidence, I'd like responses to be qualified so
please say if you are an atheist parent or a child raised by atheist
parents. If you are neither, well, you can still contribute but I
generally don't place high value on parenting advice given by
non-parents.

Hope to hear from the group soon!

Thanks!

Mike





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In my opinion, Tony brought a very important issue - that is bringing awareness
and thus to raise question.

   My children are very aware of my irreligiosity and i often argue with them
that God could not possibly exist.

   When asked by others what his religion is, one of my son would reply, "teka,
itatanong ko sa tatay ko kung ano ang tawag sa religion namin"

   to which i will reply, "we have none, pero sama tayo sa agos"

   its not a decisive answer but it gives an impression that one has the option
not to take religion seriously.


"Michael Muin, MD" <mikemuin@...> wrote:
           Hello,

Let me cut to the chase and go to the meat of why I joined this group.
I want to hear stories, tips and advice on atheist parents raising a
child here in the Philippines. We know how strong religious influence
is in our society and it can be difficult.

My 6 y.o. son goes to a semi-Catholic school. There are very few
religious activities but religious chatter still creeps in. I try not
to mention religion in our household. My basic premise is not to raise
an atheist, but a freethinker. I want him to question a lot and we can
find answer together. But once in a while I get, "Papa, if God made
man, who made God?" or "Was Jesus God or man?" It's hard to answer
these questions to a 6 yo without going through a lot of explanations
about religious delusions, etc. I'm still trying to find a good way to
answer these 'religious' questions.

I come from a religious family: Muslim father (who is now a Hajji) and
Catholic mother. My father-in-law is a former seminarian. So my son is
exposed to both Islam and Christianity. But there is very little
religious talk in my home. And my parents and in-laws do not intrude
much about our (non-existent) 'religious activities'.

I've been reading a lot about this topic (atheist parenting) online,
but it's not easily adoptable in our setting because most articles and
discussions are US-based. I'd rather hear from parents here in the
Philippines.

Since we all value evidence, I'd like responses to be qualified so
please say if you are an atheist parent or a child raised by atheist
parents. If you are neither, well, you can still contribute but I
generally don't place high value on parenting advice given by
non-parents.

Hope to hear from the group soon!

Thanks!

Mike





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi there! Personally, I expose my daughter to a lot of science shows (downloaded
kid's shows such as "Beakman's World" and "Bill Nye the Science Guy"). It helped
that she is very interested in science, and loves to watch Animal Planet :)

I encourage her to always ask questions, and resist the temptation to give the
all encompassing "because that's how it is" answer. As Carl Sagan once said, the
best answer to any child's question is "That's a good question! Why don't we go
find out?"

There's also very little religious talk in my household, although my wife is
Christian (well not so much anymore, I think I'm getting to her LOL), and my
daughter studies in a Christian school.

I don't want to push my child into atheism. If anything, I would like her to
come to the conclusion all by herself.


----- Original Message ----
From: "Michael Muin, MD" <mikemuin@...>
To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 2, 2008 1:27:36 AM
Subject: [pinoy_atheists] Atheist Parenting


Hello,

Let me cut to the chase and go to the meat of why I joined this group.
I want to hear stories, tips and advice on atheist parents raising a
child here in the Philippines. We know how strong religious influence
is in our society and it can be difficult.

My 6 y.o. son goes to a semi-Catholic school. There are very few
religious activities but religious chatter still creeps in. I try not
to mention religion in our household. My basic premise is not to raise
an atheist, but a freethinker. I want him to question a lot and we can
find answer together. But once in a while I get, "Papa, if God made
man, who made God?" or "Was Jesus God or man?" It's hard to answer
these questions to a 6 yo without going through a lot of explanations
about religious delusions, etc. I'm still trying to find a good way to
answer these 'religious' questions.

I come from a religious family: Muslim father (who is now a Hajji) and
Catholic mother. My father-in-law is a former seminarian. So my son is
exposed to both Islam and Christianity. But there is very little
religious talk in my home. And my parents and in-laws do not intrude
much about our (non-existent) 'religious activities'.

I've been reading a lot about this topic (atheist parenting) online,
but it's not easily adoptable in our setting because most articles and
discussions are US-based. I'd rather hear from parents here in the
Philippines.

Since we all value evidence, I'd like responses to be qualified so
please say if you are an atheist parent or a child raised by atheist
parents. If you are neither, well, you can still contribute but I
generally don't place high value on parenting advice given by
non-parents.

Hope to hear from the group soon!

Thanks!

Mike


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fellow atheists,

   When my kids were young I was not a confirmed atheist, I suppose I could have
been called an agnostic.I never forced my ideas on them but When I was asked
about religion I said I had supported no religion and suggested they look at all
the religion before committing to one. Of course that would take more than a
life time, but if anyone was to take a serious look at some of them I believe
they would come to the conclusion that they would have found them so
contradictory that the only conclusion would be that they are all delusional.

   They become atheists without my prompting, this worked for me, it may work for
others who really knows?

   I do think Richard Dawkins letter to his daughter is really good advice which
was not available when I was at the child raising age. The advice given in a
previous post was to say "Let's find out" to questions on religion is also very
good advice.

   Cheers Doug Adam

jose mario sison <joma_sison@...> wrote:
           If there is a sure way of raising a child, then that discoverer should
be a super billionaire by this time.

Unless a child was born with it a manual titled "How to raise this kid" then
how-to's depend so much on the background of the parents and despite that, there
are no guarantees.

Religiosity in the Philippines is deep-rooted. I remember reading an article by
JParaiso that says it succintly - People in the Philippines truly believe that
they owe their life in God and that it is some kind of a divine pawnshop, where
God can claim it back when He needs it.

I do not force my worldview on my 3 kids, but i make sure that any religious
talk within our house is dealt in a manner that its 'other side' is exposed.

"Michael Muin, MD" <mikemuin@...> wrote:
Hello,

Let me cut to the chase and go to the meat of why I joined this group.
I want to hear stories, tips and advice on atheist parents raising a
child here in the Philippines. We know how strong religious influence
is in our society and it can be difficult.

My 6 y.o. son goes to a semi-Catholic school. There are very few
religious activities but religious chatter still creeps in. I try not
to mention religion in our household. My basic premise is not to raise
an atheist, but a freethinker. I want him to question a lot and we can
find answer together. But once in a while I get, "Papa, if God made
man, who made God?" or "Was Jesus God or man?" It's hard to answer
these questions to a 6 yo without going through a lot of explanations
about religious delusions, etc. I'm still trying to find a good way to
answer these 'religious' questions.

I come from a religious family: Muslim father (who is now a Hajji) and
Catholic mother. My father-in-law is a former seminarian. So my son is
exposed to both Islam and Christianity. But there is very little
religious talk in my home. And my parents and in-laws do not intrude
much about our (non-existent) 'religious activities'.

I've been reading a lot about this topic (atheist parenting) online,
but it's not easily adoptable in our setting because most articles and
discussions are US-based. I'd rather hear from parents here in the
Philippines.

Since we all value evidence, I'd like responses to be qualified so
please say if you are an atheist parent or a child raised by atheist
parents. If you are neither, well, you can still contribute but I
generally don't place high value on parenting advice given by
non-parents.

Hope to hear from the group soon!

Thanks!

Mike

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Somebody has to read my daughter a story before she goes to sleep.
What I do, because I have been doing this for about five years now, is
sometimes change the storyline. A lot of fairy tales are really not
good stories: Snow White involves tresspassing into private property
and multiple attempted murders, Hansel and Gretl had theft and
homicide, and some variations of Little Red Riding Hood also include
homicide, Jack And The Beanstalk has trickery, theft, and eventually a
homicide, Puss 'n Boots is about scamming, and the Three Billy Goats
Gruff had premeditated murder of the troll. :) Earlier when I started
doing this routine, she used to tell me that that's not how the story
went but I tell her these are not-so-good stories that we can change
if we want or we can make them up as well. I don't think it will lead
her to become a critical thinker but I think it will help her be
creative. From time to time we reverse roles: she tells me a story
before she sleeps and she enjoys it very much. The idea is for her to
be prepared early to recognize fairy tales because religion teaches
their fairy tales to children as if their stories are different. Small
kids are impressionable. Without guidance the kids can be thoroughly
indoctrinated very early that in most cases maybe, I don't know but
perhaps it's difficult to undo. I wouldn't let that thing happen to my
kids. I know and am fully convinced that religion is full of bullshit
so why give religion an equal footing with respect to my children's
upbringing? When she starts asking me about Jesus and the bible, I
know exactly what I'll tell her: do you think it's real or is it just
a (not-so-good) story? It's not suited for children without proper
guidance because it has sado-masochism, self-pity, murder, etc. If it
becomes a problem for her fitting in a Catholic school, I'd move her
to a non-religious school right away. Right now, it's the most
convenient and besides, the Japanese are mostly non-committed to any
religion. They usually grow up becoming agnostics, so I don't worry
much. It's when my daughter takes vacation in the Philippines that's
scaring me. When she attended a Catholic kindergarten in Valenzuela,
she was enrolled in a school run by a Catholic education group and I
tell you they teach them really really young. I've had a glimpse of
Michael's (thread originator) concerns and it's really discouraging.

A friend of mine told me that if ever he'd have kids, he would know he
succeeded in raising his children as critical thinkers when they tell
him: "Daddy, you are full of shit. You are full of shit."

T


--- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, doug john <theadamfamilyoz@...>
wrote:
>
> Fellow atheists,
>
>   When my kids were young I was not a confirmed atheist, I suppose I
could have been called an agnostic.I never forced my ideas on them but
When I was asked about religion I said I had supported no religion and
suggested they look at all the religion before committing to one. Of
course that would take more than a life time, but if anyone was to
take a serious look at some of them I believe they would come to the
conclusion that they would have found them so contradictory that the
only conclusion would be that they are all delusional.
>
>   They become atheists without my prompting, this worked for me, it
may work for others who really knows?
>
>   I do think Richard Dawkins letter to his daughter is really good
advice which was not available when I was at the child raising age.
The advice given in a previous post was to say "Let's find out" to
questions on religion is also very good advice.
>
>   Cheers Doug Adam
>
> jose mario sison <joma_sison@...> wrote:
>           If there is a sure way of raising a child, then that
discoverer should be a super billionaire by this time.
>
> Unless a child was born with it a manual titled "How to raise this
kid" then how-to's depend so much on the background of the parents and
despite that, there are no guarantees.
>
> Religiosity in the Philippines is deep-rooted. I remember reading an
article by JParaiso that says it succintly - People in the Philippines
truly believe that they owe their life in God and that it is some kind
of a divine pawnshop, where God can claim it back when He needs it.
>
> I do not force my worldview on my 3 kids, but i make sure that any
religious talk within our house is dealt in a manner that its 'other
side' is exposed.
>
> "Michael Muin, MD" <mikemuin@...> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Let me cut to the chase and go to the meat of why I joined this group.
> I want to hear stories, tips and advice on atheist parents raising a
> child here in the Philippines. We know how strong religious influence
> is in our society and it can be difficult.
>
> My 6 y.o. son goes to a semi-Catholic school. There are very few
> religious activities but religious chatter still creeps in. I try not
> to mention religion in our household. My basic premise is not to raise
> an atheist, but a freethinker. I want him to question a lot and we can
> find answer together. But once in a while I get, "Papa, if God made
> man, who made God?" or "Was Jesus God or man?" It's hard to answer
> these questions to a 6 yo without going through a lot of explanations
> about religious delusions, etc. I'm still trying to find a good way to
> answer these 'religious' questions.
>
> I come from a religious family: Muslim father (who is now a Hajji) and
> Catholic mother. My father-in-law is a former seminarian. So my son is
> exposed to both Islam and Christianity. But there is very little
> religious talk in my home. And my parents and in-laws do not intrude
> much about our (non-existent) 'religious activities'.
>
> I've been reading a lot about this topic (atheist parenting) online,
> but it's not easily adoptable in our setting because most articles and
> discussions are US-based. I'd rather hear from parents here in the
> Philippines.
>
> Since we all value evidence, I'd like responses to be qualified so
> please say if you are an atheist parent or a child raised by atheist
> parents. If you are neither, well, you can still contribute but I
> generally don't place high value on parenting advice given by
> non-parents.
>
> Hope to hear from the group soon!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mike
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
Try it now.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Haha! Reminds me of an episode in a pdocast called "Logically Critical"

http://www.logicallycritical.net/Episodes.html

It's episode #8.

The guy is quite funny and very entertaining. Too bad he's discontinued the
podcast already...



----- Original Message ----
From: tony <paetenian@...>
To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 12:49:12 PM
Subject: [pinoy_atheists] Re: Atheist Parenting


Somebody has to read my daughter a story before she goes to sleep.
What I do, because I have been doing this for about five years now, is
sometimes change the storyline. A lot of fairy tales are really not
good stories: Snow White involves tresspassing into private property
and multiple attempted murders, Hansel and Gretl had theft and
homicide, and some variations of Little Red Riding Hood also include
homicide, Jack And The Beanstalk has trickery, theft, and eventually a
homicide, Puss 'n Boots is about scamming, and the Three Billy Goats
Gruff had premeditated murder of the troll. :) Earlier when I started
doing this routine, she used to tell me that that's not how the story
went but I tell her these are not-so-good stories that we can change
if we want or we can make them up as well. I don't think it will lead
her to become a critical thinker but I think it will help her be
creative. From time to time we reverse roles: she tells me a story
before she sleeps and she enjoys it very much. The idea is for her to
be prepared early to recognize fairy tales because religion teaches
their fairy tales to children as if their stories are different. Small
kids are impressionable. Without guidance the kids can be thoroughly
indoctrinated very early that in most cases maybe, I don't know but
perhaps it's difficult to undo. I wouldn't let that thing happen to my
kids. I know and am fully convinced that religion is full of bullshit
so why give religion an equal footing with respect to my children's
upbringing? When she starts asking me about Jesus and the bible, I
know exactly what I'll tell her: do you think it's real or is it just
a (not-so-good) story? It's not suited for children without proper
guidance because it has sado-masochism, self-pity, murder, etc. If it
becomes a problem for her fitting in a Catholic school, I'd move her
to a non-religious school right away. Right now, it's the most
convenient and besides, the Japanese are mostly non-committed to any
religion. They usually grow up becoming agnostics, so I don't worry
much. It's when my daughter takes vacation in the Philippines that's
scaring me. When she attended a Catholic kindergarten in Valenzuela,
she was enrolled in a school run by a Catholic education group and I
tell you they teach them really really young. I've had a glimpse of
Michael's (thread originator) concerns and it's really discouraging.

A friend of mine told me that if ever he'd have kids, he would know he
succeeded in raising his children as critical thinkers when they tell
him: "Daddy, you are full of shit. You are full of shit."

T

--- In pinoy_atheists@ yahoogroups. com, doug john <theadamfamilyoz@ ...>
wrote:
>
> Fellow atheists,
>
>   When my kids were young I was not a confirmed atheist, I suppose I
could have been called an agnostic.I never forced my ideas on them but
When I was asked about religion I said I had supported no religion and
suggested they look at all the religion before committing to one. Of
course that would take more than a life time, but if anyone was to
take a serious look at some of them I believe they would come to the
conclusion that they would have found them so contradictory that the
only conclusion would be that they are all delusional.
>
>   They become atheists without my prompting, this worked for me, it
may work for others who really knows?
>
>   I do think Richard Dawkins letter to his daughter is really good
advice which was not available when I was at the child raising age.
The advice given in a previous post was to say "Let's find out" to
questions on religion is also very good advice.
>
>   Cheers Doug Adam
>
> jose mario sison <joma_sison@ ...> wrote:
>           If there is a sure way of raising a child, then that
discoverer should be a super billionaire by this time.
>
> Unless a child was born with it a manual titled "How to raise this
kid" then how-to's depend so much on the background of the parents and
despite that, there are no guarantees.
>
> Religiosity in the Philippines is deep-rooted. I remember reading an
article by JParaiso that says it succintly - People in the Philippines
truly believe that they owe their life in God and that it is some kind
of a divine pawnshop, where God can claim it back when He needs it.
>
> I do not force my worldview on my 3 kids, but i make sure that any
religious talk within our house is dealt in a manner that its 'other
side' is exposed.
>
> "Michael Muin, MD" <mikemuin@.. .> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Let me cut to the chase and go to the meat of why I joined this group.
> I want to hear stories, tips and advice on atheist parents raising a
> child here in the Philippines. We know how strong religious influence
> is in our society and it can be difficult.
>
> My 6 y.o. son goes to a semi-Catholic school. There are very few
> religious activities but religious chatter still creeps in. I try not
> to mention religion in our household. My basic premise is not to raise
> an atheist, but a freethinker. I want him to question a lot and we can
> find answer together. But once in a while I get, "Papa, if God made
> man, who made God?" or "Was Jesus God or man?" It's hard to answer
> these questions to a 6 yo without going through a lot of explanations
> about religious delusions, etc. I'm still trying to find a good way to
> answer these 'religious' questions.
>
> I come from a religious family: Muslim father (who is now a Hajji) and
> Catholic mother. My father-in-law is a former seminarian. So my son is
> exposed to both Islam and Christianity. But there is very little
> religious talk in my home. And my parents and in-laws do not intrude
> much about our (non-existent) 'religious activities'.
>
> I've been reading a lot about this topic (atheist parenting) online,
> but it's not easily adoptable in our setting because most articles and
> discussions are US-based. I'd rather hear from parents here in the
> Philippines.
>
> Since we all value evidence, I'd like responses to be qualified so
> please say if you are an atheist parent or a child raised by atheist
> parents. If you are neither, well, you can still contribute but I
> generally don't place high value on parenting advice given by
> non-parents.
>
> Hope to hear from the group soon!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mike
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ---
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
Try it now.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ---
> Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks John. That's really funny. I am glad other peopls see things
the same way I do and am now more convinced that fairy tales may be
bad for children without parental guidance. Like the podcast, I make
side comments to the storyline when I read it to my daughter, which
also makes it more interesting for her. There's a lot of nonsense in
fairy tales and you always spot more of them the more you read them
over and over. The podcast also mentioned the many versions of the
stories. I think my daughter has at least 3 versions of the Little Red
Riding Hood with one that has the least violent ending had the wolf
getting scared when the father who was felling trees nearby heard of
the screams of Little Red Riding Hood when she saw the wolf while the
grandma was inside the cabinet hiding. The wolf ran away and was never
to be seen again. I try to hide the stuffs which I think are really
not good like Lilo and Stich that teach children to be makulit. She
only saw it once when she was about three and she already picked up
Lilo's antics so I hind the DVD somewhere. One of the worst fairy tale
I ever read to her and which I always change the ending if she
insisted that I read it is the Little Match Girl. It's total crap.

Once we were at the mall, she saw something she wanted us to buy. I
told her, I could not buy it (expensive but worthless) but instead I'd
get her a magic frog she can kiss. She said "There's no such thing!
It's just a story daddy."

I used to tell her there's no such thing as magic. I think there are
things that we have to be upfront rather than taking the more standard
"I'll let her decide for herself" approach. This will teach her a
valuable lesson early: there are no supernatural shortcuts. If I may
use Dennet's analogy, there are no skyhooks. If she understands that,
she cannot be taken in by talk about religious miracles.

T


--- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, John <harmless168@...> wrote:
>
> Haha! Reminds me of an episode in a pdocast called "Logically Critical"
>
> http://www.logicallycritical.net/Episodes.html
>
> It's episode #8.
>
> The guy is quite funny and very entertaining. Too bad he's
discontinued the podcast already...
>

somebody recorded it. :)

It was a very good show. We discussed the ethics and  legalities
behind downloading music off the internet. All the guests were
knowledgeable about the topic.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=DEADFF1D74F1403F

Watch me to see my atrocious eyebags. yay

Thanks everyone for the input! They were all helpful.

Tony: That fairy tale approach is very good. I think I will use that
in the future. I too tell stories before he sleeps but I usually get
them from my childhood experiences. If I am blank, I go for old fairy
tales. But approaching religious stories as another form of those
fairy tales can help him understand that these are just stories.

Doug: The Dawkins letter is helpful. I liked the part where he gives
the 3 bad reasons for believing anything. That is very useful, not
only for my son, but even for friends and family who are believers.
The letter reminded me of Salman Rushdie's letter to the 6 Billionth
World Citizen (Imagine There's No Heaven). For those interested, below
is the link:

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a380b67eb6a46.htm
(This is also an essay found in Christopher Hitchens's The Portable Atheist)

I don't worry to much about my little boy when he's at home. We have a
very secular lifestyle. What worries me is when he goes out (well,
which parent doesn't :D ). But beyond all other worries of physical
injuries and harm, I don't want him to feel different, left out or
shunned because of our non-belief.

Just this afternoon, he was talking with his cousins about a sign we
passed along on the street: Say Yes to God, No to Drugs. (Can we say
No to both?) And because it's May, processions and Santacruzans will
be common place. If I'm not there, other people (well-meaning
relatives and friends) will try to explain the role of God in all
these activities (and in our lives).

Maybe I'm just overthinking the problem. They do say we can never
worry too much about our kids. :D

I agree there is no perfect way to raise kids. But it would be good to
feel prepared with other people's experiences. I guess this will be
one great learning adventure for us as a family.

Thanks for all the help!

Mike

Haha I totally agree with you. When I said "let her decide for herself" in an
earlier post. I meant regarding religion. I would like to say "God is not real"
to her, but that would entail so much explanation that would go over her head as
of this moment (not to mention that my wife is Christian, although like I said,
I think I'm getting to her). That's why I said I'd want her to come to her own
conclusions. But of course, I will teach her the essential critical thinking
skills that we all need in life. Critical thinking is not just for religion, but
for everything we deal with everyday. :)


----- Original Message ----
From: tony <paetenian@...>
To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 7:57:16 PM
Subject: [pinoy_atheists] Re: Atheist Parenting



Thanks John. That's really funny. I am glad other peopls see things
the same way I do and am now more convinced that fairy tales may be
bad for children without parental guidance. Like the podcast, I make
side comments to the storyline when I read it to my daughter, which
also makes it more interesting for her. There's a lot of nonsense in
fairy tales and you always spot more of them the more you read them
over and over. The podcast also mentioned the many versions of the
stories. I think my daughter has at least 3 versions of the Little Red
Riding Hood with one that has the least violent ending had the wolf
getting scared when the father who was felling trees nearby heard of
the screams of Little Red Riding Hood when she saw the wolf while the
grandma was inside the cabinet hiding. The wolf ran away and was never
to be seen again. I try to hide the stuffs which I think are really
not good like Lilo and Stich that teach children to be makulit. She
only saw it once when she was about three and she already picked up
Lilo's antics so I hind the DVD somewhere. One of the worst fairy tale
I ever read to her and which I always change the ending if she
insisted that I read it is the Little Match Girl. It's total crap.

Once we were at the mall, she saw something she wanted us to buy. I
told her, I could not buy it (expensive but worthless) but instead I'd
get her a magic frog she can kiss. She said "There's no such thing!
It's just a story daddy."

I used to tell her there's no such thing as magic. I think there are
things that we have to be upfront rather than taking the more standard
"I'll let her decide for herself" approach. This will teach her a
valuable lesson early: there are no supernatural shortcuts. If I may
use Dennet's analogy, there are no skyhooks. If she understands that,
she cannot be taken in by talk about religious miracles.

T

--- In pinoy_atheists@ yahoogroups. com, John <harmless168@ ...> wrote:
>
> Haha! Reminds me of an episode in a pdocast called "Logically Critical"
>
> http://www.logicall ycritical. net/Episodes. html
>
> It's episode #8.
>
> The guy is quite funny and very entertaining. Too bad he's
discontinued the podcast already...
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.atheista.net/2008/05/04/the-agony-of-intelligence/
Here's my latest post. I usually find writing about this topic to be
very draining so it's a big deal for me.

Anybody seen the whole series? I've seen only The Atheism Tapes series
which was an offshoot of this documentary. I am now seeing the main
documentary. It features interviews with Daniel Dennett, Pascal Boyer,
Richard Dawkins, Colin McGuinn, and Steven Weinberg.

T

What a coincidence (or isit?)! I just downloaded them today... :)

----- Original Message ----
From: tony <paetenian@...>
To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 5, 2008 3:10:56 PM
Subject: [pinoy_atheists] Jonathn Miller's Brief History Of Disbelief


Anybody seen the whole series? I've seen only The Atheism Tapes series
which was an offshoot of this documentary. I am now seeing the main
documentary. It features interviews with Daniel Dennett, Pascal Boyer,
Richard Dawkins, Colin McGuinn, and Steven Weinberg.

T




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have a copy of Part 1 2 and 3



----- Original Message ----
From: tony <paetenian@...>
To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 5, 2008 3:10:56 PM
Subject: [pinoy_atheists] Jonathn Miller's Brief History Of Disbelief



Anybody seen the whole series? I've seen only The Atheism Tapes series
which was an offshoot of this documentary. I am now seeing the main
documentary. It features interviews with Daniel Dennett, Pascal Boyer,
Richard Dawkins, Colin McGuinn, and Steven Weinberg.

T




      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

huh?!?!


--- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, John Paraiso
<pinoy_atheist@...> wrote:
>
> I have a copy of Part 1 2 and 3
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: tony <paetenian@...>
> To: pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, May 5, 2008 3:10:56 PM
> Subject: [pinoy_atheists] Jonathn Miller's Brief History Of Disbelief
>
>
>
> Anybody seen the whole series? I've seen only The Atheism Tapes series
> which was an offshoot of this documentary. I am now seeing the main
> documentary. It features interviews with Daniel Dennett, Pascal Boyer,
> Richard Dawkins, Colin McGuinn, and Steven Weinberg.
>
> T
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Grabe, can I just vent? Blogie strikes me as incredibly defensive
about his beliefs. Notice how he tries to disentangle himself from
having to defend his points, saying that it's meant only for a face to
face discussion, that his beliefs aren't limited to proof, etc. etc.?

Yun lang.

--- In pinoy_atheists@yahoogroups.com, "Benj Espina"
<swingonthespiral@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.atheista.net/2008/05/04/the-agony-of-intelligence/
> Here's my latest post. I usually find writing about this topic to be
> very draining so it's a big deal for me.
>