I am severely dissapointed by the personal bashing on this list.  I joined it
not knowing what was to be expected and am feeling like I made a mistake.

Randy

I don't blame you for modeling Alcos.  There was just something about
them.  If I were modeling the diesal era, I would be modeling with
Baldwins.  I was fortunate to see C&O using a AS-616 on the hump yard in
my hometown in WV when I was in collage.  They were fun to watch and the
sound was like a burble.  I also got the chance to see a VGN trainmaster
in operation.  Talk about big.  Since you're on a limited budget, who
isn't, I suggest you look at the new Athearn mike that will be out in
mid-August.  They were used by the NKP and would fit in with what you're
doing.

As far as modeling autoracks and high cubes, I never saw them on the B&O
Ohio River sub-division that ran by my parent's house until the merger
with C&O and the line was diverted.  Yes it does pay to model some areas
of the country.

Larry Smith

My River Run is set in the early eighties when cast off Alco Power was
in abundance. I have to admit I'm kind of partial to short lines
operating Alcos. One nice thing about modeling W&LE/NKP Territory is I
don't have to worry about long box cars and tri-level auto racks. I'm
also a NKP fan and have quite allot of NKP equipment. So Prototype
Freelancing works out for me just right. I can't afford brass engines,
so all of my equipment is plastic, including several Rivarossi
Berkshires and Mikados. I'll definitly have to stay with code 100 rail.
Randy-

Randy

I know what you mean.  My layout came down after 10 years when I couldn't do
anything with it.  I'm modeling two railroads.  The first is called the
Clinch River and is narrow guage.  It is set in Western Virginia around
Wise.  It uses EBT equipment and structures, but I'm not adverse to other
eastern narrow guage equipment showing up on the road.  Premise is we bought
it at a bargin price.  My standard guage railroad is also set in Western
Virginia and is called the Clinchfield Northern.  The reporting marks are
CC&O.  The concept is that the railroad is jointly owned by the B&O and C&O
and each take turns operating the railroad.  The structures are C&O and the
motive power and cabooses are B&O.  Both railroads are set during WWII so
I'm able to have a wide variety of rolling stock.  Everything is lettered
for Clinchfield Northern.  I do like hopper cars so modeling the coal fields
make for an interesting time, and yes there were a lot of differences in
hopper cars.

Larry Smith, MMR
Contributing Editor
Model Railroading

Randy Roadrunner wrote:

> From: rs-11@... (Randy Roadrunner)
>
> He was only one of the contributing factors. I decided it was time for
> the layout to look like the territory is was supposed to be. I had 200
> feet of main line that looked like tracks on a board.
> I happen to know Tony, he's just full of himself. I just remind him of
> the time Carstens gave him the boot, that brings him back to earth.
> Randy-
>
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> ONElist users:  YOU can win a $100 gift certificate to Amazon.com.
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He was only one of the contributing factors. I decided it was time for
the layout to look like the territory is was supposed to be. I had 200
feet of main line that looked like tracks on a board.
I happen to know Tony, he's just full of himself. I just remind him of
the time Carstens gave him the boot, that brings him back to earth.
Randy-

Rich

I don't know what bear trap you set in, but I disagree with your opinion of
Tony Koester.  I've know him for over 20 years and have never found him the
way you describe.  In fact I just set and talked with him, over a beer, for
over two hours the end of May, so I do know him personally.  We all have our
likes and dislikes when it comes to layouts and I'm no exception.  I've also
have been lambasted because I stated my personal preference for a specific
type of layout in an article I wrote.  Just because someone may or may not
agree with your modeling philosophy doesn't give you the right to flame
them.

Larry Smith, MMR
Contributing Editor
Model Railroading

argenta rich wrote:

> From: argenta rich <argentarich@...>
>
> --- Randy Roadrunner <rs-11@...> wrote:
>  I'm
> > currently between layouts as the old one outlived
> > its feaseability. I
> > read too many articles by Tony Koester, and my
> > layout just wasn't right.
>
> Don't understand your point.  Koester is a first class a**hole and
> self-appointed arbiter of what he considers good or bad model
> railroading, so I can't figure out whether your old pike wasn't good
> any more because you followed Koester's advice or because you didn't.
> :-)
>
> Rich
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Attention ONElist list owners.
> http://www.onelist.com
> We've just added a "NO ATTACHMENTS" option.  See homepage for details.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

--- Randy Roadrunner <rs-11@...> wrote:
  I'm
> currently between layouts as the old one outlived
> its feaseability. I
> read too many articles by Tony Koester, and my
> layout just wasn't right.

Don't understand your point.  Koester is a first class a**hole and
self-appointed arbiter of what he considers good or bad model
railroading, so I can't figure out whether your old pike wasn't good
any more because you followed Koester's advice or because you didn't.
:-)

Rich

My loco roster follows standards set by the existing shortlines.  Right now
CSX usually assigns a trio of GP40-2 or similar engines on the Grand
Rapids-Ludington line.  The shortlines use rebuilt GP9's. GP38's and a
SW1200.  As I develop my roster, my chooses would be along very similar
lines.  Since CSX is phasing out their GP38's now, they would be a big part
of the roster.  The Ludington-Grand Rapids line has several ruling grades
that would require some management of the motive power going north. Well I
have to go.  More later.

Bob

Sounds good Bob! Mine is the River Run, Coshocton, and Southern, or
River Run for short. It's a short line spun off after the merger of the
Norfolk and Western and the Southern Railway. The River Run concept was
thought of by me before the creation of the 1:1 Ohio Central Railroad.
The River Run is from Run Jct. Ohio to Zanesville Ohio on the old
Wheeling and Lake Erie. My road is powered by an all Alco fleet using
Century 420's, 424's, and 425's. At the present time The River Run has
20 locomotives on the roster the oldest being a pair of RS-1's. I'm
currently between layouts as the old one outlived its feaseability. I
read too many articles by Tony Koester, and my layout just wasn't right.
I'm a custom painter too.
Randy-

Hello-
This is my first posting to this list.  I will take a little bit to describe
my proto-freelanced railroad system.  It is based on sections of railroads in
Michigan that are curently operating.  It is the combination of CSX's Grand
Rapids-Ludington Division, Railtex's Grand Rapids & Eastern, Railtex's
Mid-Michigan Railroad, Greenville Division, Ludington & Northern, a section
of former CR(Pennsylvania) track in Grand Rapids.  It would follow many of
the operating proceedures of the current Railtex's operations.  I think that
the start up date would be about April 1st, 2000.  It would include
interchanges with NS(CR), CSX, and Coopersville & Marne ( a tourist RR).  I
would like any ideas that you would be able to provide.  Thanks

Bob Teusink
Grand Rapids, Michigan

Hi

Yes, I wondered about how quiet things were.  My railroad will be the
Memphis and Argenta, linking Memphis, Tennessee with Argenta, Arkansas
(former name of North Little Rock, Ark.) and going on to Hot Springs,
Ark.  It's my notion that the Missouri Pacific hands over passenger
cars to the M&A at Argenta going to Hot Springs, and the M&A brings
cars from Memphis to Argenta to go onto MP's trains to Texas.  I'm only
modeling the Benton, Ark. to Hot Springs line as the volume of traffic
on MP's mainline would be too difficult to sustain.  Time period is
still undecided - somewhere between 1930 to 1945 will probably be it.

Regards

Rich

> >Don't know if this list is active or not but here
> goes.
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Hi Randy,

From: rs-11@... (Randy Earle)
>
>Don't know if this list is active or not but here goes. My Railroad is
>the River Run, Coshocton, and Southern. It's H-O Scale and projected to
>be in the Ohio Valley, and it's all Alco powered.

The list has been quiet for a while. I've been working on the Auburn Project
( http://nyow.railfan.net/nyow/auburn/home.html  ), and it seems that when I
shut-up so does everyone else! :o\   LOL!

Well, now that you got my attention with "all Alco powered" how about
telling us more?

A.J. Kleipass owinwcorp@...
--------------------------------------------------------
How long ago a flag fell will not matter so long as there are railfans and
modelers to pick it up again and hand it off to the next generation.
--------------------------------------------------------
Metropolitian Union Terminal - http://nyow.railfan.net
Proto-Freelance Modelers SIG - http://nyow.railfan.net/pfmsig/
New Haven E-mail List - http://nyow.railfan.net/nhlist/
NYO&W E-mail List - http://nyow.railfan.net/nyowlist/
There's something for everyone at MUTT !

Don't know if this list is active or not but here goes. My Railroad is
the River Run, Coshocton, and Southern. It's H-O Scale and projected to
be in the Ohio Valley, and it's all Alco powered.

-----Original Message-----
From: Aric Peery <aric@...>
To: NERAIL@... <NERAIL@...>
Date: Saturday, June 05, 1999 09:42
Subject: [NERAIL] Cooperstown & Charlotte Valley up and running


This afternoon, NYO&W #116 and 3 former Brandywine Scenic Railway coaches
pulled into Milford, headquarters for the Cooperstown & Charlotte Valley.
Saturday will find CACV crew and volunteers getting oriented with the
equipment and schedules; if everything goes well, and barring any unforseen
problems, excursion trains should be running on Sunday, with the first one
leaving Milford at 9:30 AM. The full schedule can be found at
http://www.lrhs.com/schedule.html

Aric Peery
LRHS volunteer

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
   REMEMBER TO CHECK THE TO:  LINE WHEN REPLYING TO A MESSAGE!  THANKS
   NERAIL - New England Railroad / Railfanning Mailing List
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well sorta, the following is fowarded from a posting to the O&W RHS
  http://www.nyow.org )members from their webmaster.

A.J. Kleipass owinwcorp@...
--------------------------------------------------------
How long ago a flag fell will not matter so long as there are railfans and
modelers to pick it up again and hand it off to the next generation.

***********************************************
-----Original Message-----

>Subject:
>         O&W loco in use
>    Date:
>         Sat, 22 May 1999 17:57:38 EDT
>   From:
>         MANDURR@...
>     To:
>         Caseycam2@..., DaveAck1@..., DougBarRRX@...,
>toy3@...,
>         mnjrhs@onelist.com, owrhs@...
>
>
>
>From: SJBotts@...
>
>        The Cooperstown and Charlotte Valley Railway (CACV) will re-open
>
>eight miles of railroad right-of-way for tourist excursion service on
>Saturday, May 29. Through special arrangements made with Walter Rich and
>
>Delaware Otsego Corporation/NYS&W, the CACV line will use NYO&W NW-2
>diesel
>#116 to power excursion trains for the first few months of operation.
>The
>1999 operating season will last until November 7. Operating schedule is
>as
>follows: trains will operate weekends and holidays, May 29 through
>November
>7. In addition, trains will operate an extended Tuesday through Sunday
>schedule from June 22 through September 6. Trains will depart from both
>the
>Milford Depot in Milford, N.Y., and from Cooperstown, N.Y. Departure
>times
>from Milford are 9:30 a.m., 11:30 a.m., 1:30 p.m., 3:30 p.m. and 5:30
>p.m.
>Departure times from Cooperstown are 10:30 a.m., 12:30 p.m., 2:30 p.m.,
>4:30
>p.m. and 6:30 p.m. The railroad encourages visitors to park their
>vehicles in
>Milford, then take the train to the Cooperstown station stop just south
>of
>town. In Cooperstown, a trolley-style bus system will take riders into
>downtown Cooperstown.   The railroad expects that this system will help
>tourists avoid parking problems in Cooperstown. Attractions in the
>nearby
>area include the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, the
>National
>Soccer Hall of Fame in Oneonta, the Farmers Museum in Cooperstown, the
>Fenimore House in Cooperstown, and Otsego Lake. For more information,
>please
>contact the Leatherstocking Railway Historical Society at 607-432-2429.
>The
>LRHS web site can be found at www.lrhs.com. (Railpace via Aaron Keller)
>

In a message dated 5/16/99 3:19:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, A.J. Kleipass
<owinwcorp@...>  writes:

<< There are several ways you could expand business even more down here in
the NYCity area. With Fresh Kills set to close in a few years your road could
be rolling in dough from the trash trains; The LIRR freight contract ( now
operated by the New York & Atlantic ) as another way of expanding business;
and since you are already on the Hudson line, how about reopening the
Westside Freight line?>>

Certainly a possibility.  However, I am somewhat constrained in what I can
actually model - I don't have (or expect to have) a gymnasium-sized space,
which would certainly be required to do the entire line justice.  My plans at
this point call for modeling the Albany-Schenectady stretch, along with part
of the Hudson line headed south, possibly to the Poughkeepsie area.  Staging
will represent the NYC and Maybrook gateways.  As a result, although the West
Side freight line might see reactiviation under M&H management, it wouldn't
show up in terms of layout traffic.   The trash trains would, though, and I'd
try to fit them in.

I want to keep the upper end of the line for two reasons - my wife is from
that area (which makes real estate negotiation somewhat easier), and I want
to include the NYS rail museum, which will be located in the old ALCo plant.
Besides, doing justice to the NYC area operations is way beyond my
abilities...

Joshua Moldover
JAMoldover@...

Here we go...

David Thompson
**********
  Things settled down for a few years after the merger, but N&W and C&O
were expanding west so PC&SW did the same. The first tentative step was
to purchase the Kanawha & West Virginia and Kanawha & Michigan in 1897,
forming a Charleston-to-Columbus,OH route. The road purchased a 25% stake
in the Louisville & Nashville from J.P. Morgan in 1902 (ACL held 26%),
and a 25% stake in the Hocking Valley that same year. In 1903 the road
purchased a 1/4 interest in the Toledo & Ohio Central (Columbus-Toledo,OH;
LS&MS, Erie, and C&O held the other 3/4), and began a line across southern
Ohio near Gallipolis southwest to Portsmouth, then along the north bank
of the Ohio River to Cincinnati. This line was completed in 1904, as was
the purchase of the Tennessee Central and a line fron Knoxville to connect
it to the system. That same year, the PC&SW built south from Rockwood on
the TC toward Chattanooga.

   The Chattanooga line was completed a year later, and the PC&SW expanded
further southward with the purchase of the Central of Georgia. In 1906
the PC&SW returned its attention to the Midwest. The road leased the
Cincinnati Hamilton & Dayton, gaining routes to Toledo and Springfield,IL.
The PC&SW tried to gain control of the Chicago and Alton that year, but
ultimately lost out to the Clover Leaf. The PC&SW extended the TC north
and west from Hopkinsville,KY to Paducah,KY, completing that line and a
line from Nashville,TN to Memphis,TN in 1907. That year saw the lease of
the Chicago Cincinnati & Louisville, which ran between the first two
cities in its name, and the beginning of a route across southern Kentucky
from Charleston to Somerset,KY and south to Lebanon,TN on the TC line. The
PC&SW also swapped its Hocking Valley interest to C&O for that road's
share in T&OC (LS&MS bough out Erie's share), and set up a joint
management system.

  With the recent expansion, the proxy fight over the Alton, and the
recession of 1907 looming over the road, the PC&SW was forced to sell the
CofG to Edward Harriman to remain solvent. The financial difficulty was
brief, however, and the PC&SW purchased the Chicago Peoria & St. Louis to
gain a Springfield-St. Louis route in 1908. That year also saw the
construction of the Lebanon(VA) & Pikeville(KY) between those two towns
(and between the old RV&T and the new line through southern Kentucky).
That line was extended to a connection with the Carolina Clinchfield &
Ohio at Dante,VA a year later. 1909 also saw the completion of a line from
Somerset north to New Albany,IN. The next year, the PC&SW leased the
Chicago Terre Haute & Southeastern, the Coal and Coke Railroad (Charleston-
Elkins,WV), the completion of the southern Kentucky line, and the purchase
of an 80% interest in the Western Maryland. In 1911, the PC&SW completed
lines connecting the CTH&SE to New Albany and Cincinnati, purchased the
Missouri & Northern Arkansas to provide a connection to Frisco and KCS
near Kansas City (Frisco had its own line to Memphis, but PC&SW preferred
to keep bridge traffic on lines under its umbrella), and built a line from
Memphis to Cotton Plant,AR on the M&NA.

  1912 saw an ICC investigation into the affairs of the PC&SW. Although
nothing came of it, the move killed any thoughts of merging the L&P, WM,
or M&NA, or of any further expansion. Instead, the road settled down and
spent the Teens consolidating its system, buying out various leases,
upgrading older lines, reducing grades (particularly on the Tennessee
Central), and building various bypasses (the longest of these was a
southern cutoff around Roanoke). With its own line to Toldeo, the PC&SW
was content to let T&OC become a ward of NYC, but retained trackage rights
and a half interest. The PC&SW purchased the Tennessee Alabama & Georgia
(Chattanooga-Gadsen,AL) in 1921, upgraded it, and financed an extension
southwest to the SAL near Birmingham. Still wary of the ICC, PC&SW made no
move to consolidate the TAG. The road electrified its original line west
of Roanoke to Hinton,WV, and the east end of the TC, in the mid-1920s. The
ICC consolidation plan of 1929 shared PC&SW with both the Wabash-Seaboard
and ACL-L&N systems, but management cheerfully ignored the recommendation.
The road dieselized gradually beginning in the late 1930s, but worked off
its investment in modern steam (and electrification), officially retiring
the last steam power in 1960 (the electrics were shut down in 1959), just
in time for the modern merger era to begin.
**********

>Well David, there wouldn't be a Big 4 as their predecessors form the core
>of my CI&St.L Ry. .

  That would work :)

>There are 2 ways you can approach freelansing a major system - 1) Build
>"new" lines, or 2) Find a hole in the real line's history where you can
>buy it. I prefer to use the latter as it adds to the freelanced system's
>history.

  I did mostly the latter for my PC&SW, except in the early days since
there weren't many "spare" lines to adopt in the timeframe I wanted.

>Another problem is the ICC sticking it's nose into my business. I think I
>handle them by paying-off / black mailing law makers into passing a
>weakened, watered down ICC.

  I suspect that would open up a huge old can of worms. The original act
that set up the ICC was largely declawed by later court action in the
1890s, but was restrengthened by Congress after the turn of the century.
Weakening the ICC could lead to a circa-1905 UP-SP merger, the Northern
Securities GN-NP-CB&Q merger around the same time, and the mid-1920s
NKP-Erie-PM-HV-C&O merger (which the existence of the CI&StL might
have hastened) among others. Weakening the ICC to give CI&StL free rein
would do the same for everyone else.

David Thompson

-----Original Message-----

>From: JAMoldover@...
>I'm modeling the Mohawk & Hudson Railroad, circa 1998+.  The M&H is a
modern
>regional railroad operating from Schenectady, NY down the east side of the
>Hudson River through New York City, up to New Haven, with a potential
branch
>running from Danbury, CT across the Hudson at Poughkeepsie to a connection
>with the NS Southern Tier route.

I know these routes well from my "backstory" writing and I can clearly
picture it.

There are several ways you could expand business even more down here in the
NYCity area. With Fresh Kills set to close in a few years your road could be
rolling in dough from the trash trains; The LIRR freight contract ( now
operated by the New York & Atlantic ) as another way of expanding business;
and since you are already on the Hudson line, how about reopening the
Westside Freight line?

A.J. Kleipass owinwcorp@...
--------------------------------------------------------
How long ago a flag fell will not matter so long as there are railfans and
modelers to pick it up again and hand it off to the next generation.
--------------------------------------------------------
Metropolitian Union Terminal - http://nyow.railfan.net
Proto-Freelance Modelers SIG - http://nyow.railfan.net/pfmsig/
New Haven E-mail List - http://nyow.railfan.net/nhlist/
NYO&W E-mail List - http://nyow.railfan.net/nyowlist/
There's something for everyone at MUTT !

Hi All,

I thought I'd post the latest "history", of the railroad Vyt is modeling,
from the NYOW list so that we are all on the same page ( so to speak ). Did
everyone see the first draft of my history for the CI&St.L Ry.? If not, let
me know and I'll repost it as well.

A.J. Kleipass owinwcorp@...
--------------------------------------------------------
How long ago a flag fell will not matter so long as there are railfans and
modelers to pick it up again and hand it off to the next generation.


-----Original Message-----
From: Vyt Radzivanas <vradzivanas@...>
To: nyow@onelist.com <nyow@onelist.com>
Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 04:22
Subject: [nyow] Re: Digest Number 122


>Hi all,
>

8<------
>
>But modellers do also need a place where they can exercise their
"Modeller's
>Licence", where they can share scenarios of their flights of fantasy,
because the
>model railroad hobby has a place for wishful thinking as well as for
faitfulness to
>history.
>
>I'm planning a model of a contemporary "resurrected from the dead" (due to
a new
>permanent oil shortage) and expanded Lehigh & New England, which would
include
>portions of the Old Woman, and where the unique O&W livery and "rescued
from scrap"
>historically prototypical equipment would be honored on the routes of that
>division. In my "world as I wish it to be", I want to be as geographically
faithful
>as possible to the routes which are defined by the prototype surrounds and
the
>remaining historical  infrastructure still there and "repaired" or certain
>"signature" infrastructure lost in history (like the Lehigh Gap Bridge)
"replaced"
>with similar kind in my scenario, as well as recognizing some major changes
in land
>use along the ROW since abandonment; some prototypically historically
faithful
>locos and rolling stock "thought to have been scrapped" rescued from their
>forgotten presence scrapyards; other old and second-hand first generation
and even
>museum preserved equipment scoured from around the world to get operations
rolling
>quickly while waiting for money to roll in for ordering new equipment, and
some new
>stuff too; and finally services which in terms of traditional coal ship-out
routes
>faithfully follow historical patterns, but where the freelancing in a
modern
>context gives potential to introduce new but logical types of bridge
traffic, a
>rejuvenated passenger service tied in to national operations, etc.
>
>So, those elements of my planned layout where I want historical and
technical
>accuracy, obviously one must seek out faithful and accurate information.
But I also
>need access to a pool of ideas, suggestions, and informationon on the
modelling
>side, both in terms of available model prototypical suitability, kitbashing
>potential, and yes, even others' "what if" ideas to bounce off mine.
>
>Model railroading as a hobby, as distinguished from non-modelling
railfanning, has
>that fantasy element, and there's nothing wrong with it. I can't imagine a
>historical a technical/historical organization list being the right place
for it,
>so where? In a Modellers' Special Interest Group list, of course. Again, as
>railfans (and I like many others of us are both) we take an interest in the
reality
>of the prototype, but as modellers we are also really artists who, like the
painter
>creates his view of the world on canvas, create the world as we see it
ought to be
>using our own creative media of bechwork, track, scenery, rolling stock,
operations
>regime, some even creating a corporate marketing strategy to relate to the
rest of
>the world with timetables, annual reports, etc, because I suppose the truth
of the
>rest of reality has so forsaken us.
>
>So, while we know in fact that the NYO&W, L&NE, L&HR, etc, are fallen
flags, we
>wish it weren't so, so we create a world on our layouts where they are
alive and
>well (or maybe not so well), either in their historical perspective or our
"wishful
>thinking" perspective, and thus give "the finger" to the cruel real world.
It's our
>artistic creastive self-expression of how we see the world ought to be. And
even
>where we freelance the era, or the traffic, or another part of the
scenario, we
>still honor the prototype by anchoring the layout to accuracy of one form
or
>another, in route, in equipment, in operating practices, each in our own
personal
>unique way.
>
>My "new LNE" will keep cabeese, even in its "few years into the future"
timeframe.
>Why? Because the top brass of the company likes it that way! And as long as
the
>coal keeps rolling in the revenue, who among the shareholders dares
question the
>boss in his insistance of continued use of this anachronistic practice? On
the
>Southern, Claytor wanted the "Crescent" to keep running, so it kept running
while
>he was there, while all other CEO's were falling over each other to hand
over their
>trains to Amtrak. With some steam locos to be on the roster, the dynamic
management
>team on the "new" LNE [+ parts of NYO&W, NYS&W, etc] is definitely not
afflicted
>with a case or anachrophobia [no not the movie, check my spelling!] and
will use
>whatever "horses for courses" are at hand to get the job done. Surely we
need a
>place where it is right and proper to address these Modellers' License"
fantasies
>as well as the more rigorous side of modelling a certain prototype. That's
why a
>Modellers' Special Interest Group!
>
>OK, OK, I know the NYO&W MSIG is "disbanded". But this list is the heir to
that
>"calling" to address modelling issues with respect to the NYO&W. So, it is
only
>right and proper it kep its modelling focus. And maybe the MSIG itself
ought to
>eventually be revived too, once everyone are on good terms again. I never
saw the
>two organizations as rivals, but as complementary, each answering a
different
>"calling" even though serving the same mistress (the Old Woman!).
>
>May she live in peace in us all!
>
>Vyt
>
>

-----Original Message-----

>From: James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
> Hmmm, I would think that a more likely adversary might be the Big Four
>(and maybe LS&MS and the original Nickel Plate), in the late 1800s anyway.
>You'd still manage to tick off the Vanderbilt interests, especially by
>snatching up the West Shore (and what would that mean for the fate of the
>South Pennsylvania?).


Well David, there wouldn't be a Big 4 as their predecessors form the core of
my CI&St.L Ry. . There are 2 ways you can approach freelansing a major
system - 1) Build "new" lines, or 2) Find a hole in the real line's history
where you can buy it. I prefer to use the latter as it adds to the
freelanced system's history.

As it stands now, the NYCentral will be losing the West Shore, Big 4, RW&O,
Putnam div., and "Auburn Road" line. I've also got my eye on ERIE's "NJ
commuter" lines ( NNJ, NJNY, NYGL, NYSW ). I haven't thought about the South
Penn, but ..........  :o)

How about we say that JP Morgan's deal to trade ownership of the West Shore
and South Penn involved the NYC and PRR selling their stock to a third party
who would then finish the trade by selling the SP to PRR and WS to NYC, only
this third party was playing by his own game plan and screwed Morgan, et.al.
by keeping both roads for himself  >:o)   They say that the stress from
these dealings is what killed William Vanderbilt, this history rewrite would
fully support that! <vbj>

Given the chance, I could come up with valid reasons for owning every last
railroad if I let myself. I've tried to keep the basic system centered on
Indianapolis with each of the 10 lines extending from there in a,
figurative, straight line to an endpoint. So far I have the Cleveland line
going thru Buffalo to Selkirk where it splits to Boston and NYCity, which
leaves 9 to go :o\      Some, like the Michigian City line, have place to
extend to. While others, like the St. Louis and Cincinnati lines, offer too
many "dangers" of over reaching. In 1999 a BorgRail system is common, but to
reach such a size by 1900 or even 1939 is too_much-too_soon ... even for my
tastes!

Another problem is the ICC sticking it's nose into my business. I think I
handle them by paying-off / black mailing law makers into passing a
weakened, watered down ICC.

A.J. Kleipass owinwcorp@...
--------------------------------------------------------
How long ago a flag fell will not matter so long as there are railfans and
modelers to pick it up again and hand it off to the next generation.
--------------------------------------------------------
Metropolitian Union Terminal - http://nyow.railfan.net
Proto-Freelance Modelers SIG - http://nyow.railfan.net/pfmsig/
New Haven E-mail List - http://nyow.railfan.net/nhlist/
NYO&W E-mail List - http://nyow.railfan.net/nyowlist/
There's something for everyone at MUTT !

>I'm still around 1880-1900 in the planning of the "back story" or history
>of the CISL, but I see it as running head to head with the Vanderbilt's
>NYC&HR, with CISL being the winner ( did you have any doubts <g> ). This
>would lead to a NYC merger with the PRR earlier than 1968 (maybe the late
>1930s or just after WWII) and so a new and longer history of Penn Central.

  Hmmm, I would think that a more likely adversary might be the Big Four
(and maybe LS&MS and the original Nickel Plate), in the late 1800s anyway.
You'd still manage to tick off the Vanderbilt interests, especially by
snatching up the West Shore (and what would that mean for the fate of the
South Pennsylvania?).

David Thompson

I guess it's my turn. This is the first part of three (and the least
complicated).

[Note- an "f" in parentheses denotes a freelance predecessor]

David Thompson
**********
  The Portsmouth Charleston & South Western got its start as the
grandiosely-named Atlantic Ohio & Pacific Rail Road(f) (chartered in 1859
although construction did not begin until 1874), completing a line from
Charleston,WV east to Petersburg,VA by 1878. That line was pushed east
to Portsmouth in 1881 to provide a better outlet for the coal fields
that were just beginning to be developed. At the end of that year, the
road was reorganized as the Portsmouth & Charleston RR(f) to get out from
under some restrictions in the original charter.

  The P&C financed the construction of the Roanoke Virginia & Tennessee
RR(f) from Roanoke,VA on the P&C to Knoxville,KY, completed in 1889. In
1891 the P&C leased the Roanoke & Danville RR (f,1889-90; Roanoke to
Danville,VA) and the Lynchburg & Durham RR (1887-90; Lynchburg,VA to
Durham,NC). Three years later the P&C leased the Pittsburg & South
Western RR (f,1887-91), which was built to funnel coal from the P&C at
Charleston north to Pittsburg,PA. In 1894, all the leased lines were
purchased outright and the combined system was named the Portsmouth
Charleston & South Western Railway.
**********

Just a few words to introduce myself...
My name is Joshua Moldover.  I've been a model railroader and railfan for
about 25 years, starting with Lionel and moving to HO about 15 years ago.
I'm modeling the Mohawk & Hudson Railroad, circa 1998+.  The M&H is a modern
regional railroad operating from Schenectady, NY down the east side of the
Hudson River through New York City, up to New Haven, with a potential branch
running from Danbury, CT across the Hudson at Poughkeepsie to a connection
with the NS Southern Tier route.  Motive power consists primarily of
medium-power EMD and GE locomotives (GP38/-2, B23-7, etc.), along with a
historic collection under the sponsorship of the New York State Railroad
Museum in Schenectady.  (Factual note - the museum doesn't really exist - I
just wanted an excuse to run steam and early diesel power)

"History" of the M&H:

In 1993, as part of line rationalization, Conrail sold off the portion of
track between Albany and Schenectady, NY that was used by Amtrak, along with
the Troy industrial track.  The line was purchased by a "reborn" shortline
that took its name from the original railroad operating the route.  In 1999,
as part of the NS-CSX-CR split, the M&H was given an opportunity to expand.
With CSX's well-known dislke for mixed passenger and freight operations, the
M&H offered to take over operations on the Hudson line as well as freight
operations in the NYC area.  CSX was only too glad to go along, and thus was
born the "expanded" M&H.

Approximate M&H route map (not to scale) (pardon the bad ASCII art)
						 Troy  |
						       |
Schen. 		 Alb.  |
--------------------+
						       |
						       |
Maybrook 		      |Pough.         Danbury
------------------==+----------------------
						 Beacon|/
						       |
						       |
						       |
						       |       New Haven
						 NYC   |--------------

Based on what I've heard so far, I'm not the only one modeling this section
of country - I'm certainly willing to set up some additional interchanges
with other lines :-) - maybe we can even end up swapping equipment and/or
decals for interline running!

FWIW,  (shameless plug warning!) for anyone who is interested in designing a
paint scheme for their prototype/freelanced line, check out my website, the
Railroad Paint Shop, located at http://paintshop.railfan.net for some useful
tools...

Joshua Moldover

Hi All,

I thought this might be a good time for each of you to introduce yourselves
and tell us what your modeling interests are.

I'm AJ Kleipass coming to you live from the GREAT city of Brooklyn, NY.
While the O&W is my first love my modeling interests have shifted to bigger
things, namely the Cleveland, Indianapolis & St. Louis Railway.

Don't go looking for the CI&St.L Ry. on any railroad map as it never
existed, at least not by that name. The CISL is a work in progress but the
major parts have fallen into place. Indianapolis serves as it's HQ and major
operating hub with 10 lines radiating out to Chicago, Michigian City,
St.Louis, Kansas City, Peoria, Cairo, Cincinnati, Springfield (OH),
Louisville, and Cleveland. The Cleveland line continues on thru Buffalo to
New York via the West Shore Ry.

At Albany, NY the route splits in three with the freight main heading south
down the west shore of the Hudson River, the passenger main going down the
east side of the river ( this is a extended New York & Northern, aka the
NYC's Putnam division and runs between the Central's Hudson and Harlem
divisions ). The third route is the B&M's Fitchburg road to Boston.

I plan on "adopting" parts of several other railroads into the CISL as
well - ICG, CNW, ERIE, PRR, B&M, MEC, NH, UP, SP, MILW, SOO, .......

I'm still around 1880-1900 in the planning of the "back story" or history of
the CISL, but I see it as running head to head with the Vanderbilt's NYC&HR,
with CISL being the winner ( did you have any doubts <g> ). This would lead
to a NYC merger with the PRR earlier than 1968 (maybe the late 1930s or just
after WWII ) and so a new and longer history of Penn Central.

I've made up my mind not to let something as rock solid as history get in my
way of having fun with the CISL, after all that is what this hobby is all
about :o)

More to come ...

A.J. Kleipass owinwcorp@...
--------------------------------------------------------
How long ago a flag fell will not matter so long as there are railfans and
modelers to pick it up again and hand it off to the next generation.
--------------------------------------------------------
Metropolitian Union Terminal - http://nyow.railfan.net
Proto-Freelance Modelers SIG - http://nyow.railfan.net/pfmsig/
New Haven E-mail List - http://nyow.railfan.net/nhlist/
NYO&W E-mail List - http://nyow.railfan.net/nyowlist/
There's something for everyone at MUTT !

Hi Vyt,

Sorry for being so quiet of late. I'm doing better, went to a new doctor
last Sat. who started me on different meds for my diabetes. So far the
Glucophage is working ( knock wood ).

I've been working with Richard Palmer on a major project on the Auburn
Branch for my website; and I've been making some headway on the design and
back story for my CI&St.L Ry.

A.J. Kleipass owinwcorp@...
--------------------------------------------------------
How long ago a flag fell will not matter so long as there are railfans and
modelers to pick it up again and hand it off to the next generation.
--------------------------------------------------------
Metropolitian Union Terminal - http://nyow.railfan.net
Proto-Freelance Modelers SIG - http://nyow.railfan.net/pfmsig/
New Haven E-mail List - http://nyow.railfan.net/nhlist/
NYO&W E-mail List - http://nyow.railfan.net/nyowlist/
There's something for everyone at MUTT !

Hi AJ,

Just wanted to let you and others on this list know that I've suggested joining
to
Joshua Moldover who had a query about the Poughkeepsie Bridge on the
Railroad.net
New York Railfan list, in relation to inclusion of the Bridge in his 1990's
planned
scenario. I mentioned to him that in view of the role of the bridge in my
planned
scenario for the L & NE, I'd like to continue the discusion here. I gave him the
pfmsig list's address and I hope we'll be hearing from him shortly.

How's things, hope they've settled down a bit and you're all feeling ok.

Sincerely,
Vyt

Hi All,

This morning ( Sunday, 4-24-99 ) I added something to
the O&W section of my website ( http://nyow.railfan.net/nyow/home.html )
that you might find interesting.

It's a map of the New York & Oswego Midland Railroad dated January 1, 1869.

The map is a bit large at 1.16 mb total split over 15 images, but it's
highly detailed. There are also a smaller version of the map, a sample of
the larger version ( to give you an idea of the detail ), and you can also
chose to download a zip file of the large map's images and html page for
off-line viewing.

I hope you find this an interesting, if not useful, bit of history.

A.J. Kleipass owinwcorp@...
--------------------------------------------------------
How long ago a flag fell will not matter so long as there are railfans and
modelers to pick it up again and hand it off to the next generation.

test 2

A.J. Kleipass owinwcorp@...
--------------------------------------------------------
How long ago a flag fell will not matter so long as there are railfans and
modelers to pick it up again and hand it off to the next generation.

this is a test

A.J. Kleipass owinwcorp@...
--------------------------------------------------------
How long ago a flag fell will not matter so long as there are railfans and
modelers to pick it up again and hand it off to the next generation.