Hi Folks,
	 Any one got an idea about this.

		 Rich

-------- Original Message --------
Subject:  Ismelia
Date:  Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:56:09 +0100
From:  john stevens <jestevens@***>
To:  <webmaster@...>



Hi there,
I came across your website while searching for information on a plant
name - without success.  It made me wonder if you might be able to help
or direct me in the right direction. I am trying to find the meaning of
the generic name _Ismelia_ as seen in /Ismelia carinata./
Anything at all will be very much appreciated,
                 Yours sincerely,
                       John Stevens


--
Plants for a Future: 7000 useful plants
Web:   http://www.pfaf.org/ same as http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/
Post:  1 Lerryn View, Lerryn, Lostwithiel, Cornwall, PL22 0QJ
Tel:  01208 872 963 / 0845 458 4719
Email: webmaster@...
PFAF electronic mailing list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf

This is a forwarded message
From: David Blume <farmerdave@...>
Date: Wednesday, August 11, 2004, 9:58:00 PM
Subject: Permaculture Course in Nevada City: 9/11-9/26

=================Original message text===============

Hello Friends, farmers, permies, and alternative energy colleagues!

As many of you may know, I have been working hard since 1993 heading up
the International Institute for Ecological Agriculture (IIEA), a
non-profit based in Aptos, California. Our two main projects continue to
be offering Permaculture Design Certification courses and finishing our
book on ethanol as an alternative to oil for transportation titled,
Alcohol Can Be A Gas!. For the next year, we will be focusing most of
our attention on finishing Alcohol Can Be A Gas! and on the subsequent
book tour scheduled for late 2005.

     This year's permaculture design course is being operated as a
benefit for the Alcohol Can Be A Gas! Project.  I'd like to ask your
help in getting the word out about this course.   We are encouraging
folks to take advantage of the upcoming Permaculture Design
Certification Course being held in Nevada City, CA from September 11-26,
2004.  We will be designing a 200+ acre site, which currently houses a
residential Quaker high school.  We plan on designing the site for food,
energy and income self-sufficiency, along with creating a biological
endowment fund to stabilize the economic base of the school. So if you
have been considering taking a Permaculture Design Course yourself you
may want to take this upcoming course since next year's schedule is
uncertain at this time as we work on book tour commitments.

     This course is a great opportunity to learn every facet of
Permaculture and ecological agriculture from the best in the field.
Whether you want to add Permaculture skills to your already existing
landscaping, farming, ranching, environmental, teaching or building
business, start a Permaculture business, help communities to feed
themselves efficiently, earn a decent income on your own land or just
garden and live this lifestyle in your own backyard, this class promises
to be life-changing!  This course is rich enough in material for
professionals, yet presented in an easily comprehended format for the
lay student.

This course includes a one-day intensive workshop on Livestock in
Permaculture Design on September 18 taught by Joel Salatin, an
ecological farming pioneer.  You may remember Joel Salatin as the
keynote speaker of the Ecological Farming Conference at Asilomar this
past winter. A few of our many other excellent course leaders are Bob
Theis (international expert on Green Building), Ernest Callenbach
(author of Ecotopia), Larry Korn (editor of the One Straw Revolution)
and Jeffrey Smith, author of Seeds of Deception.

I would like to share with folks that we welcome work trade and other
creative trades to cover the course tuition. If you are interested in
this amazing permaculture opportunity and would like to do work trade,
we are open to creative suggestions (for example, massage for the course
instructors).  Please don't hesitate to contact us to discuss this
option.  We also are offering  a limited number of two for one deals on
tuition (the second person will still be responsible for their food and
lodging.)

We only have a tiny advertising budget for this course and we could
really use your help in getting the word out.  I have included an email
announcement below.  Feel free to cut and paste this into your own email
and send it to those on your list you think ought to see it.  Also, if
you would be interested in posting flyers around your community to aid
in getting the word out about this amazing opportunity, let us know and
we will send them out to you as soon as possible.  The flyer is also
available for download on our website at:
http://www.permaculture.com/newsletter/woolmanflyer.pdf.  We would also
be happy to send a hard copy brochure about the courses to anyone you
think might be interested.  Simply contact us with an address. Thanks in
advance for any help you can extend us in getting the word out about
this great course opportunity.  I look forward to bringing you news of
the upcoming book tour in the next year.

If you are interested in learning more about our organization and the
courses, check our website at: www.permaculture.com.


For the Earth,
David Blume
Director- International Institute for Ecological Agriculture.

P.S. You can catch me speaking on Alcohol Fuel at SolFest in Hopland
this year on Saturday, August 21st at 4 pm.  I also am doing an
introduction to Permaculture course in Nevada City on August 15th at 4
pm at the main library.



PERMACULTURE DESIGN CERTIFICATION COURSE
Nevada City, California --  9/11-9/26

Get your Permaculture Certification...it will change your life!

What:  15-Day Permaculture Design Certification Course: You will learn
all aspects of Permaculture and use these skills to design a 200+ acre
site for food, energy and income self-sufficiency.

When:  September 11-26, 2004

Where:  Sierra Friends Center, Nevada City, California

Why:  You will learn all aspects of Permaculture and receive your
Permaculture Certification. It will can add value to your business, your
life, your community. Taking this course will increase your skills,
enhance your knowledge, and teach you the skills to live sustainably!

How: Payment of $1477, Save $150-call now. Several Early Bird slots
available. Work trade and other creative trades can help to cover the
course tuition (Please contact us to discuss these options). Course fee
includes a special One-Day Livestock Seminar on Sept. 18th (available to
be taken separately as well), three organic meals a day, and on-site
camping.

Who: Offered by International Institute of Ecological Agriculture, in
conjunction with the Sierra Friends Center. Contact us (IIEA) at
831-688-0338, 1-888-PERMACULTURE (888-737-6228), or visit our website at
http://www.permaculture.com.  The link directly to the page with the
course information is:
http://www.permaculture.com/permaculture/courses/woolman.htm.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links






===8<===========End of original message text===========

This is a forwarded message
From: Bill Meacham <bmeacham@...>
Date: Friday, August 06, 2004, 2:30:52 AM
Subject: Organic Farm for Lease

=================Original message text===============


ORGANIC FARM FOR LEASE

Lease a 100-acre organic farm for $1 per year!  Yes, that's $1 per
year, but only for an experienced organic farmer to work this land.
The land is on an alluvial plain of the Little Blanco River on RR 32,
about eight miles southeast of Blanco, Texas, USA.  It has two wells
on it, and a three-bedroom house.  The land is currently fallow, and
we would like to see it used for a good purpose.  To find out more,
please contact Sid Dubose at +1 (512) 288-0638.

Please feel free to forward this to interested persons or email lists.






To Post a message, send it to:   ziraat@eGroups.com
To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: ziraat-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links






===8<===========End of original message text===========

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/foodprogramme.shtml

Sunday 12:30-13:00
Rpt: Monday 16:00-16:30
& listen online

In this week's programme Sheila Dillon discovers a world where trees are the
main source of food and are integral to the way we produce livestock and
other crops. Ancient civilisations and our pagan ancestors used to worship
trees, but for centuries now, we've been busy cutting them down.


We tend to think of food from trees as the add ons to our diet, snacks such
as nuts and apples. The staples come from fields of wheat, rich pastures
with sheep and cattle and sheds full of chickens and pigs. But trees are not
only bearers of nuts and fruit, they could be the basis of all food
production. Science writer Colin Tudge explains what might have happened if
we had developed an agriculture based on trees and Roland Bonney of the Food
Animal Initiative in Oxfordshire describes their project of combining trees
with chickens.


Professor Bob Orskov of the Macauley Institute in Aberdeen tells us about
his global work combining livestock with trees. He says it's not just better
for the planet, it's also better for the trees and the animals.


Deforestation is a major problem that has been worrying many over the last
few decades. Brazil is often the country that springs to mind. Professor
Carolyn Proenca from the University of Brasilia tells us about a project to
protect native trees and to encourage communities to make commercial use of
the fruit and oils from the trees, instead of cutting them down to plant
other crops.


There are many products that could be made from trees native to the British
Isles and chef Gerard Baker taps his Silver Birch to make Birch Sap wine,
and Sheila visits a project in Yorkshire where wheat is being grown in
alleys between Poplar trees. Dr David Pilbeam of the University of Leeds
tells us the results of the experiment so far.


Taking Part:

Colin Tudge
Centre for Philosophy of Natural and Social Science (CPNSS)
Lakatos Building
London School of Economics
Houghton Street
London WC2A 2AE
T: +44 (0)20 7955 7573
F: +44 (0)20 7955 6869
PHILCENT@...
http://www.lse.ac.uk/Depts/cpnss/

Roland Bonney
Food Animal Initiative
The Field Station
Wytham
Oxford
OX2 8QJ
T: +44 (0) 1865 790880
enquiries@...
http://www.faifarms.co.uk/


Professor Bob Orskov
Macaulay Land Use Research Institute
Craigiebuckler
Aberdeen
AB15 8QH
UK
T: +44 (0) 1224 498200
F: +44 (0) 1224 311556
enquiries@...
http://www.mluri.sari.ac.uk/


Professor Carolyn Proenca
University of Brasilia


Gerard Baker
Holly Dene
South End
Roos
Near Hull
East Riding of Yorkshire
HU12 0HJ
gerardbaker@...
http://www.gerardbaker.com/


David Pilbeam
University of Leeds
Leeds
LS2 9JT
UK
T: +44 (0) 113 244 3923
F: +44 (0) 113 243 1751


BBCi Food website
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/

Nominations are now welcome for the BBC Radio Food & Farming Awards 2004.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/foodawards2004.shtml

Many thanks for the heads-up!  Sheila Dillon really does a great job
on The Food Programme ... she's very alert to issues outside
the 'accepted mainstream'.

By the way, I'm really enjoying "The Earth Care Manual" and "Plant
Based Nutrition and Health" at the moment...

Naturewise will be running a full permaculture design course in North London
over 7 weekends from October 2004 to Jan 2005.

For details see
http://www.gb0063551.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/naturewise/poster.htm

Cheers Graham


---
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Here's my review of Patrick's new book, as submitted to 'Growing Green' (the
magazine of the Vegan organic Network- hence the emphasis on the vegan or
otherwise aspects of this work..)

TITLE: THE EARTH CARE MANUAL
A Permaculture Handbook For Britain
& Other Temperate Countries

AUTHOR: Patrick Whitefield

PRICE: £34.95 + p&p
PUBLISHER: Permanent Publications, The Sustainability Centre, East Meon,
Hampshire GU32 1HR, UK
ISBN: 1 85623 021 X
PAGES: 480pp

ILLUSTRATIONS: 206 black and white photos, 43 colour photos, 145 line
diagrams & numerous tables.

Some critics have said that permaculture is all very well and good for
tropical or desert conditions, but isn't suitable for a cool temperate
country such as the UK. Indeed, many of the major permaculture texts
published up until now have been Australian in origin and thus contained
large sections that have been at best irrelevant to us Brits. At worse they
have led to disillusionment when advice intended for climates far more hot
or humid than ours has been slavishly followed and resulted in failure.
However, all that is set to change with the publication of The Earth Care
Manual, the first fully comprehensive permaculture designers handbook
specifically written for British conditions.

And what a phenomenal work it is… Seven years in the making, experienced
permaculturalist Patrick Whitefield has assembled a truly encyclopaedic work
covering virtually every aspect of the physical design of the world around
us.
He leads in with two chapters defining permaculture and it's ethics
(earthcare, peoplecare, fairshares) and principles before looking in depth
at the elements of soil, water, microclimate, energy and materials. The
second part of the book focuses on application- how working with nature can
provide all of our food, shelter and comfort needs in order to live
abundantly and sustainably. In his very readable yet highly knowledgeable
style he covers gardens (everything from the window box and conservatory up
to allotments and community gardens), buildings, woodland, orchards, farms,
local food links (box schemes, food co-ops, CSA, farmers markets, etc) and
biodiversity. Using copious amounts of facts, figures, tables, diagrams,
photos and case studies Whitefield illustrates solutions for every situation
whether urban or rural, looking at mulching, rainwater harvesting,
windbreaks, perennial vegetables, pond construction, biotecture, forest
gardening, coppicing and wildlife gardening to name but a few examples. The
last section of the book is devoted to design skills, providing a step by
step guide to actually putting all this wonderful knowledge together in our
own homes, gardens and landscapes.

One chapter I found pertinent was that on farming and food links. Whitefield
isn't vegan himself, but respects the vegan point of view. He acknowledges
the inefficiency of the animal-based diet, pointing out that only around 10%
of the food consumed by farm animals is available as edible meat when they
are killed. He also highlights the untenability of the vegetarian stance,
ie, that it is OK to eat milk and eggs but not meat: "What happens to the
bull calf or male chick which cannot be used for milk or egg production, or
the cow or hen when they are too old to produce an economic yield? Of
course, they are fattened up, killed and eaten. It's impossible to eat
animal products without contributing to the death of animals"… He does go on
to look at the keeping of livestock such as pigs or poultry within
permaculture systems, but this is not a large part of the book and can
easily be skipped by the vegan-organic reader. Or you could actually read
it: I found it very interesting, and it clarified that animal husbandry
within a permaculture context is a million light years away from the
industrialised factory pharms that currently supply the sterile little
packages on the supermarket shelves. Whitefield's own position is "What
matters to me is how much the animal has suffered… Purely from an animal
welfare point of view I'd rather eat an organic steak than drink a pint of
conventional milk". He also looks at green manure based stockless systems,
acknowledging the work of Elm Farm (although unfortunately doesn't mention
VON), and explores the possibilities of leaf curd as a protein source for
vegans that avoids importing pulses.

Also of particular interest to Growing Green readers will be the section on
fruit and nuts. Along with vegan pioneer Kathleen Jannaway, Whitefield
recognises that although nuts are not widely grown in the UK at the present
time, they have enormous potential as a staple food crop; "…there's no
reason why tree crops should not replace annual field crops as our main food
source. That would revolutionise not just our agriculture but our landscape
too. Gone would be the open fields of cereals and grass replaced by orchards
and edible woodlands, with perhaps as many clearings as we now have woods.
Our landscape would cease to be an imitation of the prairie or steppe, and
become an imitation of what it was before we turned it upside down:
woodland". A vision for the future maybe, but one backed up here with
cutting edge research and practical details on pioneering crops such as
hazels, walnuts, chestnuts as well as acorns (Whitefield advocates selective
breeding for edibility), beech, pine and monkey nuts. For my money the book
is worth the admission price for this chapter alone.

Where the book is less strong is in the area of what in permaculture circles
are sometimes called the 'invisible structures'. In other words, the fabric
of social interactions and human connections that will need to be redesigned
if we are to create truly sustainable future societies. Whitefield does
acknowledge that economics (the 'fairshares' ethic of permaculture) is not
his forte, instead directing readers to Richard Douthwaite's excellent
'Short Circuit'. However, despite some valuable acknowledgement of the
importance of developing real 'listening skills' and touching on inclusive
community development techniques such as 'Planning For Real', I would also
liked to have seen a section going into some more depth regarding
'peoplecare'- or how we are to look after both ourselves and each other
properly. Producing sustainable food, water, medicines, buildings, forests
and landscapes is only half of the battle for survival in the new millenium.
To my mind the real challenge for the 21st century permaculture movement is
how to create the 'social glues' that are needed to effectively bind
together our communities. Not just the intentional communities of
eco-villages and progressive land share projects, but also retro-fitting the
towns, cities and rural settlements that most of us inhabit today either
through choice or circumstance. But I'm probably quibbling- the title of
this book is after all the 'Earth Care Manual', and maybe as time goes on we
will see equally mature works addressing these other aspects of permaculture
design. In fact I should be grateful, for if this were any bigger than it
already is it would only cause my bookshelf to collapse…

Graham Burnett August 2004


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 19/08/2004

Hi, I ran across your Yahoo Group on-line looking for information on
Zostera marina (eelgrass).  I found the information I needed but
still can't find a dictionary to help me pronounce Zostera marina.
Can anyone help me so I don't sound like a fool when I discuss this
in an upcoming meeting?  JIM

Hi, I live in the PNW and am trying to find any reference to use of
wild ginger (asarum caudatum) leaves.  I know the root is edible.
Are there any updates on the toxicity of the leaves?  I believe that
it is currently listed as having no reports of toxicity, but that's
not exactly reassuring, and I know that other members of the family
do have toxic leaves.  Does anyone have any current info or know
someone who might?  Thank you!  --sara

Is it possible that this is a virus-generated message???
Regards, Hilary Robinson


>From: "Treaclemine" <treaclemine@...>
>Reply-To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
>To: "Pfaf" <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [pfaf] Re:
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:01:03 -0300
>
><< fmvdqhrowc.bmp >>
><< MP3.zip >>

This looks like a book that might be worth investing in-
http://agroforestry.net/overstory/ovbook.html#Anchor-If-56765

Anyone in the UK interested in (or already???) distributing?

Graham


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 19/08/2004

Hilary Robinson wrote:
> Is it possible that this is a virus-generated message???
> Regards, Hilary Robinson
>
>
>
>>From: "Treaclemine" <treaclemine@...>
>>Reply-To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
>>To: "Pfaf" <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
>>Subject: [pfaf] Re:
>>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:01:03 -0300
>>
>><< fmvdqhrowc.bmp >>
>><< MP3.zip >>
>
Yes indeed it was. I mistakenly approved it as
I quickly looked at the email addess who is someone we know well. I
suspect the email address was probably facked.

Hope no one downloaded the attachment.

While on the subject of spam has anyone noticed a big increase in spam
after they joined the list? I've had one report of this happening and
don't know if its a general problem?

	 All the best

		 Rich
--
Plants for a Future: 7000 useful plants
Web:   http://www.pfaf.org/ same as http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/
Post:  1 Lerryn View, Lerryn, Lostwithiel, Cornwall, PL22 0QJ
Tel:  01208 872 963 / 0845 458 4719
Email: webmaster@...
PFAF electronic mailing list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf

Dear all,

In the developing permaculture info project where we are trying to
create a knowledge base for permaculture information
see the mailing list at
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permacultureinfo
for more info.

As part of the development of that we have been working on the structure
of a plant database and how to represent plants and their
characteristics systematically.

I've been reading a book on XML topic maps which describes a way of
constructing diagrams of related concepts (a topic map is very like a
touchgraph graph). In one of the examples they devise a hierarchy of
plants where "an oak tree is a type of tree". At first sight this seems
a fairly uncontroversial statement.

But think for a moment how this matches with the botanical plant
hierarchy. Trees are liberally dispersed over a wide range of families
from Tree Ferns to Conifers and Ginkgos to Monocots (Yucca) and
liberally dispersed among the dicots. However trees have a patchy
coverage with some families having a wide range of trees and non-trees.

The pea family (Leguminosae) is a particularly interesting example which
has 69 annuals (eg peas), 133 perennials (clover), 96 shrubs (gorse) and
39 trees (acacia) mentioned in the Plants For A Future database.
How come a family can have woody plants like gorse and acacia
and other like peas and clover which are very far from treeness?

So it seems that treeness does not really tie well with the typical
plant systematics. Which leeds to a question "what makes a tree a tree?"
Is there a tree gene? How come some plants switch it on and other plants
don't?

Treeness is a very different sort of thing to "has a backbone"
a feature which is is inherited though a large part of the animal
kingdom, there was some root animal which had a backbone and all its
descendants: fishes, amphibians, reptiles, birds, mammals all share this
property. Flowering plants also fit well with the botanical systematics,
all flowering plants (grasses, lilies, orchids, brasicas, roses, oaks
willows, the pea family, ...) belong to the grouping Angiosperm a well
define section of the plant kingdom.

For trees there may have been some very ancient plant which was a tree
(probably a tree fern). But it's descendants are not all trees, some are
some are not. (Its possible that all its descendants may share some deeper
   characteristic such as a particular cell structure).

Perhaps treeness is more akin to having an eye. This is a property which
has developed independently several times through history, vertebra have
them, insects have them, squid have them, but none of these share a
common root which had an eye, they all developed independently (I
believe its developed twelve different times).

Or is it more like a true habit like swims in water? Fish do, dolphins
do it, water snakes do it. All inhabit the same ecological niche
but have arrived at different ways to fill the niche.

I don't think the independent evolution idea fits well for trees though.
If you compare the structure of an oak tree
and a pine tree they are very similar in terms of cell structure.
There does seem to be a stronger link between the two than just
the fact that they inhabit a similar ecological niche. Woody growth
is a strong shared characteristic of all trees.

So you could take the radical proposition that all plants (from tree
ferns onwards) are really trees, just that they have not decided to
become woody and branch at the base. Or more scientifically their might
be a "tree gene" shared by a good part of the plant kingdom, but certain
plants decide to switch this gene on and others don't.

So in conclusion the best answer might be that the concept of a tree is
a really complicated thing it means
	 perennial
	 woody
	 branches higher up
	 inhabits a particular ecological niche (keep leaves high up).
In other words a tree is not an atomic thing, unlike flowering plant
And should not form the base of any serious hierarchy of plant. The
concept of a tree should be treated with caution.

	 ttfn

		 Rich

Object oriented programmers note: A tree is a poor candidate for a base
class for trees. Perhaps better though of as an interface which certain
plants can implement. Or maybe don't use the concept tree at all, stick
to the constituent parts, such a woody, perennial, not branching at base
   and fits a particular ecological niche.

--
Plants for a Future: 7000 useful plants
Web:   http://www.pfaf.org/ same as http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/
Post:  1 Lerryn View, Lerryn, Lostwithiel, Cornwall, PL22 0QJ
Tel:  01208 872 963 / 0845 458 4719
Email: webmaster@...
PFAF electronic mailing list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf

I'm currently investigating the possibility of doing a permaculture design
course, but from what I have found out so far,none of the courses
offered,despite often costing  a great deal of money.Have No statutory
educational and or governmental body formal recognition in the European
Union.So from what I can gather so far, any Tom, Dick or Harriot,can claim
to set up a permaculture design course offering Diplomas etc which in
reality will be worthless bits of pretty computerised paper recognized by no
one but the person running the course.So the question begs an answer are we
all being fleeced and would we be all better off just studying and putting
into practise the works of Bill Mollison's Permaculture A Designers Manual?
Other readers of this forum are encouraged to offer their opinions.

--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "the_green_garden"
<the_green_garden@h...> wrote:
> I'm currently investigating the possibility of doing a
permaculture design
> course, but from what I have found out so far,none of the courses
> offered,despite often costing  a great deal of money.Have No
statutory
> educational and or governmental body formal recognition in the
European
> Union.So from what I can gather so far, any Tom, Dick or
Harriot,can claim
> to set up a permaculture design course offering Diplomas etc which
in
> reality will be worthless bits of pretty computerised paper
recognized by no
> one but the person running the course.So the question begs an
answer are we
> all being fleeced and would we be all better off just studying and
putting
> into practise the works of Bill Mollison's Permaculture A
Designers Manual?
> Other readers of this forum are encouraged to offer their opinions.

Depends how much value you place on the 'formal' education system.
I've been on 'approved' mainstream courses that have been tedious,
boring, unimaginative and have no interest whatsoever in developing
the participants' creativity. You get a little piece of paper at the
end of it, but personally my Permaculture Design Course certificate
is one of the most valuable qualifications I have, even though that
in itself will never get me a job. On the other hand the skills,
insights, practical experiences, self-development, etc I gained from
the course and my ongoing work in and with permaculture are of
infinite help in developing sustainable and self-reliant futures for
myself, my planet and the communities I work with. Mr Blair and his
cronies in the 'education' establishemnt may not be able to measure
permaculture with his targets and goals, but a PC Design course is
about something much more exciting than his small vision, and
personally I hope that permaculture will always remain outside of
the mainstream with it's inspectors and league tables.

Yes any 'Tom Dick & Harry' can set up a course and call it
a 'permaculture design course', but one of the core foundations of
Permaculture is that it is about being ethical, thus for such a
course to be recognised by the Permaculture Association it must be
led by teachers who have themselves done a design course, and by at
least one person who has the diploma in permaculture. The PC
Association is doing ongoing work in accrediting PC design courses,
including by the Open College Network but it's early  days, so watch
this space on that one. For more info see
http://www.permaculture.org.uk/pcasite/mm.asp?mmfile=educationpcdc

All the design courses that I know that are running or coming up
(I'm talking about in the UK here) are being run by committed,
knowledgable and experienced people, and if 'fleecing' people is the
intention I can think of easier scams than giving up 2 weeks of time
and energy (not including pre-course prepatation, creating
publicity, etc) for a finacial gain that usually works out at far
less than the minimum wage. I know that we are all working bloody
hard on preparing the next Naturewise Design course despite the fact
that we are pretty unlikely to make any money at all from it, so
forgive me if I sound pissed off by your implication that I'm out to
rip people off.

Yes you can go away and read all the books about permaculture, but
this doesn't compare with the 'immersion' that comes from the
course, the value of working with others, building community,
sharing experiences, working out solutions togther.

Cheers Graham www.spiralseed.co.uk

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There is 1 message in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Permaculture Design Courses are we being fleeced?
From: "the_green_garden"


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:58:54 +0100
From: "the_green_garden"
Subject: Permaculture Design Courses are we being fleeced?

I'm currently investigating the possibility of doing a permaculture design
course, but from what I have found out so far,none of the courses
offered,despite often costing a great deal of money.Have No statutory
educational and or governmental body formal recognition in the European
Union.So from what I can gather so far, any Tom, Dick or Harriot,can claim
to set up a permaculture design course offering Diplomas etc which in
reality will be worthless bits of pretty computerised paper recognized by no
one but the person running the course.So the question begs an answer are we
all being fleeced and would we be all better off just studying and putting
into practise the works of Bill Mollison's Permaculture A Designers Manual?
Other readers of this forum are encouraged to offer their opinions.


________________________________________________________________________
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Sara Watson wrote:
> Hi, Richard.
>
> I'm new to the group and just read your email and agree that perhaps
> "treeness" is not the best basis for attributes; however, you have a
> wide array of users, from those who know the correct botanical
> terminology to some sloppy endusers, like myself, who still rely on
> some very basic and general characteristics as a means of
> researching--so I think for me, searching for "tree" in addition to
> other characteristics like deciduous or environ, is as valuable as say
> Fabaceae etc.  And if the database is to be looked at as a means of
> educating the public, it seems important to include the lowest common
> denominator in addition to very specific informatin for the
> well-informed.
>
> Is the database so limited that it wouldn't provide for mutiple
> attributes?  I'll have to check it out.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sara W. Burgess
>

Hi Sara,
	 Good to hear from you. Yes I quite agree that we should
keep "tree" in the the database, for all the reasons you discussed.

The point of the post was really a bunch of random thoughs about what
the concept of tree means and some musings over quite how patchy the
occurences of trees are in plant family tree, a fact that I find rather
curious.

No need to worry!

	 Rich
--
Plants for a Future: 7000 useful plants
Web:   http://www.pfaf.org/ same as http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/
Post:  1 Lerryn View, Lerryn, Lostwithiel, Cornwall, PL22 0QJ
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hi
degrees certificates whatever, nuclear scientist,gravedigger, are
not worth the paper they are writen on,leave this crazy world behind
you, you either know or you don't, we have information by the bucket
load, what we don't have is the creativity to use it
intelligently,whatever you do, do it and live it,
martin

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Trees for Health
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:19:45 +0100
From: Liz Turner <liz7@...>

PLEASE FORWARD TO OTHERS

Trees for Health: Reconnecting People and Plants

Trees for Health is a new organisation based in South Devon aiming to help
foster healthy communities and healthy ecosystems by revitalising our use
and knowledge of woodland.

Humans have historically depended on plants for food, medicine, shelter and
materials. Plants have also played a significant role in our mythologies,
beliefs and religions so that our history is interwoven with their history.
Trees in particular have been integral to our culture yet today we place far
less importance on our connection with them.

Aims & activities of Trees for Health include the following:
- To revive the sustainable use of native woodland and hedgerow species as
herbal remedies and food products
- To revitalise traditional ecological knowledge of plants, folklore,
mythology and festivals
- To provide opportunities for people to experience woodland through
workshops, volunteer activities and community events
- To restore native woodland where appropriate

Our work takes place in South Devon, initially with activities close to
Totnes, Kingsbridge and Plymouth. We also aim to help develop a network of
collaborating projects within local communities elsewhere.

We are setting up a volunteer group to carry out seed collecting, working in
tree nurseries, tree planting and harvesting berries, nuts, leaves, roots
and bark. We would also like to make contact with schools to carry out
woodland workshops/activity days. We will be working with disadvantaged
groups and are open to approaches from community groups in this sector.

If you would like to join us, membership is nominal (£5 waged, £2 unwaged,
£8 family, £10 group) and this provides the opportunity to join our
volunteer group and receive newsletters/email bulletins about events &
workshops.

We are also very glad of donations as we are just setting up incurring
expenses & hardly any income at the moment! You can make a one-off donation,
set up a direct debit or adopt a tree for £5!

We are also selling the newly released 'Earth Stars' CD - Songs of
Permaculture. Just £12!

Please email me if you are interested in any of these aspects of the project
& do pass this email onto anyone else who might be.

Below are details of our planned Autumn activities:
25 September - Stall at Dart Water Festival (www.devonwildlifetrust.org for
more details of event), Longmarsh, Totnes - selling autumn jams and
cordials, CDs, as well as encouraging people to 'adopt a tree' and collect &
plant tree seeds on the day.

10 October - Seed Gathering Sunday (national Tree Council event). Contact us
for details of an event near you, probably near Kingsbridge. See
www.treecouncil.org.uk for national events.

11 October - Seed gathering near Totnes.

29 October - Autumn Tree and Herb Celebration at Sharpham Estate near
Totnes, 11-3, Children £3 Adults £4. Bring along a packed lunch, booking
essential. Please contact Catherine on 01803 732799 for more details and to
book your place.

Details of this event:
On this eve of winter we will be celebrating trees and herbs at the Sharpham
Estate. The herb garden provides a store of root medicine and local
herbalists will be showing you how to gather the valuable plant sugars and
starches for nourishment in the winter months. We also invite you to meet
significant trees of the estate in our guided tree walk. You can take part
in seed collecting, art and games while learning about the ecology,
mythology and healing potential of trees, both as herbal remedies and as a
healing presence.

Tree Planting Week (national Tree Council event) 24/11/04 - 5/12/04. We will
be planting trees at different sites on different dates, contact us for more
info.

Best wishes
Liz Turner
Trees for Health


--
Plants for a Future: 7000 useful plants
Web:   http://www.pfaf.org/ same as http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/
Post:  1 Lerryn View, Lerryn, Lostwithiel, Cornwall, PL22 0QJ
Tel:  01208 872 963 / 0845 458 4719
Email: webmaster@...
PFAF electronic mailing list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf

Martin- am i understand you are saying we cannot learn beyond what
we already know? Shorely shum mishtake...


Graham

--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "martinwnaylor" <martinwnaylor@y...>
wrote:
> hi
> degrees certificates whatever, nuclear scientist,gravedigger, are
> not worth the paper they are writen on,leave this crazy world
behind
> you, you either know or you don't, we have information by the
bucket
> load, what we don't have is the creativity to use it
> intelligently,whatever you do, do it and live it,
> martin

Martin- am i understand you are saying we cannot learn beyond what
we already know? Shorely shum mishtake...


Graham

--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "martinwnaylor" <martinwnaylor@y...>
wrote:
> hi
> degrees certificates whatever, nuclear scientist,gravedigger, are
> not worth the paper they are writen on,leave this crazy world
behind
> you, you either know or you don't, we have information by the
bucket
> load, what we don't have is the creativity to use it
> intelligently,whatever you do, do it and live it,
> martin

--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Martin Naylor <martinwnaylor@y...>
wrote:
> hi
> it was a total mistake to send the original email, i realised
moments after all this will lead to is diferent opinions,

I know that feeling well ;-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Burnett" <grahamburnett@...>
To: "Aranya (new)" <aranya@...>;
<permaculture@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 11:14 PM
Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture Musicians Project & Earth Stars CD


>
> May I take this opportunity to recommend the Permaculture Musicians
Project,
> see website at http://www.permaculturemusicians.co.uk/
> and also the superb 'Earth Stars' CD put out by Aranya ( a member of the
> Permaculture Association UK council of management) as a benefit to raise
> funds for the said organisation- but don't buy it cos it's for a good
cause
> but because it is a beautiful collection of 'earthcare' songs... For a
> sampler of the tracks see
> http://www.permaculturemusicians.co.uk/downloads.htm
>
> Cheers Graham www.spiralseed.co.uk
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.756 / Virus Database: 506 - Release Date: 08/09/2004
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@...
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
>


---
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Hi all
Does anybody know of a humane way of stopping squirrels from damaging trees?
Particularly if you are planting new trees to create new woodland. I am
working with landowners who do not want to poison or shoot but are getting
quite substantial squirrel damage & have been told if they are serious about
getting trees established they have to control them somehow.

I will also be planting new woodland & therefore need to know.
thanks
Liz

Since we`re using a quite massive straw-mulch in the vegetables since last
autumn, it seems to me the mice-population is rising and especially now, when
autumn is coming they seem to eat more vegetables as wild herbs aren`t that
tender any more.
One thing I don´t know the english word for we used all the time: It`s
treetrunks, upright in the ground, that raptors can use to sit on and watch for
mice. But the mice are invisible below the straw...
Now I´m thinking of installing normal mousetraps to get the population down.
What is an easier and more succesful way?
Greetings from Klaus

pfaf@yahoogroups.com schrieb am 17.09.04 17:35:12:

Hi all
Does anybody know of a humane way of stopping squirrels from damaging trees?
Particularly if you are planting new trees to create new woodland. I am
working with landowners who do not want to poison or shoot but are getting
quite substantial squirrel damage & have been told if they are serious about
getting trees established they have to control them somehow.

I will also be planting new woodland & therefore need to know.
thanks
Liz





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pfaf@yahoogroups.com wrote:

>
>There is 1 message in this issue.
>
>Topics in this digest:
>
>      1. squirrels
>           From: "Liz Turner" <liz7@...>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 1
>   Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:56:15 +0100
>   From: "Liz Turner" <liz7@...>
>Subject: squirrels
>
>Hi all
>Does anybody know of a humane way of stopping squirrels from damaging trees?
>Particularly if you are planting new trees to create new woodland. I am
>working with landowners who do not want to poison or shoot but are getting
>quite substantial squirrel damage & have been told if they are serious about
>getting trees established they have to control them somehow.
>
>I will also be planting new woodland & therefore need to know.
>thanks
>Liz
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
A trap would be good.  To be humane, the trap couldn't injure the
squirrels.  You could take the trapped squirrels to someone who eats
wild animals.

--
Comedy, philosophy, my wish list, and alternative applications:
http://home.earthlink.net/~e-group/homepage.html

Hi all
Does anybody know of a humane way of stopping squirrels from damaging trees?
Particularly if you are planting new trees to create new woodland. I am
working with landowners who do not want to poison or shoot but are getting
quite substantial squirrel damage & have been told if they are serious about
getting trees established they have to control them somehow.

I will also be planting new woodland & therefore need to know.
thanks
Liz

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: COMMENT Crataegus coccinoides
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:26:45 +0100
From: Nobody <nobody@...>
To: webmaster@...

MIROS£AW BOGUCKI (miroslaw.bogucki@...) added the comment:

Could anybody help me to purchase seeds of CRATAEGUS COCCINEA or to
point at suppliers of these seeds. I'm from Poland and I want to have
this tree in my modest collection of Hawthorns (CRATAEGUS) Thanks
MIROS£AW BOGUCKI
e-mail: miroslaw.bogucki@...



--
Plants for a Future: 7000 useful plants
Web:   http://www.pfaf.org/ same as http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/
Post:  1 Lerryn View, Lerryn, Lostwithiel, Cornwall, PL22 0QJ
Tel:  01208 872 963 / 0845 458 4719
Email: webmaster@...
PFAF electronic mailing list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf