I don't have any particular opinion about overwintering tomatoes, but I would
like to point out that tomatoes are in fact short lived perennials in their
native tropical zones (so says Eric Toensmeier in "Perennial Vegetables," as
does Wikipedia, for what that's worth, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato), so
overwintering them wouldn't be an extreme defiance of Nature.

--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "travelerinthyme" <traveler.in.thyme@...> wrote:
>
> I advise against trying to keep tomato plants alive in a greenhouse over the
winter, after they have given their all during the normal growing season.
Tomatoes are naturally annuals, and torturing them by extending their normal
live span is just asking for bugs and diseases.
>
> If they produced well, and you preserved them properly for storage, in cans,
the freezer, or dehydrating, you should have all the tomatoes you need for
winter pizzas and pasta, without wasting energy (electricity, heat, and labour)
on trying to defy Nature.
>
> Eat winter veggies in the winter, eat summer veggies in summer, eat smart!
>
> ~Traveler in Thyme, Blanco County, Texas zone 8-9

Some of the tastiest tomatoes I have grown were on plants that were
surviving over winter in a greenhouse - I was not purposefully trying
to overwinter them, they just stayed alive and kept producing. hmm . .
. probably they were riper than the tomatoes I pick in season, in
season I harvest every day, out of season I may not have visited the
greenhouse every week.

All the best,
Matt

On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 1:15 AM, jonathantellerelsberg
<jelsberg@...> wrote:
> I don't have any particular opinion about overwintering tomatoes, but I would
like to point out that tomatoes are in fact short lived perennials in their
native tropical zones (so says Eric Toensmeier in "Perennial Vegetables," as
does Wikipedia, for what that's worth, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato), so
overwintering them wouldn't be an extreme defiance of Nature.
>
> --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "travelerinthyme" <traveler.in.thyme@...> wrote:
>>
>> I advise against trying to keep tomato plants alive in a greenhouse over the
winter, after they have given their all during the normal growing season.
Tomatoes are naturally annuals, and torturing them by extending their normal
live span is just asking for bugs and diseases.
>>
>> If they produced well, and you preserved them properly for storage, in cans,
the freezer, or dehydrating, you should have all the tomatoes you need for
winter pizzas and pasta, without wasting energy (electricity, heat, and labour)
on trying to defy Nature.
>>
>> Eat winter veggies in the winter, eat summer veggies in summer, eat smart!
>>
>> ~Traveler in Thyme, Blanco County, Texas zone 8-9

In my opinion, just trying to save precious energy:
while tomatoes are indeed short lived perennials in their Native Habitat, the
tropics, greenhouses are real energy hogs in colder climates, and aren't we all
trying not to use so much electricity that comes from coal and nukes, and isn't
there a water shortage over most of the world?

~Traveler in Thyme

Estragole is a lager component of tarragon (especially) and basil
essential oils than it is of fennel. The carcinogenic risks from
Estragole in fennel are probably close to those from orange juice and
tomatoes.

Fennel should not be used excessively, especially by breastfeeding
mothers and small children, but the risks are said to diminish
exponentially with the dose.

Even at the doses at which fennel is used medicinally, Estragole
levels are, at most, 100th of those at which there might be a
significant cancer risk.

As with all medicines, do not use unnecessarily, or over-dose.

All the best,
Matthew


On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 11:53 PM, Annalisa Balestrino
<giulisann@...> wrote:
>
>
> Dear All,
> I was advised not to use fennel seed tea for my daughter who is 2 years old.
> I pass this piece of info to you, especially to breastfeeding mothers and
mothers of children less than 4 years old in case they are not aware of the
negative effects of fennel,
> the information is published in Italian on the Italian website:
http://www.inran.it/         Inran stands for Istituto Nazionale di Ricerca per
gli Alimenti e la Nutrizione, National Research Institute for food and
nutrition, it is a public research body under the surveillance of the Ministry
for agriculture, food and forest policies:
>
> fennel seeds contain a substance called estragole which is carcinogenic, it
should not be given to children under 4 years old. Here in Italy the fennel seed
tea has been used for AGES to calm stomach gases in infants and newborns.
>
> Annalisa
>

You have to have lots of panels and lots of storage capacity to handle the
nights and the unexpected days when there is cloud cover. In northern latitudes,
solar in winter is a dream or a very, very expensive reality.

From experience, it doesn't take many hours to drain a storage bank if it is not
being replenished every day and I do mean every day. An overcast day is a big,
big problem.  Two days in a row means turning on the mains or a generator.  When
ever I look at a so-called off-grid setup, the moment I see a generator is the
moment that I call foul.

Since you are trying to minimise heat loss, it would seem to make sense to look
at construction.  Obviously, south facing is critical.  If that's where the sun
is strongest, why expose the northern wall to the air?  Insulate it, ideally, by
building into a hill side and burying all but that south wall.  Build on a
concrete slab that is painted black.

MikeH

--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hello Traveller in ThymeTotally agree about heating greenhouses with fossil
fuel but I do feel they are pretty good passive solar collectors on sunny days
and also pv panels can be used to charge batteries for nights and dark
days.JohnMW
>
> To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
> From: traveler.in.thyme@...
> Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 13:59:36 +0000
> Subject: [pfaf] Re: overwintering tomatoes in  greenhouse
>

I had an Edible Flower biz back in the 1980's, and in this part of Texas it
takes more energy to keep a greenhouse cool in the summer than warm in the
winter. We had a "water wall" of excelsior kept wet, with a big exhaust fan at
the other end, like a giant swamp cooler, but it was still too hot for
nasturtiums and pansies, and we never spent the $$$ for real air conditioning. 
In winter, we had two wood stoves, easy when the temps rarely freeze here,
anyway.

Now, if it won't live outdoors, forget it.  Cheaper to buy organic produce than
to produce it, some years,, like this one, with no rain at all for months at a
thyme.

~Traveler in Thyme, zone 8-9

"All that is gold does not glitter,

Not all those who wander are lost;

The old that is strong does not wither,

Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

A light from the shadows shall spring;

Renewed shall be blade that was broken,

The crownless again shall be king."

Hi. Thats interesting about the embodied energy used for the production of the
glass and other materials.

You need to do the research for the electric solar panels. Once the embodied
energy was high, and people like David Holgren were critical of it,  but now its
from 1% to 5% of the output over the lifetime of the panels. But, do the
research to see.

Electricity is a valuable form of energy for specific uses for which no other
energy form can directly be used, such as music and communications and low
energy lighting.

Unfortunately it is to the electric companies advantage for us to consume lots
of it, and also we tend not to be aware that we need to distinguish it as
special. So we use it for things that can be perfectly well served by wood
charcoal etc.

Id say one other possibility could be to open up the ground within the
greenhouse, to allow the heat from within the earth to come up. I hear that the
earth stays at a constant 10c a metre below the surface. But again this is more
or less hearsay, so anyone interested would do well to do some research on it.
Im going to. :) frank

On Thu, 03 Mar 2011 15:00 GMT Jonathan Teller-Elsberg wrote:

>Traveler in Thyme,
>
>Yes, you are right that the benefits of overwintering tomatoes in a heated
>greenhouse are far outweighed by the problems of unnecessary use of energy.
>But that assumes that the greenhouse exists only for the tomatoes. If a
>person has determined that they want/need a (heated) greenhouse for whatever
>reasons already, then putting some tomatoes into it doesn't much change the
>energy balance. Still, the joy of a fresh tomato shouldn't overwhelm
>someone's rational thinking and lead them to install an energy demanding
>greenhouse just for that simple pleasure.
>
>John Willis,
>
>Having sort of defended greenhouses above, now I'll beg to differ with you
>about the efficacy of solar systems to power heated greenhouses. A passive
>solar greenhouse is great, of course, though it does entail the embodied
>energy of the materials that construct it--sometimes really significant
>amounts of energy. That goes both for greenhouses glazed in glass or in
>polycarbonate. Polycarbonate is massively energy intensive to manufacture,
>as, of course, is glass. So all greenhouses, even passive solar ones, should
>be considered carefully before being installed to determine if they really
>will be utilized intensively enough to make up for their energy "cost" (not
>to mention their financial cost).
>
>PV panels only up the situation. The embodied energy in PV panels is
>significant and I suspect that, on balance, I'd be better off in terms of
>global warming gas emissions eating lettuce trucked from California to
>Vermont all winter than to install PV panels for the purpose of powering a
>greenhouse for my winter veggies. (As above, if the PV panels are being used
>for other reasons already, and have the spare capacity to boost a
>greenhouse's viability, then go for it. But PV expressly for powering a
>greenhouse? I fear that's a dead weight loss for the planet when all is said
>and done.)
>
>I hope I haven't sounded too didactic. Sometimes I get on a high horse when
>I don't mean too.
>
>Best,
>Jonathan
>
>--
>"We have changed the world, and we wonder why things won't stay the same."
>-Les Lanyon

Just want to let you know that Jerome Osentowski in Central Rocky Mountain
Permaculture Institute has excellent cool/cold climate greenhouse design
utilizing the subterranean heating and cooling system, aka climate
battery.  See more info:

http://permaculture.org.au/2010/08/16/clever-rocky-mountain-greenhouses-give-maj\
or-season-extension/

http://ecosystems-design.com/Greenhouse%20Design%20Services.html


:) ossi (from finland)


> You have to have lots of panels and lots of storage capacity to handle the
> nights and the unexpected days when there is cloud cover. In northern
> latitudes, solar in winter is a dream or a very, very expensive reality.
>
> From experience, it doesn't take many hours to drain a storage bank if it
> is not being replenished every day and I do mean every day. An overcast
> day is a big, big problem.  Two days in a row means turning on the mains
> or a generator.  When ever I look at a so-called off-grid setup, the
> moment I see a generator is the moment that I call foul.
>
> Since you are trying to minimise heat loss, it would seem to make sense to
> look at construction.  Obviously, south facing is critical.  If that's
> where the sun is strongest, why expose the northern wall to the air?
> Insulate it, ideally, by building into a hill side and burying all but
> that south wall.  Build on a concrete slab that is painted black.
>
> MikeH
>
> --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, john willis <wilf1946@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hello Traveller in ThymeTotally agree about heating greenhouses with
>> fossil fuel but I do feel they are pretty good passive solar collectors
>> on sunny days and also pv panels can be used to charge batteries for
>> nights and dark days.JohnMW
>>
>> To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
>> From: traveler.in.thyme@...
>> Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 13:59:36 +0000
>> Subject: [pfaf] Re: overwintering tomatoes in  greenhouse
>>
>
>

Bren,

You can read all past comments on the mailing list site at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf/

Rich (moderator)

--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Bren" <bhyshka@...> wrote:
>
> I  lost  the  comments  to  this  most  interesting thread . would  it  be
> possible  to  send  them  to  me    ,I  believe  that  there  was  3  or
> more   between   Wednesday {this one  &  Thursday  nite ..  thankyou
>
> Bren
>
>
>
> From: pfaf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:pfaf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Annalisa Balestrino
> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 7:54 AM
> To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [pfaf] fennel seeds and estragole
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear All,
> I was advised not to use fennel seed tea for my daughter who is 2 years old.
>
> I pass this piece of info to you, especially to breastfeeding mothers and
> mothers of children less than 4 years old in case they are not aware of the
> negative effects of fennel,
> the information is published in Italian on the Italian website:
> http://www.inran.it/         Inran stands for Istituto Nazionale di Ricerca
> per gli Alimenti e la Nutrizione, National Research Institute for food and
> nutrition, it is a public research body under the surveillance of the
> Ministry for agriculture, food and forest policies:
>
> fennel seeds contain a substance called estragole which is carcinogenic, it
> should not be given to children under 4 years old. Here in Italy the fennel
> seed tea has been used for AGES to calm stomach gases in infants and
> newborns.
>
> Annalisa
>

Crystal fusion heat, solar ponds etc.

Some low tech, low energy ways of keeping greenhouses/plants from
freezing, there are probably better examples of similar technology . .
.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V2P-497B9YY-RX&_user=\
10&_coverDate=12/31/1988&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d\
&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1b1\
36ca8377971a98f58bf8822487197&searchtype=a

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4244148.html

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-705.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond

Good luck,
Matt

I had a friend in the A/C biz tell me that you should never expect your
heat/cool mechanism to make more than a 20 degree Farenheit difference between
the indoors and outdoors, or else you are spending way too much money and
overburdening your equipment.   If it's cold inside, put on longjohns and a
sweater, if it's pleasant, open the windows (why I never could stand working in
an office or retail store ... Claustrophobia!)



I've always wish I lived at Amory Lovins' house in Colorado, with banana trees
in the greenhouse.  But that kinda emphasises my point that it's easier to
maintain a greenhouse in the cold than in the heat.   Same with our house here
in Texas.  You can put on longjohns and a sweater, and sit by the fire on chilly
days, but when it's 99 degrees in the shade with 99% humidity, ain't nowhere to
run, nowhere to hide, and the A/C bills are horrendous.   This big old barn is
not too difficult to cool, as the wide eaves prevent the sun from hitting the
glass until late afternoon, when I pull the same thick, insulating drapes we use
to keep out the winter drafts.

~Traveler in Thyme, zone 8-9

I think the powers that be wish to frighten us regarding the safety of
herbs-- at the same time they promote many drugs that do far more harm.



Matthew Sleigh wrote:
>
> Estragole is a lager component of tarragon (especially) and basil
> essential oils than it is of fennel. The carcinogenic risks from
> Estragole in fennel are probably close to those from orange juice and
> tomatoes.
>
> Fennel should not be used excessively, especially by breastfeeding
> mothers and small children, but the risks are said to diminish
> exponentially with the dose.
>
> Even at the doses at which fennel is used medicinally, Estragole
> levels are, at most, 100th of those at which there might be a
> significant cancer risk.
>
> As with all medicines, do not use unnecessarily, or over-dose.
>
> All the best,
> Matthew
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 11:53 PM, Annalisa Balestrino
> <giulisann@... <mailto:giulisann%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dear All,
> > I was advised not to use fennel seed tea for my daughter who is 2
> years old.
> > I pass this piece of info to you, especially to breastfeeding
> mothers and mothers of children less than 4 years old in case they are
> not aware of the negative effects of fennel,
> > the information is published in Italian on the Italian website:
> http://www.inran.it/ Inran stands for Istituto Nazionale di Ricerca
> per gli Alimenti e la Nutrizione, National Research Institute for food
> and nutrition, it is a public research body under the surveillance of
> the Ministry for agriculture, food and forest policies:
> >
> > fennel seeds contain a substance called estragole which is
> carcinogenic, it should not be given to children under 4 years old.
> Here in Italy the fennel seed tea has been used for AGES to calm
> stomach gases in infants and newborns.
> >
> > Annalisa
> >
>
>

Thats very intresting, thanks for the links!

More on heating greenhouses in substainable & energy efficient ways:
Has any of you done any experimenting with compost-heating?

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/compostheatedgh.html

Sapha



--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "Ossi Kakko" <ossi@...> wrote:
>
> Just want to let you know that Jerome Osentowski in Central Rocky Mountain
> Permaculture Institute has excellent cool/cold climate greenhouse design
> utilizing the subterranean heating and cooling system, aka climate
> battery.  See more info:
>
>
http://permaculture.org.au/2010/08/16/clever-rocky-mountain-greenhouses-give-maj\
or-season-extension/
>
> http://ecosystems-design.com/Greenhouse%20Design%20Services.html
>
>
> :) ossi (from finland)
>
>
> > You have to have lots of panels and lots of storage capacity to handle the
> > nights and the unexpected days when there is cloud cover. In northern
> > latitudes, solar in winter is a dream or a very, very expensive reality.
> >
> > From experience, it doesn't take many hours to drain a storage bank if it
> > is not being replenished every day and I do mean every day. An overcast
> > day is a big, big problem.  Two days in a row means turning on the mains
> > or a generator.  When ever I look at a so-called off-grid setup, the
> > moment I see a generator is the moment that I call foul.
> >
> > Since you are trying to minimise heat loss, it would seem to make sense to
> > look at construction.  Obviously, south facing is critical.  If that's
> > where the sun is strongest, why expose the northern wall to the air?
> > Insulate it, ideally, by building into a hill side and burying all but
> > that south wall.  Build on a concrete slab that is painted black.
> >
> > MikeH
> >
> > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, john willis <wilf1946@> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello Traveller in ThymeTotally agree about heating greenhouses with
> >> fossil fuel but I do feel they are pretty good passive solar collectors
> >> on sunny days and also pv panels can be used to charge batteries for
> >> nights and dark days.JohnMW
> >>
> >> To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
> >> From: traveler.in.thyme@
> >> Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 13:59:36 +0000
> >> Subject: [pfaf] Re: overwintering tomatoes in  greenhouse
> >>
> >
> >
>

"All that is gold does not glitter,

Not all those who wander are lost;

The old that is strong does not wither,

Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

A light from the shadows shall spring;

Renewed shall be blade that was broken,

The crownless again shall be king."

Special Plants for Large Containers







A great gardening article from TGTA about gardening in large containers.

Read it at our message board
http://s14.zetaboards.com/TGTA/topic/6656655/1/#new

Well your their check out some of the other great gardening stories and articles
we have posted.

TGTA TEAM

"All that is gold does not glitter,

Not all those who wander are lost;

The old that is strong does not wither,

Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

A light from the shadows shall spring;

Renewed shall be blade that was broken,

The crownless again shall be king."

I wonder if its just the selling of them thatll be illegal. If your into free
and the gift economy then maybe Itll further promote that. About time too. We
create abundance instead of only valuing lack of things. See the positive. They
maybe shooting themselves in the foot. Opening a can of abundance.

Theyre only doing it because they care about us though. Looking after our
interests so we dont get electric shocks, fall off a roof, get pinned  down
under a car. Regulation, its good for us. Everything will be totally regulated
soon. Something to look forward to, isnt it. Well, I just cant wait till we can
buy clean air, not this free polluted stuff weve got to breathe. Also dont you
think its unsightly all that washing people dangle on ropes outside their
dwellings?

Futures bright. Future is us fat little jelly blobs inside electric little self
contained cars called Daleks.with all that cyber stuff to play with, taking our
orders from those high celebrities.

.! :)

On Sun, 06 Mar 2011 17:54 GMT Elaine Sommers wrote:

>
>Can I just say, as someone studying herbalism and nutrition, that I agree with
all of this. The subject is so huge it could go on and on.
>
>Just a note on keeping herbs available and legal - I can't see how they can
reasonably prevent people growing their own medicines in the form of herbs.
You'd have to ban so many plants it would be like a police state, heaven forbid!
I did have to send away to the USA to get hold of some lobelia tincture which is
quite annoying, but I'm sure I could grow my own if I really wanted to. (I live
in the UK)
>
>Blessings,
>Elaine.
>
>"We are shaped and fashioned by what we love"
>  Goethe
>
>"Losing your mind can be a peak experience!"
>  Jane Wagner
>
>"Our nature lies in movement; complete calm is death."
>  Blaise Pascal
>
>". . . the greatest peril of life lies in the fact that human food consists
entirely of souls. All the creatures that we have to kill to eat, all those that
we have to strike down and destroy to make clothes for ourselves, have souls,
souls that do not perish with the body . . . All that exists lives."
>
>from 'Shaman, the wounded healer' by J. Halifax, 1982
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
>From: Infowolf1@...
>Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 10:06:09 -0500
>Subject: Re: [pfaf] re: fennel seeds and estragole
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>yes, but a lot of people don't think like that. They figure if its "natural" it
is safe.
>
>Like Bekki assumes that any announcement of carcinogenic problems in some
>active constituents of a herb is just propaganda from "the powers that be."
>The effects of these constituents don't work at small or infrequent dosing,
>
>An issue in that post she is reacting to, is use on an infant.
>
>but a herbal non "powers that be" source noted that echinacea is so
>safe, that you do not have to worry about overdosing EVEN ON AN INFANT,
>obviously therefore others are not so safe for a small and sensitive person.
>
>Dill is referenced as safe for infants. it has been in use for generations.
>
>If Bekki would check on herbalist books, she would find all sorts of
>contraindications for some herbs for some conditions, for nursing,
>for pregnancy, and some are a mixed bag of trick on the latter.
>
>some herbs are not safe for pets, others are. the principle of chemotherapy,
>dose high enough to kill the disease but low enough not to kill the patient,
>could indeed be an issue in some cases.
>
>I remember years ago, I beat an infection that would normally have taken
>a couple of bottles of antibiotics, using myrrh, goldenseal and something
>else. That was a whole bottle of myrrh pills in a few days.
>
>I felt oddly sick after that, like I had a minor poisoning problem. But it
>worked.
>
>A general rule also, is that you do not use echinacea to prevent colds,
>because sure, it boosts the immune system, but that is not how it
>cures. It inhibits a huge range of bacteria and a few virus in vitro.
>So it should only be taken if you are getting sick.
>
>Ginseng is an absolute no-no if you are already getting sick, or have
>some chronic low level infection, because it will boost any living
>organism it gets its molecules on, incl. pathogens.
>
>I learned that the hard way, stumbled on the fact in a book I hadn't
>read yet, after I got over the results.
>
>Herbs MUST be kept legal because you can get treatment at no
>waiting time for far less money than with regular medicine and
>sometimes for things that medicine doesn't deal with well, such
>as viruses. A great number of herbs for curing things are antiviral,
>a category that regular medicine is barely dealing with and at
>enormous cost.
>
>But one needs to take the time and money to study these things
>carefully.
>
>The mockery given about Vitamin C a long time ago, was because
>it was ignored that to cure anything you need at least 10,000 mg
>all at once, maybe more than once a day. That what you don't need
>is excreted means nothing, it is what it is doing in your body before
>it is excreted that counts.
>
>Mary Christine
>
>
>In a message dated 3/6/2011 5:06:25 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
permalove@... writes:
>
>
>
>Mary Christine,
>
>I noticed a recurring theme in your recent post on the actions of herbs;
several times you mention how herbal activity could interact negatively with
prescription drugs.  I think the solution here is pretty clear: don't mix herbs
and prescriptions unless one is certain of their combined effects.
>
>Bekki stated
>"I think the powers that be wish to frighten us regarding the safety of
>herbs-- at the same time they promote many drugs that do far more harm."
>
>In my opinion, both of these points are true (at least until we start talking
about the deadliest of plants, mushrooms, etc).
>This is not to say that herbs can't hurt you, but the corporate establishment
does indeed campaign ACTIVELY to promote fear of natural remedies, so the first
point is true.  And you only need to examine the fine print on almost any
pharmaceutical prescription to be horrified at the list of side effects.
>It is well known that single constituent prescriptin drugs cause side effects
not experienced from the use of the source plant.  This is because the
synergistic effect of the complete profile of constituents often cancels out any
side effects caused by any one compound.  The wisdom of mother nature is clearly
more comprehensive than that of any laboratory team.
>
>Peace,
>
>Steve.
>--
>
>
>"All that is gold does not glitter,
>Not all those who wander are lost;
>The old that is strong does not wither,
>Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
>
>From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
>A light from the shadows shall spring;
>Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
>
>The crownless again shall be king."
>~  J.R.R. Tolkien
>
>
>
>
>
>