With a comp. spreadsheet its a simple but tedius matter of entering the values
(a set of values would need to be designated that the program can recognise and
differentiate) in the columns and rows...a new row for each species I would say
base it upon the 'plant species matrix' in David Jackes and Eric whathisnames
format in their FG opus book. A spreadsheet program then allows you to do
whatever you want with the data. I would say expand Jackes plant species matrix
and have  elements from his other tables, plus possibly other factors/issues to
be entered...as in the actual plant pollination month/s for beneficial insects
etc. A spreadsheet can be much more complicated and extensive than a paper table
without loss of coherance and usefulness...and comutations can be done. I did
some work a  few years ago on PFI (private finance initiative) funding/costs of
new roadbuilds. (that used cost benefit analysis (CBA) type math to calculate
present values of future costs..which were jinormous by the way). That was for a
road protestcom - The A55 Expressway in North Wales. Some people (on side)
thought it was just a time wasting blag/play for the public enquiry! It was
complicated due to the nature of converting the inital data (a bit sparse) into
a useful CBA formula/e. This nu idea compared is easy..but lots of data entry.

The PFAF database might well be spreadsheet based - I don't know. This idea
could work as a useful design tool.

Its a great idea to have a international polyculture research program - I wonder
if the UK permaculture polyculture research group mentioned previously know of
this other project? Maybe the two can merge? or at least conjunct. Of course it
has to a scientific type free data sharing project (rather than some sort of
manical private free enterprise trip) - this being permaculture!

..but try actually living by these values in your personal life folks..oh deary
deary me, free love sharing om love psy telepathic communal vibration rather
than win/lose games?! Oh dear, that would mean being a real hippy
maaaaaannnnnnn. By the way the sacrament for transcendance is important..it is
important than the sacrament (if mind altering drugs are in the mix) be shared
freely with no money game vibes. That is one thing the American rainbow tribe
people have right. That concept is correct...but the issue of plastic shammanic
theft of native american ritual is serious and very damaging and also hippy type
permies are blind to this in general. Its bad medicene as well as being
disrespectful. It has serious mental heath fallout...and will contain and limit
the power of what people are doing ESPECIALLY in terms of community wide effect
of the work).

Good luck out there anyway - back into hibernation for me I think.

...many many examples of this sort of agroforestry in southern Europe where
light levels are greater than the UK. Spain, Portugal etc etc. I observed in
Portugal sweet chestnut trees with wheat interplanting ...as well as
collective/village owned chestnut groves in many many areas.

Tis most curious to me such a discussion. I seem to be walking a path whereby I
distill 'techniques' into an understanding of what their energetic effects are.
They might then be described more scientifically/universally than previously,
when they were embedded in the 'language' used by the particular tradition. So,
to me, the word 'shamanic' relates to the tranmutation of energy that may take
place within the human organism, that may give rise to an embodiment of the
creative healing force (love).

To say that in order to experience this one must belong to a particular genetic
heritage is something that I find difficult to integrate. I see that there may
be some sort of 'morphogenetic field' for channeling this vibration of energy,
and thus one might be able to tune into what one's ancestors have created and
maintained. It should be remembered though that there are and have been many
'Wôbi' people for whom this has been a primary concern. However, there are and
have been likewise a number of 'Wôbi' people who seem to have desired that
people do not experience such states. Hence Roman 'Christianity', the crusades
against the gnostics, witchhunts, and now the mass dosing with pharmaceutical
poisons. The 'Great Seal' (magical sigil) of the 'USA' demonstrates the desire
of the 'elite' to keep this 'occult knowledge' to themselves - it shows a
capstone, with an eye of illumination (symbolising the 'elite'), detached from
the rest of the pyramid (the 'uninitiated masses').

Despite all of this, some kept the flame alight. Some of these people encoded
their 'shamanic' knowledge into the obscure system of Alchemy, whilst others
secretly practiced more traditional forms of their craft. Most people are
completely ignorant of this history, as of course it is not taught in schools.
These practices have since developed into many 'systems', which in the current
economy will continue to multiply as people keep trying to repackage them as
something novel to sell. But as I see it the energy is there for anyone to make
contact with; one must simply forge one's own connection, and one will be
stronger for having done so. "Truth is a pathless land." It is my perception
that it is through not taking any 'tradition' too seriously, and experimenting
with many different practices that I have come to this understanding. Yes, I
think that it is silly when people adopt another tradition without anything more
than a very superficial connection to it. But they do this primarily because
they still have a need for identity. Many people who are truly questioning seem
to have been brought to this by the breaking down of the existing structures in
their lives. This to me shows that the experience of life is the greatest
teacher, independent of any culture or tradition. 'Shamanism' I define as the
scientific method applied to spirit. (But really there needs be no division at
all between body and spirit, which is part of how we were led into hypnosis to
start with.)

Scientific method, n.: The principles and empirical processes of discovery and
demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific
investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the formulation
of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the
truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or
modifies the hypothesis.

Maybe?

A.


--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Smittyctz6 <cityhomesteader@...> wrote:
>
> Funny seeing this here.. Very W�bi..
> We don't really care if  W�bi people try to steal what they think is
> "shamanistic"
> We follow the true way the Mekwi Road.. It is in our Blood, because of that
> it can only be accessed by a  Mekwi Zan�ba or Behanem
>
> >   That is one thing the American rainbow tribe people have right. That
> > concept is correct...but the issue of plastic shammanic theft of native
> > american ritual is serious and very damaging and also hippy type permies are
> > blind to this in general. Its bad medicene as well as being disrespectful.
> > It has serious mental heath fallout...and will contain and limit the power
> > of what people are doing ESPECIALLY in terms of community wide effect of the
> > work).
> >
> > Good luck out there anyway - back into hibernation for me I think.
> >
>

This thread is now getting off topic for this group, so I'm now going to close
the thread. I would ask members not to post again on  this topic. if you wish to
reply to can email the authors of the posts.

Richard (Moderator)

--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Smittyctz6 <cityhomesteader@...> wrote:
>
> The Original Author was stating that the " hippy type permies" were stealing
> something from Our Culture that can not be stolen. Our Spirituality.  W�bi.

When Native American ritual is stolen by whites its ceases to be native american
ritual - thats what my native american friends say. Jesus doesn't come into it -
thats another tradition and if you ask me a loony one mostly. (in the organised
christian church and regualr bible - stone age nonsense).

Many hippy type permies and vegans etc just take it for granted they they, or
the 'scene' can use teepees, and various imitations of native american culture
and ritual. Not only is this stolen ritual senario dangerous pyscologically
(take care kids of these supposedly sound and right on people!), but it is also
disrespectful to native american culture, and ALSO massivly reduces the
effectivness of the work that many who are concerned about the trashing of
Mother Earth by, essentially, 'western' values by the way,, IN TERMS OF
COMMUNITY WIDE EFFECT...and thats the crux, to break through to the wider
community on these issues. This issue is ignored by many, thus:

http://www.sustainability-centre.org/#

..this place is the base for the UK Permaculture Magazine. Native Americans
traditions request that Europeans cease using their ritual and culture. This
MOST DEFINITLY IS a very very very very serious issue for native american
traditionals and even many mainstream native americans.

It gets even worse with outfits like the mid Wales based 'Workhouse
Collective'...they have a kinda hardcore vegan/anaimal rights extremist even
type stance, and would campaign activly against Makah tribal whaling for
example, thus:

http://www.makah.com/whaling.htm

Headcases! This is what 'plastic shammanism' is - false realities/consciousness
made by ritual abuse/theft of indigenous ritual that produces a 'plastic
reality'.


The other point I was making was that although permacultural concepts may by
sharing caring, prominent personalities in the permie scene display some very
very ultra competive behavious in terms of personal pyscological game plays.

I.e what I am saying is that you need to forget the vampiring of a multitude of
indigenous traditions from around the world, and just take the free love concept
of sharing, which really I think most real religions are actually about...and
start living by that as much as possible. Thus the ethos of the so called
'rainbow tribe' type thing. (but again perhaps the bloodline native americans
are the real Rainbow Tribe..maybe thats just another white mans imitation game),
but leave native american ritual alone, and start sharing...and that would most
definitly and essentially include any mind altering drugs in the mix. I.e blody
well ban dealing, enforced by NVDA (non violent direct action) if neccessary,
and start a sharing 'nice' game at events! That way collective consciousness is
auspciously changed, and hopefully also on a community wide basis.

All the best ya'll!

Blessed be

Jim.

Hi yeah, I checked out this link, and tryed to join the project - but the input
form doesn't work properly by the way...allowing the USA to be the only country
of residence...and obviously we need to see where in the world people are based
to see if the work/plants we are doing/using are compatable with relevant
others.



--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "trentrhode" <trentrhode@...> wrote:
>
> I want to mention that there is an online tool in development with an
organization called the Apios Institute, with Dave Jacke and Eric Toensmeier
being part of it, that is designed specifically for people to share and document
plants and plant combinations that work in regions throughout the world.
>
> http://www.apiosinstitute.org
>
> Currently the system is in its testing and data input stage, with a lot of
plants and polycultures already added. If anyone is interested in helping to get
it going faster (e.g. inputting plant data), let me know and I'll pass along the
message.
>
> "We envision an integrated system of diverse collaborators undertaking action
research, cooperative plant breeding, and participatory education using a
distributed network of research and demonstration sites in various regions
within the world's temperate forest biomes. We focus initially on small-scale
systems for local production of food, fuel, fiber, fodder, fertilizer,
farmaceuticals, and fun for urban, suburban, and rural environments, but we also
address small-farm systems and support work at larger scales."
>
> ~Trent Rhode
>
> --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "i23testingcyborg2000" <cromlech108@> wrote:
> >
> > Let me throw this idea out to the group etc. (computor spreadsheet/s of
polycultures/forest garden guilds etc.)
> >
> > Can't get my head around it with the limited computor access that I have at
the moment...and it could be worked on by a group of students or whatever as a
joint project, here or elsewhere. I think it might be worthwhile.
> >
> >
> > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "i23testingcyborg2000" <cromlech108@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
http://permacultureassociation.cmail3.com/T/ViewEmail/y/058789F1BD1DC029/833C777\
2F6CB092D6A4D01E12DB8921D
> > >
> > > Quote:
> > >
> > > One of the central assertions of permaculture is that growing things
together is beneficial. To test if this is true and what combinations work best,
we want to create a network of people experimenting with polycultures in their
gardens and fields.
> > >
> > > To start this process, we want to bring together people working with
polycultures, to explore what we need to know and how we might start finding
out. We will be hosting sessions in Leeds (23rd March), London (30th March) and
Bristol (date tbc) to begin this exploration. At the end of each meeting we hope
to have that most important ingredient of research: a set of curious questions,
and some ideas on how to answer them. To find out more, get dates and venues,
and get involved, email research@
> > >
> > > Endquote.
> > >
> > > I'm interested in this field...currently studying David Jackes forest
gardens work...
> > >
> > > http://www.edibleforestgardens.com/
> > >
> > > ...complex words but very interesting and I think they have got something
new there. I've printed out the worksheets and am going through the species. Its
something new for example in the FG field to consciously seek benefical
insectory plants to cover the whole season - rather than not aiming for this in
consciousness design or achieving it (or not) by accident.
> > >
> > > The number of plant interactions are almost infinite in multiple species
polycultures, and currently I'm finding it quite a headstrain...these
polycultures evolved in indigenous systems over many hundreds even thousands of
years - and so to put new ones together immediately for temperate forest garden
systems is quite a job I think!
> > >
> > > Taking Jackes etc worksheet method forwards - I was thinking about the
idea of a computer spreadsheet of species relevant for the UK climate...thus
species with common/wanted atributes could be identifed quite easily by that
method...i.e. 'list all species that are shade tolerate, nutrient accumulators,
damp soil' - and up you would get a list!
> > >
> > > It would be quite a lot of work to enter all the data...this is taking it
forward from Martin Crawfords work and Patrick Whitfields etc (in terms of the
Forest Garden synthesis of guilds/polycultures). It is what needs to be done I
think - it all seems a bit simple minded at present - in a way that isn't
necceaarily sound if you see what I mean, as in people are kinda making this
stuff up in the temperate FG context...again, rather that being long time
evolved indigenous systems. I would say Martin has got closest to the 'grail' of
UK FG's. He has a huge level of knoledge.
> > >
> > > I am making a new forest garden...but wont really be able to enact the
ideas above fully there as such - its next to species rich meadow (planted with
cultivars of nut and fruit trees in what I call a foodwood pasture/meadow
format)...and so there are other constraints. The area has been mulched with
plastic, and will be seeded with local provinance wildflower seed next autumn.
(This growth will increase the diversity of the adjacent meadow, which has been
plowed in the past). There is also the factor or invasive/opportunistic species
(which Jackes is very good on),..and the area of the country in question is very
uninvaded currently. (special part of High Weald). Fruit/nut trees and bushes
will be interplanted also next winter, and some ground cover installed - but it
will have to be carefully vetted. Bocking 14 comfrey will be one thing that can
in I think. I'll also check the list of native species, and so those varieties
should be ok, and then just select things that are not disersive or invasive
whatever. There is also the factor of change of shading during succession...so
ultimately garlic ramsons would be sound, but initially there is lots of light,
and dryness in summer in this location, whereas in my FG on a north slope on
anglesey, ramsons have taken nicely in a currently open FG garden.
> > >
> > > Here are some pics or the Brightling and Weald of Kent projects:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf/photos/album/0/list
> > >
> > > The groundcover in the Weald of Kent FG is not developed at present
really..initially I wanted wildflowers there...and have mulched a 30 metre sq
area for sowing next autumn. I cut the hay in late summer and its used to mulch
the plants..this works quite well I think, the spiders love it anyway. I've
recently mulched with plastic around the base of the big fruit trees (they've
been there for 35 years now), this is too get some sort of product from the
trees...seaweed meal/woodash being used as a fertiliser. The groundcover areas
will be planted as and when I know what I'm doing and as and when the plants are
available.
> > >
> > > I have the answers sirs! the grail is within my grasp!!!!
> > >
> > > ...just a few more thousands hours head bent over in intense study through
the small hours and it will be mine! all mine!!!!
> > >
> >
>

Use of 'shammanic plants' or magical plants that radically change consciousness
can be very enlightening. I would say stick to a free range approach, certainly
don't go for any of these pay camps, and stay away from native american
tradition unless you really are genuinely descended from the relavent tribe.
This is what native americans in general say - not me! I really think it is
possible to learn more, as a European, with a free range anarchistic approach.
The stuff I've talked about here on this list etc really has happened! (communal
telepathy/shapeshifting etc etc.) You can transcend materialsm, including the
actual 'material' nature of reality, because reality is not actually materially
based..it just seems so, and magical plants can do this for ones consciousness,
in the right state of mind and right setting; BUT because there is no continuous
aboriginal tradition of using such plants in European christian culture and
tradition, when people start to get into such stuff again, well, they can quite
easily start doing plastic shammanism, when really I think one should have
respect for ones own aboriginal ancestry, and not steal the native americans.
Yes I know that this is a concept that BNP nazi scum have tried to usurp -
British indigenous culture. However don't let them set the agenda. I don't mean
it that way. I don't (obviously) mean Norman Tebbit world of sad and petty
fascist small minded half a brain Englishness. NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

What I mean for example is, if you have western European ancestry (or
otherwise!), take a look at this temple of goddess magic for example:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1RNNN_enGB361GB361&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8\
&q=callanish+temple

Powerful medicene for sure. There is also real stuff in Anglo Saxon
traditional/pagan culture/ritual...Bending the weird! Blessed be! - again
magical/mind altering drugs basically make this sort of real time magic more
accessable to the mind...but again (tribal identity/ancestry) its not something
to be taken obessively seriously and exclusivly as the BNP mentally ill
holocaust denying fascists do, because all human beings originated from
Africa...so tribal type identity is important, but not *THAT* important. (but
that doesn't mean its right to simple try and take whatever indigenous
tribal/eastern tradition we feel like and start using it in our our lives for
ritual or otherwise.)

All this stuff is mainstream in the 'east'...where I'm going again this summer.
Yipppeeeee!!! Its really a different reality in India...where people worship and
respect the mountain spirits and Devas, the Mother Earth, where there is a way
out of the game of society that is respected, the holy person, rather than
scapegoated and vilified and abused like in Blightyworld. (and yes there is a
reason for that and its called ritual abuse rather than having an auspsicious
Mother Earth ritual grounded reality, essentially..once again, the crux of the
issue that we face in terms of 'saving planet earth' type thing.)


Good luck humans - you'll need it!

Blessings
--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "ortaa23" <ormus23@...> wrote:
>
> Tis most curious to me such a discussion. I seem to be walking a path whereby
I distill 'techniques' into an understanding of what their energetic effects
are. They might then be described more scientifically/universally than
previously, when they were embedded in the 'language' used by the particular
tradition. So, to me, the word 'shamanic' relates to the tranmutation of energy
that may take place within the human organism, that may give rise to an
embodiment of the creative healing force (love).
>
> To say that in order to experience this one must belong to a particular
genetic heritage is something that I find difficult to integrate. I see that
there may be some sort of 'morphogenetic field' for channeling this vibration of
energy, and thus one might be able to tune into what one's ancestors have
created and maintained. It should be remembered though that there are and have
been many 'Wôbi' people for whom this has been a primary concern. However,
there are and have been likewise a number of 'Wôbi' people who seem to have
desired that people do not experience such states. Hence Roman 'Christianity',
the crusades against the gnostics, witchhunts, and now the mass dosing with
pharmaceutical poisons. The 'Great Seal' (magical sigil) of the 'USA'
demonstrates the desire of the 'elite' to keep this 'occult knowledge' to
themselves - it shows a capstone, with an eye of illumination (symbolising the
'elite'), detached from the rest of the pyramid (the 'uninitiated masses').
>
> Despite all of this, some kept the flame alight. Some of these people encoded
their 'shamanic' knowledge into the obscure system of Alchemy, whilst others
secretly practiced more traditional forms of their craft. Most people are
completely ignorant of this history, as of course it is not taught in schools.
These practices have since developed into many 'systems', which in the current
economy will continue to multiply as people keep trying to repackage them as
something novel to sell. But as I see it the energy is there for anyone to make
contact with; one must simply forge one's own connection, and one will be
stronger for having done so. "Truth is a pathless land." It is my perception
that it is through not taking any 'tradition' too seriously, and experimenting
with many different practices that I have come to this understanding. Yes, I
think that it is silly when people adopt another tradition without anything more
than a very superficial connection to it. But they do this primarily because
they still have a need for identity. Many people who are truly questioning seem
to have been brought to this by the breaking down of the existing structures in
their lives. This to me shows that the experience of life is the greatest
teacher, independent of any culture or tradition. 'Shamanism' I define as the
scientific method applied to spirit. (But really there needs be no division at
all between body and spirit, which is part of how we were led into hypnosis to
start with.)
>
> Scientific method, n.: The principles and empirical processes of discovery and
demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific
investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the formulation
of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the
truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or
modifies the hypothesis.
>
> Maybe?
>
> A.
>
>
> --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Smittyctz6 <cityhomesteader@> wrote:
> >
> > Funny seeing this here.. Very W�bi..
> > We don't really care if  W�bi people try to steal what they think is
> > "shamanistic"
> > We follow the true way the Mekwi Road.. It is in our Blood, because of that
> > it can only be accessed by a  Mekwi Zan�ba or Behanem
> >
> > >   That is one thing the American rainbow tribe people have right. That
> > > concept is correct...but the issue of plastic shammanic theft of native
> > > american ritual is serious and very damaging and also hippy type permies
are
> > > blind to this in general. Its bad medicene as well as being disrespectful.
> > > It has serious mental heath fallout...and will contain and limit the power
> > > of what people are doing ESPECIALLY in terms of community wide effect of
the
> > > work).
> > >
> > > Good luck out there anyway - back into hibernation for me I think.
> > >
> >
>

Yes, it isn't launched yet so the sign up form isn't ready, but I wanted to
share the link anyway so that you could read about it. It's almost ready for
public launch. I'll let them know to make sure one can choose different
countries.
~Trent

--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "i23testingcyborg2000" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
>
> Hi yeah, I checked out this link, and tryed to join the project - but the
input form doesn't work properly by the way...allowing the USA to be the only
country of residence...and obviously we need to see where in the world people
are based to see if the work/plants we are doing/using are compatable with
relevant others.
>
>
>
> --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "trentrhode" <trentrhode@> wrote:
> >
> > I want to mention that there is an online tool in development with an
organization called the Apios Institute, with Dave Jacke and Eric Toensmeier
being part of it, that is designed specifically for people to share and document
plants and plant combinations that work in regions throughout the world.
> >
> > http://www.apiosinstitute.org
> >
> > Currently the system is in its testing and data input stage, with a lot of
plants and polycultures already added. If anyone is interested in helping to get
it going faster (e.g. inputting plant data), let me know and I'll pass along the
message.
> >
> > "We envision an integrated system of diverse collaborators undertaking
action research, cooperative plant breeding, and participatory education using a
distributed network of research and demonstration sites in various regions
within the world's temperate forest biomes. We focus initially on small-scale
systems for local production of food, fuel, fiber, fodder, fertilizer,
farmaceuticals, and fun for urban, suburban, and rural environments, but we also
address small-farm systems and support work at larger scales."
> >
> > ~Trent Rhode
> >
> > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "i23testingcyborg2000" <cromlech108@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Let me throw this idea out to the group etc. (computor spreadsheet/s of
polycultures/forest garden guilds etc.)
> > >
> > > Can't get my head around it with the limited computor access that I have
at the moment...and it could be worked on by a group of students or whatever as
a joint project, here or elsewhere. I think it might be worthwhile.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "i23testingcyborg2000" <cromlech108@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
http://permacultureassociation.cmail3.com/T/ViewEmail/y/058789F1BD1DC029/833C777\
2F6CB092D6A4D01E12DB8921D
> > > >
> > > > Quote:
> > > >
> > > > One of the central assertions of permaculture is that growing things
together is beneficial. To test if this is true and what combinations work best,
we want to create a network of people experimenting with polycultures in their
gardens and fields.
> > > >
> > > > To start this process, we want to bring together people working with
polycultures, to explore what we need to know and how we might start finding
out. We will be hosting sessions in Leeds (23rd March), London (30th March) and
Bristol (date tbc) to begin this exploration. At the end of each meeting we hope
to have that most important ingredient of research: a set of curious questions,
and some ideas on how to answer them. To find out more, get dates and venues,
and get involved, email research@
> > > >
> > > > Endquote.
> > > >
> > > > I'm interested in this field...currently studying David Jackes forest
gardens work...
> > > >
> > > > http://www.edibleforestgardens.com/
> > > >
> > > > ...complex words but very interesting and I think they have got
something new there. I've printed out the worksheets and am going through the
species. Its something new for example in the FG field to consciously seek
benefical insectory plants to cover the whole season - rather than not aiming
for this in consciousness design or achieving it (or not) by accident.
> > > >
> > > > The number of plant interactions are almost infinite in multiple species
polycultures, and currently I'm finding it quite a headstrain...these
polycultures evolved in indigenous systems over many hundreds even thousands of
years - and so to put new ones together immediately for temperate forest garden
systems is quite a job I think!
> > > >
> > > > Taking Jackes etc worksheet method forwards - I was thinking about the
idea of a computer spreadsheet of species relevant for the UK climate...thus
species with common/wanted atributes could be identifed quite easily by that
method...i.e. 'list all species that are shade tolerate, nutrient accumulators,
damp soil' - and up you would get a list!
> > > >
> > > > It would be quite a lot of work to enter all the data...this is taking
it forward from Martin Crawfords work and Patrick Whitfields etc (in terms of
the Forest Garden synthesis of guilds/polycultures). It is what needs to be done
I think - it all seems a bit simple minded at present - in a way that isn't
necceaarily sound if you see what I mean, as in people are kinda making this
stuff up in the temperate FG context...again, rather that being long time
evolved indigenous systems. I would say Martin has got closest to the 'grail' of
UK FG's. He has a huge level of knoledge.
> > > >
> > > > I am making a new forest garden...but wont really be able to enact the
ideas above fully there as such - its next to species rich meadow (planted with
cultivars of nut and fruit trees in what I call a foodwood pasture/meadow
format)...and so there are other constraints. The area has been mulched with
plastic, and will be seeded with local provinance wildflower seed next autumn.
(This growth will increase the diversity of the adjacent meadow, which has been
plowed in the past). There is also the factor or invasive/opportunistic species
(which Jackes is very good on),..and the area of the country in question is very
uninvaded currently. (special part of High Weald). Fruit/nut trees and bushes
will be interplanted also next winter, and some ground cover installed - but it
will have to be carefully vetted. Bocking 14 comfrey will be one thing that can
in I think. I'll also check the list of native species, and so those varieties
should be ok, and then just select things that are not disersive or invasive
whatever. There is also the factor of change of shading during succession...so
ultimately garlic ramsons would be sound, but initially there is lots of light,
and dryness in summer in this location, whereas in my FG on a north slope on
anglesey, ramsons have taken nicely in a currently open FG garden.
> > > >
> > > > Here are some pics or the Brightling and Weald of Kent projects:
> > > >
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf/photos/album/0/list
> > > >
> > > > The groundcover in the Weald of Kent FG is not developed at present
really..initially I wanted wildflowers there...and have mulched a 30 metre sq
area for sowing next autumn. I cut the hay in late summer and its used to mulch
the plants..this works quite well I think, the spiders love it anyway. I've
recently mulched with plastic around the base of the big fruit trees (they've
been there for 35 years now), this is too get some sort of product from the
trees...seaweed meal/woodash being used as a fertiliser. The groundcover areas
will be planted as and when I know what I'm doing and as and when the plants are
available.
> > > >
> > > > I have the answers sirs! the grail is within my grasp!!!!
> > > >
> > > > ...just a few more thousands hours head bent over in intense study
through the small hours and it will be mine! all mine!!!!
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Moderator,

I thought this thread was kaput....?

Maury
"Be where you live"

--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "i23testingcyborg2000" <cromlech108@...> wrote:
>
> Use of 'shammanic plants' or magical plants that radically change
consciousness can be very enlightening. I would say stick to a free range
approach, certainly don't go for any of these pay camps, and stay away from
native american tradition unless you really are genuinely descended from the
relavent tribe. This is what native americans in general say - not me! I really
think it is possible to learn more, as a European, with a free range anarchistic
approach. The stuff I've talked about here on this list etc really has happened!
(communal telepathy/shapeshifting etc etc.) You can transcend materialsm,
including the actual 'material' nature of reality, because reality is not
actually materially based..it just seems so, and magical plants can do this for
ones consciousness, in the right state of mind and right setting; BUT because
there is no continuous aboriginal tradition of using such plants in European
christian culture and tradition, when people start to get into such stuff again,
well, they can quite easily start doing plastic shammanism, when really I think
one should have respect for ones own aboriginal ancestry, and not steal the
native americans. Yes I know that this is a concept that BNP nazi scum have
tried to usurp - British indigenous culture. However don't let them set the
agenda. I don't mean it that way. I don't (obviously) mean Norman Tebbit world
of sad and petty fascist small minded half a brain Englishness.
NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
>
> What I mean for example is, if you have western European ancestry (or
otherwise!), take a look at this temple of goddess magic for example:
>
>
http://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1RNNN_enGB361GB361&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8\
&q=callanish+temple
>
> Powerful medicene for sure. There is also real stuff in Anglo Saxon
traditional/pagan culture/ritual...Bending the weird! Blessed be! - again
magical/mind altering drugs basically make this sort of real time magic more
accessable to the mind...but again (tribal identity/ancestry) its not something
to be taken obessively seriously and exclusivly as the BNP mentally ill
holocaust denying fascists do, because all human beings originated from
Africa...so tribal type identity is important, but not *THAT* important. (but
that doesn't mean its right to simple try and take whatever indigenous
tribal/eastern tradition we feel like and start using it in our our lives for
ritual or otherwise.)
>
> All this stuff is mainstream in the 'east'...where I'm going again this
summer. Yipppeeeee!!! Its really a different reality in India...where people
worship and respect the mountain spirits and Devas, the Mother Earth, where
there is a way out of the game of society that is respected, the holy person,
rather than scapegoated and vilified and abused like in Blightyworld. (and yes
there is a reason for that and its called ritual abuse rather than having an
auspsicious Mother Earth ritual grounded reality, essentially..once again, the
crux of the issue that we face in terms of 'saving planet earth' type thing.)
>
>
> Good luck humans - you'll need it!
>
> Blessings
> --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "ortaa23" <ormus23@> wrote:
> >
> > Tis most curious to me such a discussion. I seem to be walking a path
whereby I distill 'techniques' into an understanding of what their energetic
effects are. They might then be described more scientifically/universally than
previously, when they were embedded in the 'language' used by the particular
tradition. So, to me, the word 'shamanic' relates to the tranmutation of energy
that may take place within the human organism, that may give rise to an
embodiment of the creative healing force (love).
> >
> > To say that in order to experience this one must belong to a particular
genetic heritage is something that I find difficult to integrate. I see that
there may be some sort of 'morphogenetic field' for channeling this vibration of
energy, and thus one might be able to tune into what one's ancestors have
created and maintained. It should be remembered though that there are and have
been many 'Wôbi' people for whom this has been a primary concern. However,
there are and have been likewise a number of 'Wôbi' people who seem to have
desired that people do not experience such states. Hence Roman 'Christianity',
the crusades against the gnostics, witchhunts, and now the mass dosing with
pharmaceutical poisons. The 'Great Seal' (magical sigil) of the 'USA'
demonstrates the desire of the 'elite' to keep this 'occult knowledge' to
themselves - it shows a capstone, with an eye of illumination (symbolising the
'elite'), detached from the rest of the pyramid (the 'uninitiated masses').
> >
> > Despite all of this, some kept the flame alight. Some of these people
encoded their 'shamanic' knowledge into the obscure system of Alchemy, whilst
others secretly practiced more traditional forms of their craft. Most people are
completely ignorant of this history, as of course it is not taught in schools.
These practices have since developed into many 'systems', which in the current
economy will continue to multiply as people keep trying to repackage them as
something novel to sell. But as I see it the energy is there for anyone to make
contact with; one must simply forge one's own connection, and one will be
stronger for having done so. "Truth is a pathless land." It is my perception
that it is through not taking any 'tradition' too seriously, and experimenting
with many different practices that I have come to this understanding. Yes, I
think that it is silly when people adopt another tradition without anything more
than a very superficial connection to it. But they do this primarily because
they still have a need for identity. Many people who are truly questioning seem
to have been brought to this by the breaking down of the existing structures in
their lives. This to me shows that the experience of life is the greatest
teacher, independent of any culture or tradition. 'Shamanism' I define as the
scientific method applied to spirit. (But really there needs be no division at
all between body and spirit, which is part of how we were led into hypnosis to
start with.)
> >
> > Scientific method, n.: The principles and empirical processes of discovery
and demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific
investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the formulation
of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the
truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or
modifies the hypothesis.
> >
> > Maybe?
> >
> > A.
> >
> >
> > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Smittyctz6 <cityhomesteader@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Funny seeing this here.. Very W�bi..
> > > We don't really care if  W�bi people try to steal what they think is
> > > "shamanistic"
> > > We follow the true way the Mekwi Road.. It is in our Blood, because of
that
> > > it can only be accessed by a  Mekwi Zan�ba or Behanem
> > >
> > > >   That is one thing the American rainbow tribe people have right. That
> > > > concept is correct...but the issue of plastic shammanic theft of native
> > > > american ritual is serious and very damaging and also hippy type permies
are
> > > > blind to this in general. Its bad medicene as well as being
disrespectful.
> > > > It has serious mental heath fallout...and will contain and limit the
power
> > > > of what people are doing ESPECIALLY in terms of community wide effect of
the
> > > > work).
> > > >
> > > > Good luck out there anyway - back into hibernation for me I think.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi,
    Does anyone have any top tips on how to build a sustainable and nutritional
diet?  I want to eat locally and grow most of my own food, but there are lots of
conflicting issues, for example: Most vegan diets use large amounts of grains. 
However many grains are not sustainable, requiring annual plowing of the earth,
and significant fossel fuel inputs.  So what do you use for staples?
How do you get your protien, carbs, vitamins and minerals from produce that is
local and sustainable, thoughout the year?  Food forests are a great idea, but
what do you do for food while you are waiting for them to mature?

Thanks in advance.

Kind regards,

Pete.

The message <790645.35961.qm@...>
from Gail Lloyd <gardenchick1949@...> contains these words:

> only cook w/ coconut oil, ghee, or avocado oil (high smoke points).


Hi

Where do you find avocado oil ?  I cannot recollect ever seeing it before.

Cheers

--
Peter Ellis

Porec Sales Office
Croatia Property Services
A trading name of Peter Ellis Grupa d.o.o.
Selling in the new Tuscany!

Tel  +385 (0) 92 247 5879 Personal
        +385 (0) 98 1 826240

peter.ellis@...
info@...

http://www.croatiapropertyservices.com
http://croatiaproperty.proboards16.com

Hi Pete,
As to nutrition I'm not an expert, but I grow my own food and find it healthy
enough. As to sustainability, your idea to grow  food yourself is good enough.
If you have or can rent a plot of land @1000sqm you can support a family in food
aswell. As to ploughing, techniques such as covering the soil with old black
plastic or old carpets for a couple of months will reduce the depth at which you
would need to plough (15cm) which will not permanently damage the soil
structure. As to fossil fuels being used in agricultural equipment, the few
liters of fuel you use is negligble compared to the 100's of liters of fuel one
uses to transport food or travel to the supermarket. Rotate your crops often,
interplant with crops that improve the soil, use a wormery for fertilization and
recomposting, use drip irrigation or find old varieties that can grow without or
almost no water. Grow varieties unique to you area and introduce animal and
insect species to do most of
  your farming work for you. The trick in sustainability is efficency.  Do this
and you will be the envy of all seeking to make our planet a more sustainable
place.
Respectfully,

Warron van Riet

Hi Pete,
A quick update on what you can grow to supplement your protein intake.

Seeds sprouted and not
Lentils
Tofu, tempeh, seitan
Peanuts
Legumes, the highest # being soya
Brocolli
Artichoke
Beets
Mushrooms
Cauliflower
Aubergine
Peppers
Lettuce
Greens
Onions
Potatoes and yams
Spinach
Corn
Courgettes
Water cress
Pumpkin, sunflower seeds
Apples
Bananas
Grapes
Strawberries
Melons
Grapefruit, oranges
Peach
Pears

Hope this helps until your nut trees grow!

Respectfully,

Warron van Riet

Mountain Rose, an herbal company in Eugene, OR sells Avocado Oil. I think it is
www.mountainreose.com, or Google it.

Sustainable gardening has been one of my lifelong passions. I also forage. My
yard contains, naturally, everything from Asparagus to Barley Grass, rose,
currants and wild plums. I collect Rumex, Chenopodium and Plantain (Plantago)
seeds. My freezer is full of not only vegetables from my garden but Goosefoot
pesto. My larder and dried stashes include herbs, seeds and roots/tubers from
Lovage, Milk Weed, Cat tail...What I can't gather/grow here I can collect in the
mountains or buy locally. Pinon, great Chiles (we have a short season).
I 'inherited' two acres of lush field that is sub-watered. In the canal is Reed
Grass, Smartweed, Brook Mint (and Mallards right now). My predecessors,Spanish
with their keen sense of remedios and drawing on Native knowledge, grew a garden
of herbs including Native Silverweed and Osha (Lovage), they imported wonderful
Dandelions and Purslane. It has been a pleasure to 're-instate' the weeds and
add other important plants because of their medicinal/edible uses, as well as
beauty to deter the Quack Grass--the only thing I have found in my yard that has
no use, per se.
My goat straw is recycled-after a year of fermenting-into my garden and my
neighbor brings me Elk now and again....
On a fixed income, I feel pretty darn sustained....

--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Peter Ellis <peter.ellis@...> wrote:
>
> The message <790645.35961.qm@...>
> from Gail Lloyd <gardenchick1949@...> contains these words:
>
> > only cook w/ coconut oil, ghee, or avocado oil (high smoke points).
>
>
> Hi
>
> Where do you find avocado oil ?  I cannot recollect ever seeing it before.
>
> Cheers
>
> --
> Peter Ellis
>
> Porec Sales Office
> Croatia Property Services
> A trading name of Peter Ellis Grupa d.o.o.
> Selling in the new Tuscany!
>
> Tel  +385 (0) 92 247 5879 Personal
>        +385 (0) 98 1 826240
>
> peter.ellis@...
> info@...
>
> http://www.croatiapropertyservices.com
> http://croatiaproperty.proboards16.com
>

What milkweed-species do you use for tubers? greetings from KLaus

Zitat von watchintheriver <maury@...>:

> Mountain Rose, an herbal company in Eugene, OR sells Avocado Oil. I
> think it is www.mountainreose.com, or Google it.
>
> Sustainable gardening has been one of my lifelong passions. I also
> forage. My yard contains, naturally, everything from Asparagus to
> Barley Grass, rose, currants and wild plums. I collect Rumex,
> Chenopodium and Plantain (Plantago) seeds. My freezer is full of not
> only vegetables from my garden but Goosefoot pesto. My larder and
> dried stashes include herbs, seeds and roots/tubers from Lovage,
> Milk Weed, Cat tail...What I can't gather/grow here I can collect in
> the mountains or buy locally. Pinon, great Chiles (we have a short
> season).
> I 'inherited' two acres of lush field that is sub-watered. In the
> canal is Reed Grass, Smartweed, Brook Mint (and Mallards right now).
> My predecessors,Spanish with their keen sense of remedios and
> drawing on Native knowledge, grew a garden of herbs including Native
> Silverweed and Osha (Lovage), they imported wonderful Dandelions and
> Purslane. It has been a pleasure to 're-instate' the weeds and add
> other important plants because of their medicinal/edible uses, as
> well as beauty to deter the Quack Grass--the only thing I have found
> in my yard that has no use, per se.
> My goat straw is recycled-after a year of fermenting-into my garden
> and my neighbor brings me Elk now and again....
> On a fixed income, I feel pretty darn sustained....
>
> --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, Peter Ellis <peter.ellis@...> wrote:
>>
>> The message <790645.35961.qm@...>
>> from Gail Lloyd <gardenchick1949@...> contains these words:
>>
>> > only cook w/ coconut oil, ghee, or avocado oil (high smoke points).
>>
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> Where do you find avocado oil ?  I cannot recollect ever seeing it before.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> --
>> Peter Ellis
>>
>> Porec Sales Office
>> Croatia Property Services
>> A trading name of Peter Ellis Grupa d.o.o.
>> Selling in the new Tuscany!
>>
>> Tel  +385 (0) 92 247 5879 Personal
>>        +385 (0) 98 1 826240
>>
>> peter.ellis@...
>> info@...
>>
>> http://www.croatiapropertyservices.com
>> http://croatiaproperty.proboards16.com
>>
>
>
>



Allmende e.V.-Gemeinschaftlicher Permakulturgarten für Verden
Artilleriestr. 6
D-27283 Verden
Tel   (+49) 4231- 90 30 470
Mobil (+49) 176- 23172036
http://www.allmende.de.vu
Wir bieten Praktika und freiwilliges ökologisches Jahr.

I'd contribute only if the information is going to be available for free, not
"member-fee" driven.  They will be getting this info for---free?---then selling
it? I certainly hope not.  Any word on that yet, because I can't seem to find
out specifically if they are planning on such critically valuable information
being available to all, similar to PFAF's database, or not.  And what about any
(expensive) books he might create from this free info?  Now, there's another
sticky subject entirely, but I digress....

I'm not putting down the idea. I'm all for it.  Just asking some hard questions,
that's all.  Don't know about if others have noticed, but is anyone else
becoming alarmed by how many people are now out there selling permaculture
information, teaching, etc., cashing in on the movement?  Permaculture is going
to die a quick death if it becomes any more commercialized.  Just when we're
going to need it the most?  Or is that what some of these jokers are counting
on?  That people will become desperate and take these "courses" now popping up
like mushrooms?

Where are the Ken Fern's of permaculture anymore?  I've always considereed him
its shining model.


> > --- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, "trentrhode" <trentrhode@> wrote:
  > I want to mention that there is an online tool in development with an
organization called the Apios Institute, with Dave Jacke and Eric Toensmeier
being part of it, that is designed specifically for people to share and document
plants and plant combinations that work in regions throughout the world.
> > >
> > > http://www.apiosinstitute.org
> > >
> > > Currently the system is in its testing and data input stage, with a lot of
plants and polycultures already added. If anyone is interested in helping to get
it going faster (e.g. inputting plant data), let me know and I'll pass along the
message.

There was an article in a magazine once (10 yrs ago?) about a man who built a
beautiful home entirely from scrap materials.  He also built terraced
mountainside permie gardens out of used fridges he obtained from the tip, even
growing fruit trees in them.  He additionally used them for goat and chicken
sheds, too. Can't remember which mag it was in, but the man was from either
Switzerland or Germany.

Bob Flowerdew, a British gardening guru, also has gardening uses for them, as
water buts and storage.

That's all I've ever been able to find so far. Does anyone have further
information on this type of gardening?  Could be very useful for handicapped
gardening.  Am wondering about cautions using fridges.

Any references / info on fridge gardens would be useful!