Why do we live in little boxes?  It kinda makes sense for a family to live
together in a few rooms (living room, kitchen, bathroom and bedrooms), and it's
traditional.  But is it suitable to our real needs?  I don't think it is.  For
socialism to take over this society with all of its housing, as is, would put a
great strain on the first few decades of socialism as the housing stock
gradually deteriorated.
***
In theory you would patch up your own house or get the trades persons in to do
it, for free.  But with a couple of billion homes to maintain and in many
millions of cases to build from scratch for the millions that are at present
homeless or living in squalor will take a massive army of brickies, chippies,
electricians, plumbers, roofers, labourers and so on.  Also the supply of
building materials would have to be stepped up greatly.  And that is just to
carry on as we are.
***
But as I said, are little boxes what people will want in a socialist world?  I
think not.  Why did we start living this way.  Well it made sense at the time. 
Back in the old days when there were very few humans on a very large planet you
would find a cave to live in, or a tree, or you'd build a mud hut.  But caves
can be damp, and they are dark, and there aren't enough of them to go around. 
Also, as people developed agriculture they needed to be right by the land.  A
tribe would build a few small huts and one big hut.  The small huts would give
more privacy, the big huts were good for socialising.
***
As we industrialised we created towns where the butcher, baker, candlestick
maker were all close to each other, and as we further industrialised we needed
the workers accommodation to be next to the dark satanic mills.  Labout was
cheap and building control non-existant, and a house could be built in a day
(they normally took a couple of weeks).  No other thought was put into it until
Ebenezer Howard built Letchworth and later Welwyn Garden Cities and brought in
the garden cities movement.
***
The Garden Cities organisation became the TCPA (Town & Country Planning
Association) of which I am a member.  Unfortunately the TCPA is in some senses
backward looking, still wedded to the idea of family homes.  But what of the
future?  What form will the family take in a socialist world?  When the
relationship between worker and work might be entirely different from the
present, when everyone in the world is free to move around without any border
controls or financial impediment, what sort of housing and transport systems and
work places will satisfy their needs?
***
I have so often imagined the future and how it might operate that I have
developed various ideas to answer these questions.  And there is no need to wait
until the overwhelming majority are in favour of socialism, we can start
building the future right now, pull the world out of recession, show what
socialist thought really can do, attract more people to the socialist mode of
thinking and cause a snowball effect resulting in socialism in the shortest time
possible.  How can anyone argue with that?
***
Any questions?

Cheers,

Bob
***

Yes Sir. I have a question. Why bother thinking about socialism? (Theres a
saying that If your still a socialist by the time your 40 then you just havent
grown up). Much more important is fair shares,and best practise for people,and
the  planet and the present culture shift - to - best environmental practise,
could that be permaculture (which is what your talking about,really.)  And the
most important here is whats the flavour of wineberries.
- i find they grow with a sweet tangy taste here. And also, how to not increase
the rat population, when putting kitchen waste straight out on the ground,
rather than putting it as i do in an enclosed compost barrel.to do its stuff.
Fran k



Robert Howes wrote:
>       Why do we live in little boxes?  It kinda makes sense for a family to
live together in a few rooms (living room, kitchen, bathroom and bedrooms), and
it's traditional..  But is it suitable to our real needs?  I don't think it is. 
For socialism to take over this society with all of its housing, as is, would
put a great strain on the first few decades of socialism as the housing stock
gradually deteriorated.
> ***
> In theory you would patch up your own house or get the trades persons in to do
it, for free.  But with a couple of billion homes to maintain and in many
millions of cases to build from scratch for the millions that are at present
homeless or living in squalor will take a massive army of brickies, chippies,
electricians, plumbers, roofers, labourers and so on.  Also the supply of
building materials would have to be stepped up greatly.  And that is just to
carry on as we are.
> ***
> But as I said, are little boxes what people will want in a socialist world?  I
think not.  Why did we start living this way.  Well it made sense at the time. 
Back in the old days when there were very few humans on a very large planet you
would find a cave to live in, or a tree, or you'd build a mud hut.  But caves
can be damp, and they are dark, and there aren't enough of them to go around. 
Also, as people developed agriculture they needed to be right by the land.  A
tribe would build a few small huts and one big hut..  The small huts would give
more privacy, the big huts were good for socialising.
> ***
> As we industrialised we created towns where the butcher, baker, candlestick
maker were all close to each other, and as we further industrialised we needed
the workers accommodation to be next to the dark satanic mills.  Labout was
cheap and building control non-existant, and a house could be built in a day
(they normally took a couple of weeks).  No other thought was put into it until
Ebenezer Howard built Letchworth and later Welwyn Garden Cities and brought in
the garden cities movement.
> ***
> The Garden Cities organisation became the TCPA (Town & Country Planning
Association) of which I am a member.  Unfortunately the TCPA is in some senses
backward looking, still wedded to the idea of family homes.  But what of the
future?  What form will the family take in a socialist world?  When the
relationship between worker and work might be entirely different from the
present, when everyone in the world is free to move around without any border
controls or financial impediment, what sort of housing and transport systems and
work places will satisfy their needs?
> ***
> I have so often imagined the future and how it might operate that I have
developed various ideas to answer these questions.  And there is no need to wait
until the overwhelming majority are in favour of socialism, we can start
building the future right now, pull the world out of recession, show what
socialist thought really can do, attract more people to the socialist mode of
thinking and cause a snowball effect resulting in socialism in the shortest time
possible.  How can anyone argue with that?
> ***
> Any questions?
> Cheers,
> Bob
> ***
>

Dear Mentha Man and others,

Let me tell you a few more interesting facts about Rubus spp.

Here in the mid Himalayas, there is a wild growing Rubus locally called AAKHEY
(R. ellepticus).  It is the MOST TASTY raspberry I have tasted so far (I have
eaten many).

According to one view, the TASTIEST FRUIT ON EARTH is Arctic raspberry (Rubus
arctitis).

You can read more details about both of these at the following links in
Fruitipedia.

Please do write me back if you know more about these.

AAKHE - http://www.fruitipedia.com/aakhe.htm

  Dr. Chiranjit Parmar
www.fruitipedia.com


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: mentha_man
   To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 12:39 AM
   Subject: [pfaf] Descriptions of wine berry's taste?





   I think they are the best of the Rubus species. I read they are more raspberry
than blackberry but they do have juiciness of the blackberry. I keep thinking
they remind me of a marionberry.

   It get the tay berry, marion berry, logan berry and boysenberry mixed up. I
know the flavors are quite different too. Can people describe the wine berry for
me. I vaguelly remember a rich complex flavor the most.

   Has anyone created a flavor classification system by chance?

   Adam





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings Bob.  First off, i am friends with many people from many
pagan paths, including dark pagans, middle path (earth centered nature
practioners of many paths), and that includes middle path satanists!
The dark only aspects of cos is too extreme, but they can do as they
may as long as they dont go overboard, but at least they dont try to
convert anyone!  Please refrain from using satanic in a negative way.
As to the rest of your post, thats generally true, but socialism isnt
new at all!  How did a clan or tribe survive in the old days?  By
pooling their resources to ensure the tribe or clans survival!  That
includes winter and famines!  Thats where Karl Marx got it from in the
first place.  It is a better model than capitalism,  but unless its
tribunal ran with everyone in the tribunal being equal,  you can get
abuses of that system also, joseph stalin is a example of what i mean
by abusing socialism! However, i agree with most of  your post.
Blessings of  the Netjer  Shaman  Odin

On 21/06/2009, Robert Howes <robertcircle1@...> wrote:
> Why do we live in little boxes?  It kinda makes sense for a family to live
> together in a few rooms (living room, kitchen, bathroom and bedrooms), and
> it's traditional.  But is it suitable to our real needs?  I don't think it
> is.  For socialism to take over this society with all of its housing, as is,
> would put a great strain on the first few decades of socialism as the
> housing stock gradually deteriorated.
> ***
> In theory you would patch up your own house or get the trades persons in to
> do it, for free.  But with a couple of billion homes to maintain and in many
> millions of cases to build from scratch for the millions that are at present
> homeless or living in squalor will take a massive army of brickies,
> chippies, electricians, plumbers, roofers, labourers and so on.  Also the
> supply of building materials would have to be stepped up greatly.  And that
> is just to carry on as we are.
> ***
> But as I said, are little boxes what people will want in a socialist world?
> I think not.  Why did we start living this way.  Well it made sense at the
> time.  Back in the old days when there were very few humans on a very large
> planet you would find a cave to live in, or a tree, or you'd build a mud
> hut.  But caves can be damp, and they are dark, and there aren't enough of
> them to go around.  Also, as people developed agriculture they needed to be
> right by the land.  A tribe would build a few small huts and one big hut.
> The small huts would give more privacy, the big huts were good for
> socialising.
> ***
> As we industrialised we created towns where the butcher, baker, candlestick
> maker were all close to each other, and as we further industrialised we
> needed the workers accommodation to be next to the dark satanic mills.
> Labout was cheap and building control non-existant, and a house could be
> built in a day (they normally took a couple of weeks).  No other thought was
> put into it until Ebenezer Howard built Letchworth and later Welwyn Garden
> Cities and brought in the garden cities movement.
> ***
> The Garden Cities organisation became the TCPA (Town & Country Planning
> Association) of which I am a member.  Unfortunately the TCPA is in some
> senses backward looking, still wedded to the idea of family homes.  But what
> of the future?  What form will the family take in a socialist world?  When
> the relationship between worker and work might be entirely different from
> the present, when everyone in the world is free to move around without any
> border controls or financial impediment, what sort of housing and transport
> systems and work places will satisfy their needs?
> ***
> I have so often imagined the future and how it might operate that I have
> developed various ideas to answer these questions.  And there is no need to
> wait until the overwhelming majority are in favour of socialism, we can
> start building the future right now, pull the world out of recession, show
> what socialist thought really can do, attract more people to the socialist
> mode of thinking and cause a snowball effect resulting in socialism in the
> shortest time possible.  How can anyone argue with that?
> ***
> Any questions?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bob
> ***
>
>


--
Blessings of the Netjer
Shaman Odin

hehehe  ^^

When you compost fish after removing the caviar, don't you have trouble keeping
the neighbours out of your bins ?

Who has rat attracting kitchen waste that the ducks, chicken, goats or pigs
won't eat ?

m@

----- Original Message -----
From: frank_bowman@...
To: robertcircle1@...
Cc: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 6/21/09 7:25 AM
Subject: RE: [pfaf] Little boxes

Yes Sir. I have a question. Why bother thinking about socialism? (Theres a
saying that If your still a socialist by the time your 40 then you just havent
grown up). Much more important is fair shares,and best practise for people,and
the  planet and the present culture shift - to - best environmental practise,
could that be permaculture (which is what your talking about,really.)  And the
most important here is whats the flavour of wineberries.
- i find they grow with a sweet tangy taste here. And also, how to not increase
the rat population, when putting kitchen waste straight out on the ground,
rather than putting it as i do in an enclosed compost barrel.to do its stuff.
Fran k



Robert Howes wrote:
>       Why do we live in little boxes?  It kinda makes sense for a family to
live together in a few rooms (living room, kitchen, bathroom and bedrooms), and
it's traditional..  But is it suitable to our real needs?  I don't think it is. 
For socialism to take over this society with all of its housing, as is, would
put a great strain on the first few decades of socialism as the housing stock
gradually deteriorated.
> ***
> In theory you would patch up your own house or get the trades persons in to do
it, for free.  But with a couple of billion homes to maintain and in many
millions of cases to build from scratch for the millions that are at present
homeless or living in squalor will take a massive army of brickies, chippies,
electricians, plumbers, roofers, labourers and so on.  Also the supply of
building materials would have to be stepped up greatly.  And that is just to
carry on as we are.
> ***
> But as I said, are little boxes what people will want in a socialist world?  I
think not.  Why did we start living this way.  Well it made sense at the time. 
Back in the old days when there were very few humans on a very large planet you
would find a cave to live in, or a tree, or you'd build a mud hut.  But caves
can be damp, and they are dark, and there aren't enough of them to go around. 
Also, as people developed agriculture they needed to be right by the land.  A
tribe would build a few small huts and one big hut..  The small huts would give
more privacy, the big huts were good for socialising.
> ***
> As we industrialised we created towns where the butcher, baker, candlestick
maker were all close to each other, and as we further industrialised we needed
the workers accommodation to be next to the dark satanic mills.  Labout was
cheap and building control non-existant, and a house could be built in a day
(they normally took a couple of weeks).  No other thought was put into it until
Ebenezer Howard built Letchworth and later Welwyn Garden Cities and brought in
the garden cities movement.
> ***
> The Garden Cities organisation became the TCPA (Town & Country Planning
Association) of which I am a member.  Unfortunately the TCPA is in some senses
backward looking, still wedded to the idea of family homes.  But what of the
future?  What form will the family take in a socialist world?  When the
relationship between worker and work might be entirely different from the
present, when everyone in the world is free to move around without any border
controls or financial impediment, what sort of housing and transport systems and
work places will satisfy their needs?
> ***
> I have so often imagined the future and how it might operate that I have
developed various ideas to answer these questions.  And there is no need to wait
until the overwhelming majority are in favour of socialism, we can start
building the future right now, pull the world out of recession, show what
socialist thought really can do, attract more people to the socialist mode of
thinking and cause a snowball effect resulting in socialism in the shortest time
possible.  How can anyone argue with that?
> ***
> Any questions?
> Cheers,
> Bob
> ***
>







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thats really interesting thanks. I keep looking and talking to my wineberries
and they are growing very well. Im really pleased that like the rest of the
fruit bushes that they grow well at height too. Here it is 900ft.  Robert hart
who lived at around 500 ft, had a plant on the corner of his little shed as you
went out of his garden. They looked so perfect you could have sworn they were
plastic. They werent a common plant. I plucked one,and felt a bit of a thief.
Xfrank

Dr. Chiranjit Parmar wrote:
>       Dear Mentha Man and others,
> Let me tell you a few more interesting facts about Rubus spp.
> Here in the mid Himalayas, there is a wild growing Rubus locally called AAKHEY
(R. ellepticus).  It is the MOST TASTY raspberry I have tasted so far (I have
eaten many).
> According to one view, the TASTIEST FRUIT ON EARTH is Arctic raspberry (Rubus
arctitis).
> You can read more details about both of these at the following links in
Fruitipedia.
> Please do write me back if you know more about these.
> AAKHE - http://www.fruitipe dia.com/aakhe. htm
> Dr. Chiranjit Parmar
> www.fruitipedia. com
> ----- Original Message -----
>   From: mentha_man
>   To: pfaf@yahoogroups. com
>   Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 12:39 AM
>   Subject: [pfaf] Descriptions of wine berry's taste?
> I think they are the best of the Rubus species. I read they are more raspberry
than blackberry but they do have juiciness of the blackberry. I keep thinking
they remind me of a marionberry.
> It get the tay berry, marion berry, logan berry and boysenberry mixed up. I
know the flavors are quite different too.. Can people describe the wine berry
for me. I vaguelly remember a rich complex flavor the most.
> Has anyone created a flavor classification system by chance?
> Adam
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi. Well, it is a fact that the owls do love to appear more when the rat
population goes up, and its really great to see them. But id rather just have a
normal rat population,and not be overun. I think rats are probably great
creatures like other rodents. I really love the little stubby fat voles.  I
reckon our minds in Uk, have been propoganderised to dislike rats. If ive got to
have them around though, I think id rather have just a normal amount. As they do
suffer from acute incontinance.     . I do appreciate other places dont suffer
from this problem, and in towns houses, every body is living a bit sealed in,
not so close to nature, as we do here, low impact. Putting the kitchen waste
straight in the ground has to be the best thing i agree, except for making great
rich potting compost, and so its good to have a supply. What i do find good
otherwise is putting a little at the bottom of a pot when potting and also
putting some in the bottom of the hole
  when planting a tree.
  And we were given that advise with squashes, cucumbers, courgettes, grown in a
pot and it worked really well. Fran k.

matthew@... wrote:
>       hehehe  ^^
> When you compost fish after removing the caviar, don't you have trouble
keeping the neighbours out of your bins ?
> Who has rat attracting kitchen waste that the ducks, chicken, goats or pigs
won't eat ?
> m@
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: frank_bowman@ yahoo.co. uk
> To: robertcircle1@ yahoo.co. uk
> Cc: pfaf@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: 6/21/09 7:25 AM
> Subject: RE: [pfaf] Little boxes
> Yes Sir. I have a question. Why bother thinking about socialism? (Theres a
saying that If your still a socialist by the time your 40 then you just havent
grown up). Much more important is fair shares,and best practise for people,and
the  planet and the present culture shift - to - best environmental practise,
could that be permaculture (which is what your talking about,really. )  And the
most important here is whats the flavour of wineberries.
> - i find they grow with a sweet tangy taste here. And also, how to not
increase the rat population, when putting kitchen waste straight out on the
ground, rather than putting it as i do in an enclosed compost barrel.to do its
stuff.
> Fran k
> Robert Howes wrote:
>>       Why do we live in little boxes?  It kinda makes sense for a family to
live together in a few rooms (living room, kitchen, bathroom and bedrooms), and
it's traditional. .  But is it suitable to our real needs?  I don't think it is.
For socialism to take over this society with all of its housing, as is, would
put a great strain on the first few decades of socialism as the housing stock
gradually deteriorated.
>> ***
>> In theory you would patch up your own house or get the trades persons in to
do it, for free.  But with a couple of billion homes to maintain and in many
millions of cases to build from scratch for the millions that are at present
homeless or living in squalor will take a massive army of brickies, chippies,
electricians, plumbers, roofers, labourers and so on.  Also the supply of
building materials would have to be stepped up greatly.  And that is just to
carry on as we are.
>> ***
>> But as I said, are little boxes what people will want in a socialist world? 
I think not.  Why did we start living this way.  Well it made sense at the time.
Back in the old days when there were very few humans on a very large planet you
would find a cave to live in, or a tree, or you'd build a mud hut.  But caves
can be damp, and they are dark, and there aren't enough of them to go around. 
Also, as people developed agriculture they needed to be right by the land.  A
tribe would build a few small huts and one big hut..  The small huts would give
more privacy, the big huts were good for socialising.
>> ***
>> As we industrialised we created towns where the butcher, baker, candlestick
maker were all close to each other, and as we further industrialised we needed
the workers accommodation to be next to the dark satanic mills.  Labout was
cheap and building control non-existant, and a house could be built in a day
(they normally took a couple of weeks).  No other thought was put into it until
Ebenezer Howard built Letchworth and later Welwyn Garden Cities and brought in
the garden cities movement.
>> ***
>> The Garden Cities organisation became the TCPA (Town & Country Planning
Association) of which I am a member.  Unfortunately the TCPA is in some senses
backward looking, still wedded to the idea of family homes.  But what of the
future?  What form will the family take in a socialist world?  When the
relationship between worker and work might be entirely different from the
present, when everyone in the world is free to move around without any border
controls or financial impediment, what sort of housing and transport systems and
work places will satisfy their needs?
>> ***
>> I have so often imagined the future and how it might operate that I have
developed various ideas to answer these questions.  And there is no need to wait
until the overwhelming majority are in favour of socialism, we can start
building the future right now, pull the world out of recession, show what
socialist thought really can do, attract more people to the socialist mode of
thinking and cause a snowball effect resulting in socialism in the shortest time
possible.  How can anyone argue with that?
>> ***
>> Any questions?
>> Cheers,
>> Bob
>> ***
>>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
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>

Im thinking should i post this or should i not. After all this group is an
amazing plant focussed learning thing, and im just contributing to taking it
away from its focus.and into other areas. But i will, and thats it, ill shut up
spouting.


  Hi. I was just being cheeky about 'if ur still a socialist by the time ur 40'
thing. As of course if the answer to a competitive (u call capatilist) tribe, in
our case world tribe is to share (at least - life - lifes 4 elements - lifes
essentials) then thats the answer to pursue and beyond 40.

The answer to someone who says u havent grown up is 'well you only climbed the
mountain of awareness so far up,and u came back down, if u had carried on up, u
may have got to the top!.  For me the top awareness, is that we are best
becoming us, from growing in the right soil, the right environment for us, so
that whatever plant or flower we individually are we will blossom and flower,in
happiness, content we are becoming growing, and the only thing thats stopping
some of us from doing that is that the competitive success oriented soil that we
live in is not the right type of soil for us. X fran k

frank_bowman@... wrote:
> Yes Sir. I have a question. Why bother thinking about socialism? (Theres a
saying that If your still a socialist by the time your 40 then you just havent
grown up). Much more important is fair shares,and best practise for people,and
the  planet and the present culture shift - to - best environmental practise,
could that be permaculture (which is what your talking about,really. )  And the
most important here is whats the flavour of wineberries.
> - i find they grow with a sweet tangy taste here. And also, how to not
increase the rat population, when putting kitchen waste straight out on the
ground, rather than putting it as i do in an enclosed compost barrel.to do its
stuff.
> Fran k
> Robert Howes wrote:
>>       Why do we live in little boxes?  It kinda makes sense for a family to
live together in a few rooms (living room, kitchen, bathroom and bedrooms), and
it's traditional. .  But is it suitable to our real needs?  I don't think it is.
For socialism to take over this society with all of its housing, as is, would
put a great strain on the first few decades of socialism as the housing stock
gradually deteriorated.
>> ***
>> In theory you would patch up your own house or get the trades persons in to
do it, for free.  But with a couple of billion homes to maintain and in many
millions of cases to build from scratch for the millions that are at present
homeless or living in squalor will take a massive army of brickies, chippies,
electricians, plumbers, roofers, labourers and so on.  Also the supply of
building materials would have to be stepped up greatly.  And that is just to
carry on as we are.
>> ***
>> But as I said, are little boxes what people will want in a socialist world? 
I think not.  Why did we start living this way.  Well it made sense at the time.
Back in the old days when there were very few humans on a very large planet you
would find a cave to live in, or a tree, or you'd build a mud hut.  But caves
can be damp, and they are dark, and there aren't enough of them to go around. 
Also, as people developed agriculture they needed to be right by the land.  A
tribe would build a few small huts and one big hut..  The small huts would give
more privacy, the big huts were good for socialising.
>> ***
>> As we industrialised we created towns where the butcher, baker, candlestick
maker were all close to each other, and as we further industrialised we needed
the workers accommodation to be next to the dark satanic mills.  Labout was
cheap and building control non-existant, and a house could be built in a day
(they normally took a couple of weeks).  No other thought was put into it until
Ebenezer Howard built Letchworth and later Welwyn Garden Cities and brought in
the garden cities movement.
>> ***
>> The Garden Cities organisation became the TCPA (Town & Country Planning
Association) of which I am a member.  Unfortunately the TCPA is in some senses
backward looking, still wedded to the idea of family homes..  But what of the
future?  What form will the family take in a socialist world?  When the
relationship between worker and work might be entirely different from the
present, when everyone in the world is free to move around without any border
controls or financial impediment, what sort of housing and transport systems and
work places will satisfy their needs?
>> ***
>> I have so often imagined the future and how it might operate that I have
developed various ideas to answer these questions.  And there is no need to wait
until the overwhelming majority are in favour of socialism, we can start
building the future right now, pull the world out of recession, show what
socialist thought really can do, attract more people to the socialist mode of
thinking and cause a snowball effect resulting in socialism in the shortest time
possible.  How can anyone argue with that?
>> ***
>> Any questions?
>> Cheers,
>> Bob
>> ***
>>
>

I met a guy at Hampton Court Flower Show about 3 or 4 years ago who
has the (UK) National Collection of Rubus (whatever that means),
anyway he was showing a lot of them on a stand at the show.  I think
he was based in Hampshire.
It was an absolutely fascinating display that he had, with a huge
variety of plant types - small, huge, climbing, prostrate, fruiting,
prickly, smooth, etc.  All sorts.  Very inspiring. Some were labelled
as very rare. Some were for sale.
I believe he said the capacity of plants to hybridise was very
strong, and he knew he only had a small proportion of examples.
Griselda



On 20 Jun 2009, at 20:09, mentha_man wrote:

>
>
> I think they are the best of the Rubus species. I read they are
> more raspberry than blackberry but they do have juiciness of the
> blackberry. I keep thinking they remind me of a marionberry.
>
> It get the tay berry, marion berry, logan berry and boysenberry
> mixed up. I know the flavors are quite different too. Can people
> describe the wine berry for me. I vaguelly remember a rich complex
> flavor the most.
>
> Has anyone created a flavor classification system by chance?
>
> Adam
>
>


The news isn't that fruits and vegetables are good for you ~ it's
that they are so good for you they could save your life.
                         By David Bjerklie, TIME Magazine, October 20,
2003
Juice PLUS+ Capsules contain 17 fruits, vegetables, oats and grains.
The ingredients are apples, cranberries, dates, oranges, papaya,
peaches, pineapples, beets, broccoli, carrots, cabbage, kale,
tomatoes, parsley, garlic, spinach, rice bran (no gluten), and oats
(no gluten).
and ~ NEW - Juice PLUS+ Vineyard Blend adds Blueberries, Cranberries,
Concorde Grape, Blackberries, Bilberries, Grape Seed, Raspberry,
Elderberries, Red Currants, and Black Currants.
Check it out www.takejuiceplus.co.uk






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you live in England you can get truffles and mushrooms at
http://www.seedsofitaly.com/index.php

Jean




> >
> > In Samar we still have lots of trees in our forests. If I can't grow
> > the truffles in my basement, I will plant them in the forest.
> >
> > Thanks again, kind sir.
> >
> > Paz
>

Dear David:
             People who grow plants like squash should know that gourds and
peppers will cross over if they're planted right next to each other.
             Just so if any one plants different types of corn next to one
another such as Indian corn, pop corn, and or sweet corn.
             If you were to plant marigolds they will prevent some insects from
bothering the crops, it won't stop everything.
             Flour on cabbage will destroy the cabbage worms if they eat the
flour, they explode.
             I grew up on a working farm I know what I'm talking about as far as
the plants are concerned.
             Be well, Shavua Tov
Shalom, Shalom, Yosef
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: david.keltie@...
   To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 2:38 AM
   Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Soil [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus





   Squash grows great like this.
   david

   On 6/19/09, matthew@...
   <matthew@...> wrote:
   > I make compost/mulch areas, where I grow Mucuna, Canavailia, Winged-beans,
   > Ipomoea batatas, gourds and just chuck the other weed - refuse on top
   > (Sunflower, Maize, Sugar-cane, Cassava stalks (sugar-cane and cassava regrow
   > from the stalks) kitchen waste, sawdust, corn-cobs, rice straw, cinders,
   > goat, chicken, pig, cow shit etc.) The clambering plants grow over the
   > compost and any taller plants, smothering most weeds and keeping the compost
   > humid and aerated. When the clambering plants and supports have fruited,
   > uncomposted plant materials can be chopped and either planted/sown into or
   > moved to mulch a new bunch of weeds. Most weeds are easy to pull once the
   > soil is improved and humid (many weeds are pioneer plants and are not so
   > weedy in good soil conditions) and I have had no serious problems with
   > invasive plants. Some of the cultivated plants are invasive in their own
   > right, but seem easy enough to control - so far. Many of the plants in the
   > garden are native plants that returned by chance when the sugar-cane was
   > removed for planting. The soil was seriously compacted from having vehicles
   > full of rocks driving over it and cattle grazing during the rainy season,
   > most of the top-soil had been washed away, Now the garden is looking quite
   > lush, with only a few barer areas, where I have scatterings of peanuts and
   > other plants.
   > Paths are mulched, otherwise they become streams in rainy weather, and the
   > soil gets compacted. If I don't have a specific plan for any area, whatever
   > is growing there is encouraged to grow, with just my least favoured plants
   > pulled for mulch, so there are areas of Jute, Passionflowers, Moringa, Canna
   > edulis, Bamboo, chillis, Basella alba, lemon basil, somefrom people or
   > animals shitting in the garden, others are just local weeds often with
   > medicinal or food properties.
   >
   > Matt
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: david.keltie@...
   > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: 6/19/09 6:41 AM
   > Subject: Re: Soil Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
   >
   > Better still don't compost.! Return all organic matter to the soil as
   > mulch..
   > David
   >
   > On 6/18/09, matthew@...
   > wrote:
   >> Hi Frank,
   >>
   >> Yes, usually compost needs air, warmth, and humidity.
   >>
   >> If you started your compost bin in the winter, it may have been too cold
   >> for
   >> the composting processes to get started, then the materials got compacted,
   >> dry and airless as soil and more compost were addded on top. (There are
   >> probably no holes in the sides of your plastic drum, to let air in ? Could
   >> water get in to keep the humidity up ?)
   >>
   >> Reminds me of "Archeological" digs in landfill sites, because of the
   >> constant temperature, lack of air and little water, deep in landfill
   >> sites,
   >> organic materials are often preserved in perfect condition, more or less
   >> indefinitely; 50 year old sandwiches still perfectly preserved (for
   >> example).
   >>
   >> What I don't understand, with your bins, is that the bottom 2' to 2' 6"
   >> was
   >> the top couple of feet at some time, why didn't it compost then ?
   >>
   >> It is a good idea to have a little live compost already at the bottom of
   >> the
   >> bin. Don't add inert dirt on top of the compost, this will compact the
   >> organic materials and will probably not add anything useful.
   >>
   >> There are different worms at different depths of soil, 8" may be too deep
   >> for surface worms, and probably the soil under your bin is compacted,
   >> which
   >> worms don't like.
   >>
   >> Compost prefers a good mix of dry, and green, vegetable materials, 2 or 3%
   >> vegetarian, or omnivorous shit and potash or lime (alkaline material) also
   >> helps.
   >>
   >> The pieces to be composted should not be too large (logs, whole apples
   >> will
   >> compost much better as sawdust and pulp) and should be mixed to get the
   >> bio-chemical processes working.
   >>
   >> Fungi are very good at decomposing organic materials and mushroom kits are
   >> available that will help decompose your organic materials, provide edible
   >> mushrooms and help build symbiotic soil communities to improve mineral
   >> uptake by your plants.
   >>
   >> Real aerobic composting gets too hot for worms, and should get hot enough
   >> to
   >> kill weed seeds and some soil pathogens.
   >>
   >> I expect there are some answers to your question here - there is good
   >> composting information for most climates spread about the web.
   >>
   >> For larger gardens, 2 or 3 plastic drums with lids can make excellent
   >> compost very quickly, put some active compost in the bin and cover with a
   >> good mix of shredded compost materials, leave a week or so then roll the
   >> bin
   >> around, to mix everything up ( don't fill the bin, so it becomes
   >> unmoveable)
   >> once you get a system like this working, you can compost most garden waste
   >> in 3 or 4 weeks - always leave some compost in the bin to start the next
   >> batch. Cycle the bins so fresh material goes in one bin while another is
   >> sitting around composting.
   >>
   >> Matt
   >>
   >> ----- Original Message -----
   >> From: frank_bowman@...
   >> To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   >> Sent: 6/18/09 1:14 PM
   >> Subject: Soil Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
   >>
   >> Hello,
   >>
   >> This is a lazy question, and I am using this knowledgeable group to find
   >> it
   >> out if anyone knows. It may be perfectly obvious and simple.but I was
   >> reminded by this last email about soil.
   >>
   >> Two weeks ago, I saw and discovered in one of my compost bins which is a
   >> 2
   >> ft wide by 4 ft high plastic 45 gal drum, hasnt composted much below about
   >> 1.5 to 2 ft. The stuff on top is great well broken down into rich
   >> compost,
   >> but below that level, its taking its time, going very slowwwwwwwwww, and
   >> will take a lot longer.
   >>
   >> The way I do this compost is just as if the waste was put in the ground,
   >> the
   >> way compost does what it does naturally. the bottom of the drum has
   >> holes
   >> in it to let any worms in, and the drum is buried about 6-8", so it is
   >> connected into the ground. Every time I put kitchen waste in, I put a
   >> covering of soil on top, and so it goes till it reaches the top, then a
   >> few
   >> months later, quite soon, its all turned to compost, except as the penny
   >> dropped (Ive been doing it for quite a few years, I'm a bit slow) not very
   >> fast if at all below 1.5 - 2 ft.
   >>
   >> Someone suggested what I think is correct, that there is too little oxygen
   >> at that depth, and as the soil is living, the bugs and microbes, and worms
   >> just dont go there.
   >>
   >> That made me think. Mm, I wonder if that is the case with all soil. That
   >> the covering of the living material, the soil of life, is only 1.5 to 2 ft
   >> deep or a bit more, all over the earth.
   >>
   >> If it is, going from the email below, the concern about living soil loss,
   >> may not be as bad as we may believe it to be, as the depth that is needed
   >> can be quicker renewed given that supplies of water, are needed to bring
   >> life into it. If supplies and using swales etc, are available in areas
   >> where there has been a lot of soil loss.
   >>
   >> Just a question and a thought. Frank
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> ----- Original Message -----
   >> From: matthew@...
   >> To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 5:14 PM
   >> Subject: Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> ------------------------------------
   >>
   >> Yahoo! Groups Links
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >
   >
   > ------------------------------------
   >
   > Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
   > To visit your group on the web, go to:
   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf/
   >
   > Your email settings:
   > Individual Email | Traditional
   >
   > To change settings online go to:
   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf/join
   > (Yahoo! ID required)
   >
   > To change settings via email:
   > mailto:pfaf-digest@yahoogroups.com
   > mailto:pfaf-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
   >
   > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   > pfaf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
   >
   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
   > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >
   > ------------------------------------
   >
   > Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
   >
   >
   >




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear David and Frank:
             A compost pile will need moisture and air. You use air water and
vegetable matter, no animal bones or meat. Animal manure is expectable except
for dog or cat. Cattle, horse, sheep and or goats even that of rabbit, and
chicken but only sparingly. Chicken manure makes the pile extremely hot which
can cause a fire, that's not desired.
             Your composted material has to be cooked till you kill any germ and
bacteria.
             After that's been done you can take the cooled material use it on
any plants with out fear that you'll cause harm to another plant.
             Be well Shavua Tov.
Shalom, Shalom, Yosef
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: david.keltie@...
   To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 5:21 AM
   Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Soil Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus





   Better still don't compost.! Return all organic matter to the soil as mulch..
   David

   On 6/18/09, matthew@...
   <matthew@...> wrote:
   > Hi Frank,
   >
   > Yes, usually compost needs air, warmth, and humidity.
   >
   > If you started your compost bin in the winter, it may have been too cold for
   > the composting processes to get started, then the materials got compacted,
   > dry and airless as soil and more compost were addded on top. (There are
   > probably no holes in the sides of your plastic drum, to let air in ? Could
   > water get in to keep the humidity up ?)
   >
   > Reminds me of "Archeological" digs in landfill sites, because of the
   > constant temperature, lack of air and little water, deep in landfill sites,
   > organic materials are often preserved in perfect condition, more or less
   > indefinitely; 50 year old sandwiches still perfectly preserved (for
   > example).
   >
   > What I don't understand, with your bins, is that the bottom 2' to 2' 6" was
   > the top couple of feet at some time, why didn't it compost then ?
   >
   > It is a good idea to have a little live compost already at the bottom of the
   > bin. Don't add inert dirt on top of the compost, this will compact the
   > organic materials and will probably not add anything useful.
   >
   > There are different worms at different depths of soil, 8" may be too deep
   > for surface worms, and probably the soil under your bin is compacted, which
   > worms don't like.
   >
   > Compost prefers a good mix of dry, and green, vegetable materials, 2 or 3%
   > vegetarian, or omnivorous shit and potash or lime (alkaline material) also
   > helps.
   >
   > The pieces to be composted should not be too large (logs, whole apples will
   > compost much better as sawdust and pulp) and should be mixed to get the
   > bio-chemical processes working.
   >
   > Fungi are very good at decomposing organic materials and mushroom kits are
   > available that will help decompose your organic materials, provide edible
   > mushrooms and help build symbiotic soil communities to improve mineral
   > uptake by your plants.
   >
   > Real aerobic composting gets too hot for worms, and should get hot enough to
   > kill weed seeds and some soil pathogens.
   >
   > I expect there are some answers to your question here - there is good
   > composting information for most climates spread about the web.
   >
   > For larger gardens, 2 or 3 plastic drums with lids can make excellent
   > compost very quickly, put some active compost in the bin and cover with a
   > good mix of shredded compost materials, leave a week or so then roll the bin
   > around, to mix everything up ( don't fill the bin, so it becomes unmoveable)
   > once you get a system like this working, you can compost most garden waste
   > in 3 or 4 weeks - always leave some compost in the bin to start the next
   > batch. Cycle the bins so fresh material goes in one bin while another is
   > sitting around composting.
   >
   > Matt
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: frank_bowman@...
   > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: 6/18/09 1:14 PM
   > Subject: Soil Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
   >
   > Hello,
   >
   > This is a lazy question, and I am using this knowledgeable group to find it
   > out if anyone knows. It may be perfectly obvious and simple.but I was
   > reminded by this last email about soil.
   >
   > Two weeks ago, I saw and discovered in one of my compost bins which is a 2
   > ft wide by 4 ft high plastic 45 gal drum, hasnt composted much below about
   > 1.5 to 2 ft. The stuff on top is great well broken down into rich compost,
   > but below that level, its taking its time, going very slowwwwwwwwww, and
   > will take a lot longer.
   >
   > The way I do this compost is just as if the waste was put in the ground, the
   > way compost does what it does naturally. the bottom of the drum has holes
   > in it to let any worms in, and the drum is buried about 6-8", so it is
   > connected into the ground. Every time I put kitchen waste in, I put a
   > covering of soil on top, and so it goes till it reaches the top, then a few
   > months later, quite soon, its all turned to compost, except as the penny
   > dropped (Ive been doing it for quite a few years, I'm a bit slow) not very
   > fast if at all below 1.5 - 2 ft.
   >
   > Someone suggested what I think is correct, that there is too little oxygen
   > at that depth, and as the soil is living, the bugs and microbes, and worms
   > just dont go there.
   >
   > That made me think. Mm, I wonder if that is the case with all soil. That
   > the covering of the living material, the soil of life, is only 1.5 to 2 ft
   > deep or a bit more, all over the earth.
   >
   > If it is, going from the email below, the concern about living soil loss,
   > may not be as bad as we may believe it to be, as the depth that is needed
   > can be quicker renewed given that supplies of water, are needed to bring
   > life into it. If supplies and using swales etc, are available in areas
   > where there has been a lot of soil loss.
   >
   > Just a question and a thought. Frank
   >
   >
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: matthew@...
   > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 5:14 PM
   > Subject: Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >
   > ------------------------------------
   >
   > Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
   >
   >
   >




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have read that you can use carnivore waste, except that
it needs longer composting.

Mary Christine


In a message dated 6/21/2009 2:29:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
josepa2@... writes:

Animal  manure is expectable except for dog or  cat.

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steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323000x1201367220/aol?redir=http://\
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JunestepsfooterNO62)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Yosef,

Bill Mollison writes about dead animals composting in just a few weeks under
sheet mulching, he doesn't mention rats though, and (I presume) he is writing
about warmer parts of Australia. Many people don't put egg shells in compost, as
they are said to add nothing and attract rodents.

Matt

----- Original Message -----
From: josepa2@...
To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
Cc: josepa2@...
Sent: 6/21/09 5:29 PM
Subject: [pfaf] To compost or not to compost.

         Dear David and Frank:
             A compost pile will need moisture and air. You use air water and
vegetable matter, no animal bones or meat. Animal manure is expectable except
for dog or cat. Cattle, horse, sheep and or goats even that of rabbit, and
chicken but only sparingly. Chicken manure makes the pile extremely hot which
can cause a fire, that's not desired.
             Your composted material has to be cooked till you kill any germ and
bacteria.
             After that's been done you can take the cooled material use it on
any plants with out fear that you'll cause harm to another plant.
             Be well Shavua Tov.
Shalom, Shalom, Yosef
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: david.keltie@...
   To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 5:21 AM
   Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Soil Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus





   Better still don't compost.! Return all organic matter to the soil as mulch..
   David

   On 6/18/09, matthew@...
    wrote:
   > Hi Frank,
   >
   > Yes, usually compost needs air, warmth, and humidity.
   >
   > If you started your compost bin in the winter, it may have been too cold for
   > the composting processes to get started, then the materials got compacted,
   > dry and airless as soil and more compost were addded on top. (There are
   > probably no holes in the sides of your plastic drum, to let air in ? Could
   > water get in to keep the humidity up ?)
   >
   > Reminds me of "Archeological" digs in landfill sites, because of the
   > constant temperature, lack of air and little water, deep in landfill sites,
   > organic materials are often preserved in perfect condition, more or less
   > indefinitely; 50 year old sandwiches still perfectly preserved (for
   > example).
   >
   > What I don't understand, with your bins, is that the bottom 2' to 2' 6" was
   > the top couple of feet at some time, why didn't it compost then ?
   >
   > It is a good idea to have a little live compost already at the bottom of the
   > bin. Don't add inert dirt on top of the compost, this will compact the
   > organic materials and will probably not add anything useful.
   >
   > There are different worms at different depths of soil, 8" may be too deep
   > for surface worms, and probably the soil under your bin is compacted, which
   > worms don't like.
   >
   > Compost prefers a good mix of dry, and green, vegetable materials, 2 or 3%
   > vegetarian, or omnivorous shit and potash or lime (alkaline material) also
   > helps.
   >
   > The pieces to be composted should not be too large (logs, whole apples will
   > compost much better as sawdust and pulp) and should be mixed to get the
   > bio-chemical processes working.
   >
   > Fungi are very good at decomposing organic materials and mushroom kits are
   > available that will help decompose your organic materials, provide edible
   > mushrooms and help build symbiotic soil communities to improve mineral
   > uptake by your plants.
   >
   > Real aerobic composting gets too hot for worms, and should get hot enough to
   > kill weed seeds and some soil pathogens.
   >
   > I expect there are some answers to your question here - there is good
   > composting information for most climates spread about the web.
   >
   > For larger gardens, 2 or 3 plastic drums with lids can make excellent
   > compost very quickly, put some active compost in the bin and cover with a
   > good mix of shredded compost materials, leave a week or so then roll the bin
   > around, to mix everything up ( don't fill the bin, so it becomes unmoveable)
   > once you get a system like this working, you can compost most garden waste
   > in 3 or 4 weeks - always leave some compost in the bin to start the next
   > batch. Cycle the bins so fresh material goes in one bin while another is
   > sitting around composting.
   >
   > Matt
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: frank_bowman@...
   > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: 6/18/09 1:14 PM
   > Subject: Soil Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
   >
   > Hello,
   >
   > This is a lazy question, and I am using this knowledgeable group to find it
   > out if anyone knows. It may be perfectly obvious and simple.but I was
   > reminded by this last email about soil.
   >
   > Two weeks ago, I saw and discovered in one of my compost bins which is a 2
   > ft wide by 4 ft high plastic 45 gal drum, hasnt composted much below about
   > 1.5 to 2 ft. The stuff on top is great well broken down into rich compost,
   > but below that level, its taking its time, going very slowwwwwwwwww, and
   > will take a lot longer.
   >
   > The way I do this compost is just as if the waste was put in the ground, the
   > way compost does what it does naturally. the bottom of the drum has holes
   > in it to let any worms in, and the drum is buried about 6-8", so it is
   > connected into the ground. Every time I put kitchen waste in, I put a
   > covering of soil on top, and so it goes till it reaches the top, then a few
   > months later, quite soon, its all turned to compost, except as the penny
   > dropped (Ive been doing it for quite a few years, I'm a bit slow) not very
   > fast if at all below 1.5 - 2 ft.
   >
   > Someone suggested what I think is correct, that there is too little oxygen
   > at that depth, and as the soil is living, the bugs and microbes, and worms
   > just dont go there.
   >
   > That made me think. Mm, I wonder if that is the case with all soil. That
   > the covering of the living material, the soil of life, is only 1.5 to 2 ft
   > deep or a bit more, all over the earth.
   >
   > If it is, going from the email below, the concern about living soil loss,
   > may not be as bad as we may believe it to be, as the depth that is needed
   > can be quicker renewed given that supplies of water, are needed to bring
   > life into it. If supplies and using swales etc, are available in areas
   > where there has been a lot of soil loss.
   >
   > Just a question and a thought. Frank
   >
   >
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: matthew@...
   > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 5:14 PM
   > Subject: Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >
   > ------------------------------------
   >
   > Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
   >
   >
   >




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Yosef,

Sweet corn will cross fertilize if pollen is carried on the air from one plant
to flowers on another, so if the plants are not too close, or sown with a few
weeks apart, you should be OK. Not all gourds and peppers are compatible with
all other gourds and peppers, so pollinating insects will not fertilize between
Capsicum annuum and Capsicum pubescens (for example). As pollinating insects can
travel quite far it is handy to know which plants can be grown near each other
without crossing (and to keep an eye on your neighbour's plants).

Matt

----- Original Message -----
From: josepa2@...
To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
Cc: josepa2@...
Sent: 6/21/09 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Soil [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus

         Dear David:
             People who grow plants like squash should know that gourds and
peppers will cross over if they're planted right next to each other.
             Just so if any one plants different types of corn next to one
another such as Indian corn, pop corn, and or sweet corn.
             If you were to plant marigolds they will prevent some insects from
bothering the crops, it won't stop everything.
             Flour on cabbage will destroy the cabbage worms if they eat the
flour, they explode.
             I grew up on a working farm I know what I'm talking about as far as
the plants are concerned.
             Be well, Shavua Tov
Shalom, Shalom, Yosef
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: david.keltie@...
   To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 2:38 AM
   Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Soil [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus





   Squash grows great like this.
   david

   On 6/19/09, matthew@...
    wrote:
   > I make compost/mulch areas, where I grow Mucuna, Canavailia, Winged-beans,
   > Ipomoea batatas, gourds and just chuck the other weed - refuse on top
   > (Sunflower, Maize, Sugar-cane, Cassava stalks (sugar-cane and cassava regrow
   > from the stalks) kitchen waste, sawdust, corn-cobs, rice straw, cinders,
   > goat, chicken, pig, cow shit etc.) The clambering plants grow over the
   > compost and any taller plants, smothering most weeds and keeping the compost
   > humid and aerated. When the clambering plants and supports have fruited,
   > uncomposted plant materials can be chopped and either planted/sown into or
   > moved to mulch a new bunch of weeds. Most weeds are easy to pull once the
   > soil is improved and humid (many weeds are pioneer plants and are not so
   > weedy in good soil conditions) and I have had no serious problems with
   > invasive plants. Some of the cultivated plants are invasive in their own
   > right, but seem easy enough to control - so far. Many of the plants in the
   > garden are native plants that returned by chance when the sugar-cane was
   > removed for planting. The soil was seriously compacted from having vehicles
   > full of rocks driving over it and cattle grazing during the rainy season,
   > most of the top-soil had been washed away, Now the garden is looking quite
   > lush, with only a few barer areas, where I have scatterings of peanuts and
   > other plants.
   > Paths are mulched, otherwise they become streams in rainy weather, and the
   > soil gets compacted. If I don't have a specific plan for any area, whatever
   > is growing there is encouraged to grow, with just my least favoured plants
   > pulled for mulch, so there are areas of Jute, Passionflowers, Moringa, Canna
   > edulis, Bamboo, chillis, Basella alba, lemon basil, somefrom people or
   > animals shitting in the garden, others are just local weeds often with
   > medicinal or food properties.
   >
   > Matt
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: david.keltie@...
   > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: 6/19/09 6:41 AM
   > Subject: Re: Soil Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
   >
   > Better still don't compost.! Return all organic matter to the soil as
   > mulch..
   > David
   >
   > On 6/18/09, matthew@...
   > wrote:
   >> Hi Frank,
   >>
   >> Yes, usually compost needs air, warmth, and humidity.
   >>
   >> If you started your compost bin in the winter, it may have been too cold
   >> for
   >> the composting processes to get started, then the materials got compacted,
   >> dry and airless as soil and more compost were addded on top. (There are
   >> probably no holes in the sides of your plastic drum, to let air in ? Could
   >> water get in to keep the humidity up ?)
   >>
   >> Reminds me of "Archeological" digs in landfill sites, because of the
   >> constant temperature, lack of air and little water, deep in landfill
   >> sites,
   >> organic materials are often preserved in perfect condition, more or less
   >> indefinitely; 50 year old sandwiches still perfectly preserved (for
   >> example).
   >>
   >> What I don't understand, with your bins, is that the bottom 2' to 2' 6"
   >> was
   >> the top couple of feet at some time, why didn't it compost then ?
   >>
   >> It is a good idea to have a little live compost already at the bottom of
   >> the
   >> bin. Don't add inert dirt on top of the compost, this will compact the
   >> organic materials and will probably not add anything useful.
   >>
   >> There are different worms at different depths of soil, 8" may be too deep
   >> for surface worms, and probably the soil under your bin is compacted,
   >> which
   >> worms don't like.
   >>
   >> Compost prefers a good mix of dry, and green, vegetable materials, 2 or 3%
   >> vegetarian, or omnivorous shit and potash or lime (alkaline material) also
   >> helps.
   >>
   >> The pieces to be composted should not be too large (logs, whole apples
   >> will
   >> compost much better as sawdust and pulp) and should be mixed to get the
   >> bio-chemical processes working.
   >>
   >> Fungi are very good at decomposing organic materials and mushroom kits are
   >> available that will help decompose your organic materials, provide edible
   >> mushrooms and help build symbiotic soil communities to improve mineral
   >> uptake by your plants.
   >>
   >> Real aerobic composting gets too hot for worms, and should get hot enough
   >> to
   >> kill weed seeds and some soil pathogens.
   >>
   >> I expect there are some answers to your question here - there is good
   >> composting information for most climates spread about the web.
   >>
   >> For larger gardens, 2 or 3 plastic drums with lids can make excellent
   >> compost very quickly, put some active compost in the bin and cover with a
   >> good mix of shredded compost materials, leave a week or so then roll the
   >> bin
   >> around, to mix everything up ( don't fill the bin, so it becomes
   >> unmoveable)
   >> once you get a system like this working, you can compost most garden waste
   >> in 3 or 4 weeks - always leave some compost in the bin to start the next
   >> batch. Cycle the bins so fresh material goes in one bin while another is
   >> sitting around composting.
   >>
   >> Matt
   >>
   >> ----- Original Message -----
   >> From: frank_bowman@...
   >> To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   >> Sent: 6/18/09 1:14 PM
   >> Subject: Soil Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
   >>
   >> Hello,
   >>
   >> This is a lazy question, and I am using this knowledgeable group to find
   >> it
   >> out if anyone knows. It may be perfectly obvious and simple.but I was
   >> reminded by this last email about soil.
   >>
   >> Two weeks ago, I saw and discovered in one of my compost bins which is a
   >> 2
   >> ft wide by 4 ft high plastic 45 gal drum, hasnt composted much below about
   >> 1.5 to 2 ft. The stuff on top is great well broken down into rich
   >> compost,
   >> but below that level, its taking its time, going very slowwwwwwwwww, and
   >> will take a lot longer.
   >>
   >> The way I do this compost is just as if the waste was put in the ground,
   >> the
   >> way compost does what it does naturally. the bottom of the drum has
   >> holes
   >> in it to let any worms in, and the drum is buried about 6-8", so it is
   >> connected into the ground. Every time I put kitchen waste in, I put a
   >> covering of soil on top, and so it goes till it reaches the top, then a
   >> few
   >> months later, quite soon, its all turned to compost, except as the penny
   >> dropped (Ive been doing it for quite a few years, I'm a bit slow) not very
   >> fast if at all below 1.5 - 2 ft.
   >>
   >> Someone suggested what I think is correct, that there is too little oxygen
   >> at that depth, and as the soil is living, the bugs and microbes, and worms
   >> just dont go there.
   >>
   >> That made me think. Mm, I wonder if that is the case with all soil. That
   >> the covering of the living material, the soil of life, is only 1.5 to 2 ft
   >> deep or a bit more, all over the earth.
   >>
   >> If it is, going from the email below, the concern about living soil loss,
   >> may not be as bad as we may believe it to be, as the depth that is needed
   >> can be quicker renewed given that supplies of water, are needed to bring
   >> life into it. If supplies and using swales etc, are available in areas
   >> where there has been a lot of soil loss.
   >>
   >> Just a question and a thought. Frank
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> ----- Original Message -----
   >> From: matthew@...
   >> To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 5:14 PM
   >> Subject: Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> ------------------------------------
   >>
   >> Yahoo! Groups Links
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >
   >
   > ------------------------------------
   >
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Composting is unnecessary - just return all organic matter directly to
the surface of the soil.
David

On 6/21/09, Joseph A. Cleary <josepa2@...> wrote:
>         Dear David and Frank:
>             A compost pile will need moisture and air. You use air water and
> vegetable matter, no animal bones or meat. Animal manure is expectable
> except for dog or cat. Cattle, horse, sheep and or goats even that of
> rabbit, and chicken but only sparingly. Chicken manure makes the pile
> extremely hot which can cause a fire, that's not desired.
>             Your composted material has to be cooked till you kill any germ
> and bacteria.
>             After that's been done you can take the cooled material use it
> on any plants with out fear that you'll cause harm to another plant.
>             Be well Shavua Tov.
> Shalom, Shalom, Yosef
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: david.keltie@...
>   To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 5:21 AM
>   Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Soil Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
>
>
>
>
>
>   Better still don't compost.! Return all organic matter to the soil as
> mulch..
>   David
>
>   On 6/18/09, matthew@...
>   <matthew@...> wrote:
>   > Hi Frank,
>   >
>   > Yes, usually compost needs air, warmth, and humidity.
>   >
>   > If you started your compost bin in the winter, it may have been too cold
> for
>   > the composting processes to get started, then the materials got
> compacted,
>   > dry and airless as soil and more compost were addded on top. (There are
>   > probably no holes in the sides of your plastic drum, to let air in ?
> Could
>   > water get in to keep the humidity up ?)
>   >
>   > Reminds me of "Archeological" digs in landfill sites, because of the
>   > constant temperature, lack of air and little water, deep in landfill
> sites,
>   > organic materials are often preserved in perfect condition, more or less
>   > indefinitely; 50 year old sandwiches still perfectly preserved (for
>   > example).
>   >
>   > What I don't understand, with your bins, is that the bottom 2' to 2' 6"
> was
>   > the top couple of feet at some time, why didn't it compost then ?
>   >
>   > It is a good idea to have a little live compost already at the bottom of
> the
>   > bin. Don't add inert dirt on top of the compost, this will compact the
>   > organic materials and will probably not add anything useful.
>   >
>   > There are different worms at different depths of soil, 8" may be too
> deep
>   > for surface worms, and probably the soil under your bin is compacted,
> which
>   > worms don't like.
>   >
>   > Compost prefers a good mix of dry, and green, vegetable materials, 2 or
> 3%
>   > vegetarian, or omnivorous shit and potash or lime (alkaline material)
> also
>   > helps.
>   >
>   > The pieces to be composted should not be too large (logs, whole apples
> will
>   > compost much better as sawdust and pulp) and should be mixed to get the
>   > bio-chemical processes working.
>   >
>   > Fungi are very good at decomposing organic materials and mushroom kits
> are
>   > available that will help decompose your organic materials, provide
> edible
>   > mushrooms and help build symbiotic soil communities to improve mineral
>   > uptake by your plants.
>   >
>   > Real aerobic composting gets too hot for worms, and should get hot
> enough to
>   > kill weed seeds and some soil pathogens.
>   >
>   > I expect there are some answers to your question here - there is good
>   > composting information for most climates spread about the web.
>   >
>   > For larger gardens, 2 or 3 plastic drums with lids can make excellent
>   > compost very quickly, put some active compost in the bin and cover with
> a
>   > good mix of shredded compost materials, leave a week or so then roll the
> bin
>   > around, to mix everything up ( don't fill the bin, so it becomes
> unmoveable)
>   > once you get a system like this working, you can compost most garden
> waste
>   > in 3 or 4 weeks - always leave some compost in the bin to start the next
>   > batch. Cycle the bins so fresh material goes in one bin while another is
>   > sitting around composting.
>   >
>   > Matt
>   >
>   > ----- Original Message -----
>   > From: frank_bowman@...
>   > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
>   > Sent: 6/18/09 1:14 PM
>   > Subject: Soil Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
>   >
>   > Hello,
>   >
>   > This is a lazy question, and I am using this knowledgeable group to find
> it
>   > out if anyone knows. It may be perfectly obvious and simple.but I was
>   > reminded by this last email about soil.
>   >
>   > Two weeks ago, I saw and discovered in one of my compost bins which is a
> 2
>   > ft wide by 4 ft high plastic 45 gal drum, hasnt composted much below
> about
>   > 1.5 to 2 ft. The stuff on top is great well broken down into rich
> compost,
>   > but below that level, its taking its time, going very slowwwwwwwwww, and
>   > will take a lot longer.
>   >
>   > The way I do this compost is just as if the waste was put in the ground,
> the
>   > way compost does what it does naturally. the bottom of the drum has
> holes
>   > in it to let any worms in, and the drum is buried about 6-8", so it is
>   > connected into the ground. Every time I put kitchen waste in, I put a
>   > covering of soil on top, and so it goes till it reaches the top, then a
> few
>   > months later, quite soon, its all turned to compost, except as the penny
>   > dropped (Ive been doing it for quite a few years, I'm a bit slow) not
> very
>   > fast if at all below 1.5 - 2 ft.
>   >
>   > Someone suggested what I think is correct, that there is too little
> oxygen
>   > at that depth, and as the soil is living, the bugs and microbes, and
> worms
>   > just dont go there.
>   >
>   > That made me think. Mm, I wonder if that is the case with all soil. That
>   > the covering of the living material, the soil of life, is only 1.5 to 2
> ft
>   > deep or a bit more, all over the earth.
>   >
>   > If it is, going from the email below, the concern about living soil
> loss,
>   > may not be as bad as we may believe it to be, as the depth that is
> needed
>   > can be quicker renewed given that supplies of water, are needed to bring
>   > life into it. If supplies and using swales etc, are available in areas
>   > where there has been a lot of soil loss.
>   >
>   > Just a question and a thought. Frank
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > ----- Original Message -----
>   > From: matthew@...
>   > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
>   > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 5:14 PM
>   > Subject: Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > ------------------------------------
>   >
>   > Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Yep. After all the anything going on the soil, gets turned into soil!. The soil
cack of worms and bugs in the soil. And they are animals. In fact one could more
or less say soil is composed totally of cack. Its magic stuff, all.  bug and
worm cack. That makes veg. That makes us. Magic spiritual or what!
Honour the cack, the soil!.

david.keltie@... wrote:
>       Composting is unnecessary - just return all organic matter directly to
> the surface of the soil.
> David
> On 6/21/09, Joseph A. Cleary < josepa2@sbcglobal. net > wrote:
>>         Dear David and Frank:
>>             A compost pile will need moisture and air. You use air water and
>> vegetable matter, no animal bones or meat. Animal manure is expectable
>> except for dog or cat. Cattle, horse, sheep and or goats even that of
>> rabbit, and chicken but only sparingly. Chicken manure makes the pile
>> extremely hot which can cause a fire, that's not desired.
>>             Your composted material has to be cooked till you kill any germ
>> and bacteria.
>>             After that's been done you can take the cooled material use it
>> on any plants with out fear that you'll cause harm to another plant.
>>             Be well Shavua Tov.
>> Shalom, Shalom, Yosef
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: david.keltie@ gmail.com
>>   To: pfaf@yahoogroups. com
>>   Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 5:21 AM
>>   Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Soil Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   Better still don't compost.! Return all organic matter to the soil as
>> mulch..
>>   David
>>
>>   On 6/18/09, matthew@b-and- t-world-seeds. com
>>   < matthew@b-and- t-world-seeds. com > wrote:
>>   > Hi Frank,
>>   >
>>   > Yes, usually compost needs air, warmth, and humidity.
>>   >
>>   > If you started your compost bin in the winter, it may have been too cold
>> for
>>   > the composting processes to get started, then the materials got
>> compacted,
>>   > dry and airless as soil and more compost were addded on top. (There are
>>   > probably no holes in the sides of your plastic drum, to let air in ?
>> Could
>>   > water get in to keep the humidity up ?)
>>   >
>>   > Reminds me of "Archeological" digs in landfill sites, because of the
>>   > constant temperature, lack of air and little water, deep in landfill
>> sites,
>>   > organic materials are often preserved in perfect condition, more or less
>>   > indefinitely; 50 year old sandwiches still perfectly preserved (for
>>   > example).
>>   >
>>   > What I don't understand, with your bins, is that the bottom 2' to 2' 6"
>> was
>>   > the top couple of feet at some time, why didn't it compost then ?
>>   >
>>   > It is a good idea to have a little live compost already at the bottom of
>> the
>>   > bin. Don't add inert dirt on top of the compost, this will compact the
>>   > organic materials and will probably not add anything useful.
>>   >
>>   > There are different worms at different depths of soil, 8" may be too
>> deep
>>   > for surface worms, and probably the soil under your bin is compacted,
>> which
>>   > worms don't like.
>>   >
>>   > Compost prefers a good mix of dry, and green, vegetable materials, 2 or
>> 3%
>>   > vegetarian, or omnivorous shit and potash or lime (alkaline material)
>> also
>>   > helps.
>>   >
>>   > The pieces to be composted should not be too large (logs, whole apples
>> will
>>   > compost much better as sawdust and pulp) and should be mixed to get the
>>   > bio-chemical processes working.
>>   >
>>   > Fungi are very good at decomposing organic materials and mushroom kits
>> are
>>   > available that will help decompose your organic materials, provide
>> edible
>>   > mushrooms and help build symbiotic soil communities to improve mineral
>>   > uptake by your plants.
>>   >
>>   > Real aerobic composting gets too hot for worms, and should get hot
>> enough to
>>   > kill weed seeds and some soil pathogens.
>>   >
>>   > I expect there are some answers to your question here - there is good
>>   > composting information for most climates spread about the web.
>>   >
>>   > For larger gardens, 2 or 3 plastic drums with lids can make excellent
>>   > compost very quickly, put some active compost in the bin and cover with
>> a
>>   > good mix of shredded compost materials, leave a week or so then roll the
>> bin
>>   > around, to mix everything up ( don't fill the bin, so it becomes
>> unmoveable)
>>   > once you get a system like this working, you can compost most garden
>> waste
>>   > in 3 or 4 weeks - always leave some compost in the bin to start the next
>>   > batch. Cycle the bins so fresh material goes in one bin while another is
>>   > sitting around composting..
>>   >
>>   > Matt
>>   >
>>   > ----- Original Message -----
>>   > From: frank_bowman@ yahoo.co. uk
>>   > To: pfaf@yahoogroups. com
>>   > Sent: 6/18/09 1:14 PM
>>   > Subject: Soil Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
>>   >
>>   > Hello,
>>   >
>>   > This is a lazy question, and I am using this knowledgeable group to find
>> it
>>   > out if anyone knows. It may be perfectly obvious and simple.but I was
>>   > reminded by this last email about soil.
>>   >
>>   > Two weeks ago, I saw and discovered in one of my compost bins which is a
>> 2
>>   > ft wide by 4 ft high plastic 45 gal drum, hasnt composted much below
>> about
>>   > 1.5 to 2 ft. The stuff on top is great well broken down into rich
>> compost,
>>   > but below that level, its taking its time, going very slowwwwwwwwww, and
>>   > will take a lot longer.
>>   >
>>   > The way I do this compost is just as if the waste was put in the ground,
>> the
>>   > way compost does what it does naturally. the bottom of the drum has
>> holes
>>   > in it to let any worms in, and the drum is buried about 6-8", so it is
>>   > connected into the ground. Every time I put kitchen waste in, I put a
>>   > covering of soil on top, and so it goes till it reaches the top, then a
>> few
>>   > months later, quite soon, its all turned to compost, except as the penny
>>   > dropped (Ive been doing it for quite a few years, I'm a bit slow) not
>> very
>>   > fast if at all below 1.5 - 2 ft.
>>   >
>>   > Someone suggested what I think is correct, that there is too little
>> oxygen
>>   > at that depth, and as the soil is living, the bugs and microbes, and
>> worms
>>   > just dont go there.
>>   >
>>   > That made me think. Mm, I wonder if that is the case with all soil. That
>>   > the covering of the living material, the soil of life, is only 1.5 to 2
>> ft
>>   > deep or a bit more, all over the earth.
>>   >
>>   > If it is, going from the email below, the concern about living soil
>> loss,
>>   > may not be as bad as we may believe it to be, as the depth that is
>> needed
>>   > can be quicker renewed given that supplies of water, are needed to bring
>>   > life into it. If supplies and using swales etc, are available in areas
>>   > where there has been a lot of soil loss.
>>   >
>>   > Just a question and a thought. Frank
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > ----- Original Message -----
>>   > From: matthew@b-and- t-world-seeds. com
>>   > To: pfaf@yahoogroups. com
>>   > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 5:14 PM
>>   > Subject: Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > ------------ --------- --------- ------
>>   >
>>   > Yahoo! Groups Links
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Dear Matthew:
             I only know what I've seen. I've seen people plant three grades of
corn in the same areas as a result they had hard sweet corn, pop corn that
wouldn't pop.
             They had tomatoes that were hot and guards that had a flavor and
aroma of tomatoes and squash.
             I can't speak for your ground or your bugs. I only know that I get
along better with plants rather than people, as I've never been cussed out by a
plant as yet. People are another matter.
             Yet to understand I never complain, it's not my way.
             I wish you and yours well.
             Shavua Tov.
Shalom, Shalom,  Yosef
PS I've been told that there shall be a boycott of all Israeli products, I and
others like me will purchase everything we are able. Shalom, again.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: matthew@...
   To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 5:06 PM
   Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Soil [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus





   Dear Yosef,

   Sweet corn will cross fertilize if pollen is carried on the air from one plant
to flowers on another, so if the plants are not too close, or sown with a few
weeks apart, you should be OK. Not all gourds and peppers are compatible with
all other gourds and peppers, so pollinating insects will not fertilize between
Capsicum annuum and Capsicum pubescens (for example). As pollinating insects can
travel quite far it is handy to know which plants can be grown near each other
without crossing (and to keep an eye on your neighbour's plants).

   Matt

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: josepa2@...
   To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   Cc: josepa2@...
   Sent: 6/21/09 5:28 PM
   Subject: Re: Re: Soil [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus

   Dear David:
   People who grow plants like squash should know that gourds and peppers will
cross over if they're planted right next to each other.
   Just so if any one plants different types of corn next to one another such as
Indian corn, pop corn, and or sweet corn.
   If you were to plant marigolds they will prevent some insects from bothering
the crops, it won't stop everything.
   Flour on cabbage will destroy the cabbage worms if they eat the flour, they
explode.
   I grew up on a working farm I know what I'm talking about as far as the plants
are concerned.
   Be well, Shavua Tov
   Shalom, Shalom, Yosef
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: david.keltie@...
   To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 2:38 AM
   Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Soil [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus

   Squash grows great like this.
   david

   On 6/19/09, matthew@...
   wrote:
   > I make compost/mulch areas, where I grow Mucuna, Canavailia, Winged-beans,
   > Ipomoea batatas, gourds and just chuck the other weed - refuse on top
   > (Sunflower, Maize, Sugar-cane, Cassava stalks (sugar-cane and cassava regrow
   > from the stalks) kitchen waste, sawdust, corn-cobs, rice straw, cinders,
   > goat, chicken, pig, cow shit etc.) The clambering plants grow over the
   > compost and any taller plants, smothering most weeds and keeping the compost
   > humid and aerated. When the clambering plants and supports have fruited,
   > uncomposted plant materials can be chopped and either planted/sown into or
   > moved to mulch a new bunch of weeds. Most weeds are easy to pull once the
   > soil is improved and humid (many weeds are pioneer plants and are not so
   > weedy in good soil conditions) and I have had no serious problems with
   > invasive plants. Some of the cultivated plants are invasive in their own
   > right, but seem easy enough to control - so far. Many of the plants in the
   > garden are native plants that returned by chance when the sugar-cane was
   > removed for planting. The soil was seriously compacted from having vehicles
   > full of rocks driving over it and cattle grazing during the rainy season,
   > most of the top-soil had been washed away, Now the garden is looking quite
   > lush, with only a few barer areas, where I have scatterings of peanuts and
   > other plants.
   > Paths are mulched, otherwise they become streams in rainy weather, and the
   > soil gets compacted. If I don't have a specific plan for any area, whatever
   > is growing there is encouraged to grow, with just my least favoured plants
   > pulled for mulch, so there are areas of Jute, Passionflowers, Moringa, Canna
   > edulis, Bamboo, chillis, Basella alba, lemon basil, somefrom people or
   > animals shitting in the garden, others are just local weeds often with
   > medicinal or food properties.
   >
   > Matt
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: david.keltie@...
   > To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: 6/19/09 6:41 AM
   > Subject: Re: Soil Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
   >
   > Better still don't compost.! Return all organic matter to the soil as
   > mulch..
   > David
   >
   > On 6/18/09, matthew@...
   > wrote:
   >> Hi Frank,
   >>
   >> Yes, usually compost needs air, warmth, and humidity.
   >>
   >> If you started your compost bin in the winter, it may have been too cold
   >> for
   >> the composting processes to get started, then the materials got compacted,
   >> dry and airless as soil and more compost were addded on top. (There are
   >> probably no holes in the sides of your plastic drum, to let air in ? Could
   >> water get in to keep the humidity up ?)
   >>
   >> Reminds me of "Archeological" digs in landfill sites, because of the
   >> constant temperature, lack of air and little water, deep in landfill
   >> sites,
   >> organic materials are often preserved in perfect condition, more or less
   >> indefinitely; 50 year old sandwiches still perfectly preserved (for
   >> example).
   >>
   >> What I don't understand, with your bins, is that the bottom 2' to 2' 6"
   >> was
   >> the top couple of feet at some time, why didn't it compost then ?
   >>
   >> It is a good idea to have a little live compost already at the bottom of
   >> the
   >> bin. Don't add inert dirt on top of the compost, this will compact the
   >> organic materials and will probably not add anything useful.
   >>
   >> There are different worms at different depths of soil, 8" may be too deep
   >> for surface worms, and probably the soil under your bin is compacted,
   >> which
   >> worms don't like.
   >>
   >> Compost prefers a good mix of dry, and green, vegetable materials, 2 or 3%
   >> vegetarian, or omnivorous shit and potash or lime (alkaline material) also
   >> helps.
   >>
   >> The pieces to be composted should not be too large (logs, whole apples
   >> will
   >> compost much better as sawdust and pulp) and should be mixed to get the
   >> bio-chemical processes working.
   >>
   >> Fungi are very good at decomposing organic materials and mushroom kits are
   >> available that will help decompose your organic materials, provide edible
   >> mushrooms and help build symbiotic soil communities to improve mineral
   >> uptake by your plants.
   >>
   >> Real aerobic composting gets too hot for worms, and should get hot enough
   >> to
   >> kill weed seeds and some soil pathogens.
   >>
   >> I expect there are some answers to your question here - there is good
   >> composting information for most climates spread about the web.
   >>
   >> For larger gardens, 2 or 3 plastic drums with lids can make excellent
   >> compost very quickly, put some active compost in the bin and cover with a
   >> good mix of shredded compost materials, leave a week or so then roll the
   >> bin
   >> around, to mix everything up ( don't fill the bin, so it becomes
   >> unmoveable)
   >> once you get a system like this working, you can compost most garden waste
   >> in 3 or 4 weeks - always leave some compost in the bin to start the next
   >> batch. Cycle the bins so fresh material goes in one bin while another is
   >> sitting around composting.
   >>
   >> Matt
   >>
   >> ----- Original Message -----
   >> From: frank_bowman@...
   >> To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   >> Sent: 6/18/09 1:14 PM
   >> Subject: Soil Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
   >>
   >> Hello,
   >>
   >> This is a lazy question, and I am using this knowledgeable group to find
   >> it
   >> out if anyone knows. It may be perfectly obvious and simple.but I was
   >> reminded by this last email about soil.
   >>
   >> Two weeks ago, I saw and discovered in one of my compost bins which is a
   >> 2
   >> ft wide by 4 ft high plastic 45 gal drum, hasnt composted much below about
   >> 1.5 to 2 ft. The stuff on top is great well broken down into rich
   >> compost,
   >> but below that level, its taking its time, going very slowwwwwwwwww, and
   >> will take a lot longer.
   >>
   >> The way I do this compost is just as if the waste was put in the ground,
   >> the
   >> way compost does what it does naturally. the bottom of the drum has
   >> holes
   >> in it to let any worms in, and the drum is buried about 6-8", so it is
   >> connected into the ground. Every time I put kitchen waste in, I put a
   >> covering of soil on top, and so it goes till it reaches the top, then a
   >> few
   >> months later, quite soon, its all turned to compost, except as the penny
   >> dropped (Ive been doing it for quite a few years, I'm a bit slow) not very
   >> fast if at all below 1.5 - 2 ft.
   >>
   >> Someone suggested what I think is correct, that there is too little oxygen
   >> at that depth, and as the soil is living, the bugs and microbes, and worms
   >> just dont go there.
   >>
   >> That made me think. Mm, I wonder if that is the case with all soil. That
   >> the covering of the living material, the soil of life, is only 1.5 to 2 ft
   >> deep or a bit more, all over the earth.
   >>
   >> If it is, going from the email below, the concern about living soil loss,
   >> may not be as bad as we may believe it to be, as the depth that is needed
   >> can be quicker renewed given that supplies of water, are needed to bring
   >> life into it. If supplies and using swales etc, are available in areas
   >> where there has been a lot of soil loss.
   >>
   >> Just a question and a thought. Frank
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> ----- Original Message -----
   >> From: matthew@...
   >> To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
   >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 5:14 PM
   >> Subject: Re: [pfaf] About wineberry-rubus
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> ------------------------------------
   >>
   >> Yahoo! Groups Links
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >
   >
   > ------------------------------------
   >
   > Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
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   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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   > ------------------------------------
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   > Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
   >
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   >

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   ------------------------------------

   Yahoo! Groups Links

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   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I add peels that have been processed to my soils. So far everything is
greener and seems happier.

--
Charlotte Fairchild
Fear thou not (Isaiah 41:10)
Ask your library to order Murder On the Silver Comet Trail!
http://murdertrail.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi everyone,

Just wondered if anyone had any advice about buying a property with land
which is on the levels - i.e goes down to sea level.

The actual house is about 5 metres above sea level but the land goes right
down to sea level.  It can get marshy, particularly in winter but a railway
  line goes across the back and would possibly delay any sea level rise.
The  land is around 5 acres in all with only about half an acre above the
levels.

A few questions:

Do you think land this low is a bad investment in the light of climate
change (silly question really - I think I know the answer - and currently
flooding comes almost right up to the property according to the Environment
Agency maps) - not sure if any houses on the road have been flooded  before.

What sort of plants would do well on this land? - we would like to plant a
woodland (willow is an option), orchard and of course grow vegetables.

Would you touch it with a barge pole? - bearing in mind we live in the
South East and there are few options in our area for property with land, plus
it  is reasonably priced and a new build.

Many thanks.
Marina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Richard and Marina,

I think you know the answer indeed. What is the point in investing in
land that will be flooded in 5, 20 or 50 years? Does time make a
difference? Isn't growing food a matter of having a vision of 7
generation down the line?
The international climate scientist gathering have to come up with a
consensus at the end of the gathering. Meaning all extreme climate
change models are disregarded. As a consequence we keep hearing over and
over again that change is happening faster than expected.


History teaches us that climate changes often, but never gradually.
I am sure that every drop or lump of fossil fuel we will find will be
burned.
Climate change tipping points are already tipping.



Or maybe you could specialise in growing seaweed and fish farming with a
house on stilts?? Seems there will be a rising demand in those skills!
There is plenty of land available elsewhere. Maybe consider moving
further a field? Food producers will be highly regarded in the future!

Ludwig



richardandmarina@... wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Just wondered if anyone had any advice about buying a property with land
> which is on the levels - i.e goes down to sea level.
>
> The actual house is about 5 metres above sea level but the land goes right
> down to sea level.  It can get marshy, particularly in winter but a railway
>  line goes across the back and would possibly delay any sea level rise.
> The  land is around 5 acres in all with only about half an acre above the
> levels.
>
> A few questions:
>
> Do you think land this low is a bad investment in the light of climate
> change (silly question really - I think I know the answer - and currently
> flooding comes almost right up to the property according to the Environment
> Agency maps) - not sure if any houses on the road have been flooded  before.
>
> What sort of plants would do well on this land? - we would like to plant a
> woodland (willow is an option), orchard and of course grow vegetables.
>
> Would you touch it with a barge pole? - bearing in mind we live in the
> South East and there are few options in our area for property with land, plus
> it  is reasonably priced and a new build.
>
> Many thanks.
> Marina
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

Have you been out there in a real bad rainy season? I once thought I was
getting a deal on some property that was low but went out after a torrential
rain and found that you couldnt exit the area after rains and everyone had
built up the dirt on their property so that their properties wouldnt get any
of the flooding. I dont know where you are located, but Fl with rainy
seasons and hurricanes isnt a good mix for low lands unless you consider
raising the property with dirt.
   Just something to think about.

Theresa

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 6:34 PM, Ludd <the_pooh_way@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Richard and Marina,
>
> I think you know the answer indeed. What is the point in investing in
> land that will be flooded in 5, 20 or 50 years? Does time make a
> difference? Isn't growing food a matter of having a vision of 7
> generation down the line?
> The international climate scientist gathering have to come up with a
> consensus at the end of the gathering. Meaning all extreme climate
> change models are disregarded. As a consequence we keep hearing over and
> over again that change is happening faster than expected.
>
> History teaches us that climate changes often, but never gradually.
> I am sure that every drop or lump of fossil fuel we will find will be
> burned.
> Climate change tipping points are already tipping.
>
> Or maybe you could specialise in growing seaweed and fish farming with a
> house on stilts?? Seems there will be a rising demand in those skills!
> There is plenty of land available elsewhere. Maybe consider moving
> further a field? Food producers will be highly regarded in the future!
>
> Ludwig
>
> richardandmarina@... <richardandmarina%40aol.com> wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Just wondered if anyone had any advice about buying a property with land
> > which is on the levels - i.e goes down to sea level.
> >
> > The actual house is about 5 metres above sea level but the land goes
> right
> > down to sea level. It can get marshy, particularly in winter but a
> railway
> > line goes across the back and would possibly delay any sea level rise.
> > The land is around 5 acres in all with only about half an acre above the
> > levels.
> >
> > A few questions:
> >
> > Do you think land this low is a bad investment in the light of climate
> > change (silly question really - I think I know the answer - and currently
>
> > flooding comes almost right up to the property according to the
> Environment
> > Agency maps) - not sure if any houses on the road have been flooded
> before.
> >
> > What sort of plants would do well on this land? - we would like to plant
> a
> > woodland (willow is an option), orchard and of course grow vegetables.
> >
> > Would you touch it with a barge pole? - bearing in mind we live in the
> > South East and there are few options in our area for property with land,
> plus
> > it is reasonably priced and a new build.
> >
> > Many thanks.
> > Marina
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Today I was out, and about laying in grass By the river,
  anyways before I left I have had Aloe vera sitting in a  BAby jar.
this didn't seem like I could make tea out of it or any thing because it has
been soaking (with the skins), and had a smell of bell peppers.
anyways Im not sure if it willl keep working, but I did get bit In my under My
shorts where I didn't apply it.

I also Looked up some thing, and it said it's used for repellent.
Here is one link more are online
http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=20053128573

I have also taken vitamin B or garlic pills
  I wasn't having any probelms, by a swamp,
but Alcohol, reduces Vitamin B
I was   watching the insect climb,
  on my leg hair, but It wasn't going in on my skin to bite me.

Hello there everyone ,I have managed to germinate three D. virginiana tree from
seed and as this is a new species to me I was wondering if anybody out there had
any cultural information on it, specifically how long I will need to wait to
find out which are male and female and any pointers as to how I may be able to
tell from an early age? Many thanks Gaia in Swansea West Wales

i,

Sounds like an interesting bit of land.

A lot depends on how long you want the land. If your looking short term
say <20 years you'll probably be OK. In the last 100 years
then the rise has been less than 30cm in the UK and is likely to rise at the
same rate in the short-term
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/research/library/data/58624.aspx

Marshy land can be a really interesting and important habitat. As a wild guess
you might be looking at Romney Marsh which is home to Water Voles, Medicinal
Leech, Great Crested Newt, Greater Water Parsnip and the Marsh Frog.
     http://www.rmcp.co.uk/Wildlife.html
Other coastal mashes are likely to have similar flora and fauna and your likely
to have good bird life.

It may also be a good place for extrema-permaculture you could have a lot of fun
designing for rising water and combating coastal erosion. You may even find that
marshy habitats are natures way of coping with erosion and it will does better
than other low lying areas.

So it might be a bad place of real-estate speculation but a great place for
observing nature.

     Rich

--- In pfaf@yahoogroups.com, richardandmarina@... wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Just wondered if anyone had any advice about buying a property with land
> which is on the levels - i.e goes down to sea level.
>
> The actual house is about 5 metres above sea level but the land goes right
> down to sea level.  It can get marshy, particularly in winter but a railway
>  line goes across the back and would possibly delay any sea level rise.
> The  land is around 5 acres in all with only about half an acre above the
> levels.
>
> A few questions:
>
> Do you think land this low is a bad investment in the light of climate
> change (silly question really - I think I know the answer - and currently
> flooding comes almost right up to the property according to the Environment
> Agency maps) - not sure if any houses on the road have been flooded  before.
>
> What sort of plants would do well on this land? - we would like to plant a
> woodland (willow is an option), orchard and of course grow vegetables.
>
> Would you touch it with a barge pole? - bearing in mind we live in the
> South East and there are few options in our area for property with land, plus
> it  is reasonably priced and a new build.
>
> Many thanks.
> Marina
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

At 03:34 PM 6/23/2009, Ludd wrote:

>I think you know the answer indeed. What is the point in investing in
>land that will be flooded in 5, 20 or 50 years? Does time make a
>difference? Isn't growing food a matter of having a vision of 7
>generation down the line?

Circumspection is required.

But are water levels destined to rise worldwide?

Check out the two climate prediction models from the UN's
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.


john g

Hello all,

Would anyone have any idea where or how I could get hold of Wolffia
(watermeal/least duckweed) in the UK?

I don't know specifics about your environment . . . what I can tell
you is that there are many species of juneberry and that one is
probably native to an environment similar to yours.  This website has
maps of the juneberrie's native environment:
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=AMELA  If you find a USDA
hardiness zone map or a sunset zone map or such and compare weather to
your environment then you should be able to find a specie that will
fit yours.  Some two year old juneberrie plants that I put in took 4-5
years to get any real berries, like many fruit trees so don't give up.

Chris
zone 5a, Illinois, USA



On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:43 PM,
frank_bowman@...<frank_bowman@...> wrote:
>
> Do juneberries fruit in the uk? I know of 5 trees that havent fruited more
than a finger full each, if that in 3 years. They are at least 7yrs old and 3
stand 15ft high,other two are 12ft.
>
> Chex wrote:
>>       Juneberries are the Amelanchier species.  The USDA website below is
a
>> great source for info.  Good luck sprouting seeds they are not very
>> viable.  I have tried for years, stratify, scarify, stratify - scarify
>> - trick into thinking that two winters have passed, etc.  Best bet is
>> live plants.
>> Chris
>> Zone 5a, Illinois, USA
>> ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* *
>> Juneberries are different species !
>> Do you know which species this is ??
>> Could you provide some seeds ??
>> Geir Flatabø
>> 2009/6/15 Chex < chex.rice@gmail. com >
>>> I have already posted pics of Juneberries in bloom and you could see
>>> that they are
>>> a beautiful plant. Now I have posted pics of the fruit - the thing
>>> that sets the juneberry apart from other beautiful plants.
>>> Juneberries are sweet with a hint of almond. MMMMMMM . . . . .
>>> MMMMMMMM!
>>>
>>> You can see a slideshow of all the Juneberry pics here:
>>>
>>> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/pfaf/ photos/album/ 214315570/ pic/list?
mode=slide& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc
>>>
>>> You may have to sign in to the group to see them.
>>>
>>> This Department of Agriculture site has maps that show the native
>>> distribution of 20 types of juneberry:
>>> http://plants. usda.gov/ java/profile? symbol=AMELA
>>>
>>> I think if you have the space and the environment you should have this
>>> plant . . .
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>    
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks for that Chris, thats really good.  Im looking forward to researching
it.  Frank



--- On Fri, 26/6/09, Chex <chex.rice@...> wrote:

From: Chex <chex.rice@...>
Subject: Re: [pfaf] Re: Fruiting Juneberry Pics
To: "frank_bowman@..." <frank_bowman@...>, pfaf@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 26 June, 2009, 7:52 PM

















       I don't know specifics about your environment . . . what I can tell

you is that there are many species of juneberry and that one is

probably native to an environment similar to yours.  This website has

maps of the juneberrie's native environment:

http://plants. usda.gov/ java/profile? symbol=AMELA  If you find a USDA

hardiness zone map or a sunset zone map or such and compare weather to

your environment then you should be able to find a specie that will

fit yours.  Some two year old juneberrie plants that I put in took 4-5

years to get any real berries, like many fruit trees so don't give up.



Chris

zone 5a, Illinois, USA



On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:43 PM,

frank_bowman@ yahoo.co. uk<frank_bowman@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:

>

> Do juneberries fruit in the uk? I know of 5 trees that havent fruited more
than a finger full each, if that in 3 years. They are at least 7yrs old and 3
stand 15ft high,other two are 12ft.

>

> Chex wrote:

>>       Juneberries are the Amelanchier species.  The USDA website below is a

>> great source for info.  Good luck sprouting seeds they are not very

>> viable.  I have tried for years, stratify, scarify, stratify - scarify

>> - trick into thinking that two winters have passed, etc.  Best bet is

>> live plants.

>> Chris

>> Zone 5a, Illinois, USA

>> ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* *

>> Juneberries are different species !

>> Do you know which species this is ??

>> Could you provide some seeds ??

>> Geir Flatabø

>> 2009/6/15 Chex < chex.rice@gmail. com >

>>> I have already posted pics of Juneberries in bloom and you could see

>>> that they are

>>> a beautiful plant. Now I have posted pics of the fruit - the thing

>>> that sets the juneberry apart from other beautiful plants.

>>> Juneberries are sweet with a hint of almond. MMMMMMM . . . . .

>>> MMMMMMMM!

>>>

>>> You can see a slideshow of all the Juneberry pics here:

>>>

>>> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/pfaf/ photos/album/ 214315570/ pic/list?
mode=slide& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc

>>>

>>> You may have to sign in to the group to see them.

>>>

>>> This Department of Agriculture site has maps that show the native

>>> distribution of 20 types of juneberry:

>>> http://plants. usda.gov/ java/profile? symbol=AMELA

>>>

>>> I think if you have the space and the environment you should have this

>>> plant . . .

>>>

>>> Chris

>>>

>>>

>>> ------------ --------- --------- ------

>>>

>>> Yahoo! Groups Links

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>    

>

>

>

>

>

>





























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Hi - I've never come across Wolffia being traded.

I think your best bet for getting some in the UK is to consult your local
botanists thru your county naturalists trust.

It is native to some southern English counties, and being the smallest plant in
the world it would be easy for a kind soul to pop a few into a plastic bag and
post it to you.

The duckweeds generally have a very high protein content - over 50%, and
W.arrhiza doesnt need to use any nutrients on an unnecessary root system.

Good Luck!

Phil.




http://cooltemperate.co.uk/index.shtml

Cool Temperate Postal Address:


Cool Temperate,
45 Stamford Street,
Awsworth,
Notts
NG16 2QL



Tel and Fax: 0115 916 2673

Skype: Philco47




To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
From: n_udoh@...
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 15:21:22 +0000
Subject: [pfaf] Wolffia arrhiza


























       Hello all,



Would anyone have any idea where or how I could get hold of Wolffia
(watermeal/least duckweed) in the UK?






















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