I got seed from Richters.   www.richters.com.
I never planted it.

--- Ken Fern <ken.fern@...> wrote:
> Dear Luke
>
> I'm not sure how hardy Tribulus terrestris is, but
> it can probably be grown
> in Britain as an annual crop. Here is an extract
> from the PFAF database.
>
> We have very little information on this species and
> are not sure how
> successful it will be in Britain. There are
> conflicting reports on its
> hardiness - according to one report it is native to
> N. France which should
> make it hardy in Britain[50] whilst another report
> says that it is only
> hardy in zone 10 which means that it is not frost
> tolerant[200]. We would
> suggest treating it as a frost tender annual and
> then experimenting with its
> hardiness. It is likely to require a well-drained
> dry to moist soil and is
> also likely to be tolerant of maritime exposure.
> The plant is very fast growing from seed[50].
> A good bee plant[156].
>
> The only place I know that can supply seeds is B&T
> World Seeds. Visit their
> web site at  www.b-and-t-world-seeds.com for details
> of availability.
>
> If you do grow the plant, please could you let us
> know how it fares with you
> so that we can learn more about its potential for
> this country.
>
> Many thanks
>
> Ken Fern
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tao1uk" <luke_devlin@...>
> To: <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:42 PM
> Subject: [pfaf] introduction
>
>
> > Hi there, joined not long ago, thought I'd
> introduce myself. I'm
> > Luke, I live in Glasgow, I'm 22, Taoist, martial
> artist...
> >
> >
> >
> >  Does anyone know how to get or grow Tribulus
> terrestris
> > (Zygophyllaceae) seeds? As a vegan martial artist
> I use this herbal
> > supplement and it works wonders. Just wondered if
> it can be grown in
> > the UK.
> >
> > Sorry if you're on one of the other lists I'm on
> and get this message
> > a few times!
> >
> >
> > Peace be with you
> >
> > Luke
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > pfaf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

austin jones (thatagoatsees@...) wrote:
>
> Can the fruits of chenopodium capitatum be consumed raw in large quantity? -
> thatagoatsees@...

	 Rich

--
Plants for a Future: 7000 useful plants
Web:       http://www.pfaf.org/  or  http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/
Snail:     1 Lerryn View, Lerryn, Lostwithiel Cornwall, PL22 0QJ
Tel:      01208 872 963 / 07813 067250
Email:     webmaster@...
PFAF electronic mailing list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf

bigjohn@... wrote:
>
> I am doing research to find what the "minimal" amount of land would be needed
> to sustain just one (1) person every year.
>
> I have been told by one person that she thought it would take 1/4 acre of
> intensive gardening. This seems to be inadiquate to me.
>
> Although I am not a vegetarian, I am researching this subject for a web page
> I have.
>
> I would also like to know the mininmal amount of land need for a non
> vegetarian. The other person I talked to was a vegetarian and did not
> elaborate for a non-vegetarian.

	 Well this is one of those questions that goes round and
round. There was an interesting article in New Scientist a couple
of weeks back , advocating a middle way between organics
and conventional agriculture. Well worth reading if you like
a challenge, but it could get the blood boiling.
One of the bits in the article compared the water use of different
crops and animals. Rice was high, but cows were off the scale.

I've passed you question on to the
PFAF electronic mailing list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf
which might get a good discussion going.

	 All the best

		 Rich
--
Plants for a Future: 7000 useful plants
Web:       http://www.pfaf.org/  or  http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/
Snail:     1 Lerryn View, Lerryn, Lostwithiel Cornwall, PL22 0QJ
Tel:      01208 872 963 / 07813 067250
Email:     webmaster@...
PFAF electronic mailing list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf

Dear Stephen,
>         I am interested in finding a genus and species of a plant the Tibetans
> refer to as Arura,or the Arura plum.ANy info on this would be very
> appreciated!

I had a search through our database and could not find any mention
of the plant, this might be because we concentrate on plants
which grow in this country.

I also search quite a few other databases and could not find a mention.

I've passed you message onto the pfaf electronic mailing list
	 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf
someone there might know something.

	 Rich
--
Plants for a Future: 7000 useful plants
Web:       http://www.pfaf.org/  or  http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/
Snail:     1 Lerryn View, Lerryn, Lostwithiel Cornwall, PL22 0QJ
Tel:      01208 872 963 / 07813 067250
Email:     webmaster@...
PFAF electronic mailing list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf

Here's an article I wrote a little while back on this subject...

Land required for Vegan self sufficiency- some questions and food for
thought....


How much land does a vegan require to be self sufficient in food?

An often quoted figure, attributed to the Vegan Society, is that one
person on a plant based diet could be self sufficient on one fifth of
an acre of land.

However I'm not so sure how helpful such a figure is- it's one of
those 'how long is a piece of string' type questions-

There are many variables to take into account, here's a few I can
think of (which could also act as the start of a useful checklist
when considering any other self-sufficient food growing/land use
venture...);

What is the land quality? What type of soil do you have? What
condition is it in?
What's it's aspect? Sun paths at different times of year?
Are you on a slope? How steep?
What are your first and last frost dates?
Do you have an independant water supply? What irrigation techniques
do you plan to use?
Is it 'virgin' land that requires clearing and initial cultivating?
Any pollutants or contamination that need to be dealt with?
What weather patterns do you encounter?
Prevailing winds? How exposed are you?
In what part of the country/world are you intending to grow?
Do you intend to add season extending structures such as polytunnels &
greenhouses?
What do you want to grow? Have you audited/analysed the nutritional
(eg, protien, carbohydrate, fibre, mineral, vitamins (including
vitamin B12))contents of your chosen crops? Which are heavy feeders,
which are light feeders?
Will you be planting annuals or perennials (including tree crops)?
What do you want to eat? What do you like?
Do you have a big appetite?
Are you a raw food vegan?
If not, have you factored in the land/energy required to produce the
fuel to cook your food?
What's your lifestyle? How much time/energy do you have? Other
commitments?
How fit are you?
Do you enjoy gardening?
How intensively do you intend to manage the land?
Are you using machinery/power tools?
If so have you factored in the land/energy required to
manufacture/fuel such equipment?
How experienced/knowledgable are you as regards food growing?
Are you using permaculture techniques and strategies such as
increasing edge, stacking, succession, using multifunctional
plantings, using zonal planning, etc, etc?
Are you returning your own wastes (ie, humanure) to the soil?
Are you growing organically?
If so, are you growing vegan organically? Have you factored in space
needed for compost crops and green manures?
Are you growing 'conventional' organically? Have you factored in the
land required to graze cattle or grow fodder in order to import their
manure outputs? What about transporting it to your land (dung
miles???)?
If neither, have you factored in the 'embodied energy' and land
needed to produce and transport the various chemicals & pesticides
you intend to add?

---------------------------------------------------------
One fifth of an acre of prime fertile rich agricultural soil in a
sheltered river valley with a long growing season, worked by a young,
strong, fit, experienced person 7 days a week following a well
integrated and thought out cropping plan, is going to be a very
different proposition to one fifth of an acre of exposed, thin and
acidic Welsh hillside being managed by say, a single parent suffering
from health problems and trying fit growing activities in with things
like holding down a job, commuting, raising a family, etc, etc!
Two people managing two fifths of an acre, or five people managing
one acre are completely different scenarios again, whatever the
land's condition!
Then there are all those other human needs that need to be met-
clothing, shelter, warmth, transport (not to mention emotional needs
including the company of others!!)

Sometimes perhaps we need to be a little careful about quoting figures
without placing them in any sort of context or thining about what they
imply... Just some food for thought, I would welcome any responses or
comments...

Graham Burnett
www.landandliberty.co.uk

PS. I've produced a small checklist of issues to think about
when 'reading
your
land' at http://pages.unisonfree.net/gburnett/SEEOG/page13.html

There's some other possibly useful checklists at
http://pages.unisonfree.net/gburnett/SEEOG/page4.html


--- In pfaf@y..., Richard Morris <webmaster@p...> wrote:
> bigjohn@g... wrote:
> >
> > I am doing research to find what the "minimal" amount of land
would be needed
> > to sustain just one (1) person every year.
> >

BK,
> Whoa, wrong page, that was for a different website.... :-)
> One tiny difference makes the difference....
> http://www.saber.net/~lildragon/index.htm (no l).... If your browser is
> adding the l to htm, tell me and I'll just change the name.... :-)
> The image loading order is a bit off, I'd like it to load in a better order,
> which can be done, I just didn't get to it when I made the page....

Got the right site this time, cool.

in general I like it.

Best bits
	 1) Overall feel, it nicely breaks up the info.
	 2) The heading for the different boxes.
		 Esp Gardening and What's New
	 3) Title bar, but not quite sure on the images.
	 4) Fonts. Title fonts are nice.

Not so sure on
	 Images in title bar. I've been working on a header
	 which features the monkey puzzle tree, which is a bit of a
	 logo for us.

	 "Promoting Woodland Gardening" we feel this does not
	 really capture what pfafs about. Still trying to
	 come up with a good phrase
	 "Edible, Medicinal and Useful Plants for a healthier world"
	 is coming top of the list at the moment.

	 Not so keen on the conifers in the background, not quite
	 what PFAF's about. Possibly could do something with the
	 monkey puzzle picture.

	 The leaf is OK, but...

	 Blue, not my favourite shade. I'd like something lighter
	 I've inkieing towards greenish shades.


Stuff I'd like to see.
	 Main boxes:
		 About Plants (poss. use the hemero.jpg as background)
		 About Gardening
		 Plant Database (a big component of site)
		 About Us
	 (what's New often isn't)

	 I'd like to have Friends of PFAF quite prominent

	 Maybe two boxes below:

		 Get Involved!
			 Friends of PFAF
			 Email Mailing List
			 Volunteering
			 Donations and Investment

		 News, Events and Courses

	 Possibly one of those site content boxes on the
	 left hand side.

So how to take things from here? I'd quite to keep design discussion
open on the pfaf_developers mailing list. How much time do you
have for getting a finished design? I'm really busy at the moment
and my email answering can be a bit sporadic (45 emails answered
today but hardly any for the rest of the week).

	 All the best

		 Rich


--
Plants for a Future: 7000 useful plants
Web:       http://www.pfaf.org/  or  http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/
Snail:     1 Lerryn View, Lerryn, Lostwithiel Cornwall, PL22 0QJ
Tel:      01208 872 963 / 07813 067250
Email:     webmaster@...
PFAF electronic mailing list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf

Hi,

I overheard a conversation on a train the other day. I think the
person speaking was a botonist, and she also does training courses in
using herbs. Anyway, she was talking about some kind of world-wide
effort to create an advisory service for people looking for crops to
grow in their habitat (after the person she was speaking to got off
the train, I was going to ask her for more info, but she got off at
the next stop!). It sounded like a new initiative, possibly by some
amalgamation of botonist groups?

Is PFAF aware of such a thing?

Cheers,
Rob

Dear Austin

Yes, the fruits of Chenopodium capitatum can be eaten in quantity raw, if
you like them enough. Personally, I find them a bit boring after the first
few! They make a nice addition to a mixed salad though.

Love

Ken Fern.
----- Original Message -----
> austin jones (thatagoatsees@...) wrote:
> >
> > Can the fruits of chenopodium capitatum be consumed raw in large
quantity? -
> > thatagoatsees@...
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul

To: pfaf@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 3:43 PM

Subject: [pfaf] Kiwi

I have a Chinesis variety of Kiwi that I planted 18 months ago. It is situated against an east and south wall in the garden. Last year it grew well to about 7ft in length. Although it may be sitated in a place that collects frost, I mulched it well in the winter and it started off well this spring. However, it now has gone very limp and growth buds are stunted. The plant has plenty of water and the stem is not damaged. I can see no evidence of any significant pest  damage. Has anyone got any idea what might be wrong>

Thanks in anticipation.

Paul Charnock

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
pfaf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Dear Graham

Long time no see. I hope everything is well with you.

I read your comments on minimum land use with some interest. I think you
will find that the one fifth of an acre for a vegan figure came originally
from a scientist called Kenneth Mellanby. He was commissioned by the
government of the day (back in the 70's if my memory serves me well) to see
if it was possible to grow all the food needs of Britain in Britain instead
of importing so much food. His findings were eventually published in a book
called, I believe 'Can Britain Feed Itself'.

Amongst his many findings were that a meat eater needed up to 10 acres to
provide their annual food needs (depending on the types of meat they ate) a
vegetarian up to 2 and a half acres (depending on the amount of dairy
produce they consumed) and a vegan one fifth of an acre. These findings were
average figures based on the population as a whole. They were also based on
average conventional (not organic) agricultural yields.

Whilst these figures, used as a comparison, work well to show how much
easier it would be to feed a vegan world, as you point out they can be
confusing for individuals with their own small plots of land.

I think it would be very difficult for one individual, even if they were
very healthy, to grow all their food needs on one fifth of an acre, even if
it was prime agricultural land. There would be bound to be times of glut and
times of shortage. However, if a group of, say, five people shared an acre
of land then it would be easier to smooth out the gluts and there would also
be more space for growing the larger crops such as nut trees.

As regards comparing yields from conventional agriculture with those
obtained from a perennial gardening system, particularly using woodland
gardening, there are no figures yet published (as far as I know) to show how
productive a perennial system can be so no comparison is possible. It is up
to all of us to start getting our acts together and recording what we are
doing and how much food we are obtaining from our land - when we do this
then we might start influencing mainstream agriculture.

Look after yourself

Love and Peace

Ken Fern
----- Original Message -----
From: "quercusrobur2002" <grahamburnett@...>
To: <pfaf@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 6:09 PM
Subject: [pfaf] Re: Mininum land for vegitarian garden.


> Here's an article I wrote a little while back on this subject...
>
> Land required for Vegan self sufficiency- some questions and food for
> thought....
>
>
> How much land does a vegan require to be self sufficient in food?
>
> An often quoted figure, attributed to the Vegan Society, is that one
> person on a plant based diet could be self sufficient on one fifth of
> an acre of land.
>
> However I'm not so sure how helpful such a figure is- it's one of
> those 'how long is a piece of string' type questions-
>
> There are many variables to take into account, here's a few I can
> think of (which could also act as the start of a useful checklist
> when considering any other self-sufficient food growing/land use
> venture...);
>
> What is the land quality? What type of soil do you have? What
> condition is it in?
> What's it's aspect? Sun paths at different times of year?
> Are you on a slope? How steep?
> What are your first and last frost dates?
> Do you have an independant water supply? What irrigation techniques
> do you plan to use?
> Is it 'virgin' land that requires clearing and initial cultivating?
> Any pollutants or contamination that need to be dealt with?
> What weather patterns do you encounter?
> Prevailing winds? How exposed are you?
> In what part of the country/world are you intending to grow?
> Do you intend to add season extending structures such as polytunnels &
> greenhouses?
> What do you want to grow? Have you audited/analysed the nutritional
> (eg, protien, carbohydrate, fibre, mineral, vitamins (including
> vitamin B12))contents of your chosen crops? Which are heavy feeders,
> which are light feeders?
> Will you be planting annuals or perennials (including tree crops)?
> What do you want to eat? What do you like?
> Do you have a big appetite?
> Are you a raw food vegan?
> If not, have you factored in the land/energy required to produce the
> fuel to cook your food?
> What's your lifestyle? How much time/energy do you have? Other
> commitments?
> How fit are you?
> Do you enjoy gardening?
> How intensively do you intend to manage the land?
> Are you using machinery/power tools?
> If so have you factored in the land/energy required to
> manufacture/fuel such equipment?
> How experienced/knowledgable are you as regards food growing?
> Are you using permaculture techniques and strategies such as
> increasing edge, stacking, succession, using multifunctional
> plantings, using zonal planning, etc, etc?
> Are you returning your own wastes (ie, humanure) to the soil?
> Are you growing organically?
> If so, are you growing vegan organically? Have you factored in space
> needed for compost crops and green manures?
> Are you growing 'conventional' organically? Have you factored in the
> land required to graze cattle or grow fodder in order to import their
> manure outputs? What about transporting it to your land (dung
> miles???)?
> If neither, have you factored in the 'embodied energy' and land
> needed to produce and transport the various chemicals & pesticides
> you intend to add?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> One fifth of an acre of prime fertile rich agricultural soil in a
> sheltered river valley with a long growing season, worked by a young,
> strong, fit, experienced person 7 days a week following a well
> integrated and thought out cropping plan, is going to be a very
> different proposition to one fifth of an acre of exposed, thin and
> acidic Welsh hillside being managed by say, a single parent suffering
> from health problems and trying fit growing activities in with things
> like holding down a job, commuting, raising a family, etc, etc!
> Two people managing two fifths of an acre, or five people managing
> one acre are completely different scenarios again, whatever the
> land's condition!
> Then there are all those other human needs that need to be met-
> clothing, shelter, warmth, transport (not to mention emotional needs
> including the company of others!!)
>
> Sometimes perhaps we need to be a little careful about quoting figures
> without placing them in any sort of context or thining about what they
> imply... Just some food for thought, I would welcome any responses or
> comments...
>
> Graham Burnett
> www.landandliberty.co.uk
>
> PS. I've produced a small checklist of issues to think about
> when 'reading
> your
> land' at http://pages.unisonfree.net/gburnett/SEEOG/page13.html
>
> There's some other possibly useful checklists at
> http://pages.unisonfree.net/gburnett/SEEOG/page4.html
>
>
> --- In pfaf@y..., Richard Morris <webmaster@p...> wrote:
> > bigjohn@g... wrote:
> > >
> > > I am doing research to find what the "minimal" amount of land
> would be needed
> > > to sustain just one (1) person every year.
> > >
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> pfaf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

I have not seen the study you refer to but I should think it would be
very difficult to be self-sufficient on such a small piece of land with
only vegetable input and output. Apart from dealing with the problem of
months of plenty against months of little as you mentioned, there is
also the problem of nutrient loss. Without using animal waste, the
amount of vegetable matter required for composting would be large (even
with a system for using human waste) and the space to produce this
material would not be there, as it would be necessary to grow food crops
on most of the available land quite intensively I would have thought.

I also don't think that using animals necessarily uses large amounts of
space. Obviously keeping cows or pigs uses a lot of land, but what about
chickens, rabbits or pigeons? All tasty and nutritious and can create
perfect compost from vegetable matter in about 12 hours. It would be
quite possible to keep either or all of these creatures in free range
conditions without great demands on space. Eating them during the lean
winter times could make self sufficiency far easier.



From: Ken Fern [mailto:ken.fern@...]
Sent: 06 June 2002 11:54
To: grahamburnett@...
Cc: pfaf@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [pfaf] Re: Mininum land for vegetarian garden.

Dear Graham

Long time no see. I hope everything is well with you.

I read your comments on minimum land use with some interest. I think you
will find that the one fifth of an acre for a vegan figure came
originally
from a scientist called Kenneth Mellanby. He was commissioned by the
government of the day (back in the 70's if my memory serves me well) to
see
if it was possible to grow all the food needs of Britain in Britain
instead
of importing so much food. His findings were eventually published in a
book
called, I believe 'Can Britain Feed Itself'.

Amongst his many findings were that a meat eater needed up to 10 acres
to
provide their annual food needs (depending on the types of meat they
ate) a
vegetarian up to 2 and a half acres (depending on the amount of dairy
produce they consumed) and a vegan one fifth of an acre. These findings
were
average figures based on the population as a whole. They were also based
on
average conventional (not organic) agricultural yields.

Whilst these figures, used as a comparison, work well to show how much
easier it would be to feed a vegan world, as you point out they can be
confusing for individuals with their own small plots of land.

I think it would be very difficult for one individual, even if they were
very healthy, to grow all their food needs on one fifth of an acre, even
if
it was prime agricultural land. There would be bound to be times of glut
and
times of shortage. However, if a group of, say, five people shared an
acre
of land then it would be easier to smooth out the gluts and there would
also
be more space for growing the larger crops such as nut trees.

As regards comparing yields from conventional agriculture with those
obtained from a perennial gardening system, particularly using woodland
gardening, there are no figures yet published (as far as I know) to show
how
productive a perennial system can be so no comparison is possible. It is
up
to all of us to start getting our acts together and recording what we
are
doing and how much food we are obtaining from our land - when we do this
then we might start influencing mainstream agriculture.

Look after yourself

Love and Peace

Ken Fern

Thanks for your reply ken, this makes alot of sense, and puts this
oft- quoted figure into a more meaningful context! I'm also pleased
for the more substantial reference than an old vegan society leaflet!

Cheers Graham

--- In pfaf@y..., "Ken Fern" <ken.fern@l...> wrote:
> Dear Graham
>
> Long time no see. I hope everything is well with you.
>
> I read your comments on minimum land use with some interest. I
think you
> will find that the one fifth of an acre for a vegan figure came
originally
> from a scientist called Kenneth Mellanby. He was commissioned by
the

Can anybody help Andre with his request??

replies direct to andre rather than me, thanks!
andre_cilliers1@...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Burnett" <grahamburnett@...>
To: "andre_cilliers1" <andre_cilliers1@...>
Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: Pemaculture garden design


> Hi andre- there are lots of designs about, but usually they are designed
to
> fit the specific needs and circumstances of the people who've created them
> (here's one of mine for example (my back garden),
> http://pages.unisonfree.net/gburnett/Garden/page2.html but it probably
> wouldn't be suitable for you...)
>
> I'll forward this query to the UK & international Permaculture elists
where
> hopefully there will be many more sample designs that will be helpful...
>
> Cheers for now, Graham
> www.landandliberty.co.uk
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: andre_cilliers1
> To: gburnett@...
> Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 7:06 AM
> Subject: Pemaculture garden design
>
>
> Hi
> I have been trying to source some examples of layouts for a permaculture
> vegetable garden but have had no luck. Any help in this regard will be
> appreciated.
> Thanks
> Andre (South Africa)
>

Dear Friends,
         We would like to invite you to the South West
Permaculture Convergence to be hosted by Plants For A Future
at Blagdon Cross Plant Research and Demonstration Gardens
Ashwater, Beaworthy, North Devon (Near Launceston)
on Sat and Sun 29th/30th June 2002.

An invitation to space, some great food, lovely people and a variety
of workshops.

The convergence will begin on the morning of Saturday the 29th June
and finish the evening of Sunday 30th June and the build up to the
event will be taking place from the 20th June with more activities
planned for the week after.

There will be space for anyone to hold there own workshops, we
already haves some in the pipeline:-

Tours, Plans and Progress. With this huge project ahead of us who
knows how far on it will be in such early days? Looking at the
many different aspects of the developing site including existing
woodland management, new planting, water treatment systems,
renewable energy supply, treebogs, campsite and restroom facilities.
Visit the new visitors centre and access the bounty of information.

Practical Workshops. - With and endless variety of practical work
to be carried out, choose something you would like to get your teeth
into.

'Help us if you can!' - Feeling inspired? Join the PFAF team in
helping to build support networks.

'A Taste for Freedom'. - Surrounded by the panoramic view of the
sky you could enjoy some amazing sunsets or sit and contemplate a
night sky 'full' of stars (weather permitting!)

Optional Field Trips. With so much on site we would be surprised
if there was a need for field trips or that you'd want to leave -
but just in case!

As resourceful as ever we are hoping that someone out there is able
offer to lend some temporary structures for the event i.e.
Yurts/Geodesic Domes/Marquees or similar and that there may be
some willing volunteers interested in lending a hand as site crew.
If you think you can help in any way please do contact us soon.
This event will run on a Magic Hat donations basis that we hope
will go a long way to recovering some of our expenses.

Parking and Transport
There will be parking spaces on site although we do ask that people
try to take public transport where possible. That said this could be
quite a mission - buses are available from Exeter and Plymouth to
Launceston and Holsworthy. Launceston is 10 miles and Holsworthy
5 miles from the site. Please ring as early as possible to arrange
pick up. Bicycles very welcome.
   The site is just off the A388 from Launceston to Holsworthy,
10 miles north of Launceston and 1 mile south of the village of Clawton.
Just 800yards south of Clawton is a really sharp bend on a hill.
On this bend there is a turning sign posted for Ashwater,
Hallwill Junction, Blagdon Manor Farm, take this turn and we are
situated about 800 yards along this road on the left hand side
opposite Blagdon Lodge and a right turn - easy - see you here.

Accommodation
Camping is available or there is lovely accommodation available
locally at reasonable rates. If local accommodation is required
we suggest you contact us soon in order that we can ensure you
a place to stay.

Catering
We are a Vegan Project and ask all visitors to eat in a vegan
manner whilst on site (what you do off site is your own business).
There will be the option of vegan catering on site and self catering.

Alcohol
In the interest of conservation we would prefer it if people
did not bring bottles and cans on site unless they are willing to
take their empties away afterwards.

Plants For A Future
Blagdon Cross, Ashwater, Beaworthy, Devon. EX21 5DF.
0845 458 4719 / 01208 872 963
webmaster@...    www.pfaf.org

1.) I am looking for gooseberry cultivars or wild gooseberry species
that have a different but interesting taste/flavor compared to
cultivars like Achilles, Invicta or Worchesterberry

2.) I am looking for tetraploid gooseberries.

Thanks
Martin

Dear friends,
              I need your help. Please send me the info
and ref. regarding the tissue culture or
micropropagation in sea buckthorne.

--- Richard Morris <webmaster@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>


<tt>
David,<BR>
> I saved all my coolfruit links, including many on
Sea<BR>
> Buckthorn on a Geocities page.  I have quite
a few Sea<BR>
> Buckthorn links.<BR>
> <BR>
> Check out the following link and click on the
link to<BR>
> "Sea Buckthorn":<BR>
> <BR>
> <a
href="http://www.geocities.com/elrey314159265359/hobbies/gardening/fruit/index.h\
tml">http://www.geocities.com/elrey314159265359/hobbies/gardening/fruit/index.ht\
ml</a><BR>
<BR>
I like what your doing with your page. I think its a
really essential <BR>
thing to do to have links to good sites about
particular plants.<BR>
I've been trying to encourage this on the PFAF
database pages with<BR>
the readers comments section. I've recently added a
section at the<BR>
bottom<BR>
of the database pages where people can add links to
other good sites.<BR>
<BR>
I was wondering if you fancy doing this (adding a link
to your pages)<BR>
for the different plants you mention. Its quite easy
to do, just find<BR>
the plant in the database at the UK site<BR>
      <a
href="http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/D_search.html">http://www.comp.leeds.ac.u\
k/pfaf/D_search.html</a><BR>
I'd do it myself but available time<BR>
is very much in the negative at the moment (500 emails
in the inbox).<BR>
<BR>
All the best<BR>
<BR>
      Rich<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
Plants for a Future: 7000 useful plants<BR>
Web:       <a
href="http://www.pfaf.org/">http://www.pfaf.org/</a> 
or  <a
href="http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/">http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/</a><B\
R>
Snail:     1 Lerryn View, Lerryn,
Lostwithiel Cornwall, PL22 0QJ<BR>
Tel:     
     01208 872 963 / 07813
067250      <BR>
Email:     webmaster@... <BR>
PFAF electronic mailing list <a
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf</a>\
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

<br>

<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->

<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"
color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
<td align=center width=470><table border=0
cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><font
face=arial size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.1994012.3473453.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705041\
947:HM/A=1036972/R=0/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?code=3466"targe
t=_top><img
src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ed/ediets/250x300_bluechair.jpg"alt="Cl\
ick
Here!" width="250" height="300"
border="0"></a></td></tr></table></td>
</tr>
<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=194081.1994012.3473453.1261774/D=egroupmai\
l/S=1705041947:HM/A=1036972/rand=133759312"></td></tr>
</table>

<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->


<br>
<tt>
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
pfaf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR>
<BR>
</tt>
<br>

<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>

</body></html>


________________________________________________________________________
Everything you always wanted to know about cars and bikes,now
  at: http://in.autos.yahoo.com

Dear friends,
              I need your help. Please send me the info
and ref. regarding the tissue culture or
micropropagation in sea buckthorne. Thanks
Rajesh

--- Richard Morris <webmaster@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>


<tt>
David,<BR>
> I saved all my coolfruit links, including many on
Sea<BR>
> Buckthorn on a Geocities page.  I have quite
a few Sea<BR>
> Buckthorn links.<BR>
> <BR>
> Check out the following link and click on the
link to<BR>
> "Sea Buckthorn":<BR>
> <BR>
> <a
href="http://www.geocities.com/elrey314159265359/hobbies/gardening/fruit/index.h\
tml">http://www.geocities.com/elrey314159265359/hobbies/gardening/fruit/index.ht\
ml</a><BR>
<BR>
I like what your doing with your page. I think its a
really essential <BR>
thing to do to have links to good sites about
particular plants.<BR>
I've been trying to encourage this on the PFAF
database pages with<BR>
the readers comments section. I've recently added a
section at the<BR>
bottom<BR>
of the database pages where people can add links to
other good sites.<BR>
<BR>
I was wondering if you fancy doing this (adding a link
to your pages)<BR>
for the different plants you mention. Its quite easy
to do, just find<BR>
the plant in the database at the UK site<BR>
      <a
href="http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/D_search.html">http://www.comp.leeds.ac.u\
k/pfaf/D_search.html</a><BR>
I'd do it myself but available time<BR>
is very much in the negative at the moment (500 emails
in the inbox).<BR>
<BR>
All the best<BR>
<BR>
      Rich<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
Plants for a Future: 7000 useful plants<BR>
Web:       <a
href="http://www.pfaf.org/">http://www.pfaf.org/</a> 
or  <a
href="http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/">http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/</a><B\
R>
Snail:     1 Lerryn View, Lerryn,
Lostwithiel Cornwall, PL22 0QJ<BR>
Tel:     
     01208 872 963 / 07813
067250      <BR>
Email:     webmaster@... <BR>
PFAF electronic mailing list <a
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf</a>\
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

<br>

<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->

<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"
color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
<td align=center width=470><table border=0
cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><font
face=arial size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.1994012.3473453.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705041\
947:HM/A=1036972/R=0/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?code=3466"targe
t=_top><img
src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ed/ediets/250x300_bluechair.jpg"alt="Cl\
ick
Here!" width="250" height="300"
border="0"></a></td></tr></table></td>
</tr>
<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=194081.1994012.3473453.1261774/D=egroupmai\
l/S=1705041947:HM/A=1036972/rand=133759312"></td></tr>
</table>

<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->


<br>
<tt>
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>
pfaf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR>
<BR>
</tt>
<br>

<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>

</body></html>


________________________________________________________________________
Everything you always wanted to know about cars and bikes,now
  at: http://in.autos.yahoo.com

Dear Rajesh,
>              I need your help. Please send me the info
> and ref. regarding the tissue culture or
> micropropagation in sea buckthorne.

I don't think we have details on this you can see our pages
	 http://www.com.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/hippo.html
	 http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/cgi-bin/pfaf/arr_html?Hippophae+salicifolia

If you follow some of the links then you might find further info.

	 Hope thats of some help

		 Rich
--
Plants for a Future: 7000 useful plants
Web:       http://www.pfaf.org/  or  http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/
Snail:     1 Lerryn View, Lerryn, Lostwithiel Cornwall, PL22 0QJ
Tel:      01208 872 963 / 07813 067250
Email:     webmaster@...
PFAF electronic mailing list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf

I read about Lathyrus on PFAF book,
I would like to stress that the interest about this plants is growing
in Italy after being almost abandoned.
It is typical in the very centre of Italy Umbria,Marche and some in
the South.
Here you may find some recipes and information in English,in links
here under.
In case you were interested will tell more ,

Angelo Barbetti
Buonconvento Siena Italy

I planted it this year and is going well despite bad and crazy
weather,with no work after sowing.


http://www.casalenelparco.com/e/prodotti.htm

http://usa.esperya.kataweb.it/test/letter_trial_and_error.html

http://www.formaggiokitchen.com/kitchen/Recipes/default.asp?dirlevel=1

http://usa.esperya.kataweb.it/recipes/insalata%20di%20cicerchia.html

http://usa.esperya.kataweb.it/cgi-bin/home/querydescrizione?
l=2320&d=8076&n=3

Dear friends,
        I need very urgentely some important info
on the following questions
1. Can two undomesticated wild seedling plants growing
in the natural environment (raised from seeds) ever be
genetically identical (not the similar) in all the
respects perticularly for molecular biology studies?
2.Can these two plants mentioned above be used as
control and treatment for molecular level studies such
as differential display and cDNA library construction,
where it is a question of looking for say one or two
DNA molecular species differeing among the control and
treatment?
3. Can these two plants growing in the vicinity of 100
meter from each other in their natural conditions be
used as control and treatment to study the effect of
environmental stresses perticularly low temperature
stress?

4. What do you think that in the vicinity of barely
100 meters there is going to be a drastic change in
the micro-climate of that area to that extent that one
plant can act as control at normal temperature while
other plant can be under freezing stress condition?

5.In your opinion how much of temperature variation
can be experienced by a plant growing under the snow
at a depth of 10-15 centimeters and the other plant
growing with in a ground distance of 100 meters
without snow.

6 Please confirm that can such a drastic variation
in the micro climate do occur in the nature in a small
area of 100 meters.

  I'll be greatful if you all could give your
expert advice and comment on these very basic
questions.
Thanking you.
With heartiest regards and best wishes to all of you
Rajesh Kr. Gupta



________________________________________________________________________
Want to sell your car? advertise on Yahoo Autos Classifieds. It's Free!!
        visit http://in.autos.yahoo.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Burnett" <grahamburnett@...>
To: <eco_vegans@yahoogroups.com>; <landandliberty_news@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 6:57 PM
Subject: [landandliberty_news] Forest Garden News June 23rd



I visited the forest garden at Manchester Drive, Leigh On Sea today for the
first time in a few weeks. Alot of grass had grown up but the thick mulches
of cut grass and weeds I'd put around the bases of the trees I'd planted
during winter & spring have been effective in holding moisture and keeping
down weed regrowth so these were fairly clear. Most of my time I spent
re-defining the paths, which were just starting to become indistinct, and
pulling up and cutting grass which I used to top up the mulches. I also
slashed back a fair bit of bramble which had also been re-encroaching using
my Chillington grass slasher which I recently obtained from the Permaculture
Magazine. On the plus side, it looks like there will be another good crop of
wild blackberries this year- last year's got made into wine, I made a couple
of gallons which went in a very short period of time- in fact it never even
made it to the bottling stage- delicious and highly potent- some of my more
<ahem> 'left-field' postings at Eco-Vegans & elsewhere have no doubt been
fueled by this brew :-)

Of the willows I planted in winter, 5 have survived and seem to be doing
well, although 4 have died. These I will replace in autumn or winter with
fresh cuttings. I'm not sure if the willows have produced enough growth this
year for me to have a go at creating some living willow sculptures or
furniture, but you never know...

The dwarf family apple tree (unsure which varieties!) that I obtained from
my mother's garden where it has never done very well was for the first time
ever laden with fruit, as was the Own rootstock Katy apple that I obtained
from Phil Corbett's 'Cool Temperate Nursery', and it broke my heart to have
to remove it all! Still, tempting as it was to leave it all, my logical
right brain managed to convince me that the trees need to put their energies
into getting established in this first year after planting if I'm to reap
the full benefits in later years...

I also noticed that the ORS Katy has a little damage around the base, looks
like strimmer damage but since that isn't possible maybe it's rabbits?
Anyway, I've created a protective barrier using cuttings from the slashed
back brambles which  I hope will be effective, and also has turned a
'problem' into a 'resource'...

I was surprised to see that a peach which I grew from a stone several years
ago and has ever since sat in a pot looking miserable that I decided to
plant at the forest garden is actually growing away healthily, although I
seriously doubt that it will ever fruit... On the downside though I do seem
to have lost a 'Stella' cherry on a 'Colt' rootstock which is a shame. it
has no leaves and looks very forlorn, although still has green wood just
below the bark so you never know.

I noticed that Ron's plum on his neighbouring plot (also a forest garden) is
fruiting abundantly, so I guess a couple of plums will go in next autumn as
well- there's still plenty of space.

The rowans & hazels that I planted are also looking good...

Still havn't done any grafting yet, but the rootstocks that Ron & I obtained
from Phil Corbett this winter are looking good and healthy...

The week after next ron & i will be doing an 'alternative tour' of
Manchester Drive allotment site, including our plots, and some of the wilder
areas, such as the Northern area of the site which has ben 'neglected', but
is in fact re-establishing as ash and oak woodland, and from whence we have
been harvesting ash poles for green woodworking projects. This is as a part
of the Manchester Drive Allotment Society Open Day, and is at the invitation
of Leigh Town Council & 'The Committee'- a sign that attitudes are at last
changing to accept 'other' ways of allotment gardening than straight rows of
veggies???

Still havn't got a website with photo's of the forest garden together yet,
watch this space...

I also fitted in a visit to my 'Zone 2' veggie production allotments today,
dug up the first of this years new potatoes, and some nice young beetroots-
you know summer's arrived when you have beetroots for tea and your first pee
of the following morning is bright pink! It scared me the first time it
happened but I'm used to it now...

Cheers for now, Graham Burnett

www.landandliberty.co.uk



This list is for announcements only regarding Land & Liberty and the
Manchester Drive Forest Garden project- if you'd like to become involved in
interactive discussion and debate why not join the Eco-Vegans & Earth
Citizens e-list- send a blank email to;
eco_vegans-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
landandliberty_news-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Susanne- I am not sure what the situation is regarding Robert's Forest
Garden, I'll forward your request to the Permaculture list so hopefully
somebody will have something up to date...

Graham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Susanne Völlm" <s.voellm@...>
To: <gburnett@...>
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:34 AM
Subject: Robert Harts Garden


> Hello there!
>
> I found your mailaddress via internet where you published an articel about
> Robert Harts garden. Do you know by any chance wether it is possible to
visit
> it? Who is taking care of the garden after Roberts death and where exactly
is
> it located? I can not find an address, so I suppose it is not  open to the
> public?
>
> Thanks for taking time to answer
>
> Susanne, Germany
>
>
>

I am trying to find a botanical name or another common name for a
Vietnamese tree called "ca chit".  I know this is a long shot but I
have run out of options.

Thank you in advance.

Does anyone know where I might be able to buy a variety of Elder with Pink leaves, I know it exists because I have seen it. Unfortunately I don’t know the latin name for the plant.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Paul Charnock

Hi- today was the Manchester Drive Allotment Society's open day, and Ron
Bates and I were invited to both sit on the 'Gardener's question time'
panel, along with 3 other more 'mainstream' 'gardening experts' (tho I don't
think Ron & I would put ourselves forwards as 'experts' by any means...) to
give the alternative/permacultural angle...

We were also invited to give an 'alternative tour' of the site, as a
counterpoint to the 'other' tour which was more about pointing out the prize
winning plots, best kept trimmed edges, etc, so had an opportunity to show
off our respective forest garden plots to, if not a huge crowd, at least an
appreciative handful of folks who seemed to find what we had to say of great
interest and were able to realise that what might appear to be chaotic and
unkept is actually orderly, planned and productive.

Highpoint of the day was when Ron found a slow worm in his compost bin,
which delighted the children present. Some other folk seemed impressed by
the relaxed and calm attitude of forest gardening, though we were careful to
stress that there is nothing intrinsicly WRONG with neatness and (aesthetic)
order- allotment sites should be open to a diversity of approaches (but
chemical gardening should still be discouraged...)

We were both able to explian that our plots are vegan organic in their
management as well...

We also looked at janet hammond's 'conventional' organic plot as well, she
sits on Leigh Town Council, the Manchester Drive Allotments Committee (as
well as Southend's Local Agenda 21 forum) and is very supportive of what Ron
and I are trying to achieve, which is very heartening.

As i said not a huge amount of folk turned out for the tour, but those that
did were inspired, and I think encouraged by seeing that there are other
ways of allotemnt management than growing neat rows of leeks and cabbages...

Local Leigh On Sea artist and allotmenteer Howard Robinson
http://www.leigharttrail.co.uk/Robinson,%20Howard.htm asked permission to do
some artwork, either drawings or paintings of the forest gardens, we were
only too pleased to say yes- watch this space...

And I sold 2 books- all in all a sucessful day :-)

Cheers Graham
www.landandliberty.co.uk

Resent in case you'd rather not open an attachment...

----- Original Message -----
From: peter white
To: JO at viva ; HELEN LEAR ; HDRA ; BURNETT G ; glebelands@... ;
merci@...
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 1:03 PM
Subject: VON COURSE


Hi
Attached are fuller details of the forthcoming weekend course mentioned in
the latest issue of Growing Green, it would be very helpful if you could
bring this to the attention of anyone who may be interested.

Very best wishes

Peter

THE VEGAN-ORGANIC NETWORK
TRAINING WEEKEND
20th and 21st July
Venue - Bethel Church (United Reform)- Westhoughton, Bolton.
A chance to learn the latest practical vegan-organic horticultural skills in
a friendly, informal, hands-on setting. The course will be based at local
community allotments and we've hired the church hall for indoor sessions.
Come for either day or both; cost including lunch is £15 per day or £25 for
both. All are welcome. A deposit of £5 per day will secure your place. To
book and for more info contact Jenny Hall,20 Hawthorn Ave, Orrell, Wigan,
WN5 8NQ. Phone 07855 392 037 email jennymosscentre@...

Saturdays programme
10.00 Welcome and introductions
Information participants would like to gain from course
10.30 Community gardening and sustainability
Dave Fearnley from Westhoughton Home Grown (WHG) introduces you to Hall Lee
Bank community garden and woodlands
12.30 Lunch
1.00 Vegan-Organics - what's it all about ?
Jenny Hall introduces the ideas of feeding populations, closed systems,
resource use, maintaining soil fertility, composting and green manures
2.45 Tea break
3.00 Make your way to Central Drive for the Herb spiral guided tour
Kath Baron (WHG) short talk about the use of herbs
3.30 Practical composting - Joe Wolf
Sundays programme
10.00 Wildlife and forest gardening
Nick Fox takes you on a practical walk
12.00 Lunch
1.00 Designing a crop rotation
Jenny Hall introduces the Tolhurst rotation, designing a rotation
incorporating green manures, vegetable families
2.30 Tea break
2.45 Keeping an allotment
Peter Neiderlag and Peter White discuss their successful allotments and give
practical advice relating to participants own circumstances
4.00 Close

Cat,
         I've passed your query onto out PFAF mailing list
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf
someone there may be interested.

                 Rich

Catyunque@... wrote:
>
> While looking at a site on bamboo discovered a threat of flowering
> in India that may cause famine.  I am living in West Virginia and
> was planning to plant bamboo but am told seeds are rare.  Has
> anyone considered collecting the seeds of this rare flowering for
> sale?  The famine is caused by the increase in rats that enjoy the
> seeds and the rat pop. then goes on to eat
> the crops.  Bamboo is edible, an earth friendly fast growing > > resource. 
What say you?  Can you get seeds for some of the cold
> hardy timber verities?
> For the good of all
> Thank you Cat

-
Plants for a Future: 7000 useful plants
Web:       http://www.pfaf.org/  or  http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/
Snail:     1 Lerryn View, Lerryn, Lostwithiel Cornwall, PL22 0QJ
Tel:      01208 872 963 / 07813 067250
Email:     webmaster@...
PFAF electronic mailing list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pfaf

Dear friends,
                           I  need your kind help once
again.  I would like to know what are the different
tissue culture media apart from MS, Gamborge, White,
Lloyd and McCown WP, Vacin and Went, Hoagland, Nitsch
and Nitsch, Modified Knudson C etc which can be used
perticularly for the tissue culture of woody plants. I
will greatly appreciate if you could please send me
the detailed composition of  these woody plant culture
media along with different plant hormones and  other
additives used in them.
With heartiest regards and best wishes to all of you,
Very Sincerely yours
Rajesh kr.Gupta.












________________________________________________________________________
Want to sell your car? advertise on Yahoo Autos Classifieds. It's Free!!
        visit http://in.autos.yahoo.com

Dear Pfaf staff,

I am using your data base (here in Patagonia, south Argentina) and I have
two questions about:

1- meaning of "maritime expositions" ... is salt of air the factor of
exposition?

2- effects of wind on plants ...  broken branches?

(Because I dont know Who can to answer me, I sent this mail to both
addresses)

Sincerely yours,

Osvaldo Herrera
osherrera7@...