no

who thinks they are unfit? that was the RUC, right?

--- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, Erich Klinger
<Erich.Klinger@...> wrote:
>
> Recently, the media reported that body parts belonging to 9/11
hijackers have been found by a specialized team sifting through
thousands of tons of the Twin Towers rubble. This was the result of
years of work by dedicated men and women. Reports have also been
published in Northern Ireland that the PSNI are to no longer to
continue investigating the Omagh Bombing, Mccarthy murder, and the 26
million Northern Bank robbery.
> Should the PSNI be disbanded as being unfit for purpose, and
replaced by a foreign force capable of producing results.
>

Recently, the media reported that body parts belonging to 9/11 hijackers have
been found by a specialized team sifting through thousands of tons of the Twin
Towers rubble. This was the result of years of work by dedicated men and women.
Reports have also been published in Northern Ireland that the PSNI are to no
longer to continue investigating the Omagh Bombing, Mccarthy murder, and the 26
million Northern Bank robbery.
Should the PSNI be disbanded as being unfit for purpose, and replaced by a
foreign force capable of producing results.

A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, folks.
Any one still here, that is ;-)

Paul

--- Erich Klinger <erich_klinger@...> wrote:
>
> I would like to take time to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a
Happy New Year.
> Â
> And eagerly wait returning in 2009 for discussions to resume on the
condition of the Ulster British and Ulster Nationalist existence at
Stormont.
> Â
> Klinger.
>
>

I would like to take time to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy New
Year.
 
And eagerly wait returning in 2009 for discussions to resume on the condition of
the Ulster British and Ulster Nationalist existence at Stormont.
 
Klinger.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

my prescription is for NI and it is includes an apology from and
dismantling of the orange order which I believe was at the heart of
all that was evil and which brought about the recent war.

I don't think you could actually articulate my opinions since you are
so closed-minded yourself.  I've identified over a long period of time
how your beliefs are akin to those who caused NI's problems in the
first place.

you can debate with me even if you are bigoted.  why do you find that
so strange?  is it that you don't like your bigotry being debated?

slainte, patrick


--- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> If you really are so convinced that everyone who disagrees with your
> prescription for Ireland is utterly bigoted, then it will be difficult
> to have a rational debate with you.
>
> But if you already "know" that everyone else is evil, why are you even
> bothering?
>
> Paul
>
> --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, paddy221666
> <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > "However, as you also know, most people in the North East
> > of the Island wanted no truck with a Dublin-based government,
> > whether inside or outside the Union."
> >
> > so most people in the NE of Ireland wanted no truck with the
> > Dublin-based government since 1801?  whinning bunch really.
> >
> > no, I think protestant bigots in the NE corner wanted nothing to do
> > with catholics.  simple religious fanaticism was behind the war in NI.
> >  religious zealots encouraging treason.
> >
> > partition was never considered a viable option for appeasing their
> > bigotry.  it was a nod to irish protestant intransigence.
> >
> > pps
> >
> > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm sure you know perfectly well what I mean, Patrick.
> > > The country was indeed politically one at that time, as it
> > > had been since the 1801 act of Union.
> > >
> > > Irish separatists wanted to leave the union, and they had
> > > a degree of support in the South and East of the island.
> > > This support grew significantly after the dreadful mishandling
> > > of the Easter Rising.
> > >
> > > However, as you also know, most people in the North East
> > > of the Island wanted no truck with a Dublin-based government,
> > > whether inside or outside the Union.
> > >
> > > It is a rather futile debating point to what degree any of
> > > the parties were "traitors" to (a) the United Kingdom,
> > > (b) a mythic free and independent, albeit politically
> > > non-existent, Ireland, or (c) the United Kingdom government,
> > > when it proposed the breakup of the Union. Apart from
> > > name-calling, and an entirely spurious sense of
> > > moral superiority, there is little to be gained.
> > >
> > > It is clear that Ireland contained two groups with
> > > mutually incompatible goals - Independence from Britain,
> > > versus continuation of the Union. Partition, or ruthless
> > > suppression, were the only alternatives.
> > >
> > > I'm thankful that the zealots who wanted to fight on until
> > > they had achieved all their goals - or killed everyone - did
> > > not carry the day.
> > >
> > > If you want to see the results of that approach, look at
> > > Sri Lanka, where an extremist nationalist government and
> > > extremist separatists are conspiring to drag the country
> > > back into the civil war it only escaped a decade or so ago.
> > >
> > > regards
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > the country was 'one' before your unionist
> > > > terrorists git going.  you should also know
> > > > those terrorists were not being forced out.  they had
> > > > every right to remain in ireland had they not been
> > > > so desparate for the teats of king and country.
> > > >
> > > > they were treasonous an cowardly old orange bigots, that's all.
> > > >
> > > > you are still in need of an education.
> > > >
> > > > regards, patrick
> > > >
> > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I rather suspect they would have claimed loyalty to King and
> > Country,
> > > > > rather than to any particular administration - least of all
> one that
> > > > > was trying to break up the country and force them out.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards,
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Paul,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > you seem to have gone 'dark'.  any reason?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I was waiting to see how you would respond to my last post
> before
> > > > > > enlightening you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the first unionist terror group, founded by the orange
order and
> > > > > > supported massively by protestants living in the NE corner of
> > > ireland
> > > > > > were in fact treasonous to the british crown and people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm constantly amazed at the depth of ignorance within the old
> > > orange
> > > > > > community.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > patrick
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just so we're quite clear about what you're saying - against
> > > > > > > which country were they committing treason? Were they
traitors
> > > > > > > to Ireland, or to the British Crown?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I know that you subscribe to the old orange ideology and
> > > that you
> > > > > > > > prefer ignorance to enlightenment but I'll just throw
> this out
> > > > > in case
> > > > > > > >  there is actually anybody else coming here.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > when your old orange ancestors set up a provisional
> > > government and
> > > > > > > > armed a protestant militia, they were in fact committing
> > > treason.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > now, do you wish to remain ignorant or do you want to
get an
> > > > > education
> > > > > > > > in the culture you so fervently defend, in spite of the
> shame
> > > > it has
> > > > > > > > garnered?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > you see, your immoral notions of loyalty do not exempt you
> > > > from the
> > > > > > > > laws of the country into which you are born.  even snotty
> > > > protestant
> > > > > > > > landowners, industrialists, politicians and clergy are not
> > > > above the
> > > > > > > law.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > never were and never will again.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. However, none
> > > > > > > > > of what you wrote explains how it can possibly be
> > > > > > > > > treason to want to remain part of the state you were
> > > > > > > > > born in (the UK, in this case).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > > > > > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of
Ireland
> > > > > > > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or
why the
> > > > > > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary
> > > > > > > > > state before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't waste my time trying to furnish you with
> > > > > > > > > > enough material to overcome your innate ignorance of
> > > > > > > > > > the history of NI.  you being an old orange, you will
> > > > > > > > > > have been well brainwashed into avoiding the truth
> > > > > > > > > > rather than taking an objective look at it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > the people of ireland should have been governing the
> > > > > > > > > > whole country since shortly after 1918 when the
people
> > > > > > > > > > of ireland voted over 75% to determine their own
> > destiny.
> > > > > > > > > > if it had not been for the religious bigots in the NE
> > > > > > > > > > corner, and a lot of treasonous help from others, it
> > > > > > > > > > would have happened as promised.  if there had been
> > > > > > > > > > no threat of violence from bigoted irish protestants
> > > > > > > > > > the country could have enjoyed normal society.
> > > > > > > > > > instead, the bigots filled your heads with fear and
> > > > > > > > > > loathing that led ultimately to spontaneous sectarian
> > > > > > > > > > murder on the street of belfast in 1966 that signaled
> > > > > > > > > > the final demise of the old orange regime.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > admit it, your old orange culture simply hated people
> > > > > > > > > > of another Christian faith.  if you admit that, you
> > > > > > > > > > might feel better about yourself.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I see there seems to be only you and me here.
> > > > > > > > > > I suppose if I stopped posting you'd be happier.
> > > > > > > > > > that way Alan and his old orange buddies
> > > > > > > > > > could come here too.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > None of that explains how it can possibly be
> treason to
> > > > > > > > > > > want to remain part of the state you were born in
> > (the UK,
> > > > > > > > > > > in this case).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of
> stone
> > > > > > > > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of
> > Ireland
> > > > > > > > > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or
> > why the
> > > > > > > > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a
unitary
> > > state
> > > > > > > > > > > before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > it's such a blur of activity here I almost
> missed your
> > > > post.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > the inhabitants of ireland were and still are
irish.
> > >  that
> > > > > > part
> > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > was partitioned off to remain under the control of
> > > england
> > > > > > > > > became NI.
> > > > > > > > > > > >  the people there are british subjects.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > the people who caused NI to be created used
> > treason and
> > > > > > > > blackmail to
> > > > > > > > > > > > achieve their goal.  they were irish
protestants who
> > > were
> > > > > > > consumed
> > > > > > > > > > > > with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by their
> > > > > > religious and
> > > > > > > > > > > > political leaders. it's historic fact.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ireland as a nation held an election in 1918 the
> > > result of
> > > > > > > > which was
> > > > > > > > > > > > an overwhelming majority of the irish people in
> favour
> > > > > of home
> > > > > > > > rule
> > > > > > > > > > > > for the island.  this had previously been agreed
> upon
> > > > > > > between the
> > > > > > > > > > > > dublin and london governments and would have been
> > > > instituted
> > > > > > > > excpet
> > > > > > > > > > > > for the intervention of WW1.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > in any election there will be those who voted
> for the
> > > > > > > majority and
> > > > > > > > > > > > those who voted for the minority.  most civilised
> > > peoples
> > > > > > > > understand
> > > > > > > > > > > > this.  not however the protestant bigots in the NE
> > > corner
> > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > island.  they, like you, seemed to think they
> had the
> > > > > right to
> > > > > > > > deny
> > > > > > > > > > > > the will of the majority in ireland while at the
> > > same time
> > > > > > > denying
> > > > > > > > > > > > civil and religious liberty for the minority of
> > > > > > non-protestants
> > > > > > > > > in NI
> > > > > > > > > > > > that were stranded there following the partition
> > of the
> > > > > > island.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > this of course is the primary trait of an old
> > orange for
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > ruled in
> > > > > > > > > > > > this fashion until 1972 when the english realised
> > > they had
> > > > > > > > > handed over
> > > > > > > > > > > > a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil bigots,
> most of
> > > > whom
> > > > > > > > > supported
> > > > > > > > > > > > the ideals of the orange order and the biggest
bigot
> > > > of all,
> > > > > > > > > paisley.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > starting in 1972 the english commenced a program
> that
> > > > would
> > > > > > > > deny the
> > > > > > > > > > > > old oranges any further opportunities to
> discriminate
> > > > > > against UK
> > > > > > > > > > > > citizens.  this relieved the tremendous
> > > embarrassment the
> > > > > > whole
> > > > > > > > > affair
> > > > > > > > > > > > had become for the once proud and might english.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > your old orange credentials have been trotted out
> > enough
> > > > > times
> > > > > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > > > > and has probably caused whatever members there
> were to
> > > > > > vacate.
> > > > > > > > > today,
> > > > > > > > > > > > most enlightened people would not subscribe to
your
> > > screwy
> > > > > > > > > ideas.  the
> > > > > > > > > > > > old orange culture of NI is not worth
defending.  it
> > > > had no
> > > > > > > moral
> > > > > > > > > > > > fibre to hold any argument presented by any old
> > orange -
> > > > > in or
> > > > > > > > > out of
> > > > > > > > > > > > ireland.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > thankfully, today in NI non-protestants have
> civil and
> > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > > rights equal to any UK citizen.  that wasn't the
> case
> > > > under
> > > > > > > > the old
> > > > > > > > > > > > oranges.  that's what gets old oranges like you so
> > > > > depressed.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignoring your abuse, for the moment, I'll just
> > > > > > > > > > > > > point out that...
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The inhabitants of what became Northern Ireland
> > > > > > > > > > > > > were British subjects, so trying to remain
> British
> > > > > > > > > > > > > could hardly be treason.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > There was no referendum in Ireland in 1918 on
> > national
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "self-determination". There was just an
> election to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > parliament. It became abundantly clear that
views
> > > > > > > > > > > > > on where their future lay were very
different in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the North East from those in the South and
West.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no law of the universe that one land
> mass
> > > > > > > > > > > > > must be a single state. There are land
borders in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > North America and the main land mass of
> > Scandinavia,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to name just two examples. Britain itself
has been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > separate states, and today is a Union of
> kingdoms.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Even Ireland was not a single kingdom in any
real
> > > > > > > > > > > > > sense before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Your other claims have been pre-refuted in this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > group many times already, so I'll not weary the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > members with a repetition. Feel free to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > read the archives for enlightenment!
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, I'll paraphrase you: Your tired green
> > > > > > > > > > > > > argument only works if you subscribe to green
> > > > > > > > > > > > > principles with respect to democracy and how it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > should operate :-)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not pretending anything.  you're an old
> > > orange as
> > > > > > > > > > > demonstrated by
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > your sympathies and your ignorance.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > my views on the old orange culture you so
> > fervently
> > > > > > > > support are
> > > > > > > > > > > widely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > held.  it was an abomination of evil and
terror.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > NI was founded to appease protestant irish
> > religious
> > > > > > > > bigots who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > happened to form a majority in the 6
counties of
> > > > ireland
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > lovingly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > renamed 'ulster'.  they used treason,
> > blackmail and
> > > > > > > > violence to
> > > > > > > > > > > force
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the partition of the country.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > in 1918 the whole population of the undivided
> > > country
> > > > > > > voted by
> > > > > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 70% to seek national self determination.
> > something
> > > > > > > > hundreds of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > thousands of irish men and women fought in
> WW1 to
> > > > > > > achieve for
> > > > > > > > > > > similar
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > smaller countries elsewhere.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > your tired old orange argument only works
if you
> > > > > subscribe
> > > > > > > > > to old
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > orange principles with respect to
democracy and
> > > how it
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > operate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >   only an old orange like yourself could
> > > advocate for
> > > > > > > the will
> > > > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > minority so long as that minority is
protestant.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the old orange culture you hold so dearly
had no
> > > > respect
> > > > > > > > for the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > catholic minority in NI.  they suppressed
> them for
> > > > their
> > > > > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > beliefs and denied them equal civil rights to
> > > > > protestants.
> > > > > > > >  this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > carried on until 1972 when the situation
> became so
> > > > > > > > > > embarrassing for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the english they had to dismantle the
whole lot.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > now the whole country of ireland is being
> > > governed by
> > > > > > equals
> > > > > > > > > > in fair
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and democratic elections.  many, many innocent
> > > people
> > > > > > > > would have
> > > > > > > > > > > lived
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > longer lives if the bigoted irish
> protestants who
> > > > > > forced the
> > > > > > > > > > > creation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > of NI had accepted the will of democracy and
> > > developed
> > > > > > > > civilised
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > society in normal partnership with their
fellow
> > > > > > citizens who
> > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > happened to be believers in another Christian
> > faith.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > fortunately, the days when 'ulster'
protestants
> > > > get what
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > want are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > over.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you should do some more reading of NI history
> > > and the
> > > > > > > > bigots who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > caused way more trouble than they were
> worth.  you
> > > > might
> > > > > > > give
> > > > > > > > > > up on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > fighting a losing battle.  the old orange days
> > in NI
> > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > discredited
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > a long time ago.  you're in a severe
> minority with
> > > > your
> > > > > > > > > > support for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > religious discrimination of whatever
> proportion.
> > > > only a
> > > > > > > > > true old
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > orange could hold onto an immoral set of
> values by
> > > > > > > > claiming that
> > > > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > could be worse.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ps still only you and me here.  how's it going
> > > over at
> > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > > > other site
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > - the one you banned me from?  is it the
> same old
> > > > > > repetitive
> > > > > > > > > > > postings
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > from Alan.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you're still pretending that
> disagreeing with
> > > > > > your just
> > > > > > > > > > > slightly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > extreme views makes me an "old orange".
Since
> > > nobody
> > > > > > > but you
> > > > > > > > > > knows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what that means, I'll try not to get too
> > upset :)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's try to find some points (rather than
> mere
> > > > abuse)
> > > > > > > > in your
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > message, and examine them again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland was not founded "to
> divide and
> > > > > > partition
> > > > > > > > > > > ireland".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland was partitioned, and the Irish Free
> > > > State and
> > > > > > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > were formed BECAUSE Ireland was ALREADY
> > DIVIDED on
> > > > > > how it
> > > > > > > > > wanted
> > > > > > > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ruled.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You might well have preferred that the
> > million or
> > > > > so UK
> > > > > > > > > > > citizens who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > formed the greater number in the north
> east were
> > > > > > > > > unceremoniously
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ejected, and forced into a confessional
state.
> > > Some
> > > > > > > > Unionists
> > > > > > > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have preferred the several million in the
> south
> > > > > and east
> > > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > forced
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to stay in the Union with Britain. But it
> is not
> > > > > > > possible to
> > > > > > > > > > give
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everyone what they want.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The settlement was that both communities
> > would be
> > > > > > > allowed to
> > > > > > > > > > > express
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their identity, and live in the state to
which
> > > > > they gave
> > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > alliegance. Because the Irish people as a
> whole
> > > > > did not
> > > > > > > > have a
> > > > > > > > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > view on how they should be governed, a
> line was
> > > > drawn.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pleased to see you're not justifying
PIRA
> > > > > > > atrocities as
> > > > > > > > > > > > such, even
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > while you try to absolve them of any actual
> > > > > > > responsibility.
> > > > > > > > > > Do you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > believe in some sort of marxist historical
> > > > > necessity? An
> > > > > > > > > > > inevitable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > revolution brought about by the
contradictions
> > > > > inherent
> > > > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > > > > > > system?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's bunk. If people kill, maim, and bomb
> - THEY
> > > > > > must take
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > responsibility.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your attempt to shift the blame is
> offensive and
> > > > > > > > wrong-headed:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "your lot started the murderous
> campaigns and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with treason and violence forced a
> > situation..."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You seem to have difficulty reading that I
> > > condemned
> > > > > > > > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > where it occurred in the North - so I'll
> say it
> > > > > again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I. condemn. discrimination. where. it.
> > > occurred. in.
> > > > > > the.
> > > > > > > > > north.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To avoid hypocrisy, I'll also condemn it
> in the
> > > > South.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are free to disbelieve me when I
point out
> > > that
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > was less
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > discrimination in the north than you claim
> > (and no
> > > > > "holy
> > > > > > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > war"). Similarly, you can ignore any
hint that
> > > > > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > > > happened
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the south as well. If it makes it easier,
> > > you can
> > > > > > > pretend
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > events in the south were "irrelevant" to the
> > > > views and
> > > > > > > > > > actions of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people in the north. You would still be
wrong,
> > > > though.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, you dismiss the Southern reluctance
> > > to act
> > > > > > > > > against the
> > > > > > > > > > > > IRA as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "a grand display of old orange ignorance".
> > Are you
> > > > > > denying
> > > > > > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > southern administration or its members ran
> > guns to
> > > > > > the IRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > (Haughey),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or allowed training camps to operate with
> > > > impunity in
> > > > > > > > > > Donegal and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > other border counties, or dragged their
> feet on
> > > > > > > extradition,
> > > > > > > > > > > > sometimes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > refusing outright to make terrorists
> answer for
> > > > their
> > > > > > > crimes
> > > > > > > > > > in a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > court of law, or refused to allow hot
pursuit
> > > > over the
> > > > > > > > > > border - to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > such an extent that terrorists could sit
> safely
> > > > in the
> > > > > > > > > > > Republic, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remotely detonate bombs against targets in
> > > Northern
> > > > > > > Ireland?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was not until the atrocities of 9/11
> that the
> > > > > > > > hypocritical
> > > > > > > > > > > double
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > standard of the Irish (and US)
government with
> > > > > regard to
> > > > > > > > > > > > terrorism in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland was seriously threatened.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And just because I don't have time to
> refute all
> > > > your
> > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > > throw away
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > accusations and misleading or selective
> > > > > > > characterisations of
> > > > > > > > > > > events,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > don't assume that I agree with the rest of
> > > what you
> > > > > > wrote.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "when it was founded after the south
got its
> > > > > autonomy"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it was founded to divide and partition
> > ireland.
> > > > > > to say
> > > > > > > > > it had
> > > > > > > > > > > > > faults
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is a huge understatement.  NI
> governments are
> > > > > > > > characterised
> > > > > > > > > > > by the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bigotry that directed policy.  in my book
> > it was
> > > > > > an evil
> > > > > > > > > > period
> > > > > > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the years the old orange bigots
> controlled NI.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you're the one hooked on justifying old
> orange
> > > > > > actions.
> > > > > > > > > > I'm not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > justifying (P)IRA terrorism.  you're just
> > > > > raising the
> > > > > > > > > spectre
> > > > > > > > > > > > of an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > old orange again.  you're true to form all
> > > right.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > your lot started the murderous
campaigns and
> > > with
> > > > > > > > > treason and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > violence
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > forced a situation to develop that
> encouraged
> > > > > > > spontaneous
> > > > > > > > > > > > murder of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > innocent catholics.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from the 1920s to 1972, until it was
> > > > dismantled, NI
> > > > > > > > > > protestants
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > supported by popular vote the continued
> > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enacted on their behalf against fellow UK
> > > > citizens.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the actions of the (P)IRA during the war
> were
> > > > > > > harnessed by
> > > > > > > > > > > the old
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > oranges to their harsh treatment of fellow
> > > > citizens.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > looks to me like you only see
republicans as
> > > > > evil.  I
> > > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > > > > disagree
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with you on that.  the problem though is
> every
> > > > > time I
> > > > > > > > expose
> > > > > > > > > > > > some of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the evil that was unionist politics or
> > terrorism
> > > > > > you go
> > > > > > > > > > > ape-shit.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "or the Southern reluctance to act
> against the
> > > > IRA."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a grand display of old orange ignorance.
>  you
> > > > > > really do
> > > > > > > > > > need to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > read a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bit more.  the forum looks a bit
neglected.
> > >  there
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > seems
> > > > > > > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the two of us.  I hope things improve
before
> > > > you ban
> > > > > > > > me from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > here too.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In
> peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course there were faults with the
> > Northern
> > > > > Irish
> > > > > > > > > > government
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > between
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 1920s, when it was founded after the
> > south
> > > > > > got its
> > > > > > > > > > > > > autonomy, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1972, when it was taken over by
> > Westminster -
> > > > > > > > > > particularly if
> > > > > > > > > > > > > we are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > judging by the standards of today.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it is a travesty to pretend that
such
> > > > > faults as
> > > > > > > > > > there were
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > in any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > way justified, much less forced, the
IRA's
> > > > > murderous
> > > > > > > > > > > campaign to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > undermine the wishes of the greater
> > number of
> > > > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > > > Ireland's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > citizens to live at peace in the Union.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be an equal travesty to
> > maintain that
> > > > > > > southern
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > collusion with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the IRA, or such institutional
> > sectarianism as
> > > > > > existed
> > > > > > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > southern
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > state, justified the loyalist bombings
> > > > there. That
> > > > > > > > > could not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > even be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > justified by IRA atrocities in the
North,
> > > or the
> > > > > > > > Southern
> > > > > > > > > > > > > reluctance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to act against the IRA.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you somehow conceive that these views
> > make
> > > > > me an
> > > > > > > > > > > > apologist for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bigotry, that is your right and
privilege.
> > > It's
> > > > > > still
> > > > > > > > > > > > tendentious
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nonsense though, and you really
shouldn't
> > > assume
> > > > > > > that I
> > > > > > > > > > agree.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your monomaniacal insistence that
all the
> > > evils
> > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > past
> > > > > > > > > > > > > century
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can be laid at the door of the
> community of
> > > > > > which you
> > > > > > > > > > are not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a part
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seems like a self-serving
rationalisation,
> > > > wilful
> > > > > > > > > > > blindness, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > smacks not a little of the type of
> > bigotry you
> > > > > > see in
> > > > > > > > > > everyone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > else.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you have any ideas on peacemaking
> beyond
> > > > > > > getting all
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > protestants to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wear sackcloth and ashes for ever?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you picked the title, not me.  you
> > > define it,
> > > > > > > not me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as for useful discussion, I'm at a
loss.
> > >  you
> > > > > > hardly
> > > > > > > > > > > ever come
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and when you do it's mostly to
> > chastise me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the old orange regime was terrible.
> > it was
> > > > > > morally
> > > > > > > > > > > > bankrupt and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > evil
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but was kept alive too long.  it
> > > > eventually got
> > > > > > > NI its
> > > > > > > > > > > recent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > war.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that's what happens when morally
> bankrupt
> > > > > regimes
> > > > > > > > exist.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not impressed with your
observation
> > > > > since you
> > > > > > > > exist
> > > > > > > > > > > within
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an old
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > orange bubble that hasn't burst yet.
> > > this is
> > > > > > > what is
> > > > > > > > > > > still a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in NI.  too many brain-washed and
> > > ignorant old
> > > > > > > > oranges.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  --- In
> > > > peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Patrick asks "why not". If someone
> > > sincerely
> > > > > > > > > > believes that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Peace in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland" is the same as
"why
> > > > one side
> > > > > > > > is are
> > > > > > > > > > > not to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > blame at
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all, and the other lot caused it
all",
> > > > then it
> > > > > > > > is hard
> > > > > > > > > > > > to see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > he or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > she could join in any useful
> > discussion of
> > > > > > peace,
> > > > > > > > > beyond
> > > > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kind of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > futile "'aren't "they" terrible',
> mutual
> > > > > > > > back-slapping
> > > > > > > > > > > > circle.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for using the phrase "the
accepted
> > > > > opinion of
> > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people" to bolster his personal
> > > > interpretation
> > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > conflict, I'll
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > point out that the consensus among
> > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > observers is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "war" in Northern Ireland was
> political,
> > > > > > > rather than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > religious. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > situation was clearly inflamed by
> ethnic
> > > > > > > > tensions, but
> > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > was no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > religious war as such. As opposed
> to the
> > > > 16th
> > > > > > > > century,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > nobody was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > killed over their views on, say,
> > > > > > > > > transubstantiation. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > minority who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tried periodically throughout
the 20th
> > > > > > century to
> > > > > > > > > > > > overturn the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > settlement reached in the 1920s were
> > > > fighting
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > politics and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > land.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those who opposed them were
defending
> > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > government, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > resisting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > encroachment by what at the time
was a
> > > > > > > > > backward-looking,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > impoverished,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and censorious state.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Things have moved on, fortunately.
> > > > Citizens on
> > > > > > > both
> > > > > > > > > > sides
> > > > > > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > border are better off. And
practically
> > > > > nobody is
> > > > > > > > > > trying to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > impose
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their will by murder and bombing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, if we can mop up the remaining
> > > thugs as
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > try to
> > > > > > > > > > > > hold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their power by organising crime
> empires,
> > > > > and if
> > > > > > > > we can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > improve the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > democracy of the structures of
> > > > government, and
> > > > > > > avoid
> > > > > > > > > > > > > losing our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hard-won freedoms to inflated
hysteria
> > > over
> > > > > > > > "Islamic"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > terrorism
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (or US
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "imperialism"), if we can address
> > > > factors that
> > > > > > > > > > threaten us
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all, like
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > institutional global
inequalities and
> > > global
> > > > > > > > warming,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > things may
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > continue to improve.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why not Paul?  if you spent some
> > > time here
> > > > > > > we just
> > > > > > > > > > > > might get
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > debate but you seem reluctant to
> > > > > challenge the
> > > > > > > > > > accepted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > opinion of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > many reasonable people that if
> the old
> > > > > > > oranges of
> > > > > > > > > > NI (of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are still toooooo many) had
dropped
> > > their
> > > > > > > > > > religious war
> > > > > > > > > > > > > on RCs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would have been no war
recently.  if
> > > > > ignorant
> > > > > > > > bigots
> > > > > > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > paisley
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hadn't aroused ancient hatreds
> > among his
> > > > > > > sect they
> > > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > more satisfied now than they are
> > having
> > > > > > lost the
> > > > > > > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > battle.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In
> > > > > peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm off on holidays. Feel
free to
> > > > discuss
> > > > > > > > > "peace in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > while I'm out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note to Patrick - that is not
> > > > NECESSARILY
> > > > > > > > the same
> > > > > > > > > > > > as "why
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the fault of the other side".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

If you really are so convinced that everyone who disagrees with your
prescription for Ireland is utterly bigoted, then it will be difficult
to have a rational debate with you.

But if you already "know" that everyone else is evil, why are you even
bothering?

Paul

--- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, paddy221666
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> "However, as you also know, most people in the North East
> of the Island wanted no truck with a Dublin-based government,
> whether inside or outside the Union."
>
> so most people in the NE of Ireland wanted no truck with the
> Dublin-based government since 1801?  whinning bunch really.
>
> no, I think protestant bigots in the NE corner wanted nothing to do
> with catholics.  simple religious fanaticism was behind the war in NI.
>  religious zealots encouraging treason.
>
> partition was never considered a viable option for appeasing their
> bigotry.  it was a nod to irish protestant intransigence.
>
> pps
>
> --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure you know perfectly well what I mean, Patrick.
> > The country was indeed politically one at that time, as it
> > had been since the 1801 act of Union.
> >
> > Irish separatists wanted to leave the union, and they had
> > a degree of support in the South and East of the island.
> > This support grew significantly after the dreadful mishandling
> > of the Easter Rising.
> >
> > However, as you also know, most people in the North East
> > of the Island wanted no truck with a Dublin-based government,
> > whether inside or outside the Union.
> >
> > It is a rather futile debating point to what degree any of
> > the parties were "traitors" to (a) the United Kingdom,
> > (b) a mythic free and independent, albeit politically
> > non-existent, Ireland, or (c) the United Kingdom government,
> > when it proposed the breakup of the Union. Apart from
> > name-calling, and an entirely spurious sense of
> > moral superiority, there is little to be gained.
> >
> > It is clear that Ireland contained two groups with
> > mutually incompatible goals - Independence from Britain,
> > versus continuation of the Union. Partition, or ruthless
> > suppression, were the only alternatives.
> >
> > I'm thankful that the zealots who wanted to fight on until
> > they had achieved all their goals - or killed everyone - did
> > not carry the day.
> >
> > If you want to see the results of that approach, look at
> > Sri Lanka, where an extremist nationalist government and
> > extremist separatists are conspiring to drag the country
> > back into the civil war it only escaped a decade or so ago.
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > the country was 'one' before your unionist
> > > terrorists git going.  you should also know
> > > those terrorists were not being forced out.  they had
> > > every right to remain in ireland had they not been
> > > so desparate for the teats of king and country.
> > >
> > > they were treasonous an cowardly old orange bigots, that's all.
> > >
> > > you are still in need of an education.
> > >
> > > regards, patrick
> > >
> > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I rather suspect they would have claimed loyalty to King and
> Country,
> > > > rather than to any particular administration - least of all
one that
> > > > was trying to break up the country and force them out.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul,
> > > > >
> > > > > you seem to have gone 'dark'.  any reason?
> > > > >
> > > > > I was waiting to see how you would respond to my last post
before
> > > > > enlightening you.
> > > > >
> > > > > the first unionist terror group, founded by the orange order and
> > > > > supported massively by protestants living in the NE corner of
> > ireland
> > > > > were in fact treasonous to the british crown and people.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm constantly amazed at the depth of ignorance within the old
> > orange
> > > > > community.
> > > > >
> > > > > patrick
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just so we're quite clear about what you're saying - against
> > > > > > which country were they committing treason? Were they traitors
> > > > > > to Ireland, or to the British Crown?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Paul
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I know that you subscribe to the old orange ideology and
> > that you
> > > > > > > prefer ignorance to enlightenment but I'll just throw
this out
> > > > in case
> > > > > > >  there is actually anybody else coming here.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > when your old orange ancestors set up a provisional
> > government and
> > > > > > > armed a protestant militia, they were in fact committing
> > treason.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > now, do you wish to remain ignorant or do you want to get an
> > > > education
> > > > > > > in the culture you so fervently defend, in spite of the
shame
> > > it has
> > > > > > > garnered?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > you see, your immoral notions of loyalty do not exempt you
> > > from the
> > > > > > > laws of the country into which you are born.  even snotty
> > > protestant
> > > > > > > landowners, industrialists, politicians and clergy are not
> > > above the
> > > > > > law.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > never were and never will again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. However, none
> > > > > > > > of what you wrote explains how it can possibly be
> > > > > > > > treason to want to remain part of the state you were
> > > > > > > > born in (the UK, in this case).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > > > > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> > > > > > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> > > > > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary
> > > > > > > > state before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I wouldn't waste my time trying to furnish you with
> > > > > > > > > enough material to overcome your innate ignorance of
> > > > > > > > > the history of NI.  you being an old orange, you will
> > > > > > > > > have been well brainwashed into avoiding the truth
> > > > > > > > > rather than taking an objective look at it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > the people of ireland should have been governing the
> > > > > > > > > whole country since shortly after 1918 when the people
> > > > > > > > > of ireland voted over 75% to determine their own
> destiny.
> > > > > > > > > if it had not been for the religious bigots in the NE
> > > > > > > > > corner, and a lot of treasonous help from others, it
> > > > > > > > > would have happened as promised.  if there had been
> > > > > > > > > no threat of violence from bigoted irish protestants
> > > > > > > > > the country could have enjoyed normal society.
> > > > > > > > > instead, the bigots filled your heads with fear and
> > > > > > > > > loathing that led ultimately to spontaneous sectarian
> > > > > > > > > murder on the street of belfast in 1966 that signaled
> > > > > > > > > the final demise of the old orange regime.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > admit it, your old orange culture simply hated people
> > > > > > > > > of another Christian faith.  if you admit that, you
> > > > > > > > > might feel better about yourself.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I see there seems to be only you and me here.
> > > > > > > > > I suppose if I stopped posting you'd be happier.
> > > > > > > > > that way Alan and his old orange buddies
> > > > > > > > > could come here too.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > None of that explains how it can possibly be
treason to
> > > > > > > > > > want to remain part of the state you were born in
> (the UK,
> > > > > > > > > > in this case).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of
stone
> > > > > > > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of
> Ireland
> > > > > > > > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or
> why the
> > > > > > > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary
> > state
> > > > > > > > > > before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > it's such a blur of activity here I almost
missed your
> > > post.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > the inhabitants of ireland were and still are irish.
> >  that
> > > > > part
> > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > was partitioned off to remain under the control of
> > england
> > > > > > > > became NI.
> > > > > > > > > > >  the people there are british subjects.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > the people who caused NI to be created used
> treason and
> > > > > > > blackmail to
> > > > > > > > > > > achieve their goal.  they were irish protestants who
> > were
> > > > > > consumed
> > > > > > > > > > > with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by their
> > > > > religious and
> > > > > > > > > > > political leaders. it's historic fact.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ireland as a nation held an election in 1918 the
> > result of
> > > > > > > which was
> > > > > > > > > > > an overwhelming majority of the irish people in
favour
> > > > of home
> > > > > > > rule
> > > > > > > > > > > for the island.  this had previously been agreed
upon
> > > > > > between the
> > > > > > > > > > > dublin and london governments and would have been
> > > instituted
> > > > > > > excpet
> > > > > > > > > > > for the intervention of WW1.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > in any election there will be those who voted
for the
> > > > > > majority and
> > > > > > > > > > > those who voted for the minority.  most civilised
> > peoples
> > > > > > > understand
> > > > > > > > > > > this.  not however the protestant bigots in the NE
> > corner
> > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > island.  they, like you, seemed to think they
had the
> > > > right to
> > > > > > > deny
> > > > > > > > > > > the will of the majority in ireland while at the
> > same time
> > > > > > denying
> > > > > > > > > > > civil and religious liberty for the minority of
> > > > > non-protestants
> > > > > > > > in NI
> > > > > > > > > > > that were stranded there following the partition
> of the
> > > > > island.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > this of course is the primary trait of an old
> orange for
> > > > they
> > > > > > > > ruled in
> > > > > > > > > > > this fashion until 1972 when the english realised
> > they had
> > > > > > > > handed over
> > > > > > > > > > > a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil bigots,
most of
> > > whom
> > > > > > > > supported
> > > > > > > > > > > the ideals of the orange order and the biggest bigot
> > > of all,
> > > > > > > > paisley.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > starting in 1972 the english commenced a program
that
> > > would
> > > > > > > deny the
> > > > > > > > > > > old oranges any further opportunities to
discriminate
> > > > > against UK
> > > > > > > > > > > citizens.  this relieved the tremendous
> > embarrassment the
> > > > > whole
> > > > > > > > affair
> > > > > > > > > > > had become for the once proud and might english.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > your old orange credentials have been trotted out
> enough
> > > > times
> > > > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > > > and has probably caused whatever members there
were to
> > > > > vacate.
> > > > > > > > today,
> > > > > > > > > > > most enlightened people would not subscribe to your
> > screwy
> > > > > > > > ideas.  the
> > > > > > > > > > > old orange culture of NI is not worth defending.  it
> > > had no
> > > > > > moral
> > > > > > > > > > > fibre to hold any argument presented by any old
> orange -
> > > > in or
> > > > > > > > out of
> > > > > > > > > > > ireland.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > thankfully, today in NI non-protestants have
civil and
> > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > rights equal to any UK citizen.  that wasn't the
case
> > > under
> > > > > > > the old
> > > > > > > > > > > oranges.  that's what gets old oranges like you so
> > > > depressed.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ignoring your abuse, for the moment, I'll just
> > > > > > > > > > > > point out that...
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The inhabitants of what became Northern Ireland
> > > > > > > > > > > > were British subjects, so trying to remain
British
> > > > > > > > > > > > could hardly be treason.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > There was no referendum in Ireland in 1918 on
> national
> > > > > > > > > > > > "self-determination". There was just an
election to
> > > > > > > > > > > > parliament. It became abundantly clear that views
> > > > > > > > > > > > on where their future lay were very different in
> > > > > > > > > > > > the North East from those in the South and West.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > There is no law of the universe that one land
mass
> > > > > > > > > > > > must be a single state. There are land borders in
> > > > > > > > > > > > North America and the main land mass of
> Scandinavia,
> > > > > > > > > > > > to name just two examples. Britain itself has been
> > > > > > > > > > > > separate states, and today is a Union of
kingdoms.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Even Ireland was not a single kingdom in any real
> > > > > > > > > > > > sense before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Your other claims have been pre-refuted in this
> > > > > > > > > > > > group many times already, so I'll not weary the
> > > > > > > > > > > > members with a repetition. Feel free to
> > > > > > > > > > > > read the archives for enlightenment!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, I'll paraphrase you: Your tired green
> > > > > > > > > > > > argument only works if you subscribe to green
> > > > > > > > > > > > principles with respect to democracy and how it
> > > > > > > > > > > > should operate :-)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not pretending anything.  you're an old
> > orange as
> > > > > > > > > > demonstrated by
> > > > > > > > > > > > > your sympathies and your ignorance.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > my views on the old orange culture you so
> fervently
> > > > > > > support are
> > > > > > > > > > widely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > held.  it was an abomination of evil and terror.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > NI was founded to appease protestant irish
> religious
> > > > > > > bigots who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > happened to form a majority in the 6 counties of
> > > ireland
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > lovingly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > renamed 'ulster'.  they used treason,
> blackmail and
> > > > > > > violence to
> > > > > > > > > > force
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the partition of the country.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > in 1918 the whole population of the undivided
> > country
> > > > > > voted by
> > > > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 70% to seek national self determination.
> something
> > > > > > > hundreds of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > thousands of irish men and women fought in
WW1 to
> > > > > > achieve for
> > > > > > > > > > similar
> > > > > > > > > > > > > smaller countries elsewhere.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > your tired old orange argument only works if you
> > > > subscribe
> > > > > > > > to old
> > > > > > > > > > > > > orange principles with respect to democracy and
> > how it
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > operate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >   only an old orange like yourself could
> > advocate for
> > > > > > the will
> > > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > minority so long as that minority is protestant.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the old orange culture you hold so dearly had no
> > > respect
> > > > > > > for the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > catholic minority in NI.  they suppressed
them for
> > > their
> > > > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > > > beliefs and denied them equal civil rights to
> > > > protestants.
> > > > > > >  this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > carried on until 1972 when the situation
became so
> > > > > > > > > embarrassing for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the english they had to dismantle the whole lot.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > now the whole country of ireland is being
> > governed by
> > > > > equals
> > > > > > > > > in fair
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and democratic elections.  many, many innocent
> > people
> > > > > > > would have
> > > > > > > > > > lived
> > > > > > > > > > > > > longer lives if the bigoted irish
protestants who
> > > > > forced the
> > > > > > > > > > creation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > of NI had accepted the will of democracy and
> > developed
> > > > > > > civilised
> > > > > > > > > > > > > society in normal partnership with their fellow
> > > > > citizens who
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > > > happened to be believers in another Christian
> faith.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > fortunately, the days when 'ulster' protestants
> > > get what
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > want are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > over.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you should do some more reading of NI history
> > and the
> > > > > > > bigots who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > caused way more trouble than they were
worth.  you
> > > might
> > > > > > give
> > > > > > > > > up on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > fighting a losing battle.  the old orange days
> in NI
> > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > discredited
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a long time ago.  you're in a severe
minority with
> > > your
> > > > > > > > > support for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > religious discrimination of whatever
proportion.
> > > only a
> > > > > > > > true old
> > > > > > > > > > > > > orange could hold onto an immoral set of
values by
> > > > > > > claiming that
> > > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > > > could be worse.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ps still only you and me here.  how's it going
> > over at
> > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > > other site
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - the one you banned me from?  is it the
same old
> > > > > repetitive
> > > > > > > > > > postings
> > > > > > > > > > > > > from Alan.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you're still pretending that
disagreeing with
> > > > > your just
> > > > > > > > > > slightly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > extreme views makes me an "old orange". Since
> > nobody
> > > > > > but you
> > > > > > > > > knows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > what that means, I'll try not to get too
> upset :)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's try to find some points (rather than
mere
> > > abuse)
> > > > > > > in your
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > message, and examine them again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland was not founded "to
divide and
> > > > > partition
> > > > > > > > > > ireland".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland was partitioned, and the Irish Free
> > > State and
> > > > > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > > > Ireland
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > were formed BECAUSE Ireland was ALREADY
> DIVIDED on
> > > > > how it
> > > > > > > > wanted
> > > > > > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ruled.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You might well have preferred that the
> million or
> > > > so UK
> > > > > > > > > > citizens who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > formed the greater number in the north
east were
> > > > > > > > unceremoniously
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ejected, and forced into a confessional state.
> > Some
> > > > > > > Unionists
> > > > > > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > have preferred the several million in the
south
> > > > and east
> > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > forced
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to stay in the Union with Britain. But it
is not
> > > > > > possible to
> > > > > > > > > give
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > everyone what they want.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The settlement was that both communities
> would be
> > > > > > allowed to
> > > > > > > > > > express
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > their identity, and live in the state to which
> > > > they gave
> > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > alliegance. Because the Irish people as a
whole
> > > > did not
> > > > > > > have a
> > > > > > > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > view on how they should be governed, a
line was
> > > drawn.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pleased to see you're not justifying PIRA
> > > > > > atrocities as
> > > > > > > > > > > such, even
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > while you try to absolve them of any actual
> > > > > > responsibility.
> > > > > > > > > Do you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > believe in some sort of marxist historical
> > > > necessity? An
> > > > > > > > > > inevitable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > revolution brought about by the contradictions
> > > > inherent
> > > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > > > > > system?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's bunk. If people kill, maim, and bomb
- THEY
> > > > > must take
> > > > > > > > > > > > > responsibility.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your attempt to shift the blame is
offensive and
> > > > > > > wrong-headed:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "your lot started the murderous
campaigns and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with treason and violence forced a
> situation..."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You seem to have difficulty reading that I
> > condemned
> > > > > > > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > where it occurred in the North - so I'll
say it
> > > > again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I. condemn. discrimination. where. it.
> > occurred. in.
> > > > > the.
> > > > > > > > north.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To avoid hypocrisy, I'll also condemn it
in the
> > > South.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are free to disbelieve me when I point out
> > that
> > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > was less
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > discrimination in the north than you claim
> (and no
> > > > "holy
> > > > > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > war"). Similarly, you can ignore any hint that
> > > > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > > happened
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the south as well. If it makes it easier,
> > you can
> > > > > > pretend
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > events in the south were "irrelevant" to the
> > > views and
> > > > > > > > > actions of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > people in the north. You would still be wrong,
> > > though.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, you dismiss the Southern reluctance
> > to act
> > > > > > > > against the
> > > > > > > > > > > IRA as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "a grand display of old orange ignorance".
> Are you
> > > > > denying
> > > > > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > southern administration or its members ran
> guns to
> > > > > the IRA
> > > > > > > > > > > (Haughey),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > or allowed training camps to operate with
> > > impunity in
> > > > > > > > > Donegal and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > other border counties, or dragged their
feet on
> > > > > > extradition,
> > > > > > > > > > > sometimes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > refusing outright to make terrorists
answer for
> > > their
> > > > > > crimes
> > > > > > > > > in a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > court of law, or refused to allow hot pursuit
> > > over the
> > > > > > > > > border - to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > such an extent that terrorists could sit
safely
> > > in the
> > > > > > > > > > Republic, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > remotely detonate bombs against targets in
> > Northern
> > > > > > Ireland?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was not until the atrocities of 9/11
that the
> > > > > > > hypocritical
> > > > > > > > > > double
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > standard of the Irish (and US) government with
> > > > regard to
> > > > > > > > > > > terrorism in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland was seriously threatened.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And just because I don't have time to
refute all
> > > your
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > throw away
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > accusations and misleading or selective
> > > > > > characterisations of
> > > > > > > > > > events,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > don't assume that I agree with the rest of
> > what you
> > > > > wrote.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "when it was founded after the south got its
> > > > autonomy"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it was founded to divide and partition
> ireland.
> > > > > to say
> > > > > > > > it had
> > > > > > > > > > > > faults
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is a huge understatement.  NI
governments are
> > > > > > > characterised
> > > > > > > > > > by the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bigotry that directed policy.  in my book
> it was
> > > > > an evil
> > > > > > > > > period
> > > > > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the years the old orange bigots
controlled NI.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you're the one hooked on justifying old
orange
> > > > > actions.
> > > > > > > > > I'm not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > justifying (P)IRA terrorism.  you're just
> > > > raising the
> > > > > > > > spectre
> > > > > > > > > > > of an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > old orange again.  you're true to form all
> > right.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > your lot started the murderous campaigns and
> > with
> > > > > > > > treason and
> > > > > > > > > > > > violence
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > forced a situation to develop that
encouraged
> > > > > > spontaneous
> > > > > > > > > > > murder of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > innocent catholics.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from the 1920s to 1972, until it was
> > > dismantled, NI
> > > > > > > > > protestants
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > supported by popular vote the continued
> > religious
> > > > > > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enacted on their behalf against fellow UK
> > > citizens.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the actions of the (P)IRA during the war
were
> > > > > > harnessed by
> > > > > > > > > > the old
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > oranges to their harsh treatment of fellow
> > > citizens.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > looks to me like you only see republicans as
> > > > evil.  I
> > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > > > disagree
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with you on that.  the problem though is
every
> > > > time I
> > > > > > > expose
> > > > > > > > > > > some of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the evil that was unionist politics or
> terrorism
> > > > > you go
> > > > > > > > > > ape-shit.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "or the Southern reluctance to act
against the
> > > IRA."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a grand display of old orange ignorance.
  you
> > > > > really do
> > > > > > > > > need to
> > > > > > > > > > > > read a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bit more.  the forum looks a bit neglected.
> >  there
> > > > > only
> > > > > > > > seems
> > > > > > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the two of us.  I hope things improve before
> > > you ban
> > > > > > > me from
> > > > > > > > > > > > here too.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In
peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course there were faults with the
> Northern
> > > > Irish
> > > > > > > > > government
> > > > > > > > > > > > > between
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 1920s, when it was founded after the
> south
> > > > > got its
> > > > > > > > > > > > autonomy, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1972, when it was taken over by
> Westminster -
> > > > > > > > > particularly if
> > > > > > > > > > > > we are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > judging by the standards of today.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it is a travesty to pretend that such
> > > > faults as
> > > > > > > > > there were
> > > > > > > > > > > > > in any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > way justified, much less forced, the IRA's
> > > > murderous
> > > > > > > > > > campaign to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > undermine the wishes of the greater
> number of
> > > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > > Ireland's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > citizens to live at peace in the Union.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be an equal travesty to
> maintain that
> > > > > > southern
> > > > > > > > > > > > > collusion with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the IRA, or such institutional
> sectarianism as
> > > > > existed
> > > > > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > southern
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > state, justified the loyalist bombings
> > > there. That
> > > > > > > > could not
> > > > > > > > > > > > even be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > justified by IRA atrocities in the North,
> > or the
> > > > > > > Southern
> > > > > > > > > > > > reluctance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to act against the IRA.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you somehow conceive that these views
> make
> > > > me an
> > > > > > > > > > > apologist for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bigotry, that is your right and privilege.
> > It's
> > > > > still
> > > > > > > > > > > tendentious
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nonsense though, and you really shouldn't
> > assume
> > > > > > that I
> > > > > > > > > agree.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your monomaniacal insistence that all the
> > evils
> > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > past
> > > > > > > > > > > > century
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can be laid at the door of the
community of
> > > > > which you
> > > > > > > > > are not
> > > > > > > > > > > > a part
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seems like a self-serving rationalisation,
> > > wilful
> > > > > > > > > > blindness, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > smacks not a little of the type of
> bigotry you
> > > > > see in
> > > > > > > > > everyone
> > > > > > > > > > > > else.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you have any ideas on peacemaking
beyond
> > > > > > getting all
> > > > > > > > > > > > > protestants to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wear sackcloth and ashes for ever?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you picked the title, not me.  you
> > define it,
> > > > > > not me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as for useful discussion, I'm at a loss.
> >  you
> > > > > hardly
> > > > > > > > > > ever come
> > > > > > > > > > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and when you do it's mostly to
> chastise me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the old orange regime was terrible.
> it was
> > > > > morally
> > > > > > > > > > > bankrupt and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > evil
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but was kept alive too long.  it
> > > eventually got
> > > > > > NI its
> > > > > > > > > > recent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > war.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that's what happens when morally
bankrupt
> > > > regimes
> > > > > > > exist.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not impressed with your observation
> > > > since you
> > > > > > > exist
> > > > > > > > > > within
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > an old
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > orange bubble that hasn't burst yet.
> > this is
> > > > > > what is
> > > > > > > > > > still a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in NI.  too many brain-washed and
> > ignorant old
> > > > > > > oranges.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  --- In
> > > peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Patrick asks "why not". If someone
> > sincerely
> > > > > > > > > believes that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Peace in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland" is the same as "why
> > > one side
> > > > > > > is are
> > > > > > > > > > not to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > blame at
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all, and the other lot caused it all",
> > > then it
> > > > > > > is hard
> > > > > > > > > > > to see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > he or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > she could join in any useful
> discussion of
> > > > > peace,
> > > > > > > > beyond
> > > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kind of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > futile "'aren't "they" terrible',
mutual
> > > > > > > back-slapping
> > > > > > > > > > > circle.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for using the phrase "the accepted
> > > > opinion of
> > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people" to bolster his personal
> > > interpretation
> > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > conflict, I'll
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > point out that the consensus among
> > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > observers is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "war" in Northern Ireland was
political,
> > > > > > rather than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > religious. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > situation was clearly inflamed by
ethnic
> > > > > > > tensions, but
> > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > was no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > religious war as such. As opposed
to the
> > > 16th
> > > > > > > century,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > nobody was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > killed over their views on, say,
> > > > > > > > transubstantiation. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > minority who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tried periodically throughout the 20th
> > > > > century to
> > > > > > > > > > > overturn the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > settlement reached in the 1920s were
> > > fighting
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > politics and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > land.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those who opposed them were defending
> > their
> > > > > > > > > > government, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > resisting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > encroachment by what at the time was a
> > > > > > > > backward-looking,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > impoverished,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and censorious state.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Things have moved on, fortunately.
> > > Citizens on
> > > > > > both
> > > > > > > > > sides
> > > > > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > border are better off. And practically
> > > > nobody is
> > > > > > > > > trying to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > impose
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their will by murder and bombing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, if we can mop up the remaining
> > thugs as
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > try to
> > > > > > > > > > > hold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > on to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their power by organising crime
empires,
> > > > and if
> > > > > > > we can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > improve the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > democracy of the structures of
> > > government, and
> > > > > > avoid
> > > > > > > > > > > > losing our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hard-won freedoms to inflated hysteria
> > over
> > > > > > > "Islamic"
> > > > > > > > > > > > terrorism
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (or US
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "imperialism"), if we can address
> > > factors that
> > > > > > > > > threaten us
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > all, like
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > institutional global inequalities and
> > global
> > > > > > > warming,
> > > > > > > > > > > > things may
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > continue to improve.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why not Paul?  if you spent some
> > time here
> > > > > > we just
> > > > > > > > > > > might get
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > debate but you seem reluctant to
> > > > challenge the
> > > > > > > > > accepted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > opinion of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > many reasonable people that if
the old
> > > > > > oranges of
> > > > > > > > > NI (of
> > > > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are still toooooo many) had dropped
> > their
> > > > > > > > > religious war
> > > > > > > > > > > > on RCs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would have been no war recently.  if
> > > > ignorant
> > > > > > > bigots
> > > > > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > paisley
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hadn't aroused ancient hatreds
> among his
> > > > > > sect they
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > have been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > more satisfied now than they are
> having
> > > > > lost the
> > > > > > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > battle.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In
> > > > peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm off on holidays. Feel free to
> > > discuss
> > > > > > > > "peace in
> > > > > > > > > > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > while I'm out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note to Patrick - that is not
> > > NECESSARILY
> > > > > > > the same
> > > > > > > > > > > as "why
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the fault of the other side".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

"However, as you also know, most people in the North East
of the Island wanted no truck with a Dublin-based government,
whether inside or outside the Union."

so most people in the NE of Ireland wanted no truck with the
Dublin-based government since 1801?  whinning bunch really.

no, I think protestant bigots in the NE corner wanted nothing to do
with catholics.  simple religious fanaticism was behind the war in NI.
  religious zealots encouraging treason.

partition was never considered a viable option for appeasing their
bigotry.  it was a nod to irish protestant intransigence.

pps

--- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I'm sure you know perfectly well what I mean, Patrick.
> The country was indeed politically one at that time, as it
> had been since the 1801 act of Union.
>
> Irish separatists wanted to leave the union, and they had
> a degree of support in the South and East of the island.
> This support grew significantly after the dreadful mishandling
> of the Easter Rising.
>
> However, as you also know, most people in the North East
> of the Island wanted no truck with a Dublin-based government,
> whether inside or outside the Union.
>
> It is a rather futile debating point to what degree any of
> the parties were "traitors" to (a) the United Kingdom,
> (b) a mythic free and independent, albeit politically
> non-existent, Ireland, or (c) the United Kingdom government,
> when it proposed the breakup of the Union. Apart from
> name-calling, and an entirely spurious sense of
> moral superiority, there is little to be gained.
>
> It is clear that Ireland contained two groups with
> mutually incompatible goals - Independence from Britain,
> versus continuation of the Union. Partition, or ruthless
> suppression, were the only alternatives.
>
> I'm thankful that the zealots who wanted to fight on until
> they had achieved all their goals - or killed everyone - did
> not carry the day.
>
> If you want to see the results of that approach, look at
> Sri Lanka, where an extremist nationalist government and
> extremist separatists are conspiring to drag the country
> back into the civil war it only escaped a decade or so ago.
>
> regards
>
> Paul
>
>
> --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > the country was 'one' before your unionist
> > terrorists git going.  you should also know
> > those terrorists were not being forced out.  they had
> > every right to remain in ireland had they not been
> > so desparate for the teats of king and country.
> >
> > they were treasonous an cowardly old orange bigots, that's all.
> >
> > you are still in need of an education.
> >
> > regards, patrick
> >
> > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I rather suspect they would have claimed loyalty to King and
Country,
> > > rather than to any particular administration - least of all one that
> > > was trying to break up the country and force them out.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Paul,
> > > >
> > > > you seem to have gone 'dark'.  any reason?
> > > >
> > > > I was waiting to see how you would respond to my last post before
> > > > enlightening you.
> > > >
> > > > the first unionist terror group, founded by the orange order and
> > > > supported massively by protestants living in the NE corner of
> ireland
> > > > were in fact treasonous to the british crown and people.
> > > >
> > > > I'm constantly amazed at the depth of ignorance within the old
> orange
> > > > community.
> > > >
> > > > patrick
> > > >
> > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Just so we're quite clear about what you're saying - against
> > > > > which country were they committing treason? Were they traitors
> > > > > to Ireland, or to the British Crown?
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I know that you subscribe to the old orange ideology and
> that you
> > > > > > prefer ignorance to enlightenment but I'll just throw this out
> > > in case
> > > > > >  there is actually anybody else coming here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > when your old orange ancestors set up a provisional
> government and
> > > > > > armed a protestant militia, they were in fact committing
> treason.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > now, do you wish to remain ignorant or do you want to get an
> > > education
> > > > > > in the culture you so fervently defend, in spite of the shame
> > it has
> > > > > > garnered?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > you see, your immoral notions of loyalty do not exempt you
> > from the
> > > > > > laws of the country into which you are born.  even snotty
> > protestant
> > > > > > landowners, industrialists, politicians and clergy are not
> > above the
> > > > > law.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > never were and never will again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > pps
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. However, none
> > > > > > > of what you wrote explains how it can possibly be
> > > > > > > treason to want to remain part of the state you were
> > > > > > > born in (the UK, in this case).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > > > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> > > > > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> > > > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary
> > > > > > > state before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I wouldn't waste my time trying to furnish you with
> > > > > > > > enough material to overcome your innate ignorance of
> > > > > > > > the history of NI.  you being an old orange, you will
> > > > > > > > have been well brainwashed into avoiding the truth
> > > > > > > > rather than taking an objective look at it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > the people of ireland should have been governing the
> > > > > > > > whole country since shortly after 1918 when the people
> > > > > > > > of ireland voted over 75% to determine their own
destiny.
> > > > > > > > if it had not been for the religious bigots in the NE
> > > > > > > > corner, and a lot of treasonous help from others, it
> > > > > > > > would have happened as promised.  if there had been
> > > > > > > > no threat of violence from bigoted irish protestants
> > > > > > > > the country could have enjoyed normal society.
> > > > > > > > instead, the bigots filled your heads with fear and
> > > > > > > > loathing that led ultimately to spontaneous sectarian
> > > > > > > > murder on the street of belfast in 1966 that signaled
> > > > > > > > the final demise of the old orange regime.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > admit it, your old orange culture simply hated people
> > > > > > > > of another Christian faith.  if you admit that, you
> > > > > > > > might feel better about yourself.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I see there seems to be only you and me here.
> > > > > > > > I suppose if I stopped posting you'd be happier.
> > > > > > > > that way Alan and his old orange buddies
> > > > > > > > could come here too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > None of that explains how it can possibly be treason to
> > > > > > > > > want to remain part of the state you were born in
(the UK,
> > > > > > > > > in this case).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > > > > > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of
Ireland
> > > > > > > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or
why the
> > > > > > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary
> state
> > > > > > > > > before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > it's such a blur of activity here I almost missed your
> > post.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > the inhabitants of ireland were and still are irish.
>  that
> > > > part
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > was partitioned off to remain under the control of
> england
> > > > > > > became NI.
> > > > > > > > > >  the people there are british subjects.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > the people who caused NI to be created used
treason and
> > > > > > blackmail to
> > > > > > > > > > achieve their goal.  they were irish protestants who
> were
> > > > > consumed
> > > > > > > > > > with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by their
> > > > religious and
> > > > > > > > > > political leaders. it's historic fact.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ireland as a nation held an election in 1918 the
> result of
> > > > > > which was
> > > > > > > > > > an overwhelming majority of the irish people in favour
> > > of home
> > > > > > rule
> > > > > > > > > > for the island.  this had previously been agreed upon
> > > > > between the
> > > > > > > > > > dublin and london governments and would have been
> > instituted
> > > > > > excpet
> > > > > > > > > > for the intervention of WW1.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > in any election there will be those who voted for the
> > > > > majority and
> > > > > > > > > > those who voted for the minority.  most civilised
> peoples
> > > > > > understand
> > > > > > > > > > this.  not however the protestant bigots in the NE
> corner
> > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > island.  they, like you, seemed to think they had the
> > > right to
> > > > > > deny
> > > > > > > > > > the will of the majority in ireland while at the
> same time
> > > > > denying
> > > > > > > > > > civil and religious liberty for the minority of
> > > > non-protestants
> > > > > > > in NI
> > > > > > > > > > that were stranded there following the partition
of the
> > > > island.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > this of course is the primary trait of an old
orange for
> > > they
> > > > > > > ruled in
> > > > > > > > > > this fashion until 1972 when the english realised
> they had
> > > > > > > handed over
> > > > > > > > > > a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil bigots, most of
> > whom
> > > > > > > supported
> > > > > > > > > > the ideals of the orange order and the biggest bigot
> > of all,
> > > > > > > paisley.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > starting in 1972 the english commenced a program that
> > would
> > > > > > deny the
> > > > > > > > > > old oranges any further opportunities to discriminate
> > > > against UK
> > > > > > > > > > citizens.  this relieved the tremendous
> embarrassment the
> > > > whole
> > > > > > > affair
> > > > > > > > > > had become for the once proud and might english.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > your old orange credentials have been trotted out
enough
> > > times
> > > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > > and has probably caused whatever members there were to
> > > > vacate.
> > > > > > > today,
> > > > > > > > > > most enlightened people would not subscribe to your
> screwy
> > > > > > > ideas.  the
> > > > > > > > > > old orange culture of NI is not worth defending.  it
> > had no
> > > > > moral
> > > > > > > > > > fibre to hold any argument presented by any old
orange -
> > > in or
> > > > > > > out of
> > > > > > > > > > ireland.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > thankfully, today in NI non-protestants have civil and
> > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > rights equal to any UK citizen.  that wasn't the case
> > under
> > > > > > the old
> > > > > > > > > > oranges.  that's what gets old oranges like you so
> > > depressed.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Ignoring your abuse, for the moment, I'll just
> > > > > > > > > > > point out that...
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The inhabitants of what became Northern Ireland
> > > > > > > > > > > were British subjects, so trying to remain British
> > > > > > > > > > > could hardly be treason.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > There was no referendum in Ireland in 1918 on
national
> > > > > > > > > > > "self-determination". There was just an election to
> > > > > > > > > > > parliament. It became abundantly clear that views
> > > > > > > > > > > on where their future lay were very different in
> > > > > > > > > > > the North East from those in the South and West.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > There is no law of the universe that one land mass
> > > > > > > > > > > must be a single state. There are land borders in
> > > > > > > > > > > North America and the main land mass of
Scandinavia,
> > > > > > > > > > > to name just two examples. Britain itself has been
> > > > > > > > > > > separate states, and today is a Union of kingdoms.
> > > > > > > > > > > Even Ireland was not a single kingdom in any real
> > > > > > > > > > > sense before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Your other claims have been pre-refuted in this
> > > > > > > > > > > group many times already, so I'll not weary the
> > > > > > > > > > > members with a repetition. Feel free to
> > > > > > > > > > > read the archives for enlightenment!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Finally, I'll paraphrase you: Your tired green
> > > > > > > > > > > argument only works if you subscribe to green
> > > > > > > > > > > principles with respect to democracy and how it
> > > > > > > > > > > should operate :-)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not pretending anything.  you're an old
> orange as
> > > > > > > > > demonstrated by
> > > > > > > > > > > > your sympathies and your ignorance.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > my views on the old orange culture you so
fervently
> > > > > > support are
> > > > > > > > > widely
> > > > > > > > > > > > held.  it was an abomination of evil and terror.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > NI was founded to appease protestant irish
religious
> > > > > > bigots who
> > > > > > > > > > > > happened to form a majority in the 6 counties of
> > ireland
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > lovingly
> > > > > > > > > > > > renamed 'ulster'.  they used treason,
blackmail and
> > > > > > violence to
> > > > > > > > > force
> > > > > > > > > > > > the partition of the country.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > in 1918 the whole population of the undivided
> country
> > > > > voted by
> > > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > > > > 70% to seek national self determination.
something
> > > > > > hundreds of
> > > > > > > > > > > > thousands of irish men and women fought in WW1 to
> > > > > achieve for
> > > > > > > > > similar
> > > > > > > > > > > > smaller countries elsewhere.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > your tired old orange argument only works if you
> > > subscribe
> > > > > > > to old
> > > > > > > > > > > > orange principles with respect to democracy and
> how it
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > operate.
> > > > > > > > > > > >   only an old orange like yourself could
> advocate for
> > > > > the will
> > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > minority so long as that minority is protestant.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > the old orange culture you hold so dearly had no
> > respect
> > > > > > for the
> > > > > > > > > > > > catholic minority in NI.  they suppressed them for
> > their
> > > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > > beliefs and denied them equal civil rights to
> > > protestants.
> > > > > >  this
> > > > > > > > > > > > carried on until 1972 when the situation became so
> > > > > > > > embarrassing for
> > > > > > > > > > > > the english they had to dismantle the whole lot.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > now the whole country of ireland is being
> governed by
> > > > equals
> > > > > > > > in fair
> > > > > > > > > > > > and democratic elections.  many, many innocent
> people
> > > > > > would have
> > > > > > > > > lived
> > > > > > > > > > > > longer lives if the bigoted irish protestants who
> > > > forced the
> > > > > > > > > creation
> > > > > > > > > > > > of NI had accepted the will of democracy and
> developed
> > > > > > civilised
> > > > > > > > > > > > society in normal partnership with their fellow
> > > > citizens who
> > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > > happened to be believers in another Christian
faith.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > fortunately, the days when 'ulster' protestants
> > get what
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > want are
> > > > > > > > > > > > over.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > you should do some more reading of NI history
> and the
> > > > > > bigots who
> > > > > > > > > > > > caused way more trouble than they were worth.  you
> > might
> > > > > give
> > > > > > > > up on
> > > > > > > > > > > > fighting a losing battle.  the old orange days
in NI
> > > were
> > > > > > > > > discredited
> > > > > > > > > > > > a long time ago.  you're in a severe minority with
> > your
> > > > > > > > support for
> > > > > > > > > > > > religious discrimination of whatever proportion.
> > only a
> > > > > > > true old
> > > > > > > > > > > > orange could hold onto an immoral set of values by
> > > > > > claiming that
> > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > > could be worse.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ps still only you and me here.  how's it going
> over at
> > > > your
> > > > > > > > > other site
> > > > > > > > > > > > - the one you banned me from?  is it the same old
> > > > repetitive
> > > > > > > > > postings
> > > > > > > > > > > > from Alan.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > So you're still pretending that disagreeing with
> > > > your just
> > > > > > > > > slightly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > extreme views makes me an "old orange". Since
> nobody
> > > > > but you
> > > > > > > > knows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > what that means, I'll try not to get too
upset :)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's try to find some points (rather than mere
> > abuse)
> > > > > > in your
> > > > > > > > > > > > > message, and examine them again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland was not founded "to divide and
> > > > partition
> > > > > > > > > ireland".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland was partitioned, and the Irish Free
> > State and
> > > > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > > Ireland
> > > > > > > > > > > > > were formed BECAUSE Ireland was ALREADY
DIVIDED on
> > > > how it
> > > > > > > wanted
> > > > > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ruled.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You might well have preferred that the
million or
> > > so UK
> > > > > > > > > citizens who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > formed the greater number in the north east were
> > > > > > > unceremoniously
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ejected, and forced into a confessional state.
> Some
> > > > > > Unionists
> > > > > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > > > > > have preferred the several million in the south
> > > and east
> > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > forced
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to stay in the Union with Britain. But it is not
> > > > > possible to
> > > > > > > > give
> > > > > > > > > > > > > everyone what they want.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The settlement was that both communities
would be
> > > > > allowed to
> > > > > > > > > express
> > > > > > > > > > > > > their identity, and live in the state to which
> > > they gave
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > > > alliegance. Because the Irish people as a whole
> > > did not
> > > > > > have a
> > > > > > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > > > > > > view on how they should be governed, a line was
> > drawn.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pleased to see you're not justifying PIRA
> > > > > atrocities as
> > > > > > > > > > such, even
> > > > > > > > > > > > > while you try to absolve them of any actual
> > > > > responsibility.
> > > > > > > > Do you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > believe in some sort of marxist historical
> > > necessity? An
> > > > > > > > > inevitable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > revolution brought about by the contradictions
> > > inherent
> > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > > > > system?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It's bunk. If people kill, maim, and bomb - THEY
> > > > must take
> > > > > > > > > > > > responsibility.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Your attempt to shift the blame is offensive and
> > > > > > wrong-headed:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "your lot started the murderous campaigns and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > with treason and violence forced a
situation..."
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You seem to have difficulty reading that I
> condemned
> > > > > > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > > > > where it occurred in the North - so I'll say it
> > > again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I. condemn. discrimination. where. it.
> occurred. in.
> > > > the.
> > > > > > > north.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To avoid hypocrisy, I'll also condemn it in the
> > South.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You are free to disbelieve me when I point out
> that
> > > > there
> > > > > > > > was less
> > > > > > > > > > > > > discrimination in the north than you claim
(and no
> > > "holy
> > > > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > > > war"). Similarly, you can ignore any hint that
> > > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > happened
> > > > > > > > > > > > > in the south as well. If it makes it easier,
> you can
> > > > > pretend
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > events in the south were "irrelevant" to the
> > views and
> > > > > > > > actions of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > people in the north. You would still be wrong,
> > though.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, you dismiss the Southern reluctance
> to act
> > > > > > > against the
> > > > > > > > > > IRA as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "a grand display of old orange ignorance".
Are you
> > > > denying
> > > > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > southern administration or its members ran
guns to
> > > > the IRA
> > > > > > > > > > (Haughey),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > or allowed training camps to operate with
> > impunity in
> > > > > > > > Donegal and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > other border counties, or dragged their feet on
> > > > > extradition,
> > > > > > > > > > sometimes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > refusing outright to make terrorists answer for
> > their
> > > > > crimes
> > > > > > > > in a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > court of law, or refused to allow hot pursuit
> > over the
> > > > > > > > border - to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > such an extent that terrorists could sit safely
> > in the
> > > > > > > > > Republic, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > remotely detonate bombs against targets in
> Northern
> > > > > Ireland?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It was not until the atrocities of 9/11 that the
> > > > > > hypocritical
> > > > > > > > > double
> > > > > > > > > > > > > standard of the Irish (and US) government with
> > > regard to
> > > > > > > > > > terrorism in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland was seriously threatened.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And just because I don't have time to refute all
> > your
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > throw away
> > > > > > > > > > > > > accusations and misleading or selective
> > > > > characterisations of
> > > > > > > > > events,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > don't assume that I agree with the rest of
> what you
> > > > wrote.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "when it was founded after the south got its
> > > autonomy"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it was founded to divide and partition
ireland.
> > > > to say
> > > > > > > it had
> > > > > > > > > > > faults
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is a huge understatement.  NI governments are
> > > > > > characterised
> > > > > > > > > by the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > bigotry that directed policy.  in my book
it was
> > > > an evil
> > > > > > > > period
> > > > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the years the old orange bigots controlled NI.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you're the one hooked on justifying old orange
> > > > actions.
> > > > > > > > I'm not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > justifying (P)IRA terrorism.  you're just
> > > raising the
> > > > > > > spectre
> > > > > > > > > > of an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > old orange again.  you're true to form all
> right.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > your lot started the murderous campaigns and
> with
> > > > > > > treason and
> > > > > > > > > > > violence
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > forced a situation to develop that encouraged
> > > > > spontaneous
> > > > > > > > > > murder of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > innocent catholics.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > from the 1920s to 1972, until it was
> > dismantled, NI
> > > > > > > > protestants
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > supported by popular vote the continued
> religious
> > > > > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > enacted on their behalf against fellow UK
> > citizens.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the actions of the (P)IRA during the war were
> > > > > harnessed by
> > > > > > > > > the old
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > oranges to their harsh treatment of fellow
> > citizens.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > looks to me like you only see republicans as
> > > evil.  I
> > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > > disagree
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > with you on that.  the problem though is every
> > > time I
> > > > > > expose
> > > > > > > > > > some of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the evil that was unionist politics or
terrorism
> > > > you go
> > > > > > > > > ape-shit.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "or the Southern reluctance to act against the
> > IRA."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > a grand display of old orange ignorance.  you
> > > > really do
> > > > > > > > need to
> > > > > > > > > > > read a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > bit more.  the forum looks a bit neglected.
>  there
> > > > only
> > > > > > > seems
> > > > > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the two of us.  I hope things improve before
> > you ban
> > > > > > me from
> > > > > > > > > > > here too.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course there were faults with the
Northern
> > > Irish
> > > > > > > > government
> > > > > > > > > > > > between
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 1920s, when it was founded after the
south
> > > > got its
> > > > > > > > > > > autonomy, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1972, when it was taken over by
Westminster -
> > > > > > > > particularly if
> > > > > > > > > > > we are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > judging by the standards of today.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it is a travesty to pretend that such
> > > faults as
> > > > > > > > there were
> > > > > > > > > > > > in any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > way justified, much less forced, the IRA's
> > > murderous
> > > > > > > > > campaign to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > undermine the wishes of the greater
number of
> > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > Ireland's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > citizens to live at peace in the Union.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be an equal travesty to
maintain that
> > > > > southern
> > > > > > > > > > > > collusion with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the IRA, or such institutional
sectarianism as
> > > > existed
> > > > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > > > > > > southern
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > state, justified the loyalist bombings
> > there. That
> > > > > > > could not
> > > > > > > > > > > even be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > justified by IRA atrocities in the North,
> or the
> > > > > > Southern
> > > > > > > > > > > reluctance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to act against the IRA.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you somehow conceive that these views
make
> > > me an
> > > > > > > > > > apologist for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bigotry, that is your right and privilege.
> It's
> > > > still
> > > > > > > > > > tendentious
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nonsense though, and you really shouldn't
> assume
> > > > > that I
> > > > > > > > agree.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your monomaniacal insistence that all the
> evils
> > > > of the
> > > > > > > past
> > > > > > > > > > > century
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can be laid at the door of the community of
> > > > which you
> > > > > > > > are not
> > > > > > > > > > > a part
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seems like a self-serving rationalisation,
> > wilful
> > > > > > > > > blindness, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > smacks not a little of the type of
bigotry you
> > > > see in
> > > > > > > > everyone
> > > > > > > > > > > else.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you have any ideas on peacemaking beyond
> > > > > getting all
> > > > > > > > > > > > protestants to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wear sackcloth and ashes for ever?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you picked the title, not me.  you
> define it,
> > > > > not me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as for useful discussion, I'm at a loss.
>  you
> > > > hardly
> > > > > > > > > ever come
> > > > > > > > > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and when you do it's mostly to
chastise me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the old orange regime was terrible.
it was
> > > > morally
> > > > > > > > > > bankrupt and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > evil
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but was kept alive too long.  it
> > eventually got
> > > > > NI its
> > > > > > > > > recent
> > > > > > > > > > > > war.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that's what happens when morally bankrupt
> > > regimes
> > > > > > exist.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not impressed with your observation
> > > since you
> > > > > > exist
> > > > > > > > > within
> > > > > > > > > > > > > an old
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > orange bubble that hasn't burst yet.
> this is
> > > > > what is
> > > > > > > > > still a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in NI.  too many brain-washed and
> ignorant old
> > > > > > oranges.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  --- In
> > peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Patrick asks "why not". If someone
> sincerely
> > > > > > > > believes that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Peace in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland" is the same as "why
> > one side
> > > > > > is are
> > > > > > > > > not to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > blame at
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all, and the other lot caused it all",
> > then it
> > > > > > is hard
> > > > > > > > > > to see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > he or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > she could join in any useful
discussion of
> > > > peace,
> > > > > > > beyond
> > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > kind of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > futile "'aren't "they" terrible', mutual
> > > > > > back-slapping
> > > > > > > > > > circle.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for using the phrase "the accepted
> > > opinion of
> > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people" to bolster his personal
> > interpretation
> > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > conflict, I'll
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > point out that the consensus among
> > reasonable
> > > > > > > > observers is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "war" in Northern Ireland was political,
> > > > > rather than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > religious. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > situation was clearly inflamed by ethnic
> > > > > > tensions, but
> > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > was no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > religious war as such. As opposed to the
> > 16th
> > > > > > century,
> > > > > > > > > > > > nobody was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > killed over their views on, say,
> > > > > > > transubstantiation. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > minority who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tried periodically throughout the 20th
> > > > century to
> > > > > > > > > > overturn the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > settlement reached in the 1920s were
> > fighting
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > politics and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > land.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those who opposed them were defending
> their
> > > > > > > > > government, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > resisting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > encroachment by what at the time was a
> > > > > > > backward-looking,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > impoverished,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and censorious state.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Things have moved on, fortunately.
> > Citizens on
> > > > > both
> > > > > > > > sides
> > > > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > border are better off. And practically
> > > nobody is
> > > > > > > > trying to
> > > > > > > > > > > > impose
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their will by murder and bombing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, if we can mop up the remaining
> thugs as
> > > > they
> > > > > > > try to
> > > > > > > > > > hold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > on to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their power by organising crime empires,
> > > and if
> > > > > > we can
> > > > > > > > > > > > improve the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > democracy of the structures of
> > government, and
> > > > > avoid
> > > > > > > > > > > losing our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hard-won freedoms to inflated hysteria
> over
> > > > > > "Islamic"
> > > > > > > > > > > terrorism
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > (or US
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "imperialism"), if we can address
> > factors that
> > > > > > > > threaten us
> > > > > > > > > > > > > all, like
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > institutional global inequalities and
> global
> > > > > > warming,
> > > > > > > > > > > things may
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > continue to improve.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why not Paul?  if you spent some
> time here
> > > > > we just
> > > > > > > > > > might get
> > > > > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > debate but you seem reluctant to
> > > challenge the
> > > > > > > > accepted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > opinion of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > many reasonable people that if the old
> > > > > oranges of
> > > > > > > > NI (of
> > > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are still toooooo many) had dropped
> their
> > > > > > > > religious war
> > > > > > > > > > > on RCs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would have been no war recently.  if
> > > ignorant
> > > > > > bigots
> > > > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > > > > > paisley
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hadn't aroused ancient hatreds
among his
> > > > > sect they
> > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > > have been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > more satisfied now than they are
having
> > > > lost the
> > > > > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > > > battle.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In
> > > peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm off on holidays. Feel free to
> > discuss
> > > > > > > "peace in
> > > > > > > > > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > while I'm out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note to Patrick - that is not
> > NECESSARILY
> > > > > > the same
> > > > > > > > > > as "why
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the fault of the other side".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

I'm sure you know perfectly well what I mean, Patrick.
The country was indeed politically one at that time, as it
had been since the 1801 act of Union.

Irish separatists wanted to leave the union, and they had
a degree of support in the South and East of the island.
This support grew significantly after the dreadful mishandling
of the Easter Rising.

However, as you also know, most people in the North East
of the Island wanted no truck with a Dublin-based government,
whether inside or outside the Union.

It is a rather futile debating point to what degree any of
the parties were "traitors" to (a) the United Kingdom,
(b) a mythic free and independent, albeit politically
non-existent, Ireland, or (c) the United Kingdom government,
when it proposed the breakup of the Union. Apart from
name-calling, and an entirely spurious sense of
moral superiority, there is little to be gained.

It is clear that Ireland contained two groups with
mutually incompatible goals - Independence from Britain,
versus continuation of the Union. Partition, or ruthless
suppression, were the only alternatives.

I'm thankful that the zealots who wanted to fight on until
they had achieved all their goals - or killed everyone - did
not carry the day.

If you want to see the results of that approach, look at
Sri Lanka, where an extremist nationalist government and
extremist separatists are conspiring to drag the country
back into the civil war it only escaped a decade or so ago.

regards

Paul


--- paddy221666 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> the country was 'one' before your unionist
> terrorists git going.  you should also know
> those terrorists were not being forced out.  they had
> every right to remain in ireland had they not been
> so desparate for the teats of king and country.
>
> they were treasonous an cowardly old orange bigots, that's all.
>
> you are still in need of an education.
>
> regards, patrick
>
> --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > I rather suspect they would have claimed loyalty to King and Country,
> > rather than to any particular administration - least of all one that
> > was trying to break up the country and force them out.
> >
> > regards,
> > Paul
> >
> > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Paul,
> > >
> > > you seem to have gone 'dark'.  any reason?
> > >
> > > I was waiting to see how you would respond to my last post before
> > > enlightening you.
> > >
> > > the first unionist terror group, founded by the orange order and
> > > supported massively by protestants living in the NE corner of
ireland
> > > were in fact treasonous to the british crown and people.
> > >
> > > I'm constantly amazed at the depth of ignorance within the old
orange
> > > community.
> > >
> > > patrick
> > >
> > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Just so we're quite clear about what you're saying - against
> > > > which country were they committing treason? Were they traitors
> > > > to Ireland, or to the British Crown?
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I know that you subscribe to the old orange ideology and
that you
> > > > > prefer ignorance to enlightenment but I'll just throw this out
> > in case
> > > > >  there is actually anybody else coming here.
> > > > >
> > > > > when your old orange ancestors set up a provisional
government and
> > > > > armed a protestant militia, they were in fact committing
treason.
> > > > >
> > > > > now, do you wish to remain ignorant or do you want to get an
> > education
> > > > > in the culture you so fervently defend, in spite of the shame
> it has
> > > > > garnered?
> > > > >
> > > > > you see, your immoral notions of loyalty do not exempt you
> from the
> > > > > laws of the country into which you are born.  even snotty
> protestant
> > > > > landowners, industrialists, politicians and clergy are not
> above the
> > > > law.
> > > > >
> > > > > never were and never will again.
> > > > >
> > > > > pps
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. However, none
> > > > > > of what you wrote explains how it can possibly be
> > > > > > treason to want to remain part of the state you were
> > > > > > born in (the UK, in this case).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> > > > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> > > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary
> > > > > > state before the English were invited in.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > Paul
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I wouldn't waste my time trying to furnish you with
> > > > > > > enough material to overcome your innate ignorance of
> > > > > > > the history of NI.  you being an old orange, you will
> > > > > > > have been well brainwashed into avoiding the truth
> > > > > > > rather than taking an objective look at it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > the people of ireland should have been governing the
> > > > > > > whole country since shortly after 1918 when the people
> > > > > > > of ireland voted over 75% to determine their own destiny.
> > > > > > > if it had not been for the religious bigots in the NE
> > > > > > > corner, and a lot of treasonous help from others, it
> > > > > > > would have happened as promised.  if there had been
> > > > > > > no threat of violence from bigoted irish protestants
> > > > > > > the country could have enjoyed normal society.
> > > > > > > instead, the bigots filled your heads with fear and
> > > > > > > loathing that led ultimately to spontaneous sectarian
> > > > > > > murder on the street of belfast in 1966 that signaled
> > > > > > > the final demise of the old orange regime.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > admit it, your old orange culture simply hated people
> > > > > > > of another Christian faith.  if you admit that, you
> > > > > > > might feel better about yourself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I see there seems to be only you and me here.
> > > > > > > I suppose if I stopped posting you'd be happier.
> > > > > > > that way Alan and his old orange buddies
> > > > > > > could come here too.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > None of that explains how it can possibly be treason to
> > > > > > > > want to remain part of the state you were born in (the UK,
> > > > > > > > in this case).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > > > > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> > > > > > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> > > > > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary
state
> > > > > > > > before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > it's such a blur of activity here I almost missed your
> post.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > the inhabitants of ireland were and still are irish.
  that
> > > part
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > was partitioned off to remain under the control of
england
> > > > > > became NI.
> > > > > > > > >  the people there are british subjects.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > the people who caused NI to be created used treason and
> > > > > blackmail to
> > > > > > > > > achieve their goal.  they were irish protestants who
were
> > > > consumed
> > > > > > > > > with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by their
> > > religious and
> > > > > > > > > political leaders. it's historic fact.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ireland as a nation held an election in 1918 the
result of
> > > > > which was
> > > > > > > > > an overwhelming majority of the irish people in favour
> > of home
> > > > > rule
> > > > > > > > > for the island.  this had previously been agreed upon
> > > > between the
> > > > > > > > > dublin and london governments and would have been
> instituted
> > > > > excpet
> > > > > > > > > for the intervention of WW1.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > in any election there will be those who voted for the
> > > > majority and
> > > > > > > > > those who voted for the minority.  most civilised
peoples
> > > > > understand
> > > > > > > > > this.  not however the protestant bigots in the NE
corner
> > > of the
> > > > > > > > > island.  they, like you, seemed to think they had the
> > right to
> > > > > deny
> > > > > > > > > the will of the majority in ireland while at the
same time
> > > > denying
> > > > > > > > > civil and religious liberty for the minority of
> > > non-protestants
> > > > > > in NI
> > > > > > > > > that were stranded there following the partition of the
> > > island.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > this of course is the primary trait of an old orange for
> > they
> > > > > > ruled in
> > > > > > > > > this fashion until 1972 when the english realised
they had
> > > > > > handed over
> > > > > > > > > a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil bigots, most of
> whom
> > > > > > supported
> > > > > > > > > the ideals of the orange order and the biggest bigot
> of all,
> > > > > > paisley.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > starting in 1972 the english commenced a program that
> would
> > > > > deny the
> > > > > > > > > old oranges any further opportunities to discriminate
> > > against UK
> > > > > > > > > citizens.  this relieved the tremendous
embarrassment the
> > > whole
> > > > > > affair
> > > > > > > > > had become for the once proud and might english.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > your old orange credentials have been trotted out enough
> > times
> > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > and has probably caused whatever members there were to
> > > vacate.
> > > > > > today,
> > > > > > > > > most enlightened people would not subscribe to your
screwy
> > > > > > ideas.  the
> > > > > > > > > old orange culture of NI is not worth defending.  it
> had no
> > > > moral
> > > > > > > > > fibre to hold any argument presented by any old orange -
> > in or
> > > > > > out of
> > > > > > > > > ireland.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > thankfully, today in NI non-protestants have civil and
> > > religious
> > > > > > > > > rights equal to any UK citizen.  that wasn't the case
> under
> > > > > the old
> > > > > > > > > oranges.  that's what gets old oranges like you so
> > depressed.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Ignoring your abuse, for the moment, I'll just
> > > > > > > > > > point out that...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The inhabitants of what became Northern Ireland
> > > > > > > > > > were British subjects, so trying to remain British
> > > > > > > > > > could hardly be treason.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > There was no referendum in Ireland in 1918 on national
> > > > > > > > > > "self-determination". There was just an election to
> > > > > > > > > > parliament. It became abundantly clear that views
> > > > > > > > > > on where their future lay were very different in
> > > > > > > > > > the North East from those in the South and West.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > There is no law of the universe that one land mass
> > > > > > > > > > must be a single state. There are land borders in
> > > > > > > > > > North America and the main land mass of Scandinavia,
> > > > > > > > > > to name just two examples. Britain itself has been
> > > > > > > > > > separate states, and today is a Union of kingdoms.
> > > > > > > > > > Even Ireland was not a single kingdom in any real
> > > > > > > > > > sense before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Your other claims have been pre-refuted in this
> > > > > > > > > > group many times already, so I'll not weary the
> > > > > > > > > > members with a repetition. Feel free to
> > > > > > > > > > read the archives for enlightenment!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Finally, I'll paraphrase you: Your tired green
> > > > > > > > > > argument only works if you subscribe to green
> > > > > > > > > > principles with respect to democracy and how it
> > > > > > > > > > should operate :-)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I'm not pretending anything.  you're an old
orange as
> > > > > > > > demonstrated by
> > > > > > > > > > > your sympathies and your ignorance.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > my views on the old orange culture you so fervently
> > > > > support are
> > > > > > > > widely
> > > > > > > > > > > held.  it was an abomination of evil and terror.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > NI was founded to appease protestant irish religious
> > > > > bigots who
> > > > > > > > > > > happened to form a majority in the 6 counties of
> ireland
> > > > they
> > > > > > > > lovingly
> > > > > > > > > > > renamed 'ulster'.  they used treason, blackmail and
> > > > > violence to
> > > > > > > > force
> > > > > > > > > > > the partition of the country.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > in 1918 the whole population of the undivided
country
> > > > voted by
> > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > > > 70% to seek national self determination.  something
> > > > > hundreds of
> > > > > > > > > > > thousands of irish men and women fought in WW1 to
> > > > achieve for
> > > > > > > > similar
> > > > > > > > > > > smaller countries elsewhere.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > your tired old orange argument only works if you
> > subscribe
> > > > > > to old
> > > > > > > > > > > orange principles with respect to democracy and
how it
> > > > should
> > > > > > > > operate.
> > > > > > > > > > >   only an old orange like yourself could
advocate for
> > > > the will
> > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > minority so long as that minority is protestant.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > the old orange culture you hold so dearly had no
> respect
> > > > > for the
> > > > > > > > > > > catholic minority in NI.  they suppressed them for
> their
> > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > beliefs and denied them equal civil rights to
> > protestants.
> > > > >  this
> > > > > > > > > > > carried on until 1972 when the situation became so
> > > > > > > embarrassing for
> > > > > > > > > > > the english they had to dismantle the whole lot.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > now the whole country of ireland is being
governed by
> > > equals
> > > > > > > in fair
> > > > > > > > > > > and democratic elections.  many, many innocent
people
> > > > > would have
> > > > > > > > lived
> > > > > > > > > > > longer lives if the bigoted irish protestants who
> > > forced the
> > > > > > > > creation
> > > > > > > > > > > of NI had accepted the will of democracy and
developed
> > > > > civilised
> > > > > > > > > > > society in normal partnership with their fellow
> > > citizens who
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > happened to be believers in another Christian faith.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > fortunately, the days when 'ulster' protestants
> get what
> > > > they
> > > > > > > > want are
> > > > > > > > > > > over.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > you should do some more reading of NI history
and the
> > > > > bigots who
> > > > > > > > > > > caused way more trouble than they were worth.  you
> might
> > > > give
> > > > > > > up on
> > > > > > > > > > > fighting a losing battle.  the old orange days in NI
> > were
> > > > > > > > discredited
> > > > > > > > > > > a long time ago.  you're in a severe minority with
> your
> > > > > > > support for
> > > > > > > > > > > religious discrimination of whatever proportion.
> only a
> > > > > > true old
> > > > > > > > > > > orange could hold onto an immoral set of values by
> > > > > claiming that
> > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > could be worse.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ps still only you and me here.  how's it going
over at
> > > your
> > > > > > > > other site
> > > > > > > > > > > - the one you banned me from?  is it the same old
> > > repetitive
> > > > > > > > postings
> > > > > > > > > > > from Alan.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > So you're still pretending that disagreeing with
> > > your just
> > > > > > > > slightly
> > > > > > > > > > > > extreme views makes me an "old orange". Since
nobody
> > > > but you
> > > > > > > knows
> > > > > > > > > > > > what that means, I'll try not to get too upset :)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Let's try to find some points (rather than mere
> abuse)
> > > > > in your
> > > > > > > > > > > > message, and examine them again.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland was not founded "to divide and
> > > partition
> > > > > > > > ireland".
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland was partitioned, and the Irish Free
> State and
> > > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > Ireland
> > > > > > > > > > > > were formed BECAUSE Ireland was ALREADY DIVIDED on
> > > how it
> > > > > > wanted
> > > > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > ruled.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You might well have preferred that the million or
> > so UK
> > > > > > > > citizens who
> > > > > > > > > > > > formed the greater number in the north east were
> > > > > > unceremoniously
> > > > > > > > > > > > ejected, and forced into a confessional state.
Some
> > > > > Unionists
> > > > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > > > > have preferred the several million in the south
> > and east
> > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > forced
> > > > > > > > > > > > to stay in the Union with Britain. But it is not
> > > > possible to
> > > > > > > give
> > > > > > > > > > > > everyone what they want.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The settlement was that both communities would be
> > > > allowed to
> > > > > > > > express
> > > > > > > > > > > > their identity, and live in the state to which
> > they gave
> > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > > alliegance. Because the Irish people as a whole
> > did not
> > > > > have a
> > > > > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > > > > > view on how they should be governed, a line was
> drawn.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pleased to see you're not justifying PIRA
> > > > atrocities as
> > > > > > > > > such, even
> > > > > > > > > > > > while you try to absolve them of any actual
> > > > responsibility.
> > > > > > > Do you
> > > > > > > > > > > > believe in some sort of marxist historical
> > necessity? An
> > > > > > > > inevitable
> > > > > > > > > > > > revolution brought about by the contradictions
> > inherent
> > > > > in the
> > > > > > > > > system?
> > > > > > > > > > > > It's bunk. If people kill, maim, and bomb - THEY
> > > must take
> > > > > > > > > > > responsibility.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Your attempt to shift the blame is offensive and
> > > > > wrong-headed:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "your lot started the murderous campaigns and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with treason and violence forced a situation..."
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You seem to have difficulty reading that I
condemned
> > > > > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > > > where it occurred in the North - so I'll say it
> > again.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I. condemn. discrimination. where. it.
occurred. in.
> > > the.
> > > > > > north.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > To avoid hypocrisy, I'll also condemn it in the
> South.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You are free to disbelieve me when I point out
that
> > > there
> > > > > > > was less
> > > > > > > > > > > > discrimination in the north than you claim (and no
> > "holy
> > > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > > war"). Similarly, you can ignore any hint that
> > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > happened
> > > > > > > > > > > > in the south as well. If it makes it easier,
you can
> > > > pretend
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > events in the south were "irrelevant" to the
> views and
> > > > > > > actions of
> > > > > > > > > > > > people in the north. You would still be wrong,
> though.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, you dismiss the Southern reluctance
to act
> > > > > > against the
> > > > > > > > > IRA as
> > > > > > > > > > > > "a grand display of old orange ignorance". Are you
> > > denying
> > > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > > > southern administration or its members ran guns to
> > > the IRA
> > > > > > > > > (Haughey),
> > > > > > > > > > > > or allowed training camps to operate with
> impunity in
> > > > > > > Donegal and
> > > > > > > > > > > > other border counties, or dragged their feet on
> > > > extradition,
> > > > > > > > > sometimes
> > > > > > > > > > > > refusing outright to make terrorists answer for
> their
> > > > crimes
> > > > > > > in a
> > > > > > > > > > > > court of law, or refused to allow hot pursuit
> over the
> > > > > > > border - to
> > > > > > > > > > > > such an extent that terrorists could sit safely
> in the
> > > > > > > > Republic, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > remotely detonate bombs against targets in
Northern
> > > > Ireland?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > It was not until the atrocities of 9/11 that the
> > > > > hypocritical
> > > > > > > > double
> > > > > > > > > > > > standard of the Irish (and US) government with
> > regard to
> > > > > > > > > terrorism in
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland was seriously threatened.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > And just because I don't have time to refute all
> your
> > > > other
> > > > > > > > > throw away
> > > > > > > > > > > > accusations and misleading or selective
> > > > characterisations of
> > > > > > > > events,
> > > > > > > > > > > > don't assume that I agree with the rest of
what you
> > > wrote.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "when it was founded after the south got its
> > autonomy"
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > it was founded to divide and partition ireland.
> > > to say
> > > > > > it had
> > > > > > > > > > faults
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is a huge understatement.  NI governments are
> > > > > characterised
> > > > > > > > by the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > bigotry that directed policy.  in my book it was
> > > an evil
> > > > > > > period
> > > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the years the old orange bigots controlled NI.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you're the one hooked on justifying old orange
> > > actions.
> > > > > > > I'm not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > justifying (P)IRA terrorism.  you're just
> > raising the
> > > > > > spectre
> > > > > > > > > of an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > old orange again.  you're true to form all
right.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > your lot started the murderous campaigns and
with
> > > > > > treason and
> > > > > > > > > > violence
> > > > > > > > > > > > > forced a situation to develop that encouraged
> > > > spontaneous
> > > > > > > > > murder of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > innocent catholics.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > from the 1920s to 1972, until it was
> dismantled, NI
> > > > > > > protestants
> > > > > > > > > > > > > supported by popular vote the continued
religious
> > > > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > > > > enacted on their behalf against fellow UK
> citizens.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the actions of the (P)IRA during the war were
> > > > harnessed by
> > > > > > > > the old
> > > > > > > > > > > > > oranges to their harsh treatment of fellow
> citizens.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > looks to me like you only see republicans as
> > evil.  I
> > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > disagree
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with you on that.  the problem though is every
> > time I
> > > > > expose
> > > > > > > > > some of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the evil that was unionist politics or terrorism
> > > you go
> > > > > > > > ape-shit.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "or the Southern reluctance to act against the
> IRA."
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a grand display of old orange ignorance.  you
> > > really do
> > > > > > > need to
> > > > > > > > > > read a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > bit more.  the forum looks a bit neglected.
  there
> > > only
> > > > > > seems
> > > > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the two of us.  I hope things improve before
> you ban
> > > > > me from
> > > > > > > > > > here too.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course there were faults with the Northern
> > Irish
> > > > > > > government
> > > > > > > > > > > between
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 1920s, when it was founded after the south
> > > got its
> > > > > > > > > > autonomy, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1972, when it was taken over by Westminster -
> > > > > > > particularly if
> > > > > > > > > > we are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > judging by the standards of today.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it is a travesty to pretend that such
> > faults as
> > > > > > > there were
> > > > > > > > > > > in any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > way justified, much less forced, the IRA's
> > murderous
> > > > > > > > campaign to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > undermine the wishes of the greater number of
> > > Northern
> > > > > > > > Ireland's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > citizens to live at peace in the Union.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be an equal travesty to maintain that
> > > > southern
> > > > > > > > > > > collusion with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the IRA, or such institutional sectarianism as
> > > existed
> > > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > > > > > southern
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > state, justified the loyalist bombings
> there. That
> > > > > > could not
> > > > > > > > > > even be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > justified by IRA atrocities in the North,
or the
> > > > > Southern
> > > > > > > > > > reluctance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to act against the IRA.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you somehow conceive that these views make
> > me an
> > > > > > > > > apologist for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > bigotry, that is your right and privilege.
It's
> > > still
> > > > > > > > > tendentious
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > nonsense though, and you really shouldn't
assume
> > > > that I
> > > > > > > agree.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your monomaniacal insistence that all the
evils
> > > of the
> > > > > > past
> > > > > > > > > > century
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > can be laid at the door of the community of
> > > which you
> > > > > > > are not
> > > > > > > > > > a part
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > seems like a self-serving rationalisation,
> wilful
> > > > > > > > blindness, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > smacks not a little of the type of bigotry you
> > > see in
> > > > > > > everyone
> > > > > > > > > > else.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you have any ideas on peacemaking beyond
> > > > getting all
> > > > > > > > > > > protestants to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wear sackcloth and ashes for ever?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you picked the title, not me.  you
define it,
> > > > not me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as for useful discussion, I'm at a loss.
  you
> > > hardly
> > > > > > > > ever come
> > > > > > > > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and when you do it's mostly to chastise me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the old orange regime was terrible.  it was
> > > morally
> > > > > > > > > bankrupt and
> > > > > > > > > > > > evil
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but was kept alive too long.  it
> eventually got
> > > > NI its
> > > > > > > > recent
> > > > > > > > > > > war.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that's what happens when morally bankrupt
> > regimes
> > > > > exist.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not impressed with your observation
> > since you
> > > > > exist
> > > > > > > > within
> > > > > > > > > > > > an old
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > orange bubble that hasn't burst yet.
this is
> > > > what is
> > > > > > > > still a
> > > > > > > > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in NI.  too many brain-washed and
ignorant old
> > > > > oranges.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  --- In
> peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Patrick asks "why not". If someone
sincerely
> > > > > > > believes that
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Peace in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland" is the same as "why
> one side
> > > > > is are
> > > > > > > > not to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > blame at
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all, and the other lot caused it all",
> then it
> > > > > is hard
> > > > > > > > > to see
> > > > > > > > > > > > he or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > she could join in any useful discussion of
> > > peace,
> > > > > > beyond
> > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > kind of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > futile "'aren't "they" terrible', mutual
> > > > > back-slapping
> > > > > > > > > circle.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for using the phrase "the accepted
> > opinion of
> > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people" to bolster his personal
> interpretation
> > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > conflict, I'll
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > point out that the consensus among
> reasonable
> > > > > > > observers is
> > > > > > > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "war" in Northern Ireland was political,
> > > > rather than
> > > > > > > > > > > > religious. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > situation was clearly inflamed by ethnic
> > > > > tensions, but
> > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > was no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > religious war as such. As opposed to the
> 16th
> > > > > century,
> > > > > > > > > > > nobody was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > killed over their views on, say,
> > > > > > transubstantiation. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > minority who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tried periodically throughout the 20th
> > > century to
> > > > > > > > > overturn the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > settlement reached in the 1920s were
> fighting
> > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > politics and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > land.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those who opposed them were defending
their
> > > > > > > > government, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > resisting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > encroachment by what at the time was a
> > > > > > backward-looking,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > impoverished,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and censorious state.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Things have moved on, fortunately.
> Citizens on
> > > > both
> > > > > > > sides
> > > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > border are better off. And practically
> > nobody is
> > > > > > > trying to
> > > > > > > > > > > impose
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their will by murder and bombing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, if we can mop up the remaining
thugs as
> > > they
> > > > > > try to
> > > > > > > > > hold
> > > > > > > > > > > > on to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their power by organising crime empires,
> > and if
> > > > > we can
> > > > > > > > > > > improve the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > democracy of the structures of
> government, and
> > > > avoid
> > > > > > > > > > losing our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hard-won freedoms to inflated hysteria
over
> > > > > "Islamic"
> > > > > > > > > > terrorism
> > > > > > > > > > > > > (or US
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "imperialism"), if we can address
> factors that
> > > > > > > threaten us
> > > > > > > > > > > > all, like
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > institutional global inequalities and
global
> > > > > warming,
> > > > > > > > > > things may
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > continue to improve.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why not Paul?  if you spent some
time here
> > > > we just
> > > > > > > > > might get
> > > > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > debate but you seem reluctant to
> > challenge the
> > > > > > > accepted
> > > > > > > > > > > > opinion of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > many reasonable people that if the old
> > > > oranges of
> > > > > > > NI (of
> > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are still toooooo many) had dropped
their
> > > > > > > religious war
> > > > > > > > > > on RCs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would have been no war recently.  if
> > ignorant
> > > > > bigots
> > > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > > > > paisley
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hadn't aroused ancient hatreds among his
> > > > sect they
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > have been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > more satisfied now than they are having
> > > lost the
> > > > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > > battle.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In
> > peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm off on holidays. Feel free to
> discuss
> > > > > > "peace in
> > > > > > > > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > while I'm out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note to Patrick - that is not
> NECESSARILY
> > > > > the same
> > > > > > > > > as "why
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the fault of the other side".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

the country was 'one' before your unionist terrorists git going.  you
should also know those terrorists were not being forced out.  they had
every right to remain in ireland had they not been so desparate for
the teats of king and country.

they were treasonous an cowardly old orange bigots, that's all.

you are still in need of an education.

regards, patrick

--- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I rather suspect they would have claimed loyalty to King and Country,
> rather than to any particular administration - least of all one that
> was trying to break up the country and force them out.
>
> regards,
> Paul
>
> --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > you seem to have gone 'dark'.  any reason?
> >
> > I was waiting to see how you would respond to my last post before
> > enlightening you.
> >
> > the first unionist terror group, founded by the orange order and
> > supported massively by protestants living in the NE corner of ireland
> > were in fact treasonous to the british crown and people.
> >
> > I'm constantly amazed at the depth of ignorance within the old orange
> > community.
> >
> > patrick
> >
> > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Just so we're quite clear about what you're saying - against
> > > which country were they committing treason? Were they traitors
> > > to Ireland, or to the British Crown?
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I know that you subscribe to the old orange ideology and that you
> > > > prefer ignorance to enlightenment but I'll just throw this out
> in case
> > > >  there is actually anybody else coming here.
> > > >
> > > > when your old orange ancestors set up a provisional government and
> > > > armed a protestant militia, they were in fact committing treason.
> > > >
> > > > now, do you wish to remain ignorant or do you want to get an
> education
> > > > in the culture you so fervently defend, in spite of the shame
it has
> > > > garnered?
> > > >
> > > > you see, your immoral notions of loyalty do not exempt you
from the
> > > > laws of the country into which you are born.  even snotty
protestant
> > > > landowners, industrialists, politicians and clergy are not
above the
> > > law.
> > > >
> > > > never were and never will again.
> > > >
> > > > pps
> > > >
> > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. However, none
> > > > > of what you wrote explains how it can possibly be
> > > > > treason to want to remain part of the state you were
> > > > > born in (the UK, in this case).
> > > > >
> > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> > > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary
> > > > > state before the English were invited in.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards,
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wouldn't waste my time trying to furnish you with
> > > > > > enough material to overcome your innate ignorance of
> > > > > > the history of NI.  you being an old orange, you will
> > > > > > have been well brainwashed into avoiding the truth
> > > > > > rather than taking an objective look at it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the people of ireland should have been governing the
> > > > > > whole country since shortly after 1918 when the people
> > > > > > of ireland voted over 75% to determine their own destiny.
> > > > > > if it had not been for the religious bigots in the NE
> > > > > > corner, and a lot of treasonous help from others, it
> > > > > > would have happened as promised.  if there had been
> > > > > > no threat of violence from bigoted irish protestants
> > > > > > the country could have enjoyed normal society.
> > > > > > instead, the bigots filled your heads with fear and
> > > > > > loathing that led ultimately to spontaneous sectarian
> > > > > > murder on the street of belfast in 1966 that signaled
> > > > > > the final demise of the old orange regime.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > admit it, your old orange culture simply hated people
> > > > > > of another Christian faith.  if you admit that, you
> > > > > > might feel better about yourself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I see there seems to be only you and me here.
> > > > > > I suppose if I stopped posting you'd be happier.
> > > > > > that way Alan and his old orange buddies
> > > > > > could come here too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > pps
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > None of that explains how it can possibly be treason to
> > > > > > > want to remain part of the state you were born in (the UK,
> > > > > > > in this case).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > > > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> > > > > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> > > > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary state
> > > > > > > before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > it's such a blur of activity here I almost missed your
post.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > the inhabitants of ireland were and still are irish.  that
> > part
> > > > > which
> > > > > > > > was partitioned off to remain under the control of england
> > > > > became NI.
> > > > > > > >  the people there are british subjects.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > the people who caused NI to be created used treason and
> > > > blackmail to
> > > > > > > > achieve their goal.  they were irish protestants who were
> > > consumed
> > > > > > > > with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by their
> > religious and
> > > > > > > > political leaders. it's historic fact.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ireland as a nation held an election in 1918 the result of
> > > > which was
> > > > > > > > an overwhelming majority of the irish people in favour
> of home
> > > > rule
> > > > > > > > for the island.  this had previously been agreed upon
> > > between the
> > > > > > > > dublin and london governments and would have been
instituted
> > > > excpet
> > > > > > > > for the intervention of WW1.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > in any election there will be those who voted for the
> > > majority and
> > > > > > > > those who voted for the minority.  most civilised peoples
> > > > understand
> > > > > > > > this.  not however the protestant bigots in the NE corner
> > of the
> > > > > > > > island.  they, like you, seemed to think they had the
> right to
> > > > deny
> > > > > > > > the will of the majority in ireland while at the same time
> > > denying
> > > > > > > > civil and religious liberty for the minority of
> > non-protestants
> > > > > in NI
> > > > > > > > that were stranded there following the partition of the
> > island.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > this of course is the primary trait of an old orange for
> they
> > > > > ruled in
> > > > > > > > this fashion until 1972 when the english realised they had
> > > > > handed over
> > > > > > > > a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil bigots, most of
whom
> > > > > supported
> > > > > > > > the ideals of the orange order and the biggest bigot
of all,
> > > > > paisley.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > starting in 1972 the english commenced a program that
would
> > > > deny the
> > > > > > > > old oranges any further opportunities to discriminate
> > against UK
> > > > > > > > citizens.  this relieved the tremendous embarrassment the
> > whole
> > > > > affair
> > > > > > > > had become for the once proud and might english.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > your old orange credentials have been trotted out enough
> times
> > > > here
> > > > > > > > and has probably caused whatever members there were to
> > vacate.
> > > > > today,
> > > > > > > > most enlightened people would not subscribe to your screwy
> > > > > ideas.  the
> > > > > > > > old orange culture of NI is not worth defending.  it
had no
> > > moral
> > > > > > > > fibre to hold any argument presented by any old orange -
> in or
> > > > > out of
> > > > > > > > ireland.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > thankfully, today in NI non-protestants have civil and
> > religious
> > > > > > > > rights equal to any UK citizen.  that wasn't the case
under
> > > > the old
> > > > > > > > oranges.  that's what gets old oranges like you so
> depressed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ignoring your abuse, for the moment, I'll just
> > > > > > > > > point out that...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The inhabitants of what became Northern Ireland
> > > > > > > > > were British subjects, so trying to remain British
> > > > > > > > > could hardly be treason.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There was no referendum in Ireland in 1918 on national
> > > > > > > > > "self-determination". There was just an election to
> > > > > > > > > parliament. It became abundantly clear that views
> > > > > > > > > on where their future lay were very different in
> > > > > > > > > the North East from those in the South and West.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There is no law of the universe that one land mass
> > > > > > > > > must be a single state. There are land borders in
> > > > > > > > > North America and the main land mass of Scandinavia,
> > > > > > > > > to name just two examples. Britain itself has been
> > > > > > > > > separate states, and today is a Union of kingdoms.
> > > > > > > > > Even Ireland was not a single kingdom in any real
> > > > > > > > > sense before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Your other claims have been pre-refuted in this
> > > > > > > > > group many times already, so I'll not weary the
> > > > > > > > > members with a repetition. Feel free to
> > > > > > > > > read the archives for enlightenment!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Finally, I'll paraphrase you: Your tired green
> > > > > > > > > argument only works if you subscribe to green
> > > > > > > > > principles with respect to democracy and how it
> > > > > > > > > should operate :-)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'm not pretending anything.  you're an old orange as
> > > > > > > demonstrated by
> > > > > > > > > > your sympathies and your ignorance.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > my views on the old orange culture you so fervently
> > > > support are
> > > > > > > widely
> > > > > > > > > > held.  it was an abomination of evil and terror.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > NI was founded to appease protestant irish religious
> > > > bigots who
> > > > > > > > > > happened to form a majority in the 6 counties of
ireland
> > > they
> > > > > > > lovingly
> > > > > > > > > > renamed 'ulster'.  they used treason, blackmail and
> > > > violence to
> > > > > > > force
> > > > > > > > > > the partition of the country.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > in 1918 the whole population of the undivided country
> > > voted by
> > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > > 70% to seek national self determination.  something
> > > > hundreds of
> > > > > > > > > > thousands of irish men and women fought in WW1 to
> > > achieve for
> > > > > > > similar
> > > > > > > > > > smaller countries elsewhere.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > your tired old orange argument only works if you
> subscribe
> > > > > to old
> > > > > > > > > > orange principles with respect to democracy and how it
> > > should
> > > > > > > operate.
> > > > > > > > > >   only an old orange like yourself could advocate for
> > > the will
> > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > minority so long as that minority is protestant.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > the old orange culture you hold so dearly had no
respect
> > > > for the
> > > > > > > > > > catholic minority in NI.  they suppressed them for
their
> > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > beliefs and denied them equal civil rights to
> protestants.
> > > >  this
> > > > > > > > > > carried on until 1972 when the situation became so
> > > > > > embarrassing for
> > > > > > > > > > the english they had to dismantle the whole lot.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > now the whole country of ireland is being governed by
> > equals
> > > > > > in fair
> > > > > > > > > > and democratic elections.  many, many innocent people
> > > > would have
> > > > > > > lived
> > > > > > > > > > longer lives if the bigoted irish protestants who
> > forced the
> > > > > > > creation
> > > > > > > > > > of NI had accepted the will of democracy and developed
> > > > civilised
> > > > > > > > > > society in normal partnership with their fellow
> > citizens who
> > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > happened to be believers in another Christian faith.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > fortunately, the days when 'ulster' protestants
get what
> > > they
> > > > > > > want are
> > > > > > > > > > over.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > you should do some more reading of NI history and the
> > > > bigots who
> > > > > > > > > > caused way more trouble than they were worth.  you
might
> > > give
> > > > > > up on
> > > > > > > > > > fighting a losing battle.  the old orange days in NI
> were
> > > > > > > discredited
> > > > > > > > > > a long time ago.  you're in a severe minority with
your
> > > > > > support for
> > > > > > > > > > religious discrimination of whatever proportion.
only a
> > > > > true old
> > > > > > > > > > orange could hold onto an immoral set of values by
> > > > claiming that
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > could be worse.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ps still only you and me here.  how's it going over at
> > your
> > > > > > > other site
> > > > > > > > > > - the one you banned me from?  is it the same old
> > repetitive
> > > > > > > postings
> > > > > > > > > > from Alan.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So you're still pretending that disagreeing with
> > your just
> > > > > > > slightly
> > > > > > > > > > > extreme views makes me an "old orange". Since nobody
> > > but you
> > > > > > knows
> > > > > > > > > > > what that means, I'll try not to get too upset :)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Let's try to find some points (rather than mere
abuse)
> > > > in your
> > > > > > > > > > > message, and examine them again.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland was not founded "to divide and
> > partition
> > > > > > > ireland".
> > > > > > > > > > > Ireland was partitioned, and the Irish Free
State and
> > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > Ireland
> > > > > > > > > > > were formed BECAUSE Ireland was ALREADY DIVIDED on
> > how it
> > > > > wanted
> > > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > ruled.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You might well have preferred that the million or
> so UK
> > > > > > > citizens who
> > > > > > > > > > > formed the greater number in the north east were
> > > > > unceremoniously
> > > > > > > > > > > ejected, and forced into a confessional state. Some
> > > > Unionists
> > > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > > > have preferred the several million in the south
> and east
> > > > to be
> > > > > > > > forced
> > > > > > > > > > > to stay in the Union with Britain. But it is not
> > > possible to
> > > > > > give
> > > > > > > > > > > everyone what they want.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The settlement was that both communities would be
> > > allowed to
> > > > > > > express
> > > > > > > > > > > their identity, and live in the state to which
> they gave
> > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > alliegance. Because the Irish people as a whole
> did not
> > > > have a
> > > > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > > > > view on how they should be governed, a line was
drawn.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I'm pleased to see you're not justifying PIRA
> > > atrocities as
> > > > > > > > such, even
> > > > > > > > > > > while you try to absolve them of any actual
> > > responsibility.
> > > > > > Do you
> > > > > > > > > > > believe in some sort of marxist historical
> necessity? An
> > > > > > > inevitable
> > > > > > > > > > > revolution brought about by the contradictions
> inherent
> > > > in the
> > > > > > > > system?
> > > > > > > > > > > It's bunk. If people kill, maim, and bomb - THEY
> > must take
> > > > > > > > > > responsibility.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Your attempt to shift the blame is offensive and
> > > > wrong-headed:
> > > > > > > > > > > > "your lot started the murderous campaigns and
> > > > > > > > > > > > with treason and violence forced a situation..."
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You seem to have difficulty reading that I condemned
> > > > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > > where it occurred in the North - so I'll say it
> again.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I. condemn. discrimination. where. it. occurred. in.
> > the.
> > > > > north.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > To avoid hypocrisy, I'll also condemn it in the
South.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You are free to disbelieve me when I point out that
> > there
> > > > > > was less
> > > > > > > > > > > discrimination in the north than you claim (and no
> "holy
> > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > war"). Similarly, you can ignore any hint that
> > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > happened
> > > > > > > > > > > in the south as well. If it makes it easier, you can
> > > pretend
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > events in the south were "irrelevant" to the
views and
> > > > > > actions of
> > > > > > > > > > > people in the north. You would still be wrong,
though.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Finally, you dismiss the Southern reluctance to act
> > > > > against the
> > > > > > > > IRA as
> > > > > > > > > > > "a grand display of old orange ignorance". Are you
> > denying
> > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > > southern administration or its members ran guns to
> > the IRA
> > > > > > > > (Haughey),
> > > > > > > > > > > or allowed training camps to operate with
impunity in
> > > > > > Donegal and
> > > > > > > > > > > other border counties, or dragged their feet on
> > > extradition,
> > > > > > > > sometimes
> > > > > > > > > > > refusing outright to make terrorists answer for
their
> > > crimes
> > > > > > in a
> > > > > > > > > > > court of law, or refused to allow hot pursuit
over the
> > > > > > border - to
> > > > > > > > > > > such an extent that terrorists could sit safely
in the
> > > > > > > Republic, and
> > > > > > > > > > > remotely detonate bombs against targets in Northern
> > > Ireland?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > It was not until the atrocities of 9/11 that the
> > > > hypocritical
> > > > > > > double
> > > > > > > > > > > standard of the Irish (and US) government with
> regard to
> > > > > > > > terrorism in
> > > > > > > > > > > Ireland was seriously threatened.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And just because I don't have time to refute all
your
> > > other
> > > > > > > > throw away
> > > > > > > > > > > accusations and misleading or selective
> > > characterisations of
> > > > > > > events,
> > > > > > > > > > > don't assume that I agree with the rest of what you
> > wrote.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "when it was founded after the south got its
> autonomy"
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > it was founded to divide and partition ireland.
> > to say
> > > > > it had
> > > > > > > > > faults
> > > > > > > > > > > > is a huge understatement.  NI governments are
> > > > characterised
> > > > > > > by the
> > > > > > > > > > > > bigotry that directed policy.  in my book it was
> > an evil
> > > > > > period
> > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > the years the old orange bigots controlled NI.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > you're the one hooked on justifying old orange
> > actions.
> > > > > > I'm not
> > > > > > > > > > > > justifying (P)IRA terrorism.  you're just
> raising the
> > > > > spectre
> > > > > > > > of an
> > > > > > > > > > > > old orange again.  you're true to form all right.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > your lot started the murderous campaigns and with
> > > > > treason and
> > > > > > > > > violence
> > > > > > > > > > > > forced a situation to develop that encouraged
> > > spontaneous
> > > > > > > > murder of
> > > > > > > > > > > > innocent catholics.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > from the 1920s to 1972, until it was
dismantled, NI
> > > > > > protestants
> > > > > > > > > > > > supported by popular vote the continued religious
> > > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > > > enacted on their behalf against fellow UK
citizens.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > the actions of the (P)IRA during the war were
> > > harnessed by
> > > > > > > the old
> > > > > > > > > > > > oranges to their harsh treatment of fellow
citizens.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > looks to me like you only see republicans as
> evil.  I
> > > > don't
> > > > > > > > disagree
> > > > > > > > > > > > with you on that.  the problem though is every
> time I
> > > > expose
> > > > > > > > some of
> > > > > > > > > > > > the evil that was unionist politics or terrorism
> > you go
> > > > > > > ape-shit.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "or the Southern reluctance to act against the
IRA."
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > a grand display of old orange ignorance.  you
> > really do
> > > > > > need to
> > > > > > > > > read a
> > > > > > > > > > > > bit more.  the forum looks a bit neglected.  there
> > only
> > > > > seems
> > > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > the two of us.  I hope things improve before
you ban
> > > > me from
> > > > > > > > > here too.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course there were faults with the Northern
> Irish
> > > > > > government
> > > > > > > > > > between
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the 1920s, when it was founded after the south
> > got its
> > > > > > > > > autonomy, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 1972, when it was taken over by Westminster -
> > > > > > particularly if
> > > > > > > > > we are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > judging by the standards of today.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But it is a travesty to pretend that such
> faults as
> > > > > > there were
> > > > > > > > > > in any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > way justified, much less forced, the IRA's
> murderous
> > > > > > > campaign to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > undermine the wishes of the greater number of
> > Northern
> > > > > > > Ireland's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > citizens to live at peace in the Union.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be an equal travesty to maintain that
> > > southern
> > > > > > > > > > collusion with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the IRA, or such institutional sectarianism as
> > existed
> > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > > > > southern
> > > > > > > > > > > > > state, justified the loyalist bombings
there. That
> > > > > could not
> > > > > > > > > even be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > justified by IRA atrocities in the North, or the
> > > > Southern
> > > > > > > > > reluctance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to act against the IRA.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you somehow conceive that these views make
> me an
> > > > > > > > apologist for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > bigotry, that is your right and privilege. It's
> > still
> > > > > > > > tendentious
> > > > > > > > > > > > > nonsense though, and you really shouldn't assume
> > > that I
> > > > > > agree.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Your monomaniacal insistence that all the evils
> > of the
> > > > > past
> > > > > > > > > century
> > > > > > > > > > > > > can be laid at the door of the community of
> > which you
> > > > > > are not
> > > > > > > > > a part
> > > > > > > > > > > > > seems like a self-serving rationalisation,
wilful
> > > > > > > blindness, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > smacks not a little of the type of bigotry you
> > see in
> > > > > > everyone
> > > > > > > > > else.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you have any ideas on peacemaking beyond
> > > getting all
> > > > > > > > > > protestants to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wear sackcloth and ashes for ever?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you picked the title, not me.  you define it,
> > > not me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > as for useful discussion, I'm at a loss.  you
> > hardly
> > > > > > > ever come
> > > > > > > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and when you do it's mostly to chastise me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the old orange regime was terrible.  it was
> > morally
> > > > > > > > bankrupt and
> > > > > > > > > > > evil
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > but was kept alive too long.  it
eventually got
> > > NI its
> > > > > > > recent
> > > > > > > > > > war.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that's what happens when morally bankrupt
> regimes
> > > > exist.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not impressed with your observation
> since you
> > > > exist
> > > > > > > within
> > > > > > > > > > > an old
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > orange bubble that hasn't burst yet.  this is
> > > what is
> > > > > > > still a
> > > > > > > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > in NI.  too many brain-washed and ignorant old
> > > > oranges.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >  --- In
peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Patrick asks "why not". If someone sincerely
> > > > > > believes that
> > > > > > > > > > > "Peace in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland" is the same as "why
one side
> > > > is are
> > > > > > > not to
> > > > > > > > > > > > blame at
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all, and the other lot caused it all",
then it
> > > > is hard
> > > > > > > > to see
> > > > > > > > > > > he or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > she could join in any useful discussion of
> > peace,
> > > > > beyond
> > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > kind of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > futile "'aren't "they" terrible', mutual
> > > > back-slapping
> > > > > > > > circle.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for using the phrase "the accepted
> opinion of
> > > > many
> > > > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people" to bolster his personal
interpretation
> > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > conflict, I'll
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > point out that the consensus among
reasonable
> > > > > > observers is
> > > > > > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "war" in Northern Ireland was political,
> > > rather than
> > > > > > > > > > > religious. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > situation was clearly inflamed by ethnic
> > > > tensions, but
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > was no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > religious war as such. As opposed to the
16th
> > > > century,
> > > > > > > > > > nobody was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > killed over their views on, say,
> > > > > transubstantiation. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > minority who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tried periodically throughout the 20th
> > century to
> > > > > > > > overturn the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > settlement reached in the 1920s were
fighting
> > > about
> > > > > > > > > politics and
> > > > > > > > > > > > land.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those who opposed them were defending their
> > > > > > > government, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > resisting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > encroachment by what at the time was a
> > > > > backward-looking,
> > > > > > > > > > > > impoverished,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and censorious state.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Things have moved on, fortunately.
Citizens on
> > > both
> > > > > > sides
> > > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > border are better off. And practically
> nobody is
> > > > > > trying to
> > > > > > > > > > impose
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their will by murder and bombing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, if we can mop up the remaining thugs as
> > they
> > > > > try to
> > > > > > > > hold
> > > > > > > > > > > on to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their power by organising crime empires,
> and if
> > > > we can
> > > > > > > > > > improve the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > democracy of the structures of
government, and
> > > avoid
> > > > > > > > > losing our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hard-won freedoms to inflated hysteria over
> > > > "Islamic"
> > > > > > > > > terrorism
> > > > > > > > > > > > (or US
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "imperialism"), if we can address
factors that
> > > > > > threaten us
> > > > > > > > > > > all, like
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > institutional global inequalities and global
> > > > warming,
> > > > > > > > > things may
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > continue to improve.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why not Paul?  if you spent some time here
> > > we just
> > > > > > > > might get
> > > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > debate but you seem reluctant to
> challenge the
> > > > > > accepted
> > > > > > > > > > > opinion of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > many reasonable people that if the old
> > > oranges of
> > > > > > NI (of
> > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are still toooooo many) had dropped their
> > > > > > religious war
> > > > > > > > > on RCs
> > > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would have been no war recently.  if
> ignorant
> > > > bigots
> > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > > > paisley
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hadn't aroused ancient hatreds among his
> > > sect they
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > have been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > more satisfied now than they are having
> > lost the
> > > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > > battle.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In
> peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm off on holidays. Feel free to
discuss
> > > > > "peace in
> > > > > > > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > while I'm out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note to Patrick - that is not
NECESSARILY
> > > > the same
> > > > > > > > as "why
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the fault of the other side".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Do you think the lady is an Ulster Brit?

Klinger.








Subject: Common Sense

My parents told me about Mr. Common Sense early in
my life and told me I would do well to call on him when making decisions.
It seems he was always around in my early years but less and less as time
passed by.

Today I read his obituary. Please join me in a
moment of silence in remembrance. For Common Sense has served us all so
well for so many generations.

Obituary
Common Sense

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend,
Common Sense,
who has
been with us for many years. No one knows for sure
how old
he was since his birth records were long ago lost
in bureaucratic
red
tape..

He will be remembered as having cultivated such
valuable lessons as
knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the
early bird gets the

worm,
why life isn't always fair, and how, on occasion,
maybe it was my
fault..

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial
policies (don't spend
more
than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies
(adults, not
children are
in charge).

His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well
intentioned but
overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports
of a six-year-old
boy
charged with sexual harassment for kissing a
classmate; teens
suspended
from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a
teacher fired for
reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his
condition.
Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked
teachers for doing
the job
they themselves failed to do in disciplining their
unruly children.
It
declined even further when schools were required to
get parental
consent
to administer aspirin, sun lotion or a sticky
plaster to a student;
but
could not inform the parents when a student became
pregnant and
wanted to
have an abortion.

Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten
Commandments became
contraband; churches became businesses; and
criminals received
better
treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a
beating when you
couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own
home and the
burglar
can sue you for assault.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after
a woman failed
to
realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She
spilled a little
in her
lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents,
Truth and Trust;
his
wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and
his son, Reason.

He is
survived by three stepbrothers; I Know my Rights,
Someone Else is to
Blame, and I'm a Victim.

Not many attended his funeral because so few
realized he was gone.
If you
still remember him pass this on. If not, join the
majority and do
nothing.


Author unknown








xavier black <xaviery2002@...> writes on
Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:06:36 +0100 (MET):

> What is this britophile doing on this list! She's not
> only an old orange she's a very old Brit!
>
> --- celtictygress <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Thank you, Erich. Hope you had a very Merry
> > Christmas. And may the New
> > Year bring blessings to all.
> >
> > Janice
> > Boston
> >
> > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, Erich
> > Klinger
> > <Erich.Klinger@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Wishing everyone a Happy Christmas, whatever your
> > > circumstances, I hope your Christmas will be a
> > good
> > > one.
> > >
> > > Happy Christmas.
> > >
> > > Klinger.
> > >

xavier black <xaviery2002@...> writes on
Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:06:36 +0100 (MET):

> What is this britophile doing on this list! She's not
> only an old orange she's a very old Brit!
>
> --- celtictygress <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Thank you, Erich. Hope you had a very Merry
> > Christmas. And may the New
> > Year bring blessings to all.
> >
> > Janice
> > Boston
> >
> > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, Erich
> > Klinger
> > <Erich.Klinger@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Wishing everyone a Happy Christmas, whatever your
> > > circumstances, I hope your Christmas will be a
> > good
> > > one.
> > >
> > > Happy Christmas.
> > >
> > > Klinger.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I rather suspect they would have claimed loyalty to King and Country,
rather than to any particular administration - least of all one that
was trying to break up the country and force them out.

regards,
Paul

--- paddy221666 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
> you seem to have gone 'dark'.  any reason?
>
> I was waiting to see how you would respond to my last post before
> enlightening you.
>
> the first unionist terror group, founded by the orange order and
> supported massively by protestants living in the NE corner of ireland
> were in fact treasonous to the british crown and people.
>
> I'm constantly amazed at the depth of ignorance within the old orange
> community.
>
> patrick
>
> --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Just so we're quite clear about what you're saying - against
> > which country were they committing treason? Were they traitors
> > to Ireland, or to the British Crown?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I know that you subscribe to the old orange ideology and that you
> > > prefer ignorance to enlightenment but I'll just throw this out
in case
> > >  there is actually anybody else coming here.
> > >
> > > when your old orange ancestors set up a provisional government and
> > > armed a protestant militia, they were in fact committing treason.
> > >
> > > now, do you wish to remain ignorant or do you want to get an
education
> > > in the culture you so fervently defend, in spite of the shame it has
> > > garnered?
> > >
> > > you see, your immoral notions of loyalty do not exempt you from the
> > > laws of the country into which you are born.  even snotty protestant
> > > landowners, industrialists, politicians and clergy are not above the
> > law.
> > >
> > > never were and never will again.
> > >
> > > pps
> > >
> > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. However, none
> > > > of what you wrote explains how it can possibly be
> > > > treason to want to remain part of the state you were
> > > > born in (the UK, in this case).
> > > >
> > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary
> > > > state before the English were invited in.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I wouldn't waste my time trying to furnish you with
> > > > > enough material to overcome your innate ignorance of
> > > > > the history of NI.  you being an old orange, you will
> > > > > have been well brainwashed into avoiding the truth
> > > > > rather than taking an objective look at it.
> > > > >
> > > > > the people of ireland should have been governing the
> > > > > whole country since shortly after 1918 when the people
> > > > > of ireland voted over 75% to determine their own destiny.
> > > > > if it had not been for the religious bigots in the NE
> > > > > corner, and a lot of treasonous help from others, it
> > > > > would have happened as promised.  if there had been
> > > > > no threat of violence from bigoted irish protestants
> > > > > the country could have enjoyed normal society.
> > > > > instead, the bigots filled your heads with fear and
> > > > > loathing that led ultimately to spontaneous sectarian
> > > > > murder on the street of belfast in 1966 that signaled
> > > > > the final demise of the old orange regime.
> > > > >
> > > > > admit it, your old orange culture simply hated people
> > > > > of another Christian faith.  if you admit that, you
> > > > > might feel better about yourself.
> > > > >
> > > > > I see there seems to be only you and me here.
> > > > > I suppose if I stopped posting you'd be happier.
> > > > > that way Alan and his old orange buddies
> > > > > could come here too.
> > > > >
> > > > > pps
> > > > >
> > > > > --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > None of that explains how it can possibly be treason to
> > > > > > want to remain part of the state you were born in (the UK,
> > > > > > in this case).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> > > > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> > > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary state
> > > > > > before the English were invited in.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > Paul
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > it's such a blur of activity here I almost missed your post.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > the inhabitants of ireland were and still are irish.  that
> part
> > > > which
> > > > > > > was partitioned off to remain under the control of england
> > > > became NI.
> > > > > > >  the people there are british subjects.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > the people who caused NI to be created used treason and
> > > blackmail to
> > > > > > > achieve their goal.  they were irish protestants who were
> > consumed
> > > > > > > with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by their
> religious and
> > > > > > > political leaders. it's historic fact.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ireland as a nation held an election in 1918 the result of
> > > which was
> > > > > > > an overwhelming majority of the irish people in favour
of home
> > > rule
> > > > > > > for the island.  this had previously been agreed upon
> > between the
> > > > > > > dublin and london governments and would have been instituted
> > > excpet
> > > > > > > for the intervention of WW1.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > in any election there will be those who voted for the
> > majority and
> > > > > > > those who voted for the minority.  most civilised peoples
> > > understand
> > > > > > > this.  not however the protestant bigots in the NE corner
> of the
> > > > > > > island.  they, like you, seemed to think they had the
right to
> > > deny
> > > > > > > the will of the majority in ireland while at the same time
> > denying
> > > > > > > civil and religious liberty for the minority of
> non-protestants
> > > > in NI
> > > > > > > that were stranded there following the partition of the
> island.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > this of course is the primary trait of an old orange for
they
> > > > ruled in
> > > > > > > this fashion until 1972 when the english realised they had
> > > > handed over
> > > > > > > a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil bigots, most of whom
> > > > supported
> > > > > > > the ideals of the orange order and the biggest bigot of all,
> > > > paisley.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > starting in 1972 the english commenced a program that would
> > > deny the
> > > > > > > old oranges any further opportunities to discriminate
> against UK
> > > > > > > citizens.  this relieved the tremendous embarrassment the
> whole
> > > > affair
> > > > > > > had become for the once proud and might english.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > your old orange credentials have been trotted out enough
times
> > > here
> > > > > > > and has probably caused whatever members there were to
> vacate.
> > > > today,
> > > > > > > most enlightened people would not subscribe to your screwy
> > > > ideas.  the
> > > > > > > old orange culture of NI is not worth defending.  it had no
> > moral
> > > > > > > fibre to hold any argument presented by any old orange -
in or
> > > > out of
> > > > > > > ireland.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > thankfully, today in NI non-protestants have civil and
> religious
> > > > > > > rights equal to any UK citizen.  that wasn't the case under
> > > the old
> > > > > > > oranges.  that's what gets old oranges like you so
depressed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ignoring your abuse, for the moment, I'll just
> > > > > > > > point out that...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The inhabitants of what became Northern Ireland
> > > > > > > > were British subjects, so trying to remain British
> > > > > > > > could hardly be treason.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There was no referendum in Ireland in 1918 on national
> > > > > > > > "self-determination". There was just an election to
> > > > > > > > parliament. It became abundantly clear that views
> > > > > > > > on where their future lay were very different in
> > > > > > > > the North East from those in the South and West.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is no law of the universe that one land mass
> > > > > > > > must be a single state. There are land borders in
> > > > > > > > North America and the main land mass of Scandinavia,
> > > > > > > > to name just two examples. Britain itself has been
> > > > > > > > separate states, and today is a Union of kingdoms.
> > > > > > > > Even Ireland was not a single kingdom in any real
> > > > > > > > sense before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Your other claims have been pre-refuted in this
> > > > > > > > group many times already, so I'll not weary the
> > > > > > > > members with a repetition. Feel free to
> > > > > > > > read the archives for enlightenment!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Finally, I'll paraphrase you: Your tired green
> > > > > > > > argument only works if you subscribe to green
> > > > > > > > principles with respect to democracy and how it
> > > > > > > > should operate :-)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm not pretending anything.  you're an old orange as
> > > > > > demonstrated by
> > > > > > > > > your sympathies and your ignorance.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > my views on the old orange culture you so fervently
> > > support are
> > > > > > widely
> > > > > > > > > held.  it was an abomination of evil and terror.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > NI was founded to appease protestant irish religious
> > > bigots who
> > > > > > > > > happened to form a majority in the 6 counties of ireland
> > they
> > > > > > lovingly
> > > > > > > > > renamed 'ulster'.  they used treason, blackmail and
> > > violence to
> > > > > > force
> > > > > > > > > the partition of the country.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > in 1918 the whole population of the undivided country
> > voted by
> > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > 70% to seek national self determination.  something
> > > hundreds of
> > > > > > > > > thousands of irish men and women fought in WW1 to
> > achieve for
> > > > > > similar
> > > > > > > > > smaller countries elsewhere.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > your tired old orange argument only works if you
subscribe
> > > > to old
> > > > > > > > > orange principles with respect to democracy and how it
> > should
> > > > > > operate.
> > > > > > > > >   only an old orange like yourself could advocate for
> > the will
> > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > minority so long as that minority is protestant.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > the old orange culture you hold so dearly had no respect
> > > for the
> > > > > > > > > catholic minority in NI.  they suppressed them for their
> > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > beliefs and denied them equal civil rights to
protestants.
> > >  this
> > > > > > > > > carried on until 1972 when the situation became so
> > > > > embarrassing for
> > > > > > > > > the english they had to dismantle the whole lot.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > now the whole country of ireland is being governed by
> equals
> > > > > in fair
> > > > > > > > > and democratic elections.  many, many innocent people
> > > would have
> > > > > > lived
> > > > > > > > > longer lives if the bigoted irish protestants who
> forced the
> > > > > > creation
> > > > > > > > > of NI had accepted the will of democracy and developed
> > > civilised
> > > > > > > > > society in normal partnership with their fellow
> citizens who
> > > > just
> > > > > > > > > happened to be believers in another Christian faith.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > fortunately, the days when 'ulster' protestants get what
> > they
> > > > > > want are
> > > > > > > > > over.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > you should do some more reading of NI history and the
> > > bigots who
> > > > > > > > > caused way more trouble than they were worth.  you might
> > give
> > > > > up on
> > > > > > > > > fighting a losing battle.  the old orange days in NI
were
> > > > > > discredited
> > > > > > > > > a long time ago.  you're in a severe minority with your
> > > > > support for
> > > > > > > > > religious discrimination of whatever proportion.  only a
> > > > true old
> > > > > > > > > orange could hold onto an immoral set of values by
> > > claiming that
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > could be worse.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ps still only you and me here.  how's it going over at
> your
> > > > > > other site
> > > > > > > > > - the one you banned me from?  is it the same old
> repetitive
> > > > > > postings
> > > > > > > > > from Alan.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So you're still pretending that disagreeing with
> your just
> > > > > > slightly
> > > > > > > > > > extreme views makes me an "old orange". Since nobody
> > but you
> > > > > knows
> > > > > > > > > > what that means, I'll try not to get too upset :)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Let's try to find some points (rather than mere abuse)
> > > in your
> > > > > > > > > > message, and examine them again.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland was not founded "to divide and
> partition
> > > > > > ireland".
> > > > > > > > > > Ireland was partitioned, and the Irish Free State and
> > > Northern
> > > > > > > Ireland
> > > > > > > > > > were formed BECAUSE Ireland was ALREADY DIVIDED on
> how it
> > > > wanted
> > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > ruled.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You might well have preferred that the million or
so UK
> > > > > > citizens who
> > > > > > > > > > formed the greater number in the north east were
> > > > unceremoniously
> > > > > > > > > > ejected, and forced into a confessional state. Some
> > > Unionists
> > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > > have preferred the several million in the south
and east
> > > to be
> > > > > > > forced
> > > > > > > > > > to stay in the Union with Britain. But it is not
> > possible to
> > > > > give
> > > > > > > > > > everyone what they want.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The settlement was that both communities would be
> > allowed to
> > > > > > express
> > > > > > > > > > their identity, and live in the state to which
they gave
> > > their
> > > > > > > > > > alliegance. Because the Irish people as a whole
did not
> > > have a
> > > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > > > view on how they should be governed, a line was drawn.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'm pleased to see you're not justifying PIRA
> > atrocities as
> > > > > > > such, even
> > > > > > > > > > while you try to absolve them of any actual
> > responsibility.
> > > > > Do you
> > > > > > > > > > believe in some sort of marxist historical
necessity? An
> > > > > > inevitable
> > > > > > > > > > revolution brought about by the contradictions
inherent
> > > in the
> > > > > > > system?
> > > > > > > > > > It's bunk. If people kill, maim, and bomb - THEY
> must take
> > > > > > > > > responsibility.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Your attempt to shift the blame is offensive and
> > > wrong-headed:
> > > > > > > > > > > "your lot started the murderous campaigns and
> > > > > > > > > > > with treason and violence forced a situation..."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You seem to have difficulty reading that I condemned
> > > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > where it occurred in the North - so I'll say it
again.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I. condemn. discrimination. where. it. occurred. in.
> the.
> > > > north.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > To avoid hypocrisy, I'll also condemn it in the South.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You are free to disbelieve me when I point out that
> there
> > > > > was less
> > > > > > > > > > discrimination in the north than you claim (and no
"holy
> > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > war"). Similarly, you can ignore any hint that
> > > discrimination
> > > > > > > happened
> > > > > > > > > > in the south as well. If it makes it easier, you can
> > pretend
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > events in the south were "irrelevant" to the views and
> > > > > actions of
> > > > > > > > > > people in the north. You would still be wrong, though.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Finally, you dismiss the Southern reluctance to act
> > > > against the
> > > > > > > IRA as
> > > > > > > > > > "a grand display of old orange ignorance". Are you
> denying
> > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > southern administration or its members ran guns to
> the IRA
> > > > > > > (Haughey),
> > > > > > > > > > or allowed training camps to operate with impunity in
> > > > > Donegal and
> > > > > > > > > > other border counties, or dragged their feet on
> > extradition,
> > > > > > > sometimes
> > > > > > > > > > refusing outright to make terrorists answer for their
> > crimes
> > > > > in a
> > > > > > > > > > court of law, or refused to allow hot pursuit over the
> > > > > border - to
> > > > > > > > > > such an extent that terrorists could sit safely in the
> > > > > > Republic, and
> > > > > > > > > > remotely detonate bombs against targets in Northern
> > Ireland?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It was not until the atrocities of 9/11 that the
> > > hypocritical
> > > > > > double
> > > > > > > > > > standard of the Irish (and US) government with
regard to
> > > > > > > terrorism in
> > > > > > > > > > Ireland was seriously threatened.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And just because I don't have time to refute all your
> > other
> > > > > > > throw away
> > > > > > > > > > accusations and misleading or selective
> > characterisations of
> > > > > > events,
> > > > > > > > > > don't assume that I agree with the rest of what you
> wrote.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "when it was founded after the south got its
autonomy"
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > it was founded to divide and partition ireland.
> to say
> > > > it had
> > > > > > > > faults
> > > > > > > > > > > is a huge understatement.  NI governments are
> > > characterised
> > > > > > by the
> > > > > > > > > > > bigotry that directed policy.  in my book it was
> an evil
> > > > > period
> > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > the years the old orange bigots controlled NI.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > you're the one hooked on justifying old orange
> actions.
> > > > > I'm not
> > > > > > > > > > > justifying (P)IRA terrorism.  you're just
raising the
> > > > spectre
> > > > > > > of an
> > > > > > > > > > > old orange again.  you're true to form all right.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > your lot started the murderous campaigns and with
> > > > treason and
> > > > > > > > violence
> > > > > > > > > > > forced a situation to develop that encouraged
> > spontaneous
> > > > > > > murder of
> > > > > > > > > > > innocent catholics.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > from the 1920s to 1972, until it was dismantled, NI
> > > > > protestants
> > > > > > > > > > > supported by popular vote the continued religious
> > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > > enacted on their behalf against fellow UK citizens.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > the actions of the (P)IRA during the war were
> > harnessed by
> > > > > > the old
> > > > > > > > > > > oranges to their harsh treatment of fellow citizens.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > looks to me like you only see republicans as
evil.  I
> > > don't
> > > > > > > disagree
> > > > > > > > > > > with you on that.  the problem though is every
time I
> > > expose
> > > > > > > some of
> > > > > > > > > > > the evil that was unionist politics or terrorism
> you go
> > > > > > ape-shit.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "or the Southern reluctance to act against the IRA."
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > a grand display of old orange ignorance.  you
> really do
> > > > > need to
> > > > > > > > read a
> > > > > > > > > > > bit more.  the forum looks a bit neglected.  there
> only
> > > > seems
> > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > the two of us.  I hope things improve before you ban
> > > me from
> > > > > > > > here too.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Of course there were faults with the Northern
Irish
> > > > > government
> > > > > > > > > between
> > > > > > > > > > > > the 1920s, when it was founded after the south
> got its
> > > > > > > > autonomy, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > 1972, when it was taken over by Westminster -
> > > > > particularly if
> > > > > > > > we are
> > > > > > > > > > > > judging by the standards of today.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > But it is a travesty to pretend that such
faults as
> > > > > there were
> > > > > > > > > in any
> > > > > > > > > > > > way justified, much less forced, the IRA's
murderous
> > > > > > campaign to
> > > > > > > > > > > > undermine the wishes of the greater number of
> Northern
> > > > > > Ireland's
> > > > > > > > > > > > citizens to live at peace in the Union.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > It would be an equal travesty to maintain that
> > southern
> > > > > > > > > collusion with
> > > > > > > > > > > > the IRA, or such institutional sectarianism as
> existed
> > > > > in the
> > > > > > > > > southern
> > > > > > > > > > > > state, justified the loyalist bombings there. That
> > > > could not
> > > > > > > > even be
> > > > > > > > > > > > justified by IRA atrocities in the North, or the
> > > Southern
> > > > > > > > reluctance
> > > > > > > > > > > > to act against the IRA.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you somehow conceive that these views make
me an
> > > > > > > apologist for
> > > > > > > > > > > > bigotry, that is your right and privilege. It's
> still
> > > > > > > tendentious
> > > > > > > > > > > > nonsense though, and you really shouldn't assume
> > that I
> > > > > agree.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Your monomaniacal insistence that all the evils
> of the
> > > > past
> > > > > > > > century
> > > > > > > > > > > > can be laid at the door of the community of
> which you
> > > > > are not
> > > > > > > > a part
> > > > > > > > > > > > seems like a self-serving rationalisation, wilful
> > > > > > blindness, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > smacks not a little of the type of bigotry you
> see in
> > > > > everyone
> > > > > > > > else.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Do you have any ideas on peacemaking beyond
> > getting all
> > > > > > > > > protestants to
> > > > > > > > > > > > wear sackcloth and ashes for ever?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you picked the title, not me.  you define it,
> > not me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > as for useful discussion, I'm at a loss.  you
> hardly
> > > > > > ever come
> > > > > > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and when you do it's mostly to chastise me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the old orange regime was terrible.  it was
> morally
> > > > > > > bankrupt and
> > > > > > > > > > evil
> > > > > > > > > > > > > but was kept alive too long.  it eventually got
> > NI its
> > > > > > recent
> > > > > > > > > war.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that's what happens when morally bankrupt
regimes
> > > exist.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not impressed with your observation
since you
> > > exist
> > > > > > within
> > > > > > > > > > an old
> > > > > > > > > > > > > orange bubble that hasn't burst yet.  this is
> > what is
> > > > > > still a
> > > > > > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > > > > > > > in NI.  too many brain-washed and ignorant old
> > > oranges.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Patrick asks "why not". If someone sincerely
> > > > > believes that
> > > > > > > > > > "Peace in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland" is the same as "why one side
> > > is are
> > > > > > not to
> > > > > > > > > > > blame at
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > all, and the other lot caused it all", then it
> > > is hard
> > > > > > > to see
> > > > > > > > > > he or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > she could join in any useful discussion of
> peace,
> > > > beyond
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > kind of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > futile "'aren't "they" terrible', mutual
> > > back-slapping
> > > > > > > circle.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for using the phrase "the accepted
opinion of
> > > many
> > > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > people" to bolster his personal interpretation
> > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > conflict, I'll
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > point out that the consensus among reasonable
> > > > > observers is
> > > > > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "war" in Northern Ireland was political,
> > rather than
> > > > > > > > > > religious. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > situation was clearly inflamed by ethnic
> > > tensions, but
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > was no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > religious war as such. As opposed to the 16th
> > > century,
> > > > > > > > > nobody was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > killed over their views on, say,
> > > > transubstantiation. The
> > > > > > > > > > > minority who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > tried periodically throughout the 20th
> century to
> > > > > > > overturn the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > settlement reached in the 1920s were fighting
> > about
> > > > > > > > politics and
> > > > > > > > > > > land.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those who opposed them were defending their
> > > > > > government, and
> > > > > > > > > > > resisting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > encroachment by what at the time was a
> > > > backward-looking,
> > > > > > > > > > > impoverished,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and censorious state.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Things have moved on, fortunately. Citizens on
> > both
> > > > > sides
> > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > border are better off. And practically
nobody is
> > > > > trying to
> > > > > > > > > impose
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > their will by murder and bombing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, if we can mop up the remaining thugs as
> they
> > > > try to
> > > > > > > hold
> > > > > > > > > > on to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > their power by organising crime empires,
and if
> > > we can
> > > > > > > > > improve the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > democracy of the structures of government, and
> > avoid
> > > > > > > > losing our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > hard-won freedoms to inflated hysteria over
> > > "Islamic"
> > > > > > > > terrorism
> > > > > > > > > > > (or US
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "imperialism"), if we can address factors that
> > > > > threaten us
> > > > > > > > > > all, like
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > institutional global inequalities and global
> > > warming,
> > > > > > > > things may
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > continue to improve.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why not Paul?  if you spent some time here
> > we just
> > > > > > > might get
> > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > debate but you seem reluctant to
challenge the
> > > > > accepted
> > > > > > > > > > opinion of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > many reasonable people that if the old
> > oranges of
> > > > > NI (of
> > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are still toooooo many) had dropped their
> > > > > religious war
> > > > > > > > on RCs
> > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would have been no war recently.  if
ignorant
> > > bigots
> > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > > paisley
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hadn't aroused ancient hatreds among his
> > sect they
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > have been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > more satisfied now than they are having
> lost the
> > > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > > battle.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In
peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm off on holidays. Feel free to discuss
> > > > "peace in
> > > > > > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > while I'm out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note to Patrick - that is not NECESSARILY
> > > the same
> > > > > > > as "why
> > > > > > > > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the fault of the other side".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Anyone is allowed here - so long as they can discuss the topic
civilly. After all, if there is going to be peace, there has to be
peace with Brits and Britophiles too (is that supposed to sound
slightly dodgy?  Are you sure you didn't mean Anglophile?)

regards,

Paul

--- xavier black <xaviery2002@...> wrote:
>
> What is this britophile doing on this list! She's not
> only an old orange she's a very old Brit!
>
> --- celtictygress <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you, Erich. Hope you had a very Merry
> > Christmas. And may the New
> > Year bring blessings to all.
> >
> > Janice
> > Boston
> >
> > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, Erich
> > Klinger
> > <Erich.Klinger@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Wishing everyone a Happy Christmas, whatever your
> > > circumstances, I hope your Christmas will be a
> > good
> > > one.
> > >
> > > Happy Christmas.
> > >
> > > Klinger.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peaceinnorthernireland/
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peaceinnorthernireland/join
> >     (Yahoo! ID required)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> mailto:peaceinnorthernireland-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > peaceinnorthernireland-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>

What is this britophile doing on this list! She's not
only an old orange she's a very old Brit!

--- celtictygress <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> Thank you, Erich. Hope you had a very Merry
> Christmas. And may the New
> Year bring blessings to all.
>
> Janice
> Boston
>
> --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, Erich
> Klinger
> <Erich.Klinger@...> wrote:
> >
> > Wishing everyone a Happy Christmas, whatever your
> > circumstances, I hope your Christmas will be a
> good
> > one.
> >
> > Happy Christmas.
> >
> > Klinger.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peaceinnorthernireland/
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peaceinnorthernireland/join
>     (Yahoo! ID required)
>
>
>
>
mailto:peaceinnorthernireland-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
> peaceinnorthernireland-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>



      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

I think the NI catholic community is the chief benefactor out of all
this.  it's been punishing for the protestant community.  catholics
have been more successful in accessing the funds available for those
portions of the GFA that are monetary in nature.  protestants are now
being forced to consider emmigrating to countries on the european
continent.  many continue to shun the ROI where significant wealth has
been generated in recent years.

pps


--- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, Erich Klinger
<Erich.Klinger@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Apparently, there is twice the people at Stormont
> governing Northern Ireland as there are in No 10
> Downing Street governing the whole of the UK. Which
> community is the better off.
>
> Klinger.
>

Apparently, there is twice the people at Stormont
governing Northern Ireland as there are in No 10
Downing Street governing the whole of the UK. Which
community is the better off.

Klinger.

Paul,

you seem to have gone 'dark'.  any reason?

I was waiting to see how you would respond to my last post before
enlightening you.

the first unionist terror group, founded by the orange order and
supported massively by protestants living in the NE corner of ireland
were in fact treasonous to the british crown and people.

I'm constantly amazed at the depth of ignorance within the old orange
community.

patrick

--- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Just so we're quite clear about what you're saying - against
> which country were they committing treason? Were they traitors
> to Ireland, or to the British Crown?
>
> Paul
>
>
> --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > I know that you subscribe to the old orange ideology and that you
> > prefer ignorance to enlightenment but I'll just throw this out in case
> >  there is actually anybody else coming here.
> >
> > when your old orange ancestors set up a provisional government and
> > armed a protestant militia, they were in fact committing treason.
> >
> > now, do you wish to remain ignorant or do you want to get an education
> > in the culture you so fervently defend, in spite of the shame it has
> > garnered?
> >
> > you see, your immoral notions of loyalty do not exempt you from the
> > laws of the country into which you are born.  even snotty protestant
> > landowners, industrialists, politicians and clergy are not above the
> law.
> >
> > never were and never will again.
> >
> > pps
> >
> > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. However, none
> > > of what you wrote explains how it can possibly be
> > > treason to want to remain part of the state you were
> > > born in (the UK, in this case).
> > >
> > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary
> > > state before the English were invited in.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I wouldn't waste my time trying to furnish you with
> > > > enough material to overcome your innate ignorance of
> > > > the history of NI.  you being an old orange, you will
> > > > have been well brainwashed into avoiding the truth
> > > > rather than taking an objective look at it.
> > > >
> > > > the people of ireland should have been governing the
> > > > whole country since shortly after 1918 when the people
> > > > of ireland voted over 75% to determine their own destiny.
> > > > if it had not been for the religious bigots in the NE
> > > > corner, and a lot of treasonous help from others, it
> > > > would have happened as promised.  if there had been
> > > > no threat of violence from bigoted irish protestants
> > > > the country could have enjoyed normal society.
> > > > instead, the bigots filled your heads with fear and
> > > > loathing that led ultimately to spontaneous sectarian
> > > > murder on the street of belfast in 1966 that signaled
> > > > the final demise of the old orange regime.
> > > >
> > > > admit it, your old orange culture simply hated people
> > > > of another Christian faith.  if you admit that, you
> > > > might feel better about yourself.
> > > >
> > > > I see there seems to be only you and me here.
> > > > I suppose if I stopped posting you'd be happier.
> > > > that way Alan and his old orange buddies
> > > > could come here too.
> > > >
> > > > pps
> > > >
> > > > --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > None of that explains how it can possibly be treason to
> > > > > want to remain part of the state you were born in (the UK,
> > > > > in this case).
> > > > >
> > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> > > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary state
> > > > > before the English were invited in.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards,
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > it's such a blur of activity here I almost missed your post.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the inhabitants of ireland were and still are irish.  that
part
> > > which
> > > > > > was partitioned off to remain under the control of england
> > > became NI.
> > > > > >  the people there are british subjects.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the people who caused NI to be created used treason and
> > blackmail to
> > > > > > achieve their goal.  they were irish protestants who were
> consumed
> > > > > > with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by their
religious and
> > > > > > political leaders. it's historic fact.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ireland as a nation held an election in 1918 the result of
> > which was
> > > > > > an overwhelming majority of the irish people in favour of home
> > rule
> > > > > > for the island.  this had previously been agreed upon
> between the
> > > > > > dublin and london governments and would have been instituted
> > excpet
> > > > > > for the intervention of WW1.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > in any election there will be those who voted for the
> majority and
> > > > > > those who voted for the minority.  most civilised peoples
> > understand
> > > > > > this.  not however the protestant bigots in the NE corner
of the
> > > > > > island.  they, like you, seemed to think they had the right to
> > deny
> > > > > > the will of the majority in ireland while at the same time
> denying
> > > > > > civil and religious liberty for the minority of
non-protestants
> > > in NI
> > > > > > that were stranded there following the partition of the
island.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > this of course is the primary trait of an old orange for they
> > > ruled in
> > > > > > this fashion until 1972 when the english realised they had
> > > handed over
> > > > > > a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil bigots, most of whom
> > > supported
> > > > > > the ideals of the orange order and the biggest bigot of all,
> > > paisley.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > starting in 1972 the english commenced a program that would
> > deny the
> > > > > > old oranges any further opportunities to discriminate
against UK
> > > > > > citizens.  this relieved the tremendous embarrassment the
whole
> > > affair
> > > > > > had become for the once proud and might english.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > your old orange credentials have been trotted out enough times
> > here
> > > > > > and has probably caused whatever members there were to
vacate.
> > > today,
> > > > > > most enlightened people would not subscribe to your screwy
> > > ideas.  the
> > > > > > old orange culture of NI is not worth defending.  it had no
> moral
> > > > > > fibre to hold any argument presented by any old orange - in or
> > > out of
> > > > > > ireland.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > thankfully, today in NI non-protestants have civil and
religious
> > > > > > rights equal to any UK citizen.  that wasn't the case under
> > the old
> > > > > > oranges.  that's what gets old oranges like you so depressed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > pps
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ignoring your abuse, for the moment, I'll just
> > > > > > > point out that...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The inhabitants of what became Northern Ireland
> > > > > > > were British subjects, so trying to remain British
> > > > > > > could hardly be treason.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There was no referendum in Ireland in 1918 on national
> > > > > > > "self-determination". There was just an election to
> > > > > > > parliament. It became abundantly clear that views
> > > > > > > on where their future lay were very different in
> > > > > > > the North East from those in the South and West.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is no law of the universe that one land mass
> > > > > > > must be a single state. There are land borders in
> > > > > > > North America and the main land mass of Scandinavia,
> > > > > > > to name just two examples. Britain itself has been
> > > > > > > separate states, and today is a Union of kingdoms.
> > > > > > > Even Ireland was not a single kingdom in any real
> > > > > > > sense before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your other claims have been pre-refuted in this
> > > > > > > group many times already, so I'll not weary the
> > > > > > > members with a repetition. Feel free to
> > > > > > > read the archives for enlightenment!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Finally, I'll paraphrase you: Your tired green
> > > > > > > argument only works if you subscribe to green
> > > > > > > principles with respect to democracy and how it
> > > > > > > should operate :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm not pretending anything.  you're an old orange as
> > > > > demonstrated by
> > > > > > > > your sympathies and your ignorance.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > my views on the old orange culture you so fervently
> > support are
> > > > > widely
> > > > > > > > held.  it was an abomination of evil and terror.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > NI was founded to appease protestant irish religious
> > bigots who
> > > > > > > > happened to form a majority in the 6 counties of ireland
> they
> > > > > lovingly
> > > > > > > > renamed 'ulster'.  they used treason, blackmail and
> > violence to
> > > > > force
> > > > > > > > the partition of the country.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > in 1918 the whole population of the undivided country
> voted by
> > > > over
> > > > > > > > 70% to seek national self determination.  something
> > hundreds of
> > > > > > > > thousands of irish men and women fought in WW1 to
> achieve for
> > > > > similar
> > > > > > > > smaller countries elsewhere.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > your tired old orange argument only works if you subscribe
> > > to old
> > > > > > > > orange principles with respect to democracy and how it
> should
> > > > > operate.
> > > > > > > >   only an old orange like yourself could advocate for
> the will
> > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > minority so long as that minority is protestant.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > the old orange culture you hold so dearly had no respect
> > for the
> > > > > > > > catholic minority in NI.  they suppressed them for their
> > > religious
> > > > > > > > beliefs and denied them equal civil rights to protestants.
> >  this
> > > > > > > > carried on until 1972 when the situation became so
> > > > embarrassing for
> > > > > > > > the english they had to dismantle the whole lot.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > now the whole country of ireland is being governed by
equals
> > > > in fair
> > > > > > > > and democratic elections.  many, many innocent people
> > would have
> > > > > lived
> > > > > > > > longer lives if the bigoted irish protestants who
forced the
> > > > > creation
> > > > > > > > of NI had accepted the will of democracy and developed
> > civilised
> > > > > > > > society in normal partnership with their fellow
citizens who
> > > just
> > > > > > > > happened to be believers in another Christian faith.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > fortunately, the days when 'ulster' protestants get what
> they
> > > > > want are
> > > > > > > > over.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > you should do some more reading of NI history and the
> > bigots who
> > > > > > > > caused way more trouble than they were worth.  you might
> give
> > > > up on
> > > > > > > > fighting a losing battle.  the old orange days in NI were
> > > > > discredited
> > > > > > > > a long time ago.  you're in a severe minority with your
> > > > support for
> > > > > > > > religious discrimination of whatever proportion.  only a
> > > true old
> > > > > > > > orange could hold onto an immoral set of values by
> > claiming that
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > could be worse.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ps still only you and me here.  how's it going over at
your
> > > > > other site
> > > > > > > > - the one you banned me from?  is it the same old
repetitive
> > > > > postings
> > > > > > > > from Alan.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So you're still pretending that disagreeing with
your just
> > > > > slightly
> > > > > > > > > extreme views makes me an "old orange". Since nobody
> but you
> > > > knows
> > > > > > > > > what that means, I'll try not to get too upset :)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Let's try to find some points (rather than mere abuse)
> > in your
> > > > > > > > > message, and examine them again.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland was not founded "to divide and
partition
> > > > > ireland".
> > > > > > > > > Ireland was partitioned, and the Irish Free State and
> > Northern
> > > > > > Ireland
> > > > > > > > > were formed BECAUSE Ireland was ALREADY DIVIDED on
how it
> > > wanted
> > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > ruled.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You might well have preferred that the million or so UK
> > > > > citizens who
> > > > > > > > > formed the greater number in the north east were
> > > unceremoniously
> > > > > > > > > ejected, and forced into a confessional state. Some
> > Unionists
> > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > have preferred the several million in the south and east
> > to be
> > > > > > forced
> > > > > > > > > to stay in the Union with Britain. But it is not
> possible to
> > > > give
> > > > > > > > > everyone what they want.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The settlement was that both communities would be
> allowed to
> > > > > express
> > > > > > > > > their identity, and live in the state to which they gave
> > their
> > > > > > > > > alliegance. Because the Irish people as a whole did not
> > have a
> > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > > view on how they should be governed, a line was drawn.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm pleased to see you're not justifying PIRA
> atrocities as
> > > > > > such, even
> > > > > > > > > while you try to absolve them of any actual
> responsibility.
> > > > Do you
> > > > > > > > > believe in some sort of marxist historical necessity? An
> > > > > inevitable
> > > > > > > > > revolution brought about by the contradictions inherent
> > in the
> > > > > > system?
> > > > > > > > > It's bunk. If people kill, maim, and bomb - THEY
must take
> > > > > > > > responsibility.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Your attempt to shift the blame is offensive and
> > wrong-headed:
> > > > > > > > > > "your lot started the murderous campaigns and
> > > > > > > > > > with treason and violence forced a situation..."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You seem to have difficulty reading that I condemned
> > > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > where it occurred in the North - so I'll say it again.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I. condemn. discrimination. where. it. occurred. in.
the.
> > > north.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > To avoid hypocrisy, I'll also condemn it in the South.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You are free to disbelieve me when I point out that
there
> > > > was less
> > > > > > > > > discrimination in the north than you claim (and no "holy
> > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > war"). Similarly, you can ignore any hint that
> > discrimination
> > > > > > happened
> > > > > > > > > in the south as well. If it makes it easier, you can
> pretend
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > > events in the south were "irrelevant" to the views and
> > > > actions of
> > > > > > > > > people in the north. You would still be wrong, though.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Finally, you dismiss the Southern reluctance to act
> > > against the
> > > > > > IRA as
> > > > > > > > > "a grand display of old orange ignorance". Are you
denying
> > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > southern administration or its members ran guns to
the IRA
> > > > > > (Haughey),
> > > > > > > > > or allowed training camps to operate with impunity in
> > > > Donegal and
> > > > > > > > > other border counties, or dragged their feet on
> extradition,
> > > > > > sometimes
> > > > > > > > > refusing outright to make terrorists answer for their
> crimes
> > > > in a
> > > > > > > > > court of law, or refused to allow hot pursuit over the
> > > > border - to
> > > > > > > > > such an extent that terrorists could sit safely in the
> > > > > Republic, and
> > > > > > > > > remotely detonate bombs against targets in Northern
> Ireland?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It was not until the atrocities of 9/11 that the
> > hypocritical
> > > > > double
> > > > > > > > > standard of the Irish (and US) government with regard to
> > > > > > terrorism in
> > > > > > > > > Ireland was seriously threatened.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And just because I don't have time to refute all your
> other
> > > > > > throw away
> > > > > > > > > accusations and misleading or selective
> characterisations of
> > > > > events,
> > > > > > > > > don't assume that I agree with the rest of what you
wrote.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "when it was founded after the south got its autonomy"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > it was founded to divide and partition ireland.
to say
> > > it had
> > > > > > > faults
> > > > > > > > > > is a huge understatement.  NI governments are
> > characterised
> > > > > by the
> > > > > > > > > > bigotry that directed policy.  in my book it was
an evil
> > > > period
> > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > the years the old orange bigots controlled NI.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > you're the one hooked on justifying old orange
actions.
> > > > I'm not
> > > > > > > > > > justifying (P)IRA terrorism.  you're just raising the
> > > spectre
> > > > > > of an
> > > > > > > > > > old orange again.  you're true to form all right.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > your lot started the murderous campaigns and with
> > > treason and
> > > > > > > violence
> > > > > > > > > > forced a situation to develop that encouraged
> spontaneous
> > > > > > murder of
> > > > > > > > > > innocent catholics.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > from the 1920s to 1972, until it was dismantled, NI
> > > > protestants
> > > > > > > > > > supported by popular vote the continued religious
> > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > > enacted on their behalf against fellow UK citizens.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > the actions of the (P)IRA during the war were
> harnessed by
> > > > > the old
> > > > > > > > > > oranges to their harsh treatment of fellow citizens.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > looks to me like you only see republicans as evil.  I
> > don't
> > > > > > disagree
> > > > > > > > > > with you on that.  the problem though is every time I
> > expose
> > > > > > some of
> > > > > > > > > > the evil that was unionist politics or terrorism
you go
> > > > > ape-shit.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "or the Southern reluctance to act against the IRA."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > a grand display of old orange ignorance.  you
really do
> > > > need to
> > > > > > > read a
> > > > > > > > > > bit more.  the forum looks a bit neglected.  there
only
> > > seems
> > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > the two of us.  I hope things improve before you ban
> > me from
> > > > > > > here too.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Of course there were faults with the Northern Irish
> > > > government
> > > > > > > > between
> > > > > > > > > > > the 1920s, when it was founded after the south
got its
> > > > > > > autonomy, and
> > > > > > > > > > > 1972, when it was taken over by Westminster -
> > > > particularly if
> > > > > > > we are
> > > > > > > > > > > judging by the standards of today.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > But it is a travesty to pretend that such faults as
> > > > there were
> > > > > > > > in any
> > > > > > > > > > > way justified, much less forced, the IRA's murderous
> > > > > campaign to
> > > > > > > > > > > undermine the wishes of the greater number of
Northern
> > > > > Ireland's
> > > > > > > > > > > citizens to live at peace in the Union.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > It would be an equal travesty to maintain that
> southern
> > > > > > > > collusion with
> > > > > > > > > > > the IRA, or such institutional sectarianism as
existed
> > > > in the
> > > > > > > > southern
> > > > > > > > > > > state, justified the loyalist bombings there. That
> > > could not
> > > > > > > even be
> > > > > > > > > > > justified by IRA atrocities in the North, or the
> > Southern
> > > > > > > reluctance
> > > > > > > > > > > to act against the IRA.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you somehow conceive that these views make me an
> > > > > > apologist for
> > > > > > > > > > > bigotry, that is your right and privilege. It's
still
> > > > > > tendentious
> > > > > > > > > > > nonsense though, and you really shouldn't assume
> that I
> > > > agree.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Your monomaniacal insistence that all the evils
of the
> > > past
> > > > > > > century
> > > > > > > > > > > can be laid at the door of the community of
which you
> > > > are not
> > > > > > > a part
> > > > > > > > > > > seems like a self-serving rationalisation, wilful
> > > > > blindness, and
> > > > > > > > > > > smacks not a little of the type of bigotry you
see in
> > > > everyone
> > > > > > > else.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Do you have any ideas on peacemaking beyond
> getting all
> > > > > > > > protestants to
> > > > > > > > > > > wear sackcloth and ashes for ever?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > you picked the title, not me.  you define it,
> not me.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > as for useful discussion, I'm at a loss.  you
hardly
> > > > > ever come
> > > > > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > > > > and when you do it's mostly to chastise me.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > the old orange regime was terrible.  it was
morally
> > > > > > bankrupt and
> > > > > > > > > evil
> > > > > > > > > > > > but was kept alive too long.  it eventually got
> NI its
> > > > > recent
> > > > > > > > war.
> > > > > > > > > > > > that's what happens when morally bankrupt regimes
> > exist.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not impressed with your observation since you
> > exist
> > > > > within
> > > > > > > > > an old
> > > > > > > > > > > > orange bubble that hasn't burst yet.  this is
> what is
> > > > > still a
> > > > > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > > > > > > in NI.  too many brain-washed and ignorant old
> > oranges.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >  --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Patrick asks "why not". If someone sincerely
> > > > believes that
> > > > > > > > > "Peace in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland" is the same as "why one side
> > is are
> > > > > not to
> > > > > > > > > > blame at
> > > > > > > > > > > > > all, and the other lot caused it all", then it
> > is hard
> > > > > > to see
> > > > > > > > > he or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > she could join in any useful discussion of
peace,
> > > beyond
> > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > kind of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > futile "'aren't "they" terrible', mutual
> > back-slapping
> > > > > > circle.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > As for using the phrase "the accepted opinion of
> > many
> > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > people" to bolster his personal interpretation
> > of the
> > > > > > > > > conflict, I'll
> > > > > > > > > > > > > point out that the consensus among reasonable
> > > > observers is
> > > > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "war" in Northern Ireland was political,
> rather than
> > > > > > > > > religious. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > situation was clearly inflamed by ethnic
> > tensions, but
> > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > was no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > religious war as such. As opposed to the 16th
> > century,
> > > > > > > > nobody was
> > > > > > > > > > > > > killed over their views on, say,
> > > transubstantiation. The
> > > > > > > > > > minority who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > tried periodically throughout the 20th
century to
> > > > > > overturn the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > settlement reached in the 1920s were fighting
> about
> > > > > > > politics and
> > > > > > > > > > land.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Those who opposed them were defending their
> > > > > government, and
> > > > > > > > > > resisting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > encroachment by what at the time was a
> > > backward-looking,
> > > > > > > > > > impoverished,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and censorious state.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Things have moved on, fortunately. Citizens on
> both
> > > > sides
> > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > border are better off. And practically nobody is
> > > > trying to
> > > > > > > > impose
> > > > > > > > > > > > > their will by murder and bombing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, if we can mop up the remaining thugs as
they
> > > try to
> > > > > > hold
> > > > > > > > > on to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > their power by organising crime empires, and if
> > we can
> > > > > > > > improve the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > democracy of the structures of government, and
> avoid
> > > > > > > losing our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > hard-won freedoms to inflated hysteria over
> > "Islamic"
> > > > > > > terrorism
> > > > > > > > > > (or US
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "imperialism"), if we can address factors that
> > > > threaten us
> > > > > > > > > all, like
> > > > > > > > > > > > > institutional global inequalities and global
> > warming,
> > > > > > > things may
> > > > > > > > > > > > > continue to improve.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > why not Paul?  if you spent some time here
> we just
> > > > > > might get
> > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > debate but you seem reluctant to challenge the
> > > > accepted
> > > > > > > > > opinion of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > many reasonable people that if the old
> oranges of
> > > > NI (of
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > are still toooooo many) had dropped their
> > > > religious war
> > > > > > > on RCs
> > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > would have been no war recently.  if ignorant
> > bigots
> > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > paisley
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > hadn't aroused ancient hatreds among his
> sect they
> > > > would
> > > > > > > > > have been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > more satisfied now than they are having
lost the
> > > > > religious
> > > > > > > > > battle.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm off on holidays. Feel free to discuss
> > > "peace in
> > > > > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ireland"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > while I'm out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note to Patrick - that is not NECESSARILY
> > the same
> > > > > > as "why
> > > > > > > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the fault of the other side".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Thank you, Erich. Hope you had a very Merry Christmas. And may the New
Year bring blessings to all.

Janice
Boston

--- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, Erich Klinger
<Erich.Klinger@...> wrote:
>
> Wishing everyone a Happy Christmas, whatever your
> circumstances, I hope your Christmas will be a good
> one.
>
> Happy Christmas.
>
> Klinger.
>

Wishing everyone a Happy Christmas, whatever your
circumstances, I hope your Christmas will be a good
one.

Happy Christmas.

Klinger.

is it because this member is an orange man that you tolerate his
name calling?  I'm not surprised at your preference for a member of
the orange order.  (notice how I try not to stoop to old orange
tactics)

I suppose some of my posts are ideology.  I have no idea how many
other people share my views on the damage done to NI by the orange
order?  but, that won't stop me presenting the historical record and
the truth as accurately as possible, without bias.

there is no denying the impact of the bigotry and hatred fostered by
the orange order during the period immediately before, during and
after they had influence over NI policy.

I'd be glad to continue this discussion in a civil manner but if
somebody refers to me as "paddy", I'll refer to them as I see fit.

this fellow hasn't much of a clue about NI, but he is a proud orange
man.  he knows nothing of my "life", yet he is comfortable with
throwing a disrespectful comment my way.  apparently, he doesn't
think much of somebody who doesn't like the orange order.

patrick

--- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Name calling is NOT going to demonstrate the superiority
> of your ideology, Patrick. Civility and all, please?
>
> Paul
>
>
> --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > "Get a life Paddy."
> >
> > typical old orange response.  it didn't take long for Sooty to
show
> > his true colours and ignorance.
> >
> > I find that with the old oranges.  (an epithet that fits all)
they
> > pretend to be this, that and the other and underneath it all is a
> > hatred that bursts out like spontaneous murder.
> >
> > it comes from a life of vulgarity, disrespect and violence.
makes you
> > wonder if their mothers didn't teach them any manners.
> >
> > pps
> >
> > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, xavier black
> > <xaviery2002@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Old orange? Do you spew this stupid epitaph on every
> > > list you're on? Get a life Paddy.
> > >
> > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I know that you subscribe to the old orange ideology
> > > > and that you
> > > > prefer ignorance to enlightenment but I'll just
> > > > throw this out in case
> > > >  there is actually anybody else coming here.
> > > >
> > > > when your old orange ancestors set up a provisional
> > > > government and
> > > > armed a protestant militia, they were in fact
> > > > committing treason.
> > > >
> > > > now, do you wish to remain ignorant or do you want
> > > > to get an education
> > > > in the culture you so fervently defend, in spite of
> > > > the shame it has
> > > > garnered?
> > > >
> > > > you see, your immoral notions of loyalty do not
> > > > exempt you from the
> > > > laws of the country into which you are born.  even
> > > > snotty protestant
> > > > landowners, industrialists, politicians and clergy
> > > > are not above the law.
> > > >
> > > > never were and never will again.
> > > >
> > > > pps
> > > >
> > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > notmyopinion
> > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. However,
> > > > none
> > > > > of what you wrote explains how it can possibly be
> > > > > treason to want to remain part of the state you
> > > > were
> > > > > born in (the UK, in this case).
> > > > >
> > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of
> > > > stone
> > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of
> > > > Ireland
> > > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or
> > > > why the
> > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a
> > > > unitary
> > > > > state before the English were invited in.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards,
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wouldn't waste my time trying to furnish you
> > > > with
> > > > > > enough material to overcome your innate
> > > > ignorance of
> > > > > > the history of NI.  you being an old orange, you
> > > > will
> > > > > > have been well brainwashed into avoiding the
> > > > truth
> > > > > > rather than taking an objective look at it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the people of ireland should have been governing
> > > > the
> > > > > > whole country since shortly after 1918 when the
> > > > people
> > > > > > of ireland voted over 75% to determine their own
> > > > destiny.
> > > > > > if it had not been for the religious bigots in
> > > > the NE
> > > > > > corner, and a lot of treasonous help from
> > > > others, it
> > > > > > would have happened as promised.  if there had
> > > > been
> > > > > > no threat of violence from bigoted irish
> > > > protestants
> > > > > > the country could have enjoyed normal society.
> > > > > > instead, the bigots filled your heads with fear
> > > > and
> > > > > > loathing that led ultimately to spontaneous
> > > > sectarian
> > > > > > murder on the street of belfast in 1966 that
> > > > signaled
> > > > > > the final demise of the old orange regime.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > admit it, your old orange culture simply hated
> > > > people
> > > > > > of another Christian faith.  if you admit that,
> > > > you
> > > > > > might feel better about yourself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I see there seems to be only you and me here.
> > > > > > I suppose if I stopped posting you'd be happier.
> > > >
> > > > > > that way Alan and his old orange buddies
> > > > > > could come here too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > pps
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > None of that explains how it can possibly be
> > > > treason to
> > > > > > > want to remain part of the state you were born
> > > > in (the UK,
> > > > > > > in this case).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets
> > > > of stone
> > > > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity
> > > > of Ireland
> > > > > > > must be governed as a single political entity.
> > > > Or why the
> > > > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a
> > > > unitary state
> > > > > > > before the English were invited in.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > it's such a blur of activity here I almost
> > > > missed your post.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > the inhabitants of ireland were and still
> > > > are irish.  that part
> > > > > which
> > > > > > > > was partitioned off to remain under the
> > > > control of england
> > > > > became NI.
> > > > > > > >  the people there are british subjects.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > the people who caused NI to be created used
> > > > treason and
> > > > blackmail to
> > > > > > > > achieve their goal.  they were irish
> > > > protestants who were consumed
> > > > > > > > with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by
> > > > their religious and
> > > > > > > > political leaders. it's historic fact.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ireland as a nation held an election in 1918
> > > > the result of
> > > > which was
> > > > > > > > an overwhelming majority of the irish people
> > > > in favour of home
> > > > rule
> > > > > > > > for the island.  this had previously been
> > > > agreed upon between the
> > > > > > > > dublin and london governments and would have
> > > > been instituted
> > > > excpet
> > > > > > > > for the intervention of WW1.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > in any election there will be those who
> > > > voted for the majority and
> > > > > > > > those who voted for the minority.  most
> > > > civilised peoples
> > > > understand
> > > > > > > > this.  not however the protestant bigots in
> > > > the NE corner of the
> > > > > > > > island.  they, like you, seemed to think
> > > > they had the right to
> > > > deny
> > > > > > > > the will of the majority in ireland while at
> > > > the same time denying
> > > > > > > > civil and religious liberty for the minority
> > > > of non-protestants
> > > > > in NI
> > > > > > > > that were stranded there following the
> > > > partition of the island.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > this of course is the primary trait of an
> > > > old orange for they
> > > > > ruled in
> > > > > > > > this fashion until 1972 when the english
> > > > realised they had
> > > > > handed over
> > > > > > > > a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil
> > > > bigots, most of whom
> > > > > supported
> > > > > > > > the ideals of the orange order and the
> > > > biggest bigot of all,
> > > > > paisley.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > starting in 1972 the english commenced a
> > > > program that would
> > > > deny the
> > > > > > > > old oranges any further opportunities to
> > > > discriminate against UK
> > > > > > > > citizens.  this relieved the tremendous
> > > > embarrassment the whole
> > > > > affair
> > > > > > > > had become for the once proud and might
> > > > english.
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > === message truncated ===
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
_____________________________________________________________________
_______________
> > > Be a better sports nut!  Let your teams follow you
> > > with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
> > http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
> > >
> >
>

Just so we're quite clear about what you're saying - against
which country were they committing treason? Were they traitors
to Ireland, or to the British Crown?

Paul


--- paddy221666 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I know that you subscribe to the old orange ideology and that you
> prefer ignorance to enlightenment but I'll just throw this out in case
>  there is actually anybody else coming here.
>
> when your old orange ancestors set up a provisional government and
> armed a protestant militia, they were in fact committing treason.
>
> now, do you wish to remain ignorant or do you want to get an education
> in the culture you so fervently defend, in spite of the shame it has
> garnered?
>
> you see, your immoral notions of loyalty do not exempt you from the
> laws of the country into which you are born.  even snotty protestant
> landowners, industrialists, politicians and clergy are not above the
law.
>
> never were and never will again.
>
> pps
>
> --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for taking the time to reply. However, none
> > of what you wrote explains how it can possibly be
> > treason to want to remain part of the state you were
> > born in (the UK, in this case).
> >
> > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> > must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary
> > state before the English were invited in.
> >
> > regards,
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I wouldn't waste my time trying to furnish you with
> > > enough material to overcome your innate ignorance of
> > > the history of NI.  you being an old orange, you will
> > > have been well brainwashed into avoiding the truth
> > > rather than taking an objective look at it.
> > >
> > > the people of ireland should have been governing the
> > > whole country since shortly after 1918 when the people
> > > of ireland voted over 75% to determine their own destiny.
> > > if it had not been for the religious bigots in the NE
> > > corner, and a lot of treasonous help from others, it
> > > would have happened as promised.  if there had been
> > > no threat of violence from bigoted irish protestants
> > > the country could have enjoyed normal society.
> > > instead, the bigots filled your heads with fear and
> > > loathing that led ultimately to spontaneous sectarian
> > > murder on the street of belfast in 1966 that signaled
> > > the final demise of the old orange regime.
> > >
> > > admit it, your old orange culture simply hated people
> > > of another Christian faith.  if you admit that, you
> > > might feel better about yourself.
> > >
> > > I see there seems to be only you and me here.
> > > I suppose if I stopped posting you'd be happier.
> > > that way Alan and his old orange buddies
> > > could come here too.
> > >
> > > pps
> > >
> > > --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > None of that explains how it can possibly be treason to
> > > > want to remain part of the state you were born in (the UK,
> > > > in this case).
> > > >
> > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary state
> > > > before the English were invited in.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > it's such a blur of activity here I almost missed your post.
> > > > >
> > > > > the inhabitants of ireland were and still are irish.  that part
> > which
> > > > > was partitioned off to remain under the control of england
> > became NI.
> > > > >  the people there are british subjects.
> > > > >
> > > > > the people who caused NI to be created used treason and
> blackmail to
> > > > > achieve their goal.  they were irish protestants who were
consumed
> > > > > with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by their religious and
> > > > > political leaders. it's historic fact.
> > > > >
> > > > > ireland as a nation held an election in 1918 the result of
> which was
> > > > > an overwhelming majority of the irish people in favour of home
> rule
> > > > > for the island.  this had previously been agreed upon
between the
> > > > > dublin and london governments and would have been instituted
> excpet
> > > > > for the intervention of WW1.
> > > > >
> > > > > in any election there will be those who voted for the
majority and
> > > > > those who voted for the minority.  most civilised peoples
> understand
> > > > > this.  not however the protestant bigots in the NE corner of the
> > > > > island.  they, like you, seemed to think they had the right to
> deny
> > > > > the will of the majority in ireland while at the same time
denying
> > > > > civil and religious liberty for the minority of non-protestants
> > in NI
> > > > > that were stranded there following the partition of the island.
> > > > >
> > > > > this of course is the primary trait of an old orange for they
> > ruled in
> > > > > this fashion until 1972 when the english realised they had
> > handed over
> > > > > a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil bigots, most of whom
> > supported
> > > > > the ideals of the orange order and the biggest bigot of all,
> > paisley.
> > > > >
> > > > > starting in 1972 the english commenced a program that would
> deny the
> > > > > old oranges any further opportunities to discriminate against UK
> > > > > citizens.  this relieved the tremendous embarrassment the whole
> > affair
> > > > > had become for the once proud and might english.
> > > > >
> > > > > your old orange credentials have been trotted out enough times
> here
> > > > > and has probably caused whatever members there were to vacate.
> > today,
> > > > > most enlightened people would not subscribe to your screwy
> > ideas.  the
> > > > > old orange culture of NI is not worth defending.  it had no
moral
> > > > > fibre to hold any argument presented by any old orange - in or
> > out of
> > > > > ireland.
> > > > >
> > > > > thankfully, today in NI non-protestants have civil and religious
> > > > > rights equal to any UK citizen.  that wasn't the case under
> the old
> > > > > oranges.  that's what gets old oranges like you so depressed.
> > > > >
> > > > > pps
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ignoring your abuse, for the moment, I'll just
> > > > > > point out that...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The inhabitants of what became Northern Ireland
> > > > > > were British subjects, so trying to remain British
> > > > > > could hardly be treason.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There was no referendum in Ireland in 1918 on national
> > > > > > "self-determination". There was just an election to
> > > > > > parliament. It became abundantly clear that views
> > > > > > on where their future lay were very different in
> > > > > > the North East from those in the South and West.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no law of the universe that one land mass
> > > > > > must be a single state. There are land borders in
> > > > > > North America and the main land mass of Scandinavia,
> > > > > > to name just two examples. Britain itself has been
> > > > > > separate states, and today is a Union of kingdoms.
> > > > > > Even Ireland was not a single kingdom in any real
> > > > > > sense before the English were invited in.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your other claims have been pre-refuted in this
> > > > > > group many times already, so I'll not weary the
> > > > > > members with a repetition. Feel free to
> > > > > > read the archives for enlightenment!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Finally, I'll paraphrase you: Your tired green
> > > > > > argument only works if you subscribe to green
> > > > > > principles with respect to democracy and how it
> > > > > > should operate :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > Paul
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm not pretending anything.  you're an old orange as
> > > > demonstrated by
> > > > > > > your sympathies and your ignorance.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > my views on the old orange culture you so fervently
> support are
> > > > widely
> > > > > > > held.  it was an abomination of evil and terror.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > NI was founded to appease protestant irish religious
> bigots who
> > > > > > > happened to form a majority in the 6 counties of ireland
they
> > > > lovingly
> > > > > > > renamed 'ulster'.  they used treason, blackmail and
> violence to
> > > > force
> > > > > > > the partition of the country.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > in 1918 the whole population of the undivided country
voted by
> > > over
> > > > > > > 70% to seek national self determination.  something
> hundreds of
> > > > > > > thousands of irish men and women fought in WW1 to
achieve for
> > > > similar
> > > > > > > smaller countries elsewhere.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > your tired old orange argument only works if you subscribe
> > to old
> > > > > > > orange principles with respect to democracy and how it
should
> > > > operate.
> > > > > > >   only an old orange like yourself could advocate for
the will
> > > > of the
> > > > > > > minority so long as that minority is protestant.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > the old orange culture you hold so dearly had no respect
> for the
> > > > > > > catholic minority in NI.  they suppressed them for their
> > religious
> > > > > > > beliefs and denied them equal civil rights to protestants.
>  this
> > > > > > > carried on until 1972 when the situation became so
> > > embarrassing for
> > > > > > > the english they had to dismantle the whole lot.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > now the whole country of ireland is being governed by equals
> > > in fair
> > > > > > > and democratic elections.  many, many innocent people
> would have
> > > > lived
> > > > > > > longer lives if the bigoted irish protestants who forced the
> > > > creation
> > > > > > > of NI had accepted the will of democracy and developed
> civilised
> > > > > > > society in normal partnership with their fellow citizens who
> > just
> > > > > > > happened to be believers in another Christian faith.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > fortunately, the days when 'ulster' protestants get what
they
> > > > want are
> > > > > > > over.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > you should do some more reading of NI history and the
> bigots who
> > > > > > > caused way more trouble than they were worth.  you might
give
> > > up on
> > > > > > > fighting a losing battle.  the old orange days in NI were
> > > > discredited
> > > > > > > a long time ago.  you're in a severe minority with your
> > > support for
> > > > > > > religious discrimination of whatever proportion.  only a
> > true old
> > > > > > > orange could hold onto an immoral set of values by
> claiming that
> > > > they
> > > > > > > could be worse.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ps still only you and me here.  how's it going over at your
> > > > other site
> > > > > > > - the one you banned me from?  is it the same old repetitive
> > > > postings
> > > > > > > from Alan.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So you're still pretending that disagreeing with your just
> > > > slightly
> > > > > > > > extreme views makes me an "old orange". Since nobody
but you
> > > knows
> > > > > > > > what that means, I'll try not to get too upset :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Let's try to find some points (rather than mere abuse)
> in your
> > > > > > > > message, and examine them again.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Northern Ireland was not founded "to divide and partition
> > > > ireland".
> > > > > > > > Ireland was partitioned, and the Irish Free State and
> Northern
> > > > > Ireland
> > > > > > > > were formed BECAUSE Ireland was ALREADY DIVIDED on how it
> > wanted
> > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > ruled.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You might well have preferred that the million or so UK
> > > > citizens who
> > > > > > > > formed the greater number in the north east were
> > unceremoniously
> > > > > > > > ejected, and forced into a confessional state. Some
> Unionists
> > > > might
> > > > > > > > have preferred the several million in the south and east
> to be
> > > > > forced
> > > > > > > > to stay in the Union with Britain. But it is not
possible to
> > > give
> > > > > > > > everyone what they want.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The settlement was that both communities would be
allowed to
> > > > express
> > > > > > > > their identity, and live in the state to which they gave
> their
> > > > > > > > alliegance. Because the Irish people as a whole did not
> have a
> > > > > single
> > > > > > > > view on how they should be governed, a line was drawn.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm pleased to see you're not justifying PIRA
atrocities as
> > > > > such, even
> > > > > > > > while you try to absolve them of any actual
responsibility.
> > > Do you
> > > > > > > > believe in some sort of marxist historical necessity? An
> > > > inevitable
> > > > > > > > revolution brought about by the contradictions inherent
> in the
> > > > > system?
> > > > > > > > It's bunk. If people kill, maim, and bomb - THEY must take
> > > > > > > responsibility.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Your attempt to shift the blame is offensive and
> wrong-headed:
> > > > > > > > > "your lot started the murderous campaigns and
> > > > > > > > > with treason and violence forced a situation..."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You seem to have difficulty reading that I condemned
> > > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > where it occurred in the North - so I'll say it again.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I. condemn. discrimination. where. it. occurred. in. the.
> > north.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To avoid hypocrisy, I'll also condemn it in the South.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You are free to disbelieve me when I point out that there
> > > was less
> > > > > > > > discrimination in the north than you claim (and no "holy
> > > religious
> > > > > > > > war"). Similarly, you can ignore any hint that
> discrimination
> > > > > happened
> > > > > > > > in the south as well. If it makes it easier, you can
pretend
> > > that
> > > > > > > > events in the south were "irrelevant" to the views and
> > > actions of
> > > > > > > > people in the north. You would still be wrong, though.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Finally, you dismiss the Southern reluctance to act
> > against the
> > > > > IRA as
> > > > > > > > "a grand display of old orange ignorance". Are you denying
> > > > that the
> > > > > > > > southern administration or its members ran guns to the IRA
> > > > > (Haughey),
> > > > > > > > or allowed training camps to operate with impunity in
> > > Donegal and
> > > > > > > > other border counties, or dragged their feet on
extradition,
> > > > > sometimes
> > > > > > > > refusing outright to make terrorists answer for their
crimes
> > > in a
> > > > > > > > court of law, or refused to allow hot pursuit over the
> > > border - to
> > > > > > > > such an extent that terrorists could sit safely in the
> > > > Republic, and
> > > > > > > > remotely detonate bombs against targets in Northern
Ireland?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It was not until the atrocities of 9/11 that the
> hypocritical
> > > > double
> > > > > > > > standard of the Irish (and US) government with regard to
> > > > > terrorism in
> > > > > > > > Ireland was seriously threatened.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And just because I don't have time to refute all your
other
> > > > > throw away
> > > > > > > > accusations and misleading or selective
characterisations of
> > > > events,
> > > > > > > > don't assume that I agree with the rest of what you wrote.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "when it was founded after the south got its autonomy"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > it was founded to divide and partition ireland.  to say
> > it had
> > > > > > faults
> > > > > > > > > is a huge understatement.  NI governments are
> characterised
> > > > by the
> > > > > > > > > bigotry that directed policy.  in my book it was an evil
> > > period
> > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > the years the old orange bigots controlled NI.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > you're the one hooked on justifying old orange actions.
> > > I'm not
> > > > > > > > > justifying (P)IRA terrorism.  you're just raising the
> > spectre
> > > > > of an
> > > > > > > > > old orange again.  you're true to form all right.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > your lot started the murderous campaigns and with
> > treason and
> > > > > > violence
> > > > > > > > > forced a situation to develop that encouraged
spontaneous
> > > > > murder of
> > > > > > > > > innocent catholics.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > from the 1920s to 1972, until it was dismantled, NI
> > > protestants
> > > > > > > > > supported by popular vote the continued religious
> > > discrimination
> > > > > > > > > enacted on their behalf against fellow UK citizens.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > the actions of the (P)IRA during the war were
harnessed by
> > > > the old
> > > > > > > > > oranges to their harsh treatment of fellow citizens.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > looks to me like you only see republicans as evil.  I
> don't
> > > > > disagree
> > > > > > > > > with you on that.  the problem though is every time I
> expose
> > > > > some of
> > > > > > > > > the evil that was unionist politics or terrorism you go
> > > > ape-shit.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "or the Southern reluctance to act against the IRA."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > a grand display of old orange ignorance.  you really do
> > > need to
> > > > > > read a
> > > > > > > > > bit more.  the forum looks a bit neglected.  there only
> > seems
> > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > the two of us.  I hope things improve before you ban
> me from
> > > > > > here too.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Of course there were faults with the Northern Irish
> > > government
> > > > > > > between
> > > > > > > > > > the 1920s, when it was founded after the south got its
> > > > > > autonomy, and
> > > > > > > > > > 1972, when it was taken over by Westminster -
> > > particularly if
> > > > > > we are
> > > > > > > > > > judging by the standards of today.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But it is a travesty to pretend that such faults as
> > > there were
> > > > > > > in any
> > > > > > > > > > way justified, much less forced, the IRA's murderous
> > > > campaign to
> > > > > > > > > > undermine the wishes of the greater number of Northern
> > > > Ireland's
> > > > > > > > > > citizens to live at peace in the Union.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It would be an equal travesty to maintain that
southern
> > > > > > > collusion with
> > > > > > > > > > the IRA, or such institutional sectarianism as existed
> > > in the
> > > > > > > southern
> > > > > > > > > > state, justified the loyalist bombings there. That
> > could not
> > > > > > even be
> > > > > > > > > > justified by IRA atrocities in the North, or the
> Southern
> > > > > > reluctance
> > > > > > > > > > to act against the IRA.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you somehow conceive that these views make me an
> > > > > apologist for
> > > > > > > > > > bigotry, that is your right and privilege. It's still
> > > > > tendentious
> > > > > > > > > > nonsense though, and you really shouldn't assume
that I
> > > agree.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Your monomaniacal insistence that all the evils of the
> > past
> > > > > > century
> > > > > > > > > > can be laid at the door of the community of which you
> > > are not
> > > > > > a part
> > > > > > > > > > seems like a self-serving rationalisation, wilful
> > > > blindness, and
> > > > > > > > > > smacks not a little of the type of bigotry you see in
> > > everyone
> > > > > > else.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Do you have any ideas on peacemaking beyond
getting all
> > > > > > > protestants to
> > > > > > > > > > wear sackcloth and ashes for ever?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > you picked the title, not me.  you define it,
not me.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > as for useful discussion, I'm at a loss.  you hardly
> > > > ever come
> > > > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > > > and when you do it's mostly to chastise me.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > the old orange regime was terrible.  it was morally
> > > > > bankrupt and
> > > > > > > > evil
> > > > > > > > > > > but was kept alive too long.  it eventually got
NI its
> > > > recent
> > > > > > > war.
> > > > > > > > > > > that's what happens when morally bankrupt regimes
> exist.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I'm not impressed with your observation since you
> exist
> > > > within
> > > > > > > > an old
> > > > > > > > > > > orange bubble that hasn't burst yet.  this is
what is
> > > > still a
> > > > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > > > > > in NI.  too many brain-washed and ignorant old
> oranges.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >  --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Patrick asks "why not". If someone sincerely
> > > believes that
> > > > > > > > "Peace in
> > > > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland" is the same as "why one side
> is are
> > > > not to
> > > > > > > > > blame at
> > > > > > > > > > > > all, and the other lot caused it all", then it
> is hard
> > > > > to see
> > > > > > > > he or
> > > > > > > > > > > > she could join in any useful discussion of peace,
> > beyond
> > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > kind of
> > > > > > > > > > > > futile "'aren't "they" terrible', mutual
> back-slapping
> > > > > circle.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > As for using the phrase "the accepted opinion of
> many
> > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > > > people" to bolster his personal interpretation
> of the
> > > > > > > > conflict, I'll
> > > > > > > > > > > > point out that the consensus among reasonable
> > > observers is
> > > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > > > "war" in Northern Ireland was political,
rather than
> > > > > > > > religious. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > situation was clearly inflamed by ethnic
> tensions, but
> > > > there
> > > > > > > > was no
> > > > > > > > > > > > religious war as such. As opposed to the 16th
> century,
> > > > > > > nobody was
> > > > > > > > > > > > killed over their views on, say,
> > transubstantiation. The
> > > > > > > > > minority who
> > > > > > > > > > > > tried periodically throughout the 20th century to
> > > > > overturn the
> > > > > > > > > > > > settlement reached in the 1920s were fighting
about
> > > > > > politics and
> > > > > > > > > land.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Those who opposed them were defending their
> > > > government, and
> > > > > > > > > resisting
> > > > > > > > > > > > encroachment by what at the time was a
> > backward-looking,
> > > > > > > > > impoverished,
> > > > > > > > > > > > and censorious state.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Things have moved on, fortunately. Citizens on
both
> > > sides
> > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > border are better off. And practically nobody is
> > > trying to
> > > > > > > impose
> > > > > > > > > > > > their will by murder and bombing.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Now, if we can mop up the remaining thugs as they
> > try to
> > > > > hold
> > > > > > > > on to
> > > > > > > > > > > > their power by organising crime empires, and if
> we can
> > > > > > > improve the
> > > > > > > > > > > > democracy of the structures of government, and
avoid
> > > > > > losing our
> > > > > > > > > > > > hard-won freedoms to inflated hysteria over
> "Islamic"
> > > > > > terrorism
> > > > > > > > > (or US
> > > > > > > > > > > > "imperialism"), if we can address factors that
> > > threaten us
> > > > > > > > all, like
> > > > > > > > > > > > institutional global inequalities and global
> warming,
> > > > > > things may
> > > > > > > > > > > > continue to improve.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > why not Paul?  if you spent some time here
we just
> > > > > might get
> > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > debate but you seem reluctant to challenge the
> > > accepted
> > > > > > > > opinion of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > many reasonable people that if the old
oranges of
> > > NI (of
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > are still toooooo many) had dropped their
> > > religious war
> > > > > > on RCs
> > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > would have been no war recently.  if ignorant
> bigots
> > > > like
> > > > > > > > paisley
> > > > > > > > > > > > > hadn't aroused ancient hatreds among his
sect they
> > > would
> > > > > > > > have been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > more satisfied now than they are having lost the
> > > > religious
> > > > > > > > battle.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm off on holidays. Feel free to discuss
> > "peace in
> > > > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > > > Ireland"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > while I'm out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note to Patrick - that is not NECESSARILY
> the same
> > > > > as "why
> > > > > > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the fault of the other side".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Name calling is NOT going to demonstrate the superiority
of your ideology, Patrick. Civility and all, please?

Paul


--- paddy221666 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> "Get a life Paddy."
>
> typical old orange response.  it didn't take long for Sooty to show
> his true colours and ignorance.
>
> I find that with the old oranges.  (an epithet that fits all)  they
> pretend to be this, that and the other and underneath it all is a
> hatred that bursts out like spontaneous murder.
>
> it comes from a life of vulgarity, disrespect and violence.  makes you
> wonder if their mothers didn't teach them any manners.
>
> pps
>
> --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, xavier black
> <xaviery2002@> wrote:
> >
> > Old orange? Do you spew this stupid epitaph on every
> > list you're on? Get a life Paddy.
> >
> > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I know that you subscribe to the old orange ideology
> > > and that you
> > > prefer ignorance to enlightenment but I'll just
> > > throw this out in case
> > >  there is actually anybody else coming here.
> > >
> > > when your old orange ancestors set up a provisional
> > > government and
> > > armed a protestant militia, they were in fact
> > > committing treason.
> > >
> > > now, do you wish to remain ignorant or do you want
> > > to get an education
> > > in the culture you so fervently defend, in spite of
> > > the shame it has
> > > garnered?
> > >
> > > you see, your immoral notions of loyalty do not
> > > exempt you from the
> > > laws of the country into which you are born.  even
> > > snotty protestant
> > > landowners, industrialists, politicians and clergy
> > > are not above the law.
> > >
> > > never were and never will again.
> > >
> > > pps
> > >
> > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > notmyopinion
> > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. However,
> > > none
> > > > of what you wrote explains how it can possibly be
> > > > treason to want to remain part of the state you
> > > were
> > > > born in (the UK, in this case).
> > > >
> > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of
> > > stone
> > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of
> > > Ireland
> > > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or
> > > why the
> > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a
> > > unitary
> > > > state before the English were invited in.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I wouldn't waste my time trying to furnish you
> > > with
> > > > > enough material to overcome your innate
> > > ignorance of
> > > > > the history of NI.  you being an old orange, you
> > > will
> > > > > have been well brainwashed into avoiding the
> > > truth
> > > > > rather than taking an objective look at it.
> > > > >
> > > > > the people of ireland should have been governing
> > > the
> > > > > whole country since shortly after 1918 when the
> > > people
> > > > > of ireland voted over 75% to determine their own
> > > destiny.
> > > > > if it had not been for the religious bigots in
> > > the NE
> > > > > corner, and a lot of treasonous help from
> > > others, it
> > > > > would have happened as promised.  if there had
> > > been
> > > > > no threat of violence from bigoted irish
> > > protestants
> > > > > the country could have enjoyed normal society.
> > > > > instead, the bigots filled your heads with fear
> > > and
> > > > > loathing that led ultimately to spontaneous
> > > sectarian
> > > > > murder on the street of belfast in 1966 that
> > > signaled
> > > > > the final demise of the old orange regime.
> > > > >
> > > > > admit it, your old orange culture simply hated
> > > people
> > > > > of another Christian faith.  if you admit that,
> > > you
> > > > > might feel better about yourself.
> > > > >
> > > > > I see there seems to be only you and me here.
> > > > > I suppose if I stopped posting you'd be happier.
> > >
> > > > > that way Alan and his old orange buddies
> > > > > could come here too.
> > > > >
> > > > > pps
> > > > >
> > > > > --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > None of that explains how it can possibly be
> > > treason to
> > > > > > want to remain part of the state you were born
> > > in (the UK,
> > > > > > in this case).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets
> > > of stone
> > > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity
> > > of Ireland
> > > > > > must be governed as a single political entity.
> > > Or why the
> > > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a
> > > unitary state
> > > > > > before the English were invited in.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > Paul
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > it's such a blur of activity here I almost
> > > missed your post.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > the inhabitants of ireland were and still
> > > are irish.  that part
> > > > which
> > > > > > > was partitioned off to remain under the
> > > control of england
> > > > became NI.
> > > > > > >  the people there are british subjects.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > the people who caused NI to be created used
> > > treason and
> > > blackmail to
> > > > > > > achieve their goal.  they were irish
> > > protestants who were consumed
> > > > > > > with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by
> > > their religious and
> > > > > > > political leaders. it's historic fact.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ireland as a nation held an election in 1918
> > > the result of
> > > which was
> > > > > > > an overwhelming majority of the irish people
> > > in favour of home
> > > rule
> > > > > > > for the island.  this had previously been
> > > agreed upon between the
> > > > > > > dublin and london governments and would have
> > > been instituted
> > > excpet
> > > > > > > for the intervention of WW1.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > in any election there will be those who
> > > voted for the majority and
> > > > > > > those who voted for the minority.  most
> > > civilised peoples
> > > understand
> > > > > > > this.  not however the protestant bigots in
> > > the NE corner of the
> > > > > > > island.  they, like you, seemed to think
> > > they had the right to
> > > deny
> > > > > > > the will of the majority in ireland while at
> > > the same time denying
> > > > > > > civil and religious liberty for the minority
> > > of non-protestants
> > > > in NI
> > > > > > > that were stranded there following the
> > > partition of the island.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > this of course is the primary trait of an
> > > old orange for they
> > > > ruled in
> > > > > > > this fashion until 1972 when the english
> > > realised they had
> > > > handed over
> > > > > > > a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil
> > > bigots, most of whom
> > > > supported
> > > > > > > the ideals of the orange order and the
> > > biggest bigot of all,
> > > > paisley.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > starting in 1972 the english commenced a
> > > program that would
> > > deny the
> > > > > > > old oranges any further opportunities to
> > > discriminate against UK
> > > > > > > citizens.  this relieved the tremendous
> > > embarrassment the whole
> > > > affair
> > > > > > > had become for the once proud and might
> > > english.
> > > > > > >
> > >
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
> > Be a better sports nut!  Let your teams follow you
> > with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
> >
>

"Get a life Paddy."

typical old orange response.  it didn't take long for Sooty to show
his true colours and ignorance.

I find that with the old oranges.  (an epithet that fits all)  they
pretend to be this, that and the other and underneath it all is a
hatred that bursts out like spontaneous murder.

it comes from a life of vulgarity, disrespect and violence.  makes you
wonder if their mothers didn't teach them any manners.

pps

--- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, xavier black
<xaviery2002@...> wrote:
>
> Old orange? Do you spew this stupid epitaph on every
> list you're on? Get a life Paddy.
>
> --- paddy221666 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> > I know that you subscribe to the old orange ideology
> > and that you
> > prefer ignorance to enlightenment but I'll just
> > throw this out in case
> >  there is actually anybody else coming here.
> >
> > when your old orange ancestors set up a provisional
> > government and
> > armed a protestant militia, they were in fact
> > committing treason.
> >
> > now, do you wish to remain ignorant or do you want
> > to get an education
> > in the culture you so fervently defend, in spite of
> > the shame it has
> > garnered?
> >
> > you see, your immoral notions of loyalty do not
> > exempt you from the
> > laws of the country into which you are born.  even
> > snotty protestant
> > landowners, industrialists, politicians and clergy
> > are not above the law.
> >
> > never were and never will again.
> >
> > pps
> >
> > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > notmyopinion
> > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you for taking the time to reply. However,
> > none
> > > of what you wrote explains how it can possibly be
> > > treason to want to remain part of the state you
> > were
> > > born in (the UK, in this case).
> > >
> > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of
> > stone
> > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of
> > Ireland
> > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or
> > why the
> > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a
> > unitary
> > > state before the English were invited in.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I wouldn't waste my time trying to furnish you
> > with
> > > > enough material to overcome your innate
> > ignorance of
> > > > the history of NI.  you being an old orange, you
> > will
> > > > have been well brainwashed into avoiding the
> > truth
> > > > rather than taking an objective look at it.
> > > >
> > > > the people of ireland should have been governing
> > the
> > > > whole country since shortly after 1918 when the
> > people
> > > > of ireland voted over 75% to determine their own
> > destiny.
> > > > if it had not been for the religious bigots in
> > the NE
> > > > corner, and a lot of treasonous help from
> > others, it
> > > > would have happened as promised.  if there had
> > been
> > > > no threat of violence from bigoted irish
> > protestants
> > > > the country could have enjoyed normal society.
> > > > instead, the bigots filled your heads with fear
> > and
> > > > loathing that led ultimately to spontaneous
> > sectarian
> > > > murder on the street of belfast in 1966 that
> > signaled
> > > > the final demise of the old orange regime.
> > > >
> > > > admit it, your old orange culture simply hated
> > people
> > > > of another Christian faith.  if you admit that,
> > you
> > > > might feel better about yourself.
> > > >
> > > > I see there seems to be only you and me here.
> > > > I suppose if I stopped posting you'd be happier.
> >
> > > > that way Alan and his old orange buddies
> > > > could come here too.
> > > >
> > > > pps
> > > >
> > > > --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > None of that explains how it can possibly be
> > treason to
> > > > > want to remain part of the state you were born
> > in (the UK,
> > > > > in this case).
> > > > >
> > > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets
> > of stone
> > > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity
> > of Ireland
> > > > > must be governed as a single political entity.
> > Or why the
> > > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a
> > unitary state
> > > > > before the English were invited in.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards,
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > it's such a blur of activity here I almost
> > missed your post.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the inhabitants of ireland were and still
> > are irish.  that part
> > > which
> > > > > > was partitioned off to remain under the
> > control of england
> > > became NI.
> > > > > >  the people there are british subjects.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the people who caused NI to be created used
> > treason and
> > blackmail to
> > > > > > achieve their goal.  they were irish
> > protestants who were consumed
> > > > > > with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by
> > their religious and
> > > > > > political leaders. it's historic fact.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ireland as a nation held an election in 1918
> > the result of
> > which was
> > > > > > an overwhelming majority of the irish people
> > in favour of home
> > rule
> > > > > > for the island.  this had previously been
> > agreed upon between the
> > > > > > dublin and london governments and would have
> > been instituted
> > excpet
> > > > > > for the intervention of WW1.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > in any election there will be those who
> > voted for the majority and
> > > > > > those who voted for the minority.  most
> > civilised peoples
> > understand
> > > > > > this.  not however the protestant bigots in
> > the NE corner of the
> > > > > > island.  they, like you, seemed to think
> > they had the right to
> > deny
> > > > > > the will of the majority in ireland while at
> > the same time denying
> > > > > > civil and religious liberty for the minority
> > of non-protestants
> > > in NI
> > > > > > that were stranded there following the
> > partition of the island.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > this of course is the primary trait of an
> > old orange for they
> > > ruled in
> > > > > > this fashion until 1972 when the english
> > realised they had
> > > handed over
> > > > > > a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil
> > bigots, most of whom
> > > supported
> > > > > > the ideals of the orange order and the
> > biggest bigot of all,
> > > paisley.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > starting in 1972 the english commenced a
> > program that would
> > deny the
> > > > > > old oranges any further opportunities to
> > discriminate against UK
> > > > > > citizens.  this relieved the tremendous
> > embarrassment the whole
> > > affair
> > > > > > had become for the once proud and might
> > english.
> > > > > >
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
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>

Old orange? Do you spew this stupid epitaph on every
list you're on? Get a life Paddy.

--- paddy221666 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> I know that you subscribe to the old orange ideology
> and that you
> prefer ignorance to enlightenment but I'll just
> throw this out in case
>  there is actually anybody else coming here.
>
> when your old orange ancestors set up a provisional
> government and
> armed a protestant militia, they were in fact
> committing treason.
>
> now, do you wish to remain ignorant or do you want
> to get an education
> in the culture you so fervently defend, in spite of
> the shame it has
> garnered?
>
> you see, your immoral notions of loyalty do not
> exempt you from the
> laws of the country into which you are born.  even
> snotty protestant
> landowners, industrialists, politicians and clergy
> are not above the law.
>
> never were and never will again.
>
> pps
>
> --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> notmyopinion
> <no_reply@...> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for taking the time to reply. However,
> none
> > of what you wrote explains how it can possibly be
> > treason to want to remain part of the state you
> were
> > born in (the UK, in this case).
> >
> > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of
> stone
> > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of
> Ireland
> > must be governed as a single political entity. Or
> why the
> > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a
> unitary
> > state before the English were invited in.
> >
> > regards,
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I wouldn't waste my time trying to furnish you
> with
> > > enough material to overcome your innate
> ignorance of
> > > the history of NI.  you being an old orange, you
> will
> > > have been well brainwashed into avoiding the
> truth
> > > rather than taking an objective look at it.
> > >
> > > the people of ireland should have been governing
> the
> > > whole country since shortly after 1918 when the
> people
> > > of ireland voted over 75% to determine their own
> destiny.
> > > if it had not been for the religious bigots in
> the NE
> > > corner, and a lot of treasonous help from
> others, it
> > > would have happened as promised.  if there had
> been
> > > no threat of violence from bigoted irish
> protestants
> > > the country could have enjoyed normal society.
> > > instead, the bigots filled your heads with fear
> and
> > > loathing that led ultimately to spontaneous
> sectarian
> > > murder on the street of belfast in 1966 that
> signaled
> > > the final demise of the old orange regime.
> > >
> > > admit it, your old orange culture simply hated
> people
> > > of another Christian faith.  if you admit that,
> you
> > > might feel better about yourself.
> > >
> > > I see there seems to be only you and me here.
> > > I suppose if I stopped posting you'd be happier.
>
> > > that way Alan and his old orange buddies
> > > could come here too.
> > >
> > > pps
> > >
> > > --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > None of that explains how it can possibly be
> treason to
> > > > want to remain part of the state you were born
> in (the UK,
> > > > in this case).
> > > >
> > > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets
> of stone
> > > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity
> of Ireland
> > > > must be governed as a single political entity.
> Or why the
> > > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a
> unitary state
> > > > before the English were invited in.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > it's such a blur of activity here I almost
> missed your post.
> > > > >
> > > > > the inhabitants of ireland were and still
> are irish.  that part
> > which
> > > > > was partitioned off to remain under the
> control of england
> > became NI.
> > > > >  the people there are british subjects.
> > > > >
> > > > > the people who caused NI to be created used
> treason and
> blackmail to
> > > > > achieve their goal.  they were irish
> protestants who were consumed
> > > > > with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by
> their religious and
> > > > > political leaders. it's historic fact.
> > > > >
> > > > > ireland as a nation held an election in 1918
> the result of
> which was
> > > > > an overwhelming majority of the irish people
> in favour of home
> rule
> > > > > for the island.  this had previously been
> agreed upon between the
> > > > > dublin and london governments and would have
> been instituted
> excpet
> > > > > for the intervention of WW1.
> > > > >
> > > > > in any election there will be those who
> voted for the majority and
> > > > > those who voted for the minority.  most
> civilised peoples
> understand
> > > > > this.  not however the protestant bigots in
> the NE corner of the
> > > > > island.  they, like you, seemed to think
> they had the right to
> deny
> > > > > the will of the majority in ireland while at
> the same time denying
> > > > > civil and religious liberty for the minority
> of non-protestants
> > in NI
> > > > > that were stranded there following the
> partition of the island.
> > > > >
> > > > > this of course is the primary trait of an
> old orange for they
> > ruled in
> > > > > this fashion until 1972 when the english
> realised they had
> > handed over
> > > > > a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil
> bigots, most of whom
> > supported
> > > > > the ideals of the orange order and the
> biggest bigot of all,
> > paisley.
> > > > >
> > > > > starting in 1972 the english commenced a
> program that would
> deny the
> > > > > old oranges any further opportunities to
> discriminate against UK
> > > > > citizens.  this relieved the tremendous
> embarrassment the whole
> > affair
> > > > > had become for the once proud and might
> english.
> > > > >
>
=== message truncated ===



      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Be a better sports nut!  Let your teams follow you
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I know that you subscribe to the old orange ideology and that you
prefer ignorance to enlightenment but I'll just throw this out in case
  there is actually anybody else coming here.

when your old orange ancestors set up a provisional government and
armed a protestant militia, they were in fact committing treason.

now, do you wish to remain ignorant or do you want to get an education
in the culture you so fervently defend, in spite of the shame it has
garnered?

you see, your immoral notions of loyalty do not exempt you from the
laws of the country into which you are born.  even snotty protestant
landowners, industrialists, politicians and clergy are not above the law.

never were and never will again.

pps

--- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you for taking the time to reply. However, none
> of what you wrote explains how it can possibly be
> treason to want to remain part of the state you were
> born in (the UK, in this case).
>
> Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary
> state before the English were invited in.
>
> regards,
> Paul
>
>
> --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > I wouldn't waste my time trying to furnish you with
> > enough material to overcome your innate ignorance of
> > the history of NI.  you being an old orange, you will
> > have been well brainwashed into avoiding the truth
> > rather than taking an objective look at it.
> >
> > the people of ireland should have been governing the
> > whole country since shortly after 1918 when the people
> > of ireland voted over 75% to determine their own destiny.
> > if it had not been for the religious bigots in the NE
> > corner, and a lot of treasonous help from others, it
> > would have happened as promised.  if there had been
> > no threat of violence from bigoted irish protestants
> > the country could have enjoyed normal society.
> > instead, the bigots filled your heads with fear and
> > loathing that led ultimately to spontaneous sectarian
> > murder on the street of belfast in 1966 that signaled
> > the final demise of the old orange regime.
> >
> > admit it, your old orange culture simply hated people
> > of another Christian faith.  if you admit that, you
> > might feel better about yourself.
> >
> > I see there seems to be only you and me here.
> > I suppose if I stopped posting you'd be happier.
> > that way Alan and his old orange buddies
> > could come here too.
> >
> > pps
> >
> > --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > None of that explains how it can possibly be treason to
> > > want to remain part of the state you were born in (the UK,
> > > in this case).
> > >
> > > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> > > must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> > > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary state
> > > before the English were invited in.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > it's such a blur of activity here I almost missed your post.
> > > >
> > > > the inhabitants of ireland were and still are irish.  that part
> which
> > > > was partitioned off to remain under the control of england
> became NI.
> > > >  the people there are british subjects.
> > > >
> > > > the people who caused NI to be created used treason and
blackmail to
> > > > achieve their goal.  they were irish protestants who were consumed
> > > > with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by their religious and
> > > > political leaders. it's historic fact.
> > > >
> > > > ireland as a nation held an election in 1918 the result of
which was
> > > > an overwhelming majority of the irish people in favour of home
rule
> > > > for the island.  this had previously been agreed upon between the
> > > > dublin and london governments and would have been instituted
excpet
> > > > for the intervention of WW1.
> > > >
> > > > in any election there will be those who voted for the majority and
> > > > those who voted for the minority.  most civilised peoples
understand
> > > > this.  not however the protestant bigots in the NE corner of the
> > > > island.  they, like you, seemed to think they had the right to
deny
> > > > the will of the majority in ireland while at the same time denying
> > > > civil and religious liberty for the minority of non-protestants
> in NI
> > > > that were stranded there following the partition of the island.
> > > >
> > > > this of course is the primary trait of an old orange for they
> ruled in
> > > > this fashion until 1972 when the english realised they had
> handed over
> > > > a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil bigots, most of whom
> supported
> > > > the ideals of the orange order and the biggest bigot of all,
> paisley.
> > > >
> > > > starting in 1972 the english commenced a program that would
deny the
> > > > old oranges any further opportunities to discriminate against UK
> > > > citizens.  this relieved the tremendous embarrassment the whole
> affair
> > > > had become for the once proud and might english.
> > > >
> > > > your old orange credentials have been trotted out enough times
here
> > > > and has probably caused whatever members there were to vacate.
> today,
> > > > most enlightened people would not subscribe to your screwy
> ideas.  the
> > > > old orange culture of NI is not worth defending.  it had no moral
> > > > fibre to hold any argument presented by any old orange - in or
> out of
> > > > ireland.
> > > >
> > > > thankfully, today in NI non-protestants have civil and religious
> > > > rights equal to any UK citizen.  that wasn't the case under
the old
> > > > oranges.  that's what gets old oranges like you so depressed.
> > > >
> > > > pps
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ignoring your abuse, for the moment, I'll just
> > > > > point out that...
> > > > >
> > > > > The inhabitants of what became Northern Ireland
> > > > > were British subjects, so trying to remain British
> > > > > could hardly be treason.
> > > > >
> > > > > There was no referendum in Ireland in 1918 on national
> > > > > "self-determination". There was just an election to
> > > > > parliament. It became abundantly clear that views
> > > > > on where their future lay were very different in
> > > > > the North East from those in the South and West.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no law of the universe that one land mass
> > > > > must be a single state. There are land borders in
> > > > > North America and the main land mass of Scandinavia,
> > > > > to name just two examples. Britain itself has been
> > > > > separate states, and today is a Union of kingdoms.
> > > > > Even Ireland was not a single kingdom in any real
> > > > > sense before the English were invited in.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your other claims have been pre-refuted in this
> > > > > group many times already, so I'll not weary the
> > > > > members with a repetition. Feel free to
> > > > > read the archives for enlightenment!
> > > > >
> > > > > Finally, I'll paraphrase you: Your tired green
> > > > > argument only works if you subscribe to green
> > > > > principles with respect to democracy and how it
> > > > > should operate :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > regards,
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not pretending anything.  you're an old orange as
> > > demonstrated by
> > > > > > your sympathies and your ignorance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > my views on the old orange culture you so fervently
support are
> > > widely
> > > > > > held.  it was an abomination of evil and terror.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > NI was founded to appease protestant irish religious
bigots who
> > > > > > happened to form a majority in the 6 counties of ireland they
> > > lovingly
> > > > > > renamed 'ulster'.  they used treason, blackmail and
violence to
> > > force
> > > > > > the partition of the country.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > in 1918 the whole population of the undivided country voted by
> > over
> > > > > > 70% to seek national self determination.  something
hundreds of
> > > > > > thousands of irish men and women fought in WW1 to achieve for
> > > similar
> > > > > > smaller countries elsewhere.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > your tired old orange argument only works if you subscribe
> to old
> > > > > > orange principles with respect to democracy and how it should
> > > operate.
> > > > > >   only an old orange like yourself could advocate for the will
> > > of the
> > > > > > minority so long as that minority is protestant.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the old orange culture you hold so dearly had no respect
for the
> > > > > > catholic minority in NI.  they suppressed them for their
> religious
> > > > > > beliefs and denied them equal civil rights to protestants.
  this
> > > > > > carried on until 1972 when the situation became so
> > embarrassing for
> > > > > > the english they had to dismantle the whole lot.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > now the whole country of ireland is being governed by equals
> > in fair
> > > > > > and democratic elections.  many, many innocent people
would have
> > > lived
> > > > > > longer lives if the bigoted irish protestants who forced the
> > > creation
> > > > > > of NI had accepted the will of democracy and developed
civilised
> > > > > > society in normal partnership with their fellow citizens who
> just
> > > > > > happened to be believers in another Christian faith.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > fortunately, the days when 'ulster' protestants get what they
> > > want are
> > > > > > over.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > you should do some more reading of NI history and the
bigots who
> > > > > > caused way more trouble than they were worth.  you might give
> > up on
> > > > > > fighting a losing battle.  the old orange days in NI were
> > > discredited
> > > > > > a long time ago.  you're in a severe minority with your
> > support for
> > > > > > religious discrimination of whatever proportion.  only a
> true old
> > > > > > orange could hold onto an immoral set of values by
claiming that
> > > they
> > > > > > could be worse.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > pps
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ps still only you and me here.  how's it going over at your
> > > other site
> > > > > > - the one you banned me from?  is it the same old repetitive
> > > postings
> > > > > > from Alan.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So you're still pretending that disagreeing with your just
> > > slightly
> > > > > > > extreme views makes me an "old orange". Since nobody but you
> > knows
> > > > > > > what that means, I'll try not to get too upset :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let's try to find some points (rather than mere abuse)
in your
> > > > > > > message, and examine them again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Northern Ireland was not founded "to divide and partition
> > > ireland".
> > > > > > > Ireland was partitioned, and the Irish Free State and
Northern
> > > > Ireland
> > > > > > > were formed BECAUSE Ireland was ALREADY DIVIDED on how it
> wanted
> > > > to be
> > > > > > > ruled.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You might well have preferred that the million or so UK
> > > citizens who
> > > > > > > formed the greater number in the north east were
> unceremoniously
> > > > > > > ejected, and forced into a confessional state. Some
Unionists
> > > might
> > > > > > > have preferred the several million in the south and east
to be
> > > > forced
> > > > > > > to stay in the Union with Britain. But it is not possible to
> > give
> > > > > > > everyone what they want.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The settlement was that both communities would be allowed to
> > > express
> > > > > > > their identity, and live in the state to which they gave
their
> > > > > > > alliegance. Because the Irish people as a whole did not
have a
> > > > single
> > > > > > > view on how they should be governed, a line was drawn.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm pleased to see you're not justifying PIRA atrocities as
> > > > such, even
> > > > > > > while you try to absolve them of any actual responsibility.
> > Do you
> > > > > > > believe in some sort of marxist historical necessity? An
> > > inevitable
> > > > > > > revolution brought about by the contradictions inherent
in the
> > > > system?
> > > > > > > It's bunk. If people kill, maim, and bomb - THEY must take
> > > > > > responsibility.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your attempt to shift the blame is offensive and
wrong-headed:
> > > > > > > > "your lot started the murderous campaigns and
> > > > > > > > with treason and violence forced a situation..."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You seem to have difficulty reading that I condemned
> > > discrimination
> > > > > > > where it occurred in the North - so I'll say it again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I. condemn. discrimination. where. it. occurred. in. the.
> north.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To avoid hypocrisy, I'll also condemn it in the South.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You are free to disbelieve me when I point out that there
> > was less
> > > > > > > discrimination in the north than you claim (and no "holy
> > religious
> > > > > > > war"). Similarly, you can ignore any hint that
discrimination
> > > > happened
> > > > > > > in the south as well. If it makes it easier, you can pretend
> > that
> > > > > > > events in the south were "irrelevant" to the views and
> > actions of
> > > > > > > people in the north. You would still be wrong, though.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Finally, you dismiss the Southern reluctance to act
> against the
> > > > IRA as
> > > > > > > "a grand display of old orange ignorance". Are you denying
> > > that the
> > > > > > > southern administration or its members ran guns to the IRA
> > > > (Haughey),
> > > > > > > or allowed training camps to operate with impunity in
> > Donegal and
> > > > > > > other border counties, or dragged their feet on extradition,
> > > > sometimes
> > > > > > > refusing outright to make terrorists answer for their crimes
> > in a
> > > > > > > court of law, or refused to allow hot pursuit over the
> > border - to
> > > > > > > such an extent that terrorists could sit safely in the
> > > Republic, and
> > > > > > > remotely detonate bombs against targets in Northern Ireland?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It was not until the atrocities of 9/11 that the
hypocritical
> > > double
> > > > > > > standard of the Irish (and US) government with regard to
> > > > terrorism in
> > > > > > > Ireland was seriously threatened.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And just because I don't have time to refute all your other
> > > > throw away
> > > > > > > accusations and misleading or selective characterisations of
> > > events,
> > > > > > > don't assume that I agree with the rest of what you wrote.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "when it was founded after the south got its autonomy"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > it was founded to divide and partition ireland.  to say
> it had
> > > > > faults
> > > > > > > > is a huge understatement.  NI governments are
characterised
> > > by the
> > > > > > > > bigotry that directed policy.  in my book it was an evil
> > period
> > > > > during
> > > > > > > > the years the old orange bigots controlled NI.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > you're the one hooked on justifying old orange actions.
> > I'm not
> > > > > > > > justifying (P)IRA terrorism.  you're just raising the
> spectre
> > > > of an
> > > > > > > > old orange again.  you're true to form all right.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > your lot started the murderous campaigns and with
> treason and
> > > > > violence
> > > > > > > > forced a situation to develop that encouraged spontaneous
> > > > murder of
> > > > > > > > innocent catholics.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > from the 1920s to 1972, until it was dismantled, NI
> > protestants
> > > > > > > > supported by popular vote the continued religious
> > discrimination
> > > > > > > > enacted on their behalf against fellow UK citizens.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > the actions of the (P)IRA during the war were harnessed by
> > > the old
> > > > > > > > oranges to their harsh treatment of fellow citizens.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > looks to me like you only see republicans as evil.  I
don't
> > > > disagree
> > > > > > > > with you on that.  the problem though is every time I
expose
> > > > some of
> > > > > > > > the evil that was unionist politics or terrorism you go
> > > ape-shit.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "or the Southern reluctance to act against the IRA."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > a grand display of old orange ignorance.  you really do
> > need to
> > > > > read a
> > > > > > > > bit more.  the forum looks a bit neglected.  there only
> seems
> > > > to be
> > > > > > > > the two of us.  I hope things improve before you ban
me from
> > > > > here too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Of course there were faults with the Northern Irish
> > government
> > > > > > between
> > > > > > > > > the 1920s, when it was founded after the south got its
> > > > > autonomy, and
> > > > > > > > > 1972, when it was taken over by Westminster -
> > particularly if
> > > > > we are
> > > > > > > > > judging by the standards of today.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But it is a travesty to pretend that such faults as
> > there were
> > > > > > in any
> > > > > > > > > way justified, much less forced, the IRA's murderous
> > > campaign to
> > > > > > > > > undermine the wishes of the greater number of Northern
> > > Ireland's
> > > > > > > > > citizens to live at peace in the Union.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It would be an equal travesty to maintain that southern
> > > > > > collusion with
> > > > > > > > > the IRA, or such institutional sectarianism as existed
> > in the
> > > > > > southern
> > > > > > > > > state, justified the loyalist bombings there. That
> could not
> > > > > even be
> > > > > > > > > justified by IRA atrocities in the North, or the
Southern
> > > > > reluctance
> > > > > > > > > to act against the IRA.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you somehow conceive that these views make me an
> > > > apologist for
> > > > > > > > > bigotry, that is your right and privilege. It's still
> > > > tendentious
> > > > > > > > > nonsense though, and you really shouldn't assume that I
> > agree.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Your monomaniacal insistence that all the evils of the
> past
> > > > > century
> > > > > > > > > can be laid at the door of the community of which you
> > are not
> > > > > a part
> > > > > > > > > seems like a self-serving rationalisation, wilful
> > > blindness, and
> > > > > > > > > smacks not a little of the type of bigotry you see in
> > everyone
> > > > > else.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Do you have any ideas on peacemaking beyond getting all
> > > > > > protestants to
> > > > > > > > > wear sackcloth and ashes for ever?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > you picked the title, not me.  you define it, not me.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > as for useful discussion, I'm at a loss.  you hardly
> > > ever come
> > > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > > and when you do it's mostly to chastise me.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > the old orange regime was terrible.  it was morally
> > > > bankrupt and
> > > > > > > evil
> > > > > > > > > > but was kept alive too long.  it eventually got NI its
> > > recent
> > > > > > war.
> > > > > > > > > > that's what happens when morally bankrupt regimes
exist.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'm not impressed with your observation since you
exist
> > > within
> > > > > > > an old
> > > > > > > > > > orange bubble that hasn't burst yet.  this is what is
> > > still a
> > > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > > > > in NI.  too many brain-washed and ignorant old
oranges.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >  --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Patrick asks "why not". If someone sincerely
> > believes that
> > > > > > > "Peace in
> > > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland" is the same as "why one side
is are
> > > not to
> > > > > > > > blame at
> > > > > > > > > > > all, and the other lot caused it all", then it
is hard
> > > > to see
> > > > > > > he or
> > > > > > > > > > > she could join in any useful discussion of peace,
> beyond
> > > > some
> > > > > > > > kind of
> > > > > > > > > > > futile "'aren't "they" terrible', mutual
back-slapping
> > > > circle.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > As for using the phrase "the accepted opinion of
many
> > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > > people" to bolster his personal interpretation
of the
> > > > > > > conflict, I'll
> > > > > > > > > > > point out that the consensus among reasonable
> > observers is
> > > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > > "war" in Northern Ireland was political, rather than
> > > > > > > religious. The
> > > > > > > > > > > situation was clearly inflamed by ethnic
tensions, but
> > > there
> > > > > > > was no
> > > > > > > > > > > religious war as such. As opposed to the 16th
century,
> > > > > > nobody was
> > > > > > > > > > > killed over their views on, say,
> transubstantiation. The
> > > > > > > > minority who
> > > > > > > > > > > tried periodically throughout the 20th century to
> > > > overturn the
> > > > > > > > > > > settlement reached in the 1920s were fighting about
> > > > > politics and
> > > > > > > > land.
> > > > > > > > > > > Those who opposed them were defending their
> > > government, and
> > > > > > > > resisting
> > > > > > > > > > > encroachment by what at the time was a
> backward-looking,
> > > > > > > > impoverished,
> > > > > > > > > > > and censorious state.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Things have moved on, fortunately. Citizens on both
> > sides
> > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > border are better off. And practically nobody is
> > trying to
> > > > > > impose
> > > > > > > > > > > their will by murder and bombing.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Now, if we can mop up the remaining thugs as they
> try to
> > > > hold
> > > > > > > on to
> > > > > > > > > > > their power by organising crime empires, and if
we can
> > > > > > improve the
> > > > > > > > > > > democracy of the structures of government, and avoid
> > > > > losing our
> > > > > > > > > > > hard-won freedoms to inflated hysteria over
"Islamic"
> > > > > terrorism
> > > > > > > > (or US
> > > > > > > > > > > "imperialism"), if we can address factors that
> > threaten us
> > > > > > > all, like
> > > > > > > > > > > institutional global inequalities and global
warming,
> > > > > things may
> > > > > > > > > > > continue to improve.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > why not Paul?  if you spent some time here we just
> > > > might get
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > debate but you seem reluctant to challenge the
> > accepted
> > > > > > > opinion of
> > > > > > > > > > > > many reasonable people that if the old oranges of
> > NI (of
> > > > > which
> > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > are still toooooo many) had dropped their
> > religious war
> > > > > on RCs
> > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > would have been no war recently.  if ignorant
bigots
> > > like
> > > > > > > paisley
> > > > > > > > > > > > hadn't aroused ancient hatreds among his sect they
> > would
> > > > > > > have been
> > > > > > > > > > > > more satisfied now than they are having lost the
> > > religious
> > > > > > > battle.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm off on holidays. Feel free to discuss
> "peace in
> > > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > > Ireland"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > while I'm out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Note to Patrick - that is not NECESSARILY
the same
> > > > as "why
> > > > > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is the fault of the other side".
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Thank you for taking the time to reply. However, none
of what you wrote explains how it can possibly be
treason to want to remain part of the state you were
born in (the UK, in this case).

Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary
state before the English were invited in.

regards,
Paul


--- paddy221666 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I wouldn't waste my time trying to furnish you with
> enough material to overcome your innate ignorance of
> the history of NI.  you being an old orange, you will
> have been well brainwashed into avoiding the truth
> rather than taking an objective look at it.
>
> the people of ireland should have been governing the
> whole country since shortly after 1918 when the people
> of ireland voted over 75% to determine their own destiny.
> if it had not been for the religious bigots in the NE
> corner, and a lot of treasonous help from others, it
> would have happened as promised.  if there had been
> no threat of violence from bigoted irish protestants
> the country could have enjoyed normal society.
> instead, the bigots filled your heads with fear and
> loathing that led ultimately to spontaneous sectarian
> murder on the street of belfast in 1966 that signaled
> the final demise of the old orange regime.
>
> admit it, your old orange culture simply hated people
> of another Christian faith.  if you admit that, you
> might feel better about yourself.
>
> I see there seems to be only you and me here.
> I suppose if I stopped posting you'd be happier.
> that way Alan and his old orange buddies
> could come here too.
>
> pps
>
> --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > None of that explains how it can possibly be treason to
> > want to remain part of the state you were born in (the UK,
> > in this case).
> >
> > Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> > the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> > must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> > gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary state
> > before the English were invited in.
> >
> > regards,
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > it's such a blur of activity here I almost missed your post.
> > >
> > > the inhabitants of ireland were and still are irish.  that part
which
> > > was partitioned off to remain under the control of england
became NI.
> > >  the people there are british subjects.
> > >
> > > the people who caused NI to be created used treason and blackmail to
> > > achieve their goal.  they were irish protestants who were consumed
> > > with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by their religious and
> > > political leaders. it's historic fact.
> > >
> > > ireland as a nation held an election in 1918 the result of which was
> > > an overwhelming majority of the irish people in favour of home rule
> > > for the island.  this had previously been agreed upon between the
> > > dublin and london governments and would have been instituted excpet
> > > for the intervention of WW1.
> > >
> > > in any election there will be those who voted for the majority and
> > > those who voted for the minority.  most civilised peoples understand
> > > this.  not however the protestant bigots in the NE corner of the
> > > island.  they, like you, seemed to think they had the right to deny
> > > the will of the majority in ireland while at the same time denying
> > > civil and religious liberty for the minority of non-protestants
in NI
> > > that were stranded there following the partition of the island.
> > >
> > > this of course is the primary trait of an old orange for they
ruled in
> > > this fashion until 1972 when the english realised they had
handed over
> > > a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil bigots, most of whom
supported
> > > the ideals of the orange order and the biggest bigot of all,
paisley.
> > >
> > > starting in 1972 the english commenced a program that would deny the
> > > old oranges any further opportunities to discriminate against UK
> > > citizens.  this relieved the tremendous embarrassment the whole
affair
> > > had become for the once proud and might english.
> > >
> > > your old orange credentials have been trotted out enough times here
> > > and has probably caused whatever members there were to vacate.
today,
> > > most enlightened people would not subscribe to your screwy
ideas.  the
> > > old orange culture of NI is not worth defending.  it had no moral
> > > fibre to hold any argument presented by any old orange - in or
out of
> > > ireland.
> > >
> > > thankfully, today in NI non-protestants have civil and religious
> > > rights equal to any UK citizen.  that wasn't the case under the old
> > > oranges.  that's what gets old oranges like you so depressed.
> > >
> > > pps
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ignoring your abuse, for the moment, I'll just
> > > > point out that...
> > > >
> > > > The inhabitants of what became Northern Ireland
> > > > were British subjects, so trying to remain British
> > > > could hardly be treason.
> > > >
> > > > There was no referendum in Ireland in 1918 on national
> > > > "self-determination". There was just an election to
> > > > parliament. It became abundantly clear that views
> > > > on where their future lay were very different in
> > > > the North East from those in the South and West.
> > > >
> > > > There is no law of the universe that one land mass
> > > > must be a single state. There are land borders in
> > > > North America and the main land mass of Scandinavia,
> > > > to name just two examples. Britain itself has been
> > > > separate states, and today is a Union of kingdoms.
> > > > Even Ireland was not a single kingdom in any real
> > > > sense before the English were invited in.
> > > >
> > > > Your other claims have been pre-refuted in this
> > > > group many times already, so I'll not weary the
> > > > members with a repetition. Feel free to
> > > > read the archives for enlightenment!
> > > >
> > > > Finally, I'll paraphrase you: Your tired green
> > > > argument only works if you subscribe to green
> > > > principles with respect to democracy and how it
> > > > should operate :-)
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not pretending anything.  you're an old orange as
> > demonstrated by
> > > > > your sympathies and your ignorance.
> > > > >
> > > > > my views on the old orange culture you so fervently support are
> > widely
> > > > > held.  it was an abomination of evil and terror.
> > > > >
> > > > > NI was founded to appease protestant irish religious bigots who
> > > > > happened to form a majority in the 6 counties of ireland they
> > lovingly
> > > > > renamed 'ulster'.  they used treason, blackmail and violence to
> > force
> > > > > the partition of the country.
> > > > >
> > > > > in 1918 the whole population of the undivided country voted by
> over
> > > > > 70% to seek national self determination.  something hundreds of
> > > > > thousands of irish men and women fought in WW1 to achieve for
> > similar
> > > > > smaller countries elsewhere.
> > > > >
> > > > > your tired old orange argument only works if you subscribe
to old
> > > > > orange principles with respect to democracy and how it should
> > operate.
> > > > >   only an old orange like yourself could advocate for the will
> > of the
> > > > > minority so long as that minority is protestant.
> > > > >
> > > > > the old orange culture you hold so dearly had no respect for the
> > > > > catholic minority in NI.  they suppressed them for their
religious
> > > > > beliefs and denied them equal civil rights to protestants.  this
> > > > > carried on until 1972 when the situation became so
> embarrassing for
> > > > > the english they had to dismantle the whole lot.
> > > > >
> > > > > now the whole country of ireland is being governed by equals
> in fair
> > > > > and democratic elections.  many, many innocent people would have
> > lived
> > > > > longer lives if the bigoted irish protestants who forced the
> > creation
> > > > > of NI had accepted the will of democracy and developed civilised
> > > > > society in normal partnership with their fellow citizens who
just
> > > > > happened to be believers in another Christian faith.
> > > > >
> > > > > fortunately, the days when 'ulster' protestants get what they
> > want are
> > > > > over.
> > > > >
> > > > > you should do some more reading of NI history and the bigots who
> > > > > caused way more trouble than they were worth.  you might give
> up on
> > > > > fighting a losing battle.  the old orange days in NI were
> > discredited
> > > > > a long time ago.  you're in a severe minority with your
> support for
> > > > > religious discrimination of whatever proportion.  only a
true old
> > > > > orange could hold onto an immoral set of values by claiming that
> > they
> > > > > could be worse.
> > > > >
> > > > > pps
> > > > >
> > > > > ps still only you and me here.  how's it going over at your
> > other site
> > > > > - the one you banned me from?  is it the same old repetitive
> > postings
> > > > > from Alan.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So you're still pretending that disagreeing with your just
> > slightly
> > > > > > extreme views makes me an "old orange". Since nobody but you
> knows
> > > > > > what that means, I'll try not to get too upset :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let's try to find some points (rather than mere abuse) in your
> > > > > > message, and examine them again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Northern Ireland was not founded "to divide and partition
> > ireland".
> > > > > > Ireland was partitioned, and the Irish Free State and Northern
> > > Ireland
> > > > > > were formed BECAUSE Ireland was ALREADY DIVIDED on how it
wanted
> > > to be
> > > > > > ruled.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You might well have preferred that the million or so UK
> > citizens who
> > > > > > formed the greater number in the north east were
unceremoniously
> > > > > > ejected, and forced into a confessional state. Some Unionists
> > might
> > > > > > have preferred the several million in the south and east to be
> > > forced
> > > > > > to stay in the Union with Britain. But it is not possible to
> give
> > > > > > everyone what they want.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The settlement was that both communities would be allowed to
> > express
> > > > > > their identity, and live in the state to which they gave their
> > > > > > alliegance. Because the Irish people as a whole did not have a
> > > single
> > > > > > view on how they should be governed, a line was drawn.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm pleased to see you're not justifying PIRA atrocities as
> > > such, even
> > > > > > while you try to absolve them of any actual responsibility.
> Do you
> > > > > > believe in some sort of marxist historical necessity? An
> > inevitable
> > > > > > revolution brought about by the contradictions inherent in the
> > > system?
> > > > > > It's bunk. If people kill, maim, and bomb - THEY must take
> > > > > responsibility.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your attempt to shift the blame is offensive and wrong-headed:
> > > > > > > "your lot started the murderous campaigns and
> > > > > > > with treason and violence forced a situation..."
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You seem to have difficulty reading that I condemned
> > discrimination
> > > > > > where it occurred in the North - so I'll say it again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I. condemn. discrimination. where. it. occurred. in. the.
north.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To avoid hypocrisy, I'll also condemn it in the South.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are free to disbelieve me when I point out that there
> was less
> > > > > > discrimination in the north than you claim (and no "holy
> religious
> > > > > > war"). Similarly, you can ignore any hint that discrimination
> > > happened
> > > > > > in the south as well. If it makes it easier, you can pretend
> that
> > > > > > events in the south were "irrelevant" to the views and
> actions of
> > > > > > people in the north. You would still be wrong, though.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Finally, you dismiss the Southern reluctance to act
against the
> > > IRA as
> > > > > > "a grand display of old orange ignorance". Are you denying
> > that the
> > > > > > southern administration or its members ran guns to the IRA
> > > (Haughey),
> > > > > > or allowed training camps to operate with impunity in
> Donegal and
> > > > > > other border counties, or dragged their feet on extradition,
> > > sometimes
> > > > > > refusing outright to make terrorists answer for their crimes
> in a
> > > > > > court of law, or refused to allow hot pursuit over the
> border - to
> > > > > > such an extent that terrorists could sit safely in the
> > Republic, and
> > > > > > remotely detonate bombs against targets in Northern Ireland?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It was not until the atrocities of 9/11 that the hypocritical
> > double
> > > > > > standard of the Irish (and US) government with regard to
> > > terrorism in
> > > > > > Ireland was seriously threatened.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And just because I don't have time to refute all your other
> > > throw away
> > > > > > accusations and misleading or selective characterisations of
> > events,
> > > > > > don't assume that I agree with the rest of what you wrote.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > Paul
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "when it was founded after the south got its autonomy"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > it was founded to divide and partition ireland.  to say
it had
> > > > faults
> > > > > > > is a huge understatement.  NI governments are characterised
> > by the
> > > > > > > bigotry that directed policy.  in my book it was an evil
> period
> > > > during
> > > > > > > the years the old orange bigots controlled NI.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > you're the one hooked on justifying old orange actions.
> I'm not
> > > > > > > justifying (P)IRA terrorism.  you're just raising the
spectre
> > > of an
> > > > > > > old orange again.  you're true to form all right.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > your lot started the murderous campaigns and with
treason and
> > > > violence
> > > > > > > forced a situation to develop that encouraged spontaneous
> > > murder of
> > > > > > > innocent catholics.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > from the 1920s to 1972, until it was dismantled, NI
> protestants
> > > > > > > supported by popular vote the continued religious
> discrimination
> > > > > > > enacted on their behalf against fellow UK citizens.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > the actions of the (P)IRA during the war were harnessed by
> > the old
> > > > > > > oranges to their harsh treatment of fellow citizens.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > looks to me like you only see republicans as evil.  I don't
> > > disagree
> > > > > > > with you on that.  the problem though is every time I expose
> > > some of
> > > > > > > the evil that was unionist politics or terrorism you go
> > ape-shit.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "or the Southern reluctance to act against the IRA."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > a grand display of old orange ignorance.  you really do
> need to
> > > > read a
> > > > > > > bit more.  the forum looks a bit neglected.  there only
seems
> > > to be
> > > > > > > the two of us.  I hope things improve before you ban me from
> > > > here too.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Of course there were faults with the Northern Irish
> government
> > > > > between
> > > > > > > > the 1920s, when it was founded after the south got its
> > > > autonomy, and
> > > > > > > > 1972, when it was taken over by Westminster -
> particularly if
> > > > we are
> > > > > > > > judging by the standards of today.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But it is a travesty to pretend that such faults as
> there were
> > > > > in any
> > > > > > > > way justified, much less forced, the IRA's murderous
> > campaign to
> > > > > > > > undermine the wishes of the greater number of Northern
> > Ireland's
> > > > > > > > citizens to live at peace in the Union.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It would be an equal travesty to maintain that southern
> > > > > collusion with
> > > > > > > > the IRA, or such institutional sectarianism as existed
> in the
> > > > > southern
> > > > > > > > state, justified the loyalist bombings there. That
could not
> > > > even be
> > > > > > > > justified by IRA atrocities in the North, or the Southern
> > > > reluctance
> > > > > > > > to act against the IRA.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you somehow conceive that these views make me an
> > > apologist for
> > > > > > > > bigotry, that is your right and privilege. It's still
> > > tendentious
> > > > > > > > nonsense though, and you really shouldn't assume that I
> agree.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Your monomaniacal insistence that all the evils of the
past
> > > > century
> > > > > > > > can be laid at the door of the community of which you
> are not
> > > > a part
> > > > > > > > seems like a self-serving rationalisation, wilful
> > blindness, and
> > > > > > > > smacks not a little of the type of bigotry you see in
> everyone
> > > > else.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Do you have any ideas on peacemaking beyond getting all
> > > > > protestants to
> > > > > > > > wear sackcloth and ashes for ever?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > you picked the title, not me.  you define it, not me.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > as for useful discussion, I'm at a loss.  you hardly
> > ever come
> > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > and when you do it's mostly to chastise me.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > the old orange regime was terrible.  it was morally
> > > bankrupt and
> > > > > > evil
> > > > > > > > > but was kept alive too long.  it eventually got NI its
> > recent
> > > > > war.
> > > > > > > > > that's what happens when morally bankrupt regimes exist.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm not impressed with your observation since you exist
> > within
> > > > > > an old
> > > > > > > > > orange bubble that hasn't burst yet.  this is what is
> > still a
> > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > > > in NI.  too many brain-washed and ignorant old oranges.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >  --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Patrick asks "why not". If someone sincerely
> believes that
> > > > > > "Peace in
> > > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland" is the same as "why one side is are
> > not to
> > > > > > > blame at
> > > > > > > > > > all, and the other lot caused it all", then it is hard
> > > to see
> > > > > > he or
> > > > > > > > > > she could join in any useful discussion of peace,
beyond
> > > some
> > > > > > > kind of
> > > > > > > > > > futile "'aren't "they" terrible', mutual back-slapping
> > > circle.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > As for using the phrase "the accepted opinion of many
> > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > people" to bolster his personal interpretation of the
> > > > > > conflict, I'll
> > > > > > > > > > point out that the consensus among reasonable
> observers is
> > > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > "war" in Northern Ireland was political, rather than
> > > > > > religious. The
> > > > > > > > > > situation was clearly inflamed by ethnic tensions, but
> > there
> > > > > > was no
> > > > > > > > > > religious war as such. As opposed to the 16th century,
> > > > > nobody was
> > > > > > > > > > killed over their views on, say,
transubstantiation. The
> > > > > > > minority who
> > > > > > > > > > tried periodically throughout the 20th century to
> > > overturn the
> > > > > > > > > > settlement reached in the 1920s were fighting about
> > > > politics and
> > > > > > > land.
> > > > > > > > > > Those who opposed them were defending their
> > government, and
> > > > > > > resisting
> > > > > > > > > > encroachment by what at the time was a
backward-looking,
> > > > > > > impoverished,
> > > > > > > > > > and censorious state.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Things have moved on, fortunately. Citizens on both
> sides
> > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > border are better off. And practically nobody is
> trying to
> > > > > impose
> > > > > > > > > > their will by murder and bombing.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Now, if we can mop up the remaining thugs as they
try to
> > > hold
> > > > > > on to
> > > > > > > > > > their power by organising crime empires, and if we can
> > > > > improve the
> > > > > > > > > > democracy of the structures of government, and avoid
> > > > losing our
> > > > > > > > > > hard-won freedoms to inflated hysteria over "Islamic"
> > > > terrorism
> > > > > > > (or US
> > > > > > > > > > "imperialism"), if we can address factors that
> threaten us
> > > > > > all, like
> > > > > > > > > > institutional global inequalities and global warming,
> > > > things may
> > > > > > > > > > continue to improve.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > why not Paul?  if you spent some time here we just
> > > might get
> > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > debate but you seem reluctant to challenge the
> accepted
> > > > > > opinion of
> > > > > > > > > > > many reasonable people that if the old oranges of
> NI (of
> > > > which
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > are still toooooo many) had dropped their
> religious war
> > > > on RCs
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > would have been no war recently.  if ignorant bigots
> > like
> > > > > > paisley
> > > > > > > > > > > hadn't aroused ancient hatreds among his sect they
> would
> > > > > > have been
> > > > > > > > > > > more satisfied now than they are having lost the
> > religious
> > > > > > battle.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm off on holidays. Feel free to discuss
"peace in
> > > > Northern
> > > > > > > > > Ireland"
> > > > > > > > > > > > while I'm out.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Note to Patrick - that is not NECESSARILY the same
> > > as "why
> > > > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > > > > > is the fault of the other side".
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

What part of "there was discrimination and it was wrong"
equates in your mind to "you have studiously justified the
discrimination inflicted upon NI catholics"?

I still think you're exaggerating though - which will seem
all too understandable to anyone who reads your last two
outbursts!

Your foot is dead now, Patrick. You can stop shooting.

regards,
Paul


--- paddy221666 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> paul, it's well known that you are a defender of bigots like paisley
> and the orange order.  both have been pissed that the old orange
> red-handled rattle was taken away from them and chucked back into the
> irish sea where it came from.
>
> you have studiously justified the discrimination inflicted upon NI
> catholics by the orange order dominated governments that first showed
> up in the early 20s and were massively supported by NI protestants
> until 1972 when the whole lot was dismantled.
>
> your old orange legacy stinks of bigotry, racism and unionist terror
> that was tacitly approved of by people like you.
>
> you aren't as smart as me or else you would not be clinging to such a
> lost cause.
>
> pps
>
>
>
> --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Are you reading the same group as the rest of us?
> >
> > > you are still peeved that the bigots in NI were
> > > denied the ability to continue to discriminate
> > > against UK citizens who were catholic.
> >
> > Not sure how you get that from my statement that there
> > was discrimination and it was wrong, but maybe that's
> > because I'm not as smart as you?
> >
> > regards,
> > Paul
> >
> > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > whatever floats your boat Paul.
> > >
> > > all I can see is that you are still peeved that the bigots
> > > in NI were denied the ability to continue to discriminate
> > > against UK citizens who were catholic.
> > >
> > > you defend an evil ideal.  the orange ideals that caused
> > > way more trouble than they were worth.
> > >
> > > and you pretend to be smart??
> > >
> > > pps
> > >
> > > --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I see where you're coming from. It's the "class war" of the
Workers
> > > > Party, without their non-sectarian principles.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > the old oranges of NI (duppers today) used to raise the spectre
> > of ira
> > > > > men and jesuits spilling over the border when they wanted to
> > rein in
> > > > > their supporters.  prior to the duppers it was the uup who,
> through
> > > > > the same technique, duped working class protestants into
> supporting
> > > > > policies that favoured the upper classes so long as the same
> > policies
> > > > > pandered to their inherent bigotry and hatred of catholics and
> > irish.
> > > > >
> > > > > NI protestants are so stupid if they continue to fall for these
> > > > > tactics.  the duppers are severely lacking in political
> accumen and
> > > > > old oranges like you need to recognise that if you are ever to
> > see the
> > > > > light.
> > > > >
> > > > > pps
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So you're criticising the "duppers" for condemning something
> > > that YOU
> > > > > > TOO think was wrong?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What WAS your point?
> > > > > > > > > the duppers... are still obsessed with catholics
> > > > > > > > > and bogeymen.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Surely you're not suggesting that these guys were beaten and
> > in one
> > > > > > case killed by "the bogeymen"? Unless you have a new name for
> > > the IRA
> > > > > > now as well?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > Paul
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Are you saying that terrorists acting as a mafia or an
> > > organised "
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > not at all.  there you go again getting all hett up
because I
> > > > > > > criticised the duppers.  you get so out of whack you can't
> > seem to
> > > > > > > read or reason.  you're so biased.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > gang, and preying on and terrorising the local
community is
> > > > > > somehow OK?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you weren't so obsessed with the notion that only "old
> > > > > > > > oranges"(whoever you mean by that today) can be
> > responsible for
> > > > > evil,
> > > > > > > > you might see what the rest of the world can.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If it distracts you from that uncomfortable reality, feel
> > > free to
> > > > > > > > issue an irrelevant rant about how you imagine "old
oranges"
> > > > > > > > terrorised people, as if that could justify this kind of
> > > criminal
> > > > > > > > brutality.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > maybe the old oranges have given up?  surrendered?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I see the duppers are trying to make a big deal out
of the
> > > > > murder in
> > > > > > > > > monaghan.  what are they thinking - that they will now
> > > refuse to
> > > > > > share
> > > > > > > > > government with SF?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > the duppers look like they are still quite deficient
> when it
> > > > > > comes to
> > > > > > > > > politics.  they are still obsessed with catholics and
> > > bogeymen.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

I wouldn't waste my time trying to furnish you with enough material to
overcome your innate ignorance of the history of NI.  you being an old
orange, you will have been well brainwashed into avoiding the truth
rather than taking an objective look at it.

the people of ireland should have been governing the whole country
since shortly after 1918 when the people of ireland voted over 75% to
determine their own destiny.  if it had not been for the religious
bigots in the NE corner, and a lot of treasonous help from others, it
would have happened as promised.  if there had been no threat of
violence from bigoted irish protestants the country could have enjoyed
normal society.  instead, the bigots filled your heads with fear and
loathing that led ultimately to spontaneous sectarian murder on the
street of belfast in 1966 that signaled the final demise of the old
orange regime.

admit it, your old orange culture simply hated people of another
Christian faith.  if you admit that, you might feel better about yourself.

I see there seems to be only you and me here.  I suppose if I stopped
posting you'd be happier.  that way Alan and his old orange buddies
could come here too.

pps

--- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> None of that explains how it can possibly be treason to
> want to remain part of the state you were born in (the UK,
> in this case).
>
> Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
> the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
> must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
> gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary state
> before the English were invited in.
>
> regards,
> Paul
>
>
> --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > it's such a blur of activity here I almost missed your post.
> >
> > the inhabitants of ireland were and still are irish.  that part which
> > was partitioned off to remain under the control of england became NI.
> >  the people there are british subjects.
> >
> > the people who caused NI to be created used treason and blackmail to
> > achieve their goal.  they were irish protestants who were consumed
> > with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by their religious and
> > political leaders. it's historic fact.
> >
> > ireland as a nation held an election in 1918 the result of which was
> > an overwhelming majority of the irish people in favour of home rule
> > for the island.  this had previously been agreed upon between the
> > dublin and london governments and would have been instituted excpet
> > for the intervention of WW1.
> >
> > in any election there will be those who voted for the majority and
> > those who voted for the minority.  most civilised peoples understand
> > this.  not however the protestant bigots in the NE corner of the
> > island.  they, like you, seemed to think they had the right to deny
> > the will of the majority in ireland while at the same time denying
> > civil and religious liberty for the minority of non-protestants in NI
> > that were stranded there following the partition of the island.
> >
> > this of course is the primary trait of an old orange for they ruled in
> > this fashion until 1972 when the english realised they had handed over
> > a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil bigots, most of whom supported
> > the ideals of the orange order and the biggest bigot of all, paisley.
> >
> > starting in 1972 the english commenced a program that would deny the
> > old oranges any further opportunities to discriminate against UK
> > citizens.  this relieved the tremendous embarrassment the whole affair
> > had become for the once proud and might english.
> >
> > your old orange credentials have been trotted out enough times here
> > and has probably caused whatever members there were to vacate.  today,
> > most enlightened people would not subscribe to your screwy ideas.  the
> > old orange culture of NI is not worth defending.  it had no moral
> > fibre to hold any argument presented by any old orange - in or out of
> > ireland.
> >
> > thankfully, today in NI non-protestants have civil and religious
> > rights equal to any UK citizen.  that wasn't the case under the old
> > oranges.  that's what gets old oranges like you so depressed.
> >
> > pps
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ignoring your abuse, for the moment, I'll just point out that...
> > >
> > > The inhabitants of what became Northern Ireland were British
subjects,
> > > so trying to remain British could hardly be treason.
> > >
> > > There was no referendum in Ireland in 1918 on national
> > > "self-determination". There was just an election to parliament. It
> > > became abundantly clear that views on where their future lay
were very
> > > different in the North East from those in the South and West.
> > >
> > > There is no law of the universe that one land mass must be a single
> > > state. There are land borders in North America and the main land
mass
> > > of Scandinavia, to name just two examples. Britain itself has been
> > > separate states, and today is a Union of kingdoms. Even Ireland was
> > > not a single kingdom in any real sense before the English were
> > invited in.
> > >
> > > Your other claims have been pre-refuted in this group many times
> > > already, so I'll not weary the members with a repetition. Feel
free to
> > > read the archives for enlightenment!
> > >
> > > Finally, I'll paraphrase you: Your tired green argument only
works if
> > > you subscribe to green principles with respect to democracy and
how it
> > > should operate :-)
> > >
> > > regards,
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm not pretending anything.  you're an old orange as
> demonstrated by
> > > > your sympathies and your ignorance.
> > > >
> > > > my views on the old orange culture you so fervently support are
> widely
> > > > held.  it was an abomination of evil and terror.
> > > >
> > > > NI was founded to appease protestant irish religious bigots who
> > > > happened to form a majority in the 6 counties of ireland they
> lovingly
> > > > renamed 'ulster'.  they used treason, blackmail and violence to
> force
> > > > the partition of the country.
> > > >
> > > > in 1918 the whole population of the undivided country voted by
over
> > > > 70% to seek national self determination.  something hundreds of
> > > > thousands of irish men and women fought in WW1 to achieve for
> similar
> > > > smaller countries elsewhere.
> > > >
> > > > your tired old orange argument only works if you subscribe to old
> > > > orange principles with respect to democracy and how it should
> operate.
> > > >   only an old orange like yourself could advocate for the will
> of the
> > > > minority so long as that minority is protestant.
> > > >
> > > > the old orange culture you hold so dearly had no respect for the
> > > > catholic minority in NI.  they suppressed them for their religious
> > > > beliefs and denied them equal civil rights to protestants.  this
> > > > carried on until 1972 when the situation became so
embarrassing for
> > > > the english they had to dismantle the whole lot.
> > > >
> > > > now the whole country of ireland is being governed by equals
in fair
> > > > and democratic elections.  many, many innocent people would have
> lived
> > > > longer lives if the bigoted irish protestants who forced the
> creation
> > > > of NI had accepted the will of democracy and developed civilised
> > > > society in normal partnership with their fellow citizens who just
> > > > happened to be believers in another Christian faith.
> > > >
> > > > fortunately, the days when 'ulster' protestants get what they
> want are
> > > > over.
> > > >
> > > > you should do some more reading of NI history and the bigots who
> > > > caused way more trouble than they were worth.  you might give
up on
> > > > fighting a losing battle.  the old orange days in NI were
> discredited
> > > > a long time ago.  you're in a severe minority with your
support for
> > > > religious discrimination of whatever proportion.  only a true old
> > > > orange could hold onto an immoral set of values by claiming that
> they
> > > > could be worse.
> > > >
> > > > pps
> > > >
> > > > ps still only you and me here.  how's it going over at your
> other site
> > > > - the one you banned me from?  is it the same old repetitive
> postings
> > > > from Alan.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > So you're still pretending that disagreeing with your just
> slightly
> > > > > extreme views makes me an "old orange". Since nobody but you
knows
> > > > > what that means, I'll try not to get too upset :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Let's try to find some points (rather than mere abuse) in your
> > > > > message, and examine them again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Northern Ireland was not founded "to divide and partition
> ireland".
> > > > > Ireland was partitioned, and the Irish Free State and Northern
> > Ireland
> > > > > were formed BECAUSE Ireland was ALREADY DIVIDED on how it wanted
> > to be
> > > > > ruled.
> > > > >
> > > > > You might well have preferred that the million or so UK
> citizens who
> > > > > formed the greater number in the north east were unceremoniously
> > > > > ejected, and forced into a confessional state. Some Unionists
> might
> > > > > have preferred the several million in the south and east to be
> > forced
> > > > > to stay in the Union with Britain. But it is not possible to
give
> > > > > everyone what they want.
> > > > >
> > > > > The settlement was that both communities would be allowed to
> express
> > > > > their identity, and live in the state to which they gave their
> > > > > alliegance. Because the Irish people as a whole did not have a
> > single
> > > > > view on how they should be governed, a line was drawn.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm pleased to see you're not justifying PIRA atrocities as
> > such, even
> > > > > while you try to absolve them of any actual responsibility.
Do you
> > > > > believe in some sort of marxist historical necessity? An
> inevitable
> > > > > revolution brought about by the contradictions inherent in the
> > system?
> > > > > It's bunk. If people kill, maim, and bomb - THEY must take
> > > > responsibility.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your attempt to shift the blame is offensive and wrong-headed:
> > > > > > "your lot started the murderous campaigns and
> > > > > > with treason and violence forced a situation..."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You seem to have difficulty reading that I condemned
> discrimination
> > > > > where it occurred in the North - so I'll say it again.
> > > > >
> > > > > I. condemn. discrimination. where. it. occurred. in. the. north.
> > > > >
> > > > > To avoid hypocrisy, I'll also condemn it in the South.
> > > > >
> > > > > You are free to disbelieve me when I point out that there
was less
> > > > > discrimination in the north than you claim (and no "holy
religious
> > > > > war"). Similarly, you can ignore any hint that discrimination
> > happened
> > > > > in the south as well. If it makes it easier, you can pretend
that
> > > > > events in the south were "irrelevant" to the views and
actions of
> > > > > people in the north. You would still be wrong, though.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Finally, you dismiss the Southern reluctance to act against the
> > IRA as
> > > > > "a grand display of old orange ignorance". Are you denying
> that the
> > > > > southern administration or its members ran guns to the IRA
> > (Haughey),
> > > > > or allowed training camps to operate with impunity in
Donegal and
> > > > > other border counties, or dragged their feet on extradition,
> > sometimes
> > > > > refusing outright to make terrorists answer for their crimes
in a
> > > > > court of law, or refused to allow hot pursuit over the
border - to
> > > > > such an extent that terrorists could sit safely in the
> Republic, and
> > > > > remotely detonate bombs against targets in Northern Ireland?
> > > > >
> > > > > It was not until the atrocities of 9/11 that the hypocritical
> double
> > > > > standard of the Irish (and US) government with regard to
> > terrorism in
> > > > > Ireland was seriously threatened.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And just because I don't have time to refute all your other
> > throw away
> > > > > accusations and misleading or selective characterisations of
> events,
> > > > > don't assume that I agree with the rest of what you wrote.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards,
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "when it was founded after the south got its autonomy"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > it was founded to divide and partition ireland.  to say it had
> > > faults
> > > > > > is a huge understatement.  NI governments are characterised
> by the
> > > > > > bigotry that directed policy.  in my book it was an evil
period
> > > during
> > > > > > the years the old orange bigots controlled NI.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > you're the one hooked on justifying old orange actions.
I'm not
> > > > > > justifying (P)IRA terrorism.  you're just raising the spectre
> > of an
> > > > > > old orange again.  you're true to form all right.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > your lot started the murderous campaigns and with treason and
> > > violence
> > > > > > forced a situation to develop that encouraged spontaneous
> > murder of
> > > > > > innocent catholics.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > from the 1920s to 1972, until it was dismantled, NI
protestants
> > > > > > supported by popular vote the continued religious
discrimination
> > > > > > enacted on their behalf against fellow UK citizens.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the actions of the (P)IRA during the war were harnessed by
> the old
> > > > > > oranges to their harsh treatment of fellow citizens.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > looks to me like you only see republicans as evil.  I don't
> > disagree
> > > > > > with you on that.  the problem though is every time I expose
> > some of
> > > > > > the evil that was unionist politics or terrorism you go
> ape-shit.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "or the Southern reluctance to act against the IRA."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > a grand display of old orange ignorance.  you really do
need to
> > > read a
> > > > > > bit more.  the forum looks a bit neglected.  there only seems
> > to be
> > > > > > the two of us.  I hope things improve before you ban me from
> > > here too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > pps
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Of course there were faults with the Northern Irish
government
> > > > between
> > > > > > > the 1920s, when it was founded after the south got its
> > > autonomy, and
> > > > > > > 1972, when it was taken over by Westminster -
particularly if
> > > we are
> > > > > > > judging by the standards of today.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But it is a travesty to pretend that such faults as
there were
> > > > in any
> > > > > > > way justified, much less forced, the IRA's murderous
> campaign to
> > > > > > > undermine the wishes of the greater number of Northern
> Ireland's
> > > > > > > citizens to live at peace in the Union.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It would be an equal travesty to maintain that southern
> > > > collusion with
> > > > > > > the IRA, or such institutional sectarianism as existed
in the
> > > > southern
> > > > > > > state, justified the loyalist bombings there. That could not
> > > even be
> > > > > > > justified by IRA atrocities in the North, or the Southern
> > > reluctance
> > > > > > > to act against the IRA.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you somehow conceive that these views make me an
> > apologist for
> > > > > > > bigotry, that is your right and privilege. It's still
> > tendentious
> > > > > > > nonsense though, and you really shouldn't assume that I
agree.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your monomaniacal insistence that all the evils of the past
> > > century
> > > > > > > can be laid at the door of the community of which you
are not
> > > a part
> > > > > > > seems like a self-serving rationalisation, wilful
> blindness, and
> > > > > > > smacks not a little of the type of bigotry you see in
everyone
> > > else.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Do you have any ideas on peacemaking beyond getting all
> > > > protestants to
> > > > > > > wear sackcloth and ashes for ever?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > you picked the title, not me.  you define it, not me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > as for useful discussion, I'm at a loss.  you hardly
> ever come
> > > > here
> > > > > > > > and when you do it's mostly to chastise me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > the old orange regime was terrible.  it was morally
> > bankrupt and
> > > > > evil
> > > > > > > > but was kept alive too long.  it eventually got NI its
> recent
> > > > war.
> > > > > > > > that's what happens when morally bankrupt regimes exist.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm not impressed with your observation since you exist
> within
> > > > > an old
> > > > > > > > orange bubble that hasn't burst yet.  this is what is
> still a
> > > > > problem
> > > > > > > > in NI.  too many brain-washed and ignorant old oranges.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >  --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Patrick asks "why not". If someone sincerely
believes that
> > > > > "Peace in
> > > > > > > > > Northern Ireland" is the same as "why one side is are
> not to
> > > > > > blame at
> > > > > > > > > all, and the other lot caused it all", then it is hard
> > to see
> > > > > he or
> > > > > > > > > she could join in any useful discussion of peace, beyond
> > some
> > > > > > kind of
> > > > > > > > > futile "'aren't "they" terrible', mutual back-slapping
> > circle.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As for using the phrase "the accepted opinion of many
> > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > people" to bolster his personal interpretation of the
> > > > > conflict, I'll
> > > > > > > > > point out that the consensus among reasonable
observers is
> > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > "war" in Northern Ireland was political, rather than
> > > > > religious. The
> > > > > > > > > situation was clearly inflamed by ethnic tensions, but
> there
> > > > > was no
> > > > > > > > > religious war as such. As opposed to the 16th century,
> > > > nobody was
> > > > > > > > > killed over their views on, say, transubstantiation. The
> > > > > > minority who
> > > > > > > > > tried periodically throughout the 20th century to
> > overturn the
> > > > > > > > > settlement reached in the 1920s were fighting about
> > > politics and
> > > > > > land.
> > > > > > > > > Those who opposed them were defending their
> government, and
> > > > > > resisting
> > > > > > > > > encroachment by what at the time was a backward-looking,
> > > > > > impoverished,
> > > > > > > > > and censorious state.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Things have moved on, fortunately. Citizens on both
sides
> > > of the
> > > > > > > > > border are better off. And practically nobody is
trying to
> > > > impose
> > > > > > > > > their will by murder and bombing.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Now, if we can mop up the remaining thugs as they try to
> > hold
> > > > > on to
> > > > > > > > > their power by organising crime empires, and if we can
> > > > improve the
> > > > > > > > > democracy of the structures of government, and avoid
> > > losing our
> > > > > > > > > hard-won freedoms to inflated hysteria over "Islamic"
> > > terrorism
> > > > > > (or US
> > > > > > > > > "imperialism"), if we can address factors that
threaten us
> > > > > all, like
> > > > > > > > > institutional global inequalities and global warming,
> > > things may
> > > > > > > > > continue to improve.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > why not Paul?  if you spent some time here we just
> > might get
> > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > debate but you seem reluctant to challenge the
accepted
> > > > > opinion of
> > > > > > > > > > many reasonable people that if the old oranges of
NI (of
> > > which
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > are still toooooo many) had dropped their
religious war
> > > on RCs
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > would have been no war recently.  if ignorant bigots
> like
> > > > > paisley
> > > > > > > > > > hadn't aroused ancient hatreds among his sect they
would
> > > > > have been
> > > > > > > > > > more satisfied now than they are having lost the
> religious
> > > > > battle.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> > notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I'm off on holidays. Feel free to discuss "peace in
> > > Northern
> > > > > > > > Ireland"
> > > > > > > > > > > while I'm out.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Note to Patrick - that is not NECESSARILY the same
> > as "why
> > > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > > > > is the fault of the other side".
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

paul, it's well known that you are a defender of bigots like paisley
and the orange order.  both have been pissed that the old orange
red-handled rattle was taken away from them and chucked back into the
irish sea where it came from.

you have studiously justified the discrimination inflicted upon NI
catholics by the orange order dominated governments that first showed
up in the early 20s and were massively supported by NI protestants
until 1972 when the whole lot was dismantled.

your old orange legacy stinks of bigotry, racism and unionist terror
that was tacitly approved of by people like you.

you aren't as smart as me or else you would not be clinging to such a
lost cause.

pps



--- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Are you reading the same group as the rest of us?
>
> > you are still peeved that the bigots in NI were
> > denied the ability to continue to discriminate
> > against UK citizens who were catholic.
>
> Not sure how you get that from my statement that there
> was discrimination and it was wrong, but maybe that's
> because I'm not as smart as you?
>
> regards,
> Paul
>
> --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > whatever floats your boat Paul.
> >
> > all I can see is that you are still peeved that the bigots
> > in NI were denied the ability to continue to discriminate
> > against UK citizens who were catholic.
> >
> > you defend an evil ideal.  the orange ideals that caused
> > way more trouble than they were worth.
> >
> > and you pretend to be smart??
> >
> > pps
> >
> > --- notmyopinion <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I see where you're coming from. It's the "class war" of the Workers
> > > Party, without their non-sectarian principles.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > the old oranges of NI (duppers today) used to raise the spectre
> of ira
> > > > men and jesuits spilling over the border when they wanted to
> rein in
> > > > their supporters.  prior to the duppers it was the uup who,
through
> > > > the same technique, duped working class protestants into
supporting
> > > > policies that favoured the upper classes so long as the same
> policies
> > > > pandered to their inherent bigotry and hatred of catholics and
> irish.
> > > >
> > > > NI protestants are so stupid if they continue to fall for these
> > > > tactics.  the duppers are severely lacking in political
accumen and
> > > > old oranges like you need to recognise that if you are ever to
> see the
> > > > light.
> > > >
> > > > pps
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > So you're criticising the "duppers" for condemning something
> > that YOU
> > > > > TOO think was wrong?
> > > > >
> > > > > What WAS your point?
> > > > > > > > the duppers... are still obsessed with catholics
> > > > > > > > and bogeymen.
> > > > >
> > > > > Surely you're not suggesting that these guys were beaten and
> in one
> > > > > case killed by "the bogeymen"? Unless you have a new name for
> > the IRA
> > > > > now as well?
> > > > >
> > > > > regards,
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Are you saying that terrorists acting as a mafia or an
> > organised "
> > > > > >
> > > > > > not at all.  there you go again getting all hett up because I
> > > > > > criticised the duppers.  you get so out of whack you can't
> seem to
> > > > > > read or reason.  you're so biased.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > pps
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > gang, and preying on and terrorising the local community is
> > > > > somehow OK?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you weren't so obsessed with the notion that only "old
> > > > > > > oranges"(whoever you mean by that today) can be
> responsible for
> > > > evil,
> > > > > > > you might see what the rest of the world can.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If it distracts you from that uncomfortable reality, feel
> > free to
> > > > > > > issue an irrelevant rant about how you imagine "old oranges"
> > > > > > > terrorised people, as if that could justify this kind of
> > criminal
> > > > > > > brutality.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > maybe the old oranges have given up?  surrendered?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I see the duppers are trying to make a big deal out of the
> > > > murder in
> > > > > > > > monaghan.  what are they thinking - that they will now
> > refuse to
> > > > > share
> > > > > > > > government with SF?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > the duppers look like they are still quite deficient
when it
> > > > > comes to
> > > > > > > > politics.  they are still obsessed with catholics and
> > bogeymen.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

None of that explains how it can possibly be treason to
want to remain part of the state you were born in (the UK,
in this case).

Nor have you explained on what on what tablets of stone
the gods decreed that the geographical entity of Ireland
must be governed as a single political entity. Or why the
gods didn't seem too bothered about it being a unitary state
before the English were invited in.

regards,
Paul


--- paddy221666 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> it's such a blur of activity here I almost missed your post.
>
> the inhabitants of ireland were and still are irish.  that part which
> was partitioned off to remain under the control of england became NI.
>  the people there are british subjects.
>
> the people who caused NI to be created used treason and blackmail to
> achieve their goal.  they were irish protestants who were consumed
> with irrational fear and bigotry fuelled by their religious and
> political leaders. it's historic fact.
>
> ireland as a nation held an election in 1918 the result of which was
> an overwhelming majority of the irish people in favour of home rule
> for the island.  this had previously been agreed upon between the
> dublin and london governments and would have been instituted excpet
> for the intervention of WW1.
>
> in any election there will be those who voted for the majority and
> those who voted for the minority.  most civilised peoples understand
> this.  not however the protestant bigots in the NE corner of the
> island.  they, like you, seemed to think they had the right to deny
> the will of the majority in ireland while at the same time denying
> civil and religious liberty for the minority of non-protestants in NI
> that were stranded there following the partition of the island.
>
> this of course is the primary trait of an old orange for they ruled in
> this fashion until 1972 when the english realised they had handed over
> a portion of the UK to a bunch of evil bigots, most of whom supported
> the ideals of the orange order and the biggest bigot of all, paisley.
>
> starting in 1972 the english commenced a program that would deny the
> old oranges any further opportunities to discriminate against UK
> citizens.  this relieved the tremendous embarrassment the whole affair
> had become for the once proud and might english.
>
> your old orange credentials have been trotted out enough times here
> and has probably caused whatever members there were to vacate.  today,
> most enlightened people would not subscribe to your screwy ideas.  the
> old orange culture of NI is not worth defending.  it had no moral
> fibre to hold any argument presented by any old orange - in or out of
> ireland.
>
> thankfully, today in NI non-protestants have civil and religious
> rights equal to any UK citizen.  that wasn't the case under the old
> oranges.  that's what gets old oranges like you so depressed.
>
> pps
>
>
>
> --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Ignoring your abuse, for the moment, I'll just point out that...
> >
> > The inhabitants of what became Northern Ireland were British subjects,
> > so trying to remain British could hardly be treason.
> >
> > There was no referendum in Ireland in 1918 on national
> > "self-determination". There was just an election to parliament. It
> > became abundantly clear that views on where their future lay were very
> > different in the North East from those in the South and West.
> >
> > There is no law of the universe that one land mass must be a single
> > state. There are land borders in North America and the main land mass
> > of Scandinavia, to name just two examples. Britain itself has been
> > separate states, and today is a Union of kingdoms. Even Ireland was
> > not a single kingdom in any real sense before the English were
> invited in.
> >
> > Your other claims have been pre-refuted in this group many times
> > already, so I'll not weary the members with a repetition. Feel free to
> > read the archives for enlightenment!
> >
> > Finally, I'll paraphrase you: Your tired green argument only works if
> > you subscribe to green principles with respect to democracy and how it
> > should operate :-)
> >
> > regards,
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm not pretending anything.  you're an old orange as
demonstrated by
> > > your sympathies and your ignorance.
> > >
> > > my views on the old orange culture you so fervently support are
widely
> > > held.  it was an abomination of evil and terror.
> > >
> > > NI was founded to appease protestant irish religious bigots who
> > > happened to form a majority in the 6 counties of ireland they
lovingly
> > > renamed 'ulster'.  they used treason, blackmail and violence to
force
> > > the partition of the country.
> > >
> > > in 1918 the whole population of the undivided country voted by over
> > > 70% to seek national self determination.  something hundreds of
> > > thousands of irish men and women fought in WW1 to achieve for
similar
> > > smaller countries elsewhere.
> > >
> > > your tired old orange argument only works if you subscribe to old
> > > orange principles with respect to democracy and how it should
operate.
> > >   only an old orange like yourself could advocate for the will
of the
> > > minority so long as that minority is protestant.
> > >
> > > the old orange culture you hold so dearly had no respect for the
> > > catholic minority in NI.  they suppressed them for their religious
> > > beliefs and denied them equal civil rights to protestants.  this
> > > carried on until 1972 when the situation became so embarrassing for
> > > the english they had to dismantle the whole lot.
> > >
> > > now the whole country of ireland is being governed by equals in fair
> > > and democratic elections.  many, many innocent people would have
lived
> > > longer lives if the bigoted irish protestants who forced the
creation
> > > of NI had accepted the will of democracy and developed civilised
> > > society in normal partnership with their fellow citizens who just
> > > happened to be believers in another Christian faith.
> > >
> > > fortunately, the days when 'ulster' protestants get what they
want are
> > > over.
> > >
> > > you should do some more reading of NI history and the bigots who
> > > caused way more trouble than they were worth.  you might give up on
> > > fighting a losing battle.  the old orange days in NI were
discredited
> > > a long time ago.  you're in a severe minority with your support for
> > > religious discrimination of whatever proportion.  only a true old
> > > orange could hold onto an immoral set of values by claiming that
they
> > > could be worse.
> > >
> > > pps
> > >
> > > ps still only you and me here.  how's it going over at your
other site
> > > - the one you banned me from?  is it the same old repetitive
postings
> > > from Alan.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > So you're still pretending that disagreeing with your just
slightly
> > > > extreme views makes me an "old orange". Since nobody but you knows
> > > > what that means, I'll try not to get too upset :)
> > > >
> > > > Let's try to find some points (rather than mere abuse) in your
> > > > message, and examine them again.
> > > >
> > > > Northern Ireland was not founded "to divide and partition
ireland".
> > > > Ireland was partitioned, and the Irish Free State and Northern
> Ireland
> > > > were formed BECAUSE Ireland was ALREADY DIVIDED on how it wanted
> to be
> > > > ruled.
> > > >
> > > > You might well have preferred that the million or so UK
citizens who
> > > > formed the greater number in the north east were unceremoniously
> > > > ejected, and forced into a confessional state. Some Unionists
might
> > > > have preferred the several million in the south and east to be
> forced
> > > > to stay in the Union with Britain. But it is not possible to give
> > > > everyone what they want.
> > > >
> > > > The settlement was that both communities would be allowed to
express
> > > > their identity, and live in the state to which they gave their
> > > > alliegance. Because the Irish people as a whole did not have a
> single
> > > > view on how they should be governed, a line was drawn.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm pleased to see you're not justifying PIRA atrocities as
> such, even
> > > > while you try to absolve them of any actual responsibility. Do you
> > > > believe in some sort of marxist historical necessity? An
inevitable
> > > > revolution brought about by the contradictions inherent in the
> system?
> > > > It's bunk. If people kill, maim, and bomb - THEY must take
> > > responsibility.
> > > >
> > > > Your attempt to shift the blame is offensive and wrong-headed:
> > > > > "your lot started the murderous campaigns and
> > > > > with treason and violence forced a situation..."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You seem to have difficulty reading that I condemned
discrimination
> > > > where it occurred in the North - so I'll say it again.
> > > >
> > > > I. condemn. discrimination. where. it. occurred. in. the. north.
> > > >
> > > > To avoid hypocrisy, I'll also condemn it in the South.
> > > >
> > > > You are free to disbelieve me when I point out that there was less
> > > > discrimination in the north than you claim (and no "holy religious
> > > > war"). Similarly, you can ignore any hint that discrimination
> happened
> > > > in the south as well. If it makes it easier, you can pretend that
> > > > events in the south were "irrelevant" to the views and actions of
> > > > people in the north. You would still be wrong, though.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Finally, you dismiss the Southern reluctance to act against the
> IRA as
> > > > "a grand display of old orange ignorance". Are you denying
that the
> > > > southern administration or its members ran guns to the IRA
> (Haughey),
> > > > or allowed training camps to operate with impunity in Donegal and
> > > > other border counties, or dragged their feet on extradition,
> sometimes
> > > > refusing outright to make terrorists answer for their crimes in a
> > > > court of law, or refused to allow hot pursuit over the border - to
> > > > such an extent that terrorists could sit safely in the
Republic, and
> > > > remotely detonate bombs against targets in Northern Ireland?
> > > >
> > > > It was not until the atrocities of 9/11 that the hypocritical
double
> > > > standard of the Irish (and US) government with regard to
> terrorism in
> > > > Ireland was seriously threatened.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And just because I don't have time to refute all your other
> throw away
> > > > accusations and misleading or selective characterisations of
events,
> > > > don't assume that I agree with the rest of what you wrote.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "when it was founded after the south got its autonomy"
> > > > >
> > > > > it was founded to divide and partition ireland.  to say it had
> > faults
> > > > > is a huge understatement.  NI governments are characterised
by the
> > > > > bigotry that directed policy.  in my book it was an evil period
> > during
> > > > > the years the old orange bigots controlled NI.
> > > > >
> > > > > you're the one hooked on justifying old orange actions.  I'm not
> > > > > justifying (P)IRA terrorism.  you're just raising the spectre
> of an
> > > > > old orange again.  you're true to form all right.
> > > > >
> > > > > your lot started the murderous campaigns and with treason and
> > violence
> > > > > forced a situation to develop that encouraged spontaneous
> murder of
> > > > > innocent catholics.
> > > > >
> > > > > from the 1920s to 1972, until it was dismantled, NI protestants
> > > > > supported by popular vote the continued religious discrimination
> > > > > enacted on their behalf against fellow UK citizens.
> > > > >
> > > > > the actions of the (P)IRA during the war were harnessed by
the old
> > > > > oranges to their harsh treatment of fellow citizens.
> > > > >
> > > > > looks to me like you only see republicans as evil.  I don't
> disagree
> > > > > with you on that.  the problem though is every time I expose
> some of
> > > > > the evil that was unionist politics or terrorism you go
ape-shit.
> > > > >
> > > > > "or the Southern reluctance to act against the IRA."
> > > > >
> > > > > a grand display of old orange ignorance.  you really do need to
> > read a
> > > > > bit more.  the forum looks a bit neglected.  there only seems
> to be
> > > > > the two of us.  I hope things improve before you ban me from
> > here too.
> > > > >
> > > > > pps
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Of course there were faults with the Northern Irish government
> > > between
> > > > > > the 1920s, when it was founded after the south got its
> > autonomy, and
> > > > > > 1972, when it was taken over by Westminster - particularly if
> > we are
> > > > > > judging by the standards of today.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But it is a travesty to pretend that such faults as there were
> > > in any
> > > > > > way justified, much less forced, the IRA's murderous
campaign to
> > > > > > undermine the wishes of the greater number of Northern
Ireland's
> > > > > > citizens to live at peace in the Union.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It would be an equal travesty to maintain that southern
> > > collusion with
> > > > > > the IRA, or such institutional sectarianism as existed in the
> > > southern
> > > > > > state, justified the loyalist bombings there. That could not
> > even be
> > > > > > justified by IRA atrocities in the North, or the Southern
> > reluctance
> > > > > > to act against the IRA.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you somehow conceive that these views make me an
> apologist for
> > > > > > bigotry, that is your right and privilege. It's still
> tendentious
> > > > > > nonsense though, and you really shouldn't assume that I agree.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your monomaniacal insistence that all the evils of the past
> > century
> > > > > > can be laid at the door of the community of which you are not
> > a part
> > > > > > seems like a self-serving rationalisation, wilful
blindness, and
> > > > > > smacks not a little of the type of bigotry you see in everyone
> > else.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you have any ideas on peacemaking beyond getting all
> > > protestants to
> > > > > > wear sackcloth and ashes for ever?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > Paul
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > you picked the title, not me.  you define it, not me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > as for useful discussion, I'm at a loss.  you hardly
ever come
> > > here
> > > > > > > and when you do it's mostly to chastise me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > the old orange regime was terrible.  it was morally
> bankrupt and
> > > > evil
> > > > > > > but was kept alive too long.  it eventually got NI its
recent
> > > war.
> > > > > > > that's what happens when morally bankrupt regimes exist.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm not impressed with your observation since you exist
within
> > > > an old
> > > > > > > orange bubble that hasn't burst yet.  this is what is
still a
> > > > problem
> > > > > > > in NI.  too many brain-washed and ignorant old oranges.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >  --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com, notmyopinion
> > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Patrick asks "why not". If someone sincerely believes that
> > > > "Peace in
> > > > > > > > Northern Ireland" is the same as "why one side is are
not to
> > > > > blame at
> > > > > > > > all, and the other lot caused it all", then it is hard
> to see
> > > > he or
> > > > > > > > she could join in any useful discussion of peace, beyond
> some
> > > > > kind of
> > > > > > > > futile "'aren't "they" terrible', mutual back-slapping
> circle.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As for using the phrase "the accepted opinion of many
> > reasonable
> > > > > > > > people" to bolster his personal interpretation of the
> > > > conflict, I'll
> > > > > > > > point out that the consensus among reasonable observers is
> > > > that the
> > > > > > > > "war" in Northern Ireland was political, rather than
> > > > religious. The
> > > > > > > > situation was clearly inflamed by ethnic tensions, but
there
> > > > was no
> > > > > > > > religious war as such. As opposed to the 16th century,
> > > nobody was
> > > > > > > > killed over their views on, say, transubstantiation. The
> > > > > minority who
> > > > > > > > tried periodically throughout the 20th century to
> overturn the
> > > > > > > > settlement reached in the 1920s were fighting about
> > politics and
> > > > > land.
> > > > > > > > Those who opposed them were defending their
government, and
> > > > > resisting
> > > > > > > > encroachment by what at the time was a backward-looking,
> > > > > impoverished,
> > > > > > > > and censorious state.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Things have moved on, fortunately. Citizens on both sides
> > of the
> > > > > > > > border are better off. And practically nobody is trying to
> > > impose
> > > > > > > > their will by murder and bombing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now, if we can mop up the remaining thugs as they try to
> hold
> > > > on to
> > > > > > > > their power by organising crime empires, and if we can
> > > improve the
> > > > > > > > democracy of the structures of government, and avoid
> > losing our
> > > > > > > > hard-won freedoms to inflated hysteria over "Islamic"
> > terrorism
> > > > > (or US
> > > > > > > > "imperialism"), if we can address factors that threaten us
> > > > all, like
> > > > > > > > institutional global inequalities and global warming,
> > things may
> > > > > > > > continue to improve.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- paddy221666 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > why not Paul?  if you spent some time here we just
> might get
> > > > some
> > > > > > > > > debate but you seem reluctant to challenge the accepted
> > > > opinion of
> > > > > > > > > many reasonable people that if the old oranges of NI (of
> > which
> > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > are still toooooo many) had dropped their religious war
> > on RCs
> > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > would have been no war recently.  if ignorant bigots
like
> > > > paisley
> > > > > > > > > hadn't aroused ancient hatreds among his sect they would
> > > > have been
> > > > > > > > > more satisfied now than they are having lost the
religious
> > > > battle.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > pps
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In peaceinnorthernireland@yahoogroups.com,
> notmyopinion
> > > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'm off on holidays. Feel free to discuss "peace in
> > Northern
> > > > > > > Ireland"
> > > > > > > > > > while I'm out.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Note to Patrick - that is not NECESSARILY the same
> as "why
> > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > > > is the fault of the other side".
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>