was reading an article in The Marsh & McLennan
(a huge world wide insurance company that owns a
major investment company, among other things) company
magazine that the Euro (Europen nations adopt a single
currency) will go live 1/1/99. The Union consists of
Austria, Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Italy,
Ireland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Portugal and Spain,
and provisions are being made to make it easy for the
United Kingdom to join as well. When the Euro monitory
system goes into effect, it will exist as an ELECTRONIC
NON-CASH CURRENCY used in stock, bond and currency
marketsm as well as for trade. On 1/1/2002 Euro bills and
coins will be put into circulation for everyday use and
will become the sole accepted currency. The Euro will
most likely advance the integration of business across
Europe, including the United Kingdom and will change the
way business is conducted in Europe by encouraging
trade & competition. The boost to commerce may also
force Europe to examine an array of political and
cultural issues, according to the article. Over the next
few years it is expected to have an impact on
everybody. Euro will challenge the dominance of the US
dollar. While it will ease volatility in the world
market, this instability may ultimately cause higher
interest rates which will greatly affect the "global
economy". With the creation of a single, integrated capital
market in Europe, companies will no longer have to rely
on banks for financing. 7/98 the London Stock
xchange and Deutsche Borse announced plans to develop a
joint electronic trading platform for euro-denominated
debt and equity. The european banking inductry will
face a period of rapid consolidation. The euro will
lead to consolidation in other industries. The market
created by the euro may ultimately only have room for one
or two large defense contractors or train
manufacturers, for example. Manufacturers will also consolidate
to a lesser degree. The new currency also poses
significant cultural and political implications for Europe. A
cultural shift is expected. The euro may ultimately lead
to greater harmony in Europe, to the point where a
federal-style government could be established to oversee such
matters as defense and transportation. <br><br> I don't
know about you, but I see this as a clear precurser of
takeover by the Antichrist. Whoever controls the economy
will also control<br> weapons, transportation, and
possible even communication vehicles. If the Y2K bug
creates economic chaos, and the Union is seen as stable,
people will be seduced to fall in with the crowd and
join together in a true global cashless monitary
system. That could lead to a world debit card or chip
wherein all purchases could be tracked, and anyone who
didn't have it couldn't buy, sell, ect. Sound farmiliar?
<br><br>In His most precious love, Mary

hanks Mary, for posting the article. I was
totally unaware of this and consider such an ID card a
serious threat to our privacy and our security.<br><br>I
posted a link to the Jeremiah Project you mentioned on
the links page. I've also posted a number of other
links there and would encourage others to post any good
end-time links they know of too.<br><br>Thanks,<br>CK

hat the law orders consultation" with the American
Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators. AAMVA has long
urged using driver's licenses, with Social Security
numbers and digital fingerprinting, as a de facto
national ID card that would enable the government to track
everyone's movements throughout North America. <br> The
welfare reform act requires that, in order to receive
federal welfare funds, states must collect Social
Security numbers from "commercial driver's license"
applicants. The Balanced Budget Act of 1997, under the
pretense of making "technical corrections" to the welfare
act, deleted the word "commercial," thereby applying
the requirement to all driver's license applicants.
<br> The Deadbeat Dads act established a federal
instant check" New Hires Directory. Employers are now
required to "screen" every new employee or
job<br>applicant against the new government database of child
support order obligees. <br> Under the Brady Act,
starting Dec. 1, no one will be allowed to buy a gun
without an "instant ground check" with various government
databases. <br> The New Jersey Legislature gave up last week
trying to pass Governor Christine Whitman's new driver's
license called "Access New Jersey" containing a computer
chip capable of storing large amounts of personal
data. The bill was derailed by a left-right coalition
complaining that Big Mother was trying to play the role of
Big Brother. <br> On June 17, the Department of
Transportation announced proposed regulations for the
Immigration Act that will start the process of requiring all
drivers' licenses to display a Social Security number by
Oct. 1, 2000. These regulations will overturn the
Privacy Act, which provides that "It shall be unlawful
for any Federal, State or local government agency to
deny to any individual any right, benefit, or
privilege provided by law because of such individual's
refusal<br>to disclose his Social Security account number."
<br> If you don't want the Federal Government to
convert driver's licenses into a national I.D. card that
will allow Big Brother to build a computerized dossier
on every American, rush your comments by August 3 to
Docket Management, Room PL-401, National Highway Traffic
Safety Administration, Nassif Building, 400 Seventh St.,
S.W., Washington, D.C. 20590 marked Docket No.
NHTSA-98-3945." <br><br>I find this web site to be quite
informative. What do you think about all this? Thanks for your
prayers for my husband. In His precious love, Mary

his is an excerpt from the Jerahiah Project Home
Page: "Unknown to most Americans, coordinated plans are
well underway to give the Federal Government the power
to input personal information on all Americans onto
a government database. The computer will record our
school, business, medical, financial, and personal
activities, and track our movements as we travel about the
United States. <br> These plans were authorized by the
so-called conservative Congress and are eagerly implemented
and expanded by the Clinton Administration liberals.
They plan to force all Americans to carry an I.D. card
linked to a federal database, without which we will not
be able to drive a car, get a job, board a plane,
enter a hospital emergency room or school, have a bank
account, cash a check, buy a gun, or have access to
government benefits such as Social Security, Medicare, or
Medicaid. <br> Of course, all that information on a
government database means the end of privacy as we know it.
Daily actions we all take for granted will henceforth
be recorded, monitored, tracked, and contingent on
showing The Card. <br> Legislative authority for these
dramatic changes in what we endearingly call the American
way of life was buried in several bills passed by
Republicans and signed by Clinton, including the 1996 Illegal
Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act
(especially Section 656(b)), the 1996 Personal Responsibility
and Work Opportunity Reform Act (known as Welfare
reform), the 1998 Child Support Performance and Incentive
Act (known as Deadbeat Dads), and the 1993 Brady
Bill. <br> The Immigration Act prohibits the use of
state driver's licenses after Oct. 1, 2000 unless they
contain Social Security numbers as the unique numeric
identifier "that can be read visually or by electronic
means." The act requires all driver's licenses to conform
to regulations promulgated by the Secretary of
Transportation. <br> The Immigration Act orders the development
of a smart card that "shall employ technologies that
provide security features, such as magnetic stripes,
holograms, and integrated circuits." This magnetic stripe is
expected soon to contain a digitized fingerprint, retina
scan, voice print, and other biometric identifiers, and
it will leave an electronic trail every time you use
it."

luddbott, I don't know if you're aware of this
but the prophecy of Revelation 1:7 concerning Jesus
coming back again and everyone seeing him was written in
A.D. 90. The event you describe as fulfilling that
prophecy happened in A.D. 70. If the event happened 20
years before the prophecy then it's not much of a
prophecy. Also, the other events of Matthew 24 which you
believe were fulfilled in A.D. 70 are again prophesied in
Revelation 6 which was also written 20 years after the
supposed fulfillment. Compare the events of Revelation 6
with Matthew 24 and you'll see what I mean.<br><br>CK

elcome to the club. I agree with what you said
100%. When Jesus returns to rapture his saints it will
be seen worldwide (Matthew 24:30-31). Actually it
occurs right after the sun is darkened (Matthew 24:29)
so the whole world will be plunged into darkness and
the only light will be the light of the glory of
Jesus as he returns. He said his coming would be like
lightning that comes from the east and is visible even in
the west (Matthew 24:27). The idea of a secret coming
is foreign to Scripture.<br><br>Also, what you said
about his coming being like a thief meaning he would
come unexpectedly upon those who were unprepared is
right on the money. I Thess. 5:1-3 speaks about that.
The unbelievers will be caught by surprise and will
go into a time of God's wrath called "the Day of the
Lord."<br><br>Hope to hear from you again on this,<br>CK

s I understand this phrase, this is the better
translation. This certainly did happen in the generation Jesus
said it would. He came on the clouds, as prophesied in
Acts 1:11 and Rev. 1:7.<br>I know this is unfamiliar
to most of you,<br>but let me run by you a short
passage from Josephus written about the days just before
the horrific end:<br>"a certain prodigious and
incredible phenomenon<br>appeared: I suppose the account of
it would seem to a fable, were it not related by
those who saw it, and were not the events that followed
it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such
signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of
soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the
clouds, and surrounding of cities." "Wars of the Jews"
(VI:V:3)<br>His Roman counterpart Tacitus gave a very similar
account. (Histories, v.13)<br>At this point, of course,
the elect had already been gathered and had
miraculously escaped to safety at Pella, as told in
Eusebius.<br>Why aren't THESE things taught in Sunday
School?<br>bluddbott

ello, I have just joined this club. While
scanning the message board I noticed much talk about the
rapture. I am confused about the issue adn dont even know
the arguments for it, but from my own personal bible
study, I have found that, whenever the return af Christ
was mentioned, it was referred to as a great and
worldwide event, and not one conducted in secret. When
Jesus spoke of himself "coming as a thief" I thought he
meant that he would come unexpectedly for those who
were unprepeared to meet him. Please inform me of your
views on this subject.<br><br>davikend

f Jesus came back again in A.D. 70 then how do
you explain Matthew 24:30-31 which says,<br><br>"At
that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in
the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn.
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of
the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send
his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will
gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of
the heavens to the other."<br><br>Did all the nations
see Christ return in A.D. 70? Notice it says they
will "see" him.<br><br>Did all the nations mourn at
the return of Christ in A.D. 70?<br><br>Did Jesus
send his angels to gather together his elect in A.D.
70?<br><br>And according to the verses you mentioned in Rev. &
Zech. "every eye will see him." Did that happen in A.D.
70?<br><br>I appreciate your comments but I think the
preterist position has serious flaws. Hope to hear from you
again soon.<br><br>CK

know this is strange to hear, but please attend
me awhile. Rev. 1:7 combines a verse in Daniel to
one in Zechariah to the following effect:<br>"Look,
he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see
him, EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM; and all the tribes of
the land will mourn because of him. So shall it be.
Amen."<br>Compare this to a passage from Josephus describing<br>the
last days right before the Temple's destruction. "a
certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I
suppose the account of it would seem a fable, were it not
related by those <br>who saw it, and were not the events
that followed<br>it of so considerable a nature as to
deserve such<br>signals; for, before sun-setting,
chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen
running about among the clouds, and surrounding of
cities." (Wars of the Jews VI:V:3) One may also read of a
very similar occurence seen by the Roman troops and
recorded by the secular historian Tacitus.<br>Jesus was
not a false prophet when he said, "Behold, I am
coming quickly! My reward is with me..." (Rev.22:12)
<br>I recommend a thorough look at all the time
passages in Revelation, Matthew 24, and others concerning
the "last days". They've come and gone, my
brothers.<br>There obviously is much more to be said on
this.<br>bluddbott

o get the ball rolling I'd like to encourage
everyone to read Matthew 24. This chapter is often called
the Olivet Discourse because Jesus spoke it while on
the Mount of Olives. It is all about his second
coming - his Parousia. After reading it we could discuss
it. For example:<br><br>1. Are these events still
future?<br>2. If so, do they take place in the
Tribulation?<br>3. What is the Abomination of Desolation in v.
15?<br>4. Is the coming of Jesus in verses 30-31 the
Rapture? Armaggeddon? <br><br>Looking forward to hearing
from everyone on this.<br>Hope you all had a Happy
Thanksgiving.<br>CK

appy thanksgiving to all, except the turkey!

i Mary, <br>My wife and I have begun to prepare
for the possible problems that may come with the Y2K
bug. We're stocking up food, lamp oil, etc.. We're not
going overboard or anything but in case things get bad
we want to at least have food and heat for the
winter. Preparing for this has made me think a lot about
end times and what we will do when we can't buy or
sell without the mark. I think believers will have to
go "underground" and support each other. <br><br>If
anyone is interested in Y2K preparations you can learn a
lot at <a href=http://millennia-bcs.com/
target=new>http://millennia-bcs.com/</a> <br><br>You
mentioned a national identity card proposed by President
Clinton. I haven't heard of that. Could you tell us
more?<br><br>I'll be praying for your husband,<br>CK

i, You guys sound so knowledgeable. From what I
have read, it seems to me that rapture may come about
half way through the tribulation, before the wrath or
day of our Lord. <br><br>I have read a lot about the
"New World Order" and Euro currency, and the coming
cashless society. Also about the magnetic strips they will
be putting into all new design bills that can track
money movement. My concern is the passage in
Revelations that says if you don't accept the mark of the
beast you cant buy or sell, etc. It seems like things
will certainly move that way if Clinton's proposed
national identity card is also used as a debit card. If
the mark of the beast manifests itself in this
manner, how do we prepare for refusing it? Will
Christians have to go "underground" or hide like the
Christians did in the catacombs so many centurites ago?
<br><br>What do you guys think about all this? Am I paranoid?
The bible says to have our lamps filled with oil to
greet the bridegroom. Surely this means that
preparations will need to be made (in addition to preparing
our souls by accepting Jesus and living according to
his commands.<br><br>By the way, please pray for my
husband. He does not believe in God or Jesus Christ as our
Savior. I have whitnessed to him many times and pray for
him. I hope he sees the light before it is too late.
<br><br>It is good to have you guys to talk to about the
rapture, tribulation, end days and my beloved Jesus,
especially since I can't talk to my husband about
it.<br><br>Have a prayerful Thanksgiving everyone. <br><br>In HIS
love, Mary Thomas

i to all,<br>I am very tired at the moment but I have time to say Hi and God
bless!  I am looking forward to chattin with u when your on line.<br>Thanks for
the Invite!<br>Yours in HIM<br>Tony

would like to greet you all in the name of our
Lord Jesus and welcome you to the club. I'm excited
about discussing the coming of our Lord with others
here. I ask only that everyone please remember that
even though we may have different views on end-time
events we are still brothers and sisters in the Lord. So
regardless of when Jesus comes we will go to be with him. So
please remember that these are your brothers & sisters
your talking to, not your enemies. I bring this up
because I have seen Christians fight over these issues.
This is not a forum for fighting, but rather for
discussion, encouragement, and sharing.<br><br>May the Lord
bless you all,<br>CK

take it from your post that you are a
Preterist. I am familiar with the Preterist position and
find it interesting but I don't believe it holds up
too well. I recently finished reading "The Last Days
According to Jesus" by R.C. Sproul who is also a Preterist
and I learned a lot about 1st century history from
it. <br><br>Two things that strike me as serious
problems for the Preterist position are:<br><br>1) the
statement that Jesus made about this generation not passing
away in Matthew 24:34. If he meant the generation
then-alive then that shoots down Preterism because the sun
was never darkened (24:29) and Jesus never returned
(24:30-31). If Matthew 24 is all still future events then
"this generation" would mean the generation living when
the signs begin .<br><br>2) The book of Revelation
speaks of events that Jesus (Matthew 24) and Daniel
(Daniel 9:27) spoke of. If it was written prior to the
destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in A.D. 70 then the
Preterist view of Revelation would make since. But
historically we know that the book of Revelation was written
around A.D. 90. This does serious damage to the
Preterist position.<br><br>I do admit however, that there
are some striking similarities between the First
Century and Matthew 24. I'm looking forward to hearing
from you again on this.<br><br>CK

ut we can't know when. The prophecies that speak
of the last days were for the generation of Jesus'
lifetime, as he said. (Matt. 23:36 and 24:34) Jesus showed
John what mus "soon take place." (Rev.1:1) It all did
take place, which you can read about in Eusebius and
Josephus.<br>No other prophecy needs to be fulfilled; Jesus could
come today.<br>Even so Lord, come.

believe that the Lord will come when we need Him most.  He know us...and He
know what we need.  i don't think there is any accurate prediction.

elcome to the club. What is your understanding of the coming of the Lord Jesus?
I'm looking forward to hearing from you.<br>Ck

think it is wonderful that your area is
experiencing a time of revival. I wish we were experiencing
that here in upstate NY but to be frank, it is very
dead here. <br><br>I hope that my earlier comment
about revival was not misunderstood by anyone. I praise
God that He is moving in many places and in many
hearts to stir revival. However, I have heard some
preach that in the last days there will be a great
revival among believers. This is not true. In the last
days there will be a great falling away in the church.
See Matthew 24 & II Thess. 2 for evidence of
this.<br><br>CK

elcome to the club AdoreHim. Maybe I should take
this opportunity to give a brief synopsis of some
terms we're tossing around here.<br><br>PreTrib
(pretribulation) is the view that teaches there will be 7 years of
tribulation on the earth but Jesus will rapture the church
off the earth before the trib starts. At the end of
the 7 year trib Jesus will return at the battle of
Armaggeddon. This return is called the Second
Coming.<br><br>MidTrib believes all the above except they hold that
Jesus does not rapture the church until the middle of
the tribulation. The church must endure 3 1/2 years
of it.<br><br>PreWrath (which is what I lean
towards) believes that the church is raptured before the
Day of the Lord. We hold that this begins before the
end of the 7 years but after the
middle.<br><br>PostTrib believes Jesus comes at the end of the trib only.
That the rapture and Armaggeddon are at the same
time.<br><br>Their are more differences than I listed above but this
is it in a nutshell. I hope that we can all discuss
these issues in the Spirit of Love and argue. The
timing of the rapture is exciting to discuss but one's
view of it doesn't affect their salvation. It is not a
question of orthodoxy but it is a question of
readiness.<br><br>CK

7/f here forever interested in the coming of the
Lord... The NJ/NY/Pennsylvania area is filled with wild
revivals and prophecies of the Lord... most concerned with
the strength and the rising of the Christian Youth. I
have spent much time reading each context in the bible
mentioning the Second Coming but I would love to hear about
the many things I've missed. <br><br>I'm Presbyterian
from NJ and, though I feel the church is being
powerfully revived by God through the youth and youth
leaders, I do not know much about what's going on outside
of here. My Youth Pastor and myself have been deeply
into the revival of the holy spirit and spiritual
gifts, such as prophecy, healing, tongues, and others. I
would like to know so much about the different views
about the coming of the Lord:<br><br>pre-trib? I assume
it's pre-tribulation?<br>pre-wrath sounds pretty
clear, but what do they mean?????? THANKS FOR INVITING
ME TO THIS CLUB!

agree with you 100% Bleevr. What bothers me
most about the PreTrib view is that many believers
will be caught unaware when persecution begins. The
word also speaks of the apostasy in Matthew 24 & II
Thess. 2 but many Christians are waiting for a revival
before the Lord comes. It seems to me that the body of
Christ is totally unprepared, except for a few. We
should be ready for Jesus whenever He comes: pre, mid,
prewrath, post, or whenever. The problem in many churches
today is that you cannot even question the PreTrib view
without being labeled a heretic. <br>CK

elcome to the club! Hope to be hearing from you soon.<br><br>CK

elcome to the club! I see by your comment that
you are PreWrath. I consider myself PreWrath as well.
Tell me, what is it about the PreWrath position that
makes you believe in it. Why not PreTrib?
PostTrib?<br><br>CK

ount me as Pre-Wrath also. One fact is certain,
the Lord Jesus Christ will return visibly and bodily
and will establish a 1000 year physical reign on
Earth. Many instinctive behaviors of nature will
change.<br><br>However, I do not claim to know the times or the seasons.
There are signs, but I believe it could be as many as
30 years before the stage is fully set for the 3 1/2
or more year reign of the Antichrist which must
occur before the Lord comes.<br><br>Whenever the
Antichrist does reign, he will see that many, many
christians are put to death. The Bible says: "Here is the
faith and perseverance of the saints" in many places to
underscore this fact. But take heart, the martyrs' reward is
great.<br><br>To begin to understand Revelation, we must realize
that the same account is repeated at least 3 times in
this book. However, each telling leaves out details
filled in by the others. The easiest to grasp in terms
of sequence of events leading to the rapture is Rev.
12:1 to 14:20 which covers from the birth of Christ to
the judgement & reward for believers, of which God's
Word promises me that I am one.<br><br>Praise His Holy
Name,<br><br>bleevr

ey Bradster, welcome to the club. What's your thoughts on the end-times and the
return of Jesus? <br><br>I'm looking forward to hearing from you.<br><br>CK

'm excited about the new club and hope to see
many people joining soon. I would love it if when you
join you would post a little bit of info on your
understanding of end-time events.<br><br>Personally, I believe
that Jesus is coming back soon. That his return will
be personal and visible. I believe that he will
rapture those who believe in him & that we will be with
him forever & ever. What a wonderful day that will
be. I guess I would classify myself as taking a
PreWrath view. If anyone has questions about what that
means let me know.<br><br>I'm excited to get into some
good discussions!<br>CK

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