Dear Ram Charan,

Maybe we met! I know some Ram's. I met one last night in an Indian
restaurant over a buffet table and he wasn't even Indian!

I don't know for sure what Samsara means. Could it be the name of a couple
taken from their Ford Escort front window?

Aren't all seekers in Samsara? Don't all seekers seek something which
doesn't exist - like Father Christmas?

We used to have an instant mash potato product named after an acronym of
Samsara - it was eaten by extra-terrestrials called the Clangers - their
heads were made out of tin (cartels) cymbals...very Hare Krsna.

The experience that I have of the Other World Which is Always Here is
unchanging. In that sense it is a permanent experience.

I don't advise 'my seekers' to seek. Just relax and eat some yummy foods.
Pretty soon they find something very yummy!

But I do want you to get it. Then you will know what I know and that will be
the end of all this talk-talk.

I don't know this other fellow you were asking about. I have no teachers.
Well, none I would recommend because I really don't know what they teach
hald of the time. However, I am happy suggest to some difficult 'devotees '
to go and see someone else (normally, if they prefer talking to eating).

respects,

daveO



>
>Hi dave,
>
>I don't know if we've ever met but someone named "Das" seems very impressed
>by you and as a result has been emailing me. It seems from quotes he is
>sending that you are a spiritual teacher of some sort. Reading a quote
>today, I read something which disturbed me if it is supposed to be a
>teaching on spiritual truth. Perhaps it was taken out of context?
>the line was,
>
>What I want to you to get is a permanent
>experience.
>
>Freedom begins when one recognizes the fact that there is NO SUCH THING as
>a permanent experience. Seeking a permanent experience IS Samsara. Or, if I
>am mistaken, I would very much like to know from your end if you have found
>a permanent experience! Please tell me what it is!

>Looking forward to hearing from you,
>
>Ram charan
>

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Yo Andy Mc,

"I don't know" is one of the most common statements of playful
children, irresponsible adults and self-deceived seekers.

The seeker's problem is often that they think they do know something
and that they know it better than everyone else including
their 'teacher'. Which they do, of course.

However, knowing anything is not the point but the problem!

"Not-knowing mind" is a condition of awe (which isn't to be confused
with John de Ruiter's statement after eating a roasted chicken - he
said it was "awesome" - well, maybe it was for him). It is not a
thought or a statement.

I often feel that the "Master's" description of the Enlightenment is
pretty useless except for his peers. It's like being giving a Rolls
Royce Manual to a Mini owner.

I sort of know what he means but wouldn't mind having him in front of
me to get some more sense out of him and maybe he would let me use
the *kwat* stick on him. He he he :-)

Anyway, Korean's are hard to understand if you want to see what I
mean visit my old pal, Tatagatha, he claims to be the Supreme Master
and every time we meet he berates me for not following him. I have
never understood a single word he has said in over 7 years.

He is at:

http://www.inasc.org

Occasionally, he feeds me Korean food - that I can relate to! ;-)

love and munchies,

daveO


DO:

Not-knowing, you will notice, is really uncool, and just about every
teacher who has been brought to your attention has been claiming
knowledge of something? Otherwise they would doing something else.



Andy Mc:
The zen master Seung Sahn comes to mind as one who emphasises not-
knowing as essential.   "A don't-know mind is a before-thinking
mind.   Before thinking is clear like space. Clear like space is
clear like a mirror."

I guess he knows about not knowing. Ho Ho.

Andy M,

I did say:

It's fun to be controversial with unfalsifiable statements because it
makes people stop and think. They can then realise that they do not
know one way or another. In this world I can say that Dave is
responsible for the amazing, radical life-changes and healings in the
lives of the people around him.

To which you remark:

As long as you don't promise what you can't deliver.

I add:

The history of religion is full of promises of things coming  that
never quite come. The religious minded are eternally hopeful and wait
and wait and wait..that's how religion persists.

Unfortunately, from a business point of view I am delivering the one-
time-only goods and thus am losing my client base. I'm not very
religiously situated.

It takes so long to reach people and build up a relationship. Then
they discover that there is No-one Here and No-one is Searching and
they go home to Nowhere-in-Particular but at least it's Home. They
then forget about me.

I can't say that I wanted to be in such a delivery business but it
does tend to happen that I am in it.

I promise Nothing. And people do get IT!

DaveO

PS Did you get IT yet?

Andy M,

In response to my recent blah blah ending in:

"Going to There, tends to help a sense of Happiness here to persist.
In fact, the Happiness-of-there tends to persist and merge with every
experience Here. "

You Andy didst say:

I like this, this is cool. The difference between absolute bliss-
happiness and relative happiness and how being open to/in/as absolute
changes relative perception.

To which, I Dave, add:

Exactly! Though I await to see if going on this vacation to the world
of Nothingness stops being fun, and stops affecting the fun here. But
for now it is true.

Maybe when people sleep a lot they are going to that Nothingness
place...the only problem is that they come back here. The task is how
to be There and Here at the same time.

Dave O

The Tuesday Group meeting was very cosy, comfortable, still, deep and
hot!

I would be open to doing more meetings in such intimate spaces. If
you know of such places where a few friends could drop in to be in
stillness, let me know. Also, I am open to suggestions as to whether
to grow, or not grow, this 'meeting in stillness/silence/dialogue
thing'.

best wishes in the moment,

dave

Hi Dave, oh you kid, you!

Love your enthusiasm, and bet it would be lots of fun to go one of
your meetings. One teensy tiny thought crossed my mind reading this.
See the ### in place.

You can be totally happy - all of the time. It could happen very
easily and quickly. ####Dave Oshana makes it possible.

#### Umm, indirectly, yeah sure, that way you make it possible.
Don't "I" need to see the light, the truth will set you free, so to
speak..or  do "I" learn byyour example and teaching?
Well, I would rather hear it this way. Perhaps insert, "You can learn
how."

Okay, maybe I have no idea what your are really up to over there and
just guessing from here. Twas my reaction tho. Can anyone else
really "make" me happy? (Feel free to try, Dave.) :):)

Best wishes and all that,
Gloria
-------------------------

Hi Gloria,

So I'm a kid now? I thought that accolade was reserved for my
fellow teacher the son of The Mother of God. Are you feeling
maternal? I find a lot of relationships are like that.

Make you happy? Oh, I can make you very happy as long as you
don't have to live with me!

You're so right: my meetings are loadsa fun. Well I constantly
aim to please. In fact, I tried so hard recently that I collapsed of
exhaustion when I got home – but fortunately I had already put my
pyjamas on so I got to lie in bed like Ramana Maharshi contemplating
if I was dead or alive for a couple of days. It was terribly boring
and I don't recommend you try this at home unless you are under 8
years of age!

There are a number of people who want it done to them. They are like
the proverbial princess who will only marry the man who can make her
happy.

Fortunately, Prince Siddharta Gautama (the Buddha) got off of his
butt and realised that "Life isn't suffering after all"!

Actually, to say that I don't really make anyone happy would be
good in one sense. Then you could say that I don't make anyone
unhappy either. Imagine the consequences! The number of litigation
cases in the US would be slashed over night. Lawyers would have to
find new ways to make money!

Really, no-one is made to do anything. You don't even learn how.
I certainly don't recommend anyone copy my lifestyle. Anyway,
it's private except for a few trusted devotees who I am on a
first
name basis with (only kidding, I'm not like the rest, honest ;-)).

Well, I`m toying with a new theory, i.e. that I show you where to
look for happiness. Yes, I'm a Happiness Tour Guide straight out
of Disney Land! (flappy ears and goofy teeth are extra)

Yer, best wishes you to you too and all that stuff,

Love dave

From Andrew M.,

Dave, you asked, here's what I think.

  1. If you are totally happy all the time how do you know you are?
  2. Grace makes it possible, grace may seem to work through Dave, but
Dave does not make it possible.

love,


andrew
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew,

Good questions!

Now for some difficult answers! I haven't worked out the language
yet but I refuse to use hackneyed Hindu concepts even if I end up re-
inventing the Advaita wheel.


Answer #1
There are two David's here.
One is in the world of duality. He has happiness and the opposite. He
has everything and it's opposite.  He has every thought and
it's opposite.

Emotions really don't come with labels. It's
thoughts that label them. Everything in this world changes, and
eventually becomes the opposite. But the Real Me, Mr Nobody,
isn't  in this world. He is being No-One in the world of Nothing.
(I assume since he doesn't send many postcards). That's the second
David!
He is in the world of Unity. He hasn't got a name really because
his parents didn't notice that he was There – they only
recognised that he is Here.

The good thing about being Awake is knowing that there is a There. So
I get to go There a lot, and no-one seems to notice. But I know it
and I really enjoy it. In that place there is always Happiness. So
there is happiness all of the time as I say. It might be described in
other ways like contentment. It is only on coming back to the world
of Duality that I notice that the World of  Unity/Nothing is a happy
place because I am happy. It's like coming back from vacation
with fond memories. Or even waking up with a big grin on your face
but not remembering the dream. You assume it was pleasant.

Going to There, tends to help a sense of Happiness here to persist.
In fact, the Happiness-of-there tends to persist and merge with every
experience Here.

Answer #2

It's fun to be controversial  with unfalsifiable statements
because
it makes people stop and think. They can then realise that they do
not know one way or another. In this world I can say that Dave is
responsible for the amazing, radical life-changes and healings in the
lives of the people around him. This sort of statement would do
Andrew Cohen proud since he  never  seems shy of heaping praise on to
his plate. However, whether I really am doing anything or not, is an
intractable free-will problem that one can travel to Bombay to sort
out with the likes of philosophers like Ramesh Balsekar.  Or you
could just go to your local library and read "Philosophy Made
Simple".

In this world it seems it does not work to be too humble. Nor does it
help to be really arrogant. I said once that I did not know what was
going on at my meetings but it sure was profound. I was told by one
fellow friendly critics (I have a stable of them) to de-emphasise
this talk of  `not-knowing'.

Not-knowing, you will notice, is really uncool, and just about every
teacher who has been brought to your attention has been claiming
knowledge of something – otherwise they would doing something
else.

Have you seen any `teachers' washed up or marooned on the
Rocks of Conceptuality recently? It can happen to the best.

Love & Grace  (I think) dave

Knowledge is a misleading thing. Perhaps, a true thing has never been
said about Enlightenment. This is obvious when a description is
flowery but when it sounds logical, plausible or mind-blowing then we
might take it as the Truth. Beware: the map is *never* the territory.

There are several types of seeker: philosophers, doers and
experiencers. I hope you are an experiencer.

I sat in on a Satsang recently. It was quite an eye-opener. The
philosophers sat there like oysters. Their ears straining like clam-
like shells waiting to catch the 'latest' instalment of that ancient
philosophical system, Advaita Vedanta, to drop like jasmine nectar
from teacher's lips. They would then nestle this bit of Advaitic grit
in their intellectual bosom, their mind, and create a pearl from it,
which they would then offer the next teacher as evidence of their
diligence.

Unfortunately, this intellectual pursuit, dedicated as it is, is not
what is being asked for. What I want to you to get is a permanent
experience.

dave oshana

Shaving on The Eternal Razor's Edge

Talking about razor's, pins and torn t-shirts is something of an
adolescent fetish which exploded in our faces at he end of the
Seventies with punk rock.

Normal life is being surrounded by bags of unused disposable nappies
and rubbish bags filled to the brim with used ones...and there is not
a saftey pin in sight.

This is a metaphor for life. There is no safety!

Having realised this fact some 'life-teachers' (as if there were a
better to teacher than life itself but "Hey! Viva the the GM
revolution - pass the Coca Cola, dude - it's The Real Thing.) have
made an industry out of showing you that life is lived without a
saftey-net. They do this by introducing all kinds of 'crazy wisdom'
behaviours, tests and austerities. Talk about rubbing salt in the
wound. Of course, there are a minority of seekers who are masochistic
but that should not give their teachers (p/t sadists) a license to
practice on spiritual minors. But it doesn't work like that. If you
find yourself in the Sheikh's Harem tent then he naturally presumes
it is for a good reason - himself!

Being surrounded by nappies means I am also surrounded by babies.
When the nappy arrives so does the baby to fill it - normally just
before the nappy arrives!

Babies don't pretend to know anything. The world is neither safe nor
unsafe. This is the Truth of Preception As It Is.

later

dave oshana

Dear Sw.Virus,

I'm coming from just outside your field of vision from a place called "You
Don't Know What You Don't Know (but You Do Really)". It might seem like
Outer Space but I doubt it. Haven't you heard that there is a petrol
shortage here!

What do you need to know so badly, MahaDude? Is Sw.Virus short for Swami
Virus. Are you under-mining the foundation of religion?

To attend a Dialogue all you need to do is turn up! Entrance fees are mucho
cheapo at the moment but prices may rise for Xmas and drop for the sales!
:-)

The current Dialogues are happening fortnightly and their dates are at:

http://www.egroups.com/message/oshana/4

but that only takes us to 15 Oct.

I'll add more dates later. If you come close to Xmas we might not get a hall
(unless you want to dress up as one of my reindeers) or the alternative is
that you will have to come and to Chinatown with me and have a soul-raising,
thought-stopping Hot and Sour Soup.

We await your arrival.

Over,

Dave Oshana

>FROM: sw.virus@...
>SUBJECT: coming to terms with language
>
>jeez, daveoshana: where are you coming from (besides the
>outerspace)? is it really a joke? i hope so... i badly need
>to know more about you mahadude. unfortunately english is
>not my mother tongue thus i'm having some trouble about
>replying it all 'in rhymes' (as we say in swiss italian).
>
>i'm having a chance to come to london for a while by
>december: how can i attend one of your, how you call it?,
>dialogues?

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If you come to a London Dialogue meeting I personally promise that you will
have the
opportunity to:

Solve all your problems.
Have Eternal Happiness.
Get a good meal.

Of course, I might be being set up by my attendees - some sort of cosmic
Sting. Maybe they are just faking the results and waiting to sue me when I
start guaranteeing results?

Dave Oshana - A Uniquely Compromising Spiritual "Teacher"

Want to have a good laugh?

Spirituality isn’t all  about rice and peas everyday, meditator’s sore
bottom and
evading the clutches of abusive gurus.

Want to finish The Job?

Or do you like sitting around while new-converts take over the mic and
preach you
into senseless?  I suppose it’s more natural  than sleeping pills.

Have you been filled with more philosophy than one of Bertrand Russell’s
mistresses?

Let go!

Happiness is *not* :

-a philosophy
-a technique
-an attainment

Happiness is what you really are. I’ve been proving that to scores of people
   all over
the Europe, and disproving many of the ridiculous ideas we have been
infected with
from  “spiritual culture”.

All you have to do is relax into it. Give up your concerns, tensions,
worries and issues.

Easier said than done? Actually, it’s easily said and done simultaneously.

At my Dialogue meetings you raise your questions and then take a peek at
your most
chronic psycho-emotional problems (don’t worry no-one will notice)....and
find they
have miraculously disappeared! Just like that!

These meetings are unique. Sigmund Freud, Deepak Chopra, Anthony Robbins,
Andrew Cohen, John de Ruiter, Jesus Christ, Tony Parsons and Ken Wilber (add
your own
favourite name here XXXX ) may all give you something but have they made you
happy yet?

Dave Oshana.
Original, Unadulterated, Un-affected Pure Consciousness in One Easy to Open
Email.

Subscribe today. You know your whole life has been leading to This.

Better yet come to one of the regular London Meetings.
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Hi Narayan,

Greetings to you and yours.!

You ask:

>              "How are you able to motivate yourself to go out and teach?

>            In Glastonbury you said you cannot help yourself. Please could
>you expand
>            on that one.

Beautiful question! I like questions* like these because they are so
reminiscent of my
wanderings in spiritual culture. I met this question several times in
Glastonbury.

Do you remember that your questions when we met were on a similar theme? It
was
easy when we could Dialogue face to face. There was a rapid volley of words
and then
smiles, laughter....silence.

There is some feeling that you convey: that you feel you should teach and
simultaneously  there is an opposite reaction.

Motivation is only required when it is absent.

I feel like a mothering bird who wakes in the morning and sees these hungry
gaping
beaks straining for some re-constituted sustenance! I chew my immediate
experience,
the Current Perspective, and make it an offering.

The Cosmic Chef has given so much sustenance. To gorge on it only invites
one’s
annihilation via internal Hara Kiri, filling up like a Michelin Man,
exploding like a
rubber latex inner tube, and being splattered into a Million Pieces around
the
Universe.

What are you going to chose?

The alternative is to give it all away - quickly! To preserve one’s
gastro-intestinal
integrity and stay one unified whole. If you look down from The Razor’s
Edge/the
Narrow Path - you can see the saintly remains of  wayfarers - drugged-out
babas, dusty
sadhus and fat pundits!

There is an alternative. Pepto-Abysmal and Ex-Lax are not Optimal Health
aids they
are Alternative (to) Health.

You could simply refuse your Mission Impossible! *yawn* (Can you imagine Tom
Cruise doing that halfway into the opening theme tune?) However you had
better get
up from the Cosmic Supper Table ‘cos you’re going to get filled and then
‘creamed’
(as Hilde says she gets at meetings). You can’t refuse the Divine Mama’s
cooking if
you are sat there watching it being wheeled out. Everything is Dolce!

            Mama Mia Ki Jai Hari Bolo!

Now, personally, I can’t refuse certain cookings. Last night, as I took a
prospective
documentary maker on a winding trip thru’ the extremes of  London’s West End
- sort
of a Cockney version of Siddartha Gautama’s Charioteer except I didn’t
narrate - she
looked at old tramps to film and expensive shoe displays because...well
because she
did....and I thought: when is she going to slip off her Cosmic Emotional
Armouring,
go skinny dip in Ocean of Bliss (it’s always warm on Thursdays) and emerge a
Mega-babe ala “La Dolce Vita”, so that we could go home (independently) and
take
an early bath (soccer speak) and go to bed...with a good book...mine’s a
current
“Spiritual Teacher” who is having an “Unconditional Relationship with Life”
- what’s
yours?

She wanted to film a guru-disciple relationship. A bit
no-holds-barred....”Didn’t you
see the Police Tape, Madam? It says “Do *Not* Cross””. Anyway, I don’t do
that type
of thing and referred her to my message in which I do not entertain
teacher-follower
co-dependency. You get it, you go home and you get to keep your wife!
Unlike, one
Crazy Wisdom Teacher: you come, you pay, you go home and he spends the night
with your wife - perhaps he  wasn’t into sharing back in the Swinging
Sixties either!

Anyway...back to the West End detour....inevitably the documentary maker
wondered
where I was going...well...she could guess (we were on Chinatown
borders...anyone
who knows me knows where I was going...to eat Chinese food. :-) )

I was in heaven! She was in hell! She didn’t really want to eat out but was
hungry and
wanted to smoke a beedi  (but couldn’t). We spoke about how she wanted to
get
happy but how her work produces so much stress, anxiety and pressure that
one day it
will lead to paralysis. Could she give it up? If she gave it up then she
could be happy.

Happiness is: dropping stuff!

I was very contented. She was frustrated and said it was the food that made
me happy.
It does! It does! More happiness! Such bliss!

I ordered her a Hot and Sour soup. It blew the top of her head off. Her
neurones
propelled by soup vapour mingled with the stars, and after aeons of
desiring, found
Liberation. However, she is still sitting on her chair dreaming of shoes and
Gurus...

It’s possible to be more and more happy but Liberation stays the same. When
the body
is happy...this is good.

I don’t know if I can walk away from the Cosmic Canteen Table. Why would I
want
that? It’s more fun dropping in to eat quickly, and rushing out to haul in
the next
intake of guests.

If you have been given an excess of calories then you have to burn them up.

So now you know how it’s done for Dave.

Love dave

P.S. Your brother attended the next  London meeting and came to eat with us
all
afterwards. I told you that he was very welcome!

This week a Glastonbury lady came and also ate. She had seen so many
immediate
changes in her ex-partner that she took an opportunity to visit the London
meetings.
She is also a special person and got something.

A Glastonbury visit may be on approximately between 23-29/10/00.

I will reply shortly when I get time but in short...there is nothing for me
to do than
share my cooking!


*(NB to All: However, all questions are equally important and must be
asked).

Dear Dave,

               A day does not pass where I do not remember your wonderful
               visit to Glastonbury. You should come to Glastonbury again.

               My question is ...
               "How are you able to motivate yourself to go out and teach?

               In Glastonbury you said you cannot help yourself. Please could
you expand
               on that one.

               I find myself becoming more and more reclusive. Less and less
likely to
               share my wonderful space.

               it would be great if you could shed some light on my question

               LOVE
               NARAYAN

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Dear Jerry,
Thanks, I hope everyone realised that the "Open Letter" was humour -
well it wasn't serious at the very least :-).

Perhaps, I could accept a few words next to me listing rather than
blank line (that is truly scary unless one loves Emptiness). The
words I would chose would be:

               This is IT!

Hardly original, I know - but we are all traditionalists here, aren't
we?

               love dave oshana
               http://www.egroups.com/messages/oshana


               --- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, umbada@n... wrote:
               > Hi Dave,
               >
               > I think you wanted me to respond to your letter. I
                 agree
               > with it. I removed the quote next to your name. I
                really
               > should amend the Oshana Disclaimer to the list of
               > realizers/confessors.
               >
               > The word/writing/nonduality business is kinda funny,
                 isn't
               > it? A person really can't get it until they give it
               all up.
               >
               > Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.
               >
               > Jerry
               >
               > p.s. I know you sent this to several lists, Dave, but
                I'm
               > only sending it to two of them.
               >
               >
               > -------------------------------------------

--- In oshana@egroups.com, "Dave  Oshana" <daveoshana@h...> wrote:
> An open unsolicited letter to Jerry M Katz (the founder of the Non
> Duality Salon, the
> greatest mish-mush of Advaitics on one website).

[snip]

Dear RC, (cont.)

>It's beautiful if Satsang is arising from your
>realization of Truth.  Be aware that identification
>runs deep and can be very subtle.

I appreciate all advice. Well, I take it in. One can never be sure
when one will need it. I always keep a Holy Book at the bedside just
in case the Shiva Shakes, not to be confused with the Shakti Shakes,
strike at 4 a.m in the morning.

Interestingly, this spiritual health warning is nearly always given
by Papaji's followers. Something, in me irons out any tendencies to
identify. Anyway, how to identify with being a Teacher? It is a
ridiculous profession. I am most ashamed. No wonder, Ramana ran away,
shaved up, threw away his clothes and hid in cave.

>Many who have had
>this Realization (esp. those who have given Satsang)
>have had to contend with "setting up house" somewhere
>in the mind! At least for a while.

And some have built skyscrapers!

>Many who have been
>living wide open to Truth made many visits to
>Master Papaji, and Master Ramana and had deeper layers
>of identification revealed.

But that sounds suspiciously like "seeking" only under a different
guise. Whatever became of the words "Call off the Search"?

Identification happens! Shift Happens! Who is it that cares anyway?

Is Ramana Ashram now a Chinese Launderette for the daily maintenance
of Awakened Souls? Real sannyasins are naked!

Annamalai Swami was one of Ramana's closest disciples. He got IT, and
was told to move on. He set up next to Ramana Ashram but never again
visited. Why should he? Even Ramana ignored him when they crossed
paths on the Hill.

Didn't Papaji say "Nothing Happened"? So is anything really drowning
daily?

>    Yes, it is also my experience that this Pure
>consciousness that we are never leaves,  NOW the
>challenge is to not indulge any latent tendency of
>mind.

But who cares if you do indulge?

love dave oshana

Dear RC,

>I have sat
>with many of these teachers and can attest that many
>of them are true teachers.  You mentioned Andrew
>Cohen, and although he obviously is on fire with
>something of the Self he also is on a subtle and not
>so subtle ego trip, mentioned by Papaji and also his
>own mother.

There are different meanings of the word 'ego'. Ego is
identification. It can also mean 'empire-building behaviour'. Andrew
may be surrendered to that behaviour.

Ramana secretly built an ashram. Andrew publicly builds a publishing
house.

Andrew's arrival on the spiritual circuit preceded the Mass
Exodus of Papajian Satsang Sharers from Lucknow. The floodgates
opened only AC (After Cohen).

Who can be sure if Andrew is on a subtle ego trip? Rest in
not being sure about anything.

Maybe Jesus was on an ego trip and paid the ultimate price? After
all, He could have stayed at home with mum cooking matzos rather than
running all over the Galilean foothills and raising hell!

It has been rumoured that Mary wrote a book about Jesus. Wonder what
it said?

>When you mentioned "deepening" and how there is no
>deep and shallow in Truth.  I hear you, that's really
>true.  But this deepening seems to refer to the
>continually deeper Surrender/True-seeing of the
>identified (Leela) consciousness, and even Papaji
>spoke of drowning a little more each day.

But who drowns? Perhaps, the 'identity' drowns and comes up for air
before getting a dunking again. Possibly, the dunking is automatic
after Awakening. Have you seen those executive toy bobbing
birds...once set up they dip in and out of the water beaker....ad
infinitum?

Every day the ego gets killed again? A re-enactment of the
Valentine's Day Massacres? Or the sinking of the Titanic everyday on
video? Will these ego's never go away? Leonardo and Kate keep re-
appearing before one's eyes egged on by diva Dion only to go down and
resurrect the next day.

Groundhog Day. Does Jesus get up on the Cross and get crucified
everyday just in case someone missed an earlier performance? Maybe he
should have stuck to matzo baking. Although matzos get pierced they
never bother to rise. Can't get more laid back than that.

love dave oshana

Robert Amory, (cont.)

The identification with body and mind is a thought. A tenacious
thought. The mind and body have as much to do with you, Awareness, as
a passing bus, donkey, holy man or clown. It is an error to identify
such things, the objects in Awareness, with who you really are, i.e.
Awareness.

No effort is required to be who you are. The effort is superfluous.
You can grunt, groan and sweat, or simply lay on a beach drinking
coconut and pineapple juice. It makes no difference you will still be
you.

You can try using effort to stop identifying with Robert Amory but
first see who is observing all this and then the mistaken identity
will fall away.

dave oshana

>       So, when you say, that we can
>drop identification with the body and thoughts, I can only conjecture
>that you mean CONSCIOUS or DELIBERATE  effort at preserving a
particular
>aspect of the matrix of feelings and thoughts.  Or, alternatively, it
>could be an unconscious effort to preserve some kind of exclusive
inner
>perspective, to the exclusion of other thought/feelings.
   

Robert Amory,

>My point is that the very loss of ego, the very absence of
>referentiality (or, strictly speaking, the absence of self [self as
>ego] referentiality), has a locus, a reference point.

Ego,self - call it 'identity' for now. That 'identity' was given as a
reference point.

The identity is maintained for social, business and communication
purposes. Thus from the world's viewpoint the buck stops with you
(when it is dealing with Robert Amory's business). But Robert Amory
is a concept that started when his parents named him. They needed a
reference point to register you, to refer to you. But really You are
simply observing everything and we are all pretending that there is
this character, Robert Amory! Maybe you even believe it!

Habeus Corpus does not apply in this Court! Just because you can
point to the body (aka Robert Amory) does not mean that you can prove
Robert Amory exists. He doesn't. Robert Amory is the name given to a
living body.

>And that reference point DOES reside in the
>mind/body as energy system. Most notably, that locus is referred to
>by Kundalini practitioners as the crown chakra, for one.

I don't know the location where Consciousness resides.  Do you?

> I believe we live in a forest of symbols, all referring to
>something else...

Who is it that lives there?

dave oshana
http://www.egroups.com/messages/oshana

Dear David,

I do not give talks but have Dialogues, in which, I gently share the
Perspective of Reality from where I am looking. A Perspective which I
believe will radically alter people's lives.

The enquirer has the opportunity to have the experience of their own
Totality. This happens in group sessions and one-to-one sessions.

The Perspective does not identify with being a person  i.e. having a
history, problems and issues, but with being in essence: Bliss.
However, the existence of the material 'person', in my case David,
still persists. What is my relation to David? He is the closest
'entity' to me: Bliss.

David surfs the Bliss and goes aboutattempting to talk about it.
David is now a 'happy camper' and a 'surfing dude'. Bliss itself,
isn't really into words though it can, in principle, be loosely
conveyed by any gesture, look or expression.

However, 'bliss' that can be conveyed is a Secondary Manifestation of
true Bliss, a pale imitation. Anyone could potentially be a 'bliss
merchant', a purveyor of high quality experiences. For example,
William Shakespeare, by describing life through both actors and
readings, was able to initiate profound but fortunately temporary
emotional states in an audience. However, as every subscriber of
'Hello' magazine knows: reading about the lifestyle of the rich and
famous is not the same as having in it. Eventually,  one has to put
down the magazine and do the housework. Which is what I am going to
do!

In other words: I am going to read 'Hello' magazine :-)

DaveOshana

Robert,

You are already home, where else could you be - at work perhaps? Just
look with your inner eyes

twinkle twinkle little star....

dave


>Dave...
>
> Can you express further the comment of "come home?" It is this
>quote that caught me eye.
>
> Smiles, Robert

An open unsolicited letter to Jerry M Katz (the founder of the Non
Duality Salon, the
greatest mish-mush of Advaitics on one website). This is *not spam*
as
merely
existing on this planet is an open invitation to harassment -thus
spake the Buddha
(Principle 1 of 4, for absolute beginners: Life is suffering). Thus I
fully reserve my
rights of free speech under the First Amendment of the American
Constitution and the
Fifth to not reply to any un-kosher dualistic arising.

Dave Oshana <--- who wishes that the Creator of the Rocky Horror Show
penned not
"Let's Do The Time-walk Again" but "Let's Do the
Advaita Shuffle
Again"
(The term "Advaita Shuffle" is the Intellectual Property of
Andrew
Cohen circa. 1995)

Beloved Jerry,

Re: The Reference to Oshana on your "Realisers and
Confessors" webpage

I like you, OK. But please don't quote me . There comes a time in
every founder's life
when a little creative book-blurring is required and it's not
necessarily to claim on the
insurance.

Realise Beloved Jerry: A Master's under-graduate dissertation is
often
a terrible embarrassment.

One hapless Master has had to change his name seven times just so as
to retake "The
Test" seven times. ("No-Mind" might seem desirable from the other
side
of the fence-
granted it has it's moments- but it also has it's problems.)
Each time
he re-revised his exam
answers he told his students he had graduated to the 'next' level.

What level? There are no levels. It's pass or fail. I'm sure
it was
just a Zen/tantra/left-hand
path/Crazy Wisdom/Laughing Man's tactic.

This Master then told his students to fission/fry his old books and
just read the latest
one. His publisher swears that this was not a marketing stunt.

Apparently, some Master's think that the Realisation of THAT,
that
One
Unchanging-ness, could be helped along with a New (Dawn) Revelation.

Has THAT(0) become THAT(1)  and look again it's now THAT(2 )---->
THAT(3)
...ad infinitum

As compensation for the misleading and out-of-context quote next to
my
name on
your website, I am prepared to accept the printing of this letter in
full after every usage
of my name on your site. In fact, I will have it made an
International
Internet Standard
because every quote is out of context, and casual surfing dudes need
to be warned. We
wouldn't want the innocent to be dragged kicking and screaming to the
Ocean of Bliss.
Well, I wouldn't. After all when the Fat Guy wobbled onto a keyboard
he spake thus :

"#1 Life is Surfing".

(I'm not claiming past-life inheritance or anything- don't go getting
any funny ideas..OK?)

daveoshana
@hotmail.com
http://www.egroups.com/group/oshana

You have seven days to reply.

Your reference to my Emptiness, i.e. the quote that split the
Non-Duality Community:

"Dave Oshana. "There are many types of bliss but only one that lasts
forever. Have you got that bliss yet?""

"Leave your mind and shoes at the door"?

Indian curries are reportedly Britain's favourite eat-out meal. But
then the Brits have had over a century to get used to them. The best
curries I find are home-cooked - so if you get invited: accept and
enjoy the  startling  taste-bud sensation! A good curry is like
having
sensory ragas (Indian melodies) playing on both the tongue and the
neuronal synapses.

However, Westerners have not had that long to understand Hindu
culture, devotional attitudes, etiquette and philosophy.
Consequently,
most of Britain is not interested in advaita, satsang, darshan,
bhakti- ("life but not as me know it, Jim"  - Star Trek).

The good news (I am starting wonder if I sound like a born-again
Christian) is that you don't have to become a Hindu, and you get to
keep your fish and chips culture, or vegetarian South Indian thali
take-aways - depending on your tastes.

The Osho (no relation) Rajneesh ashram reportedly had a sign above a
gate saying:

"Leave your mind and shoes at the door".

I say bring your shoes in - someone may steal them! This is similar
to
the Arabic saying:

"Trust in Allah but tie up your camel."

Also, bring your mind to the Dialogue. Bring everything. It can all
be
dealt with - then you get to go home early/date your boss/get a
pay-rise, pass through "Go" & collect £200 (Monopoly), and take an
early bath (which is what football players do when they get taken off
the field early - except you can take your bath alone save for nice
incense, tea-lite candles and suitably ambient music (rather than
with
ten sweaty, muddy, hairy lads and the occasional black and white
striped referee replete with pea-whistle)).

One man who came to a Dialogue even brought his dog! (However, there
maybe licensing restrictions in force at a number of venues so please
check in advance. OK?) :-) I don't know if the dog got IT.

That reminds me I must email the local Zen temple and ask if they
have
answered the centuries old koan:

"Does a dog have Buddha-nature?"

[Answers on a postcard please :-) ]

Q: Will I ever get to the point?
Ans: There is only point.

This preamble was all to simply say that the Dialogues have been
changing. They are now Totally_Concept_Free! Indeed, if you can find
a
single concept in any Dialogue. I'll give you your money back. Yes,
in
fact, I'll refund every single donation you have ever made, and I'll
even hand over the Oshana mailing list to you (serious callers only
please).

You wanted Peace of Mind - well, now you have it with Oshana's
Unconditional Guarantee of Enlightenment! Subject to all the usual
terms and conditions. We offer completely impartial advice. In fact,
we don't offer anything at all- not even Nothing (sorry,
Nihilo-philes
- but I suppose we have already lost you by the time this email hits
your desk).

Dave Oshana. No concepts, additives, undiluted. Not made from
concentrates (but you can try) :-).

Dave replying to Zenida:

>First, you need to define what you mean by the words ego,
consciousness and
abuse. In Korea, I discovered that some words for different states of
mind or
consciousness in foreign languages cannot be translated properly into
English as we
often have no exact equivalent for them.

Making useful definitions will be a lot of work. I have started to
drop all concepts from my Dialogues - so maybe I can by-pass
the proposed lexicographical task! :-)

>As for ego, maybe we had better say super ego, as however much we
try
not to identify with 'I', the personality is still making a
statement.

Well, again it depends on definitions, as you say. Do all statements
have to come from the personality?

>Even Tathagata was accused by some of being 'arrogant'
>but he claimed it is not arrogant to say you are the 'best' if that
is just the truth. But
perhaps it doesn't matter what other people think. If the person
becomes 'enlightened'
then perhaps those who have not reached that state cannot possibly
understand that state of enlightenment.

They cannot really understand. Well, I couldn't. I meet people who
can
talk the talk and are the first to admit they are still seeking. They
have so many ideas about it.

The waitress fills the teacup that is empty not the one that is full!

It is so weird to watch everyone speculate after a Dialogue meeting.
Which is why I am dropping the concepts. Soon we will be able to just
eat in peace and hang out in simple-minded joy without all this
philosophising.

Anyway, the waitress fills the teacup that is empty not the one that
is full!

Watching everyone around the dinner table is weird.
Its like being
invited at your own birthday party and seeing that no-one
notices "you". You even have your best clown's suit on - they
still don't see you and they all talk like they know you - might as
well come in a real birthday suit.

The Emperor has no clothes! But some people want to dress him up. But
if the Emperor were an attractive clothed Empress maybe it be the
opposite way around. :-)

>I am very conscious that 'I' have many different facets and multiple
personalities if I
care to use them.

True. And sometimes you might find they are using you. Like the kids
taking over the house when the parents are on vacation! :-)

>I have no problem with feeling detached from some of them.

Of course. It's the ones that cannot be 'risen above' that are
considered a problem.

>I can rise above them in meditation and the dream state, but
although
love and
compassion are states I cultivate daily, I find most emotions are
becoming easier to
detach from as I grow older.

Daily. 24 hours a day. Every moment.
That would be good wouldn't it?  :-) :-) :-):-):-) :-)

>When you are able to see the ` whole picture' it is easier to
feel
compassion for people rather than anger or sadness.

True.

> Yes, it is easy to feel that we have everything 'sussed' until
something shakes us up
and disturbs us. I like the bit about 'sediments'.I feel that I still
have sediments. Do you
think that yours have all gone now?

Did I mention `sediments'?  Others have. For me, they
don't seem to be
relevant.

> It is easy to feel peaceful and tranquil on my own, but not so easy
around some
people. I find that I need to learn how to love people more so that
whatever they do I
will stay in a state of bliss. Can you do that?

It cannot be lost.

Love david

Sky,

>High Dave,
>
>You wrote,
>
>"The focus is on getting the enquirer to see, as quickly as possible,
>"Who am I", or put another way, to dis-identify with who they thought
>they were."
>
>You thus seem to be putting the emphasis in "enlightenment," on ego
>transcendence. This is obviously perhaps the most common thread in
>spirituality based enlightenment thinking.  But I have a different
>take which I hope you'll comment on.

There is no transcendence. You don't go anywhere. You only cease to
identify with the false
identity. It happens naturally. You don't even need to have a concept
about what will happen. In
the Dialogue you just look, i.e. see what is there.


>For me, the "ego" is irrelevant in the sense that I believe
>the real and most direct issues center around feelings associated
>with love and power.

What do you mean by issues? Issues for who?

>  Perhaps "ego" is an obsession with personal power, but to
>focus on that negative, I believe, is like trying to look more
>intensely at the darkness, in order to banish it.  Better to turn on
>the light.

Yes, of course and why not? Ego here means identification with
personal things like mind &
body not "an obsession with personal power".

>          For me, finding the light means simply focusing on feelings
>of sensitivity, empathy, gentleness, warmth, as far as the love side
>is
>concerned.  On the power side, exuberance, fun, novelty, joi de vivre
>are the lights that banish any quest for power at another's expense.

Nothing wrong with that. How is it going?

>           I'm interested in your take on this.
>
>love,
>sky

Royal,

My answers are in the text below.

--- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, royalsan@h... wrote:

> Is David separate from the Observer?  Or is David a reflection of
>the Observer?

David doesn't exist except as a concept imposed on a body.

> Is there a difference?  Inside.  Outside.  All is Divine
> Consciousness, is it not?

Consciousness is independent. There is no inside or outside. When I
had kinaesthetic spiritual
experiences - they *seemed* to come from inside rather than outside.
Now it seems: all experiences are in Consciousness but not IT.

>I also love to sing!  "Home sings me of sweet things -- my life
>has its own wings"

Good. I hope to hear it live! will you sing for me? I like being
entertained.

> 'Crazy wisdom' teachers?  Please enlighten me.  Give me gentle
> compassion over abuse anytime!

Crazy Wisdom is a term applied to less conservative 'teachers' who do
controversial things
supposedly in order to create enlightenment.

Georg Feurstein has written a book on the subject:

Holy Madness : The Shock Tactics and Radical Teachings of Crazy-Wise
Adepts, Holy Fools, and Rascal Gurus (An Omega Book)
Georg Feuerstein
http://www.telesterion.com/esotericbooks/fuerstei.htm

Shanti,

Dave Oshana

http://www.egroups.com/message/oshana/

Crazy Wisdom, Co-dependency & Disciple Abuse

High Sky,

So far, co-dependency (between myself and a fellow Dialoguer) has not
been a problem in my
Dialogues. The Dialoguer is responsible for his/her own search. I do
not ask anything of them, or
from them, except honest enquiry. In turn I can only be asked to
honestly present the truth of my
perspective.

The focus is on getting the enquirer to see, as quickly as possible,
"Who am I", or put another
way, to dis-identify with who they thought they were. After that I
probably won't see them again
unless they already knew me socially.

Getting this Perspective is not something that need take lifetimes.
No arduous practices are required. No one needs to practice
austerities (but if you want to give up your cup of steaming
jasmine tea to a thirsty soul - who am I to tell you otherwise! ;-))

Dave Oshana <------- Having a "Kung Fu" series flashback: imagining
         being a thirsty meditating Shaolin Temple monk surrounded by
bubbling
         cauldrons of steaming herb tea

         www.egroups.com/group/oshana
--- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, "sky " <raaaa1234@w...> wrote:

> High Dave,

I feel very much the same way you do when you write,

"I am considering my opinion on so-called 'crazy wisdom'
teachers.Could they be Liberated? Certainly they and their students
might appear `liberated from social etiquette'.
"However, if abuse is a small or large
part  of their teaching method, then it stands in contrast with my
experience of compassion which manifests itself as gentleness when I
share my perspective in public Dialogues."

For me, without gentleness, there is only  darkness.  Those who
employ
abuse, I believe, are spreading a negativity which is strictly
self-serving and oppressive.

Such forms of false enlightenment, I believe, merely recreate the
same
parent to child codependency,through the guru to devote relationship,
that we're all trying to escape.

I say this
especially because my experience is that negativity IS abuse and
abuse
IS precisely the weight, the violence,that enlightenment wishes to
drop,transcend, find liberation from.


Forme, it only stands to reason,however, that it is precisely those
of
us who have felt too abused who finally decide to seek
enlightenment.Thus,it is to be expected that confusing abuse with
insight will occur. I would even insist that that is ITSELF the
essence of unenlightenment.

I'm thus, very opposed to austere and deadening pracices such as Zen,
or Hindu assaults on the body, for example.

           love,                    sky

Dear Louis,

Thank you for your humorous words - always an acceptable form of Guru
Lakshmi (currency) in the these parts...the hard granite streets of
London. :-)

(To update the other listeners) We did correspond briefly about your
post: I had just returned from a very nice sharing of my Perspective
in Glastonbury, and was basically saying 'Hi! I'll reply shortly'. I
commented:

>>thanks for your position... one I've met frequently

and you replied

>It all felt very familiar when I was writing it and I was wondering
>why I was bothering.

Good! Maybe it is all dropping away naturally - "most definitely" (
in my finest 'India of the Raj' accent and a cool figure of '8' waggle
of the head and finger).

Do you still need a reply?

You endeavoured to meet me for an informal meeting in Hyde Park. If
we do meet then we might find that all your most troubling doubts and
questions are put to bed - forever.

Let's face it: This sort of thing just isn't done over the Net -
well, not traditionally! :-)

Dave Oshana

DaveOshana
@hotmail.com   www.egroups.com/group/oshana

>
>FROM: louis_mitchell@...
>DATE: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 02:36:29 -0500
>SUBJECT: RE: [oshana] Can Enlightenment be Deepened or Lost?
>
>Dear Dave no more,
> How can you be certain after just 2
>months? It would seem to me that it is impossible to prove
>that something is eternal and infinite. From what position
>could it be tested, how could you get outside of it to say
>anything objective about it? You are defining enlightment in
>your way but it is not the same as others, and even those
>that declare themselves permanently enlightened differ in
>their description. From my humble, unenlightened position I
>think that many that declare their enlightenment are
>declaring a "state of mind". Similar to an affirmation -
>
>Demonstrating itself as love, freedom, humour and radiance.
>In the end, I feel anything that can be said is insignificant to
>what is demonstrated.
>It will be interesting to see what happens with you over time.  I
>always felt enlightenment was the beginning of life so lets see how
>you live it.
>              Love Louis.

Royal,

Thanks for your timely words and concise quote.

It reminds me of conversation I had after I became aware that there
had been a 'shift' in my
perspective - from identifying as David - to seeing I was not David,
but something else- let's say
the Observer.

One cranio-sacral practitioner who I assume is a Sogyal Rinpoche
student - recommended I go to
the Lama for a chat. Something which I might do if I could easily
connect up with him but Rigpa
tell me that he is not on email - yet!

It seems a particularly Buddhist thing to talk of stages: Awakening
to
Nirvana (The A-Zen of
Enlightenment). I hear John de Ruiter may be making a similar
distinction, and that so far he has
only found one in the last stage - himself. Fair enough! :-)

I recently shared my perspective in Glastonbury - the UK's New Age
Mecca like Sedona to the
US-A or Byron Bay to Astralasia. There I met with an old friend, an
ex-Iskcon (Hare Krsna)
devotee, and a wicked kirtan player who knew me previously only as
"Dave the Stand Up
Comedian" (a very occasional, voluntary contribution to weddings and
funerals!).

Buddhists, like all schools have a particular view on Reality. My
Iskcon friend discovered  God,
in the form of Krsna and this turned his life around as a teenager.
Ramana Maharshi, I assume,
would hold that that was just a vision. I would too. But who am I to
deny someone's experience?
So we just agree to disagree about Reality. Also, I hear, Ramana
would
talk to people using their
own understandings. That is very good.

  I had sensuous experiences of what I believed could be 'God' in my
teens. However, I never took
a firm position because I felt that the experiences could have come
from within me - a deep place
perhaps - but not from outside (says Cloud Nine or Mars Sector 7)
nonetheless.

I now see such experiences as secondary to who I am. I still love to
sing all sorts of bhajans
which my Hare Krsna friend finds positively interesting. However, I
am
not singing to find God.
My search is over. It is impossible to search because, from where I
stand, I am at home.

I accept that after 'my' Awakening,  that the manifested personality
can be fined tuned to be nicer
and nicer and nicer...ad infinitum. But that is just a social thing
and has nothing to do with 'Being
at Home'.

I do find now that I am naturally compassionate. The compassion goes
around, not through, my
personality. I am sort of embarrassed to admit that I probably have
not manifested such strong
compassion and openness since I was a charity worker over 15 years
ago.

The Royal's Buddhist quote asserts that:
  "Supreme Enlightenment (i.e., to be rid of all  afflictions, to
discard all sediments) ... Only then
can he completely trust his mind and actions."

This is an interesting and worthy issue for enlightenment analysts .
Briefly, I'd say that I just do
what I do, and in doing that I am just as much pleasantly surprised
by
what happens as anyone
else (perhaps more so). I give up!

For me any tendencies to do an inappropriate thing is taken care of
for me. So I don't feel that "I"
need to be vigilant. It just happens.

I am considering my opinion on so-called 'crazy wisdom' teachers.
Could they be Liberated?
Certainly they and their students might appear `liberated from
social
etiquette'. However, if
abuse is a small or large part  of their teaching method,  then it
stands in contrast with my
experience of compassion which manifests itself as gentleness when I
share my perspective in
public Dialogues.

Love Light and noodles,

Dave Oshana

DaveOshana
@hotmail.com   www.egroups.com/group/oshana

--- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, royalsan@h... wrote:

Re: Can Enlightenment be Deepened or Lost?

> Greetings Dave,
>
> It is my understanding that enlightenment is a process by way of
> which the soul may achieve Nirvana.  On the path, it is possible to
> regress, until the soul becomes one with Divine Consciousness, at
> which point there is no going back.  I found a definition in a
> glossary of Buddhist terms and provide it for your contemplation.
>
> 'Awakening vs. Enlightenment
> A clear distinction should be made between awakening to the Way
> (Great Awakening) and attaining the Way (attaining Enlightenment).
> (Note: There are many degrees of Awakening and Enlightenment.
> Attaining the Enlightenment of the Arhats, Pratyeka Buddhas,
> Bodhisattvas, etc. is different from attaining Supreme
Enlightenment,
> i.e., Buddhahood.)
> To experience a Great Awakening is to achieve (through Zen
> meditation, Buddha Recitation, etc.) a complete and deep
realization
> of what it means to be a Buddha and how to reach Buddhahood. It is
to
> see one's Nature, comprehend the True Nature of things, the Truth.
> However, only after becoming a Buddha can one be said to have truly
> attained Supreme Enlightenment (attained the Way). A metaphor
> appearing in the sutras is that of a glass of water containing
> sediments. As long as the glass is undisturbed, the sediments
remain
> at the bottom and the water is clear. However, as soon as the glass
> is shaken, the water becomes turbid. Likewise, when a practitioner
> experiences a Great Awakening (awakens to the Way), his afflictions
> (greed, anger and delusion) are temporarily suppressed but not yet
> eliminated. To achieve Supreme Enlightenment (i.e., to be rid of
all
> afflictions, to discard all sediments) is the ultimate goal. Only
> then can he completely trust his mind and actions. Before then, he
> should adhere to the precepts, keep a close watch on his mind and
> thoughts, like a cat stalking a mouse, ready to pounce on evil
> thoughts as soon as they arise. To do otherwise is to court certain
> failure, as stories upon stories of errant monks, roshis and gurus
> demonstrate.'
> http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/glossary.html#A
>
> Loving thoughts from a fellow soul on the path,
> Royal

Can Enlightenment be Deepened or Lost?

There is a lot of talk about gaining and losing enlightenment. Andrew
Cohen says his students do. Apparently, Ramesh Balsekar says one goes
in and out and finally stays there. A number of Papaji followers talk
about `deepening'.

From my perspective, enlightenment cannot deepen. It cannot do
"anything" and nothing can be done to IT.

I am infinite and eternal. "IT" cannot get any deeper than
this. I hear that Ramesh has called these temporary experiences of
enlightenment: "free samples". I don't know if he is
suggesting that these "free samples" are  in fact  the real
thing
i.e."enlightenment" or just copies.

"Free samples" are limited products. The infinity and
eternity of enlightenment could not be squashed into a free sample
sachet.

There is no coming and going either. Does anyone come back from the
dead? Could they? Why would they?

Following the same reasoning (briefly): once the ego has been
`killed' then what is left? If the ego comes back then it was
never dead. My understanding of `ego' is simply
identification with
this human life which is called David.

There is no half way here, but only two mutual opposites, either one
is identified with this human life or one is not.

I have tested this "enlightenment" (which I noticed exactly 2
months
ago after having called off the search and returning home). I
sought to test this "enlightenment" in order to discover if
it was just a passing physiological state. This enlightenment has
been unshakeable, nothing has moved it. There is no coming and going.

Dave Oshana
                          daveoshana
                         @hotmail.com
www.egroups.com/group/oshana

Blissed Out!?

People do go into bliss/peace from time to time, and some do it a lot
(maybe you are one of them or know someone close to you who does)! It
is  a special power or ability that allows people to be taken into
bliss. Actually, it is very contagious. Quite a few seekers, as well
as, 'teachers' can do it. However, it only indicates that 'bliss' as
a temporary state is there. Real 'bliss' is neutral. It cannot be
felt by anyone.

Anything you *feel* be it silence, peace, contentment, etc - they
will all pass away.

Dave Oshana


Dave Oshana Interactive Dialogue Transcript

Dave: Look beyond your last description...what is the experience of
you, now?
Questioner:  <pause> ...Bliss! ....Bliss!......Just Bliss! <laughs>
Dave: Do you want to stop there...to stay with the bliss, or do you
want to
go beyond...beyond this present bliss?Questioner: I'll keep the bliss.
Dave: And.....Questioner: I'm afraid it will end.
Dave:  If it does end then it isn't real...but there is a real
bliss..a 24-7
bliss ...24 hours a day/ 7 days a week ..it just goes on and on,
forever and
ever....


There are many types of bliss but only one that lasts forever.  Have
you got that bliss yet?

Dave Oshana's Interactive  Permanent-Bliss Dialogues
Radical Identity Changing Dialogues

What use is 'a Dialogue with Life itself' on the Internet?
Dear Friend,

It is proposed that the Oshana list will include transcripts of
Interactive Permanent-Bliss Dialogues - real conversations with real
people from public and private meetings.

However, I would like to point out that if a Dialogue is to be
life-changing that it should be *your* dialogue. It is *you* that
gets 'IT' and it is *you* that will change - finally, forever,
permanently.

Having said that, useful qualities result from 'over-hearing' the
Dialogues: faith, commitment, staying power, insight, peace, bliss,
joy and contentment.

But the 'job' is not done until the 'contentment' is permanent. This
'contentment' is of a radically different order compared with  any
experience that I had before it happened. It is unshakeable, and
brings many desirable secondary benefits: stability,
security, wonder, awe, clarity, definiteness, confidence.

These gifts are not for me to hide. But to give away, to share with
you who wants to take them, meaning: to find them in yourself, to be
completely satisfied, to be finished with `searching for
more'.

I will endeavour to answer online queries as time permits and publish
extract here (anonymously if you prefer). But what could be better
than meeting for `real' over a cup of herbal tea or a
steaming bowl of
noodles?

much love,

dave oshana