snip

> Forgive me, but I don't know what to think anymore.  I really need help
with
> this.

snip

My prayers are with you as we all need help in this.  That is why ask the
following question:  There is a statement on the ROCOR site, Feb., in
Russian.  It has been there almost a whole month now....there is no English
translation.  Why?  Will no one translate this?

Theoedora in the mountains

--- In orthodox-synod@y..., msopts@a... wrote:
>
> The article mentions that the monastery's website and brochures still cite
> ties to "its former New York church."  I specifically verified with the
> author that these were references to ROCOR.  Shouldn't ROCOR insist that
> these references be removed immediately?


One would think so . . .
    Michael Woerl

Melanie- the website link doesn't seem to work- what is the  web address?

=====
Catherine

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

Nektarious-  I think this thing has been brewing for a long time.  I had no
idea there was even an INTEREST in uniting with the Patriarchate despite some
things said to me several years ago by a former ROCOR priest- now MP priest.  I
think one reason people are leaving is that they do not want to be under the
Patriarchate, for a variety of reasons.  I cannot help but think another reason
is the treatment Met. Vitaly received on several occasions.  Despite ROCOR's
official denial of these events as planned, approved actions, one wonders, as
the perpetrators have not, to my knowledge, been punished for their actions.
This of course, is bound to bring into question one's loyalties to ROCOR. This
is, you understand, just my spin on what has gone on.  It is of course, VERY
troubling.

Catherine

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

I just checked www.synod.com and the translation into English is there.

hristofor.

At 11:27 PM 2/28/2002, you wrote:

>snip
>
> > Forgive me, but I don't know what to think anymore.  I really need help
>with
> > this.
>
>snip
>
>My prayers are with you as we all need help in this.  That is why ask the
>following question:  There is a statement on the ROCOR site, Feb., in
>Russian.  It has been there almost a whole month now....there is no English
>translation.  Why?  Will no one translate this?
>
>Theoedora in the mountains
>
>
>
>
>
>Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

The translation is on-line, at
http://www.rocor.org/letters/2002-02-22--synod-statement-re.html#e

I would guess that the reason it took some time for it to be translated is
that our Bishops are over-worked and
the SYNOD is under-staffed and under-financed... A lot of work is done be
priests who are not paid, and
have to work secular jobs on top of their pastoral labors...  Perhaps the
organizational state of the SYNOD
reflects the state of piety in the church at large, and the small number of
faithful??

Someone said at the time of the revolution that because the Russian people
had forgotten God, they no longer
deserved an Orthodox Monarch.  Perhaps we do not deserve an efficient church
organization?  I know that I
do not.

In Christ,
Nicholas

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
             From: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
             Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
             Date: 1 Mar 2002 13:52:20 -0000

             >That is why ask the
             >following question:  There is a statement on the ROCOR site,
Feb., in
             >Russian.  It has been there almost a whole month now....there
is no English

>There is a statement on the ROCOR site, Feb., in
>Russian.  It has been there almost a whole month now....there is no English
>translation.  Why?  Will no one translate this?
>
>Theoedora in the mountains


There has been an English version there since yesterday - there is a link right
under the Russian version.  For the record, the Russian went up the 22nd,
English the 28th - six days apart, not a month.  Also, if you see Russian pages
and are desperate for a translation no matter how rudimentary it may be, try
Promt's online translator http://www.translate.ru/  You can give it a URL and it
will give you enough of a translation that you can at least get the general idea
of what the piece is about.

Rebekah Moser

English Translation found at:
TODAY'S NEWS from http://www.

STATEMENT from the Office of the Chancery of the Synod of Bishops
of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad - February 9/22, 2002
ROCOR - During recent months, the Synod of Bishoops has become the object of
persistent and severe attacks from those who call themselves zealots and
protectors of His Eminence Metropolitan Vitaly from so-called "Synodal
pretensions." They endlessly repeat that the Synod of Bishops allegedly "strives
to seize the personal property and money of Metropolitan Vitaly that he had put
aside for his old age." The regrettable disingenuity of these accusations ought
to be, it would seem, clear to all church-minded servants of God. For if one
allows that the retired Metropolitan Vitaly "set aside" Church property
registered in his own name, donated by God-fearing people, then his
false-defenders implicate the elder bishop in a grievous crime. Moreover,
according to Sacred Canons, if a bishop, abiding in his place of service,
received any money or property, he must absolutely return it to his Church.
Otherwise he will be regarded a thief of ecclesiastical property. It can be
supposed that these zealots are not well-versed in Sacred Canons, but it is
impossible to imagine that Metropolitan Vitaly did not know them. When under
past circumstances donations and bequests left by generous lovers of God of good
memory intended solely to serve the needs of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside
of Russia were registered in the name of Vladyka Vitaly, he clearly could not
imagine that he could "put aside for his old age" this church property given to
him for preservation. The truth, diligently hidden from naive and bewildered
people is that the grave infirmities suffered by the elder-Metropolitan
unfortunately render him incapable of acting independently. This fact is being
taken advantage of by those who are possessed by pride, who have lost the
ability to reason, who are tempted by status. Still, we hope that they simply do
not see what they do, for their insane deeds are being directed in turn by
those, unseen by them, who are the original enemies of the Lord, coldly plunging
our Church into the abyss of schism, hoping to deal a final blow at the pastors
and scatter the flock of Christ.
The Synod of Bishops has already twice stated its attitude towards the
regrettable events of November 9/22 in Mansonville, recognizing that any
violence in connection with Metropolitan Vitaly is inadmissible. The Synod also
has decided temporarily to divide the Canadian Diocese into two parts: Eastern
and Western. The Western half is under the care of Bishop Kyrill of Western
America and San Francisco, and custody of the Eastern portion is entrusted to
Bishop to Gabriel of Manhattan. But we will follow the ancient rule: "May the
other side be heard." It is necessary to take into account that the events of
that day in many respects could have resulted from the provocation of
ill-intentioned individuals. This is what was said in the Statement from the
Office of the Canadian Diocese at the time (quoted in part): "Already at the
entrance [to the Monastery] Bishop Michael was prevented from approaching
Metropolitan Vitaly in every possible way. Nevertheless, he managed to do so,
and the Metropolitan agreed to the expressed desire to a private conversation.
They intended to set off to the Metropolitan's chambers. But this was prevented
by Fr. Vladimir (Tselistchev), who asked the Metropolitan to bless him to
accompany him with Sergei Agu, bearing a videocamera, and with Fr. Sergius
(Kindjakov). For this reason, a portion of the conversation in the
Metropolitan's chambers was conducted in their presence. Bp. Michael and Fr.
Pavel Iwasjewicz spent only about fifteen minutes [alone] with him. In the
course of the conversation with Vladyka Metropolitan, in response to his
question as to what was happening, Bp. Michael said that despite the
Metropolitan's own announcements of his retirement, those surrounding Vladyka
Vitaly placed him at the head of some parallel church structure in exile. All
this had created a schism and conflict. Bp. Michael also offered to Vladyka
Metropolitan to go with him to the Synod, where they could go immediately. The
Metropolitan agreed to this. He donned his skufia and, with the help of those
around him, the coat of Fr. Pavel Iwasjewicz. But as soon as Vladyka
Metropolitan, Bishop Michael and Fr. Pavel Iwasjewicz left the room, they were
literally beset by a crowd. The Metropolitan was shoved also, and, tripping, he
fell. Passions reached their climax near the car, and Bishop Michael was struck
hard in the face, which caused injury to his eye. Still, he was able to sit
inside the car next to the Metropolitan. At this time the police arrived and
prevented the visitors from leaving. Negotiations lasted about an hour. Then
word arrived that the court received an appeal of the other side, which was
accepted for consideration."
In publishing the present statement, the Synod of Bishops in no way wishes to
prolong the conflict, but again and again calls for everyone to come to their
senses and to turn to the Lord with the words of the Psalm-singer: "Show me the
way, Lord, and I will follow."
In order to prevent the theft of church property entrusted to him by the Church
Canons, the Synod of Bishops was forced, against its wishes, to turn to the
civil authorities. This does not mean that we are involving them in internal
church troubles, for the false-protectors themselves have publicly stated that
they left our Church. We also categorically deny accusations that allegedly "the
Synod is suing the Metropolitan." This is not so, brothers and sisters. In
seeking to protect Church property, which belongs to the whole Church, intended
only for the needs of Church life, at the same time we hope to protect our
beloved elder-Metropolitan from being included among the thieves of this
property. As was already stated many times, we would be happy to receive Vladyka
Vitaly in the United States. We would do everything humanly possible to provide
him with care and attention suitable to his rank, his years and his service to
the Church. Should His Eminence Vladyka Metropolitan so desire, he could of
course stay in Mansonville. But then let the above-mentioned individuals not
separate him from the other bishops, his long-time spiritual friends and
colleagues. To our great sorrow, those who are in fact holding Metropolitan
Vitaly captive, possessed by unrighteous fury which has made them alien to the
Church, are prepared to take any steps to achieve their goals. But "Ye ask, and
receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts."
(James 4:3) To those who as a result of confusion or bewilderment have found
themselves among these people, we turn your attention to other words of the
Apostle: "For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his
tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile." (1 Peter 3:10)
+Bishop GABRIEL, Secretary Synod of Bishops
February 9/22, 2002




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was told once at Jordanville by (I think) Fr Luke that the present-day
ROCOR kept the original order of wording in designating the Titles of Sees
in the Diaspora designated an early Sobor of the Church Abroad prior to the
Evlogian or Metropolia schisms.  That Council put the region first and the
titular See second (e,g. Western America and San Francisco) whereas the
Metropolia after its final break from the the Church Abroad began to
designate its Dioceses the other way around (e.g. San Francisco and Western
America).  Of course I cannot site written documentation for this anywhere.
We are dealing here with my own (perhaps faulty) recollection of what an
authority told me.

For the record, it seems to me that historically the Orthodox Church as a
whole designated Sees by the Metropolis and not the Region, but, as with all
generalizations, there are exceptions to this rule.

Priest David C. Straut
Orthodox Church of St Elizabeth the New-Martyr (ROCOR)
Somerville, New Jersey

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fr Michael Protopopov" <proto@...>
To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Bishops titles


> In ROCA this is set by the Synod.  In San Francisco there was an issue
> with the OCA bishop being style A and so as not to confuse our Synod
> decided that our bishop would be style B.
>
> pvgol@... wrote:
>
> >  So is it possible that in one jurisdiction, dioceses #1 may
> > commemorate their
> > Bishop as Bishop of City and Diocese #1 and  dioceses #2 will
> > commemorate
> > their Bishop of Diocese #2 and City?
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>                         ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> >
> > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

In a message dated 3/1/02 5:38:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
flicka68@... writes:


> Melanie- the website link doesn't seem to work- what is the  web address?

The web address to the article is:

<http://news.mysanantonio.com/story.cfm?xla=saen&xlb=130&xlc=611174>

If that still doesn't work for you, try going to:

<http://news.mysanantonio.com>

and doing a search for "Blanco & monastery."

Melanie Jula Sakoda



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, thank you and someone who saw it yesterday afternoon..I did not look as
my time on machine was limited late last night..sent it to me and it was on
another list this am.

Theodora


  snip
>
> There has been an English version there since yesterday - there is a link
right
> under the Russian version.  For the record, the Russian went up the 22nd,
> English the 28th - six days apart, not a month.  Also, if you see Russian
pages
> and are desperate for a translation no matter how rudimentary it may be,
try
> Promt's online translator http://www.translate.ru/  You can give it a URL
and it
> will give you enough of a translation that you can at least get the
general idea
> of what the piece is about.
>
> Rebekah Moser
snip

Fr. Michael wrote:
>In ROCA this is set by the Synod.  In San Francisco there was an issue
>with the OCA bishop being style A and so as not to confuse our Synod
>decided that our bishop would be style B.


This is correct. Actually, in San Francisco the problem was that there
were, at the same time, **two** Archbishop Johns: (secular last names
Shakhovskoy and Maximovitch).


With love in Christ,

Prot. Alexander Lebedeff

To everyone who is indeed bothered by the actions of the people from
Mansonville, the ROCiE..

Which has been bothering me for some time, I came across a quote made by
Saint John the Wonderworker, in the San Francisco News Call Bulletin on
Aptil 29, 1963, which may help to ease the pain of we who are simply caught
in the middle.  I offer it to this group...
------

"I'm a monk so I have to obey whatever the synod decides ... obey without
asking questions."

"remain faithful to the synod," and to "abstain from hasty action."

Vladyka's wisdom, echoing from the grave.

With Love In Christ,
Nektarius

Peter Messires Aka Archimandrite Damian Messires was recently registered as a
sex offender in the state of Florida.

<http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Sexual_Predators/OffenderFlyer.asp?keys=39675>

To read more about the circumstances surrounding his arrest and conviction,
go to:

<http://www.naplesnews.com/01/08/naples/d664528a.htm>

Melanie Jula Sakoda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Do you know why in the late 1960's Saint John
Maximovitch, got involved in legal battles??

It was because of fanatics who wanted him gone as
Archbishop of Western America and San Francisco, for
offering up prayers to the newly installed Patriarch
Alexey 1.

So the Russian fanatics wanted him gone for this,
which they ultimately failed, and Saint John was
Glorified before God.

Suring any times of trouble, Saint John would tell the
faithful, to trust in your bishop, for the church lies
with them.  I admit there are things that bother me,
and many others...

But Moscow has not done the things the Synod of
bishops of the Church Abroad have requested, so
communion is still severed!!!

These fantics are leaving for things that havent
occured.  They leave, because they think "things" are
going to happen!

This is Orthodox fanaticsm..

They like to talk about the spirit of "something" that
has entered the church through new-calendarists and
modernists and ecumenists and so forth, yet I would
simply ask that they look in the mirror and see all
the damage that they are causing.  Their outlandish
judgments of people they have never met, their open
condemnation of their bishops and hierarchs.

I have been with the Church Abroad for 67 years, and
the Church Abroad I am apart of is the same Church
Abroad I fled with from Serbia those many years ago,
If the Church Abroad has changed, it has moved more to
the right then anything.  I was born Orthodox, I was
raised Orthodox, I knew St. John very well, I knew
Father Justin Popvich, I knew St. Nicholas
Velimirovich very well, and may I say, that the
Orthodoxy they preached, which I had the blessing to
hear first hand from all three, is the same as the
Orthodoxy that the Church Abroad upholds till this
day..

And I am furious with half-wits who have not lived
with the Church Abroad long enough to make any
intelligent comment regarding them.  Converts who
think they know more than the Orthodox who have been
there long before they came along.  All I hear is
blasphemous talk from arrognat people, who are so
willing to condemn the Church to condemn Christ.
Varnave is the ring leader, I remember in the early
80's, when he was up for a possible bishopric, many
faithful did not want him to become a bishop, because
they felt he and his extremist tendensies, would
create schism in the church.. Even Vladyka Filaret was
against it, privately of course, anyone with class
would not bring things like this out in the open, but
I feel I must speak out!!

I will only say, in the words of Vladyka John, "Remain
faithful to the Synod and to the Church Abroad"

Especially when nothing has occured!!

We are still in communion with Serbia and Jerusalem.
We are not in communion with new-calendarists, which
may I say, Saint John served with new calendarist
bishops many times, as did Father Justin and St.
Nicholai Velimirovich.

They are not outside Orthodoxy, they have been
attacked head first by the evil one, and it has
tainted their church, and we so openly condemn them,
at the same time we turn our backs on them.. We must
help them.

Same thing with Moscow.  How are you suppose to have
dialogue with someone if you turn your back on them
and refuse their existense, not even giving them the
proper respect.  Even Vladyka Filaret said "we cannot
indefinately remain seperate from the Moscow Church."
They are incomplete without us as are we without them,
we both will not survive without each other.  They are
coming to understand that, and so must we.


>>>>He didn't hand over his staff to the New Metr.
>>>>


He didnt hand over his staff to the next hierarch
because he was stolen!!!

I know a few people, who have known Vladyka for nearly
fifty years, as long as he's been a bishop, who cant
even speak to him in Mansonville, any one who doesnt
believe and who knows Vladyka well, try calling
there..  See if you can get him on the phone, you will
find that this impossible, they always have an excuse
for anyone not to talk to him.  Anyone who knows
Vladyka, knows how easy it was to get him on the
phone, The last time I called him, was to ask his
advise regarding one of my kids, and another thing, he
would always call people to wish them a happy name
day, always!! He did not do that for me, or for anyone
else I know in recent months.  He called me last year
to wish me a happy name day, he called George, he
called Piotr, etc.  Except this year nothing!!

Why?  I mean am I the only one, who notices these
things??  Not him not wishing me a happy name day. It
is the overall change.  They keep him locked up!!!

You know what, I am going to go up there myself to
speak with him alone.  And let's see if that can
happen, and I am going to take someone with me to
document it, with a hidden camera and eveything.

Because he is the only one their who is legitimate,
and they keep a strangle hold on him.

And I can bet, that they are not going to let me talk
to him..  If I can get to him, which I doubt, and it
would be a wasted trip, but at least I will have
evidence that they are restricting his personal
freedom, If I can get to talk to him though, I am
going to tell him, their are now two ROCOR churches,
Varnava has established a second church and has used
your nakme to create schism in the Church Abroad,
small as it may be.  Yet it has been done.  And well
shall se, if Andrew or Fr. Serge, ooh excuse me,
"bishop" Serge are going to let me in the door.. I
really believe they wont let me see the Metropolitan,
who married me no less to my wife of 30 years, when he
was Archbishop..  Let's just say for those of you who
dont know me, Vladyka and my family have been very
close for many years, he and my father were very close
friends.

What they are doing is bringing the Mathewitte heresy
into the Russian church, which was condmened by all
the Metropolitans and all the Synods of the Church
Abroad throughout the years..


With Christ's Love,
Ioann






----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@...>
To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>;
<orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com>;
<christianos1@...>
Cc: <orthodox-tradition@yahoogroups.com>;
<orthodoxtruth@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Mansonville Synod....
help!


>
> Be careful not to take words out of context.
>
> Metr.Vitaly. many priests and people begged the
Bishops to rescind the
> letter to Patr.Pavel and the commitee for dialogue
with MP.
>
> One Bishop did not sign the statement of the Synod
and Metr.Vitaly and 2
> other Bishops rescinded their signature until there
was a another conference
> to go over this statement the Synod made. At the
second Council Metr.Vitaly
> was forced to resign and left an hoyr into the first
meeting. He didn't hand
> over his staff to the New Metr.
>
> Hence, the Robber Synod!
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "OrthodoxTruth" <orthodoxtruth@...>
> Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
> To: <orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com>,
<orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>,
> "Reader Andrew Moulton" <christianos1@...>
> CC: <orthodox-tradition@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [orthodox-synod] Mansonville Synod....
help!
> Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 09:52:59 -0800
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>
> To everyone who is indeed bothered by the actions of
the people from
> Mansonville, the ROCiE..
>
> Which has been bothering me for some time, I came
across a quote made by
> Saint John the Wonderworker, in the San Francisco
News Call Bulletin on
> Aptil 29, 1963, which may help to ease the pain of
we who are simply caught
> in the middle.  I offer it to this group...
> ------
>
> "I'm a monk so I have to obey whatever the synod
decides ... obey without
> asking questions."
>
> "remain faithful to the synod," and to "abstain from
hasty action."
>
> Vladyka's wisdom, echoing from the grave.
>
> With Love In Christ,
> Nektarius
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN
Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com

__________________________________________________
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-----Original Message-----
From: David Moser <moserd@...>
To: Thea <Thea1234567@...>; Susanna (Linda) Maxwell
<lindasue@...>; Scott &Vicki Childs
<nobochil@...>; Rick & Mary Cook <appguru@...>; Rdr.
Joseph Miller <rsjmil@...>; Protopriest Alexander Lebedev
<lebedeff@...>; Protopresbyter John Shaw <vrevjrs@...>;
Protopres. Peter Perekrestov <ruspast@...>; Priest Peter Shashkoff
<fr_peter_shashkoff@...>; Priest Martin Swanson <rmswanson@...>;
Priest Joseph Huneycutt <Orthodixie@...>; Priest Luke Huggins
<frlukeHuggins@...>; Priest John McCuen <fool4chr@...>; Priest Gregory
Williams <frgregory@...>; Priest Alexey Young <fr_alexy@...>;
Phil Atlakson <atlakson@...>; Patrick Barnes (Orthodoxinfo.com)
<patrick@...>; MM Ossorgin <ossorgin@...>; Miri
<ainabelethiel@...>; Matushka Maria Kotar <masyaktr@...>;
Matushka Alexandra Adams <matalexandra@...>; Macarii Maxwell
<bmax@...>; list - youth <orthodoxyouthtalk@yahoogroups.com>; list -
orthodox-synod <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>; list - rocaclergy
<rocaclergy@yahoogroups.com>; list - orthodox-convert
<orthodox-convert@yahoogroups.com>; list - ocbooks
<orthodoxchristianbooks@yahoogroups.com>; list - church affairs
<rocorclergy@yahoogroups.com>; Kate Taylor <jdrt@...>; Joseph
McClellen <grsfm@...>; Joel _ slu <moserjd@...>; Fr. Gregory
Horton <abounagregory@...>; Farley, Paul <Paul.Farley@...>;
Don and Carol Oakes <oakesdc@...>; Dcn Dimitri <FrDcnDimitri@...>;
Dad and Mom Moser <ARTMILM@...>; Christopher Stewart
<kstewart@...>; Cathy Nakao <cnakao@...>; Archpriest
Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...>; All-Merciful Saviour Monastery
<asrom@...>
Date: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 11:29 AM
Subject: new email address


>Due to a change in providers, I have a new email address:  it is
moserd@...
>.  Please make whatever changes are appropriate for your addresses.  I am
>certain that some of you will receive multiple notifications of this and for
>that nusiance I ask your forgiveness.  The "micron.net" addess will continue to
>be valid for this month.
>
>We did experience an email problem last weekend so anyone who sent me personal
>email between Friday March 1 and Tuesday March 5 - I may not have received it
>and you may wish to resend.
>
>Priest David Moser   +++   moserd@...
>St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
>Boise, Idaho
>
>
>

The RUSSIAN ECCLESIASTICAL MISSION in JERUSALEM is happy to announce that it is
now ONLINE.

     <jerusalem-mission.org>

--------------------

Archimandrite Peter
Chief of the Mission

Russian Ecclesiastical Mission
P.O. Box 20164
Jerusalem 91200, Israel

tel: 972-2 / 628-3088
fax: 972-2 / 628-6382



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

An interesting, but disturbing, comment from a leading RC Cardinal on
Rome's relationship with the Church of Antioch. See particularly the
fifth to last paragraph.
Vatican disinformation? - or........


ZENIT - The World Seen From Rome




----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

Code: ZE02030721

Date: 2002-03-07

The Crisis of Ecumenism, According to Cardinal Kasper

A Delicate Project "Totally Different from Relativism"

ROME, MARCH 7, 2002 (Zenit.org).- The ecumenical movement risks
losing young people unless it can produce a vision for the future,
says the cardinal who oversees the cause.

Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for
Promoting Christian Unity, recently delivered an address evaluating
ecumenism. The address appears in the latest edition of the Italian
biweekly Il Regno.

"To a certain degree, the crisis of the ecumenical movement is the
consequence of its success," the German cardinal writes.

"The more we come closer to one another, the more painful is the
experience of not yet being in full communion among ourselves, which
creates a certain dissatisfaction and frustration," he states.

Moreover, "the new generation of faithful and priests has not lived
through the council and does not understand how things have changed,"
Cardinal Kasper observes.

In this context, he mentions three key challenges:

--"In the first place, we must promote ecumenical formation and the
reception of ecumenical results. The results of ecumenical progress
have yet to penetrate the heart and flesh of our Church and of the
other Churches."

--"In the second place, we must clarify and renew the ecumenical
vision. We need a new ecumenical language and impulse. We run the
risk of losing a whole generation of youths if we are not capable of
giving them a vision."

--Third, Cardinal Kasper appealed for the harmonizing of dialogue and
identity. In this context, he emphasizes, "One can see what the
problem and advantages of ´Dominus Iesus´ are, which highlighted the
question of identity."

"Dominus Iesus" was the August 2000 declaration by the Congregation
for the Doctrine of the Faith on the uniqueness and salvific
universality of Jesus and the Church. Though criticized for sounding
less than ecumenical, it basically reiterated magisterial teaching on
the nature of the Catholic Church.

"We must underline clearly that serious ecumenism is something
totally different from confessional indifference and relativism; it
tends to gravitate around the highest common denominator," Cardinal
Kasper states.

The cardinal then reviews the situation of relations between
Catholics and other Christian confessions.

"We are increasingly conscious of the fact that an Orthodox Church
does not really exist," he contends. "At the present stage, it does
not seem that Constantinople is yet capable of integrating the
different autocephalous Orthodox Churches; there are doubts about its
primacy of honor, especially in Moscow."

He continues: "With Moscow, dialogue at the universal level at
present is very difficult; the situation is improving with Greece; in
the Middle East, in the territory of the ancient See of Antioch, the
situation is completely different and there already is almost full
communion."

Cardinal Kasper points out the tensions within the Lutheran world on
the question of ministries as well as tensions in the realm of the
Anglican Communion.

Given the above, he believes that over the next few years, ecumenism
must progress "at two, or even more, speeds."

However, he cautions, "we must avoid giving the impression of ´divide
et impera.´ We would engage in bad ecumenism if we created new
divisions in the other Churches or confessional families, or if we
tended to a new form of ´Uniatism.´" The latter -- considered a
pejorative term in the East -- signifies the Eastern Christians who
left the Orthodox Church to join Rome.

"A two-speed ecumenism is something very delicate. However, in the
present situation there is no realistic alternative," Cardinal Kasper
concludes.

I hate to get off of the topic, but is there any truth to the rumour
that Palestinians who are Orthodox are being denied the opportunity
to attend their Churches???
I have read where Orthodox Churches have been damaged by troops and
others killed. But I have yet to find out anything concrete about
religious restrictions.
No I am not being anti-Semetic by asking this question because I know
that nowhere would the Orthodox Church condone any sort of violence
from either side. I am just curious to know.

Thanks

GERRY THOMAS

On Sat, 9 Mar 2002, ptomac_belgorod wrote:

> I hate to get off of the topic, but is there any truth to the rumour
> that Palestinians who are Orthodox are being denied the opportunity
> to attend their Churches???

Yes. The Isreaelis close the borders so that the Orthodox Palestinians
living in the Occupied Territories cannot worship in their communities.
See several of the news articles at

      http://www.angelfire.com/zine/rocanews

> I have read where Orthodox Churches have been damaged by troops and
> others killed. But I have yet to find out anything concrete about
> religious restrictions.

Several Orthodox clergy have been killed in Israeli crossfire, though I
don't think they were deliberately targeted.

In Christ,
Rd. Constantine

+----------------------------------------------------------+-------+
|Reader Constantine Wright     St. Lawrence Orthodox Church|       |
|133 Murray Springs Rd.                  Felton, California| IC|XC |
|Chatsworth, GA 30705             Patriarchate of Jerusalem| ----- |
|----------------------------------------------------------| NI|KA |
|  CHURCH WEBPAGE:  http://www.angelfire.com/zine/rocanews |       |
|    PERSONAL WEBPAGE: http://constans_wright.tripod.com   |       |
+----------------------------------------------------------+-------+

Father Peter,

Your website is awesome.  Just superb. Who is the author?

Archpriest Ilya

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fr David Straut [mailto:fr.straut@...]
> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 6:10 PM
> To: ROCA List; ROCOR List; ROCA Clergy List; ROCOR Clergy List
> Cc: John Parsells
> Subject: [orthodox-rocor] Website for the Russian Ecclesiastical
> Miission
>
>
> The RUSSIAN ECCLESIASTICAL MISSION in JERUSALEM is happy to
> announce that it is now ONLINE.
>
>     <jerusalem-mission.org>
>
> --------------------
>
> Archimandrite Peter
> Chief of the Mission
>
> Russian Ecclesiastical Mission
> P.O. Box 20164
> Jerusalem 91200, Israel
>
> tel: 972-2 / 628-3088
> fax: 972-2 / 628-6382
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ---------------------~-->
> Buy Stock for $4.
> No Minimums.
> FREE Money 2002.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/m.VolB/TM
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>
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>
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>
> List Archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Elias Gorsky" <elias.gorsky@...>
To: <orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com>; "ROCA List"
<orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>; "ROCA Clergy List"
<rocaclergy@yahoogroups.com>; "ROCOR Clergy List"
<rocorclergy@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "John Parsells" <john@...>
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 9:27 AM
Subject: [rocaclergy] RE: [orthodox-rocor] Website for the Russian
Ecclesiastical Mission


> Father Peter,
>
> Your website is awesome.  Just superb. Who is the author?
>
> Archpriest Ilya
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fr David Straut [mailto:fr.straut@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 6:10 PM
> > To: ROCA List; ROCOR List; ROCA Clergy List; ROCOR Clergy List
> > Cc: John Parsells
> > Subject: [orthodox-rocor] Website for the Russian Ecclesiastical
> > Miission
> >
> >
> > The RUSSIAN ECCLESIASTICAL MISSION in JERUSALEM is happy to
> > announce that it is now ONLINE.
> >
> >     <jerusalem-mission.org>
> >
> > --------------------
> >
> > Archimandrite Peter
> > Chief of the Mission
> >
> > Russian Ecclesiastical Mission
> > P.O. Box 20164
> > Jerusalem 91200, Israel
> >
> > tel: 972-2 / 628-3088
> > fax: 972-2 / 628-6382

Dear Fr Ilya,

As Fr Peter is not on this list yet (and that is the reason that I posted
his message for him), I will answer your qestion.  The Web Site Designer is
John Parsells, an Othodox young man and son of a priest.  He also designed
and maintains my parish's Web Site: www.saint-elizabeths.org  If anyone you
know is interested in hiring him, you may e-mail me.

Priest David C. Straut
Orthodox Church of St Elizabeth the New-Martyr (ROCOR)
Somerville, New Jersey

>From: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
>Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
Dear Gerry,
Your question regarding access of Palestinians to churches is a bit naive. I
wouldn't argue that there is a concrete policy by the Israeli Army to block
Palestinians from attending churches specifically, rather the policy is to
restrict their movement ANYWHERE, including to their places of employment,
medical treatment, relatives ten miles away, etc.
However even before the start of the present conflict (September 2000) there
were certain occasions when Palestinians have been detained or so slowed
down by Israeli security that they were unable to attend major feast day
services (for example, people from Bethlehem area not being able to enter
Jerusalem for Dormition services in Jerusalem, difficulty for Palestinians
to travel to Mount Tabor for Transfiguration, etc.)
At the present time life is a disaster for Palestinian Christians: homes
damaged, employment opportunities nil, families terrorized by Israeli forces
entering their homes. Sadly many would consider leaving the Holy Land in
order to protect their children, though visa restrictions and lack of income
make it pretty much impossible for them.
Diminishing of the local Christian community will also have a sobering
effect and weaken the vitality of the Holy Sites visited in normal times by
so many pilgrims from all over the world. It would be very welcome to have
the world Christian community make a more concerted effort to prod their
governments to work to a peaceful resolution to the conflict here.
sr. Maria, Bethany

>Message: 2
>    Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 02:54:21 -0000
>    From: "ptomac_belgorod" <ptomac_belgorod@...>
>Subject: RE: Orthodox Mission in Jerusalem
>
>I hate to get off of the topic, but is there any truth to the rumour
>that Palestinians who are Orthodox are being denied the opportunity
>to attend their Churches???
>I have read where Orthodox Churches have been damaged by troops and
>others killed. But I have yet to find out anything concrete about
>religious restrictions.
>No I am not being anti-Semetic by asking this question because I know
>that nowhere would the Orthodox Church condone any sort of violence
>from either side. I am just curious to know.
>
>Thanks
>
>GERRY THOMAS
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Evlogeite!

As an Orthodox Christin in the United States I remain grieved by the
captivity of our government to a policy of significant financial support to
the current Zionist state.  The policies of Israel towards the Palestinians
are at the least discrimminatory or worse and assure the continued injustice
that breeds all the troubles.

At the beginning of this year's Great Fast I ask the Palestinian Orthodox
among us to accept that I sincerely pray for these policies to change.

Can anyone suggest readings that are balanced and fair to both sides that
will assist my clearer understanding of the history of the Israeli state vs
Palestinian people and thus provide a clearer more thorough understanding of
the present circumstances?

Sinful, Peter Brandt-Sørheim

+++  Sooft ich auch zu Dir um Hilfe rufe, Du hörst mich in Deinem Heiligtum,
von Deinem Berg her schichst Du mir Antwort. Ganz ruhig kann ich mich
schlafen legen, weil Du mich beschützt bis ich morgens erwache.
+++  Voce mea ad Dóminum clamávi, et exaudívit me de monte sancto suo. Ego
decúbui et obdormívi; exsurréxi. quia Dóminus susténtat me.
+++  With my voice I cry unto the Lord and from His holy mountain He hears
me. I lay me down and sleep;  in the morning I arise for Thou dost keep me.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In orthodox-synod@y..., "Srs. Martha & Maria" <bethany_mm@h...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> >From: orthodox-synod@y...
> >Reply-To: orthodox-synod@y...
> Dear Gerry,
> Your question regarding access of Palestinians to churches is a bit
naive. I
> wouldn't argue that there is a concrete policy by the Israeli Army
to block
> Palestinians from attending churches specifically, rather the
policy is to
> restrict their movement ANYWHERE, including to their places of
employment,
> medical treatment, relatives ten miles away, etc.
> However even before the start of the present conflict (September
2000) there
> were certain occasions when Palestinians have been detained or so
slowed
> down by Israeli security that they were unable to attend major
feast day
> services (for example, people from Bethlehem area not being able to
enter
> Jerusalem for Dormition services in Jerusalem, difficulty for
Palestinians
> to travel to Mount Tabor for Transfiguration, etc.)
> At the present time life is a disaster for Palestinian Christians:
homes
> damaged, employment opportunities nil, families terrorized by
Israeli forces
> entering their homes. Sadly many would consider leaving the Holy
Land in
> order to protect their children, though visa restrictions and lack
of income
> make it pretty much impossible for them.
> Diminishing of the local Christian community will also have a
sobering
> effect and weaken the vitality of the Holy Sites visited in normal
times by
> so many pilgrims from all over the world. It would be very welcome
to have
> the world Christian community make a more concerted effort to prod
their
> governments to work to a peaceful resolution to the conflict here.
> sr. Maria, Bethany


I have a student from Bethlehem.  He and his whole family are
Orthodox Christians.  As of 4 PM today, he has been unable to reach
those who are still there.  He also told me that the windows of the
Church of the Nativity were blown out.
maureen
>
> >Message: 2
> >    Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 02:54:21 -0000
> >    From: "ptomac_belgorod" <ptomac_belgorod@y...>
> >Subject: RE: Orthodox Mission in Jerusalem
> >
> >I hate to get off of the topic, but is there any truth to the
rumour
> >that Palestinians who are Orthodox are being denied the opportunity
> >to attend their Churches???
> >I have read where Orthodox Churches have been damaged by troops and
> >others killed. But I have yet to find out anything concrete about
> >religious restrictions.
> >No I am not being anti-Semetic by asking this question because I
know
> >that nowhere would the Orthodox Church condone any sort of violence
> >from either side. I am just curious to know.
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >GERRY THOMAS
> >
> >
> >
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
___
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
___
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Dear Fathers & Brethren:

Fr. Vladimir from Holy Trinity Seminary has asked me to post this request to
help locate a certain person.

Below are excerpts from the letter he received:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are trying to find Nadia Merzliakoff. Last year, four of us put together
the address list for our 50th Scarsdale, NY High School Reunion (Class of
1952)...
One of our classmates was Nadia, and none of us can find her.
I was told by someone, that she had come to the US with her mother and
father from Russia, and that her father was somehow involved in some manner
with the Russian Orthodox Church. I was also told that Nadia was an only
child...
Would you be able to help us?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If any of you have heard that name or have an idea where to look, please let
us know, and we will pass on the information.

In Christ,
Dcn. Matthew Williams

Received this on another Yahoo Groups list I am on.... thought it was
worth passing along...


Dear Yahoo! Groups Members,

The Yahoo! Groups service will be down for scheduled maintenance
Friday, March 15, 9:00 PM PST (GMT-8) as we move our servers to a new
facility. We expect the service to be restored the morning of Sunday
March 17.

During this time the web site will be unavailable and email will not
be delivered. (Some users may experience email non-delivery notices
while the service is down, but all email should be delivered once
service is resumed.) Please note: once the service is restored, there
will be email delays due to backlog. We expect these delays to last
no longer than 1 day. Please do not re-send email to your group as
this will only add to delays.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.


The Yahoo! Groups Team
___End forwarded message____________


Will Semanchuk-Enser
alcoman@...

Yesterdy we had a terrible accident on I 75 of which many saw on TV. The fog
was indeed very bad for as I sat at my kitchen table one could no tsee the
woods across the street and then it rolled in like swirls of cotton, very
quickly and I could not even see the trees or shrine in my yard just outside
my kitchen window.

  A family who raises emus here once gave to me a bag of these lovely eggs
for our Parrish Sunday School.  They were a  lovely family but the father
and son were on I 75 and were killed.  Many more are hurt and so I ask you
keep all in prayers.  God give strength to all.
They did not get home last night and so we just heard this morning.

Theodora in the mountains

[Unable to display
image]

                                                    serbian ~ english

Dear fathers and brethren:

By mercy of God i arrived safely home from my  pilgrimage (Russia, Bulgaria
and Serbia) so i would like warmly  to thank you for your prayers and help,
and also ask you  for forgiveness for everything  i may have done that in any
way offended you, wronged you or scandalized you   due to my unchristian
behavior in knowledge or ignorance so please FORGIVE ME A SINNER AND PRAY FOR
ME,
also if i had been wronged in any way I gladly and wholeheartedly forgive
everything to all who may have wronged me in knowledge or ignorance.
GOD FORGIVES
My Poklon to All
thank you for your Christian Charity and may Lord bless you thousandfold for
your kindness.
have a blessed Lent

igor
                                  Brotherhood of St Nephon  +  NYC  +  br.
hadzi stefan ~ Igor  +  Bratstvo Sv Nifona



Draga bratije i oci

BOZIJOM MILOSCU ja sam se bezbedno vratio sa mog  Bogopoklonicnog putovanja
(Srbia,Rusija i Bugarska) te bih hteo da  vam se toplo zahvalim za sve vase
molitve i pomoc ,i da vas  zamolim  za oprostaj za sve cime  sam vas mozda
uvredio i sablaznio mojim nehriscanskim postupanjem u znanju ili neznanju te
vas molim  Oprostite mi i molite se za mene gresnoga.
a i ako je meni bila nanesena uvreda ili sablazan ja sve to rado i svim srcem
prastam  ,svima  koji su me  na bilo koji nacin povredili u znanju il nezanju
.
Gospod da oprosti
  moj poklon svima
hvala vam na vasoj hriscankskoj ljubavi i da vas  Gospod blagoslovi
hiljadostruko za vasu  dobrotu.
i da vam post bude blagosloven
igor


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The St John of SF Orthodox Academy website has a new home. The new
URL is www.stjohnsacademysf.org. Please make note of the address
change and check out the updated site.