orthodox-synod : Messages : 2109-2138 of 20507

" to be Orthodox means to decide the question of government
>from the point of view of the Orthodox Church; that is, to consider as
>genuine only that form of government which is both responsible to God and
>God-pleasing. [Wherefore t]he Church came to love Autocracy because
>supreme authority therein belongs to that which is least corrupted in the
>sinful human nature -- one's conscience...."

THANK you for confessing the truth about Holy Russia!

Unfortunately my english is not good enough for this!

"Bozhe, milostiv budi nam greshnym, v gresyekh nashykh, i pomilui nas!_ [O
God, be merciful to us sinners in our sins, and have mercy upon us!] For
how long, O Lord?... How long wilt Thou tolerate our sacrilege and our
blasphemies? No wonder we still pine away in exile, "strangers in a
strange land," as the Scriptures say."

I weep with you brother!

You are in my prayers

In Christ

imperfect Nikolaj

----- Original Message -----

From: intrprtr@...

To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com ; rossiia@... ; rus-am_info_services@...

Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 2:02 AM

Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Sv: Concerning ... Rights and Duties ...

At 07:21 AM 3/30/00 -0500, Antiquariu@... wrote:

>1. The autocracy will not be restored

Perhaps it will not... On the other hand, perhaps it *will*... It all
depends on us, in the final analysis...

God, by way of some of the greatest Saints ever to walk the Russian Land,
*did* promise us (and that includes those of us in the Russian Diaspora, as
well), that there *would* be a Tsar' in Russia once again. However, He
also informed us that His promises are conditioned upon a Divine-human
*synergy* (i.e., a cooperation between His will and ours). Thus, while God
is certainly willing, we also have to do *our* part.

And just what is our part? one might ask. It is a sincere repentance for
our having fallen away from Christ and for having participated in the
slaying of His Anointed One, whether through direct participation, or
through acquiescence to the deed, or through justification of the same
after the fact, as some on this List seem to be doing. For each mocking
remark made, each slanderous word uttered against God's Anointed One, is a
further participation in that dreadful sin of regicide; is the infliction
of yet another additional wound to an Innocent Victim; is a further falling
away from God!

Much like the ancient Hebrews, we Russians, too, have been presented with a
choice: God or Baal; the Way of Life or the Way of Death... Of Monarchy
or of masonry... We are the arbiters of our own future destiny -- and,
thereby, of the ultimate destiny of the world.

If we Russians repent of our sins against God and against His Anointed One
("Touch not Mine Anointed"...), we will be given a brief respite before the
End (..."and there was silence in Heaven, for the space of half an
hour"...). Russia will flourish and the Word of God (which Dostoyevskii
labelled "the New Russian Word") will go forth from there to all the earth
(..."and this Gospel of the end will be preached unto all
nations"...). And only then will the end come...

But, if we do not repent, we may as well "bring down the Final Curtain"
now, for it is true, then, that...

>1. The autocracy will not be restored

.....

>2. Saint or not, nice guy or not, Nicholas II was not capable of leading
>hungry troops to a chow hall,

*Tsk!* *Tsk!* *Tsk!* For shame! For shame! This sort of
communist-inspired "rhetoric" is entirely uncalled for, especially on a
ROCOR List -- and, in particular, as the course of the war began to turn
about when Tsar' Nikolai took over personal command in 1915, as is evident
from the words of Winston Churchill (who was not particularly partial to
Tsarist Russia, as we all know, wherefore his words bear that much more
weight), who informs us:

>Surely to no nation has fate been more malignant than to Russia. Her ship
>went down in sight of port. She had actually weathered the storm when all
>was cast away. Every sacrifice had been made; the toil was
>achieved. Despair and Tyranny usurped command at the very moment when the
>task was done.
>
>The long retreats were ended; the munition famine was broken; arms were
>pouring in; stronger, larger, better equipped armies guarded the immense
>front; the depots overflowed with strong men. Alexeiev directed the Army
>and Koltchak the Fleet. Moreover, no difficult action was now required:
>to remain in presence: to lean with heavy weight upon the far-stretched
>Teutonic line: to hold without exceptional activity the weakened hostile
>forces on her front: in a word, to endure -- that was all that stood
>between Russia and the fruits of general victory. Says Ludendorff,
>surveying the scene at the close of 1916: "Russia, in particular, produced
>very strong formations, divisions were reduced to twelve battalions, the
>batteries to six guns; new divisions were formed out of surplus fourth
>battalions and the seventh and eighth guns of each battery. This
>reorganization made a great increase of strength." (Ludendorff, Vol. I, p. 305)
>
>It meant in fact that the Russian Empire marshalled for the campaign of
>1917 a far larger and better equipped army than that with which she had
>started the war. In March the Czar was on his throne; the Russian Empire
>and people stood, the front was safe, and victory certain.
>
>It is the shallow fashion of these times to dismiss the Czarist regime as
>a purblind, corrupt, incompetent tyranny. But a survey of its thirty
>month's war with Germany and Austria should correct these loose
>impressions and expose the dominant facts. We may measure the strength of
>the Russian Empire by the battering it endured, by the disasters it had
>survived, by the inexhaustible forces it had developed, and by the
>recovery it had made. In the governments of states, when great events are
>afoot, the leader of the nation, whoever he be, is held accountable for
>failures and vindicated by success. No matter who wrought the toil, who
>planned the struggle, to the supreme responsible authority belongs the
>blame or credit for the result.
>
>Why should this stern test be denied to Nicholas II? ... He was ... of
>merciful disposition, upheld in all his daily life by his faith in
>God. But the brunt of supreme decisions centered upon him. At the summit
>where all problems are reduced to yea or nay, where events transcend the
>faculties of men and where all is inscrutable, he had to give the
>answers. His was the function of the compass-needle. War or no
>war? Advance or retreat? Right or left? Democratize or hold firm? Quit
>or persevere? These were the battlefields of Nicholas II. Why should he
>reap no honour for them? The devoted onset of the Russian armies which
>saved Paris in 1914; the mastered agony of the munitionless retreat; the
>slowly regathered forces; the victories of Brussilov; the Russian entry
>upon the campaign of 1917, unconquered, stronger than ever; has he no
>share in these? ... [T]he regime he personified, over which he presided,
>to which his personal character gave the vital spark, had at this moment
>won the war for Russia.
>
>He is about to be struck down. A dark hand ... now intervenes. Exit
>Czar. Deliver his and all he loved to wounds and death. Belittle his
>efforts, asperse his conduct, insult his memory: but pause then and tell
>us who else was found capable. Who or what could guide the Russian
>State? Men gifted and daring; men ambitious and fierce; spirits audacious
>and commanding -- of these there was no lack. But none could answer the
>few plain questions on which the life and fame of Russia turned.

(Excerpted from "The World Crisis, 1916 - 1918," pp. 223 - 225)

Equally uncalled for is the appended slandering of Alexander III, the
"Tsar'-Peacemaker" [_"Tsar'-Mirotvorets"_], by the epimethean verbal _post
scriptum_:

>and the same was true for his predecessor.

For, _au contraire_, Alexander III was a great Tsar' who...

>... reigned for only thirteen years. All these years were a time of
>profound peace. The _Gosudar'_ [Sovereign] dedicated them to caring for
>the betterment of Russia's domestic strength and prosperity. The military
>was improved, several warships were built, a military harbour was
>constructed in Libau. To ameliorate the well-being of the residents of
>Siberia, the building of a railroad was begun through the whole of this
>far-distant and remote _okraina_ [frontier region] of Russia. Peasant
>banks were set up in many of the _gubernii_ [government districts] of the
>Empire, which provided the peasants with loans to acquire
>land.
>
>+++++ FINALLY, IN 1891 AND 1892, THE EMPEROR SAVED AN ENTIRE _KRAI_
>[REGION] FROM FAMINE AND DEATH BY STARVATION; HE COMMANDED THAT SUPPLIES
>FOR TWENTY _GUBERNII_ BE PURCHASED AT GOVERNMENT EXPENSE AND AT THE
>EXPENSE OF PRIVATE TAX-PAYERS. THE HEIR TO THE THRONE, ... _GOSUDAR'_
>EMPEROR NIKOLAI ALEKSANDROVICH AND THE ENTIRE IMPERIAL FAMILY LIKEWISE
>TOOK PART IN THIS ACTIVITY. +++++ [This point, incidentally, puts the lie
>to the *entirety* of Point 2, above...]
>
>
>In addition, instead of [Russia's former] antiquated court system -- slow,
>secret and [occasionally] unjust -- he established an open, public court
>system -- "righteous, speedy, merciful and equal for all," of the _mir_
>[village community] and circuit-court types, such as existed in other
>_gubernii_ of Russia.
>
>Emperor Alexander III reposed on 20 October 1894, and was sincerely
>lamented by his subjects.

{Excerpted and translated into English by G. Spruksts, from the Russian
text contained in _"Kratkaya Russkaya Istoriya v ocherkakh i biografiyakh"_
["A Concise History Of Russia In Sketches And Biographies"], compiled by
Konstantin Voskresenskii, Edition 28, Reprinted by Archimandrite
Panteleimon, Holy Trinity Monastery, Jordanville, NY,
1958. English-language translation copyright (c) 1985 by The Russian
Cultural Heritage Society and the Translator. All rights reserved.}

Consequently, the conclusion drawn:

>That was one of the big reasons they had a coupld of revolutions.

is obviously a _non sequitur_, for "one of the big reasons they had a
coupld {sic.} of revolutions" was because Holy Rus', "the Third Rome," the
last bastion of Orthodoxy in the world, was the only power still capable of
withstanding the encroaching masonic "New World Order." Consequently,
"they" embarked upon their mission by "unleashing the dogs of war" (World
War I) and, rephrasing it slightly, uttered Scipio Africanus' _dictum_:
_"Russia delenda est!"_ ["Russia must be destroyed!"]. And what made
Russia's destruction especially imperative was the fact that

>"... The Orthodox ... Church, preaching the Christian doctrine of God's
>Righteousness, has made [us]... aware that Orthodox ... Autocracy is the
>best possible type of government upon our imperfect earth, being an
>historically-justified form of divine authority: one established by God and
>having a Tsar' -- God's Anointed -- at its head. ...
>
>"... [And, that] to be Orthodox means to decide the question of government
>from the point of view of the Orthodox Church; that is, to consider as
>genuine only that form of government which is both responsible to God and
>God-pleasing. [Wherefore t]he Church came to love Autocracy because
>supreme authority therein belongs to that which is least corrupted in the
>sinful human nature -- one's conscience...."
>
>"...[For, being Anointed by the Church,] the Tsar' is guided ... by the
>will of God and by his conscience, as the voice of God's will. The Nation
>understands the burden of royal authority placed [upon the Tsar'] by God
>as a great service to God and His Righteousness. The supreme goal of an
>Orthodox system of government is to bring about those conditions of life
>in which the [Orthodox] Christian can grow and develop. Therefore did
>Orthodox thought come to a clear awareness of the necessity for an
>authority guided by an Orthodox world-view -- an authority subject to God:
>... Orthodox Autocratic Monarchy....
>
>"...[Hence, while] a[n Orthodox Christian] Tsar' is an unrestricted ruler,
>... his power *is* limited [nevertheless] by [his] Orthodox world-view, and he
>finds himself under the moral control of the Church and of the entire
>Nation, before both of which he had sworn his [coronation] oath. The
>principle of autocracy protects the Monarch's freedom; hence, also, the
>potential for moral responsibility, for one who is unfree cannot be capable
>of it. The unfree head of a parliamentarian ['constitutional'] monarchy
>neither is, nor can be, morally responsible for his every action which has
>both a juridical and a formal defence. Consequently, the primary moral
>force of Orthodox Christian Monarchy is lost, and the principle of
>autocratic rule falls by the wayside, making way for a "democratic state"
>that is freed from any responsibilities in regard to God, the Church, and
>the spiritual condition of the Nation [the masonic, _cum_ bolshevik,
>principle of 'separation of Church and State']....
>
>"...[Then] does 'humanitarianism,' being an expression of a human _hubris_
>which has convinced itself that it is capable of establishing social
>well-being without Christ and without love for each and every human
>individual, become a counterfeit substitute for the Righteousness of
>Christ. ["I love humankind; it's _people_ that I can't stand!"]...
>
>"...[Any] move in this direction ... [i]s never so much political, as it is
>spiritual. [And any] so-called ... 'liberation' -- and, thereafter,
>'revolutionary' movement ...[i]s particularly an _a-religious_ and
>*anti-religious* movement. It is specifically on account of this that
>[they] have evoked such great alarm in Venerable Serafim of Sarov, in Fr.
>Ioann of Kronstadt, in Dostoyevskii, in Metropolitan Antonii
>(Khrapovitsii), [and in many others]....
>
>"...an Orthodox Tsar' [on the other hand] reigns in order that there might
>exist an Orthodox-oriented milieu; that is the reason for a Tsar's bearing
>[the burden] of his royal service. When the desire for a Christian state
>and surroundings begins to fade in a nation, Orthodox Monarchy loses the
>prerequisites for its existence and its _raison d'etre_. Whence comes the
>self-evident condition for the appearance of Orthodox Monarchical rule,
>which is only then possible when a nation again begins to manifest its
>desire to live in accordance with Divine Righteousness."..

{Excerpted and translated into English by G. Spruksts, from the Russian
text of _"O Pravoslavnoi Monarkhii"_ ["Concerning Orthodox
Monarchy"]. English-language translation copyright (c) 1993 by The Russian
Cultural Heritage Society and the Translator. All rights reserved.}

>3. Despite the admonitions of St Ignaty Brianchanninov (yep, the
>Patriarchate has, as I understand it, canonized him), there seems to be a
>real need for the "suffering Russian people" (at least the ones in the
>diaspora) to get their miracles with bells

Bells have always been an integral part of Russian religious
life. Unfortunately, in Diaspora (alas!), zoning ordinances frequently
make their use impossible... {Sigh!}

>and whistles

Sorry, but very few of "the 'suffering Russian people'" -- even "the ones
in diaspora" -- are given to evoking _lyeshiye_ [wood demons] by whistling
-- especially if their _babushka_s [grannies] are still alive to teach them
what's what! It's primarily *the* _lyeshyiis_ "thynge" -- and not that of
"the 'suffering Russian people'" -- to whistle, don'cha know?...

>-- or "'streaming myrrh."

Great, let's get rid of our miracle-working ikons and then let's jettison
the relics of St. Nicholas (of Myra), St. Neilos (the Myrrh-streaming), St.
Elizaveta Feodorovna, the Royal Martyr, et al. That will subsequently make
it even easier to get rid of the "bread and wine" ("Alcoholics Anonymous"
must be appeased, after all); and, finally, we can repudiate the
"cruci-Fiction," too! Oh, yeah!...

_Bozhe, milostiv budi nam greshnym, v gresyekh nashykh, i pomilui nas!_ [O
God, be merciful to us sinners in our sins, and have mercy upon us!] For
how long, O Lord?... How long wilt Thou tolerate our sacrilege and our
blasphemies? No wonder we still pine away in exile, "strangers in a
strange land," as the Scriptures say.

>Get a life, folks.

Only make certain that the "life" in question is of the "Eternal" variety,
or it's good for nothing, being absolutely worthless...

-- GeoS

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Reply | Messages in this Topic (8)

#2110

From: LJames6034@...
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 8:11 am
Subject: Re: Consuming vodka

LJames6034@...

Uncle Cyril, were he on this list, would, as I have several times,  apologize
to Father Ambrose in New Zealand, for that Irish story.   And, I am sure,
Uncle Cyril doubtless meant that all Irishmen are poets.

Father Andrew

Reply | Messages in this Topic (7)

#2111

From: LJames6034@...
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 9:20 am
Subject: Imperial status

LJames6034@...

Suetonius, in his History of the Caesars, said of Julius Caesar (from whom
the titles Tsar and Kaiser derive) was:  "Every woman's husband, and every
man's wife."  Yet, because the mythology as vis a vis the reality of his
existence took European imagination into its embrace, so being "Caesar" came
to be terribly significant.

When Magnus Maximus was acclaimed Emperor  ("Caesar") by his troops, in the
late 4th century, that was in keeping with how most others came to power:
The army.   Marcus Aurelius, for example, more than a hundred years before
Maximus, when he had passed the title to his son, took the boy to the army's
camp, where the troops proclaimed him emperor.

Time after time, the Pretorian Guard sold the imperial title.   The saying:
"Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown" was not coined for Roman emperors,
but it might well have been.

Though French kings did not claim to be "Caesar,"  they did claim the sacred
chrism by which they were anointed came down from heaven.   And, though
someone here (derisively) spoke of His Most Catholic Majesty, Louis XIV's
statement:  "I am the state,"  as though that were not so in every autocracy,
  the very word suggests exactly that.   "Autos"  (self)  "Kratos"  (power)=
"All power invested in that one person."

Until Ivan, IV, the rulers of Russia were descendants of Rurik (whom I have
characterized as a Viking thug).   One might argue that God had chosen the
one who succeeded his fathers, by natural selection (as it were).  It was
existentially verifiable.  However, it is harder to maintain that fiction,
when one is looking at a monarch who was elected by the Boyars.

Besides all this, it was pointed out to me this morning that the anointing of
emperors in Byzantium (upon whose ceremonial the anointing of Tsars depended)
was directly related to the anointing of Baldwin Ironarm,  in 1204.   The
first anointed Byzantine emperor was Theodore Lascaris, in 1205.  This, it
was asserted, was a bit of borrowing to prevent a Western oneupsmanship.

In response, I answered what some wag said of His Brittanic Majesty, King
Charles, II (whose monarchy was so venerated a "corrective" was thought
necessary.)  The wag said:  "It must always be remembered that His Majesty
also uses the chamber pot."

When I was in England, last year at this time,  I went to Battle.   Battle
Abbey, the structure built by William the Conqueror as a penance for the
slaughter by which he became king, has a book store in it, now.   At the book
store, one of the clerks spoke of King Harold, II  (the last Orthodox king of
England) as "Our last native king.  All the rest have been foreigners,"  he
said.

All of this to the contrary notwithstanding, Prince Charles, as Pretender to
the Throne of Wales,  has, on the symbols of the alien culture to which he
belongs, the Latin inscription:  "Dieu et mon droit."  (God and My Right.)
Yet, his ancestors came to power in Wales by force of arms, and crimes
against humanity.

It all depends upon who is telling which part of what story.

#2112

From: "Nikolaj" <Pravoslavie@...>
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 2:35 pm
Subject: Holy Royal Martyrs

Pravoslavie@...

I as a Russian Orthodox Believer
demand on behalf of the Holy Royal Martyrs of Russia
that those who have so shamelessly mocked their memory
give an unreserved apology to this list.

In Christ
Nikolaj

Reply | Messages in this Topic (5)

#2113

From: TeklaI@...
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 9:41 am
Subject: Re: Consuming vodka

TeklaI@...

The point of my post was this, which you missed:

I am responsible for what I do to my own body, not someone else.

This flies in the face of post-Freudian thinking, but it is in line with New
Testament thinking. I believe that many posting here have failed to take a
look at their cultural assumptions, being immersed in them.

Elizabeth

Reply | Messages in this Topic (7)

#2114

From: Antiquariu@...
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 12:04 pm
Subject: Re: Holy Royal Martyrs

Antiquariu@...

In a message dated 4/1/00 9:35:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Pravoslavie@... writes:

<< I as a Russian Orthodox Believer
  demand on behalf of the Holy Royal Martyrs of Russia
  that those who have so shamelessly mocked their memory
  give an unreserved apology to this list.

  In Christ
  Nikolaj >>


Dear in-Christ Nikolaj -

No mocking here, but you need to be aware that Sainthood does not equal
God-hood.  The saints also have their human frailties, and that includes
Nicholas II.  I venerate the memory of Nicholas II as a martyr of the
Christian faith, not as a supernatural and perfect leader, which he was
not.Three hundred years of Romanovs and many more that of Russian culture are
what created the objective realities that led to the revolutions.  It was not
done by the anti-Christ, by foreign demons, or any other such tripe.
Russians have been superb at killing off their elites for a millenium.  One
can historically argue that there was much less of that during the Slavs
pagan days.  As far as my comemnt about Nichlas II not being able to "lead
hungry troops to a chow hall," remember that this was the autocrat who
resigned his position and led his country in some disastrous military
confrontations.  And although George Sprukts, whom I personally cherish as
one of the few enlightened intellectuals on this list, spoke out about WW I,
that's a part of history that just doesn't hold water.  The primary reason
that the Russian troops revolted in the trenches (and on board ships, for
that matter) is because it was not their war.  The very same last names who
are now part of the White Guard pantheon were the ones under attack by a
majority of Russians from 1917 to 1921 -- that's why they lost.  The
Communists won because there was a real beef with the way things were going
in Russia, Tsar or not.  Did the Communists deserve to survive?  No - and I
do not mean to sound as if I am pro-Communist; I am not.  But the picture of
happy peasants blissfully ignorant and supporting the Tsar is not close to
true either, and many of the loudest advocates of returning to such a system
would be the first ones sent to the Dal'nyj Vostok as colonoists if we ever
returned to it.  Lord, spare us from well-meaning autocrats.

In Christ,

Vova Hindrichs

Reply | Messages in this Topic (5)

#2115

From: LJames6034@...
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 2:24 pm
Subject: Re: "Well-meaning autocrats"

LJames6034@...

Some years ago, CBS-TV News did some research into the opinions of the
working class in Paris, with reference to restoring the monarchy.   Oddly
enough, more than 51 percent of the working stiffs said they would like the
monarchy restored.  They said it would give "dignity and stability."

This being written by one of the only Orthodox priests in town who has
actually been to St-Denis Abbey, to bless the reputed place of burial of King
Louis XVI and Queen Marie Antoinette.  (Mother Alexandra once told me she
thought they had had quick lime poured over them.)  So,  there is always a
place in my heart for the dear dead days beyond recall;   I used to tell my
children:  "Some day, we will restore the monarchy in France."

Louis XVI and his government paid for most of the American Revolution.   More
than 60 percent of the French government's debt, in July, 1789, was
occasioned by spending to defeat the English on these shores.

God bless King Louis.  He was apparently a good soul.   Incompetent as a
ruler, but a good soul.  I have defended his honor, and that of Queen Marie
Antoinette,  several times in various papers and magazines, because they are
much (and ignorantly) maligned.

On the 14th of July, 1789, King Louis wrote a single French word in his
diary:  "Nothing."

Ah, but whatever he meant by that was certainly not what had happened that
day.
When he finally heard about what happened, King Louis asked:   "C'est un
revolte?
(Is it a revolt?)

"Non Sire," the answer came, "c'est un revolution."

We can never get the genie back into the bottle.   Never.   Even the
ideologues among us will have to admit the truth of  that.


Father Andrew

#2116

From: "Nikolaj" <Pravoslavie@...>
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 10:03 pm
Subject: Re: Sv: Holy Royal Martyrs

Pravoslavie@...

Dear Vova

"Lord, spare us from well-meaning autocrats"

How spiritually lamentable to read the above on a supposedly "Russian Orthodox List"

It is also lamentable that even when faced with the hard factual truth about Autocracy

presented to the list by several people, that these bolshevik-masonic attitudes towards Orthodoxy expressed in this dishonouable posting below, still exists. No repentance of the mockings of the Holy Martyrs - only yet one more round of the same humanistic lies and disrespect!

I bow my head and weep in sorrow - I pray that God illumine

our hearts with the understanding of the sacrifica and the suffering of the God Annointed

Tsar Martyr Nikolaj.

Weep for those Martyred in Russia!

May their deaths not have been in vain.

Holy Tsar Martyr Nikolaj!

Pray unto God for us!

In Christ

Nikolaj

----- Original Message -----

From: Antiquariu@...

Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 7:04 PM

Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Holy Royal Martyrs

In a message dated 4/1/00 9:35:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, Pravoslavie@... writes:
<< I as a Russian Orthodox Believer demand on behalf of the Holy Royal Martyrs of Russia
that those who have so shamelessly mocked their memory
give an unreserved apology to this list.
In Christ
Nikolaj >>
Dear in-Christ Nikolaj -
No mocking here, but you need to be aware that Sainthood does not equal God-hood. The saints also have their human frailties, and that includes Nicholas II. I venerate the memory of Nicholas II as a martyr of the Christian faith, not as a supernatural and perfect leader, which he was not.Three hundred years of Romanovs and many more that of Russian culture are what created the objective realities that led to the revolutions. It was not done by the anti-Christ, by foreign demons, or any other such tripe. Russians have been superb at killing off their elites for a millenium. One can historically argue that there was much less of that during the Slavs pagan days. As far as my comemnt about Nichlas II not being able to "lead hungry troops to a chow hall," remember that this was the autocrat who resigned his position and led his country in some disastrous military confrontations. And although George Sprukts, whom I personally cherish as one of the few enlightened intellectuals on this list, spoke out about WW I, that's a part of history that just doesn't hold water. The primary reason that the Russian troops revolted in the trenches (and on board ships, for that matter) is because it was not their war. The very same last names who are now part of the White Guard pantheon were the ones under attack by a majority of Russians from 1917 to 1921 -- that's why they lost. The Communists won because there was a real beef with the way things were going in Russia, Tsar or not. Did the Communists deserve to survive? No - and I do not mean to sound as if I am pro-Communist; I am not. But the picture of happy peasants blissfully ignorant and supporting the Tsar is not close to true either, and many of the loudest advocates of returning to such a system would be the first ones sent to the Dal'nyj Vostok as colonoists if we ever returned to it. Lord, spare us from well-meaning autocrats.
In Christ,
Vova Hindrichs

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#2117

From: Antiquariu@...
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 5:14 pm
Subject: Re: Sv: Holy Royal Martyrs

Antiquariu@...

In a message dated 4/1/00 5:03:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Pravoslavie@... writes:

<< How spiritually lamentable to read the above on a supposedly "Russian
Orthodox List"

  It is also lamentable that even when faced with the hard factual truth about
Autocracy
  presented to the list by several people, that these bolshevik-masonic
attitudes towards Orthodoxy expressed in this dishonouable posting below,
still exists. No repentance of the mockings of the Holy Martyrs - only yet
one more round of the same humanistic lies and disrespect!

  I bow my head and weep in sorrow - I pray that God illumine
  our hearts with the understanding of the sacrifica and the suffering of the
God Annointed
  Tsar Martyr Nikolaj. >>


And I lament the execrable use of the English language; seriously Nikolaj,
you write like a Communist.  And besides, the Romanovs were elected, not  Dei
Gratia, by Boyars in the 17th century.  Even if there were a legitimate
connection to the foregoing dynasties, God would have annointed a pagan
Germanic spear-chucker instead of some Byzantine throwback. Or are you one of
those who supposes that Rurik was really a closet Christian?

Life, my friend, life.  The autocracy will not, God willing, ever return, but
if it does, then we must do all in our power to overthrow it -- especially if
it happens in this country.

Vova

#2118

From: "Nikolaj" <Pravoslavie@...>
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 10:23 pm
Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Holy Royal Martyrs

Pravoslavie@...

"you write like a Communist"

And above - you really expose your true sentiment of hatred against Holy Russia.

I am glad you came out of the closet!

"The autocracy will not, God willing, ever return, but
if it does, then we must do all in our power to overthrow it -- especially if
it happens in this country."

Again - thank you for clarifying your trigger-happy bolshevik belief in humanism!

In Christ

Nikolaj

PS - You at least succeeded in now making me leave this joke of a list!

I hope at least that "one down" will make you happy?

----- Original Message -----

From: Antiquariu@...

Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 12:14 AM

Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Sv: Holy Royal Martyrs

In a message dated 4/1/00 5:03:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, Pravoslavie@... writes:
<< How spiritually lamentable to read the above on a supposedly "Russian Orthodox List"
It is also lamentable that even when faced with the hard factual truth about Autocracy
presented to the list by several people, that these bolshevik-masonic attitudes towards Orthodoxy expressed in this dishonouable posting below, still exists. No repentance of the mockings of the Holy Martyrs - only yet one more round of the same humanistic lies and disrespect!
I bow my head and weep in sorrow - I pray that God illumine
our hearts with the understanding of the sacrifica and the suffering of the God Annointed
Tsar Martyr Nikolaj. >>
And I lament the execrable use of the English language; seriously Nikolaj, you write like a Communist. And besides, the Romanovs were elected, not Dei Gratia, by Boyars in the 17th century. Even if there were a legitimate connection to the foregoing dynasties, God would have annointed a pagan Germanic spear-chucker instead of some Byzantine throwback. Or are you one of those who supposes that Rurik was really a closet Christian?
Life, my friend, life. The autocracy will not, God willing, ever return, but if it does, then we must do all in our power to overthrow it -- especially if it happens in this country.
Vova

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#2119

From: "Robert Miller" <rsjmil@...>
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 10:43 pm
Subject: Monarche

rsjmil@...

Having been a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad for almost all of my twenty seven years as Orthodox, and yet never having been ontologically a Russian because my parents weren't Russian, this contretemps about Tsardom and Russian Monarchy has raised new questions in my mind:

1. Since I have lived all my Orthodox life only in a political democratic republic, can I be saved? Is voting a sin because it participates in democratic republican government?

2. Since Orthodoxy rests on the Patristic Tradition, the Councils and Canons, what is the Patristic, Conciliar and Canonical explanation or explication that only a Monarche/Monarchy can lead its people to Paradise?

3. Prior to St Constantine's declaration that Christianity would now be protected instead of persecuted, or in other words when the Emperors persecuted Christians, was Monarchy still an essential Saving principle of government?

4. However unpleasant it may be as a fact, it is nevertheless a fact that Tsar Ivan III Grozny ran a spear through his son. I think that is a fact of history. Does the fact that he was Tsar make that murder acceptable in the sight of God?

These questions just come to mind, and have nothing whatever to do with the Tsar Martyr Nikolai II.

Perhaps Vova H and one or more of his few fellow intellectuals on this List can respond. I am really trying to understand something new here which my mentors in Orthodoxy so far have failed to illuminate for me.

Joseph Miller

#2120

From: "Loren Elifrits" <Loreneli@...>
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 10:55 pm
Subject: Re: Sv: Holy Royal Martyrs

Loreneli@...

is the 'Germanic spear chucker' remark really neccesary?

Signed,

An Indignant ethnic German Orthodox Christian.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Antiquariu@...>
To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 4:14 PM
Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Sv: Holy Royal Martyrs


> In a message dated 4/1/00 5:03:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> Pravoslavie@... writes:
>
> << How spiritually lamentable to read the above on a supposedly "Russian
> Orthodox List"
>
>  It is also lamentable that even when faced with the hard factual truth
about
> Autocracy
>  presented to the list by several people, that these bolshevik-masonic
> attitudes towards Orthodoxy expressed in this dishonouable posting below,
> still exists. No repentance of the mockings of the Holy Martyrs - only yet
> one more round of the same humanistic lies and disrespect!
>
>  I bow my head and weep in sorrow - I pray that God illumine
>  our hearts with the understanding of the sacrifica and the suffering of
the
> God Annointed
>  Tsar Martyr Nikolaj. >>
>
>
> And I lament the execrable use of the English language; seriously Nikolaj,
> you write like a Communist.  And besides, the Romanovs were elected, not
Dei
> Gratia, by Boyars in the 17th century.  Even if there were a legitimate
> connection to the foregoing dynasties, God would have annointed a pagan
> Germanic spear-chucker instead of some Byzantine throwback. Or are you one
of
> those who supposes that Rurik was really a closet Christian?
>
> Life, my friend, life.  The autocracy will not, God willing, ever return,
but
> if it does, then we must do all in our power to overthrow it -- especially
if
> it happens in this country.
>
> Vova
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
>
>
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#2121

From: "Nikolaj" <Pravoslavie@...>
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 11:00 pm
Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Holy Royal Martyrs

Pravoslavie@...

"The autocracy will not, God willing, ever return, but
if it does, then we must do all in our power to overthrow it -- especially if
it happens in this country."

But it is clear from your postings that you already live in an autocracy - dear Vova!

You live in the in your own inside Autocracy of humanistic intellectualism!

The postings you make are simply a disgrace to the Russian Orthodox Church!

Not so much because you disgrace yourself, but rather because you fail to

understand the spiritual sin in dishonouring the Martyrs!

In Christ

Nikolaj

----- Original Message -----

From: Antiquariu@...

Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 12:14 AM

Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Sv: Holy Royal Martyrs

In a message dated 4/1/00 5:03:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, Pravoslavie@... writes:
<< How spiritually lamentable to read the above on a supposedly "Russian Orthodox List"
It is also lamentable that even when faced with the hard factual truth about Autocracy
presented to the list by several people, that these bolshevik-masonic attitudes towards Orthodoxy expressed in this dishonouable posting below, still exists. No repentance of the mockings of the Holy Martyrs - only yet one more round of the same humanistic lies and disrespect!
I bow my head and weep in sorrow - I pray that God illumine
our hearts with the understanding of the sacrifica and the suffering of the God Annointed
Tsar Martyr Nikolaj. >>
And I lament the execrable use of the English language; seriously Nikolaj, you write like a Communist. And besides, the Romanovs were elected, not Dei Gratia, by Boyars in the 17th century. Even if there were a legitimate connection to the foregoing dynasties, God would have annointed a pagan Germanic spear-chucker instead of some Byzantine throwback. Or are you one of those who supposes that Rurik was really a closet Christian?
Life, my friend, life. The autocracy will not, God willing, ever return, but if it does, then we must do all in our power to overthrow it -- especially if it happens in this country.
Vova

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#2122

From: Antiquariu@...
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 5:59 pm
Subject: Re: Sv: Holy Royal Martyrs

Antiquariu@...

In a message dated 4/1/00 5:57:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Loreneli@... writes:

<< is the 'Germanic spear chucker' remark really neccesary?

  Signed,

  An Indignant ethnic German Orthodox Christian.
   >>


Oh goodness, but yes!

Vova (a/k/a Werner Saemmler) Hindrichs
a not-so-indignant ethnic Northern Saxon Orthodox Christian who is more than
aware of Rurik's ancestry :-))

#2123

From: Joseph Digrande <paisiosj@...>
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 11:16 pm
Subject: Re: Consuming vodka

paisiosj@...

That is very true- that one is responsible for one's
thoughts and actions.
Likewise autocratic governments are responsible for
their policies like the support for opium trade with
China or profit and control of the vodka trade in
Russia.
That is why governmental support of abortion in this
country is seen as evil and needs to be opposed. Of
course every woman can choose but the government and
private groups who support abortion on demand as a
right are opposed for being partially responsible for
the "culture of death"
Since autorcrats have much more power than government
that is divided, the introduction, sale, distribution
of vodka in Russia by the Orthodox state was immoral
and needed to be opposed. Not opposing it weakened the
monarchy, the Church and the Orthodox family- the
backbone of society. Also someone born with fetal
alcohol syndrome or FAE is a responsible victim with
an extremely heavy cross to bear. There were many of
them in Russia as well (and there are many today).
The Romanovs and the Windsors were cousins- extremely
well educated- I wonder if the opium and vodka trade
ever came up between them on their visits with each
other.
--- TeklaI@... wrote:
>
> The point of my post was this, which you missed:
>
> I am responsible for what I do to my own body, not
> someone else.
>
> This flies in the face of post-Freudian thinking,
> but it is in line with New
> Testament thinking. I believe that many posting here
> have failed to take a
> look at their cultural assumptions, being immersed
> in them.
>
> Elizabeth
>
>
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Reply | Messages in this Topic (7)

#2124

From: "fraese" <fraese@...>
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 5:32 am
Subject: Re: heavy and sorrowful heart!

fraese@...

Please forgive me, I have been very busy and not really reading any of these posts about the Royal Martyrs, and to be honest I still don't know what most of them say. However, I just want to put in my support in favor of edifying each other. The church teaches that it is edifying to honor the martyrs, and I am very thankful for all who encourage us to keep doing that.

Theodora

----- Original Message -----

From: Rachel Peters

To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com

Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 1:55 PM

Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: heavy and sorrowful heart!

I decided to celebrate the Old World Order today and wore my pin of a portrait of the Royal Martyrs into work. I think the entire world - and not only Russians - would benefit from learning about the great loss the world sustained with the loss of the Holy Tsar and his family. It has absolutely nothing to do with Russian nationalism.
Sinner, Katina -
An American Orthodox whose Russian & Greek blood runs very thin (Great-great grandparents).
Nikolaj wrote:
Dear Friends.
I write this with an extremely heavy and sorrowful heart!
I find the postings about the Russian Tsar both extremely dishonourable and respectless towards my Patron Saint as well as to the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, who is indeed the Church of Holy Russia preserved and kept intact.
I know I am not the only one who is worried by these postings, but I am probably the only one on this list to defend the memory of the Tsar Martyr!
Then so be it !
To Those who scorn and thwart the memory of the Russian Tsar!
Know that it is a great sin to slander the dead - not least a Martyr canonized by the Orthodox Church.
Repeat your slander of the Tsar Martyr when you face God in prayer !
Do those people know anything at all about this loving Orthodox Family of the Holy Royal Martyrs?
Do those people know how heavy the burden is for an Orthodox Christian to go to war?
Can they imagine what a spiritual burden it was for Tsar Nikolaj to take upon his shoulders the responsibility of not only the whole of Russia - but also for the outcome of a war?
Then perhaps you might catch a glimpse of what evil this Martyr fought against, in the name of Holy Russia. In the name of all the nameless martyred soldiers who fell to save Paris. All this was a burden untold - upon his heart.
Do you know how The Tsar struggled inside with the knowledge of how many widows and fatherless children were left in the villages all over Russia because of this war? For the Tsar who was himself a Father.
Do you know how it felt for The Tsar to take upon himself the fate of Russia?
He did it without a falter.
To him was given a cross to cary from birth - he carried it right to the end - right to the cellar in Ekaterinburg. The Golgata of Holy Russia.
And to those out there who wants to judge this corageous and strong Orthdox Tsar, with whom God did bless Russia !
Shame on them for forgetting the 2 years of humiliating captivity.
Shame on them for not remembering in tears that cellar in Ekaterinburg!
Shame on them for not weeping over the death of Holy Russia!
Many of these anti-russian postings are a lamentable proof of the sorry spiritual state of ROCOR.
It is not strange that har trials such as the one in Jericho may befall on us. Not strange at all.
It is not only the MP who has to repent of Sergianism and a disrepectful attitude towards the Holy Royal Martyrs of Russia - the postings on this mailing list proves to mine and others great sadness that we in ROCOR also have a lot of spiritual repenting to do in this respect!
Shame to those who make fun of the dead! And especially those who make fun and slander the Martyrs of Holy Russia!
Was it not for the precious blood of these Martyrs - the Royal as well as the common
- we would not have had any Church at all !
Holy Tsar Martyr Nikolaj!
Holy Tsaritsa Martyr Alexandra!
Holy Tsesarevich Martyr Alexei!
Holy Tsarevna Martyrs Olga
Tatiana, Maria and Anastasia!
Pray unto God for us sinners!
Go to Russia and seek out an abandoned Church from before 1917.
Sit there, see the decayed walls - the ruins - and weep!!
Then God will reveal in your soul how big the sacrifice of Holy Russia was!
Yours in Christ
Nikolaj
(Named after the Tsar Martyr)
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Reply | Messages in this Topic (10)

#2125

From: "Rachael Kenoyer" <rachaelk@...>
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 11:52 pm
Subject: Re: Sv: Holy Royal Martyrs

rachaelk@...

> is the 'Germanic spear chucker' remark really neccesary?
>
> Signed,
>
> An Indignant ethnic German Orthodox Christian.

	 Uh, "Germanic" as opposed to "German".  Heavens, there IS a BIG
difference! <laugh>  But Rurik wouldn't have been chucking a
spear---shame on Vova! ;-D

	 This list (and others running this thread) are getting too surreal for
words.  Did I miss the signpost that said "Entering the Twilight Zone"?
Or just the one that said "Re-entering the 17th century"???  Maybe I
should forget how to read and write, like a proper woman! ;-)

	 Torn between laughter and horrified shock,

	 A non-bolshevik, non-masonic, non-monarchist German-American Orthodox
Christian

#2126

From: "fraese" <fraese@...>
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 5:41 am
Subject: Re: Concerning ... Rights and Duties ...

fraese@...

My husband did a lot of research on the 12 Step program about five years ago. This program is being used for everything from AA to Overeater's Anonymous, and a lot in between. It was actually one of the things that brought us to the ROCA - because we saw that there was absolutely no hope for change through the '12 Steps', and the modern Orthodox (at least here in Alberta) are all pushing 12-Step meetings in their churches. Instead of teaching the Orthodox way of life, the teachings of the fathers, the church, the sacraments, for overcoming the hold that passions have on us, they teach modern mishmash.

Theodora

----- Original Message -----

From: emrys`nz

To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com

Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 1:56 PM

Subject: [orthodox-synod] Concerning ... Rights and Duties ...

Nikolaj,

Your unfounded assertions can, and should, be questioned. I know people who have cause to be grateful to AA for returning them to a sober life style. But even if only one drunk were to recover through the AA programme, does it not put you in mind of the parable of the one lost sheep?

Fr Ambrose

===============================

----- Original Message -----

From: Nikolaj

AA does not work! AA suggests a fake god of your own imagination.

9 out of 10 who attend their first meeting never return.

out those who stay, only a very very little percentage gain recovery.

Alcoholism is a demon . neither new - nor incurable.

It is in the Scriptures how to drive out these demons.

Nikolaj

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#2127

From: LJames6034@...
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 10:12 pm
Subject: Re: Monarche

LJames6034@...

Actually, I think Ivan the Terrible was the 4th of that name.

And, furthermore,  it was ever my understanding Tsar Ivan Groszny, murdered
his son Dimitri, by hitting him in the head with a metal rod, not a spear.
Dimitri was just as dead, either way.

This, of course, led to the "False Dimitri," who raised an army and so on.

I want to publicly confess:   I vote.   It is distasteful to me, but I do it.
  It always seems to me hypocritical, but I do it!

The Romanovs came to power as Joseph says:   By election of the Boyars, not
by the Grace of God.    Doubtless, the Romanovs were descendants of St.
Valdimir, in some way.

Aren't most of us?

Father Andrew

#2128

From: LJames6034@...
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 10:18 pm
Subject: Re: Windsors and Romanovs

LJames6034@...

I suppose the German Windsors and the German Romanovs were not even aware
there was a people suffering under their rule.   Such persons are removed
from contact with ordinary people.   They literally do not inhabit the same
world.,

Remember how Queen Elizabeth, II, looked as she held hands with Tony Blair,
during the opening of that new dome in London?   It is the human touch that
monarch's miss---and need.

Father Andrew

#2129

From: LJames6034@...
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2000 10:24 pm
Subject: Re: Rurik

LJames6034@...

Rurik, as I have repeatedly said, was a Viking thug.   He came to rule
Ukraine, and his descendants ended being "Caesar".   Not too shabby a legacy.

There's nothing for Vova to be ashamed of.  He wasn't saying Rurik was a
German.   I thought he was just alluding to the ancestry of the Romanovs.
Tsar Nicholas's mother was a Dane, but a very large segment of his ancestry
was German.

That is just a fact.

ALJJ+

#2130

From: "Robert Miller" <rsjmil@...>
Date: Sun Apr 2, 2000 3:57 am
Subject: Re: Monarche

rsjmil@...

----- Original Message -----
From: <LJames6034@...>
To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 7:12 PM
Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Monarche


> Actually, I think Ivan the Terrible was the 4th of that name.

***  I was afraid I'd get the number wrong, you see, but the number of Ivans
was not the point, of course.
>
> And, furthermore,  it was ever my understanding Tsar Ivan Groszny,
murdered
> his son Dimitri, by hitting him in the head with a metal rod, not a spear.

***  Okay, but I've read some other expert than yours, and mine said he
threw a spear.  That's the trouble with historical experts.

> Dimitri was just as dead, either way.

***  It doesn't seem to matter, does it, but dear Fr Andrew nowhere in your
response do you exculpate or give absolution to Tsar Ivan III-IV, not even
because he was Tsar, and that's one of the dark corners of this brouhaha
about Tsars which I was hoping you or someone would enlighten.
>
> > I want to publicly confess:   I vote.   It is distasteful to me, but I
do it.
>  It always seems to me hypocritical, but I do it!

***  Why hypocritical?  I don't seem to me to be hypocritical when I vote,
just near to pointless.
>
> The Romanovs came to power as Joseph says:   By election of the Boyars,
not
> by the Grace of God.    Doubtless, the Romanovs were descendants of St.
> Valdimir, in some way.
>
> Aren't most of us?

*** Quite possibly you are, but my genealogy reaches back no more than three
generations, which makes me suspect something about my ancestors that
perhaps I don't want to know.
>

Joseph Mi

#2131

From: "Loren Elifrits" <Loreneli@...>
Date: Sun Apr 2, 2000 4:44 am
Subject: Re: Sv: Holy Royal Martyrs

Loreneli@...

Well, garsh! I just wanna know what's wrong with being an indignant Orthdox
German-American spear chucker anyways?


----- Original Message -----
From: Rachael Kenoyer <rachaelk@...>
To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 5:52 PM
Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Sv: Holy Royal Martyrs


>
> > is the 'Germanic spear chucker' remark really neccesary?
> >
> > Signed,
> >
> > An Indignant ethnic German Orthodox Christian.
>
> Uh, "Germanic" as opposed to "German".  Heavens, there IS a BIG
> difference! <laugh>  But Rurik wouldn't have been chucking a
> spear---shame on Vova! ;-D
>
> This list (and others running this thread) are getting too surreal for
> words.  Did I miss the signpost that said "Entering the Twilight Zone"?
> Or just the one that said "Re-entering the 17th century"???  Maybe I
> should forget how to read and write, like a proper woman! ;-)
>
> Torn between laughter and horrified shock,
>
> A non-bolshevik, non-masonic, non-monarchist German-American Orthodox
> Christian
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This mailing list's archives are at
http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Get answers for the stuff you don't. And get $10 to spend on the site!
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>
>
>

#2132

From: "Andrew" <andrew@...>
Date: Sun Apr 2, 2000 4:48 am
Subject: Flaming

andrew@...

Personally - the last place I'd expect "fidonet echo flaming" would be here on this list.

Maybe before this gets way out of hand, each of us to one another should do a full prostration and ask the other for forgiveness for being such arrogant fools.

The past should have taught each of us a lesson; not one thing will be gained by this selfish pageantry. These bouts of intellectualism serves only one purpose, and that is to invite the pointing, gestures and ridicule of the demons.

What is it that every one wishes? To speak some priceless speech or scream some irreparable insult at someone that will lie as an open wound in the side of Orthodoxy for another 100 years? Don't you believe we already have enough problems to solve than to conjure up some new ones?

Forgive me - just my opinion.

Your unworthy servant,

Andrew

#2133

From: "Nikolaj" <Pravoslavie@...>
Date: Sun Apr 2, 2000 6:34 am
Subject: Re: Sv: Consuming vodka

Pravoslavie@...

Dear Friends

Holy Russia did not fall because of Vodka!

Like Communism did not fall because of Vodka.

Like USA does not fall because of Vodka!

Holy Russia fell because she was stabbed in the

back by the heretic western powers that failed

to help her when she was injected with the

demonic Lenin, having exhausted herself

in the common struggle against Germany.

Nikolaj

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Digrande

Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 1:16 AM

Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Consuming vodka

That is very true- that one is responsible for one's
thoughts and actions.
Likewise autocratic governments are responsible for
their policies like the support for opium trade with
China or profit and control of the vodka trade in
Russia.
That is why governmental support of abortion in this
country is seen as evil and needs to be opposed. Of
course every woman can choose but the government and
private groups who support abortion on demand as a
right are opposed for being partially responsible for
the "culture of death"
Since autorcrats have much more power than government
that is divided, the introduction, sale, distribution
of vodka in Russia by the Orthodox state was immoral
and needed to be opposed. Not opposing it weakened the
monarchy, the Church and the Orthodox family- the
backbone of society. Also someone born with fetal
alcohol syndrome or FAE is a responsible victim with
an extremely heavy cross to bear. There were many of
them in Russia as well (and there are many today).
The Romanovs and the Windsors were cousins- extremely
well educated- I wonder if the opium and vodka trade
ever came up between them on their visits with each
other.
--- TeklaI@... wrote:
>
> The point of my post was this, which you missed:
>
> I am responsible for what I do to my own body, not
> someone else.
>
> This flies in the face of post-Freudian thinking,
> but it is in line with New
> Testament thinking. I believe that many posting here
> have failed to take a
> look at their cultural assumptions, being immersed
> in them.
>
> Elizabeth
>
>
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>
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#2134

From: "Nikolaj" <Pravoslavie@...>
Date: Sun Apr 2, 2000 6:50 am
Subject: Re: Sv: Windsors and Romanovs

Pravoslavie@...

Dear Fr Andrew

These pseudo-historical ramblings is a disgrace!

How come that you and others with you, are absolutely incapable of understanding that

the Tsar FORBID THE SALE OF VODKA IN 1914??

Do some serious research instead of adding to the ignorance being poured out by

anti-orthodox people on this list!

Nikolaj

----- Original Message -----

From: LJames6034@...

Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 5:18 AM

Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Windsors and Romanovs

I suppose the German Windsors and the German Romanovs were not even aware there was a people suffering under their rule. Such persons are removed from contact with ordinary people. They literally do not inhabit the same world.,
Remember how Queen Elizabeth, II, looked as she held hands with Tony Blair, during the opening of that new dome in London? It is the human touch that monarch's miss---and need.
Father Andrew

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#2135

From: intrprtr@...
Date: Sun Apr 2, 2000 7:27 am
Subject: Archbishop Averkii's View Of Monarchy

intrprtr@...

Here is yet another small contribution to the "string" on "Monarchy," a
gem gleaned from the writings of Archbishop Averkii (Taushev) of Blessed
Memory, (with several observations by others):

>The idea of Monarchy itself -- in the return to which, as the historic and
>immemorial form of [her] government, Russia may rightly see salvation --
>is sacred and precious to us not in and of itself, but only insofar as it
>is supported by our Orthodox Faith and Church -- insofar as our Tsar' is
>an "Orthodox Tsar'," as we sing in our old national anthem: insofar as he
>is -- in actual fact, and not just formally and officially -- the first
>son and the exalted Protector and Defender of the Orthodox Faith and
>Church; insofar as he is truly the "Anointed of God,"who has received
>special gifts of grace to be the "king and judge of the people of God" in
>the Mystery of Anointing, performed over him by the Church -- as he
>himself confesses in the prayer he reads before all [the people] in the
>church during his sacred coronation.  Therefore, he enters the altar
>through the Royal Doors and receives Holy Communion before the holy throne
>of God as the equal of the other sacred ministers -- which, of course,
>could not be done by any other monarch, who was not Orthodox and who did
>not respond to the demands of the Church; who was not sanctified with
>grace by the Church.
>
>As the ever-memorable St. Ioann of Kronstadt tells us:
>
>>"Who places earthly kings on their thrones?  He Who alone sits on the
>>throne of fire from eternity, and alone, in the true sense, rules over
>>all creation--heaven and earth, with all the creatures which inhabit
>>them.  From Him alone is royal power given to the kings of the earth: He
>>crowns them with the royal diadem...  *Be silent, ye dreaming
>>constitutionalists and parliamentarians!* 'Depart from me, satan!  Thou
>>art an offense unto Me, for thou savourest not the things that be of God,
>>but those that be of men' (St. Matthew 16:23), the Lord said unto Peter,
>>who denied Him.  *Depart hence, also, ye who oppose God's command.  It is
>>not *your* task to order the thrones of earthly kings.  Away with you, ye
>>audacious ones, who do not know how to govern yourselves, but are always
>>quarreling with each other...*  Authority, power, courage, and wisdom is
>>given from the Lord to the Tsar' [*alone*], in order that he might govern
>>his subjects."  (Sermon, 1907)

To this, *I* can but add a meagre observation, to the effect that:

"Constitutional" (a/k/a/ "parliamentary") monarchy is in no wise a
*genuine* Monarchy (the principle of *rule* by *one*, by a *supreme
principle*}; rather, it is a *debasement* of the very concept of Monarchy,
verging upon the abomination of "democracy" -- which even such as *Thomas
Jefferson* (no friend of Monarchs, he) deplored!  That being the case, why
even bother with the facade?  Aspartame will never be sugar, regardless of
how many "masques" it might wear!

As an example: imagine, if you will, a family in which there is one father
(the "constitutional" tsar') and two children (the "parliament"): his
proposal that the children go to school (only one "yes" vote) will be
blocked by his children (two "no" votes); if *this* serves to point out how
ludicrous is the concept of "constitutional" monarchy on such a small
scale, magnify it to the scale of a great nation, such as Russia, and see
what happens.  The Tsar' wants Russia to do such and so, but the Parliament
("Duma") wants Russia to do so and such -- *what* will Russia do?

It was the unfortunate drift toward "constitutionalism" and
"parliamentarianism" -- the betrayal of the principle of genuine Monarchy
-- which, in the final analysis, brought about the conditions that made the
manifestation of Monarchic rule essentially impossible; that brought about
Russia's collapse in 1917 and will prevent her from being re-born in the
future, unless she returns to the monarchical ideal, concerning which A. V.
Kartashev wrote:

>Rus' accepted the Byzantine notion of the *Divine* establishment of the
>State's authority.  This grandiose, universally historic schema -- or
>sacred historiosophy -- with its roots in the Bible, was viewed by
>Orthodox nations as a service within the plan for *Divine* world government.
>
>For the Greeks -- and, subsequently, for other Orthodox nation-states, as
>well -- the Orthodox Emperors ["Vasileoi"] were the heirs of the Kingdom
>of the Romaioi, passed on from the First Rome to the Second
>(Byzantium).  For them, the Emperor was the Tsar' (Caesar) of the one and
>only kingdom in the entire _vselennaya_ [oecumene], the
>*canonically-empowered* custodian of the Church, the defender of correct
>dogmatic teaching and of all piety.
>
>When Byzantium fell [to the Turks] in 1453, this event was interpreted
>as an act of God's judgment on the Second Rome, and the *mystical*
>center of the world was transferred to Moscow: the Third Rome -- and the
>last.  Thence was also born the self-awareness of the Russian Nation as
>a great _gosudarstvo_ [sovereign-realm], and the meaning of its eternal
>mission was conceived.  And the Russian realm, faithful to Orthodoxy,
>became great within, even though it had not, as yet, managed to throw off
>itself completely the yoke of the [Mongol-Tatar] Horde.
>
>And this could only be so because the Russian people realized that...
>
>...[t]he Tsar's mission is *not* identical with the mission of [any other
>earthly] rulers or wielders of authority.  The Tsar' is *not* a ruler or a
>wielder of authority.  He stands *over and above* rulers and wielders of
>authority, who are merely *his* ministers, *his* appointees, being
>responsible to him and dependent upon him.  In *contrast* to his ministers
>and other wielders of authority so endowed by him, the *Tsar'* is called
>upon to give voice to *God's* Will and to carry out *God's* laws on earth;
>he must be good and pour out his mercies upon all his subjects, in like
>manner as God pours out His mercies upon the good and the wicked. The
>Tsar's mission consists of the fact that he must be *the image of God on
>earth*, embodying merciful kindness, compassion and love for his people;
>he must be that *loving Father* in whom his every faithful subject would
>find consolation in distress, assistance, and protection from cruelty or
>from an arbitrary exercise of authority.  To demand of the Tsar' those
>qualities which must be possessed by his ministers and the wielders of
>authority empowered by him means not to comprehend the Tsar's *mission*.

   When the Russian people forgot this, the nation foundered and collapsed
-- for, as Yaroslav the Wise so astutely observed, "According to its sins,
God visits every land with famine, or with death, or with [ravages of
inclement] weather, or with some other chastisement."

Many were the reasons for Russia's destruction, but one unites them
all: the betrayal of the principle of Monarchy -- the conscious diminution
of the Monarch's rights by a violent limitation of the Tsar's Monarchical will.

>By the beginning of the reign of Emperor Alexander II, the mystic
>principle of monarchy had already been finally driven out and monarchy
>began to beviewed as merely "a form of government" -- and an antiquated
>form at that, which not only failed to conform to the more cultured level
>of development of the Russian nation, but also no longer corresponded to
>the spirit of the time....  The *full mystic power* of *God's Anointed*
>began to be identified with the monarchy of Oriental despots, demanding
>limitation by the people's will; all the harmful legislative and judicial
>reforms of Emperor Alexander II were pushed through under cover of this
>skewed viewpoint, creating a notorious "era of great reforms" that killed
>personal initiative and implanted into the thick of Russian life those
>dangerous principles of collectivism which, in its subsequent development,
>brought Russia first to *a State Duma* and then to *bol'shevism*, too.
>
>Emperor Alexander III attempted to resurrect the forgotten principles
>of Monarchy, of its *divine origin*, of its *mysticism*, and of its
>obligations; but, at the same time, he failed to abolish the pernicious
>reforms of the [18]60's, which continued to corrupt the Russian state
>system and to nurture the Russian people on a false notion of supreme
>authority and its tasks.
>
>It was the _bol'sheviki_ who did so, immediately upon seizing power; they
>destroyed all the liberal reforms of the previous five decades, including
>the State Duma, as having been instituted with the aim of *corrupting
>Russia*, and ceasing to be necessary after this goal had once been achieved.
>
>Today, Russia can only return to life fully if she refrains from toying
>with alien, "western" forms of "government" -- not "[f]ollow[ing] after
>the multitude unto evil, nor stray[ing] after the[m]..." (which brought
>her to _bol'shevism_) -- but, rather, returns to a genuinely-*Russian*
>ideology -- that of...
>
>...[t]he principle of a mighty, single, Divinely-established power [which]
>was worked out by our ancient writers, who had been brought-up in the
>spirit of Orthodoxy, who had studied Greek philosophy, and who had
>received a profoundly lofty theological education that was envied by their
>western contemporaries.  And who, aware of the necessity of monarchical
>authority, of submitting to the Monarch, and of refraining from rebellion,
>expressed our responsibility to God and to the Prince, in the teaching:
>*"Fear God; honour the Prince."*

   And to those who, in their opposition to *genuine* monarchy, frequently
cite the example of Novgorod, all I can say is that, _vis-a-vis_ the rest
of Rus', Novgorod was often in the wrong.  It was Novgorod, for example,
that hatched the abominable heresy of the _zhidovstvuyuschiye_ [Judaizers]
(the "spiritual ancestors" of the _bol'sheviki_); it was also Novgorod
that, on more than one occasion, violated its political, legal and moral
obligations, concerning which the Laurentian Chronicle states:

>The men of Novgorod are in the wrong: they have turned aside from the
>covenant which they had established with their _knyaz'_ [prince]; they
>have violated [their oath of fealty to him, by] appropriating supreme
>authority to themselves; they have behaved outrageously toward their
>princes: having shamed and robbed them, they have expelled them from out
>of their midst.

--GeoS

#2136

From: "emrys`nz" <emrys@...>
Date: Sun Apr 2, 2000 11:19 am
Subject: Re: Archbishop Averkii's View Of Monarchy

emrys@...

> "Constitutional" (a/k/a/ "parliamentary") monarchy is
> in no wise a  *genuine* Monarchy (the principle of *rule* by *one*,
> by a *supreme  principle*}; rather, it is a *debasement* of the very
> concept of Monarchy,  verging upon the abomination of "democracy" --

Steady on......

Those of us who have Her Majesty the Queen of England as our monarch and
who are politely refraining from joining in this debate take some
exception to our monarchy being gratuitously besmirched as a
*debasement.*  Is there any real need to attack our monarchy and Her
Majesty?  Please be more careful about throwing around words like
*debasement* and *abomination.*

Long Live the Queen - Freedom Wears a Crown!

Fr Ambrose

#2137

From: LJames6034@...
Date: Sun Apr 2, 2000 8:46 am
Subject: Re: Monarche

LJames6034@...

There is a famous, 19th century painting of Ivan the Terrible clutching his
dead son.  He looks not just bereaved, but absolutely demented (we are to
infer:  by reason of the grief). It is not possible for me to absolve Ivan
the Terrible for what he did.  Dead is dead.  Unless I have missed something,
that particular book is closed.

The heightened rhetoric of all this becomes tedious.  One person demanding
apologies from Americans for not being monarchists.  Another saying the one
who started (and keeps starting) this line of reasoning reasons "like a
communist."

Of course, he does.  He was educated by them.   There was created a Homo
Sovieticus.   There is an analogous situation in those of us who graduated
from Jesuit schools:   We think the way they taught us to think.

Since, as a young man, Tsar Nicholas, II, kept a mistress, shall we refer to
that ballet dancer as "the sacred mistress of the sacred monarch"?

I doubt it.    That is why, trying to remove this from something that
"matters" to an historical reference, I repeated the scoffing remark of the
wag who said of His Brittanic Majesty King Charles, II,  "It must always be
remembered that His Majesty uses the chamber pot."


Father Andrew

#2138

From: "Nikolaj" <Pravoslavie@...>
Date: Sun Apr 2, 2000 12:53 pm
Subject: No Subject

Pravoslavie@...