Dear Father John,

Thank you for your reply. You state that:

"There cannot be a church council unless the participants are already
in communion
> with, and recognize, one another"

My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that during the battle
with previous heresies at Sobors, some bishops did not "recognise"
other bishops as parts of the Church. It was then the decision of the
true Sobor, which allowed all a voice and then made a concensual
decision. The present situation appears similar.

You also state: "The "catacomb church bishops" are split into
countless groups (who could even say exactly
> how many there are, name them all, or contact them?), and they do
not recognize one
> another, or ROCOR, or the MP."

There may be several groups, but there are also synods (and I'm aware
of at least one that is well organised, who ROCA helped with their
episcopacy earlier). The fact that the catacomb Church is not "well
organised" in the wordly sense is no excuse to exclude them. The view
that you seem to be voicing is straight from the mouths of the MP -
  "there is no other Church, if it does not accept us". Regarding
contacting "them", surely in the age of email, TV etc this could be
done if the will was there.

The big hurdle that I do know exists, is that some in the Catacomb
Church still DO NOT TRUST THAT THEY WILL NOT BE PERSECUTED if they
surface. For anyone with knowledge of what happenned to parents and
grandparents, and understand the POST TRAUMATIC STRESS  that some of
our brothers and sisters in Christ are suffering from, their fear and
the fear of our Diaspora elderly is quite logical. This fear is that
the powers that be, once they can identify them as ideological
dissidents, may "deal" with them as in the past. After all we do
learn (or some do) from our experiece. And to paraphrase Christ,
there is the parable about a wise person avoiding the road on which
he was previously beaten up....(I'm more than open to anyone who can
quote same).

Your statement that: "> If they were somehow all brought together, in
all likelihood they would only argue
> endlessly and refuse to come to any agreement." is just a huge
denegrating assumption or personal first hand knowledge of these
Bishops. If its the first, it reminds me of the American view of the
Germans in "Hogans Heroes". These bishops are not the enemy, and if
we don't know them except for what we have been told by the MP (who
do see the Catacombnics as the enemy), should not we find out????
And of course bishops NEVER argued during previous Councils........

One of our clergy, and elderly and well respected presbyter, has had
ongoing contact with some of the Catacomb Church. His appraisal of
these people is that they are trully faithful to Our Saviour, and
still suffer some persecution by authorities. I trust his judgement.
I've also had some dealings with Catacombnics in Russia and the
Ukraine. Their families have been greatly traumatised by persecution
by authorities in the past. I can understand why they are circumspect.
The opinion of ROCA travellers who have met and befriended these
people is very positive.

If we are really concerned about the "healing" of the Russian Church
after its worst period in history, lets not play schoolyard clicky
favourites, lets get serious and not just get together with
the "strong". Otherwise it becomes a bit like the old camping joke:
Ivan is looking for something on the floor by the evening campfire.
Vasia asks "What are you looking for?"
Ivan - "I lost my wallet"
They look together all around the campfire.
Vasia - "Are you sure you lost it here?"
Ivan - "No. I lost it way over there by the trees"
Vasia - "So why have we been looking by the fire?"
Ivan with a smirk - "Its too dark out there to find anything.."

CANONICALLY is there anything preventing us from having a true Sobor
of all Russian Church jurisdictions to decide where to from this
point in time???

In Christ,

Alexandra

PS God does send the Dawn.


--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
<vrevjrs@...> wrote:
>
> --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "interestedplus" <asvetlov@>
wrote:
>
> > Can I ask "why?" [an All Russian Sobor... can only occur after
the
> > reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union]. Particularly
since the other "Russian"
> > Church
> > Jurisdictions should be included in a "COUNCIL", including the
> > Catacomb Church bishops.
>
> JRS: There cannot be a church council unless the participants are
already in communion
> with, and recognize, one another.
>
> The "catacomb church bishops" are split into countless groups (who
could even say exactly
> how many there are, name them all, or contact them?), and they do
not recognize one
> another, or ROCOR, or the MP.
>
> If they were somehow all brought together, in all likelihood they
would only argue
> endlessly and refuse to come to any agreement.
>
> In Christ
> Fr. John R. Shaw
>

Alexandra is correct. The Catacomb bishops should be included as should the OCA
also.

If we went out of our way to have dialogue to join the MP, why couldn't we at
the same time have begun dialogue with the Catacomb bishops and the OCA? We
didn't even make an attempt to
have dialogue with them. There is something wrong with this picture and it's not
according to
Ukaz #362.


   This type of council with only the MP/ROCOR present is typically called a
Robber Sobor.

   Michael N


----- Original Message ----
From: interestedplus <asvetlov@...>
To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2006 6:51:38 AM
Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Sobor voting;













             Dear Father Victor,



You wrote:



the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be resolved by

the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only occur after the

reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union.

In Christ,

Priest Victor Boldewskul



Can I ask "why?". Particularly since the other "Russian" Church

Jurisdictions should be included in a "COUNCIL", including the

Catacomb Church bishops. The whole current day problem is one

of "acceptance" by other churches of churches as part of the Russian

Church. This will never be resolved without a true conciliar council

of all bishops who any decisions of the council will affect. The

Arians were part of the councils. Could someone with more knowledge

of canonical procedure please answer my question. I'd be very

grateful.



In Christ,

Alexandra



--- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, frvictor@... wrote:

>

> Dear Melissa,

> The Resolution of the 4th All Diaspora Sobor was published. See:

>

http://www.russiano rthodoxchurch. ws/synod/ eng2006/5ensobre solution. htm

l

>

> The text speaks for itself. Also, in an interview with Bishop

Gabriel, His Grace also noted that the Resolution was adopted nearly

unnanimously. Note especially paragraph one which includes the

following: "... attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we

shall submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming

Council of Bishops."

>

> Also paragraph two: "We archpastors, pastors and laymen, members of

the IV All-Diaspora Council, unanimously express our resoluteness to

heal the wounds of division within the Russian Church—between her

parts in the Fatherland and abroad. Our Paschal joy is joined by the

great hope that in the appropriate time, the unity of the Russian

Church will be restored upon the foundation of the Truth of Christ,

opening for us the possibility to serve together and to commune from

one Chalice."

> Note the words "submit" and "obey" and accepting that the decisions

of the Sobor of Bishops represent God's will.

> Note the words "resoluteness to heal the wounds of division."

> According to the conciliar resolution of the 4th All Diapora Sobor,

which the bishops accepted, it has been recongnized that any decision

on the part of our bishops is concidered Divine Will. Therefore, we

can rejoice, for our bishops have determined that now is the

appropriate time for the unity of the Russian Church to be restored.

My opinion does not matter, nor does yours. All that matters is God's

will, and that we fulfill it. Your husband wrote on this list that

those who support union need to humble themselves. Every Christian

needs to humble themselves to God's Holy Will.

> I wish to also add, that this resolution on accepting the decisions

of our bishops as Divine will is what I was always taught growing up

in Rochester, especially by the current Rector who was my teacher in

Seminary, and who was the vice-president of the Sobor the day of the

voting of the Resolution.

> Finally, the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be

resolved by the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only

occur after the reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union.

> In Christ,

> Priest Victor Boldewskul

>

> ------------ -- Original message ------------ --

> From: Melissa Bushunow <cafeconlechemom@ ...>

>

> > Dear in Christ Fr. Stefan,

> >

> >

> > On Sep 29, 2006, at 4:57 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko wrote:

> >

> > > Ms. Melissa Bushunow,

> > >

> > > Where do you get this information?

> >

> > I received this information from SOBOR delegate Timothy Clader.

> > Timothy Clader was witness to Counting Committee President Fr.

Vladimir

> > Petrenko saying that he refused to sign off on the counting

committee's

> > report.

> >

> > > Show me please the statements

> > > confirming what you say.

> >

> > Please show us the scanned document from the Sobor, with Fr.

Vladimir

> > Petrenko's signature on it.

> >

> > > The "Count" is there, every member who was

> > > there physically present knows exactly what happened in their

> > > presence and you are trying to make it seem like there was some

> > > discrepancy about the actual RATIFICATION of the resolution.

Yours

> > > is an out right MISREPRESENTATION >>>BY YOU<<< of what took

place at

> > > the SOBOR, and unless you present documentation based on

factual

> > > proof, your statements are misguided at least, if not out right

> > > LIES.

> >

> > Ask Fr. Vladimir Petrenko. In lieu of that, publish the minutes,

post

> > scanned SOBOR documents.

> >

> > We have been asking for documentation from the SOBOR for weeks,

if not

> > months, and it has not been forthcoming. Where are the minutes?

> >

> > Where are the transcriptions of the questions by the delegates,

their

> > comments, and the answers to them that were to have been entered

into

> > the minutes?

> >

> > > I was there and every member who was present is a witness to

> > > the facts.

> >

> > Let all the members of ROCOR hear all the facts of SOBOR, as

documented

> > by the minutes. All we have heard and seen are the pro-union

speeches.

> >

> > > YOU ARE A DISIMINATOR OF FALSE INFORMATION. I accuse you

> > > personally, until you >>>Melissa Bushunow<<< show your sources,

of

> > > FABRICATING A LIE about the SOBOR!

> > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

> > >

> > The disseminators of false information are those who willfully

stifled

> > discussion on the MP'S sergianist, ecumenist activities at SOBOR,

and

> > those who continue to do so by not publishing the minutes.

> >

> > Melissa Bushunow

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---

> > > --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, Melissa Bushunow

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting

Committee,

> > > > > refused to> sign off on the vote, but his name was posted

> > > anyway.

> > > > > > Sound familiar? > Melissa Bushunow

> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --->

> > > > >

> > > > > This is just unfair, the whole assembly is witness to the

fact

> > > of

> > > > > the vote count and the almost unanimous out come.

> > > > >

> > > > > Father Vladimir's personal actions aside, the vote was the

vote.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is just outrageous misrepresentation!

> > > >

> > > > There have been numerous misrepresentations of what went on

at

> > > Sobor

> > > > and elsewhere. That Fr. Vladimir Petrenko refused to sign off

on

> > > the

> > > > vote count is the truth. That someone posted his name to it,

> > > despite

> > > > his refusal, to give the impression that its fairness was

> > > uncontested

> > > > -- that is the real misrepresentation.

> > > >

> > > > Melissa Bushunow

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > GOD HELP YOU FOR SUCH CALCULATED AND GROSSLY UNFAIR

POSTING.

> > > > >

> > > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

> > > > >

> > > > >

============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= =====

> > > > > -- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, Melissa Bushunow

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Since the discussion has returned to the voting question:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On Aug 8, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Finally, I would like to remind people to look at the

> > > official vote

> > > > > > > tally on the Resolution, found at:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > >

http://www.russiano rthodoxchurch. ws/synod/ eng2006/5ensobor vote.html

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Here we see that with 124 members voting, and each

paragraph

> > > > > being

> > > > > > > voted on separately, out of a total cumulative 868

votes,

> > > there

> > > > > were,

> > > > > > > cumulatively, 843 "yes" votes, 7 "no" votes, and 18

> > > abstentions.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Note carefully also who the members of the Counting

> > > Committee

> > > > > were:

> > > > > > > President--Fr. Vladimir Petrenko from the South

American

> > > > > > > Diocese, Protodeacon Andre Meillassoux (Western

European

> > > > > Diocese)

> > > > > > > and Alexander Ivanovich Mytilin ( Odessa Diocese).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It would be hard to believe that the representatives of

the

> > > > > South

> > > > > > > American and Odessa Dioceses would have been biased in

> > > favor of

> > > > > > > rapprochement. . .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Witj love in Christ,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting

Committee,

> > > > > refused to

> > > > > > sign off on the vote, but his name was posted anyway.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sound familiar?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Melissa Bushunow

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 12:42 PM, Bushunow, Peter wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Priest Victor Boldewskul writes:

> > > > > > > >On a side note, someone tried to cast a shadow over

the

> > > > > procedure of

> > > > > > > the voting. The floor that day was controlled by the V.

Rev.

> > > > > > > >Gregory Naumenko, who is the rector of Holy Protection

> > > Parish

> > > > > in

> > > > > > > Rochester NY. Those who know Fr.. Gregory personally

know

> > > that

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > very much concerned about the welfare of his flock,

some of

> > > > > whom are

> > > > > > > openly against the process of reconciliation, and have

not

> > > > > > > >issued statements of support for our bishops in this

> > > regard.

> > > > > No one

> > > > > > > would accused Fr. Gregory of being part of any plot to

push

> > > > > > > >anything through one way or the other. Likewise, the

> > > > > Resolution

> > > > > > > itself

> > > > > > > was presented by His Eminence Archbishop Hilarion.

Again,

> > > > > > > >Vladyka has an impecible reputation of fairness.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes, Fr. Victor, the voting was done incorrectly.

> > > > > > > The delegates heard speeches for three days, then

Vladika

> > > > > Agaphangel

> > > > > > > asked that the actual Act be read. Father Alexander

gave a

> > > > > > > presentation. The actual Act, a "draft" of which is now

> > > > > available on

> > > > > > > the internet, as not presented to the delegates. The

> > > delegates

> > > > > voted

> > > > > > > paragraph by paragraph on a resolution that was very

> > > carefully

> > > > > written

> > > > > > > to express well-meaning sentiment but no firm

substance. The

> > > > > voting

> > > > > > > was

> > > > > > > by affirmation -- not a closed, written vote. The

> > > resolution as

> > > > > a

> > > > > > > whole

> > > > > > > was not brought up for a vote.

> > > > > > > Father Alexander has indicated in an email, in contrast

to

> > > what

> > > > > was

> > > > > > > announced at the Council, that records of the

proceedings

> > > are

> > > > > not

> > > > > > > going

> > > > > > > to be made available for us to read. A shame.

> > > > > > > Peter

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > >

************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ***

> > > > > *

> > > > > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are

> > > confidential

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity

to

> > > whom

> > > > > they

> > > > > > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error

> > > please

> > > > > delete

> > > > > > > it from your system.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has

been

> > > > > swept for

> > > > > > > the presence of computer viruses.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thank You,

> > > > > > > Viahealth

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > >

************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ***

> > > > > *

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> >

> >

> > Archives located at http://www.egroups. com/group/ orthodox- synod

> >

> >

> > Yahoo! Groups Links

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

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> >

> >

>

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "interestedplus" <asvetlov@...> wrote:

> My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that during the battle
> with previous heresies at Sobors, some bishops did not "recognise"
> other bishops as parts of the Church. It was then the decision of the
> true Sobor, which allowed all a voice and then made a concensual
> decision. The present situation appears similar.

JRS: There were different parties in the Church, but there were no Sobors
involving bishops
who did not belong to the same Church.

> The fact that the catacomb Church is not "well
> organised" in the wordly sense is no excuse to exclude them. The view
> that you seem to be voicing is straight from the mouths of the MP -
>  "there is no other Church, if it does not accept us". Regarding
> contacting "them", surely in the age of email, TV etc this could be
> done if the will was there.

JRS: There is no one "Catacomb Church", and there never was. There are various
"catacomb
churches", and ROCOR has long ago determined that those who continue to call
themselves such are without any canonical basis.

The "Lazarites" are not a catacomb church, at least not anymore: they are a
group that was
part of ROCOR and first joined ROCiE, then broke away and are now on their own.

> The big hurdle that I do know exists, is that some in the Catacomb
> Church still DO NOT TRUST THAT THEY WILL NOT BE PERSECUTED if they
> surface.

JRS: You first wrote that they could easily be contacted, and here you say that
they "have
not yet surfaced".

It can't be both ways: if they can be contacted, that means they have indeed
"surfaced",
and merely call themselves catacomb churches.

> CANONICALLY is there anything preventing us from having a true Sobor
> of all Russian Church jurisdictions to decide where to from this
> point in time???

JRS: Canonically, a "true Sobor" would not put uncanonical groups on the same
level as
those that have a canonical basis.

Besides, that, the Old Believers are many times more numerous than the various
"catacomb churches", and have up to two million members today. Most of them
belong to
the Bielokrinitsa Synod, headed by Metropolitan Cornelius.

The Old Believers have been separate for over 300 years, but still consider
themselves
"part of the Russian Church" (in the words of their late Metropolitan Andrian
who reposed
last year).

Metropolitan Andrian also called for "reconciliation in the Russian Church".

As for the so-called "catacomb churches", most of them are not even interested
in
"reconciliation".

The reason is often that they are minuscule, and want to remain independant.

In Christ
Fr. John R. Shaw

SYNOD OF BISHOPS: October 5, 2006
Statement by Bishop Gabriel of Manhattan
   It was with profound spiritual revulsion that I read the item on the
Russian-language website “Portal-Credo,” where the following “blessing” is
ascribed to me:
       “At the conclusion of the meeting [that is, my archpastoral meeting with
the Parish of Blessed Xenia in Ottawa—Bp. Gabriel], Archbishop Gabriel blessed
the faithful [to make] all actions of protest, except violent ones, and even
assured them that he would support the efforts of the protesters.”

   All this “information” is a shameless provocation, lies from beginning to end,
beginning with my so-called rank of “archbishop.” The organizers of this
provocation as well as the sources exploited by “Portal” are well known to me.

   I regret that I did not heed the advice of individuals close to me who
recommended that I refrain from any contact with “Portal-Credo,” which is a
Russophobic and anti-ecclesiastical publication sowing hatred towards the entire
Russian Orthodox Church, both in the Fatherland and Abroad.

   For the uninformed, I can only repeat that together with all Russian Orthodox
people, I desire Church unity. Arguments, at times heated, on this matter stem
only from the choice of the best path towards such unity.

   Gabriel, Bishop of Manhattan,
Secretary of the Synod of Bishops of ROCOR
New York, September 21/October 4, 2006

  __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ROCA, as I understand it, means Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

Open repentance was the way of the early Church, and in extraordinary
circumstances, such as the iconoclasm. For example, Patriarch Paul
stepped down from his patriarchy as repentance for his involvement
with iconoclasm during a Church council.

Also, is there precedent for a regime that has murdered and imprisoned
hundreds of millions of its own people as the USSR had done?

Reason dictates that the a regime so thoroughly evil as to
systematically murder and imprison millions on millions of the people
of God, and anyone who came to and ascended in religious offices under
that regime's control, should do active and open repentance.

What does that mean?  It does not necessarily mean detailed
confessions to the public at large, but public action in repentance.
A person who climbed the ladder within the MP in Soviet times as
Patriarch Alexei II and his colleagues did, had to collaborate with
the Soviet regime to be promoted.  There was a quid pro quo to keep
power, suggesting a passion for power-seeking in such persons who were
ordained and promoted under Soviet rule.

Should the penance for sins of power-seeking and keeping be at least
the relinquishment of that abused power? Or is the penance for a
kleptomaniac, for example, to remain in their bank teller positions?

I hope you see the main point that repentance is action counter to not
just the sin, but to the passions underlying them, or so I understand it.

Michael


--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "poolsineyes" <poolsineyes@...>
wrote:
>
> Can someone in the know please take a moment to answer my question
> regarding open repentance?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Amber Franklin
>
> --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "poolsineyes" <poolsineyes@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Can someone please tell me what is meant when someone writes ROCA?
> >
> > Also, many posters keep calling for open repentance of Soviet
> > dealings...is this precedented?  Is it 'normal' for bishops or anyone
> > else for that matter to repent of something outside of the counsel of
> > one's spiritual fater?
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
>

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
Dear George,
I sat on your reply for a couple of days so I could
think about what you wrote.
Here is my reply. If you are accustomed to the "proper
ways" of doing things at Church (and I am) then that
is fine, but for folks who come to enqire, it is quite
a different story.  I have found the Church and I CAN
live with all of that, but newcomers come, look , and
LEAVE. If you like that it's fine. How do you know
exactly how God wants you to dress and what if you
idea of "correct" is different from others. By the
way, I've never been to Russia, but I have seen hours
of Church worship in Russia and I didn't see a lot of
"dressing up". Maybe you know more than I do.
There's nothing disrespectful about actually enjoying
Liturgy.
I beg your pardon, but the Church that we are going to
DOES celebrate the Feasts,and the Fasts and Holydays
and Vespers. And they are not hung up on clothing.
As far as the old calendar not working, you are right.
It is hard to find 20 people north of BayCity, Mi who
have even heard of the old calendar. Let alone use it.
The new calendar never should have gotten started but
here it is.
It has NOTHING to do with a problem of "anyone"
staring at us it has to do with celebrating days with
our families and friends. If you like the Old Calendar
fine, but I tried it and it dosen't fit for me.
The Church has done everything for me and I try to do
all that I can for the church.
I just do the best that I can.
Love in Christ,
Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

--- George Edward Green III <kharaku@...> wrote:

> Larry Writes:
> GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
> Dear George,
> It has Nothing to do with ethnic traditions, because
> actually I love Russian tradition. What it has to do
> with is "tone" or attitude. The Russian churches
> seem
> to be pre-occupied with "form". Is this done "right"
> do you dress in a "proper" way. Are you doing all
> the
> "right" things, etc. If a kid comes into Church in a
> pair of jeans, especially a girl "O My Gosh, the sky
> will fall". And apparently to Russians, God has no
> sense of humour.
>
> I respond:
> I do not see how showing a disrespect for God is
> humorous, nor do I see how expecting folks to show a
> basic respect for God during Liturgy is an
> 'obsession with form'.  Folks should dress up as it
> shows respect for God and for the Liturgy.  I don't
> see a down side to reminding folks of God's
> commandments in 1st Corinthians at the door either.
>
> Larry Writes:
> The Church we are "migrating" to has
> very little of that. The folks dress casually, but
> the
> whole congregation is enthusiastic in the responses
> during the liturgy.
>
> I respond:
> The last time I heard rhetoric like this it was in
> regard to an athnusiasm which apparently only
> manifests itself on Sundays, as the church in
> question was unconcerned with observing feast days,
> or vespers.
>
> Larry Writes:
> They have things for kids to do
> and it is a much more relaxed atmosphere. They do a
> few things I don't really care for, but hey,
> nothings
> going to be perfect. Also, my family has always used
> the "new calendar", and for us the old calendar
> dosen't work.
>
> I respond:
> I'm always skeptical of folks who say the calendar
> doesn't 'work' for them.  Christians observing the
> Feast days should 'work' for the Church, not the
> other way around.  That said I at least hope the
> church you're migrating to enthusastically
> celebrates the New Calendar feast days.
>
> As for kids I can think of a lot of things they need
> in any sort of educational setting.  A solid
> education, engaging content, a reliable teacher, a
> degree of dicipline to keep classes focused and
> useful; a 'relaxed atmosphere' not being one of
> them, and children need to be educated about the
> church.  There's a time and place for fun and games,
> but the liturgy is not that place.
>
> Larry writes:
> All of our other Orthodox friends are
> always 13 days ahead of us, not just Christmas, but
> everyother feast day. In Michigan there are only a
> hand full of Orthodox Churches on old calendar. I
> know
> this sounds terrible and awful, but I like to LOVE
> God
> and His Church, not TREMBLE AND FEAR it. That's why
> I'm going to the Antiochain Church, it is more like
> the "old country", MY old country.
> Love in Christ,
> Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
>
> I respond:
> This should at least be more about how you use your
> calendar, not when.  If you're only reason for
> prefering the new calender is not having protestants
> and Catholics gawk on Christmas that's pretty
> shallow.
>
> Larry writes:
> PS. At St. Marys Church, it is almost all "natives"
> aka Americans and they actually invite not yet
> Orthodox kids to their outings.
> Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
>
> I respond:
> This seems like an implication that the 'ethnic'
> churches are
> anti-bringing-non-orthodox-to-the-faith.
> Personally, and I wasn't even baptised into the
> church until I was in my 20s, whenever my
> non-Orthodox freinds make a confused face at why I'm
> celebrating Easter or Christmas late, I take the
> chance to tell them to stop by and see the Orthodox
> church and see whether they might be interested to
> learn more.  I think it's a lot more important that
> non-orthodox are invited to consider Orthodoxy than
> to have a full soccer team at a church sponsored
> picnic.
>
> All in all your response seems to have a lot more
> 'what can the church do for ME on this Earth' and
> too little 'what can I do for the church which isn't
> of this earth'.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

What is a "sub-deacon"?

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: larry most
   To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 9:36 PM
   Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: How many have been to Russia?


   GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
   Dear George,
   I sat on your reply for a couple of days so I could
   think about what you wrote.
   Here is my reply. If you are accustomed to the "proper
   ways" of doing things at Church (and I am) then that
   is fine, but for folks who come to enqire, it is quite
   a different story. I have found the Church and I CAN
   live with all of that, but newcomers come, look , and
   LEAVE. If you like that it's fine. How do you know
   exactly how God wants you to dress and what if you
   idea of "correct" is different from others. By the
   way, I've never been to Russia, but I have seen hours
   of Church worship in Russia and I didn't see a lot of
   "dressing up". Maybe you know more than I do.
   There's nothing disrespectful about actually enjoying
   Liturgy.
   I beg your pardon, but the Church that we are going to
   DOES celebrate the Feasts,and the Fasts and Holydays
   and Vespers. And they are not hung up on clothing.
   As far as the old calendar not working, you are right.
   It is hard to find 20 people north of BayCity, Mi who
   have even heard of the old calendar. Let alone use it.
   The new calendar never should have gotten started but
   here it is.
   It has NOTHING to do with a problem of "anyone"
   staring at us it has to do with celebrating days with
   our families and friends. If you like the Old Calendar
   fine, but I tried it and it dosen't fit for me.
   The Church has done everything for me and I try to do
   all that I can for the church.
   I just do the best that I can.
   Love in Christ,
   Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

   --- George Edward Green III <kharaku@...> wrote:

   > Larry Writes:
   > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
   > Dear George,
   > It has Nothing to do with ethnic traditions, because
   > actually I love Russian tradition. What it has to do
   > with is "tone" or attitude. The Russian churches
   > seem
   > to be pre-occupied with "form". Is this done "right"
   > do you dress in a "proper" way. Are you doing all
   > the
   > "right" things, etc. If a kid comes into Church in a
   > pair of jeans, especially a girl "O My Gosh, the sky
   > will fall". And apparently to Russians, God has no
   > sense of humour.
   >
   > I respond:
   > I do not see how showing a disrespect for God is
   > humorous, nor do I see how expecting folks to show a
   > basic respect for God during Liturgy is an
   > 'obsession with form'. Folks should dress up as it
   > shows respect for God and for the Liturgy. I don't
   > see a down side to reminding folks of God's
   > commandments in 1st Corinthians at the door either.
   >
   > Larry Writes:
   > The Church we are "migrating" to has
   > very little of that. The folks dress casually, but
   > the
   > whole congregation is enthusiastic in the responses
   > during the liturgy.
   >
   > I respond:
   > The last time I heard rhetoric like this it was in
   > regard to an athnusiasm which apparently only
   > manifests itself on Sundays, as the church in
   > question was unconcerned with observing feast days,
   > or vespers.
   >
   > Larry Writes:
   > They have things for kids to do
   > and it is a much more relaxed atmosphere. They do a
   > few things I don't really care for, but hey,
   > nothings
   > going to be perfect. Also, my family has always used
   > the "new calendar", and for us the old calendar
   > dosen't work.
   >
   > I respond:
   > I'm always skeptical of folks who say the calendar
   > doesn't 'work' for them. Christians observing the
   > Feast days should 'work' for the Church, not the
   > other way around. That said I at least hope the
   > church you're migrating to enthusastically
   > celebrates the New Calendar feast days.
   >
   > As for kids I can think of a lot of things they need
   > in any sort of educational setting. A solid
   > education, engaging content, a reliable teacher, a
   > degree of dicipline to keep classes focused and
   > useful; a 'relaxed atmosphere' not being one of
   > them, and children need to be educated about the
   > church. There's a time and place for fun and games,
   > but the liturgy is not that place.
   >
   > Larry writes:
   > All of our other Orthodox friends are
   > always 13 days ahead of us, not just Christmas, but
   > everyother feast day. In Michigan there are only a
   > hand full of Orthodox Churches on old calendar. I
   > know
   > this sounds terrible and awful, but I like to LOVE
   > God
   > and His Church, not TREMBLE AND FEAR it. That's why
   > I'm going to the Antiochain Church, it is more like
   > the "old country", MY old country.
   > Love in Christ,
   > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
   >
   > I respond:
   > This should at least be more about how you use your
   > calendar, not when. If you're only reason for
   > prefering the new calender is not having protestants
   > and Catholics gawk on Christmas that's pretty
   > shallow.
   >
   > Larry writes:
   > PS. At St. Marys Church, it is almost all "natives"
   > aka Americans and they actually invite not yet
   > Orthodox kids to their outings.
   > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
   >
   > I respond:
   > This seems like an implication that the 'ethnic'
   > churches are
   > anti-bringing-non-orthodox-to-the-faith.
   > Personally, and I wasn't even baptised into the
   > church until I was in my 20s, whenever my
   > non-Orthodox freinds make a confused face at why I'm
   > celebrating Easter or Christmas late, I take the
   > chance to tell them to stop by and see the Orthodox
   > church and see whether they might be interested to
   > learn more. I think it's a lot more important that
   > non-orthodox are invited to consider Orthodoxy than
   > to have a full soccer team at a church sponsored
   > picnic.
   >
   > All in all your response seems to have a lot more
   > 'what can the church do for ME on this Earth' and
   > too little 'what can I do for the church which isn't
   > of this earth'.
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been
   > removed]
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >

   __________________________________________________
   Do You Yahoo!?
   Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
   http://mail.yahoo.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@...>
wrote:

> Also, is there precedent for a regime that has murdered and imprisoned
> hundreds of millions of its own people as the USSR had done?

> Reason dictates that the a regime so thoroughly evil as to
> systematically murder and imprison millions on millions of the people
> of God, and anyone who came to and ascended in religious offices under
> that regime's control, should do active and open repentance.

JRS: The flaw in that reasoning should be obvious.

First, the evil regime lasted from 1917 till 1991 (although the situation of the
Church had
become easier after 1985, under Gorbachev).

The evil regime ruled the largest country in the world, and its pressure was
felt everywhere
in that country.

Consequently, if someone was born or grew up in the Soviet Union, and wanted to
serve
the Church, there was no choice of "what regime to serve under". They could only
live and
function in the country they were born in.

To demand "active and open repentance" for that, is absurd.

> What does that mean?  It does not necessarily mean detailed
> confessions to the public at large, but public action in repentance.
> A person who climbed the ladder within the MP in Soviet times as
> Patriarch Alexei II and his colleagues did, had to collaborate with
> the Soviet regime to be promoted.  There was a quid pro quo to keep
> power, suggesting a passion for power-seeking in such persons who were
> ordained and promoted under Soviet rule.

JRS: Hardly. The Church cannot function without clergy, and there must be
bishops in the
Orthodox Church. To say that anyone who inherited a throne did so out of "a
passion for
power-seeking" is not warranted.

But what of those who were bishops in the Russian Empire? They could not be
consecrated
without the Tsar's approval. Does that mean they were "power-seekers"?

> Should the penance for sins of power-seeking and keeping be at least
> the relinquishment of that abused power? Or is the penance for a
> kleptomaniac, for example, to remain in their bank teller positions?

JRS: More nonsense.

More than half (i.e. most) of the bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate have been
consecrated since the fall of communism in Russia.

Of those who remain from before that time, a good number have been quietly
retired (or
not so quietly, in the case of Philaret of Kiev).

But there are over 150 bishops in the Russian Orthodox Church, and if they were
all to
step down, who would take their places?

The Church Abroad is very short of bishops and candidates today; and anyone in
Russia
who was born after the fall of communism, would be 15 years old or less.

> I hope you see the main point that repentance is action counter to not
> just the sin, but to the passions underlying them, or so I understand it.

JRS: In all of these comments, you have overlooked the fact that Patriarch Alexy
II did ask
public forgiveness for all the actions of the Moscow Patriarchate, back in 1991,
and that
the decisions of the Moscow Sobor of 2000 are accepted by our hierarchy as a
satisfactory
rejection of Sergianism.

In Christ
Fr. John R. Shaw

Dear fr. Victor where does it say that after the  Eucharist that  the All Russia
Sobor will occur - it is not logical -  sadly for  the delegates  in SF that if 
business or ortherwise must be  pressured this is not true - I know the names
... I have returned to  the public service in Australia... KGB agents whether in
post soviet  union or otherwise... remember this please that.. many millions of
our  brothers & sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ were butchered by  izvergi such
as Lenin, Stalin & indirectly sadly.... by those who  supported the Soviet state
such as metr Sergious & others...

   Unworthy as I am  I ask the Lord to fogive them but the TRUTH cannot be white
washed by any SOBOR in SF or otherwise....

   Basil from Canberra

interestedplus <asvetlov@...> wrote:
Dear Father Victor,

   You wrote:

   the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be resolved by
   the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only occur after the
   reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union.
   In Christ,
   Priest Victor Boldewskul

   Can I ask "why?". Particularly since the other "Russian" Church
   Jurisdictions should be included in a "COUNCIL", including the
   Catacomb Church bishops. The whole current day problem is one
   of "acceptance" by other churches of churches as part of the Russian
   Church. This will never be resolved without a true conciliar council
   of all bishops who any decisions of the council will affect. The
   Arians were part of the councils. Could someone with more knowledge
   of canonical procedure please answer my question. I'd be very
   grateful.

   In Christ,
   Alexandra

   --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvictor@... wrote:
   >
   > Dear Melissa,
   > The Resolution of the 4th All Diaspora Sobor was published. See:
   >
   http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/5ensobresolution.htm
   l
   >
   > The text speaks for itself. Also, in an interview with Bishop
   Gabriel, His Grace also noted that the Resolution was adopted nearly
   unnanimously. Note especially paragraph one which includes the
   following: "... attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we
   shall submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming
   Council of Bishops."
   >
   > Also paragraph two: "We archpastors, pastors and laymen, members of
   the IV All-Diaspora Council, unanimously express our resoluteness to
   heal the wounds of division within the Russian Church—between her
   parts in the Fatherland and abroad. Our Paschal joy is joined by the
   great hope that in the appropriate time, the unity of the Russian
   Church will be restored upon the foundation of the Truth of Christ,
   opening for us the possibility to serve together and to commune from
   one Chalice."
   > Note the words "submit" and "obey" and accepting that the decisions
   of the Sobor of Bishops represent God's will.
   > Note the words "resoluteness to heal the wounds of division."
   > According to the conciliar resolution of the 4th All Diapora Sobor,
   which the bishops accepted, it has been recongnized that any decision
   on the part of our bishops is concidered Divine Will. Therefore, we
   can rejoice, for our bishops have determined that now is the
   appropriate time for the unity of the Russian Church to be restored.
   My opinion does not matter, nor does yours. All that matters is God's
   will, and that we fulfill it. Your husband wrote on this list that
   those who support union need to humble themselves. Every Christian
   needs to humble themselves to God's Holy Will.
   > I wish to also add, that this resolution on accepting the decisions
   of our bishops as Divine will is what I was always taught growing up
   in Rochester, especially by the current Rector who was my teacher in
   Seminary, and who was the vice-president of the Sobor the day of the
   voting of the Resolution.
   > Finally, the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be
   resolved by the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only
   occur after the reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union.
   > In Christ,
   > Priest Victor Boldewskul
   >
   > -------------- Original message --------------
   > From: Melissa Bushunow <cafeconlechemom@...>
   >
   > > Dear in Christ Fr. Stefan,
   > >
   > >
   > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 4:57 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko wrote:
   > >
   > > > Ms. Melissa Bushunow,
   > > >
   > > > Where do you get this information?
   > >
   > > I received this information from SOBOR delegate Timothy Clader.
   > > Timothy Clader was witness to Counting Committee President Fr.
   Vladimir
   > > Petrenko saying that he refused to sign off on the counting
   committee's
   > > report.
   > >
   > > > Show me please the statements
   > > > confirming what you say.
   > >
   > > Please show us the scanned document from the Sobor, with Fr.
   Vladimir
   > > Petrenko's signature on it.
   > >
   > > > The "Count" is there, every member who was
   > > > there physically present knows exactly what happened in their
   > > > presence and you are trying to make it seem like there was some
   > > > discrepancy about the actual RATIFICATION of the resolution.
   Yours
   > > > is an out right MISREPRESENTATION >>>BY YOU<<< of what took
   place at
   > > > the SOBOR, and unless you present documentation based on
   factual
   > > > proof, your statements are misguided at least, if not out right
   > > > LIES.
   > >
   > > Ask Fr. Vladimir Petrenko. In lieu of that, publish the minutes,
   post
   > > scanned SOBOR documents.
   > >
   > > We have been asking for documentation from the SOBOR for weeks,
   if not
   > > months, and it has not been forthcoming. Where are the minutes?
   > >
   > > Where are the transcriptions of the questions by the delegates,
   their
   > > comments, and the answers to them that were to have been entered
   into
   > > the minutes?
   > >
   > > > I was there and every member who was present is a witness to
   > > > the facts.
   > >
   > > Let all the members of ROCOR hear all the facts of SOBOR, as
   documented
   > > by the minutes. All we have heard and seen are the pro-union
   speeches.
   > >
   > > > YOU ARE A DISIMINATOR OF FALSE INFORMATION. I accuse you
   > > > personally, until you >>>Melissa Bushunow<<< show your sources,
   of
   > > > FABRICATING A LIE about the SOBOR!
   > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
   > > >
   > > The disseminators of false information are those who willfully
   stifled
   > > discussion on the MP'S sergianist, ecumenist activities at SOBOR,
   and
   > > those who continue to do so by not publishing the minutes.
   > >
   > > Melissa Bushunow
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > > ---------------------------------------------------
   > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow
   > > > wrote:
   > > > >
   > > > >
   > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
   wrote:
   > > > >
   > > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting
   Committee,
   > > > > > refused to> sign off on the vote, but his name was posted
   > > > anyway.
   > > > > > > Sound familiar? > Melissa Bushunow
   > > > > > --------------------------------------------------->
   > > > > >
   > > > > > This is just unfair, the whole assembly is witness to the
   fact
   > > > of
   > > > > > the vote count and the almost unanimous out come.
   > > > > >
   > > > > > Father Vladimir's personal actions aside, the vote was the
   vote.
   > > > > >
   > > > > > This is just outrageous misrepresentation!
   > > > >
   > > > > There have been numerous misrepresentations of what went on
   at
   > > > Sobor
   > > > > and elsewhere. That Fr. Vladimir Petrenko refused to sign off
   on
   > > > the
   > > > > vote count is the truth. That someone posted his name to it,
   > > > despite
   > > > > his refusal, to give the impression that its fairness was
   > > > uncontested
   > > > > -- that is the real misrepresentation.
   > > > >
   > > > > Melissa Bushunow
   > > > >
   > > > >
   > > > > > GOD HELP YOU FOR SUCH CALCULATED AND GROSSLY UNFAIR
   POSTING.
   > > > > >
   > > > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
   > > > > >
   > > > > >
   ==============================================================
   > > > > > -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow
   > > > > > wrote:
   > > > > > >
   > > > > > > Since the discussion has returned to the voting question:
   > > > > > >
   > > > > > > On Aug 8, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:
   > > > > > >
   > > > > > > Finally, I would like to remind people to look at the
   > > > official vote
   > > > > > > > tally on the Resolution, found at:
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > >
   > > >
   http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/5ensoborvote.html
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > > > Here we see that with 124 members voting, and each
   paragraph
   > > > > > being
   > > > > > > > voted on separately, out of a total cumulative 868
   votes,
   > > > there
   > > > > > were,
   > > > > > > > cumulatively, 843 "yes" votes, 7 "no" votes, and 18
   > > > abstentions.
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > > > Note carefully also who the members of the Counting
   > > > Committee
   > > > > > were:
   > > > > > > > President--Fr. Vladimir Petrenko from the South
   American
   > > > > > > > Diocese, Protodeacon Andre Meillassoux (Western
   European
   > > > > > Diocese)
   > > > > > > > and Alexander Ivanovich Mytilin ( Odessa Diocese).
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > > > It would be hard to believe that the representatives of
   the
   > > > > > South
   > > > > > > > American and Odessa Dioceses would have been biased in
   > > > favor of
   > > > > > > > rapprochement. . .
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > > > Witj love in Christ,
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > >
   > > > > > >
   > > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting
   Committee,
   > > > > > refused to
   > > > > > > sign off on the vote, but his name was posted anyway.
   > > > > > >
   > > > > > > Sound familiar?
   > > > > > >
   > > > > > > Melissa Bushunow
   > > > > > >
   > > > > > >
   > > > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 12:42 PM, Bushunow, Peter wrote:
   > > > > > >
   > > > > > > > Priest Victor Boldewskul writes:
   > > > > > > > >On a side note, someone tried to cast a shadow over
   the
   > > > > > procedure of
   > > > > > > > the voting. The floor that day was controlled by the V.
   Rev.
   > > > > > > > >Gregory Naumenko, who is the rector of Holy Protection
   > > > Parish
   > > > > > in
   > > > > > > > Rochester NY. Those who know Fr.. Gregory personally
   know
   > > > that
   > > > > > > is
   > > > > > > > very much concerned about the welfare of his flock,
   some of
   > > > > > whom are
   > > > > > > > openly against the process of reconciliation, and have
   not
   > > > > > > > >issued statements of support for our bishops in this
   > > > regard.
   > > > > > No one
   > > > > > > > would accused Fr. Gregory of being part of any plot to
   push
   > > > > > > > >anything through one way or the other. Likewise, the
   > > > > > Resolution
   > > > > > > > itself
   > > > > > > > was presented by His Eminence Archbishop Hilarion.
   Again,
   > > > > > > > >Vladyka has an impecible reputation of fairness.
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > > > Yes, Fr. Victor, the voting was done incorrectly.
   > > > > > > > The delegates heard speeches for three days, then
   Vladika
   > > > > > Agaphangel
   > > > > > > > asked that the actual Act be read. Father Alexander
   gave a
   > > > > > > > presentation. The actual Act, a "draft" of which is now
   > > > > > available on
   > > > > > > > the internet, as not presented to the delegates. The
   > > > delegates
   > > > > > voted
   > > > > > > > paragraph by paragraph on a resolution that was very
   > > > carefully
   > > > > > written
   > > > > > > > to express well-meaning sentiment but no firm
   substance. The
   > > > > > voting
   > > > > > > > was
   > > > > > > > by affirmation -- not a closed, written vote. The
   > > > resolution as
   > > > > > a
   > > > > > > > whole
   > > > > > > > was not brought up for a vote.
   > > > > > > > Father Alexander has indicated in an email, in contrast
   to
   > > > what
   > > > > > was
   > > > > > > > announced at the Council, that records of the
   proceedings
   > > > are
   > > > > > not
   > > > > > > > going
   > > > > > > > to be made available for us to read. A shame.
   > > > > > > > Peter
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > >
   > > >
   *********************************************************************
   > > > > > *
   > > > > > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are
   > > > confidential
   > > > > > and
   > > > > > > > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity
   to
   > > > whom
   > > > > > they
   > > > > > > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error
   > > > please
   > > > > > delete
   > > > > > > > it from your system.
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has
   been
   > > > > > swept for
   > > > > > > > the presence of computer viruses.
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > > > Thank You,
   > > > > > > > Viahealth
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > >
   > > >
   *********************************************************************
   > > > > > *
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   > > > > > > >
   > > > > > > >
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   > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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   > > > >
   > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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   > >
   > >
   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
   > >
   > >
   > > Yahoo! Groups Links
   > >
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   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Subdeacon

A subdeacon (or sub-deacon) is the highest of the minor orders of clergy in the
Church. This order is higher than the reader and lower than the deacon.

The subdeacon's essential role is to assist the bishop during a hierarchical
Divine Liturgy (a Divine Liturgy at which a bishop is present and presiding) by
vesting him, holding his service book, carrying his staff, presenting him with
the dikiri and trikiri, etc.
There is a special service for the ordination of a subdeacon, although in
contemporary practice an acolyte or a reader may receive the bishop's blessing
to vest and act as a subdeacon, either for a particular occasion or permanently.
The main reason for this practice lies in the fact that the canons (e.g.,
Apostolic canon 26 et al.) prohibit subdeacons to marry after their ordination
(just like deacons and priests). This latter stipulation has sometimes led to
the reservation of the formal ordination service to candidates for the
priesthood, although this is not universal.

Although the canons stipulate the subdeacons may not marry after their
ordination to the subdiaconate, in modern practice, some churches allow them to
marry. (As with many canons, the way this one is applied varies.)
The subdeacon is vested in a sticharion with an orarion tied around his waist,
up over his shoulders (forming an X-shaped cross in back), and with the ends
hanging down in front, tucked under the section around the waist. Like readers,
subdeacons are permitted to wear a cassock, although many only do so when
attending services.
When there is no bishop present, a subdeacon will take the role of acolyte,
assisting the priest during religious services in the altar.

On Friday, October 06, 2006, at 08:29AM, rdsieckmann <diane59@...>
wrote:

>
><<Original Attached>>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Larry Writes:
GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
Dear George,
I sat on your reply for a couple of days so I could
think about what you wrote.
Here is my reply. If you are accustomed to the "proper
ways" of doing things at Church (and I am) then that
is fine, but for folks who come to enqire, it is quite
a different story.

I respond:
I think it can be a problem for new comers though I suspect we disagree on what
that means.  That said the first Orthodox church I went to, and was baptised
into was fairly liberal on such things.  They were also new calendar, had pews
etc.  Great church, and great folks there too.

Larry continues:
I have found the Church and I CAN
live with all of that, but newcomers come, look , and
LEAVE. If you like that it's fine. How do you know
exactly how God wants you to dress and what if you
idea of "correct" is different from others. By the
way, I've never been to Russia, but I have seen hours
of Church worship in Russia and I didn't see a lot of
"dressing up".

I respond:
What I said was that folks should dress respectfully when going to 'Gods House'.
It's a straw man to ask 'how do you know what God wants'; everyone knows what
clothes take them 10 minutes to throw on, and which they where to an important
event to show respect.  At work I can't wear jeans, flip flops, or shirts with
holes in them.  It doesn't take much to know that to show respect for God AT
LEAST the same should standard should apply and yes it different for different
folks.  Either way it behooves the church to at least remind folks that there
are some commandments regarding prayer and attire that they should ponder.

In Russia at a monastary my wife was required to borrow a wrap around skirt and
wear the head scarf she'd brought as my wife had worn dress pants, before they'd
let her visit the church.  I can see some debate as to whether the church should
REQUIRE this, but I feel at a minimum it should encourage it by having a sign
reminding folks of this, and having scarves and or skirts on hand to borrow for
those unprepared but interested in following these commandments.

That said young people in Russia are no encyclopedias of Church tradition. 
There are many who forget or are unaware of such things which I'm sure you've
seen.  I didn't see anyone dressing down when I went to church there though.  I
will say that there needs to be more of an effort there to infom folks of these
tradtions and how one typically conducts themselves in church.  Many young
people were baptised post 1992 but know little about these things.  (The
proposed basic Orthodox Culture classes in Russia would probably do this).

Larry writes:
  Maybe you know more than I do.
There's nothing disrespectful about actually enjoying
Liturgy.
I beg your pardon, but the Church that we are going to
DOES celebrate the Feasts,and the Fasts and Holydays
and Vespers. And they are not hung up on clothing.


I respond:
Frankly Holy Scripture is pretty clear on clothing, and didn't say much at all
about Feasts, and basic respect is in play too.  My freinds birthday is a
celebration, and certainly there's a lot of partying but that doesn't mean I
pick whatever off the floor to wear for that either.  Further one should respect
other at liturgy by not wearing something distracting. Some Gospel churchs ENJOY
the liturgy too; they've turned it into an R&B concert.  Frankly I find that
disrespectful also.

Larry writes:
As far as the old calendar not working, you are right.
It is hard to find 20 people north of BayCity, Mi who
have even heard of the old calendar. Let alone use it.
The new calendar never should have gotten started but
here it is.
It has NOTHING to do with a problem of "anyone"
staring at us it has to do with celebrating days with
our families and friends. If you like the Old Calendar
fine, but I tried it and it dosen't fit for me.
The Church has done everything for me and I try to do
all that I can for the church.
I just do the best that I can.
Love in Christ,
Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

I respond:
As I said I think its more about motivation with the calendar.  I don't really
see anything bad about having double the feastdays in the year, and often
observe some twice (attending the local new calendar parish one day and the old
calendar parish on the other).

You're other post and this one seems very concered with new folks.

I orginally attended a presbyterian church my parents still attend.  I was never
baptised but did go regurally as a child.  Sunday school was a party but not
real informative.  Dress was casual.  Heck pretty much everything was casual.

If I'd have seen the same thing when I first went to an Orthodox parish I
probably would have written off the church as just the same ol same ol.

The protestants have made an art out of making church fun, and casual and it
hasn't exactly worked out great for them.

I can see areas where lenicny may not hurt if but if the rationale is making it
easier for folks to come to the church by lessening what the church is that's
dangerous thinking.  Sooner or latter the baby gets thrown out with the
bathwater.

George


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear. Fr. John:

See responses below.


--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
<vrevjrs@...> wrote:
>
> JRS: The flaw in that reasoning should be obvious.
>
> First, the evil regime lasted from 1917 till 1991 (although the
situation of the Church had
> become easier after 1985, under Gorbachev).
>
> The evil regime ruled the largest country in the world, and its
pressure was felt everywhere
> in that country.
>
> Consequently, if someone was born or grew up in the Soviet Union,
and wanted to serve
> the Church, there was no choice of "what regime to serve under".
They could only live and
> function in the country they were born in.
>
> To demand "active and open repentance" for that, is absurd.


This argument made by Father John assumes that one could not serve the
church as a layperson outside of the clerical orders of the Soviet
church.  It assumes that there was no church to serve under unless you
joined the Soviet-controlled clergy; a falsehood.  It assumes that
Reidiger (sp) did not know that a career as a clergyman would involve
an ordination subject to atheism's priorities over one's governing
hierarchy.  It assumes that he could not have worked somewhere else
for a living.  It assumes a false choice.  Unless the Soviets forced
Reidiger into the clergy, he chose to be among the Soviet-controlled
clergy.  How could he rise to prominence as an Archbishop if he were
not a favored aide to the Soviet government? How could he be ordained
following a divorce unless it were a Soviet, or otherwise
ill-motivated ordination? What other example of a holy hierarch is
there in the Orthodox Churches who divorced as an Orthodox Christian
immediately before seeking the priesthood? Of course there is
forgiveness and extenuating circumstances re: divorce, but is it
fitting for one ordained into holy offices? Or would such an
ordination be another way that the USSR could denigrate the Church, or
keep it secularized, by imitating secular standards of doing things?
Shouldn't there be a difference?

>
> > What does that mean?  It does not necessarily mean detailed
> > confessions to the public at large, but public action in repentance.
> > A person who climbed the ladder within the MP in Soviet times as
> > Patriarch Alexei II and his colleagues did, had to collaborate with
> > the Soviet regime to be promoted.  There was a quid pro quo to keep
> > power, suggesting a passion for power-seeking in such persons who were
> > ordained and promoted under Soviet rule.
>
> JRS: Hardly. The Church cannot function without clergy, and there
must be bishops in the
> Orthodox Church. To say that anyone who inherited a throne did so
out of "a passion for
> power-seeking" is not warranted.
>
> But what of those who were bishops in the Russian Empire? They could
not be consecrated
> without the Tsar's approval. Does that mean they were "power-seekers"?


The Czar, you fail to point out, was not an atheist authority.
Therefore, no, power-seeking wouldn't be the usual motive under a
spiritual Czar, however, earthly power seeking is the only possible
result of promotion under an atheist authority, since there is nothing
spiritual from God in it to seek.


>
> > Should the penance for sins of power-seeking and keeping be at least
> > the relinquishment of that abused power? Or is the penance for a
> > kleptomaniac, for example, to remain in their bank teller positions?
>
> JRS: More nonsense.
>
> More than half (i.e. most) of the bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate
have been
> consecrated since the fall of communism in Russia.


. . and ordained and promoted prior to the Bishop's office before the
fall of the USSR as an external form of government.  Your point
ignores the impact of almost 90 years of Soviet programming and
cultural revision, as if the spirit beneath atheism and genocide
against the church just suddenly disappeared in 1991. That is the real
nonsensical and magical thinking written here today, Fr. John.

> Of those who remain from before that time, a good number have been
quietly retired (or
> not so quietly, in the case of Philaret of Kiev).
>
> But there are over 150 bishops in the Russian Orthodox Church, and
if they were all to
> step down, who would take their places?

Well, think of it: those Bishops from before the spiritually arbitrary
but politically significant date of 1991 were quietly retired; and if
so, why not Patriarch Alexei II also?

Who would replace the Bishops?  How about those who meet the
qualifications as set forth in the Holy Scripture?  How about
spiritual men whose motivation in to serve in the free Church of
Christ?  In all of our disagreements, we have not disagreed that there
are such pious people among the Russians. In fact, most arguments
trying to justify this premature lift on the medicinal communion
suspension always emphasize the piety of the humble Russian people
because you and others in your movement know that it is such people
that are needed to legitimize the rascals who have remained in the
Moscow Patriarchate's offices from Soviet career to Russian Federation
career.

And now we have no Czar in Russia, but instead another secular
authoritarian, and the MP officials are acting like Russia's back to
normal. The truth is, you hate Czarist Russia or else you wouldn't
attack it so much as a defense of the Sovietists in the MP; and, in
support of the status quo's legitimization by aggressive RF pursuit of
the ROCA's stamp of canonical approval on the MP. To the secular
pragmatists running Russia now, Czars imply very inconvenient
loyalties to spiritual ideals, and some argue that they are too
tempted to myopic abuse of power.  I would argue that the genuine
loyalty to spiritual priorities in truly Czarist government would be
the one thing that checks abuse of power, whereas with the politicians
of hypocritical authoritarianism in power now, little checks them.

Can there be a democratic socialist government with an anointed Czar
in Russia that would work in Orthodox Christian diligence and glory to
God?  I'll bet an imperfect shot at it could be made, and that would
be enough.  God would do the rest to bring all of that corruption,
mercenariness and temptation to the more unsavory outer influences of
world capitalism to the confessional and hopefully out of the hearts
of Russians and many who see them as a future spiritual example to
follow, somewhat as is felt about the Amish this past week and more
so.  Holiness evangelizes, afterall, not frequent,
super-organizational church involvements and globe-trotting junkets by
hierarchs. That's the corporate, worldly networking and marketing
model that is hollowing out hearts everywhere.


> The Church Abroad is very short of bishops and candidates today; and
anyone in Russia
> who was born after the fall of communism, would be 15 years old or
less.

If administrative convenience mattered more than spiritual strength,
I'd listen to that argument. It doesn't. If the beauty of the services
depended on human performance, I'd believe you. It doesn't. I believe
God provides. Besides, the issue is not when the candidates were born,
but when they were ordained. In some cases now, I suspect that the
passionate pressure exerted by you and others to keep the Sovietists
in the MP suggests that the spirit of Sovietism is not dead, and
perhaps more "true nationalistic believers" will be produced to man
the Patriarchate and keep the church in service to the state.

From slavery to slavery the rulers of the Russian people place the
Russians, and you call those who oppose their elitist, non-egalitarian
agenda "Russophobic"?  On the contrary: God save the Russians from
their current governing elites.  Out with the old and in with the new,
or else no real metanoia will come of 1991.

>
> > I hope you see the main point that repentance is action counter to not
> > just the sin, but to the passions underlying them, or so I
understand it.
>
> JRS: In all of these comments, you have overlooked the fact that
Patriarch Alexy II did ask
> public forgiveness for all the actions of the Moscow Patriarchate,
back in 1991, and that
> the decisions of the Moscow Sobor of 2000 are accepted by our
hierarchy as a satisfactory
> rejection of Sergianism.

Repentance is action, not words alone. It involves stepping down.

If our SOBOR prayed at the tomb of St. John of Shanghai and SF for
guidance in 2006, would they not change their mind if they refocused
on the fact that St. John Maximovitch (being the saint he was later
beautified and confirmed to be) wrote that repentance for Moscow
Patriarchate officials would take the form of stepping down from
office in imitation of the Patriarch Paul who has collaborated with
the iconoclasts?  Why seek his guidance on an issue and assume it was
given invisibly when St. John had already written visibly the exact
guidance they needed?  Remember the Lord said, "why do you say Lord,
Lord but do not what I say?"

>
> In Christ
> Fr. John R. Shaw
>

Deferring to the Lord Jesus Christ,

Michael

Fr.John wrote:
   "Consequently, if someone was born or grew up in the Soviet Union, and wanted
to serve the Church, there was no choice of "what regime to serve under". They
could only live and function in the country they were born in."


   MN: That is exactly the problem. How can anyone knowing the MP was a tool
   of the Soviets, want to become a bishop or priest, knowing he will have to
serve
   the Godless Soviets not the Church. The MP being a front for the Soviets.

   The bishops ordained after 1991 grew up and were nourished by the Soviets.
   The people were forbidden to be taught about religion and were persecuted.

   Could Fr.John please show us where Patr.Alexey II asked forgiveness? I
couldn't find it on the ROCOR site. I would imagine such an important document
would be front page on the ROCOR site.

   Why is this so-called repentance not on the ROCOR site?

   There was NO REPENTANCE, that's why.


"Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
           --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson"
<singingmountains@...>
wrote:

> Also, is there precedent for a regime that has murdered and imprisoned
> hundreds of millions of its own people as the USSR had done?

> Reason dictates that the a regime so thoroughly evil as to
> systematically murder and imprison millions on millions of the people
> of God, and anyone who came to and ascended in religious offices under
> that regime's control, should do active and open repentance.

JRS: The flaw in that reasoning should be obvious.

First, the evil regime lasted from 1917 till 1991 (although the situation of the
Church had
become easier after 1985, under Gorbachev).

The evil regime ruled the largest country in the world, and its pressure was
felt everywhere
in that country.

Consequently, if someone was born or grew up in the Soviet Union, and wanted to
serve
the Church, there was no choice of "what regime to serve under". They could only
live and
function in the country they were born in.

To demand "active and open repentance" for that, is absurd.

> What does that mean? It does not necessarily mean detailed
> confessions to the public at large, but public action in repentance.
> A person who climbed the ladder within the MP in Soviet times as
> Patriarch Alexei II and his colleagues did, had to collaborate with
> the Soviet regime to be promoted. There was a quid pro quo to keep
> power, suggesting a passion for power-seeking in such persons who were
> ordained and promoted under Soviet rule.

JRS: Hardly. The Church cannot function without clergy, and there must be
bishops in the
Orthodox Church. To say that anyone who inherited a throne did so out of "a
passion for
power-seeking" is not warranted.

But what of those who were bishops in the Russian Empire? They could not be
consecrated
without the Tsar's approval. Does that mean they were "power-seekers"?

> Should the penance for sins of power-seeking and keeping be at least
> the relinquishment of that abused power? Or is the penance for a
> kleptomaniac, for example, to remain in their bank teller positions?

JRS: More nonsense.

More than half (i.e. most) of the bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate have been
consecrated since the fall of communism in Russia.

Of those who remain from before that time, a good number have been quietly
retired (or
not so quietly, in the case of Philaret of Kiev).

But there are over 150 bishops in the Russian Orthodox Church, and if they were
all to
step down, who would take their places?

The Church Abroad is very short of bishops and candidates today; and anyone in
Russia
who was born after the fall of communism, would be 15 years old or less.

> I hope you see the main point that repentance is action counter to not
> just the sin, but to the passions underlying them, or so I understand it.

JRS: In all of these comments, you have overlooked the fact that Patriarch Alexy
II did ask
public forgiveness for all the actions of the Moscow Patriarchate, back in 1991,
and that
the decisions of the Moscow Sobor of 2000 are accepted by our hierarchy as a
satisfactory
rejection of Sergianism.

In Christ
Fr. John R. Shaw






---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on  Yahoo! Small Business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@...>
wrote:

> Who would replace the Bishops?  How about those who meet the
> qualifications as set forth in the Holy Scripture?  How about
> spiritual men whose motivation in to serve in the free Church of
> Christ?  In all of our disagreements, we have not disagreed that there
> are such pious people among the Russians.

JRS: First of all, not all pious people are meant to be bishops.

  Perhaps you recall that St. Sergius of Radonezh declined to be made a bishop,
and said,
"Pache mery moeja est delo sije"?

And if new bishops were so easy to find, why have we long had such difficulty
finding
them in ROCOR?

Currently we have no bishops in South America, where there used to be several
dioceses;

no bishops in Canada, where there used to be two;

no Bishop (or Archbishop) of Washington and Florida, and that was the next most
important See after the Metropolitan;

no bishop in England;

no bishop in Austria;

no Bishop of Seattle,

no Bishop of Boston;

no bishop of Los Angeles.

Why?

> Repentance is action, not words alone. It involves stepping down.

JRS: You still have not provided any serious alternative to ordinations that
took place from
1917 to 1991.

Do you think the Church should get by without clergy?

Without the Eucharist, without Chrism, without Holy Matrimony?

> If our SOBOR prayed at the tomb of St. John of Shanghai and SF for
> guidance in 2006, would they not change their mind ...

JRS: In fact, they (we) did indeed pray at his tomb.

> if they refocused
> on the fact that St. John Maximovitch ... wrote that repentance for Moscow
> Patriarchate officials would take the form of stepping down from
> office ...

JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always commemorated
the
Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.

In Christ
Fr. John R. Shaw

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
Dear George,
Thanks for the excellent definition of Sub-deacon
Love in Christ,
Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

--- George Edward Green III <kharaku@...> wrote:

> http://orthodoxwiki.org/Subdeacon
>
> A subdeacon (or sub-deacon) is the highest of the
> minor orders of clergy in the Church. This order is
> higher than the reader and lower than the deacon.
>
> The subdeacon's essential role is to assist the
> bishop during a hierarchical Divine Liturgy (a
> Divine Liturgy at which a bishop is present and
> presiding) by vesting him, holding his service book,
> carrying his staff, presenting him with the dikiri
> and trikiri, etc.
> There is a special service for the ordination of a
> subdeacon, although in contemporary practice an
> acolyte or a reader may receive the bishop's
> blessing to vest and act as a subdeacon, either for
> a particular occasion or permanently. The main
> reason for this practice lies in the fact that the
> canons (e.g., Apostolic canon 26 et al.) prohibit
> subdeacons to marry after their ordination (just
> like deacons and priests). This latter stipulation
> has sometimes led to the reservation of the formal
> ordination service to candidates for the priesthood,
> although this is not universal.
>
> Although the canons stipulate the subdeacons may not
> marry after their ordination to the subdiaconate, in
> modern practice, some churches allow them to marry.
> (As with many canons, the way this one is applied
> varies.)
> The subdeacon is vested in a sticharion with an
> orarion tied around his waist, up over his shoulders
> (forming an X-shaped cross in back), and with the
> ends hanging down in front, tucked under the section
> around the waist. Like readers, subdeacons are
> permitted to wear a cassock, although many only do
> so when attending services.
> When there is no bishop present, a subdeacon will
> take the role of acolyte, assisting the priest
> during religious services in the altar.
>
> On Friday, October 06, 2006, at 08:29AM, rdsieckmann
> <diane59@...> wrote:
>
> >
> ><<Original Attached>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>
>


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GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
Dear George,
Thank you for the very thoughtful and carefully
thought out reply. My wife and I were talking about
this same subject today, and we remembered that the
priest at the Church that we attended for over 20 year
was a wonderful holy man (he is the priest that
Chrismated our family into the Orthodox Church from
the Byzantine Rite Catholic Church. He passed away
last month and we went to his funeral. We remembered
today in talking, that his Matushka (Kathleen) never
wore a scarf or hat and quite often wore slacks to
Church, yet she was probably one of the best priests
wives ever. I never encountered this clothing
"problem" until we began attending the local ROCOR
parish in Atlantic Mine. Then on this and other
groupes it was  heavily debated. To me it is spending
energy on something that could be spent on something
else. I guess,if you want to enforce a dress code,
that is your choice, but don't be surprised if you
have nearly empty churches.
I wish all of the Churches that fret about  what to
wear, all the best. I have other things to worry
about.
The same for all of the old calendar churches in the
US. If you can get the other jurisdictions to go back,
great. I'll be a happy man. If not, good luck in
spreading the good news of Orthodoxy.
Love in Christ,
Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

--- George Edward Green III <kharaku@...> wrote:

> Larry Writes:
> GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
> Dear George,
> I sat on your reply for a couple of days so I could
> think about what you wrote.
> Here is my reply. If you are accustomed to the
> "proper
> ways" of doing things at Church (and I am) then that
> is fine, but for folks who come to enqire, it is
> quite
> a different story.
>
> I respond:
> I think it can be a problem for new comers though I
> suspect we disagree on what that means.  That said
> the first Orthodox church I went to, and was
> baptised into was fairly liberal on such things.
> They were also new calendar, had pews etc.  Great
> church, and great folks there too.
>
> Larry continues:
> I have found the Church and I CAN
> live with all of that, but newcomers come, look ,
> and
> LEAVE. If you like that it's fine. How do you know
> exactly how God wants you to dress and what if you
> idea of "correct" is different from others. By the
> way, I've never been to Russia, but I have seen
> hours
> of Church worship in Russia and I didn't see a lot
> of
> "dressing up".
>
> I respond:
> What I said was that folks should dress respectfully
> when going to 'Gods House'.  It's a straw man to ask
> 'how do you know what God wants'; everyone knows
> what clothes take them 10 minutes to throw on, and
> which they where to an important event to show
> respect.  At work I can't wear jeans, flip flops, or
> shirts with holes in them.  It doesn't take much to
> know that to show respect for God AT LEAST the same
> should standard should apply and yes it different
> for different folks.  Either way it behooves the
> church to at least remind folks that there are some
> commandments regarding prayer and attire that they
> should ponder.
>
> In Russia at a monastary my wife was required to
> borrow a wrap around skirt and wear the head scarf
> she'd brought as my wife had worn dress pants,
> before they'd let her visit the church.  I can see
> some debate as to whether the church should REQUIRE
> this, but I feel at a minimum it should encourage it
> by having a sign reminding folks of this, and having
> scarves and or skirts on hand to borrow for those
> unprepared but interested in following these
> commandments.
>
> That said young people in Russia are no
> encyclopedias of Church tradition.  There are many
> who forget or are unaware of such things which I'm
> sure you've seen.  I didn't see anyone dressing down
> when I went to church there though.  I will say that
> there needs to be more of an effort there to infom
> folks of these tradtions and how one typically
> conducts themselves in church.  Many young people
> were baptised post 1992 but know little about these
> things.  (The proposed basic Orthodox Culture
> classes in Russia would probably do this).
>
> Larry writes:
>  Maybe you know more than I do.
> There's nothing disrespectful about actually
> enjoying
> Liturgy.
> I beg your pardon, but the Church that we are going
> to
> DOES celebrate the Feasts,and the Fasts and Holydays
> and Vespers. And they are not hung up on clothing.
>
>
> I respond:
> Frankly Holy Scripture is pretty clear on clothing,
> and didn't say much at all about Feasts, and basic
> respect is in play too.  My freinds birthday is a
> celebration, and certainly there's a lot of partying
> but that doesn't mean I pick whatever off the floor
> to wear for that either.  Further one should respect
> other at liturgy by not wearing something
> distracting. Some Gospel churchs ENJOY the liturgy
> too; they've turned it into an R&B concert.  Frankly
> I find that disrespectful also.
>
> Larry writes:
> As far as the old calendar not working, you are
> right.
> It is hard to find 20 people north of BayCity, Mi
> who
> have even heard of the old calendar. Let alone use
> it.
> The new calendar never should have gotten started
> but
> here it is.
> It has NOTHING to do with a problem of "anyone"
> staring at us it has to do with celebrating days
> with
> our families and friends. If you like the Old
> Calendar
> fine, but I tried it and it dosen't fit for me.
> The Church has done everything for me and I try to
> do
> all that I can for the church.
> I just do the best that I can.
> Love in Christ,
> Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
>
> I respond:
> As I said I think its more about motivation with the
> calendar.  I don't really see anything bad about
> having double the feastdays in the year, and often
> observe some twice (attending the local new calendar
> parish one day and the old calendar parish on the
> other).
>
> You're other post and this one seems very concered
> with new folks.
>
> I orginally attended a presbyterian church my
> parents still attend.  I was never baptised but did
> go regurally as a child.  Sunday school was a party
> but not real informative.  Dress was casual.  Heck
> pretty much everything was casual.
>
> If I'd have seen the same thing when I first went to
> an Orthodox parish I probably would have written off
> the church as just the same ol same ol.
>
> The protestants have made an art out of making
> church fun, and casual and it hasn't exactly worked
> out great for them.
>
> I can see areas where lenicny may not hurt if but if
> the rationale is making it easier for folks to come
> to the church by lessening what the church is that's
> dangerous thinking.  Sooner or latter the baby gets
> thrown out with the bathwater.
>
> George
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>
>


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Fr.John wrote:
JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always commemorated
the Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.

MN: Fr. John, you are mixing St. John Maximovitch with yourself.
     St. John already took a stand against MP in China.

Please read below:

http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiology/shahovskoy-confirmation.html

EDICT OF HIS PATRIARCHAL HOLINESS

Of Moscow And All Russia

to his Grace the Archbishop of Peking and China VICTOR

TAKEN UNDER CONSIDERATION:

The status of Church affairs in the Chinese Spiritual
Mission according to reports received from his Grace
the Archbishop of China VICTOR and his Grace the
Metropolitan of Harbin NESTOR.

Journal number 15 assigned by the Holy Synod on June
12, 1946.

IT IS DECREED:

1. That in accordance with the request of his Grace
Archbishop Victor that Bishop Juvenal (formerly of
Qiqihar) be appointed at the discretion of Archbishop
Victor as the replacement for the cathedra of the
Archbishop of Shanghai John, who does not recognize
the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate.

2. To propose to his Grace Metropolitan Nestor that at
the discretion of Archbishop Victor and in accordance
with his request a sufficient number of priests be
transferred from the East Asian Exarchate to Shanghai
to replace those priests who have not recognized the
jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, specifically
– if they so agree – Archimandrites Philaret,** Joseph
and Benjamin, Archpriests Rostislav Gan and Simeon
Novosiltsev and Deacon Gorelkin, advocated by his
Grace Archbishop Victor. To inform Metropolitan
Nestor, Archbishop Victor and Bishop Juvenal of this
decree.

ALEKSEY, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia

Protopresbyter N. KOLCHITSKY, Chancellor of the Moscow
Patriarchate
13 June, 1946






"Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:                                 
--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@...>
  wrote:

  > Who would replace the Bishops?  How about those who meet the
  > qualifications as set forth in the Holy Scripture?  How about
  > spiritual men whose motivation in to serve in the free Church of
  > Christ?  In all of our disagreements, we have not disagreed that there
  > are such pious people among the Russians.

  JRS: First of all, not all pious people are meant to be bishops.

  Perhaps you recall that St. Sergius of Radonezh declined to be made a bishop,
and said,
  "Pache mery moeja est delo sije"?

  And if new bishops were so easy to find, why have we long had such difficulty
finding
  them in ROCOR?

  Currently we have no bishops in South America, where there used to be several
dioceses;

  no bishops in Canada, where there used to be two;

  no Bishop (or Archbishop) of Washington and Florida, and that was the next most
  important See after the Metropolitan;

  no bishop in England;

  no bishop in Austria;

  no Bishop of Seattle,

  no Bishop of Boston;

  no bishop of Los Angeles.

  Why?

  > Repentance is action, not words alone. It involves stepping down.

  JRS: You still have not provided any serious alternative to ordinations that
took place from
  1917 to 1991.

  Do you think the Church should get by without clergy?

  Without the Eucharist, without Chrism, without Holy Matrimony?

  > If our SOBOR prayed at the tomb of St. John of Shanghai and SF for
  > guidance in 2006, would they not change their mind ...

  JRS: In fact, they (we) did indeed pray at his tomb.

  > if they refocused
  > on the fact that St. John Maximovitch ... wrote that repentance for Moscow
  > Patriarchate officials would take the form of stepping down from
  > office ...

  JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always commemorated
the
  Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.

  In Christ
  Fr. John R. Shaw






---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on  Yahoo! Small Business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Why do you ignore Saint John's own account of what he did and why he
did it. He gave a report on his actions in China and they are a
matter of record. Other peoples spin on his actions and motives are
just that, spin...he explained himself quite clearly.
Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko





--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
<nikitinmike@...> wrote:
>
>
> Fr.John wrote:
> JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always
commemorated the Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.
>
> MN: Fr. John, you are mixing St. John Maximovitch with yourself.
>     St. John already took a stand against MP in China.
>
> Please read below:
>
> http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiology/shahovskoy-
confirmation.html
>
> EDICT OF HIS PATRIARCHAL HOLINESS
>
> Of Moscow And All Russia
>
> to his Grace the Archbishop of Peking and China VICTOR
>
> TAKEN UNDER CONSIDERATION:
>
> The status of Church affairs in the Chinese Spiritual
> Mission according to reports received from his Grace
> the Archbishop of China VICTOR and his Grace the
> Metropolitan of Harbin NESTOR.
>
> Journal number 15 assigned by the Holy Synod on June
> 12, 1946.
>
> IT IS DECREED:
>
> 1. That in accordance with the request of his Grace
> Archbishop Victor that Bishop Juvenal (formerly of
> Qiqihar) be appointed at the discretion of Archbishop
> Victor as the replacement for the cathedra of the
> Archbishop of Shanghai John, who does not recognize
> the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate.
>
> 2. To propose to his Grace Metropolitan Nestor that at
> the discretion of Archbishop Victor and in accordance
> with his request a sufficient number of priests be
> transferred from the East Asian Exarchate to Shanghai
> to replace those priests who have not recognized the
> jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, specifically
> – if they so agree – Archimandrites Philaret,** Joseph
> and Benjamin, Archpriests Rostislav Gan and Simeon
> Novosiltsev and Deacon Gorelkin, advocated by his
> Grace Archbishop Victor. To inform Metropolitan
> Nestor, Archbishop Victor and Bishop Juvenal of this
> decree.
>
> ALEKSEY, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia
>
> Protopresbyter N. KOLCHITSKY, Chancellor of the Moscow
> Patriarchate
> 13 June, 1946
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
wrote:                                  --- In orthodox-
synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@>
>  wrote:
>
>  > Who would replace the Bishops?  How about those who meet the
>  > qualifications as set forth in the Holy Scripture?  How about
>  > spiritual men whose motivation in to serve in the free Church of
>  > Christ?  In all of our disagreements, we have not disagreed
that there
>  > are such pious people among the Russians.
>
>  JRS: First of all, not all pious people are meant to be bishops.
>
>  Perhaps you recall that St. Sergius of Radonezh declined to be
made a bishop, and said,
>  "Pache mery moeja est delo sije"?
>
>  And if new bishops were so easy to find, why have we long had
such difficulty finding
>  them in ROCOR?
>
>  Currently we have no bishops in South America, where there used
to be several dioceses;
>
>  no bishops in Canada, where there used to be two;
>
>  no Bishop (or Archbishop) of Washington and Florida, and that was
the next most
>  important See after the Metropolitan;
>
>  no bishop in England;
>
>  no bishop in Austria;
>
>  no Bishop of Seattle,
>
>  no Bishop of Boston;
>
>  no bishop of Los Angeles.
>
>  Why?
>
>  > Repentance is action, not words alone. It involves stepping
down.
>
>  JRS: You still have not provided any serious alternative to
ordinations that took place from
>  1917 to 1991.
>
>  Do you think the Church should get by without clergy?
>
>  Without the Eucharist, without Chrism, without Holy Matrimony?
>
>  > If our SOBOR prayed at the tomb of St. John of Shanghai and SF
for
>  > guidance in 2006, would they not change their mind ...
>
>  JRS: In fact, they (we) did indeed pray at his tomb.
>
>  > if they refocused
>  > on the fact that St. John Maximovitch ... wrote that repentance
for Moscow
>  > Patriarchate officials would take the form of stepping down from
>  > office ...
>
>  JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always
commemorated the
>  Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.
>
>  In Christ
>  Fr. John R. Shaw
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Want to be your own boss? Learn how on  Yahoo! Small Business.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
<StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
>
> Why do you ignore Saint John's own account of what he did and why he
> did it. He gave a report on his actions in China and they are a
> matter of record. Other peoples spin on his actions and motives are
> just that, spin...he explained himself quite clearly.

JRS: They ignore the facts, because HOCNA is a church of lies.

It was founded on lies, and it survives only by lies and deception.

Frs. Stefan Pavlenko and John Shaw,
       is the document below from Patr.Alexey II deceitful and a lie?

   Michael N


       Journal number 15 assigned by the Holy Synod on June 12, 1946.
IT IS DECREED:

1. That in accordance with the request of his Grace
        Archbishop Victor that Bishop Juvenal (formerly of
  Qiqihar) be appointed at the discretion of Archbishop
Victor as the replacement for the cathedra of the
Archbishop of Shanghai John, who does not recognize
the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate.

     2. To propose to his Grace Metropolitan Nestor that at
   the discretion of Archbishop Victor and in accordance
   with his request a sufficient number of priests be
   transferred from the East Asian Exarchate to Shanghai
   to replace those priests who have not recognized the
   jurisdiction of the Moscow   Patriarchate, specifically
   – if they so agree – Archimandrites Philaret,** Joseph
   and Benjamin, Archpriests Rostislav Gan and Simeon
   Novosiltsev and Deacon Gorelkin, advocated by his
   Grace Archbishop Victor. To inform Metropolitan
   Nestor, Archbishop Victor and Bishop Juvenal of this
   decree.

   ALEKSEY, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia

   Protopresbyter N. KOLCHITSKY, Chancellor of the Moscow
   Patriarchate
   13 June, 1946


   Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:           
Why do you ignore Saint John's own account of what he did and why he
   did it. He gave a report on his actions in China and they are a
   matter of record. Other peoples spin on his actions and motives are
   just that, spin...he explained himself quite clearly.
   Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

   --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, michael nikitin
   <nikitinmike@ ...> wrote:
   >
   >
   > Fr.John wrote:
   > JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always
   commemorated the Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.
   >
   > MN: Fr. John, you are mixing St. John Maximovitch with yourself.
   > St. John already took a stand against MP in China.
   >
   > Please read below:
   >
   > http://www.holy- trinity.org/ ecclesiology/ shahovskoy-
   confirmation. html


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Our ROCOR parish (not at our parish, but at our sister parish in
Kanata) was informed last Saturday by Bishop Gabriel of Manhattan
that the ROCOR synod is going to sign some sort of agreement called
the act, to submitt to some sort of autonmous status under the mp.
Apparently all the ROCOR demands such as the mp leaving the wcc have
been dropped and the agreement is to be signed this December and
full communion will be established at Pascha next year.

For a while I was in total shock as I had no idea things were
happening so quickly as the full synod in San Fransisco had advised
against this very thing. It seems as if the bishops have gone
against the wishes of the people.

Now what is to be done? I can not go to an ecumenist church. I do
not know if the majority or even a sizable minority of the
parishioners wish to separate and we will most definitely have to
leave our beautiful church behind and go to some sort of protestant
hall. I know the true believers in Russia have had to suffer more,
but we are not used to suffering here in Canada.

All your prayers and thoughts are welcome...Stephan in Ottawa

Dear Fr. John:

See responses below.


--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
wrote:
> JRS: First of all, not all pious people are meant to be bishops.
>  Perhaps you recall that St. Sergius of Radonezh declined to be made a
bishop, and said,
> "Pache mery moeja est delo sije"?

That not all pious people are meant to be Bishops is a very good point,
Fr. John. If they were, there would be no pious people left in the rest
of the Church.
And would you agree that impious people are not normally meant to be
Bishops whose offices would be established on impiety, for example, on
the divorce of a marriage about which the Lord Jesus Christ has taught,
"He who divorces his wife causes her to commit adultery"? And he who
thereafter marries again commits adultery too? What sort of example is
this to the flock and to the world in an age when untold suffering comes
from divorce and broken families?

Knowing this, will you pray to the Lord Jesus Christ to show you how
Orthodox Christian men can divorce their wives and be Bishop's too?  The
WCC no doubt has more suggestions for revisions from the revolutionary
versions of the Holy Bible which aren't really the Holy Bible. Would you
like to ask God to make it Nine Commands instead of Ten, and revise the
Holy Scriptures so that Patriarch Alexei II does not have to step down?
Is it all about him, or about faithfulness to God's Living Word, the
Lord Jesus Christ?

Maybe you think I'm talking about the adultery impliedly caused by
Reidiger's divorce if his ex-wife remarried, but I am really focusing on
his adultery with the Soviet state against the Lord Jesus Christ in the
name of His Bride the Church (slandering the Church) and now, with the
Russian Federation, yet another false lover. How long will you support
the spiritual adultery of state intrusion into the sanctuaries of the
Bride of Christ?

It seems to me that the few notables who have ever suggested abrogation
of the adultery commandment were Jane Fonda's ex-husband Ted Turner, the
Marquis de Sade, and perhaps a few of the dark Popes of the Middle Ages.
They're all impious, so should we ordain them as Bishops to sin more
that grace may abound?  God forbid, Fr. John, the Bishop shortage
notwithstanding.





      > And if new bishops were so easy to find, why have we long had such
>difficulty finding
> them in ROCOR?



The Apostle Paul once said, "Ye have many teachers, but ye have not many
fathers in Christ." And then he gave thanks that he hadn't baptized more
people, citing the immense responsibility involved and what others might
make of it. How many people do you know who volunteer to be a Bishop, or
who send in their resume hoping to get the job?

Do you really want those priests who desire to be Bishops (e.g. the
former 'Fr. Benedict' aka Samuel A. Greene, Jr., the registered child
sex offender who used to proclaim himself Bishop and Exarch of some
faux-jurisdiction) rather than those who are immersed in the business of
spiritual living and reluctantl to upset that balance to expand it to
service as a Bishop? Perhaps few are qualified to do this because there
are so few spiritual examples for them to follow today, in which case
the problem is the lack of examples of leadership by exampledue to the
preoccupations of this day and age.

Who are the priests imitating who dwell on the internet and engage in
questionable disputations?  Do you need a for-instance of questionable
disputation?

You imply that a shortage of Bishops means a necessary scarcity of the
Holy Mysteries.  However, are not a large number of priests able to be
equipped by even a few Bishops to prepare and feed the flock throughout
the world with the Holy Mysteries?  Are you saying that priests cannot
project the Bishop's services far and wide to help the people of the
world? I thought that's one reason why the functional priesthood came to
be in the first place -- Bishops could not physically be everywhere at
once, and so few were qualified to be Bishops, the +dispersed+ and less
corruptible numerosity of priests seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to
the Apostolic successors to send out. What a great plan God gave in his
priesthood.




> Currently we have no bishops in South America, where there used to
> be several dioceses;
>
> no bishops in Canada, where there used to be two;
>
> no Bishop (or Archbishop) of Washington and Florida, and that was
> the next most
> important See after the Metropolitan;
>
> no bishop in England;
>
> no bishop in Austria;
>
> no Bishop of Seattle,
>
> no Bishop of Boston;
>
> no bishop of Los Angeles.
>
> Why?


Perhaps God would have us wait on Him for that answer.  But that doesn't
satisfy your masters, does it?  I can think of many reasons why. And
yet, why should you ask me such a question when God knows and reigns for
you to consult?





> > Repentance is action, not words alone. It involves stepping down.
>
> JRS: You still have not provided any serious alternative to
ordinations that took place from

> 1917 to 1991.

Isn't ordination a spiritual decision led by the Holy Spirit and not
something that people throw into the discussion bin on the internet as
"serious alternatives" as if it were . . a . . government decision?
Well, maybe for your camp, it is.  But the Apostle Paul discussed
ordination with a much more spiritual tone, putting spiritual
qualifications first.

Haven't you said that many seminaries, churches and the like are being
built by the government in Russia? Perhaps these developments are a
preparation for a time when the Soviet-ordained Moscow Patriarchate
officials will have finally repented in action and stepped down so that
a spiritual Church rebirth may actually occur rather than the
administrative rebirth of the MP's willpower exerted abroad.  The sooner
the better. Perhaps this is the time of preparation.

All that are needed are a 'few good men' so to speak who can train
others (e.g. surviving clergy and members of catacomb churches in
Russia, some willing priests in the ROCOR - please no apparatchiks of
Moscow's current MP), and the pious Russian people we so often talk
about on this forum can assist in the elections by advising on the
genuiness of their priests.  The Lord Himself started with 12.  Do you
require some better model than His to get things done? Or will you
continue sticking with the Moscow Patriarchate's way of doing things?




> Do you think the Church should get by without clergy?



As discussed above, this is a false alternative.



> Without the Eucharist, without Chrism, without Holy Matrimony?
>
> > If our SOBOR prayed at the tomb of St. John of Shanghai and SF for
> > guidance in 2006, would they not change their mind ...
>
> JRS: In fact, they (we) did indeed pray at his tomb.



Yes, you said Vladyka, Vladyka, or Master, Master, but have you heeded
what the Saint wrote about what repentance in the Moscow Patriarchate
officialdom would look like? You have not answered that.  He specified
in no uncertain terms what it would mean: their stepping down.

It seems to me that many sought answers from the Lord Jesus Christ who
were referred to the law and prophets for their answers.  If they would
not listen to them, they would not listen to the Lord Jesus Christ, it
seemed. And if you would not heed what St. John wrote when he was here,
why pray to him for guidance?  Was there a confirmed miracle  following
that prayer tantamount to a white dove landing on Patriarch Alexei II's
head and saying, this is the leader of the One Russian Church with whom
I am well-pleased, hear ye him? I doubt it, and also, whether the saint
would write something diametrically opposed to that view.

Or rather, were the desires and passions of the MP fulminating themselvs
in a cloud of false consultation to legitimize its full court press by
using the tomb of St. John of Shanghai and SF to win the hearts and
minds of our hierarchs through their lobbyist clergy in the ROCOR? Based
on the MP's record, this seems unfortunately likely.



> > if they refocused
> > on the fact that St. John Maximovitch ... wrote that repentance for
Moscow
> > Patriarchate officials would take the form of stepping down from
> > office ...
>
> JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always
commemorated the
> Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.


It appears this assertion of yours is in some dispute with the document
brought to our attention by Mr. Nitikin.

If your representation were taken as true, isn't it so that many people
are commemorated at the Proskomidia and it doesn't necessarily mean they
are in good spiritual health or should lead the One Russian Church
because of it?  How do we know that St. John Maximovitch was not praying
for the freeing of the Patriarch's office, or commemorating the
legitimate Patriarch in Heaven's eyes, or the repentance of the one
holding it?  All of these seem more likely considering what St. John
wrote later, and with who he is.





>
> In Christ
> Fr. John R. Shaw
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow
<cafeconlechemom@...>
   wrote:
   > How has the MP really moved forward? The Patriarch congratulates
   > Communist heads of countries which actively persecute Christians.

    Fr. John R. Shaw: Not correct. He congratulated Fidel Castro, who
supported the building of two
   Orthodox churches in Havana: one for the Greeks, and another for the
Russians.


And what about the run-of-the-mill Cubans? Are they permitted to go to
these churches?

   “China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea and Vietnam [are] still considered to
have communist regimes in power. While most experts agree that
communism as an ideology is all but dead, the power structures (my bold
face, MB) in these countries have endured. What’s more, they do not
tolerate the growth of any group perceived as a threat to total
control. North Korea is probably the most restricted nation in the
world. Confessing to being a Christian -- or even suspected of being
one -- will result in imprisonment or death.”
http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?
page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=224

For today, I’ll restrict discussion to Cuba.  More on the MP and
Vietenam and North Korea later.

The state of religion in Cuba, as described by the 2006 International
Religious Freedom Report released by the the US Bureau of Democracy,
Human Rights, and Labor, in part  reads:

“There was no change in the status of respect for religious freedom
during the period covered by this report. Overall human rights
conditions remained poor. Some religious figures who criticized the
Government's totalitarian system in sermons were subjected to intense
harassment.  In general, unregistered religious groups continued to
experience varying degrees of official interference, harassment, and
repression. The Government maintained its policy of permitting
apolitical religious activity to take place in government-approved
sites. However, state security forces continued to subject to
surveillance citizens worshipping in officially sanctioned churches,
and the Government's continued its efforts to maintain a strong degree
of control over religion.”

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71456.htm

People are not allowed to worship freely in Cuba and are actively
persecuted for trying.   See, for example:

http://www.payolibre.addr.com/PRESO-%20Ricardo%20Santiago%20Medina.htm

http://www.cswusa.com/Reports%20Pages/Reports-Cuba.htm

http://www.christianpersecution.info/news/leading-cuban-christian-
dissident-antunez-beaten-in-prison/

www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?
page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=224



The Orthodox churches in Havana, be they Greek or Russian, are just so
many more tourist dollars/rubles/euros in Castro's pocket.  That is
exactly how churches "worked" in the Soviet Union (and there still are
those functioning this way in way in the RF), so it's no surprise that
Patriarch Alexei II congratulated Castro on catching on to this great
money-making scheme.  With God everything is possible, but I don't
think we (with the exception of Fr. John) are anywhere near to
glorifying Fidel as the enlightener of Cuba.

ROCORites are not the only ones who think this.  Orthodox priest, Rev.
Johannes L. Jacobse identified the Soviet playbook: “When Ecumenical
Patriarch Bartholomew visited Cuba in late January [2004], he followed
a script written in the 1970s. We might call this the Fidel Castro
scenario: Invite a prominent Church leader to take part in a public
show of religious tolerance in order to mask the fundamentally
anti-religious policies of the Cuban dictator's regime. When the
Patriarch consecrated an Orthodox Church that closed when Communism was
imposed on Cuba, he barely whispered a word about Castro's human right
abuses.”  See:

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/JacobseCubaVisit.php
Patriarch Bartholomew's Visit to Cuba: A Missed Opportunity for Human
Rights


This is not a question of MP vs. EP.  This is the MP showing  its
communist, sergianist colors by cozying up with Castro to build
churches for show.  Metropolitan Kirill says as much:

   “The church will constitute ‘a monument to Cuban-Russian friendship,’
said Metropolitan Kirill, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church's
foreign relations department. He traveled to Cuba from Moscow for the
consecration.   The church will also pay homage to the thousands of
Russian workers, soldiers and technicians who cooperated with communist
Cuba for three ‘glorious’ decades before the fall of the Soviet Union,
he said.  ‘The past can reunite with the present, with the result being
a common future,’ Metropolitan Kirill said. ‘Russia will again be a
great power ... that supports and defends its friends.’”
http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=7434&sec=15&cont=6

This intertwining of atheistic state and church is the sergianism with
which the MP lives and breathes, and which it is spreading along with
its “church planting” throughout the world.

Churches are to built to give glory to God and His saints. They are not
built to pay homage to people who – wittingly or unwittingly – were
enlisted by the Soviet Union/RF with its partner the MP and Communist
Cuba to enslave the Cubans.  Nor can the new Orthodox churches being
built there be regarded as anything but churches of the antichrist for
the further enslavement of the Cubans until the Cuban government and
all those who morally, financially, and spiritually support it repent
-- publically, in word and deed.  The Moscow Patriarchate should be
first in line.


Melissa Bushunow

















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow <cafeconlechemom@...>
wrote:

> And what about the run-of-the-mill Cubans? Are they permitted to go to
> these churches?

JRS: Thus far, no one has even claimed that people were not being admitted to
these
churches.

>  North Korea is probably the most restricted nation in the
> world. Confessing to being a Christian -- or even suspected of being
> one -- will result in imprisonment or death."
> http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?
> page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=224

JRS: That statement is obviously false.

Saudi Arabia, not North Korea, is the "most restricted nation in the world", and
it is in
Saudi Arabia that there is a death penalty for Christian worship, with special
Islamic
religious police.

> "Overall human rights
> conditions remained poor. Some religious figures who criticized the
> Government's totalitarian system in sermons were subjected to intense
> harassment.  In general, unregistered religious groups continued to
> experience varying degrees of official interference, harassment, and
> repression. The Government maintained its policy of permitting
> apolitical religious activity to take place in government-approved
> sites.

JRS: First of all, the same thing could have been said of Russia before the
revolution; let
alone of the Byzantine Empire, where St. John Chrysostom was exiled for
criticizing the
empress.

It could also be said of many non-communist Latin American dictatorships, or of
Franco's
Spain.

However, the "lack of democracy" is not a canonical, or even a religious, issue.
The
Orthodox Church has existed and functioned throughout its history under
"authoritarian
regimes".

In Christ
Fr. John R. Shaw

--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@...>
wrote:

> See responses below.

JRS: I am just amazed by the amount of  verbiage you can turn out.

I, for one, believe that a simple and clear answer can be given in relatively
few words.

> And would you agree that impious people are not normally meant to be
> Bishops whose offices would be established on impiety, for example, on
> the divorce of a marriage about which the Lord Jesus Christ has taught,
> "He who divorces his wife causes her to commit adultery"? And he who
> thereafter marries again commits adultery too? What sort of example is
> this to the flock and to the world in an age when untold suffering comes
> from divorce and broken families?

JRS: Translation: Does the Church permit divorce?

Answer: Yes, under specific circumstances.

>  Would you
> like to ask God to make it Nine Commands instead of Ten, and revise the
> Holy Scriptures so that Patriarch Alexei II does not have to step down?

JRS: The Scriptures do not call on Christian clergy to "step down".

> Maybe you think I'm talking about the adultery impliedly caused by
> Reidiger's divorce if his ex-wife remarried ...

JRS: The divorce was initiated by his wife of a few hours, who had deserted him
immediately after the wedding.

Consequently, he cannot be blamed for it.

> You imply that a shortage of Bishops means a necessary scarcity of the
> Holy Mysteries.  However, are not a large number of priests able to be
> equipped by even a few Bishops to prepare and feed the flock throughout
> the world with the Holy Mysteries?

JRS: There still must be bishops in order for there to be priests, and there
must be priests
for the Holy Mysteries to be available.

There are about 150 MP bishops, as opposed to many thousands of priests.

But you did not complain of the "large number" of bishops. You said that it was
wrong to
become a bishop in the USSR.

That would have applied to any bishop.

In Christ
Fr. John R. Shaw

Announcing the 2006 Southern Orthodox Missions Conference!

October 27-29, Atlanta, Ga.

Hosted with the blessing of Bishop Gabriel by St. Mary of Egypt Orthodox
Church

Conference Theme: The Mission of the Church in the Modern World

We are pleased to announce that the Myrrh-Streaming
icon of St. Anna from Our Lady, the Joy of All Who Sorrow in
Philadelphia, will be with us for the entire conference.

Conference Location:  First Christian Church of Roswell
11365 Crabapple Road
Roswell, Georgia 30075

Our Speakers:

Fr. Victor Potapov, Pastor, St. John the Baptist, Washington, D.C.: The
Political Mission
Elizabeth Szlek, Licensed Mental Health Counselor: The Ethical Mission
Fr. David Straut, Pastor, St. Elizabeth the New Martyr, Rocky Hill,
N.J.: The Evangelical Mission

All Services will be in English.

Cost $ 100.00
Priest, Deacons and Spouses $75.00
Students $50.00
Cost includes 2 day conference with lunch provided
Saturday and Sunday.

Please register by October 22, 2006. Sign-in will occur at the church on
Friday, the 27th, and on Saturday the 28th at the conference site
itself. Registrants are responsible for reserving their own hotels.

Please see www.stmaryofegypt.org/SOMC2006/
<http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/SOMC2006/>   for further information or
call Larisa Williams at (404) 943-1204.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
<vrevjrs@...> wrote:
> JRS: I am just amazed by the amount of  verbiage you can turn out.


Thanks Fr. John.  Well, when you're untangling so many tangled webs,
and trying to be civil, it takes more words than expected. You don't
have that problem, as words of destruction and lies are easier to
promote and leave ticking on the internet than words of diagnosis,
analysis and prescriptive attempts to help sort out a government
effort to acquire a Church abroad it cannot afford to leave free and
have its agenda too.


> I, for one, believe that a simple and clear answer can be given in
> relatively few words.


When it comes to the sort of propaganda that you have been promoting,
simple, clear and repetitive messages do work best. It's doctrine.

Also, rather than quote all of what is said and deal with the merits,
I noticed that you quote short pieces out of context and then attack
them as straw men. It's easier for you that way, however unsound and
fallacious it is.


>
> > And would you agree that impious people are not normally meant to be
> > Bishops whose offices would be established on impiety, for example, on
> > the divorce of a marriage about which the Lord Jesus Christ has
taught,
> > "He who divorces his wife causes her to commit adultery"? And he who
> > thereafter marries again commits adultery too? What sort of example is
> > this to the flock and to the world in an age when untold suffering
comes
> > from divorce and broken families?
>
> JRS: Translation: Does the Church permit divorce?
>
> Answer: Yes, under specific circumstances.
>
> >  Would you
> > like to ask God to make it Nine Commands instead of Ten, and
revise the
> > Holy Scriptures so that Patriarch Alexei II does not have to step
down?
>
> JRS: The Scriptures do not call on Christian clergy to "step down".


They also do not say that a person ought to go on serving in a state
of unrepentant sin, do they?  Isn't it true that one of the fathers
wrote that we will not be condemned for our sin, but for giving up on
repentance? Would you say that abuse of power that damages the church
is a sin?  Is rendering to a government what belongs to God a sin? And
if so, the repentance for abusing power is giving it up, just as the
repentance for alcoholism is giving up alcohol.


>
> > Maybe you think I'm talking about the adultery impliedly caused by
> > Reidiger's divorce if his ex-wife remarried ...
>
> JRS: The divorce was initiated by his wife of a few hours, who had
> deserted him
> immediately after the wedding.
>
> Consequently, he cannot be blamed for it.


Interesting that you should focus on that and defend it, since I
pointed out which adultery (Reidiger/Alexei II/Drozdov's spiritual
adultery with the atheist state) I was referring to.  Maybe the woman
who ran from the altar was informed that she had to by her husband's
KGB groomers? But I noticed you omitted that and sidestepped the
inconvenient situation that you have been defending. Even so, if you
are talking about Reidiger's divorce, it is odd that you would have
the detailed personal circumstances of that remote event from
Soviet-filtered history, and so well-memorized.  MP talking points do
get around.


> > You imply that a shortage of Bishops means a necessary scarcity of the
> > Holy Mysteries.  However, are not a large number of priests able to be
> > equipped by even a few Bishops to prepare and feed the flock
throughout
> > the world with the Holy Mysteries?
>
> JRS: There still must be bishops in order for there to be priests,
and there must be priests
> for the Holy Mysteries to be available.


Right.  And there are Bishops, and enough to ordain priests.  And by
ordaining them, there will be enough priests to make the Holy
Mysteries available. It is not the problem you make of it, however, it
serves the MP for you to argue it, and so you argue it dutifully.

Maybe you want MP Bishops to move in and help the ROCOR with its
Bishop shortage?


> There are about 150 MP bishops, as opposed to many thousands of
priests.
>
> But you did not complain of the "large number" of bishops. You said
that it was wrong to
> become a bishop in the USSR.

Not all Bishops have been agents run by the KGB or FSB as Patriarch
Alexei II and other top MP officials were / are.  I suppose that is a
case by case situation to be dealt with by the Russian Church, it
people and parishes. Russian citizens can help figure out who is and
who isn't a former agent.  A truly pro-Russian government that
releases all of the old Committee for State Security records would
help too. But they are still concealed, because they speak of
officials currently in power in the MP and RF. Who else might they
speak of Fr. John?

Being an agent was one thing, simply cooperating with bureaucratic
impositions, another.  It seems that the Lord would expect the Church
to do her best in these matters, realizing that at least 1/12 may be a
traitor to her. Fortunately, even those can repent, if they would.


> That would have applied to any bishop.


Not necessarily, see above.


> In Christ
> Fr. John R. Shaw
>

Michael

See the article here:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061008/wl_afp/russiacrimemediachechnya_06100813393\
7

She was the third reporter for Novaya Gazeta murdered under contract.
Novaya Gazeta has been the most critical of Putin's administration of
government, and its articles have established ties between the FSB and
Moscow Patriarchate.

She was the 12th journalist killed in a contract murder since the rise
of Vladimir Putin's administration. She was the 42nd Russian reporter
killed in Russia since the structural USSR broke apart.

The representation of the spiritual father of Vladimir Putin to our
hierarchs was that he was a genuine Orthodox Christian believer.
Patriarch Alexei II has honored him and supported him, sometimes in
effusive terms. Where does the buttering of his bread end?

This is the same president who came to New York and sought our
hierarchs'help with uniting Russia by uniting the Russian Church. This
is the same KGB Lt. Col. over East Germany under whose watch hundreds
of people perished trying to escape E. Germany.

Father John Shaw, and Father Alexander Lebedeff, are you going to tell
us that the spiritual renewal in Russia is led by Patriarch Alexei II
(Drozdov) and his clergy member who vouched for President Putin's
genuineness and trustworthiness in this ongoing Anschluss to victimize
the ROCOR for a political agenda?

These are the people who Archbishop Mark in Berlin has been telling
you to trust?

And all that reasonable people from parishes throughout the ROCOR have
been asking is, "Gee, didn't that happen too quickly?" And, "Couldn't
we wait until the MP is clean?"

Only deceit and pride at high levels would keep our hierarchs in the
ROCOR from revoking their decision to lift the communion suspension at
this time, and be assured, those efforts are happening as we speak.

Will our hierarchs turn and deal the enemy a blow for the people of
Russia?  Or will they lend their imprimatur of legitimacy to this
Putin/Alexei II regime, with all evidence and ROCA history warning
against it, and put the Russian people in the hands of that spirit of
Sovietism -- of centralized power -- that taints the spiritual nation
that Russia was prophesied to become.  What, could we not wait? Have
we fallen asleep to prophecy and awakened to earthly overtures?

For those who have eyes, Rev. Fr. Stephan, consider:

Moscow writer's peers skeptical of probe

By JUDITH INGRAM, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 35 minutes ago

MOSCOW - Russia has become a deadly place for journalists who run
afoul of government officials or their business and political partners.

Those behind the killings, though, are rarely brought to justice,
reinforcing a sense of impunity that may have encouraged the killers
of Anna Politkovskaya, a fierce critic of the war in
Chechnya.

As the
European Union and the U.S. demanded a thorough probe into Saturday's
contract-style killing, there was skepticism that the authorities
would ever uncover the culprits of the latest in a series of killings
of journalists in Russia under President
Vladimir Putin, who has been increasingly accused of rolling back
post-Soviet freedoms since coming to power in 2000.

The skepticism was underlined by the $929,700 reward for information
that Novaya Gazeta has offered, signaling stronger faith in their own
investigative efforts than those promised by the government, which has
produced so few prosecutions before.

"Russia is a uniquely hostile place for the execution of independent
journalism. It is both violent and repressive," said Joel Simon,
executive director of the New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists.

Politkovskaya's editors said she had been due to publish an
investigative article on Monday about torture and kidnappings in
Chechnya based on witness accounts and photos of tortured bodies.

She was at least the 43rd journalist killed for her work in Russia
since 1993, according to CPJ, which has ranked Russia the third most
deadly country for journalists, after
Iraq and Algeria. Many were killed while reporting on the two wars in
Chechnya, and six were caught up in fighting between government and
opposition forces in Moscow in 1993.

Many more appear to have been targeted because of their attempts to
dig into allegations of corruption. The killers have rarely been found.

Dmitry Kholodov, a reporter who investigated military corruption, was
killed in October 1994 when a briefcase he had picked up at a Moscow
train station following an anonymous call blew up in his office.
Colleagues said he had been told it contained evidence.

Six men charged in the killing, including four former members of an
elite paratroops unit, were acquitted in two separate trials, in 2002
and 2004; the Russian Supreme Court upheld those rulings in June 2005.

Natalya Skryl, a business reporter for Nashe Vremya in Rostov-on-Don,
was beaten over the head in March 2002 and died the next day.
Colleagues said she had been investigating a dispute over control of a
metals plant, and that was the most probable reason for her murder.

Investigators initially excluded robbery as a motive in the killing —
because she had jewelry and a large sum of cash on her when she was
found — but later ruled the opposite, according to CPJ.

"It is extremely important to break the circle of inconclusive
investigations in regard of the recent murders of journalists in
Russia," said Miklos Haraszti, the media freedom advocate of the
Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. "The violent
death of any member of the media stifles the free spirit of
journalism. But in this case, the expediency of action is extremely
important also because Anna Politkovskaya was an outspoken critic of
government policies."

Suspicion in the killing of Politkovskaya, whose body was found in the
elevator in her apartment building on Saturday, has fallen on the
Moscow-backed Chechen strongman Ramzan Kadyrov. Politkovskaya, one of
the few Russian journalists writing about widespread human rights
abuses in Chechnya, had been a persistent critic of Kadyrov, whose
security forces are alleged to be involved in widespread abductions
and torture.

Novaya Gazeta said on its Web site it believed her murder was either
revenge by Kadyrov or an attempt to discredit him.

In a recent radio interview, Politkovskaya said she was a witness in a
criminal case against Kadyrov concerning his alleged involvement in
the kidnapping of two civilians — an ethnic Russian and a Chechen —
who were tortured and killed.

Politkovskaya also angered other powerful people — including the
Russian military — with her investigative reporting and human rights
advocacy.

Novaya Gazeta said Sunday its reporters would conduct their own
investigation, and it called Politkovskaya's slaying revenge for her
coverage of Chechnya, which included the story planned for Monday.

"We never got the article, but she had evidence about these (abducted)
people and there were photographs," Deputy Editor Vitaly Yerushensky,
told Ekho Moskvy radio.

Politkovskaya's death was the most high-profile slaying of a
journalist in Russia since the July 2004 assassination of Paul
Klebnikov, the U.S.-born editor of the Russian edition of Forbes
magazine. That crime was believed linked to Klebnikov's investigation
of the murky business world in Russia but remains unresolved; two
ethnic Chechens accused of carrying it out were acquitted earlier this
year.

Dozens of well-wishers came to lay flowers outside the entrance to
Politkovskaya's apartment block in downtown Moscow on Sunday and
placed flowers and candles outside the newspaper offices.

Hundreds meanwhile rallied in Moscow's Pushkin Square to protest her
murder as well as the Russian crackdown on Georgians since a spy row
erupted last week.

Underneath a photograph of Politkovskaya, one poster read: "The
Kremlin has killed freedom of speech."


--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
<StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
>
> Why do you ignore Saint John's own account of what he did and why he
> did it. He gave a report on his actions in China and they are a
> matter of record. Other peoples spin on his actions and motives are
> just that, spin...he explained himself quite clearly.
> Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
> <nikitinmike@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Fr.John wrote:
> > JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always
> commemorated the Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.
> >
> > MN: Fr. John, you are mixing St. John Maximovitch with yourself.
> >     St. John already took a stand against MP in China.
> >
> > Please read below:
> >
> > http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiology/shahovskoy-
> confirmation.html
> >
> > EDICT OF HIS PATRIARCHAL HOLINESS
> >
> > Of Moscow And All Russia
> >
> > to his Grace the Archbishop of Peking and China VICTOR
> >
> > TAKEN UNDER CONSIDERATION:
> >
> > The status of Church affairs in the Chinese Spiritual
> > Mission according to reports received from his Grace
> > the Archbishop of China VICTOR and his Grace the
> > Metropolitan of Harbin NESTOR.
> >
> > Journal number 15 assigned by the Holy Synod on June
> > 12, 1946.
> >
> > IT IS DECREED:
> >
> > 1. That in accordance with the request of his Grace
> > Archbishop Victor that Bishop Juvenal (formerly of
> > Qiqihar) be appointed at the discretion of Archbishop
> > Victor as the replacement for the cathedra of the
> > Archbishop of Shanghai John, who does not recognize
> > the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate.
> >
> > 2. To propose to his Grace Metropolitan Nestor that at
> > the discretion of Archbishop Victor and in accordance
> > with his request a sufficient number of priests be
> > transferred from the East Asian Exarchate to Shanghai
> > to replace those priests who have not recognized the
> > jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, specifically
> > – if they so agree – Archimandrites Philaret,** Joseph
> > and Benjamin, Archpriests Rostislav Gan and Simeon
> > Novosiltsev and Deacon Gorelkin, advocated by his
> > Grace Archbishop Victor. To inform Metropolitan
> > Nestor, Archbishop Victor and Bishop Juvenal of this
> > decree.
> >
> > ALEKSEY, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia
> >
> > Protopresbyter N. KOLCHITSKY, Chancellor of the Moscow
> > Patriarchate
> > 13 June, 1946
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@>
> wrote:                                  --- In orthodox-
> synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@>
> >  wrote:
> >
> >  > Who would replace the Bishops?  How about those who meet the
> >  > qualifications as set forth in the Holy Scripture?  How about
> >  > spiritual men whose motivation in to serve in the free Church of
> >  > Christ?  In all of our disagreements, we have not disagreed
> that there
> >  > are such pious people among the Russians.
> >
> >  JRS: First of all, not all pious people are meant to be bishops.
> >
> >  Perhaps you recall that St. Sergius of Radonezh declined to be
> made a bishop, and said,
> >  "Pache mery moeja est delo sije"?
> >
> >  And if new bishops were so easy to find, why have we long had
> such difficulty finding
> >  them in ROCOR?
> >
> >  Currently we have no bishops in South America, where there used
> to be several dioceses;
> >
> >  no bishops in Canada, where there used to be two;
> >
> >  no Bishop (or Archbishop) of Washington and Florida, and that was
> the next most
> >  important See after the Metropolitan;
> >
> >  no bishop in England;
> >
> >  no bishop in Austria;
> >
> >  no Bishop of Seattle,
> >
> >  no Bishop of Boston;
> >
> >  no bishop of Los Angeles.
> >
> >  Why?
> >
> >  > Repentance is action, not words alone. It involves stepping
> down.
> >
> >  JRS: You still have not provided any serious alternative to
> ordinations that took place from
> >  1917 to 1991.
> >
> >  Do you think the Church should get by without clergy?
> >
> >  Without the Eucharist, without Chrism, without Holy Matrimony?
> >
> >  > If our SOBOR prayed at the tomb of St. John of Shanghai and SF
> for
> >  > guidance in 2006, would they not change their mind ...
> >
> >  JRS: In fact, they (we) did indeed pray at his tomb.
> >
> >  > if they refocused
> >  > on the fact that St. John Maximovitch ... wrote that repentance
> for Moscow
> >  > Patriarchate officials would take the form of stepping down from
> >  > office ...
> >
> >  JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always
> commemorated the
> >  Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.
> >
> >  In Christ
> >  Fr. John R. Shaw
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Want to be your own boss? Learn how on  Yahoo! Small Business.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

In a message dated 10/7/2006 3:01:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
nikitinmike@... writes:

Frs.  Stefan Pavlenko and John Shaw,
is the document below from Patr.Alexey II  deceitful and a lie?

Michael N




You know, Michael, in addition to beating a dead horse until you're blue in
the face, you are also somewhat ignorant of the facts.  The document is  dated
1946.  Patriarch Aleksej II was not even thinking about patriarching  at that
time.  Surely this was his predecessor?

Love in Christ, but enough already,

Vova H.





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