This makes me wonder if it was always the practice to cover the face of
hierarches, clergy, monastics?  Does anyone know if this was not always the case
and when it became a practice?  As of late, I've noticed that in non-ROCOR
funerals there seems to be an increase at clergy funerals of leaving the face
uncovered.  As I recall even Bishop Job's (OCA) face was uncovered.  Can anyone
offer some insight on this practice?  Thanks.

Valeria

--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Simon, Steven" <ssimon@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Mike,
> The pre-Nikonian Great Potrebnik in which we found the service for the funeral
of a hierarch made no mention of covering the bishop's face. However, we knew
that this is the normal practice. At first we covered his face when we brought
him into the church. But then many parishioners pleaded for us to let his face
be uncovered during the funeral. Fr. Theodore, our assistant priest, asked the
presiding hierarch, Bishop George,  if he had any strong objections to that
being done, and he told Fr. Theodore, that if that is what was the desire, he
had no objections. After the absolution prayer, the klobuk with its veil was
placed over Vladika Daniel's face and he was carried out of the church and
remained in that form at the cemetery until the anointing oil was poured over
him and the shroud covered him. Then the lid of the coffin was placed onto the
coffin.
> Fr. Pimen Simon
>
> From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of morechoff@...
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 2:56 PM
> To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [orthodox-rocor] Bishop Daniels Funeral
>
>
>
> Bishop Daniel's face was not covered during the funeral. Is that an Old
Believer's tradition? Normally, I see the Bishop's face covered.
>
> Mike Orechoff
> CA
>

***mA little over a year ago, our rector emeritus, Archpriest Stephen Dutko,
fell asleep in the Lord. His face was uncovered until just before the casket was
to be closed. His son, Archpriest James Dutko, covered his dad's face with a
goledn-colored cloth that looked a little like a small Aer. The casket was
closed and taken to the cemetery.

Al



--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "sajezv" <sajezv@...> wrote:
>
> This makes me wonder if it was always the practice to cover the face of
hierarches, clergy, monastics?  Does anyone know if this was not always the case
and when it became a practice?  As of late, I've noticed that in non-ROCOR
funerals there seems to be an increase at clergy funerals of leaving the face
uncovered.  As I recall even Bishop Job's (OCA) face was uncovered.  Can anyone
offer some insight on this practice?  Thanks.
>
> Valeria
>
> --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Simon, Steven" <ssimon@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Mike,
> > The pre-Nikonian Great Potrebnik in which we found the service for the
funeral of a hierarch made no mention of covering the bishop's face. However, we
knew that this is the normal practice. At first we covered his face when we
brought him into the church. But then many parishioners pleaded for us to let
his face be uncovered during the funeral. Fr. Theodore, our assistant priest,
asked the presiding hierarch, Bishop George,  if he had any strong objections to
that being done, and he told Fr. Theodore, that if that is what was the desire,
he had no objections. After the absolution prayer, the klobuk with its veil was
placed over Vladika Daniel's face and he was carried out of the church and
remained in that form at the cemetery until the anointing oil was poured over
him and the shroud covered him. Then the lid of the coffin was placed onto the
coffin.
> > Fr. Pimen Simon
> >
> > From: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of morechoff@
> > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 2:56 PM
> > To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [orthodox-rocor] Bishop Daniels Funeral
> >
> >
> >
> > Bishop Daniel's face was not covered during the funeral. Is that an Old
Believer's tradition? Normally, I see the Bishop's face covered.
> >
> > Mike Orechoff
> > CA
> >
>

--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, <emrys@...> wrote:
>
> The Salvation of Francis of Assisi
>
> Francis of Assisi is popular for his virtues and is thought of highly by many
people in the Orthodox Church. It's not possible, of course, to contemplate
including him in divine services of the Orthodox Church, because he belonged to
a Christian denomination with teachings which differed and deviated from the
Truth of Holy Orthodoxy. That does not mean that we Orthodox judge him or anyone
else.


***Exception: New Skete near Albany, NY, is a Franciscan monastery of monks and
nuns in the Orthodox Church of America. Formerly eastern rite Roman Catholic,
the order has been allowed to keep its Franciscan identity and to honor the
Roman Catholic saint. This same "order" also has icons of Dorothy Day (devout
R.C. and co-founder of the communist Catholic Worker Movement) and the
Archbishop of Canterbury prominently displayed. Yuk!

Al

***I didn't make clear that New Skete is in the Orthodox Church in America
(OCA).

Al



--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Al" <aggreen1@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, <emrys@> wrote:
> >
> > The Salvation of Francis of Assisi
> >
> > Francis of Assisi is popular for his virtues and is thought of highly by
many people in the Orthodox Church. It's not possible, of course, to contemplate
including him in divine services of the Orthodox Church, because he belonged to
a Christian denomination with teachings which differed and deviated from the
Truth of Holy Orthodoxy. That does not mean that we Orthodox judge him or anyone
else.
>
>
> ***Exception: New Skete near Albany, NY, is a Franciscan monastery of monks
and nuns in the Orthodox Church of America. Formerly eastern rite Roman
Catholic, the order has been allowed to keep its Franciscan identity and to
honor the Roman Catholic saint. This same "order" also has icons of Dorothy Day
(devout R.C. and co-founder of the communist Catholic Worker Movement) and the
Archbishop of Canterbury prominently displayed. Yuk!
>
> Al
>

**Not to be judgemental or anything like that. However Francis of Assisi whom
lived a life a monk in I guess the best manner he knew. I would doubt he was
fully aware of all the issues that Rome had done to seperate herself from the
True Church. However by many protestants view he did stop the protestant
reformation by say 150 years in his regard to bringing the Scriptures back. In
this I give credit to western writers like CS Lewis & GK Chesterton as well. The
west once it began its exodus from the True Church had those like Assisi who saw
something wasn't right. In this we have modern day folks like Abbot Guette of
France who converted as he learned of the errors in the Fathers by Rome when he
was researching the history of the Church in France prior to Vatican1. We also
have the late Fr.Seraphim Rose who researched western Saints prior to the
schism.**
**I give Francis credit again for doing what he knew best as well Rome at his
time had not gotten to Vatican1 or 2 both which destroyed much of any vestige of
Orthodoxy in the Roman church.
In Christ
Xenos Mann


--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, <emrys@...> wrote:
>
> The Salvation of Francis of Assisi
>
> Francis of Assisi is popular for his virtues and is thought of highly by many
people in the Orthodox Church. It's not possible, of course, to contemplate
including him in divine services of the Orthodox Church, because he belonged to
a Christian denomination with teachings which differed and deviated from the
Truth of Holy Orthodoxy. That does not mean that we Orthodox judge him or anyone
else.
>
> Many people are unaware of the Miracle of Francis of Assisi which has led many
into the saving fold of the Holy Orthodox Church. This occurred, if I recall, in
the 1930s or 1940s, but I can't determine the name of the author or the date of
the incidents described.
>
> Here is the story as written:
>
> "A friend of mine sent me a letter in French, in which an Alsatian woman asked
him to send her something about the Russian Orthodox Church: a book of prayers
or something similar. They sent something to her in response, and there the
matter ended.
>
> "Afterwards I was in Alsace (a place in France) and visited that woman to get
acquainted, but just then she was out of town. I met her mother-in-law, an
elderly woman of great Christian mercy and with a pure heart.
>
> "She told me the following. Their family was of an ancient noble Alsatian
lineage, of the Protestant faith. It must be said, that in that region of Alsace
the inhabitants are divided in belief: half Catholic, half Protestant. They
share a common church, where they hold services in turn. At the back of it
stands the Roman altar, with all the statues and necessary things, but when the
Protestants serve, they draw a curtain in front of it, roll their table into the
center and pray.
>
> "Recently, the Alsatian Protestants began a movement in favor of reverencing
saints. That happened after reading the book of Sabbatier about the Catholic
saint Francis of Assisi. Being a Protestant himself, he was impressed by the way
of life of that righteous man when visiting Assisi. My friends family was also
under the influence of that book. Though remaining Protestants, they still felt
dissatisfaction. They wished to reverence saints and take part in the
Sacraments. When the pastor taught them, they asked him not to close the curtain
on the Catholic altar, so that they could at least see the statues of the
saints. Their thoughts were seeking the True Church.
>
> "And so once, that young woman, being sick, was sitting in the garden and
reading about the life of Francis of Assisi. The garden was all in bloom. There
was country silence... Reading, she fell lightly asleep. 'I don't know how it
happened, she said afterwards. Francis himself approached me, together with a
glowing hunched-over elderly man, like a Patriarch. He was all in white. I
became frightened. But Francis came very close to me and said: 'My daughter! You
are looking for the True Church, it is there, where he is. It supports
everything, but doesn't ask anyone for support.'
>
> "The white elderly man kept silent and only smiled affirmatively at Francis'
words. The vision ended. She woke up. And for some reason her thought told her:
'This is connected to the Russian Church.' And peace descended on her soul.
>
> "It was after that vision that she wrote the letter, mentioned at the
beginning of this story. In two months I again visited them, and that time she
herself told me the following. They hired a Russian worker. Wanting to know if
he was well-situated, the hostess came into his room and saw an icon in the
corner, on the wall, and she recognized the same elder, that she had seen in the
vision with Francis. Astonished and frightened, she asked: 'Who is he, this
elder? "This is St. Seraphim, our Orthodox saint, the worker said. And only then
she realized the meaning of St. Francis' words that the truth is in the Orthodox
Church."
>
> - from a Serbian Orthodox website
http://www.serbianorthodoxchristian.com/WhoIsThatElder.html and also found on
www.fatheralexander.org (a wonderful resource!)
>
> (thanks to Hieromonk Fr Aidan who posted this account on Occidentalis.  It
seems to me to be a blessing that when Catholics ask us how we see Francis we
can offer them something positive from within our tradition.)
>

Dear Friends,

CHRIST IS RISEN!

I've posted some of this before, and thus beg your indulgence, but I'd like to
again remind everyone that two of ROCOR's diocesan music committees are offering
brief conferences on various aspects of liturgical music in the coming month. 
PLEASE share this inormation with your choir directors and singing friends.



The Eastern American Diocese Music Committee presents "Sing Ye With
Understanding!" -- an interactive seminar featuring hands-on vocal and
conducting workshops and additional discussions and presentations, FRIDAY MAY 28
- SATURDAY MAY 29 in Washington D.C. at the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist.

The Liturgical Music Committee of the Diocese of Chicago and Mid-America
presents "And Who Sing the Thrice-Holy Hymn: Delivering the Heavenly Word
Through the Choir" -- a conference featuring a range of lectures and workshops
and culminating in divine services, FRIDAY JUNE 4 - SUNDAY JUNE 6 in Chicago, IL
at the Holy Virgin Protection Cathedral (Des Plaines).


Please see http://www.eadiocese.org/conf/music.en.htm   and
http://chicagochoirseminar.org/  for more information.

Both conferences are promising to be memorable and enlightening, and
I hope to see some of you in either great city, or perhaps both! If you're
interested, please act soon, as registration deadlines are approaching and
available spaces are filling up.

In the risen Christ's love,

Elizabeth A. Ledkovsky
Chairwoman - EADMC (ROCOR)

***I characterized Dorothy Day factually. To which are you referring, "devout
roman Catholic" or co-founder of the "communist Catholic Worker Movement"? Or
did I call Ms. Day something else?

Al

--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, volotsky@... wrote:
>
>
> Christ is Risen!
>
> Was it really necessary to call names at the late Dorothy Day?
>
> Priest Yousuf Rasam
> St. Innocent Orthodox Church
> OCA diocese of the West
> Tarzana CA
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Al <aggreen1@...>
> To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 12:14 pm
> Subject: [orthodox-rocor] Re: The Salvation of Francis of Assisi
>
>
>
> --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, <emrys@> wrote:
>
>  The Salvation of Francis of Assisi
>
>  Francis of Assisi is popular for his virtues and is thought of highly by many
> eople in the Orthodox Church. It's not possible, of course, to contemplate
> ncluding him in divine services of the Orthodox Church, because he belonged to
>  Christian denomination with teachings which differed and deviated from the
> ruth of Holy Orthodoxy. That does not mean that we Orthodox judge him or
anyone
> lse.
>
> **Exception: New Skete near Albany, NY, is a Franciscan monastery of monks and
> uns in the Orthodox Church of America. Formerly eastern rite Roman Catholic,
> he order has been allowed to keep its Franciscan identity and to honor the
> oman Catholic saint. This same "order" also has icons of Dorothy Day (devout
> .C. and co-founder of the communist Catholic Worker Movement) and the
> rchbishop of Canterbury prominently displayed. Yuk!
> Al
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------
> Posts to this list need to be signed with your full (and real) name.
> ahoo! Groups Links
>    Individual Email | Traditional
>    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

***Maybe the New Skete digression was not necessary, but to a whole lot of very
traditional Orthodox Christians in and out of the OCA, New Skete is an anomaly
and an embarrassment. (They DO make delicious cheescake!!!)

Al



--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, volotsky@... wrote:
>
>
>
> Excuse me, Father, how was this name-calling?  She *was* a "devout" RC, and
the Catholic Worker Movement *was* a Communist front (still is, for all I know)
-- we were very specifically warned about it in my Catholic-school days,
>
> Dear Meg,
>
> Christ is Risen!
>
> Yes, I think calling someone a communist, (on a ROCOR list, no less!) when the
person in question did not openly adhere to Marxism is name calling.
>
> And my question was "Was it neccessary?"  That was rhetorical.  It was plainly
not.  The whole New Skete digression wasn't.
>
>
> Priest Yousuf Rassam
> St. Innocent of Irkutsk Orthodox Church
> Diocese of the West, OCA
> Tarzana, CA
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Meg Lark <woolfolk3@...>
> To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, May 8, 2010 11:55 am
> Subject: Re: [orthodox-rocor] Re: The Salvation of Francis of Assisi
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 1:13 PM, <volotsky@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Christ is Risen!
>
> Was it really necessary to call names at the late Dorothy Day?
>
> Priest Yousuf Rasam
> St. Innocent Orthodox Church
> OCA diocese of the West
> Tarzana CA
>
> Christ is Risen!
>
> Was it really necessary to call names at the late Dorothy Day?
>
> Priest Yousuf Rasam
> St. Innocent Orthodox Church
> OCA diocese of the West
> Tarzana CA
>
>
>
>
>
> Excuse me, Father, how was this name-calling?  She *was* a "devout" RC, and
the Catholic Worker Movement *was* a Communist front (still is, for all I know)
-- we were very specifically warned about it in my Catholic-school days, in the
days before "liberation theology" became such an integral part of
post-Vatican-II Catholicism.  Incidentally, the Catholic May 1 celebration of
"St. Joseph the Worker" came into being to counteract the Communist May 1
International Workers Day; these days, it seems to be celebrated more as an
extension of International Workers Day, which I find telling.
>
> I think that Mr. Green and I are of the same generation, so his comment
concerning the *Catholic Worker Movement* -- not Ms. Day herself -- does not
surprise me.
>
> Kissing your right hand,
> Meg Lark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Al <aggreen1@...>
> To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 12:14 pm
> Subject: [orthodox-rocor] Re: The Salvation of Francis of Assisi
>
>
>
> --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, <emrys@> wrote:
>
>  The Salvation of Francis of Assisi
>
>  Francis of Assisi is popular for his virtues and is thought of highly by many
> eople in the Orthodox Church. It's not possible, of course, to contemplate
> ncluding him in divine services of the Orthodox Church, because he belonged to
>  Christian denomination with teachings which differed and deviated from the
> ruth of Holy Orthodoxy. That does not mean that we Orthodox judge him or
anyone
> lse.
>
> **Exception: New Skete near Albany, NY, is a Franciscan monastery of monks and
> uns in the Orthodox Church of America. Formerly eastern rite Roman Catholic,
> he order has been allowed to keep its Franciscan identity and to honor the
> oman Catholic saint. This same "order" also has icons of Dorothy Day (devout
> .C. and co-founder of the communist Catholic Worker Movement) and the
> rchbishop of Canterbury prominently displayed. Yuk!
> Al
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Al <aggreen1@...>
> To: orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 12:14 pm
> Subject: [orthodox-rocor] Re: The Salvation of Francis of Assisi
>
>
>
> --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, <emrys@> wrote:
>
>  The Salvation of Francis of Assisi
>
>  Francis of Assisi is popular for his virtues and is thought of highly by many
> eople in the Orthodox Church. It's not possible, of course, to contemplate
> ncluding him in divine services of the Orthodox Church, because he belonged to
>  Christian denomination with teachings which differed and deviated from the
> ruth of Holy Orthodoxy. That does not mean that we Orthodox judge him or
anyone
> lse.
>
> **Exception: New Skete near Albany, NY, is a Franciscan monastery of monks and
> uns in the Orthodox Church of America. Formerly eastern rite Roman Catholic,
> he order has been allowed to keep its Franciscan identity and to honor the
> oman Catholic saint. This same "order" also has icons of Dorothy Day (devout
> .C. and co-founder of the communist Catholic Worker Movement) and the
> rchbishop of Canterbury prominently displayed. Yuk!
> Al
>

***I have a picture of Michael Dahulich, who grew up in St. Michael the
Archangel Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in Binghamton, NY,
taken on his wedding day before ordination to the priesthood. Two weeks after
the wedding the couple were involved in a horrendous automobile accident. The
wife, Deborah, was killed instantly; Michael was hospitalized with critical
injuries for more than three months. As bishop, God grant him many years. --Al


http://www.oca.org/news/2147

Archimandrite Michael consecrated as Bishop of New York and New Jersey

Posted 05/08

JERSEY CITY, NJ [OCA] -- On Saturday, May 8, 2010, Archimandrite Michael
[Dahulich] was consecrated as Bishop of New York and New Jersey at Saints Peter
and Paul Church here.

Presiding at the consecration Divine Liturgy was His Beatitude, Metropolitan
Jonah, and other members of the Holy Synod of Bishops.

On the evening of May 7, Great Vespers with Bishop-elect Michael's formal
Nomination was celebrated.

Over 600 attended Saturday's consecration banquet.

On Sunday, Bishop Michael will celebrate the Divine Liturgy at Holy Virgin
Protection Cathedral, 59 East Second Street, New York, NY at
9:30 a.m.

Additional information and photographs will be posted as they become available.

May God grant Bishop Michael many years of fruitful archpastoral ministry!

Christ is Risen!

You suggested that when Catholics ask us how we see Francis we can offer them
something positive from within our tradition.  Maybe I am over-analyzing the
story, but doesn't it seem rather circumspect about the person of Francis
himself?  The positive element centers strongly around St. Seraphim and the
Orthodox Church.  Just a thought.

In XC,

David Bronson

--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, <emrys@...> wrote:
>
> The Salvation of Francis of Assisi
>
> Francis of Assisi is popular for his virtues and is thought of highly by many
people in the Orthodox Church. It's not possible, of course, to contemplate
including him in divine services of the Orthodox Church, because he belonged to
a Christian denomination with teachings which differed and deviated from the
Truth of Holy Orthodoxy. That does not mean that we Orthodox judge him or anyone
else.
>
> Many people are unaware of the Miracle of Francis of Assisi which has led many
into the saving fold of the Holy Orthodox Church. This occurred, if I recall, in
the 1930s or 1940s, but I can't determine the name of the author or the date of
the incidents described.
>
> Here is the story as written:
>
> "A friend of mine sent me a letter in French, in which an Alsatian woman asked
him to send her something about the Russian Orthodox Church: a book of prayers
or something similar. They sent something to her in response, and there the
matter ended.
>
> "Afterwards I was in Alsace (a place in France) and visited that woman to get
acquainted, but just then she was out of town. I met her mother-in-law, an
elderly woman of great Christian mercy and with a pure heart.
>
> "She told me the following. Their family was of an ancient noble Alsatian
lineage, of the Protestant faith. It must be said, that in that region of Alsace
the inhabitants are divided in belief: half Catholic, half Protestant. They
share a common church, where they hold services in turn. At the back of it
stands the Roman altar, with all the statues and necessary things, but when the
Protestants serve, they draw a curtain in front of it, roll their table into the
center and pray.
>
> "Recently, the Alsatian Protestants began a movement in favor of reverencing
saints. That happened after reading the book of Sabbatier about the Catholic
saint Francis of Assisi. Being a Protestant himself, he was impressed by the way
of life of that righteous man when visiting Assisi. My friends family was also
under the influence of that book. Though remaining Protestants, they still felt
dissatisfaction. They wished to reverence saints and take part in the
Sacraments. When the pastor taught them, they asked him not to close the curtain
on the Catholic altar, so that they could at least see the statues of the
saints. Their thoughts were seeking the True Church.
>
> "And so once, that young woman, being sick, was sitting in the garden and
reading about the life of Francis of Assisi. The garden was all in bloom. There
was country silence... Reading, she fell lightly asleep. 'I don't know how it
happened, she said afterwards. Francis himself approached me, together with a
glowing hunched-over elderly man, like a Patriarch. He was all in white. I
became frightened. But Francis came very close to me and said: 'My daughter! You
are looking for the True Church, it is there, where he is. It supports
everything, but doesn't ask anyone for support.'
>
> "The white elderly man kept silent and only smiled affirmatively at Francis'
words. The vision ended. She woke up. And for some reason her thought told her:
'This is connected to the Russian Church.' And peace descended on her soul.
>
> "It was after that vision that she wrote the letter, mentioned at the
beginning of this story. In two months I again visited them, and that time she
herself told me the following. They hired a Russian worker. Wanting to know if
he was well-situated, the hostess came into his room and saw an icon in the
corner, on the wall, and she recognized the same elder, that she had seen in the
vision with Francis. Astonished and frightened, she asked: 'Who is he, this
elder? "This is St. Seraphim, our Orthodox saint, the worker said. And only then
she realized the meaning of St. Francis' words that the truth is in the Orthodox
Church."
>
> - from a Serbian Orthodox website
http://www.serbianorthodoxchristian.com/WhoIsThatElder.html and also found on
www.fatheralexander.org (a wonderful resource!)
>
> (thanks to Hieromonk Fr Aidan who posted this account on Occidentalis.  It
seems to me to be a blessing that when Catholics ask us how we see Francis we
can offer them something positive from within our tradition.)
>

The image presented of Francis as an active indicator from the afterlife of
the way into the holy Orthodox Church is a positive element in the way we
can assess him.  Catholics tend to sit up and take notice when they are
presented with this story.  They can be incredulous and they can of course
dismiss it as merely a doubtful dream but it has an impact all the same.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bronson" <bdmahand@...>


> Christ is Risen!
>
> You suggested that when Catholics ask us how we see Francis we can offer
> them something positive from within our tradition.  Maybe I am
> over-analyzing the story, but doesn't it seem rather circumspect about the
> person of Francis himself?  The positive element centers strongly around
> St. Seraphim and the Orthodox Church.  Just a thought.
>
> In XC,
>
> David Bronson
>
> --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, <emrys@...> wrote:
>>
>> The Salvation of Francis of Assisi
>>
>> Francis of Assisi is popular for his virtues and is thought of highly by
>> many people in the Orthodox Church. It's not possible, of course, to
>> contemplate including him in divine services of the Orthodox Church,
>> because he belonged to a Christian denomination with teachings which
>> differed and deviated from the Truth of Holy Orthodoxy. That does not
>> mean that we Orthodox judge him or anyone else.
>>
>> Many people are unaware of the Miracle of Francis of Assisi which has led
>> many into the saving fold of the Holy Orthodox Church. This occurred, if
>> I recall, in the 1930s or 1940s, but I can't determine the name of the
>> author or the date of the incidents described.
>>
>> Here is the story as written:
>>
>> "A friend of mine sent me a letter in French, in which an Alsatian woman
>> asked him to send her something about the Russian Orthodox Church: a book
>> of prayers or something similar. They sent something to her in response,
>> and there the matter ended.
>>
>> "Afterwards I was in Alsace (a place in France) and visited that woman to
>> get acquainted, but just then she was out of town. I met her
>> mother-in-law, an elderly woman of great Christian mercy and with a pure
>> heart.
>>
>> "She told me the following. Their family was of an ancient noble Alsatian
>> lineage, of the Protestant faith. It must be said, that in that region of
>> Alsace the inhabitants are divided in belief: half Catholic, half
>> Protestant. They share a common church, where they hold services in turn.
>> At the back of it stands the Roman altar, with all the statues and
>> necessary things, but when the Protestants serve, they draw a curtain in
>> front of it, roll their table into the center and pray.
>>
>> "Recently, the Alsatian Protestants began a movement in favor of
>> reverencing saints. That happened after reading the book of Sabbatier
>> about the Catholic saint Francis of Assisi. Being a Protestant himself,
>> he was impressed by the way of life of that righteous man when visiting
>> Assisi. My friends family was also under the influence of that book.
>> Though remaining Protestants, they still felt dissatisfaction. They
>> wished to reverence saints and take part in the Sacraments. When the
>> pastor taught them, they asked him not to close the curtain on the
>> Catholic altar, so that they could at least see the statues of the
>> saints. Their thoughts were seeking the True Church.
>>
>> "And so once, that young woman, being sick, was sitting in the garden and
>> reading about the life of Francis of Assisi. The garden was all in bloom.
>> There was country silence... Reading, she fell lightly asleep. 'I don't
>> know how it happened, she said afterwards. Francis himself approached me,
>> together with a glowing hunched-over elderly man, like a Patriarch. He
>> was all in white. I became frightened. But Francis came very close to me
>> and said: 'My daughter! You are looking for the True Church, it is there,
>> where he is. It supports everything, but doesn't ask anyone for support.'
>>
>> "The white elderly man kept silent and only smiled affirmatively at
>> Francis' words. The vision ended. She woke up. And for some reason her
>> thought told her: 'This is connected to the Russian Church.' And peace
>> descended on her soul.
>>
>> "It was after that vision that she wrote the letter, mentioned at the
>> beginning of this story. In two months I again visited them, and that
>> time she herself told me the following. They hired a Russian worker.
>> Wanting to know if he was well-situated, the hostess came into his room
>> and saw an icon in the corner, on the wall, and she recognized the same
>> elder, that she had seen in the vision with Francis. Astonished and
>> frightened, she asked: 'Who is he, this elder? "This is St. Seraphim, our
>> Orthodox saint, the worker said. And only then she realized the meaning
>> of St. Francis' words that the truth is in the Orthodox Church."
>>
>> - from a Serbian Orthodox website
>> http://www.serbianorthodoxchristian.com/WhoIsThatElder.html and also
>> found on www.fatheralexander.org (a wonderful resource!)
>>
>> (thanks to Hieromonk Fr Aidan who posted this account on Occidentalis.
>> It seems to me to be a blessing that when Catholics ask us how we see
>> Francis we can offer them something positive from within our tradition.)
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Posts to this list need to be signed with your full (and real) name.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, volotsky@... wrote:
>
>
> Christ is Risen!
>
> Was it really necessary to call names at the late Dorothy Day?
*Xenos* Well Dorothy Day was a communist. She renounced it I guess after a
revelation she claimed to have. However she is used in "Liberation theology"
that saw many liberal RCs engaged w/communist movements. Even the late Father
Malaki Martin of the RC church wrote of this in the book "The Jesuits" as well a
reason he left the Jesuits.**
**Its important not to engage the world to make all happy. That was Romes
mistake after Vatican2. How many groups did the late pope John Paul pray with?
How many were not even Christian? How much the agreements that Rome has
w/protestant groups are mush? After the agreement between the Lutherans & Rome I
know many devote RC's & Lutheran's who were peeved. Why? It meant that they
believed in nothing.**
**This is not mean. This is honest. I will never ever mention a Roman Catholic
Saint after the schism. I may pray for the Roman Catholics I know as well
respect good Roman Catholics like the late Mother Theresa but never in
veneration as we would St.Justin Popovich.**
**You ask why insult? I disagree. I would ask why compromise? If we are unhapy
w/Holy Orthodoxy & want a "Jericho movement" then we should leave & be honest.
In Christ
Xenos Mann

--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Al" <aggreen1@...> wrote:
>
> ***Exception: New Skete near Albany, NY, is a Franciscan monastery of monks
and nuns in the Orthodox Church of America. Formerly eastern rite Roman
Catholic, the order has been allowed to keep its Franciscan identity and to
honor the Roman Catholic saint. This same "order" also has icons of Dorothy Day
(devout R.C. and co-founder of the communist Catholic Worker Movement) and the
Archbishop of Canterbury prominently displayed. Yuk!
*Xenos* Well this should not happen. Frankly this is when we should tell or
protest to the Bishops to end this. I am not saying non-Orthodox Christians
don't have good points but frankly this is wrong.
In Christ
Xenos Mann

--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, <emrys@...> wrote:
>
> The image presented of Francis as an active indicator from the afterlife of
> the way into the holy Orthodox Church is a positive element in the way we
> can assess him.  Catholics tend to sit up and take notice when they are
> presented with this story.  They can be incredulous and they can of course
> dismiss it as merely a doubtful dream but it has an impact all the same.
*Xenos* Ok I am not in the bashing Francis of Assisi just to be "Super Orthodox"
as well  am already on board as believing he did what he knew in his life & time
as a monk. As well Rome was still not totally seperated from all Orthodoxy as we
see what Vatican 1 & 2 did to the last vestiges of Orthodoxy(although a bit may
still exist) in the RC church. That said, why not just present Holy Orthodoxy as
is? Sure I can & will say I learned greatly from CS Lewis on my way to
conversion to the Orthodox Church. I will say Mother Theresa was a way to look
at Christians as sincere people even when I was not anywhere near the Christian
Faith. However when I read Orthodox writers. As well even compare them to the RC
faith I grew up with as well protestants assertions of what they believe the
Christian faith is Orthodoxy doesn't need a RC or protestant guide. In fact the
straight answers, the historical guidelines, the purity of the Orthodox
Church(not the same as saying all the people in the Orthodox Church)shows this
indeed to be the True Katholic, Orthodox Church Christ gave.**
**In the past I have asserted should the pope of Rome want to become Orthodox he
can do as countless other RCs have done & convert. Francis didn't have the total
info of the Orthodoxy, that spares him much criticism that I would give to even
the late pope John Paul2 or the current pope Benedict. Frankly what Rome lost in
1054ad when she divorced herself from Holy Orthodoxy should be sought out. But
it speaks to how Francis himself may have dealt w/the same info Abbot Guette of
France had?
In Christ
Xenos Mann

"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth
corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:  (20)  But lay up for
yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and
where thieves do not break through nor steal:  (21)  For where your treasure is,
there will your heart be also." (Mat 6:19-21)

We are building a temple for one purpose only - the facilitate the laying up of
treasure in Heaven. The parish temple is a critical part of the life of the
parish.

If we do not pray together, frequently. with compunction and theological
correctness, we are nothing, no matter what else we think we are. All the
services, and especially, preeminently (but never alone, that is the only
service ever celebrated!) the celebration of Divine Liturgy and the partaking of
the "bread from Heaven" is the lifeblood of the parish family.

Our temple is important,and has been quite costly in terms of worldly
measurements. There have been many delays, difficulties, and problems that can
only be understood as part of the attacks of the spirits of the air. We are now
enduring another attack. Although human thieves stole our air conditioning units
in the dead of night yesterday, we must see the spiritual ramifications of this
act of defilement. The thieves defiled themselves by their breaking of God's
law, and may God have mercy on them, and lead them to amend their lives.

How will we react to this stunning setback? To answer correctly, we need only
remember why we are building the temple. It is for the salvation of our souls,
and as we are growing in holiness, the temple will be a place that will shine to
the community, and many others will be warmed by our light, and its light. We
are building the temple primarily to pray, and to preach the Gospel, by our
words and actions.

Let's do this! . We have Paschal Vespers tonight. EVERYONE who is able should
come to pray together. We will sing "Christ is risen", and "Let God arise", and
we will be changed in some invisible, holy way. We should gather as a people
tonight, to worship God, and to beseech His help.

There are practical concerns too, but they are much less important. We have
reported the theft to the police. Most likely it is drug related. The thieves
will trash the units and attempt to sell the copper. We may have another unit in
place today, with security measures. Our insurance may cover some of the cost,
but we have a high deductible. Our builder may have some insurance. The
additional security measures will come our of our pocket.

This is a time of extreme need for us, as a people, since we have no funds
available. Will we react to this setback as Christians do, or will we merely be
angry, or passively disappointed?

Perhaps someone reading this will wish to give us alms to help. I am certainly
hoping this is the case, and am reaching out to all our friends - those in the
community and those many hundreds of thousands (over a half million people last
year) who read our blog and website. We need monetary help.

We as a people must be worthy of this help, by doing everything to save our
souls, and therefore, having the capacity and ability to reach out to others,
and be a light that is set on a table in McKinney.

Paschal Vespers, tonight, in Dallas, 7:15 PM

Wed - Paschal Liturgy: 6 AM

Wed Vigil for the Annunciation 7 PM

Thu Annunciation Liturgy 8 AM

At this point, we still think we will be moving Thursday, and be in the new
temple this weekend.

http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/2010/05/11/where-thieves-break-through-and-\
steal-our-ac-has-been-stolen/

--
Priest Seraphim Holland 972 529-2754 C:972 658-5433
ST NICHOLAS ORTHODOX CHURCH:http://www.orthodox.net

2010 "SPONSOR A TREE" Pascha Appeal:
http://www.orthodox.net/aboutus/sponsor-a-tree-pascha-2010.html

PARISH EMAIL:http://groups.google.com/group/saint-nicholas-orthodox-church
BLOG:http://www.orthodox.net/redeemingthetime

I am very sorry to hear the news.

When we were in the process of buying our current property, the A/C unit was
stolen twice. Fortunately, for us, it happened before the deal was done, and it
did not cost us.  When we moved in, we put the unit in a cage, bolted to a
cement slab.  St. Vladimir's in Houston has had this happen a couple of times
too... and in Texas, A/C is not optional.  I would recommend you get a cage.  It
was not too expensive, and we have never had a problem since.

Let us know when you know how much this is going to cost.

-Fr. John Whiteford


--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Priest Seraphim Holland" <seraphim@...>
wrote:
>
> "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth
corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:  (20)  But lay up for
yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and
where thieves do not break through nor steal:  (21)  For where your treasure is,
there will your heart be also." (Mat 6:19-21)
>
> We are building a temple for one purpose only - the facilitate the laying up
of treasure in Heaven. The parish temple is a critical part of the life of the
parish.
>
> If we do not pray together, frequently. with compunction and theological
correctness, we are nothing, no matter what else we think we are. All the
services, and especially, preeminently (but never alone, that is the only
service ever celebrated!) the celebration of Divine Liturgy and the partaking of
the "bread from Heaven" is the lifeblood of the parish family.
>
> Our temple is important,and has been quite costly in terms of worldly
measurements. There have been many delays, difficulties, and problems that can
only be understood as part of the attacks of the spirits of the air. We are now
enduring another attack. Although human thieves stole our air conditioning units
in the dead of night yesterday, we must see the spiritual ramifications of this
act of defilement. The thieves defiled themselves by their breaking of God's
law, and may God have mercy on them, and lead them to amend their lives.
>
> How will we react to this stunning setback? To answer correctly, we need only
remember why we are building the temple. It is for the salvation of our souls,
and as we are growing in holiness, the temple will be a place that will shine to
the community, and many others will be warmed by our light, and its light. We
are building the temple primarily to pray, and to preach the Gospel, by our
words and actions.
>
> Let's do this! . We have Paschal Vespers tonight. EVERYONE who is able should
come to pray together. We will sing "Christ is risen", and "Let God arise", and
we will be changed in some invisible, holy way. We should gather as a people
tonight, to worship God, and to beseech His help.
>
> There are practical concerns too, but they are much less important. We have
reported the theft to the police. Most likely it is drug related. The thieves
will trash the units and attempt to sell the copper. We may have another unit in
place today, with security measures. Our insurance may cover some of the cost,
but we have a high deductible. Our builder may have some insurance. The
additional security measures will come our of our pocket.
>
> This is a time of extreme need for us, as a people, since we have no funds
available. Will we react to this setback as Christians do, or will we merely be
angry, or passively disappointed?
>
> Perhaps someone reading this will wish to give us alms to help. I am certainly
hoping this is the case, and am reaching out to all our friends - those in the
community and those many hundreds of thousands (over a half million people last
year) who read our blog and website. We need monetary help.
>
> We as a people must be worthy of this help, by doing everything to save our
souls, and therefore, having the capacity and ability to reach out to others,
and be a light that is set on a table in McKinney.
>
> Paschal Vespers, tonight, in Dallas, 7:15 PM
>
> Wed - Paschal Liturgy: 6 AM
>
> Wed Vigil for the Annunciation 7 PM
>
> Thu Annunciation Liturgy 8 AM
>
> At this point, we still think we will be moving Thursday, and be in the new
temple this weekend.
>
>
http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/2010/05/11/where-thieves-break-through-and-\
steal-our-ac-has-been-stolen/
>
> --
> Priest Seraphim Holland 972 529-2754 C:972 658-5433
> ST NICHOLAS ORTHODOX CHURCH:http://www.orthodox.net
>
> 2010 "SPONSOR A TREE" Pascha Appeal:
http://www.orthodox.net/aboutus/sponsor-a-tree-pascha-2010.html
>
> PARISH EMAIL:http://groups.google.com/group/saint-nicholas-orthodox-church
> BLOG:http://www.orthodox.net/redeemingthetime
>

"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth
corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:  (20)  But lay up for
yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and
where thieves do not break through nor steal:  (21)  For where your treasure is,
there will your heart be also." (Mat 6:19-21)

We are building a temple for one purpose only - the facilitate the laying up of
treasure in Heaven. The parish temple is a critical part of the life of the
parish.

If we do not pray together, frequently. with compunction and theological
correctness, we are nothing, no matter what else we think we are. All the
services, and especially, preeminently (but never alone, that is the only
service ever celebrated!) the celebration of Divine Liturgy and the partaking of
the "bread from Heaven" is the lifeblood of the parish family.

Our temple is important,and has been quite costly in terms of worldly
measurements. There have been many delays, difficulties, and problems that can
only be understood as part of the attacks of the spirits of the air. We are now
enduring another attack. Although human thieves stole our air conditioning units
in the dead of night yesterday, we must see the spiritual ramifications of this
act of defilement. The thieves defiled themselves by their breaking of God's
law, and may God have mercy on them, and lead them to amend their lives.

How will we react to this stunning setback? To answer correctly, we need only
remember why we are building the temple. It is for the salvation of our souls,
and as we are growing in holiness, the temple will be a place that will shine to
the community, and many others will be warmed by our light, and its light. We
are building the temple primarily to pray, and to preach the Gospel, by our
words and actions.

Let's do this! . We have Paschal Vespers tonight. EVERYONE who is able should
come to pray together. We will sing "Christ is risen", and "Let God arise", and
we will be changed in some invisible, holy way. We should gather as a people
tonight, to worship God, and to beseech His help.

There are practical concerns too, but they are much less important. We have
reported the theft to the police. Most likely it is drug related. The thieves
will trash the units and attempt to sell the copper. We may have another unit in
place today, with security measures. Our insurance may cover some of the cost,
but we have a high deductible. Our builder may have some insurance. The
additional security measures will come our of our pocket.

This is a time of extreme need for us, as a people, since we have no funds
available. Will we react to this setback as Christians do, or will we merely be
angry, or passively disappointed?

Perhaps someone reading this will wish to give us alms to help. I am certainly
hoping this is the case, and am reaching out to all our friends - those in the
community and those many hundreds of thousands (over a half million people last
year) who read our blog and website. We need monetary help.

We as a people must be worthy of this help, by doing everything to save our
souls, and therefore, having the capacity and ability to reach out to others,
and be a light that is set on a table in McKinney.

Paschal Vespers, tonight, in Dallas, 7:15 PM

Wed - Paschal Liturgy: 6 AM

Wed Vigil for the Annunciation 7 PM

Thu Annunciation Liturgy 8 AM

At this point, we still think we will be moving Thursday, and be in the new
temple this weekend.

http://orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/2010/05/11/where-thieves-break-through-and-\
steal-our-ac-has-been-stolen/

--
Priest Seraphim Holland 972 529-2754 C:972 658-5433
ST NICHOLAS ORTHODOX CHURCH:http://www.orthodox.net

2010 "SPONSOR A TREE" Pascha Appeal:
http://www.orthodox.net/aboutus/sponsor-a-tree-pascha-2010.html

PARISH EMAIL:http://groups.google.com/group/saint-nicholas-orthodox-church
BLOG:http://www.orthodox.net/redeemingthetime

Just Curious.

Is there an official Orthodox Christian tradition on spanking children?

George Green
Clifton Park NY

--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "ikonsareholy" <ikonsareholy@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "Al" <aggreen1@> wrote:
> >
> > ***Exception: New Skete near Albany, NY, is a Franciscan monastery of monks
and nuns in the Orthodox Church of America. Formerly eastern rite Roman
Catholic, the order has been allowed to keep its Franciscan identity and to
honor the Roman Catholic saint. This same "order" also has icons of Dorothy Day
(devout R.C. and co-founder of the communist Catholic Worker Movement) and the
Archbishop of Canterbury prominently displayed. Yuk!
> *Xenos* Well this should not happen. Frankly this is when we should tell or
protest to the Bishops to end this. I am not saying non-Orthodox Christians
don't have good points but frankly this is wrong.
> In Christ
> Xenos Mann


***A previous primate of the OCA approved it...something about allowing New
Skete to keep its "traditions".

Al
>

***Check this article on OrthodoxInfo:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/youngchildren.aspx

***Specifically scroll to the section entitled The Service Begins.

Al



--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "cobolsoundsystem" <kharaku@...> wrote:
>
> Just Curious.
>
> Is there an official Orthodox Christian tradition on spanking children?
>
> George Green
> Clifton Park NY
>

The Bible is part of the Tradition of the Church, and it says:

Proverbs 13:24
He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him
promptly.

Proverbs 22:15
Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will
drive it far from him.

Proverbs 23:13
Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will
not die.

Proverbs 23:14
You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell.

Proverbs 29:15
The rod and rebuke give wisdom, But a child left to himself brings shame to his
mother.

--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "cobolsoundsystem" <kharaku@...> wrote:
>
> Just Curious.
>
> Is there an official Orthodox Christian tradition on spanking children?
>
> George Green
> Clifton Park NY
>

*Xenos* Well Fr.John I am for a spanking. I think its aburd for some in our
society to equate it w/extreme physical abuse. But then we wonder when spanking
is not done the children get brave, don't listen & frankly are a pain to all
that have to bear the lack of parental discipline.*
**Now that said I was not the model child. I was excitable at times, had to be
watched over sugar(was addicted to it), bothered my sister (like any good little
brother should). I was spanked, grounded for life I don't recall how many times,
in the corner, lost all priveleges, ate a ton of soap(after a while it doesn't
taste so bad) after my many adventures(getting spanked after my & a friend badly
constructed boat/raft sank in a marsh was funny as we stunk from the marsh that
we had to take a outside hose shower before getting spanked)I knew when I did
something I was gonna pay for it. In fact looking back that may have helped me
not be worse than I was. Of course my mother still calls me sarcastic, rude,
ingrate, etc(of course thats when I am listening, not sure what else she calls
me)& I must say I was surprised my sister asked me to babysit my nephews &
neices(they think I am a great uncle)after I bothered her endlessly from age
3-15(she is 3 years older & got a reprieve by turning 18). But hey the spankings
weren't so bad.
**Of course I still feel bad the time  Istuck my tongue at a priest's 7 year
daughter after services. The little girl of course returned my insult. Her
mother caught her only. So she got stuck in the corner after a swift 2 spank to
the rear. I felt bad so I stood next to her & told the priest & his wife why.
Maybe I will grow up someday?
In Christ
Xenos Mann

--- In orthodox-rocor@yahoogroups.com, "frjohnwhiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@...>
wrote:
>
> The Bible is part of the Tradition of the Church, and it says:
>
> Proverbs 13:24
> He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him
promptly.
>
> Proverbs 22:15
> Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will
drive it far from him.
>
> Proverbs 23:13
> Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he
will not die.
>
> Proverbs 23:14
> You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell.
>
> Proverbs 29:15
> The rod and rebuke give wisdom, But a child left to himself brings shame to
his mother.