Distillers &amp; new_distillers Policy

Gavin,

I own a 12HL (a little less than 300 gallons) brewery and we use a 6000W RIMS tube for our mash tun temp changes. Two things we have solved that have made this possible.

1.) We realized not only did we need to know the temp of the grain bed (mash temp), we also needed to know the temp of our RIMS tube output (rims temp). We were recirculating our wort out of the RIMS back into the mash tun near the top (I think some breweries call this the "vorlauf"). This freshly heated wort would remain at the top of the mash, and only slowly work it's way down until it was replaced by enough hot wort to reach the thermometer. Often overshooting your the mash temp and denaturing the enzymes that were responsible for starch conversion; depending when this occurs, we could end up with significantly less sugar to ferment. We solved this problem by averaging the mash temp and the rims temp. Most PIDs cannot do this, so for a while we used pencil and paper with a manual thermometer on the mash tun and PID (with SSR) on the RIMS tube. After a bit of mucking around we discovered this problem on our 100liter (about 20 gals) system too.

2) we feel like everyone should take good care to have a gentle vorlauf, it will rebuild the grain bed to act as a filter for the husks and whatnot. Clear flowing wort ferments better and leaves less residue in your kettles and fermenters. Low splashing and avoiding wort from channeling through the grain bed will make things much better for in the boil and subsequently whirlpooling, chilling and fermenting.

On Nov 22, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:

Now that's what I have been searching for. a lamens description of what a PID and an SSR does. Thanks

How do the beer brewers do this then, what kind of W heating element do they use? Is it multiple low wattage elements?

To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
From: self.adhesive@...
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 23:48:08 +0000
Subject: [new_distillers] Re: PID Controller

> Cool, great info. I am actually using it for a barley mash process. So if I understand correctly, an SSR performs the same functions as a PID, but better?

No, they're completely different things. The PID is a logic "brain" that attempts according to the parameters you program in to shoot for a particular temperature. It determines how long the element is "on" or "off" and makes adjustments according to results.

SSR stands for Solid State Relay. It's really just an electronic switch - it has no moving parts. It is the equivalent of the contactor but because the contactor has moving parts it is not capable of switching power off and on to the element frequently without destroying itself.

Your PID itself is able to switch loads of up to 3 amps, but this is well short of 2000 Watts. Remember that Watts = Voltage x Amps. Re-arrange this formula to get W/V = A, and depending on what your voltage is this will tell you how many Amps capability you need.

So you employ a contactor, or SSR, to do the heavy-duty switching because these are capable of handling many more amps.

There is one thing to remember with a SSR, and that is if they fail they switch, as far as I understand, to full on and will not turn off. The SSR has its own connection to voltage mains. So, as with all setups like this, you should always supervise operation.

Paul

Reply | Messages in this Topic (28)

#42831

From: <bob@...>
Date: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:53 pm
Subject: Wort are you saying

bobcrowder2001

Fredrick Lee [fredrick@...] >1.) We realized not only did we need to know the temp of the grain bed (mash temp), we also needed to know the temp of our RIMS tube output (rims temp). We were recirculating our wort out of the RIMS back into the mash tun near the top (I think some breweries call this the "vorlauf"). This freshly heated wort would remain at the top of the mash, and only slowly work it's way down until it was replaced by enough hot wort to reach the thermometer. Often overshooting your

Is the heating unit vertical or horizontal? Is there a pump on it?

Bob C

#42832

From: "shark_killah" <eddiegnz1@...>
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:56 am
Subject: Help Build My First Still, Drawing attached

shark_killah

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nt34af9eua6lmwe/drawing2.jpg

please see the drawing of my rough plan for my first still.

Question 1: how do I attach copper pipe or tube to the lid of the SS stock pot ?
Question 2: what size diameter should the pipe be from the main boiler to the thumper?
Question 3: the thumper is also a SS stock pot, should how should I attach the pipe from the boiler to the thumper?
question 4: how do I attach the tube from the thumper to the worm?
question 5: what size diameter should the tube be that attaches to lid on the thumper which goes to the worm?

Question 6: what suggestions do you have based on my drawing.

The drawing might clarify my questions.

thank you brothers !

#42833

From: Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...>
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:31 am
Subject: Re: Wort are you saying

AreoSpike

Our 6kw heater sits inside a small vertical RIMS tube from brewershardware.com

On Nov 26, 2012, at 6:53 PM, <bob@...> wrote:

Fredrick Lee [fredrick@...] >1.) We realized not only did we need to know the temp of the grain bed (mash temp), we also needed to know the temp of our RIMS tube output (rims temp). We were recirculating our wort out of the RIMS back into the mash tun near the top (I think some breweries call this the "vorlauf"). This freshly heated wort would remain at the top of the mash, and only slowly work it's way down until it was replaced by enough hot wort to reach the thermometer. Often overshooting your

Is the heating unit vertical or horizontal? Is there a pump on it?

Bob C

#42834

From: "kekedog13" <kekedog13@...>
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:32 pm
Subject: Re: Help Build My First Still, Drawing attached

kekedog13

To answer #1 & # 3. You can simply drill a hole and get a rubber grommet from a
hardware store, or get fancy and use brass compression fittings. To fit the
compression to a pot lid you can get a coupler and washers . The copper goes
into one side of the coupler , then the middle of it looks like a nut, you put
washers against the nut , this goes on the top, (outside )of the pot lid.On the
inside of the pot lid you will have the threaded other end sticking out. On this
you use more washers and then the other nut part of the coupler, just tighten it
up against the washers to squeeze against the pot lid.This will only work if you
are using copper line of the size that they have compression fittings for of
course.

--- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "shark_killah" <eddiegnz1@...> wrote:
>
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/nt34af9eua6lmwe/drawing2.jpg
> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/nt34af9eua6lmwe/drawing2.jpg>
>
> please see the drawing of my rough plan for my first still.
>
>     1. Question 1: how do I attach copper pipe or tube to the lid of the
> SS stock pot ?
>     2. Question 2: what size diameter should the pipe be from the main
> boiler to the thumper?
>     3. Question 3: the thumper is also a SS stock pot, should how should
> I attach the pipe from the boiler to the thumper?
>     4. question 4: how do I attach the tube from the thumper to the worm?
>     5. question 5: what size diameter should the tube be that attaches to
> lid on the thumper which goes to the worm?
>
> Question 6:  what suggestions do you have based on my drawing.
>
> The drawing might clarify my questions.
>
> thank you brothers !
>
> Ed
>

#42835

From: "air_lock84" <dboogie230@...>
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:03 pm
Subject: Beginner Questions

air_lock84

Hey Guys,
	 I have given distilling a few tries and I'm having some issues that I can't
seem to work out.  My still is constructed out of a stainless stock pot and a
stainless mixing bowl that luckily had the exact same diameter as the pot.  The
rims of each fit perfectly and I just use vice grip pliers to hold them
together.  Out of the top, I have a � inch copper tube going vertical for about
2 inches then goose necking down at about a 70 degree angle.  This leads to my
condenser.  I cut out a small section of the copper leading to my condenser and
replaced it with clear vinyl tubing so I can monitor my output visually.  Also,
I have my thermometer installed right next to where my goose neck connects to
the top of the still.
What I am struggling with is that between 78 C and about 86 C degrees I am
getting little to no output at all.  And if I go any higher than that, I get a
completely cloudy product.  I realize that I am measuring vapor temperatures at
the top instead of liquid temperatures at the bottom.  Is this incorrect? Could
it be the vinyl that is causing the cloudy product or is it the high
temperature?  I thought that the reason I am getting little to no output at
lower temperatures is because my pot is too exposed and not sufficiently
insulated causing too much condensing internally before the vapors can reach my
condenser.  Could this be the problem?
Thanks for your help,
A Newbie

#42836

From: White Bear <sha_man_1@...>
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:19 pm
Subject: Re: Beginner Questions

sha_man_1

"A Newbe"-

You have made basically the identical still as I did with the exception that I have a 4" Stainless steel pot "grease pot" welded over a 3" hole in the upper inverted SS bowl. I use the black spring steel paper clips to hold the two bowls together with aquarium as a gasket between the canning pot and inverted mixing bowl. I use about 2 dozen of these paper clamps to get a good seal. My condenser then exits the side of this smaller pot with a brass compression fitting so it can be removed.

This "pot still" is used only for the stripping run, that is removing ALL the alcohol from the wash to be cut in a smaller still which I can monitor more easily. With basically the exact set up, you may be trying to strip too fast. You should be timing your run to 1 drip per second. This feels quite slow but believe me, it is worth every second.

When you do your cut run, your "cloudyness" will stay in the cut still and you should have a crystle clear, final product.

From: air_lock84 <dboogie230@...>
To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:03 AM
Subject: [new_distillers] Beginner Questions

Hey Guys,
I have given distilling a few tries and I'm having some issues that I can't seem to work out. My still is constructed out of a stainless stock pot and a stainless mixing bowl that luckily had the exact same diameter as the pot. The rims of each fit perfectly and I just use vice grip pliers to hold them together. Out of the top, I have a ½ inch copper tube going vertical for about 2 inches then goose necking down at about a 70 degree angle. This leads to my condenser. I cut out a small section of the copper leading to my condenser and replaced it with clear vinyl tubing so I can monitor my output visually. Also, I have my thermometer installed right next to where my goose neck connects to the top of the still.
What I am struggling with is that between 78 C and about 86 C degrees I am getting little to no output at all. And if I go any higher than that, I get a completely cloudy product. I realize that I am measuring vapor temperatures at the top instead of liquid temperatures at the bottom. Is this incorrect? Could it be the vinyl that is causing the cloudy product or is it the high temperature? I thought that the reason I am getting little to no output at lower temperatures is because my pot is too exposed and not sufficiently insulated causing too much condensing internally before the vapors can reach my condenser. Could this be the problem?
Thanks for your help,
A Newbie

#42837

From: "PCBUILDERCHRIS" <pcbuilderchris@...>
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2012 1:11 am
Subject: NEW to distilling need help...Video idea..

pcbuilderchris

I'm new to the whole idea of making my own swill...(and cant wait to learn)

I'd like for someone to make a video or two of what we newbs would need to get
started...even though i am a brown drinker i hear vodka is the easiest to make
as it requires no aging...

Whomever is capable of making a video please do so... I'll host these tutorial
vids on my server for others to view anytime...make a video detailing the
process and items/ingredients we would need to get started...I don't know if
what we do is considered illegal so if you can please blur or don't show your
face in the vids...

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)

#42838

From: "Mark" <mark.macayan@...>
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2012 2:48 am
Subject: Welcome from a New Guy

mkbmacayan

Hi everyone and Happy Holidays!

I was doing some online research about still designs and saw a reference to this
user group.  Being a novice distiller I am looking for all sorts of advice from
those with more experience and knew this was a good place to start.

Anyways, I was researching building my first still and read a lot of positive
feedback about the Bokabob mini-still setup.  I just have a few questions before
I get started.  Questions which I expect have been asked by other novices on
this very group.  I guess I have a lot of reading to do! :)

With that I had better put my reading glasses on and start searching.

Mac

#42839

From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2012 8:45 am
Subject: File - Group-Policy.html

new_distillers@yahoogroups.com

Example #1 - Acceptable:

Distillers & new_distillers Policy

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Reply | Messages in this Topic (71)

#42840

From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2012 8:45 am
Subject: File - Welcome All new Members - and How to

new_distillers@yahoogroups.com

Welcome all New Members,

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window at the top of this screen, or entering the actual message
number (also review Advanced Search Options).

The Files, Photos, Links and Database Sections are at the left of
this screen, and contain many resources available to members.

These include Links to the New Distiller's "Wiki" style Information
Base with topics related to Fermentation and Distilling.

In addition, you should consider reading through Tony Ackland's
Homedistillers site at: http://homedistiller.org/  This contains all
the information needed to start off.  Another great resource is Harry
Jackson's (the Owner of these sites) "The Alcohol Library", which contains
many books and articles on the topics of Distillation.  See:
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The Database section contains the Information base with a quick
search by key word. Just copy and paste the link to your
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This Information base relies on Members to expand the contents by
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Reply | Messages in this Topic (26)

#42841

From: TODP <danimae@...>
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2012 1:45 pm
Subject: RE: NEW to distilling need help...Video idea..

cd_caron

Do your research.. YouTube is a wonderful thing! There are literally THOUSANDS of videos out about the whole process already!! JUST GOOGLE A SEARCH!

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 8:11 PM, PCBUILDERCHRIS wrote:

I'm new to the whole idea of making my own swill...(and cant wait to learn)

I'd like for someone to make a video or two of what we newbs would need to get started...even though i am a brown drinker i hear vodka is the easiest to make as it requires no aging...

Whomever is capable of making a video please do so... I'll host these tutorial vids on my server for others to view anytime...make a video detailing the process and items/ingredients we would need to get started...I don't know if what we do is considered illegal so if you can please blur or don't show your face in the vids...

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)

#42842

From: "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...>
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2012 10:22 pm
Subject: Re: Beginner Questions

tgfoitwoods

Airlock,

It sounds like you have two separate problems, or more accurately one
misconception and one problem.

First off, the misconception. To make the still work, you must boil the
liquid in the boiler, and the temperature at which that liquid boils
(assuming an ethanol/water mixture, which is close to what we have) is
determined solely by the percentage of ethanol in that mixture. If your
boiler were filled with pure ethanol, it would boil at ~78C, and you
would get distillate coming over at that head temperature (ignoring
small heat losses from your wash to you thermometer location).

Because you wash is almost certainly not pure ethanol, you should not
expect the wash to boil as low as 78C. For example, if your wash was 10%
ABV (a realistic number), then you should not expect it to boil until it
reaches ~93C, so at 93C, you should start seeing distillate.

Here's a link to a chart that relates wash ABV to boiling temperature
(the blue line) and vapor ABV to wash boiling temperature (the red
line).
http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif

If you really were getting distillate at 86C, this chart tells me that
your wash should be 29%ABV, which is probably too high for a simple
fermented wash.

So long story short, you should see distillation (for a fermented wash)
start at a head temperature of 91-95%ABV, and then slowly approach 100C
as a limit.

As for the cloudiness, unless you had puking through the condenser, I'd
say that vinyl tubing is probably teh problem. From my experience, it
will also make the distillate taste bad, to some extent.
--- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "air_lock84" <dboogie230@...>
wrote:
>
> Hey Guys,
>  I have given distilling a few tries and I'm having some issues that I
can't seem to work out.  My still is constructed out of a stainless
stock pot and a stainless mixing bowl that luckily had the exact same
diameter as the pot.  The rims of each fit perfectly and I just use vice
grip pliers to hold them together.  Out of the top, I have a � inch
copper tube going vertical for about 2 inches then goose necking down at
about a 70 degree angle.  This leads to my condenser.  I cut out a small
section of the copper leading to my condenser and replaced it with clear
vinyl tubing so I can monitor my output visually.  Also, I have my
thermometer installed right next to where my goose neck connects to the
top of the still.
> What I am struggling with is that between 78 C and about 86 C degrees
I am getting little to no output at all.  And if I go any higher than
that, I get a completely cloudy product.  I realize that I am measuring
vapor temperatures at the top instead of liquid temperatures at the
bottom.  Is this incorrect? Could it be the vinyl that is causing the
cloudy product or is it the high temperature?  I thought that the reason
I am getting little to no output at lower temperatures is because my pot
is too exposed and not sufficiently insulated causing too much
condensing internally before the vapors can reach my condenser.  Could
this be the problem?
> Thanks for your help,
> A Newbie
>

#42843

From: "mav" <mavnkaf@...>
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2012 6:46 am
Subject: Re: NEW to distilling need help...Video idea..

mavnkaf

If you want a video look on youtube or google neutral spirits product or GSN
spirits

Cheers
marc

--- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "PCBUILDERCHRIS" <pcbuilderchris@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm new to the whole idea of making my own swill...(and cant wait to learn)
>
> I'd like for someone to make a video or two of what we newbs would need to get
started...even though i am a brown drinker i hear vodka is the easiest to make
as it requires no aging...
>
> Whomever is capable of making a video please do so... I'll host these tutorial
vids on my server for others to view anytime...make a video detailing the
process and items/ingredients we would need to get started...I don't know if
what we do is considered illegal so if you can please blur or don't show your
face in the vids...
>

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)

#42844

From: "andyrud3" <andyrud@...>
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2012 6:54 pm
Subject: Re: Beginner Questions

andyrud3

--- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
>Special thanks for that information tgfoitwoods, my still would never start
dripping at the temperatures the books said it should.  I always needed to
increase the temp more in order to get it to start producing.  I always worried
my still wasn't working right.  Your explanation was great!!

Thanks again,

Andy


> Airlock,
>
> It sounds like you have two separate problems, or more accurately one
> misconception and one problem.
>
> First off, the misconception. To make the still work, you must boil the
> liquid in the boiler, and the temperature at which that liquid boils
> (assuming an ethanol/water mixture, which is close to what we have) is
> determined solely by the percentage of ethanol in that mixture. If your
> boiler were filled with pure ethanol, it would boil at ~78C, and you
> would get distillate coming over at that head temperature (ignoring
> small heat losses from your wash to you thermometer location).
>
> Because you wash is almost certainly not pure ethanol, you should not
> expect the wash to boil as low as 78C. For example, if your wash was 10%
> ABV (a realistic number), then you should not expect it to boil until it
> reaches ~93C, so at 93C, you should start seeing distillate.
>
> Here's a link to a chart that relates wash ABV to boiling temperature
> (the blue line) and vapor ABV to wash boiling temperature (the red
> line).
> http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif
>
> If you really were getting distillate at 86C, this chart tells me that
> your wash should be 29%ABV, which is probably too high for a simple
> fermented wash.
>
> So long story short, you should see distillation (for a fermented wash)
> start at a head temperature of 91-95%ABV, and then slowly approach 100C
> as a limit.
>
> As for the cloudiness, unless you had puking through the condenser, I'd
> say that vinyl tubing is probably teh problem. From my experience, it
> will also make the distillate taste bad, to some extent.
> --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "air_lock84" <dboogie230@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Guys,
> >  I have given distilling a few tries and I'm having some issues that I
> can't seem to work out.  My still is constructed out of a stainless
> stock pot and a stainless mixing bowl that luckily had the exact same
> diameter as the pot.  The rims of each fit perfectly and I just use vice
> grip pliers to hold them together.  Out of the top, I have a � inch
> copper tube going vertical for about 2 inches then goose necking down at
> about a 70 degree angle.  This leads to my condenser.  I cut out a small
> section of the copper leading to my condenser and replaced it with clear
> vinyl tubing so I can monitor my output visually.  Also, I have my
> thermometer installed right next to where my goose neck connects to the
> top of the still.
> > What I am struggling with is that between 78 C and about 86 C degrees
> I am getting little to no output at all.  And if I go any higher than
> that, I get a completely cloudy product.  I realize that I am measuring
> vapor temperatures at the top instead of liquid temperatures at the
> bottom.  Is this incorrect? Could it be the vinyl that is causing the
> cloudy product or is it the high temperature?  I thought that the reason
> I am getting little to no output at lower temperatures is because my pot
> is too exposed and not sufficiently insulated causing too much
> condensing internally before the vapors can reach my condenser.  Could
> this be the problem?
> > Thanks for your help,
> > A Newbie
> >
>

#42845

From: "ballard_bootlegger" <meriwetherdistilleries@...>
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2012 7:59 pm
Subject: Re: Beginner Questions

ballard_boot...

Hey Noob,
You seem to be doing what you need to for a basic distillation.  Do you know the
ABV of your wash?  Often times at the end of the run or if for some reason your
wash is short on alcohol you won't get much at the lower distillation temps.
When you raise the temp to allow less volatile compounds to boil they may come
through as cloudy or murky.  I'd put my money on a lack of ethanol in the wash.
Also I'd say get rid of that vinyl tubing as high alcohol, especially when warm,
will eat right through that and you'll have a synthetic taste in your
distillate.  Stick to silicone or nitrile if available.  If not, go with an FDA
approved beer line from your local home brew shop or one of the great websites
that are out there.

Good luck and drink well!
W.

#42846

From: "ballard_bootlegger" <meriwetherdistilleries@...>
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2012 8:02 pm
Subject: Re: Welcome from a New Guy

ballard_boot...

Welcome!  Feel free to throw out any questions that you come up with during your
research.

Drink Well,
W.

#42847

From: "Buster" <buster_hawk1@...>
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2012 3:58 pm
Subject: Pics

buster_hawk1

I have'nt been to this group in almost 10yrs and I gotta say alot of people in
this group have some talent and Thank you for sharing your pics...I no longer
drink, I still like to make shine and simply hand it out as gifts.

#42848

From: "tehiru.chalal" <tehiru.chalal@...>
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2012 5:17 am
Subject: Hello from a New Member

tehiru.chalal

Hi there! I am Michael, and I am just getting started on this hobby. I am
recently retired, and possess enough basic soldering and brazing skills that I
am confident that I can get a nice copper still (reflux, probably single batch
as compared to continuous). Probably like everyone else!

So I guess I should start with a still. I have not looked through all the files,
but I hope to find a nice design for a copper still. I am hoping for a 1.5" or
2" tower. Anyone know where I can get a design as a .pdf or a .jpg that has all
dimensions shown and so forth so I can go buy copper and fittings and get to
work?

Reply | Messages in this Topic (4)

#42849

From: "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...>
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2012 5:42 pm
Subject: Re: Hello from a New Member

tgfoitwoods

tehiru.chalal,

If you are certain you want to build a reflux still, here are good instruction for one of the most common and respected reflux still, the Bokakob Dual Slat-plate Still.
http://wiki.homedistiller.org/Boka_Reflux_Still_-_How_To_Build

Just to double-check, you should know that reflux stills like this are primarily designed to produce the ethanol-water azeotrope, 96.6% ethanol, a kind of super vodka, which can be diluted with water to make flavorless vodka. If it is your goal to make full-flavored whiskeys, brandies, and rums it makes more sense (to me at least) to use the kind of still that the best of these liquors is traditionally made with, the potstill.

If you should decide upon a potstill with a copper plumbing-fitting head, I describe building a couple in great detail in my book "Making Fine Spirits" (Amphora Society), available at Amazon.com or at
http://www.kelleybarts.com/zymurgy-bob-books/making-fine-spirits/
You can see a photo of the 5-gallon version and part of that same head on the 16-gallon keg version at
http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/5GallonSmall.jpg
and
http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/16GallonCenter.jpg

By the way, 'stilling is a great way to spend a retirement!

Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

--- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tehiru.chalal" <tehiru.chalal@...> wrote:
>
> Hi there! I am Michael, and I am just getting started on this hobby. I am recently retired, and possess enough basic soldering and brazing skills that I am confident that I can get a nice copper still (reflux, probably single batch as compared to continuous). Probably like everyone else!
>
> So I guess I should start with a still. I have not looked through all the files, but I hope to find a nice design for a copper still. I am hoping for a 1.5" or 2" tower. Anyone know where I can get a design as a .pdf or a .jpg that has all dimensions shown and so forth so I can go buy copper and fittings and get to work?
>

Reply | Messages in this Topic (4)

#42850

From: "air_lock84" <dboogie230@...>
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2012 6:22 pm
Subject: Re: Beginner Questions

air_lock84

tgfoitwoods,
Thanks for all the info and the chart.  I always heard to run your wash as low
and slow as possible but never took into consideration that the water and other
liquids in the wash would absorb some of that heat causing me to run things
hotter. You are correct. I usually can ferment up to about 10%.  I'm just doing
a simple brown sugar wash right now to learn.  I live in Louisiana and some
friends of mine are sugarcane farmers and get me large quantities of raw sugar
for free.  I'm still trying to figure out my best ratio for the fermentation
process as well.
      I've been using 10lbs of sugar and 5 gallons of water but only using 1/2 of
a pack of alcotec 48 hour turbo yeast.  Since i only have 5 gallon buckets, i
noticed when i use a full pack, i will get wash coming through my airlock. I
should be getting some 6 gallon buckets soon which should give me more room
between the surface level and the lid.  Hopefully this will stop the mess that i
am making.  Should i be using any more or less sugar?
I also wanted to ask what puking is?  You said this could be happening in my
condenser.  I'm not sure if this is the case but i figured it is still something
i should know about and keep and eye on.

--- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
>
> Airlock,
>
> It sounds like you have two separate problems, or more accurately one
> misconception and one problem.
>
> First off, the misconception. To make the still work, you must boil the
> liquid in the boiler, and the temperature at which that liquid boils
> (assuming an ethanol/water mixture, which is close to what we have) is
> determined solely by the percentage of ethanol in that mixture. If your
> boiler were filled with pure ethanol, it would boil at ~78C, and you
> would get distillate coming over at that head temperature (ignoring
> small heat losses from your wash to you thermometer location).
>
> Because you wash is almost certainly not pure ethanol, you should not
> expect the wash to boil as low as 78C. For example, if your wash was 10%
> ABV (a realistic number), then you should not expect it to boil until it
> reaches ~93C, so at 93C, you should start seeing distillate.
>
> Here's a link to a chart that relates wash ABV to boiling temperature
> (the blue line) and vapor ABV to wash boiling temperature (the red
> line).
> http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif
>
> If you really were getting distillate at 86C, this chart tells me that
> your wash should be 29%ABV, which is probably too high for a simple
> fermented wash.
>
> So long story short, you should see distillation (for a fermented wash)
> start at a head temperature of 91-95%ABV, and then slowly approach 100C
> as a limit.
>
> As for the cloudiness, unless you had puking through the condenser, I'd
> say that vinyl tubing is probably teh problem. From my experience, it
> will also make the distillate taste bad, to some extent.
> --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "air_lock84" <dboogie230@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Guys,
> >  I have given distilling a few tries and I'm having some issues that I
> can't seem to work out.  My still is constructed out of a stainless
> stock pot and a stainless mixing bowl that luckily had the exact same
> diameter as the pot.  The rims of each fit perfectly and I just use vice
> grip pliers to hold them together.  Out of the top, I have a � inch
> copper tube going vertical for about 2 inches then goose necking down at
> about a 70 degree angle.  This leads to my condenser.  I cut out a small
> section of the copper leading to my condenser and replaced it with clear
> vinyl tubing so I can monitor my output visually.  Also, I have my
> thermometer installed right next to where my goose neck connects to the
> top of the still.
> > What I am struggling with is that between 78 C and about 86 C degrees
> I am getting little to no output at all.  And if I go any higher than
> that, I get a completely cloudy product.  I realize that I am measuring
> vapor temperatures at the top instead of liquid temperatures at the
> bottom.  Is this incorrect? Could it be the vinyl that is causing the
> cloudy product or is it the high temperature?  I thought that the reason
> I am getting little to no output at lower temperatures is because my pot
> is too exposed and not sufficiently insulated causing too much
> condensing internally before the vapors can reach my condenser.  Could
> this be the problem?
> > Thanks for your help,
> > A Newbie
> >
>

#42851

From: "air_lock84" <dboogie230@...>
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2012 6:26 pm
Subject: Re: Beginner Questions

air_lock84

Will the FDA approved beer lines hold up at those temperatures?  To be honest i
use the tubing not only to visually monitor output, but it gives me a very
simple way to connect my still to my condenser without using any soldering or
compression fittings.

--- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "ballard_bootlegger"
<meriwetherdistilleries@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Noob,
> You seem to be doing what you need to for a basic distillation.  Do you know
the ABV of your wash?  Often times at the end of the run or if for some reason
your wash is short on alcohol you won't get much at the lower distillation
temps. When you raise the temp to allow less volatile compounds to boil they may
come through as cloudy or murky.  I'd put my money on a lack of ethanol in the
wash. Also I'd say get rid of that vinyl tubing as high alcohol, especially when
warm, will eat right through that and you'll have a synthetic taste in your
distillate.  Stick to silicone or nitrile if available.  If not, go with an FDA
approved beer line from your local home brew shop or one of the great websites
that are out there.
>
> Good luck and drink well!
> W.
>

#42852

From: "GGB" <self.adhesive@...>
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2012 8:41 pm
Subject: Re: Beginner Questions

girlguidebis...

"tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote: "It sounds like you have two separate
problems, or more accurately one misconception and one problem."

ZB, thank you for that explanation. May I add a question of my own please, as a
rank beginner?

I have a 50-litre keg, which must be about 13+ USG, which I thought I'd "make
into a still."

But if I stick to 20 litre washes, the still will be 3/5 empty for a stripping
run. Then if my wash is 16% and my stripping run produces 70% ABV, that only
gives me 5L to distill on the second run ie the still will be 9/10 empty.

Do others come up against these choices? I'm not much of a drinker but like the
chemistry and physics involved, so it looks like I will have to find a smaller
boiler.

What would you recommend in the way of boiler size?

At the same time I have assembled materials to make a three-foot reflux still
but from what you are saying that seems to be overkill if a pot still is the
best way to start out.

Some of the literature talks about managing a reflux tower to make cuts and do
the same work as a pot still. Any comments along these lines also please?

Much obliged for your time and thoughts.
Paul

#42853

From: John Brase <jbrase@...>
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2012 9:38 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Beginner Questions

jbrase2000

GGB, keep the boiler you have. It is the perfect size.
1. Make two 20 liter washes. Combine them for your strip run. On the strip run collect everything down to 15-20%. You will probably end up with maybe 12 liters of low wines at around 40%. Set it aside.
2. Do step 1 again. Combine the low wines from strips 1 and 2. If necessary, dilute to under 40% ( I prefer 28-30% myself). Put the diluted low wines in your boiler and do the spirit run.
The quality of your end product will be better if you keep your wash around 12% or less. Above that percentage the yeast gets stressed and that affects the quality of the finished spirit.

On 12/3/2012 3:41 PM, GGB wrote:

"tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote: "It sounds like you have two separate problems, or more accurately one misconception and one problem."

ZB, thank you for that explanation. May I add a question of my own please, as a rank beginner?

I have a 50-litre keg, which must be about 13+ USG, which I thought I'd "make into a still."

But if I stick to 20 litre washes, the still will be 3/5 empty for a stripping run. Then if my wash is 16% and my stripping run produces 70% ABV, that only gives me 5L to distill on the second run ie the still will be 9/10 empty.

Do others come up against these choices? I'm not much of a drinker but like the chemistry and physics involved, so it looks like I will have to find a smaller boiler.

What would you recommend in the way of boiler size?

At the same time I have assembled materials to make a three-foot reflux still but from what you are saying that seems to be overkill if a pot still is the best way to start out.

Some of the literature talks about managing a reflux tower to make cuts and do the same work as a pot still. Any comments along these lines also please?

Much obliged for your time and thoughts.
Paul

#42854

From: "derick881" <derick881@...>
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2012 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: Beginner Questions

derick881

There are three things that strike me about your still design that could contribute to your milky distillate problem.

#1 is the short vertical leg coming off the top of your still. This could make it easier for solids to "puke" over and make it into the condensing leg.

#2 the 1/2" diameter of your short vertical leg will increase the velocity of the vapors allowing for more carry over of solids.

#3 If you are having to raise the temperature of your wash to a higher that desirable level this will also raise the level of boiling inside the kettle and contribute to carry over problems. Experienced distillers always preach Low and Slow to achieve the best product.

--- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "andyrud3" <andyrud@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" zymurgybob@ wrote:
> >Special thanks for that information tgfoitwoods, my still would never start dripping at the temperatures the books said it should. I always needed to increase the temp more in order to get it to start producing. I always worried my still wasn't working right. Your explanation was great!!
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Andy
>
>
> > Airlock,
> >
> > It sounds like you have two separate problems, or more accurately one
> > misconception and one problem.
> >
> > First off, the misconception. To make the still work, you must boil the
> > liquid in the boiler, and the temperature at which that liquid boils
> > (assuming an ethanol/water mixture, which is close to what we have) is
> > determined solely by the percentage of ethanol in that mixture. If your
> > boiler were filled with pure ethanol, it would boil at ~78C, and you
> > would get distillate coming over at that head temperature (ignoring
> > small heat losses from your wash to you thermometer location).
> >
> > Because you wash is almost certainly not pure ethanol, you should not
> > expect the wash to boil as low as 78C. For example, if your wash was 10%
> > ABV (a realistic number), then you should not expect it to boil until it
> > reaches ~93C, so at 93C, you should start seeing distillate.
> >
> > Here's a link to a chart that relates wash ABV to boiling temperature
> > (the blue line) and vapor ABV to wash boiling temperature (the red
> > line).
> > http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif
> >
> > If you really were getting distillate at 86C, this chart tells me that
> > your wash should be 29%ABV, which is probably too high for a simple
> > fermented wash.
> >
> > So long story short, you should see distillation (for a fermented wash)
> > start at a head temperature of 91-95%ABV, and then slowly approach 100C
> > as a limit.
> >
> > As for the cloudiness, unless you had puking through the condenser, I'd
> > say that vinyl tubing is probably teh problem. From my experience, it
> > will also make the distillate taste bad, to some extent.
> > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "air_lock84" <dboogie230@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey Guys,
> > > I have given distilling a few tries and I'm having some issues that I
> > can't seem to work out. My still is constructed out of a stainless
> > stock pot and a stainless mixing bowl that luckily had the exact same
> > diameter as the pot. The rims of each fit perfectly and I just use vice
> > grip pliers to hold them together. Out of the top, I have a � inch
> > copper tube going vertical for about 2 inches then goose necking down at
> > about a 70 degree angle. This leads to my condenser. I cut out a small
> > section of the copper leading to my condenser and replaced it with clear
> > vinyl tubing so I can monitor my output visually. Also, I have my
> > thermometer installed right next to where my goose neck connects to the
> > top of the still.
> > > What I am struggling with is that between 78 C and about 86 C degrees
> > I am getting little to no output at all. And if I go any higher than
> > that, I get a completely cloudy product. I realize that I am measuring
> > vapor temperatures at the top instead of liquid temperatures at the
> > bottom. Is this incorrect? Could it be the vinyl that is causing the
> > cloudy product or is it the high temperature? I thought that the reason
> > I am getting little to no output at lower temperatures is because my pot
> > is too exposed and not sufficiently insulated causing too much
> > condensing internally before the vapors can reach my condenser. Could
> > this be the problem?
> > > Thanks for your help,
> > > A Newbie
> > >
> >
>

#42855

From: "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...>
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2012 4:41 am
Subject: Re: Beginner Questions

tgfoitwoods

You're very welcome, Paul.

As for your still-filling questions, a couple of things. On a strip run, I usually keep distilling until my total aggregate ABV is roughly 50%. It's not that that number is important in itself, but in flavored spirits, often much of the flavor is way into the tails, so when stripping, I collect a lot of tails. I stop stripping at 98C or 99C head temperature. I understand that this alone won't solve you problem, so let me tell you what most/many of us do.

We will strip 3 or 4 batches, add all the low wines together, dilute the resulting low wines to ~27% ABV (for maximum flavor extraction) and then do a spirit run with those collected low wines. You'll get a nice slow progression of the fractions with all that ethanol in the boiler, so you'll have plenty of time to separate the fractions for later cut-making.

I'll admit I've not done it, but some stillers recommend building a reflux still, which is designed to remove all the flavor, and then cripple it by pulling out packing and dialing the reflux ratio way down, so they can get most of the flavor of a potstill. To my crooked thinking, this seems like buying a Formula 1 Lotus, and pulling most of the sparkplugs out so you can drive it in the supermarket parking lot.

Looking at it the other way, many commercial whiskey distillers use plates and column stills to produce their main whiskeys, but for the highest price, they'll sell you the best stuff...distilled on potstills. And the best Scotch whisky makers don't even bother with anything but potstills. I've held some blind tasting bourbon evaluations, and one of my bourbons beat out all but one of 6 well-known, high-end bourbons, all produced on column reflux stills. For full-flavored whiskeys, rums, and brandies, I won't say it's impossible to match a potstill, but except for saving time and money and increasing production, I always figured, why bother?

I'm not interested in any of that stuff, just making the best sipping liquor I can.

Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
--- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "GGB" <self.adhesive@...> wrote:
>
> "tgfoitwoods" zymurgybob@ wrote: "It sounds like you have two separate problems, or more accurately one misconception and one problem."
>
> ZB, thank you for that explanation. May I add a question of my own please, as a rank beginner?
>
> I have a 50-litre keg, which must be about 13+ USG, which I thought I'd "make into a still."
>
> But if I stick to 20 litre washes, the still will be 3/5 empty for a stripping run. Then if my wash is 16% and my stripping run produces 70% ABV, that only gives me 5L to distill on the second run ie the still will be 9/10 empty.
>
> Do others come up against these choices? I'm not much of a drinker but like the chemistry and physics involved, so it looks like I will have to find a smaller boiler.
>
> What would you recommend in the way of boiler size?
>
> At the same time I have assembled materials to make a three-foot reflux still but from what you are saying that seems to be overkill if a pot still is the best way to start out.
>
> Some of the literature talks about managing a reflux tower to make cuts and do the same work as a pot still. Any comments along these lines also please?
>
> Much obliged for your time and thoughts.
> Paul
>

#42856

From: "air_lock84" <dboogie230@...>
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2012 5:47 pm
Subject: Re: Beginner Questions

air_lock84

How high should the vertical leg rise before the bend is made?  And what
diameter should i go up to for reducing velocity?

I also picked up a compression coupling to replace the clear tube in case that
is why i have a cloudy product or if it produces some unwanted flavors.





--- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "derick881" <derick881@...> wrote:
>
> There are three things that strike me about your still design that could
> contribute to your milky distillate problem.  #1 is the short vertical
> leg coming off the top of your still.  This could make it easier for
> solids to "puke" over and make it into the condensing leg. #2  the 1/2"
> diameter of your short vertical leg will increase the velocity of the
> vapors allowing for more carry over of solids.#3  If you are having to
> raise the temperature of your wash to a higher that desirable level this
> will also raise the level of boiling inside the kettle  and contribute
> to carry over problems.  Experienced distillers always preach Low and
> Slow to achieve the best product.
> --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "andyrud3" <andyrud@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" zymurgybob@
> wrote:
> > >Special thanks for that information tgfoitwoods, my still would never
> start dripping at the temperatures the books said it should.  I always
> needed to increase the temp more in order to get it to start producing.
> I always worried my still wasn't working right.  Your explanation was
> great!!
> >
> > Thanks again,
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> > > Airlock,
> > >
> > > It sounds like you have two separate problems, or more accurately
> one
> > > misconception and one problem.
> > >
> > > First off, the misconception. To make the still work, you must boil
> the
> > > liquid in the boiler, and the temperature at which that liquid boils
> > > (assuming an ethanol/water mixture, which is close to what we have)
> is
> > > determined solely by the percentage of ethanol in that mixture. If
> your
> > > boiler were filled with pure ethanol, it would boil at ~78C, and you
> > > would get distillate coming over at that head temperature (ignoring
> > > small heat losses from your wash to you thermometer location).
> > >
> > > Because you wash is almost certainly not pure ethanol, you should
> not
> > > expect the wash to boil as low as 78C. For example, if your wash was
> 10%
> > > ABV (a realistic number), then you should not expect it to boil
> until it
> > > reaches ~93C, so at 93C, you should start seeing distillate.
> > >
> > > Here's a link to a chart that relates wash ABV to boiling
> temperature
> > > (the blue line) and vapor ABV to wash boiling temperature (the red
> > > line).
> > > http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif
> > >
> > > If you really were getting distillate at 86C, this chart tells me
> that
> > > your wash should be 29%ABV, which is probably too high for a simple
> > > fermented wash.
> > >
> > > So long story short, you should see distillation (for a fermented
> wash)
> > > start at a head temperature of 91-95%ABV, and then slowly approach
> 100C
> > > as a limit.
> > >
> > > As for the cloudiness, unless you had puking through the condenser,
> I'd
> > > say that vinyl tubing is probably teh problem. From my experience,
> it
> > > will also make the distillate taste bad, to some extent.
> > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "air_lock84" <dboogie230@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hey Guys,
> > > >  I have given distilling a few tries and I'm having some issues
> that I
> > > can't seem to work out.  My still is constructed out of a stainless
> > > stock pot and a stainless mixing bowl that luckily had the exact
> same
> > > diameter as the pot.  The rims of each fit perfectly and I just use
> vice
> > > grip pliers to hold them together.  Out of the top, I have a �
> inch
> > > copper tube going vertical for about 2 inches then goose necking
> down at
> > > about a 70 degree angle.  This leads to my condenser.  I cut out a
> small
> > > section of the copper leading to my condenser and replaced it with
> clear
> > > vinyl tubing so I can monitor my output visually.  Also, I have my
> > > thermometer installed right next to where my goose neck connects to
> the
> > > top of the still.
> > > > What I am struggling with is that between 78 C and about 86 C
> degrees
> > > I am getting little to no output at all.  And if I go any higher
> than
> > > that, I get a completely cloudy product.  I realize that I am
> measuring
> > > vapor temperatures at the top instead of liquid temperatures at the
> > > bottom.  Is this incorrect? Could it be the vinyl that is causing
> the
> > > cloudy product or is it the high temperature?  I thought that the
> reason
> > > I am getting little to no output at lower temperatures is because my
> pot
> > > is too exposed and not sufficiently insulated causing too much
> > > condensing internally before the vapors can reach my condenser.
> Could
> > > this be the problem?
> > > > Thanks for your help,
> > > > A Newbie
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

#42857

From: M L <kekedog13@...>
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2012 6:36 am
Subject: Re: Re: Beginner Questions

kekedog13

I also use short pieces of clear tubing and hose clamps to connect copper lines, I butt them together so there is little or no contact with the alcohol as it flows through it.

--- On Mon, 12/3/12, air_lock84 <dboogie230@...> wrote:

From: air_lock84 <dboogie230@...>
Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Beginner Questions
To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 3, 2012, 10:26 AM

Will the FDA approved beer lines hold up at those temperatures? To be honest i use the tubing not only to visually monitor output, but it gives me a very simple way to connect my still to my condenser without using any soldering or compression fittings.

--- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "ballard_bootlegger" <meriwetherdistilleries@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Noob,
> You seem to be doing what you need to for a basic distillation. Do you know the ABV of your wash? Often times at the end of the run or if for some reason your wash is short on alcohol you won't get much at the lower distillation temps. When you raise the temp to allow less volatile compounds to boil they may come through as cloudy or murky. I'd put my money on a lack of ethanol in the wash. Also I'd say get rid of that vinyl tubing as high alcohol, especially when warm, will eat right through that and you'll have a synthetic taste in your distillate. Stick to silicone or nitrile if available. If not, go with an FDA approved beer line from your local home brew shop or one of the great websites that are out there.
>
> Good luck and drink well!
> W.
>

#42858

From: "GGB" <self.adhesive@...>
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2012 8:59 pm
Subject: Re: Beginner Questions

girlguidebis...

Thank you John Brase and Zymurgy Bob for your comments.

I have picked up a 25 litre keg so maybe that will do away with the need to
double up on batches.

I had thought that getting spirit as pure as possible would be the holy grail of
distilling, but not so, it seems. Home brew shops here sell a lot of essences to
flavour up clear spirit, that would seem to be cheating but convenient. I had
read that pure spirit excludes a lot of the congeners that cause hangovers and
perhaps that was why it seemed best to aim for pure spirit.

Bob, in respect of your explanation about vapour temperatures. - I understood
that at sea level as long as ethanol was the primary vapour it would evaporate
or boil at 78*C no matter what the pot temperature. I'll have to watch what
happens when I finally do my strip run.

Best regards
Paul